0:00

When I graduated high school, I was

0:02

pretty set against going to traditional college. I

0:04

knew it was what I was supposed to do,

0:06

but a lot of my peers were drowning

0:08

in student debt and signing their lives away

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discipleship are central aspects of life at Excel,

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and I knew I wanted to be part

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of a community that would encourage my faith

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in the Lord. My name is Cassidy Salice,

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and I graduated debt-free in 2023, with a

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up for an informational call. That's

1:00

the Excel college.com/visit. Welcome to

1:02

the One Thousand Hours Outside

1:04

podcast. My name is Ginnyer,

1:06

I'm the founder of One

1:08

Thousand Hours Outside. And back

1:10

today! I'm so excited! The

1:12

most random situation we met in

1:14

Moaf Utah on a summer! Literally

1:17

a Humvee. What a statement. You

1:19

know, it's not that random because

1:21

you are spending your life outside.

1:23

So it's bound to happen. Yeah,

1:25

and so are you. And so are

1:27

you. I was so impressed. There couldn't

1:30

be a more appropriate place to me,

1:32

actually. Also, what a great story. Like,

1:34

oh yeah, we were on the side

1:36

of the devil's revenge in a Humvee.

1:39

You were screaming out in tongues, as

1:41

I recall, over and over again. Yes, and

1:43

I think back on it. And it was

1:45

just a unique experience because I think you

1:47

introduce yourself as maybe an author or an

1:49

author in a podcaster and then Lennox said

1:51

something like well yeah he's only written nine books

1:54

or only whatever. Yeah he said it like like

1:56

he was ashamed of me yeah well there's only

1:58

written eight books you know he just try very

2:00

hard. He's underachiever, you know. And

2:02

we didn't get into any specifics at all.

2:05

And then you said, well, the book I

2:07

have coming out is Marvel at the moon.

2:09

And I was like, oh, I have a

2:11

podcast about getting outside. And so it just

2:14

really has been an amazing thing. I've talked

2:16

to Jenny too. And now we're Besties.

2:18

We're Besties. I have two copies of the

2:20

fight to flourish because I bought one for

2:22

myself and then she so graciously sent me.

2:24

a hardcover copy and it's wrapped Levi in

2:26

this like gorgeous green bow. It's pretty much

2:28

the nicest bow I've ever seen and so

2:31

it just sits on myself with the bow

2:33

on it. I love it. Jenny's love language

2:35

is wrapping paper so she's all about she would

2:37

be happy to hear that. She loves wrapping things.

2:39

It's so gorgeous that I didn't even take it

2:41

out of there and I and I look at it

2:43

all the time it's on my bookshelf. Imagine being married

2:46

to her because I give her gifts that

2:48

looked like they were like they were wrapped

2:50

like they were wrapped up. blind baboon you

2:52

know and she gives me these beautiful things

2:54

I'm like I'm terrible here you are yeah

2:56

because I like literally had never seen a

2:58

bow but it was the nicest bow I'd

3:00

ever seen I was like did a machine

3:02

do this what's going on it's very intimidating

3:05

so I just I just gave her

3:07

gift cards you know there you know

3:09

so anyways this has just been really

3:11

such a treat I mean I can't

3:13

even really describe and your books have

3:15

been so influential which will be out

3:17

by the time this podcast airs And

3:19

heading into Easter, I mean, this is

3:21

a great one, I think, to take,

3:23

you know, you're going to someone's Easter

3:25

dinner, you know, this is a beautiful

3:27

book to bring along with you to

3:29

give us a gift. It's called Blessed Are

3:32

the Spiraling, such a great title,

3:34

very intriguing, how the chaotic search

3:36

for significance can lead to joy

3:38

through life's shifting seasons. And I adored

3:40

it, adored it. What I thought maybe we

3:42

could do today is, I took a lot

3:44

of notes, but there were certain like just

3:46

one liners that really stuck out to

3:48

me. And I thought maybe we could kind of

3:51

go through some of those one liners and

3:53

you could expound. Sounds good. Sounds very good.

