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ai .domo.com A-I

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dot

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The

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brand. Stay curious, stay agile,

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leave us a rating so others can find

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us as well. And now on to the show.

2:07

This episode is brought to you by

2:09

Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting

2:11

firm specializing in marketing and

2:14

HR positions. We've talked about

2:16

volatile job markets before on this

2:18

show, but has it been anything like

2:20

what is currently going on? What should marketers

2:23

looking for employment be expecting and what

2:25

should employers looking to hire be looking

2:27

out for in the months ahead? Today

2:29

we're going to talk about the current state

2:31

of hiring for marketers and how communication

2:34

execs are responding to the latest developments

2:36

in the world while still needing to

2:38

get their work done. Tell me discuss this

2:40

topic. I'd like to welcome back to the

2:43

show. Sue Keith, corporate vice president at Landrum

2:45

Talent Solutions. Sue, welcome back to the show.

2:47

Thanks, Greg. It's always fun to chat with

2:49

you. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm looking forward

2:52

to talking with you again. For those

2:54

that missed one of our previous conversations,

2:56

why don't you start with giving a

2:58

little background on yourself and what you're

3:01

currently doing? Sure. Land of Talent is

3:03

a national recruiting firm that specializes

3:05

in two functional areas, HR and

3:07

marketing, which is the practice I

3:09

lead. As our listeners know marketing

3:11

is a pretty big category so

3:13

we see it as four categories

3:15

marketing communications product and creative and

3:17

we place full-time contract and fractional positions

3:19

within those buckets. Our whole team is

3:22

off former marketers myself included so we

3:24

like to say we speak the language

3:26

and I think our clients would agree

3:28

that we're pretty good matchmakers. Great so

3:30

yeah let's let's dive in here and

3:33

you know as I mentioned at the

3:35

top of the show I want to

3:37

talk about the state of hiring so

3:39

what is the state of hiring for

3:41

marketers in today's volatile environment you know

3:43

let's let's use that term right well

3:46

it's definitely an interesting time to be

3:48

talking about hiring especially as you and

3:50

I both sit here in DC right

3:52

as I've mentioned several times on the

3:54

show the job market for marketers for

3:56

the last few years has been pretty

3:58

tough as companies pull back on marketing

4:01

investments and marketing people. You know, for

4:03

smaller companies, this pullback was mostly in

4:05

response to their investors, demanding their portfolio

4:07

companies show a path to profitability versus

4:09

that, you know, previously it was like,

4:11

grow at all costs, no matter what

4:13

it costs. And then for larger companies,

4:15

I think it was more in anticipation

4:17

of a recession that the pundits were

4:19

all predicting, but didn't actually materialize. Now,

4:22

I should note that I'm talking about

4:24

the last few years and not the

4:26

current state with all the new warnings

4:28

about a pending recession. I think kind of

4:30

a combination of ironically and somewhat sadly,

4:32

our team was cautiously optimistic about the

4:35

hiring market as we headed into 2025,

4:37

because you know, no matter how you

4:39

feel about the election results, a Republican

4:42

win is typically considered positive by the

4:44

business community. So we're expecting a resurrection

4:46

of investment in strategic initiatives and technology

4:48

and in hiring. We'd also seen a

4:51

renewed interest in several roles, so

4:53

specifically partner marketing, which I think

4:55

is a reflection of companies deciding

4:57

not to rely solely on their

4:59

direct sales team or perhaps maybe

5:01

put all their eggs into their

5:03

channel partners. We saw event marketing

5:06

roles coming back, events become, you

5:08

know, five years post-covid where they're

5:10

back, and then also content strategy.

5:12

But, you know, the current climate, shall we

5:14

say, has, and as you just

5:16

said, has created a lot of

5:18

uncertainty, and there's uncertainties keeping companies

5:21

on the sidelines. So... you

5:23

know, doge's cuts are certainly

5:25

having a measurable impact on

5:27

the DC market, but it's

5:29

also having far reaching reverberations

5:31

in many states across the country. Yeah,

5:33

yeah. Well, and yeah, I mean,

5:35

it's, you know, I don't like

5:37

getting too political on the show,

5:39

but it's hard to avoid, you

5:41

know, some of this talk and

5:43

what we're talking about, you know,

5:45

there's in addition to what you

5:47

mentioned as far as kind of

5:49

some uncertainty around recession or not.

