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XSOLLA.pro/A-I-A-S-P, click the click the

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description to learn

1:17

more. learn more. Welcome

1:25

to Game Maker's Notebook, a a podcast

1:27

featuring a series of in -depth

1:29

one -on -one conversations between game game

1:31

a thoughtful, a intimate perspective on

1:33

the business and craft of interactive

1:35

entertainment. The Game

1:38

Maker's Notebook is presented by the

1:40

Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences,

1:42

a member and Sciences, dedicated to the

1:44

recognition and advancement of interactive entertainment.

1:46

and advancement of interactive

1:49

entertainment. Hey

1:54

Reb, Welcome to The Game

1:56

Maker's Notebook. Hey, thank you very you very

1:58

much for having me. It's great

2:01

to have you. There's a

2:03

ton I want to talk

2:05

to you about. We're going

2:08

to talk a lot about

2:10

obviously warframe today. And I'm

2:12

super interested in talking about

2:14

that. I'm also really interested

2:17

in talking to you about

2:19

being a female creative director

2:21

in the game industry because

2:23

there are basically none of

2:26

those and we need to

2:28

have way more. And that's

2:30

something I'm really excited to.

2:32

to talk to you about.

2:35

And usually when I do

2:37

these podcasts, I like to

2:39

try to find out where

2:41

the spark of creativity and

2:44

video games kind of started

2:46

in your life and fall

2:48

that through to today and

2:50

where you're going and what

2:53

you're doing at digital extremes.

2:55

And with the excellent warframe,

2:57

I will say that. I

2:59

hadn't played Warframe in maybe,

3:02

I guess, 10 years. I

3:04

played Warframe on the PS4,

3:06

I think, when it first

3:08

came out. I believe that

3:11

was in 2013. And I

3:13

was completely shocked when I

3:15

was doing my research and

3:17

playing the game in preparation

3:20

for this episode at the

3:22

evolution of Warframe. It is

3:24

an incredible game. It's always

3:26

been a really great game,

3:29

but I was very, I

3:31

guess I just hadn't been

3:33

following along. And this is

3:35

a big, huge, massive game

3:37

taking, huge, big swings. And

3:40

I had a really fun

3:42

time getting back into it,

3:44

and I think I'm a

3:46

warframe player again. Oh my

3:49

god. Well, thank you. That's

3:51

incredible. It's definitely been the

3:53

journey of all journeys. It's

3:55

it's our

3:58

story now as

4:00

a company. Yeah,

4:02

it's in doing it's I

4:04

my research. couldn't I actually

4:07

couldn't believe all of the

4:09

expansions. come out. that have come out.

4:11

Like I actually started making a

4:13

list and I'm like, I'm never be

4:15

able to be about. never be any and all

4:17

of these talk about any and all these. So

4:19

let's we'll get to all that stuff. that it.