3:55

Thank you for the kind words. I

3:57

do like the the flowers on the

3:59

cover feel little feel springish doesn't it?

4:01

It does it does it does springly

4:03

and I also think it's just really

4:05

pertinent I think a lot of people

4:07

feel like they're spiraling and maybe most

4:10

and so I just found it very

4:12

intriguing the numbers are high you know

4:14

they say the old cliche is midlife

4:16

crisis and that's the specific form of

4:18

spiraling I wrote the book from the

4:20

perspective of but it really does hit

4:22

you wherever you spiral because the numbers

4:24

are strong that most people are going

4:26

to have a crisis in life attached

4:28

to a season of life at some

4:31

point. Midlife is, I think it's 25%

4:33

of people will experience directly what they

4:35

will realize later is a midlife crisis,

4:37

but there's also what's called a later

4:39

life crisis which can hit you in

4:41

your final stage of life, but then

4:43

the most right now, believe it or

4:45

not, Ginny, the most common form of

4:47

crisis is a what they call a

4:50

quarter life crisis, which globally life expectancy

4:52

is 72. In America, we tend to

4:54

live longer than that. But if you're

4:56

18 years of age, you are already

4:58

at quarter life. If you think about

5:00

it, you know, 18 to 36, you

5:02

know, to 72, you're 25% of the

5:04

way to 72. So It's interesting to

5:06

think that more and more people are

5:08

getting to a, you know, I'm out

5:11

of high school, I'm in college, or

5:13

I'm out of college, I'm into, you

5:15

know, the workforce, or I'm, you know,

5:17

married now and disillusioned, or empty nest,

5:19

you know, there's a lot of different

5:21

transition points that life can make us

5:23

feel disequiliberated. And this one goes through

5:25

your story, hitting Matt's about around 40

5:27

and having a lot of different things

5:30

sort of shift and fall apart, about

5:32

learning the rhythm, you say learning the

5:34

rhythms, I mean, or quote it exactly,

5:36

learning rhythms of stability is huge. And

5:38

so I think, especially even as Christians,

5:40

you know, there's the parable of the

5:42

talents, right, where it's like, the one

5:44

guy buries his, and the other people,

5:46

they double theirs, they, whatever, and there

5:48

is this. drive I think in us

5:51

to go and do and succeed and

5:53

all of these types of things and

5:55

so you're talking about even as a

5:57

follow of Christ that we have to

5:59

learn these rhythms of stability you kind

6:01

of talk about the spiritual side of

6:03

a slower pace so can you talk

6:05

about that little phrase and you're talking

6:07

about your own thing that you are

6:10

going along fine but you're speaking all

6:12

the time and you're doing all these

6:14

things all of this output and it

6:16

was fine and then it's not the

6:18

bottom drops out Yeah, I hit the

6:20

wall at 38 and I ran really

6:22

hard in my 20s and 30s. You

6:24

know, so those those 18 years, I

6:26

mean, Jenny and I got married, I

6:28

was 21, she was 22, first child,

6:31

we planted a church when we were,

6:33

I was 24, she was 25, and

6:35

we drove it like we stole it.

6:37

We were burning the fuel, peddled to

6:39

the metal for 20 years, even though

6:41

Lennox was not very proud of my

6:43

output. eight books, just enough books to

6:45

have done in a stretch of period.

6:47

And really, all of my books have

6:49

been done in a 10-year stretch. My

6:52

first book came out in 2015. So

6:54

everything I've written and published is in

6:56

a decade, and I've traveled the world

6:58

over two million miles on Delta Airlines,

7:00

not to mention the bad days I've

7:02

had on other airlines. I'm joking mostly,

7:04

but you know, Delta is the winner

7:06

for sure. Once you get a top

7:08

tier on any airline, any other experience

7:11

is a downgrade, just because you get

7:13

treated well when you're loyal. So I

7:15

mean, I went to South Africa twice

7:17

for the weekend in that period of

7:19

time, literally, like 18-hour flights land, in

7:21

one case, was driven straight to the

7:23

first beacon engagement, slept badly, slept, slept

7:25

badly, slept straight into the next thing.