5:51

There's also, you know, there's been

5:53

various executive orders that relate to

5:55

some of them, maybe not as

5:57

close relations to the job market.

5:59

the marketing job market, but others

6:01

do have an impact. How are

6:04

you seeing communication exacts responding to

6:06

those, you know, to the various executive

6:08

orders that have been coming out? Well,

6:10

we've been hosting virtual roundtables with

6:13

CMO since COVID. And as I mentioned,

6:15

we just passed the five-year NRS3 of

6:17

when the WHO declared COVID, COVID, a

6:20

CO, COVID-a pandemic. So it's kind of

6:22

crazy. It feels like it was both

6:24

yesterday and 20 years ago, right. So after

6:26

we've been talking to CMOs for all

6:28

these years every month, late last year

6:31

we decided to add communications execs to

6:33

the mix for 2025, and little do

6:35

we know at that time we'd have

6:37

so much to talk about. We've hosted

6:40

two roundtables so far this year with

6:42

comms leaders, and they really cover a

6:44

diverse range of industries. So on the

6:46

commercial side, B to B to B

6:48

to G, government contractors who are quite

6:51

in the crosshairs right now. to non-profits

6:53

and associations. And, you know, we cover

6:55

a lot of ground during these

6:57

conversations, but I'll give you the kind

6:59

of the highest topics, if you will.

7:01

The first is what I'll call, I

7:03

call fluidity. So as one of the

7:05

participants said, and I love this quote,

7:07

the ability to have agility is

7:09

especially critical right now as a

7:12

new administration induces new mandates, new

7:14

policies that are that are impacting

7:16

companies. Internal communications was another topic.

7:18

So everyone at these meetings is

7:20

responsible also for employee communications as

7:22

well as external messaging. And interesting

7:24

enough, back to COVID, several of

7:26

the participants said it feels like

7:29

it's COVID, where you need to

7:31

communicate with your employee base, but

7:33

things are changing at such a

7:35

rapid pace, it's difficult to know

7:37

what to say and when to say it. But

7:39

I thought this was an interesting point.

7:42

Several of them mentioned said, you know,

7:44

as an anchor in all this volatility,

7:46

they're focusing values values. to continue to

7:48

inform their strategic decisions. That kind of

7:50

leads into the next one, which is

7:52

DEA messaging. So not surprisingly, one of

7:54

the hottest topics was how companies are

7:57

reevaluating their DEA initiatives and adjusting their

7:59

external messages. And, you know, some

8:01

of these folks have replaced the

8:03

term diversity with language that's just

8:05

broad and inclusive. Others have removed

8:08

EI language entirely from their websites.

8:10

So you'll see companies responding in

8:12

different ways. And, you know, one of the

8:14

leaders on these calls said something I thought

8:16

it was an insight that was spot on. She

8:18

said, right now it's not a question of

8:20

right or wrong. It's a question of the

8:23

leadership team's risk tolerance. So that's how

8:25

each company is approaching. approach to

8:27

this. And also this varies depending

8:29

on the industry, you know, as

8:31

I mentioned, government contractors are in

8:33

the crosshairs right now, so they're going

8:35

to have, you know, they're going to

8:38

have to really consider the risk tolerance

8:40

more though, so that some other industries

8:42

or other companies. You know, another interesting

8:44

topic, and for me, it was pretty

8:46

unexpected, it was influencers. So I feel

8:49

like, you know, influencer marketing is like

8:51

the Phoenix. But if you think about

8:53

it, it really makes sense. You know,

8:55

as more and more people, your buyers,

8:57

get their, and your stakeholders, get their

9:00

news and information and misinformation from social

9:02

channels, that means they're putting their trust

9:04

in the people they follow. So

9:06

communicating your messages through those followers

9:08

has become a critical component of

9:11

an external messaging strategy. And you know,

9:13

and this applies to all sectors, you

9:15

know, influenza marketing is no longer just

9:17

a strategy for big, big consumer brands.