4:21

You got it. It's really. it. It's

4:23

really, really, really interesting

4:26

and wild time diving

4:28

back into back into warframe. So talk

4:30

to to me about. how you got

4:32

how you got into all far back far

4:34

back as you can remember. where

4:37

did, what was the, what

4:39

are the seeds of,

4:41

yes, for creative director. Well, like any

4:43

good story, I'm sure this

4:45

one starts with my parents getting

4:47

divorced getting my mom was the

4:49

Nintendo 64 household and my

4:51

dad. wanting to make sure we

4:53

had something to do there was the PlayStation

4:55

1 household, so. was the would have

4:57

been six years old I would have been

4:59

had an older brother. old and I had an

5:01

choice of house is and Sophie's

5:04

choice of houses there. I know, it was

5:06

real. relatively amicable for, you

5:08

know, all things considered,

5:10

but considered. I was was always playing

5:12

games, I since I can remember I had older I

5:14

had syndrome so I so I wanted to do

5:16

whatever he did. he I had older male

5:18

cousin syndrome, so I wanted to do

5:20

whatever they did, and that was typically video

5:22

games, because you're just kind of at kind

5:25

of at the, you know, the You know, the of of

5:27

parents realizing they can put their kids in

5:29

front of game consoles game not. not that

5:31

bad, so bad. So. things really

5:33

were formative. and my like oddly enough

5:35

enough, my sweet grandmother

5:37

also DOS a DOS computer and she

5:39

would always come home with a

5:42

game from the office from the up like boot

5:44

up you know jazz or something. or It

5:46

was it always something that I

5:48

was doing that I was as long as I

5:50

can remember a game, as I a piece of

5:52

tech, whatever it was. of tech whatever it

5:54

were the were the what were the

5:56

of of experiences that

5:58

really really kind of Let you

6:00

up and were like the things

6:03

you kept coming back to and

6:05

and and you know the things

6:07

that really kind of You know

6:09

brought you back to those games

6:11

Honestly when I think about the

6:13

as a you know a child

6:16

experiencing something it typically was the

6:18

decision-making and the storytelling and Oftentimes,

6:20

like it's kind of like is

6:22

bucked into my memories of being

6:24

able to participate or just watch

6:27

depending on if older brother had

6:29

the controller or not, but it

6:31

was it also Went through the

6:33

the narrative of you know getting

6:35

the game boy as well. So

6:37

I kind of always was playing

6:40

something and if it was. the

6:42

game boy it was Pokemon and

6:44

if it was on the Nintendo

6:46

it was Super Mario 64 or

6:48

Zelda O' Green of Time and

6:50

then other games too but then

6:53

on the PlayStation it was whatever

6:55

right it was NHL 97 or

6:57

something and I always remember just

6:59

there being so many options I

7:01

felt like that as a player

7:03

I there's a whole world of

7:06

people creating things for for kids,

7:08

I always thought it was so

7:10

kid-focused, like there's no way adults

7:12

play video games. And then as

7:14

the years went by, I started

7:16

seeing that there was more interesting

7:19

stories being told, or there were,

7:21

you know, graphic developments and being

7:23

10 and trying to learn how

7:25

to draw, and then seeing the

7:27

jump to PS2 graphics, you know,

7:30

my mind was blown. And I

7:32

remember just feeling really confident that

7:34

this was what I wanted to

7:36

do, and that was at the

7:38

age of, you know, seven or

7:40

eight. this is my life. I

7:43

committed myself then to just being

7:45

into games, playing games and wanting

7:47

to because of the stories mostly

7:49

at the time. So were there

7:51

any like any real particular standout

7:53

games that you're still thinking about

7:56

today like that like deep core

7:58

memories of these games that really

8:00

were meaningful to meaningful to

8:02

you. It is time. of time. It's

8:04

so hard for it not to be

8:06

for, you know, a young girl that

8:08

saw Princess Zelda, but also chic. And

8:10

then Link was just, you know, everything

8:12

you wanted to play as and more. to

8:14

play as in Moore. And it's impossible to

8:16

not look at some part of

8:19

my gray matter and not

8:21

see something see something, there from that

8:23

moment on. that moment on. You know, know, the

8:25

it's the best, for me it's the best

8:27

I'll ever be. will ever be. So I like it peaked

8:29

when I was six, but I was have gotten better, and

8:31

there's of... great games out there and

8:33

there's part of what has formed

8:35

But as a part of what profession it turned

8:37

started at that moment with

8:39

that game with that package on

8:41

that cartridge when you'd have

8:44

to rip it out blow it

8:46

to it back in blow keep

8:48

going it's just and know what

8:50

an experience that was what a

8:52

story what a that was, what a, what

8:54

a, just it's just so beautiful

8:56

beautiful. Yeah, the Nintendo 64

8:58

era was was really magical.

9:01

Like, just like if you go

9:03

back and look you go back and

9:05

look at some of those games. today, not just

9:07

Not just like playing them, but

9:10

just but at the like looking some

9:12

wild stuff there, like absolutely crazy. wild

9:14

stuff there, you could

9:16

go from crazy deep into

9:18

the go from deep into

9:20

the kind of Nintendo.

9:22

vibe, you know, you know, the classic Nintendo

9:25

thing all the way out all the know.