7:27

And you can do that and I

7:29

did it. I did it for a

7:32

long time. And then it's, you know,

7:34

sugar-free red bowl, the next thing. There

7:36

was times where I wasn't quite sure

7:38

where I was. I would be on

7:40

stage giving a talk and not be

7:42

completely positive where I was. I wouldn't

7:44

say anything about where I was. I

7:46

was just going. And none of that's

7:48

bad. It just is not sustainable. As

7:51

you mentioned, it's not a stable, sustainable

7:53

rhythm. Partially, it was because of what

7:55

you mentioned, my understanding of the parable

7:57

of the talents. I don't want to

7:59

be that guy who's hiding a talent

8:01

in the ground. I want to be

8:03

able to tell Jesus, I used my

8:05

life for you for your glory. You

8:07

know, I believe. only one life and

8:09

it's soon going to be passed and

8:12

only what's done for God to last

8:14

and and and so there's that tension

8:16

then there's also we experienced grief when

8:18

our daughter died she was five and

8:20

she went to heaven and part of

8:22

our unique legacy for her it was

8:24

stewarding her story and after her death

8:26

we wrote two books about it through

8:28

the eyes of a lion and roar

8:31

like a lion that both by God's

8:33

grace have helped a lot of hurting

8:35

people because there's a lot of people

8:37

just like us who have gone through

8:39

hard things. And if I'm honest, Ginny,

8:41

part of my grief response was to

8:43

bury myself in work that made me

8:45

feel like I was doing her legacy

8:47

justice, which I'm glad about that because

8:49

every time someone's been encouraged by hearing

8:52

a linear story or knowing about cornea

8:54

transplant surgery and us raising $100,000 to

8:56

pay for blind kids to receive sight

8:58

in India. Like I'm proud of all

9:00

that, but I'm only one person who's

9:02

mortal and has limits, but to some

9:04

degree acted a little bit like that

9:06

wasn't the case. So I think it's

9:08

not, it's not either or, it's not

9:10

either we sit back and have a

9:13

margarita and a hammock or we go

9:15

and do our work for God seriously.

9:17

I just think as you mentioned, you

9:19

have to get to a place where

9:21

the pace is right and a lot

9:23

of that coalesced for me, I didn't

9:25

really realize. how hard I was going

9:27

and how little I was getting the

9:29

right rest I needed. And so when

9:32

it hit, I started having really bad

9:34

panic attacks at 2 a.m. every night

9:36

at bedtime or when I go to

9:38

sleep, I'd wake up and, you know,

9:40

frantic, like almost having a heart attack,

9:42

almost needing to call 911, and I

9:44

didn't know it, I didn't know to

9:46

go, oh, well, this is a midlife

9:48

crisis, you're not a young person, you're

9:50

not an old person, you're in the

9:53

middle, you're in transition, and you've been

9:55

just doing a lot, and it's, it's

9:57

just, it's, you're starting to crack. That

9:59

was kind of the circumstances, and again,

10:01

that was 2020, 2021, 22 was coming

10:03

out of it, I wrote about it,

10:05

and 23, now the books. out because

10:07

it was kind of everything I learned

10:09

and everything God was teaching me because

10:12

it never feels like a blessing to

10:14

spiral. That's why the title is such

10:16

a joke. You know, it's like, it

10:18

doesn't feel like it's blessing, but there

10:20

is blessing in it if you can

10:22

learn from it. That's why the sentence,

10:24

learning rhythms of stability is huge. It's

10:26

very hard to figure that out and

10:28

you talk a lot about going outside.