9:19

Yeah. So, you know, to the,

9:21

to the point of agility

9:24

and, and, you know,

9:26

the, the need to

9:28

be able to be

9:30

nimble in, in these

9:32

times, I mean, you

9:34

know, one of the

9:37

characteristics, let's just say

9:39

right now is just

9:41

kind of the rapid

9:43

things are being rolled

9:46

out. Maybe there's a few

9:48

different mindsets here. You know, there

9:50

could be the, okay, let's wait

9:52

and see and just kind of

9:54

see how things shake out. Or

9:56

there could be the more reactive,

9:58

like, okay, this. We've got to

10:01

jump on this and have

10:03

an answer within hours. Are there

10:05

any common themes there are

10:07

threads like our leaders being

10:10

more reactive? Are they being

10:12

a little more cautious and

10:14

just kind of letting things

10:17

shake out or maybe all the

10:19

above? I'd say all the above. D.

10:21

What we're seeing is both. So

10:23

there are companies who sell the

10:26

government agencies. who have

10:28

just done preemptive layoffs. I

10:30

have a good friend who just got

10:33

caught up and just basically I

10:35

think she said that any position

10:37

that that company was filling on

10:39

behalf of whatever agency it was,

10:41

if it had the term consultant

10:43

in it, I think it was,

10:45

they just got axed. And so

10:47

the companies that, you know, are looking

10:50

at these executive orders which have direct

10:52

impact on the agencies they support, the

10:54

government agencies they support, and are really

10:56

doing some preemptive, perhaps reactive things. I'd

10:58

say if you're not in the business

11:00

of selling to the government, I don't

11:03

think we've seen a much different reaction.