9:27

out to like, you know, Shadows of

9:29

the Empire or You

9:31

know, like, you really wide. wide

9:33

range of games games that still thing

9:36

for Nintendo today, but it really

9:38

felt like it really felt

9:40

like that the N64 really

9:42

that. that up that up and

9:44

that's kind of like the model the

9:46

model that we we see

9:49

today with Nintendo, It's really, really

9:51

like, like, Crazy

9:53

magical time for games. Yeah, it

9:55

is the it is. The magic has never

9:57

gone away, which is such a fun feeling. to

10:00

know that you can still turn on

10:02

in. A, they still work, so that

10:04

shows you about the craftsmanship at the

10:07

time of technology. Like mine still works

10:09

just fine, haven't had to replace a

10:11

part, and it's been a long time.

10:13

And the magic is still there, like

10:16

the presentation of every piece of that

10:18

console, and then all the way to

10:20

what you're playing now, right? Like you

10:23

turn on the switch, the magic is

10:25

still there. And it's not just Nintendo.

10:27

it's probably pretty juvenile but even opening

10:29

steam feels magical sometimes like I don't

10:32

care that it's a interface to sell

10:34

me games like I love it I

10:36

just love going through I love looking

10:38

I love looking at what's out there

10:41

and that maybe makes me a good

10:43

little consumer but I like buying games

10:45

and I like playing games and I

10:48

like playing games and I always have

10:50

although I didn't used to buy them

10:52

that was where the divorce came in

10:54

so yeah one of my most prized

10:57

possessions is my original Golden Eye cartridge

10:59

that's 100% unlocked, completely completed. Got decay

11:01

mode, painful mode, you got everyone. Yeah,

11:03

it's all in there. Yeah, I love

11:06

that. Okay, so, so, so where did

11:08

the idea that you could actually also

11:10

create games come from for you? I

11:13

would have to say it was probably

11:15

the last part of the puzzle because

11:17

the journey, you know, like I'm a

11:19

Canadian, I mean, I didn't grow up

11:22

in Toronto, I grew up just outside

11:24

of Toronto, so it wasn't a small

11:26

town by any means, but it's not

11:28

like a tech hub, so you know,

11:31

and now that I've traveled the world

11:33

more with this career, I've seen what

11:35

a tech hub looks like, and I'm

11:38

like, I couldn't imagine having grown up

11:40

somewhere like this, like you would have

11:42

known right away, or you would have

11:44

just had more access, but... when I

11:47

was picking my university from my high

11:49

school, like I had a guidance counselor

11:51

and I was not really sure what

11:53

I wanted to do or what I

11:56

could do. with a

11:58

university because, you know,

12:00

you know that's of. the pipeline

12:02

is you Once you graduate high school, you go

12:04

to you go to that's what that's what

12:06

your you. which both of mine

12:08

did. of mine I I had I had played my played games

12:11

all through high school, like my my lunch breaks,

12:13

we would come back to my house and

12:15

play my Xbox 360. Cause actually when I

12:17

was, when I I was 15 or 16, I

12:19

was in a football pool with my dad

12:21

and his friends. And I ended up winning

12:23

it, like an NFL pool. I And I

12:25

got like a thousand bucks something. So for like

12:27

a 15 year old girl, I was like,

12:29

girl I was So I went to the to the

12:31

store and I bought an Xbox 360 360

12:33

and a like a 19 inch TV TV. was And that

12:35

was what I bought with my money

12:37

because I finally had like a lump sum.

12:39

sum and I was one of the was one of

12:41

the only friends that had their own that they

12:43

call their own so we would go

12:45

to my house to my would play whatever we

12:47

wanted all the time And so I was I

12:49

was always doing something like that when I would I

12:52

would talk to my guidance counselors about what

12:54

I I to do, to I had always always

12:56

wanted it to be a little bit

12:58

more more in that realm, either art of of video

13:00

games or something, the business I I wasn't

13:02

sure because I didn't know what the

13:04

options were. options were. And I guess of the

13:06

of the universities had started a

13:09

new program called which is or

13:11

MIT. which is not related to the Boston

13:13

MIT. And it And it was just sort

13:15

of like a media and entertainment.