10:30

You know, for you, a lot of

10:33

the rhythms have been about fly fishing

10:35

and somehow snowboarding uphill instead of downhill

10:37

somehow somehow and tennis and hiking and

10:39

all of these different things and so

10:41

this really fits with our audience I

10:43

mean the getting outside the rest even

10:45

I just spoke to John Eldridge I

10:47

was like you're everywhere I was like

10:49

you're written for I'm like grabbing out

10:52

all the John Eldridge books I have

10:54

because he had a new one that

10:56

just came out called Experience Jesus really

10:58

and then I have all these other

11:00

John Eldridge books and it was like

11:02

forward by Levi Levi Lesco. I was

11:04

like this is fantastic about the healing

11:06

power of God's beauty. Okay, so here's

11:08

a quote. I just thought these were

11:10

so interesting. This one's from Warren Buffett,

11:13

because you talk about kind of being

11:15

a ticking time bomb. You're sort of

11:17

going going going when the tide goes

11:19

out, you find out who has been

11:21

swimming without a bathing suit. Yeah, wow.

11:23

That's a great quote. And a lovely

11:25

visual, right? Yeah, I think it's a

11:27

crisis that reveals it. You know, you

11:29

oftentimes find out what's in a cup

11:31

only when it gets bumped. And I

11:34

didn't realize... how little margin I had

11:36

I would have said hey I take

11:38

days off I take trips but if

11:40

I'm honest you know I would take

11:42

trips but I'll also have a speaking

11:44

engagement and I would come straight home

11:46

into one my counselor helped me see

11:48

Because basically, when I started cracking up,

11:50

it was very scary, you know, because

11:53

I felt so out of control. And

11:55

then the next thing that happened was

11:57

I started to really struggle with apathy.

11:59

I've never had a lack of vision

12:01

and drive. And this is it. But

12:03

I started to feel like, I don't

12:05

know. I don't know if I see

12:07

myself continuing in this job. I don't

12:09

know if I have anything to say.

12:11

And I was scared I think a

12:14

lot by that. So I did a

12:16

number of things. I met with my

12:18

doctor. I wanted to see like, is

12:20

this a hormone thing? Is it a

12:22

testosterone thing? Is it is it a

12:24

imbalance, blood sugar, brains, like I did

12:26

the I did a full tip to

12:28

tail, you know, stress tested my heart,

12:30

you know, all the things. And I

12:33

was healthy. And so that that was

12:35

ruled out. I did an intensive counseling

12:37

and stepped up that. And I think,

12:39

you know, it was a little bit

12:41

of everything. It was kind of a

12:43

thousand paper cuts. It was all the

12:45

normal intensity of turning 38 and getting

12:47

to a midlife and going, okay, I'm

12:49

starting to, you know, be on the

12:51

other side of the hill, likely I

12:54

have more life behind me than in

12:56

front of me, unless I live to

12:58

100, I'm kind of at that spot.

13:00

And there's just been a lot of

13:02

pace I've been running at. We planted

13:04

11 churches, spoke on you know the

13:06

whole world and so I think it

13:08

was just a perfect storm and it

13:10

took the pandemic for me like Warren

13:13

Buffett says to find all that out

13:15

because all of a sudden all of

13:17

that distraction went away and we were

13:19

all just left sitting still and that's

13:21

when it you know what do they

13:23

say about soldiers they don't get PTSD

13:25

when they're in battle they get it

13:27

when they come home because that's when

13:29

your body lets you start feeling it

13:31

and so I think sitting still and

13:34

not flying for you know the first

13:36

time I hadn't gone a month without

13:38

five, six airplanes in 10 years all

13:40

of a sudden were home all the

13:42

time and it was like, okay, my

13:44

body felt safe enough to let me

13:46

feel the mileage. The tag goes out.

13:48

This book is so good. Okay, one

13:50

of the things that you talk about

13:52

a lot in this book is about

13:55

change. The only constant life is change.