11:05

It's just more a continuation of what

11:07

we've been seeing over the past few

11:09

years, like I mentioned. Companies, you know,

11:11

they continue to be reluctant to invest

11:14

in new people while the political and

11:16

the economic environment is so unstable. We

11:18

all know data is valuable. We

11:20

use it to tell a story,

11:22

to make informed decisions for our businesses,

11:24

but turning data into actionable insights can

11:27

be a challenge. It's time to unlock

11:29

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11:31

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11:51

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11:53

your processes, helping you make

11:56

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11:58

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12:04

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fee. I can't wait to

13:06

see you there. So, yeah,

13:08

I think this is

13:10

a recurring theme

13:13

whenever you and I chat, but

13:15

all of this aside and, you know,

13:17

there's... no matter what's going on there's

13:19

always going to be something happening that

13:22

is a reason to pull back or

13:24

push or whatever but what does all

13:26

this mean for those marketing and comms

13:28

leaders that you know they still need

13:30

to get worked out there's still widgets

13:32

to be sold or you know whatever

13:35

the case may be you know what

13:37

does this mean for those leaders that

13:39

you know they still have to get

13:41

stuff done but maybe their staff is

13:43

more limited or you know what what

13:46

do you recommend there? So, you know, as

13:48

I mentioned, we support contract fractional and

13:50

full-time roles. So we cover all types

13:52

of hiring needs. And I'm going to

13:54

take this back to COVID, just like

13:56

during COVID, especially in the early year

13:58

of or to a COVID. We've

14:00

seen an uptick in our

14:02

clients requesting interim support for the

14:04

last couple of years and we're seeing

14:07

it even more so now. And that's

14:09

because, you know, when everything's uncertain and

14:11

headcount is really impossible to get. But

14:14

as you said, the work still needs to

14:16

get done. So a contractor and interim contract

14:18

is a really good solution there. So, you

14:20

know, while sometimes this. The need is

14:22

temporary, say it's a maternity leave coverage or

14:25

you've just got to get some people help

14:27

with a product launch. That's got some finite

14:29

time periods to it. You know, oftentimes what

14:32

we're seeing is a hiring manager really

14:34

wants to hire a full-time person but couldn't

14:36

get the head count approved. So what they're

14:38

doing is they use their own budget to

14:40

bring on a contractor, which avoids any

14:42

tricky negotiations with a jar. which means

14:44

they're dipping into the own program dollars

14:46

and they're striking a balance between investing

14:49

in those programs and investing in people

14:51

to help execute those campaigns. The other

14:53

interesting we're seeing is what I'm calling

14:55

a proof of concept. So in this

14:57

case, again, the hiring manager doesn't have

14:59

a headcount, but they really need to get work to

15:01

get done. So what they're doing is they're bringing

15:03

in a contract or one to get the

15:05

work done, but two to demonstrate the leadership. the

15:07

value of having someone in

15:09

that position, and they use

15:12

that evidence, if you will,

15:14

to eventually secure headcount. We've

15:16

actually seen the strategy be effective

15:19

numerous times with their clients. Yeah,

15:21

yeah. What about, I know we've

15:23

talked a bit about fractional roles

15:26

in the past. Is there, I

15:28

mean, it sounds like there's

15:30

interest in contractor roles for

15:33

the times in the past. Yes,

15:35

and I think it's a combination

15:37

of two things. One, the definition

15:40

of fractional has been broadened to

15:42

basically replace the word contractor unless

15:44

you truly are a fractional CMO

15:46

or CXO, insert X. And there

15:49

are so and so there's that. There's

15:51

two is, you know, like I just

15:53

said, a lot of companies, a lot

15:55

of CMOs, or CCOs can't get headcount

15:57

approved, but they can use their own

16:00

budgets. Typically, the budget for a

16:02

contractor comes out of your bucket,

16:04

not the HR headcount bucket. And

16:06

then three, there are so many

16:08

people on the market that they've

16:10

all hung their fractional shingles.

16:12

So it's definitely very, it's a

16:14

hot, hot market at the moment.

16:17

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we've been

16:19

talking from the employer perspective on

16:21

a switch gears here and let's

16:23

talk about this from the job

16:25

seeker. market certainly you know

16:27

again with with a lot of a

16:30

lot of the layoffs but you know

16:32

particularly you know as you mentioned both

16:34

of us sitting here in DC there's

16:36

very particular kind of bent to that

16:39

conversation but what can job seekers do

16:41

in you know what seems to be

16:43

I know it feels like we always

16:45

say this but like an increasingly challenging

16:47

market you know what should job seekers

16:50

be doing now? Sure. Well, the first

16:52

thing I tell everyone we talk to,

16:54

because we talk to so many really

16:56

talented marketers who just cannot find a

16:58

job. They get some interests, they might

17:00

be a finalist, and then something goes

17:02

bump in the night. The first thing

17:04

I say is it's not you, it's

17:06

truly them. It is really a tough, I'd

17:08

say, unforgiving market. The next thing our

17:11

team recommends is you'll be disciplined. You

17:13

know, your job is to find

17:15

a job. So you want to

17:17

set aside specific time blocksks, time

17:19

periods, time periods, with things. very

17:21

clear actions and hold yourself accountable, but

17:23

also give yourself some breaks, just don't

17:25

sit going at it for eight hours

17:27

a day. You really like do it

17:29

for, you know, X number of hours

17:32

and then take a break and do

17:34

something that's distracting, which ultimately I think

17:36

you'll just feel better in general, which

17:38

means your job search might go better

17:40

and eventually you'll interview better. We just

17:42

talked about this. If you can, be

17:44

open to contract roles. As we talked

17:46

about, way more prevalent than full-time positions

17:49

right now, it also gives you something

17:51

to put in your resume, exposures to a

17:53

whole new, potentially a whole new network of

17:55

people, and could possibly convert to a full-time

17:57

position. I mean, back to my proof of

17:59

concept. talk. You're not be surprised when I

18:01

say network network and network some more.