13:17

degree that ended up being like an

13:19

arts degree. ended up being like an

13:21

arts degree. But at the end of the

13:23

day, you could really specialize into video

13:25

games like things like that. So hoped I just

13:27

applied and hoped I got in. I did.

13:30

the And when I got to the

13:32

actual university itself, you know, moved into the

13:34

dorm. brought my xbox 360 brought

13:36

my TV, tried to to figure out

13:38

what kind of clubs there were for video

13:40

games and what the options were and I

13:42

just kind of started I just kind of

13:44

started. out what I could actually

13:46

do. What skills did I have did I have,

13:48

could I learn to to code of, you matter of

13:50

you know Four years or anything and it

13:53

didn't really for me, but I fit for me,

13:55

but I kept looking at where the industry was

13:57

going, what was going on on the business

13:59

side, I remember. in my and then like

14:01

that's where the story starts

14:03

to take off for the

14:06

digital extreme side so I

14:08

don't want to go there

14:10

yet but all things considered

14:12

it was a conscious pursuit

14:14

of something orbiting games and

14:17

that's what every decision I

14:19

made as a high school

14:21

student leaning into a university

14:23

had come from. Yeah I

14:26

mean it's hard to I

14:28

mean not now. but it

14:30

used to be a lot

14:32

harder to go to school

14:34

for video games. Or even

14:37

like, you know, I think

14:39

I'm a generation ahead of

14:41

you and there that didn't

14:43

exist when I was coming

14:46

up. You know, I started

14:48

in QA and that that

14:50

was that was game school.

14:52

That was games. Yep. Yeah.

14:54

It's really, I actually kind

14:57

of see like, I see

14:59

like a snapback from going

15:01

to game schools now today.

15:03

I think a lot of

15:06

people are taking advantage of

15:08

all the free tools that

15:10

are at our disposal today.

15:12

Yeah, like YouTube tutorials, free

15:14

access to just like tinkering

15:17

and engines and stuff. It's

15:19

just, it's, it's, it's there

15:21

for you if you want

15:23

to do it. It's just

15:26

the difference between the people

15:28

who think they want to

15:30

do it and actually take

15:32

the steps is, you know,

15:34

the difference between people that

15:37

actually can ship a game

15:39

and not, right? Yeah, and

15:41

I think that, and not

15:43

to like, you know, dig

15:46

in on game schools or

15:48

whatever like that, but I

15:50

do mentor a lot of

15:52

young people coming into the

15:54

development world. I've done it

15:57

for a long time and

15:59

my My advice to them

16:01

My advice to them is always the same. If

16:03

If you want to go to go to game There's

16:05

nothing wrong with that. However, with

16:08

that. However, The things that they

16:10

teach you in game school in really

16:12

the things. really you

16:14

need for a career in

16:16

the industry. in the industry. Like,

16:19

And that that could be a whole other podcast

16:21

other Oh, absolutely it could, yeah. Oh,

16:23

absolutely. It could, yeah. But, you

16:25

you know, there's a whole a whole, like. There's

16:30

a whole level about whole through.

16:34

a game development studio and a

16:36

job that you kind of don't

16:38

get from. that you from game schools.

16:40

don't get from from game

16:42

My advice and My to

16:44

game schools not go young

16:46

developers, to these young really

16:49

understand. Really what you

16:51

want to do first you then do first

16:53

and that that with

16:56

some education because

16:58

because there's no I I

17:00

don't really believe there's...

17:02

any any experience.