13:57

And even I was like, this is

13:59

actually so trippy. I never thought about

14:01

this in my entire life, Levi. I

14:03

hate change. I'm like, personally, I'm just

14:05

like, I'm freaked out. It's good. Things

14:07

are constantly changing. I'd rather. But you

14:09

know, growing up my life didn't change

14:11

that much. And so I feel like

14:14

I wasn't very prepared for the amount

14:16

of change that happened in adulthood. I

14:18

was like, well, you go to school

14:20

and then the next year you go

14:22

to school. And it's the same thing.

14:24

Then you have summer vacation. So I

14:26

don't think I was quite prepared enough

14:28

for the amount of change. And then

14:30

you wrote this sentence. I was like,

14:32

oh my goodness. You're talking to your

14:35

friends, Stu, who's near the end of

14:37

his life. It almost reminded me of

14:39

when you go to have a baby,

14:41

like we had a midwife and so

14:43

I always was like, I hope I

14:45

don't call her too soon. You know,

14:47

I don't want her sitting at my

14:49

house for 48 hours if I jump

14:51

to the gun. It was still, if

14:54

he's in hospice or he's sort of

14:56

nearing the end of his life and

14:58

he feels bad because he calls people

15:00

in too soon because I was like,

15:02

Oh my gosh, like you end life

15:04

with something you've never done. Yeah, he

15:06

felt so embarrassed. I love Stu. Stu

15:08

is a long time part of our

15:10

church and a good friend and a

15:12

very, very funny guy, a wild guy,

15:15

but then, you know, with Parkinson's and

15:17

everything, he really slowly decayed in front

15:19

of our eyes. And yet he was

15:21

still so funny because he would, I

15:23

would come into the room and see

15:25

him and he would grab his walker

15:27

and pretend to be doing. preacher curls

15:29

with it like he's like I'm still

15:31

strong like he would be lifting weights

15:34

with his walker and then yeah he

15:36

thought he was dying so he called

15:38

me and asked me to come over

15:40

because he thought he was gonna not

15:42

live through the night and and then

15:44

he was so embarrassed the next day

15:46

because I wasn't able to come the

15:48

day that he thought he was dying

15:50

I came the next morning and he

15:52

was so ashamed Because he goes, oh,

15:55

I can't believe I didn't die. And

15:57

I go, stew, you've never died before.

15:59

He was still here. He was false.

16:01

He was just saw it in his

16:03

eyes. You know, because I'm the guy

16:05

like in my counseling appointments. I'm like

16:07

wondering, is my count, am I saying

16:09

it right? It's my counselor like me.

16:11

Like I'm like, you know what I

16:13

mean? So I was, I understand that.

16:16

And he goes, I can't believe I

16:18

didn't die. You've never died before. You've

16:20

never died before. Why would you've never

16:22

died before. Why would you think you

16:24

think you think you think you think

16:26

you think you think you think you

16:28

think you're going to be going to

16:30

be going to be good at going

16:32

to be good at it. You're going

16:35

to be good at it. You're going

16:37

to be good at it. And he

16:39

laughed. He goes, you're right. I go,

16:41

remember the first time he tied your

16:43

shoes? You weren't good at it. I

16:45

said, let me just give you the

16:47

bottom line. You are not going to

16:49

be good at dying. How can you

16:51

be? I said, but God is very

16:53

good at the death of his children.

16:56

He's had a lot of experience. And

16:58

he's going to be taking care of

17:00

you. He's got this. And he laughed

17:02

and smiled and smiled and they fell

17:04

back asleep. My Midlife crisis or any

17:06

trends, anyone listening, who maybe it's an

17:08

empty nest that has made you spiral,

17:10

the loss of a job, the move

17:12

across country, or maybe you don't even

17:15

know why you're spiraling, but you are.

17:17

It could be in response to a

17:19

good thing, you wanted, you wanted a

17:21

kid, you wanted a kid, you wanted

17:23

to get married, but now you're in

17:25

it, you're in it, and you're just

17:27

confused as to why you're feeling the

17:29

way you are. And I've never been

17:31

here, the change goes all the way

17:33

until the very, very end. When at

17:36

the very, very end, you're doing something

17:38

you've never done before. This episode is

17:40

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