18:04

And then there's, I'll add a twist

18:06

to this, ask for help. I've noticed

18:08

an interesting paradox. People don't like to

18:10

ask others for help, but most people

18:12

like to help others. So, you know,

18:14

ask a former colleague, even if you

18:16

haven't talked to that person in

18:18

five years, to connect you with

18:20

someone at the company you're interested

18:23

in, ask someone you trust, introduce

18:25

you to groups, or part of

18:27

etc. for a connection, some sort

18:29

of support, and most people want

18:31

to help. I mean, the worst

18:33

thing that will happen is you

18:35

get ignored. That's really the worst

18:37

thing. Yeah, I love that. I

18:40

love that advice. And a good

18:42

friend of mine gave me similar

18:44

advice years and years ago. She

18:46

moved from Alaska to the big

18:48

city, you know, DC or whatever,

18:51

and characterized as this,

18:53

like she didn't. know that you couldn't

18:55

reach out to the CEO of a

18:57

company and just ask for help for

18:59

something and amazingly got a lot of

19:01

not everybody responded of course but like

19:04

got so many responses of people just

19:06

being willing to help so like I

19:08

always keep that in mind of there

19:10

are a lot of like I know

19:12

you know I do my best to

19:14

do the same in my own way

19:17

you know to respond to questions and

19:19

stuff but you know I've been helped

19:21

by so many people that really I

19:23

I doubted they would even like respond

19:25

to my LinkedIn message or email or

19:27

whatever. So I definitely just want to

19:29

pile onto that one. Yeah, just ask.

19:31

Ask. What's that line we use? If

19:34

you don't ask, you don't get. Right.

19:36

Right. Another idea is create your

19:38

own networking group of job seekers. So it's

19:40

another way. to expand your network or as

19:42

we say in marketing reach. You know, and

19:44

this is especially if you're uncomfortable networking with

19:47

strangers. I mean, there are a lot of

19:49

people that is really uncomfortable. So pull in

19:51

people you know and then those people can

19:53

bring in their context to expand the group.

19:55

So that's another way. And again, I've watched

19:57

people do this and it also is just.

19:59

It's a nice way, and we do this

20:02

once a month with job seekers is virtually,

20:04

as we bring together directors above who are

20:06

job seeking, and it is, the feedback we've

20:08

gotten, I mean, we can only help so

20:11

many people get a job, but we've got

20:13

some really nice feedback from folks, and just

20:15

thank you for giving me a place of

20:17

other people in the same boat as me.

20:19

You know, I call it networking and

20:21

advice in commiseration. So, you know,

20:23

create your own little networking group

20:26

of job seekers if you're comfortable

20:28

doing that. great way to meet people and

20:30

network there are tons of professionals who volunteer

20:33

plus again to you you can put it

20:35

on your resume and it might be something

20:37

whatever you're doing might resonate with whoever's reading

20:39

your resume you know I have a real-life

20:41

example so my colleague recently joined the board

20:44

of a nonprofit and within I think a

20:46

couple of weeks one of her fellow board members

20:48

became a candidate we presented for one of

20:50

our positions. So I can't promise that's

20:52

going to happen but volunteering and you're also

20:54

going to feel good about yourself and it's

20:57

a nice way of take a break from

20:59

the job-seeking. You know, another thing I've talked to

21:01

several people about who've done this, you

21:03

might want to take a part-time job. Now, less

21:05

for the money. It's more about getting out of

21:07

the house, you know, taking a break from the

21:09

job-seeking, like we mentioned, meeting new people. One

21:12

marketer told me she's really enjoying serving as

21:14

a mentor to the more junior people who

21:16

work at, I think it was William Sonoma.

21:18

But one thing I should mention, like

21:20

you clearly need to understand the implications

21:23

of taking a job if you're receiving

21:25

unemployment benefits. So I just wanted to

21:27

make that note, because for some people

21:29

it might not be worth it. And then

21:31

here's my last piece of advice. I

21:33

strongly recommend keeping politics out of your LinkedIn

21:36

posts. It's really important to remember that about,

21:38

let's say, half of the audience will be

21:40

on the other side of wherever you stand.

21:42

So it's just really risky. Yeah, yeah, that's

21:44

great. Great advice and some great

21:46

ideas there. And to, you know,

21:48

as we wrap up here, you

21:51

know, I know we've talked about

21:53

a lot of the challenges and

21:55

certainly, you know, there might be

21:57

some more challenges yet to come.