17:04

than making a game. Like I

17:06

don't, like whether game like

17:08

I don't like whether it's just on

17:10

your your own thing gonna get more out

17:12

you're going to get more out of that

17:14

than. thing. Like the things they

17:17

thing like the things they should

17:19

also probably teaching. Yeah, it's a a craft and

17:21

it's to school for four years to learn

17:23

how to be an author instead of to be

17:25

a chapter, you know, actually

17:27

writing a a craft know, like it's

17:29

very much. Yeah, I I

17:31

certainly wouldn't comment on anything that I know

17:33

I I didn't go to a game school

17:35

I went to school. degree school that had

17:37

had started that had and business about

17:39

the video games industry Like I didn't

17:41

learn how to make games there I learned

17:43

about like make games there. I learned you know in 1990,

17:45

like those types of things those types of was

17:47

all foundational and the expectation wasn't that

17:50

you would learn how to make games. It

17:52

was just that you would understand things,

17:54

which we'll get to, because it actually turned

17:56

out to get me a job at

17:58

DE. because it actually turned out to get me a job at D. But

18:00

yeah, you're totally, yeah, I completely

18:02

agree. It's about the craft for

18:05

a lot of what makes a

18:07

game a game. So, you know,

18:09

speaking of DE, you're kind of

18:12

getting there in your arc. You

18:14

have a really interesting arc at

18:17

DE. I, in my research, that

18:19

seems to be your only job.

18:21

And which is really cool because

18:24

the game industry is very nomadic,

18:26

you know, I've had 100 jobs

18:29

in my career. And I'm grateful

18:31

for that because you get different

18:33

experiences other places and that was

18:36

my particular path. But I love

18:38

talking to people who have done

18:41

the classic, you know. I started

18:43

in the mail room and now

18:45

I run the company. I love

18:48

that career arc. So going over

18:50

going over your your your history

18:53

with digital extremes and we can

18:55

we'll talk about how you got

18:57

there but it's really interesting. So

19:00

you looks like you've been at

19:02

digital extremes for about eight years

19:05

at this point. Oh, no, no,

19:07

14. I started in 2011 as

19:09

an intern. So I, yeah, I.

19:12

I have worked there since January

19:14

2011, so coming up on January,

19:17

it will have been 14 years.

19:19

Okay, my numbers are off, but

19:21

I have all of your, I

19:24

have your, your hero arc, which

19:26

is really cool. Yeah, the mail

19:29

room, the unpaid, yeah, starting as

19:31

a studio assistant. Yep, right. I

19:33

was unpaid intern in 2011. And

19:36

now I'm Creative Director of Warframe.

19:38

So it was very much, I

19:40

remember after my, yeah, anyway, I'm

19:43

not sure, yeah, I am so

19:45

happy to talk about any of

19:48

that and lessons along the way,

19:50

but this, the, the time span

19:52

for it started in 2020. 2011,

19:55

which is where

19:57

the university comes

20:00

in. comes in. it

20:02

was it was 2011,

20:04

January was my first

20:06

day Digital as an intern

20:08

and now here we are

20:10

and now here we up on

20:12

14 years coming up on 14 years

20:14

more interesting. even more interesting. Apologies

20:16

for not not getting that number but

20:18

getting right, but I do have, but I don't

20:21

but I don't want to gloss over

20:23

all the interesting things he did in did

20:25

in between. Also, so he started as an

20:27

unpaid assistant. and your

20:29

way up your way up to

20:31

community manager? and

20:34

then. then you You went

20:36

into live ops and community

20:38

production. production then then leveled

20:40

up to live ops and ops

20:42

and community director and now

20:45

and now director. the creative director

20:47

of that's just. And

20:49

That's such an just, that's to

20:51

tell. story to tell. So

20:54

hear how. hear you

20:56

went from from. this kind of

20:58

university vibe learning

21:00

about the about the. the

21:02

kind of historical foundation

21:04

of video games. got to digital how

21:07

you got to digital extremes. it's an mean, I

21:09

hope it's an awesome story and I

21:11

do it. It It is an awesome story. People that

21:13

are listening have patience with it, but

21:15

I'll do my best to I'll do my best the

21:17

like the like journey here

21:19

here and pumpkin with an you

21:21

know GTA you that small, isn't

21:23

but that small but as I was as I

21:25

was you know my studies at school. at

21:28

school, I had third year where you get

21:30

a little bit more electives more electives and

21:32

those electives require you to write papers, you

21:34

can kind of start writing them on

21:36

whatever you want. them on of them was about,

21:39

you know, like one ownership. about, So some

21:41

people would write them about So some people disputes

21:43

with labels and, you know, having what kind

21:45

of case studies are out there. you And

21:47

I actually did mine on, are out there.