21:59

But to kind of end on

22:02

a positive note, I guess a

22:04

question for you, what are some

22:06

bright spots that those listening should

22:08

consider? I'm glad you asked this

22:10

question because I feel like I'm often

22:12

the voice of doom during their conversation.

22:14

At least I have been for the

22:17

last couple of years. So one positive,

22:19

and again, I'm going to go back

22:21

to something we just talked about fairly

22:24

ad nauseum. Well, full-time jobs

22:26

may be hard to find. there are

22:28

a lot of freelancing contract

22:30

opportunities out there. And I'm wondering too

22:32

if they will stay, those opportunities

22:34

will stay out there because as

22:36

more and more companies experiment with

22:38

using contractors instead of full-time people,

22:40

that may just become their norm.

22:42

So definitely be open to that.

22:44

And you know, make sure people

22:46

know you're open to that. So

22:48

not everybody assumes if you're looking,

22:50

if they see you looking for a full-time

22:53

job, not everyone assume, will assume

22:55

that you're actually open to a

22:57

contract. So make sure people know that.

22:59

And then we almost got through

23:01

this without mentioning AI, but here

23:03

we go. All right, right. Good one.

23:05

AI is also an opportunity. So

23:07

I like to say candidates

23:10

should become conversant in AI.

23:12

Actually, I'll expand that to

23:14

all marketers, not just candidates.

23:16

Not an expert. I'm not sure

23:19

anyone can be, but knowledgeable enough

23:21

to talk about the use of

23:23

AI and marketing strategy during interviews.

23:25

Just assume and be ready for

23:27

it. You know, you've probably heard

23:29

that saying that says you're not

23:31

going to lose your job to

23:33

AI, but you may lose it to

23:35

someone who knows AI. I tweak that say,

23:37

you're not going to lose a job opportunity to

23:39

AI, but you may lose to a candidate who

23:41

knows AI. So V is conversed as you can.

23:44

Love it. Well, Sue, thanks again for

23:46

joining today. One very last question. I

23:48

know I asked this to everybody, but

23:50

since you've been on the show before

23:52

I've asked it to you before, but

23:54

you before, As with, you know, agility

23:56

and improvement, you know, might have a

23:58

slightly different answer this. So what do you

24:00

do to stay agile in your role and

24:03

how do you find a way to do

24:05

it consistently? Yeah, well, one of the, I

24:07

do love this question. One of

24:09

the cool things about my job

24:11

is I get to create a

24:13

lot of thought leadership, which means

24:15

I'm constantly talking with marketing communication

24:17

leaders about the trends they're seeing,

24:19

the issues they're grappling with right now,

24:21

doge. So while I myself may not

24:23

do marketing per se anymore, this allows

24:26

me to talk marketing every day

24:28

with really interesting people. And if

24:30

you don't mind, I have a shameless

24:32

plug. Oh, sure. To that point, you

24:35

know, I talked about the roundtables we're

24:37

doing with communications executives, and we also

24:39

do them with marketers most, almost every

24:41

month. If you want to find the

24:43

recaps of those conversations or on our

24:45

blog page at Landrum Talent solutions.com. Right,

24:48

right. Love it. Well again, I'd

24:50

like to thank Sue Keith, corporate

24:52

vice president at Landrum Talent Solutions

24:54

for joining the show. Thanks to

24:56

our sponsor, Landrum Talent Solutions, a

24:58

national recruiting firm specializing in marketing

25:00

and HR positions. You can learn

25:02

more about Sue and Landrum Talent

25:04

Solutions by following the links in the show

25:06

notes. Thanks again for listening to the

25:08

agile brand brought to you by Tech

25:11

Systems. If you enjoyed the show, please

25:13

take a minute to subscribe and leave

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us a rating so that others can

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find the show as well. You can

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access more episodes of the show at

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the agilebrand.com. That's the agilebrand.com. And

25:24

contact me if you're

25:27

interested in consulting or

25:29

advisory services or are

25:31

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25:34

for your next event.

25:36

Go to www. Greg

25:38

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