21:49

And I the call of duty

21:51

battle the call of know battle of, you know, who

21:53

owned, like, when you know, Ward and, I

21:55

wrote my paper on that

21:57

case study and what the the

22:00

ruled. and how I felt about, you know,

22:02

the artists coming back and making a

22:04

new studio, like the Vince Ampella and

22:06

everything. So I had written that. Yeah,

22:08

that's so interesting. Just like anecdotally, I

22:10

was working at EA on Medal of

22:13

Honor, one of my first days working

22:15

there, everyone from Medal of Honor quit

22:17

to go do the. you know, the

22:19

Reese, the infinity ward and respond, all

22:21

that. Oh my God. It was a

22:23

wild, a wild day. It's all convicted.

22:25

Like, why is everyone lined up going

22:28

in this office one by one and

22:30

then leaving? Like, what the hell is

22:32

going on there? So yeah, meanwhile I'm

22:34

sitting there in London, Ontario, Canada, like

22:36

trying to hit a deadline for my

22:38

essay. So I passed university. And yeah,

22:41

that was my case study that I

22:43

wanted to do. And I turned it

22:45

in. And my T.A. who was grading

22:47

it, so you get like broken out

22:49

into different T.A. groups randomly. So there's

22:51

100 students, 10 TAs, 10 per class.

22:54

So by, you know, luck of the

22:56

draw, my T.A. looked at my paper

22:58

and said, can I use this in

23:00

my research? And I asked them why,

23:02

just because I wanted to know, like,

23:04

was I in trouble? Like, what's going

23:06

on? And they said, oh, I actually

23:09

work at a local video game company.

23:11

me being me, I was like, oh,

23:13

can I have a job? And they

23:15

said, they said, I'll give you an

23:17

email to reach out to. And then

23:19

I realized at that time that there

23:22

actually was an internship program that I

23:24

didn't know about within my university that

23:26

I was at. And I kind of

23:28

expedited myself through, said, hey, I think

23:30

I could have like an unpaid internship

23:32

if I just do all the work

23:35

to get through it officially, so I

23:37

get a credit. I'll drop a course,

23:39

I'll do it as a credit, and

23:41

away you go. And within, I think,

23:43

two or three weeks, it was all

23:45

ready to go. I was gonna drop

23:48

a course for the January term, I

23:50

was just gonna go and be an

23:52

intern and do whatever I possibly could

23:54

to get my foot in the door.

23:56

So, started with the paper, I was

23:58

nosy. enough to ask why and then

24:00

the rest kind of started that January

24:03

2011 where I walked into my first

24:05

ever video game studio never knowing that

24:07

it existed in this town I'm in

24:09

and I have not left from that

24:11

day on so that's how I got

24:13

in that was it it was but

24:16

I think what I've learned from that

24:18

is You can be the smartest person,

24:20

which I am not, but luck really

24:22

plays such a huge factor, right place,

24:24

right time, right anything. You know, like

24:26

it's just because if I didn't get

24:29

put in that T.A. group, it never

24:31

would have happened. If I didn't write

24:33

a paper about what was going on

24:35

with infinity ward and respond, it never

24:37

would happen. So it was, you know,

24:39

so many different cosmic elements to that

24:41

one moment and that one time. And

24:44

now it has defined the past 13,

24:46

now going on 14 years of my

24:48

years of my life. You know, I

24:50

could have studied so hard and who

24:52

knows where I would have ended up.

24:54

But if that one single thing didn't

24:57

happen. That's amazing. So you walk into

24:59

the studio. Yeah. Why died? Completely. Just,

25:01

you know, I think I had come

25:03

from a class that day, you know,

25:05

I was still studying. I hadn't finished

25:07

my degree yet, which is also important.

25:10

I was because this was third year

25:12

and I had a whole fourth year

25:14

ahead of me. So, you know, I

25:16

walk in and I just wonder, like,

25:18

what am I'm going to do. What

25:20

will they have me do that will

25:22

show that they should keep me? Like

25:25

what is it? What am I going

25:27

to do to convince this team that

25:29

clearly doesn't need a third year unpaid

25:31

intern to accomplish any of their business

25:33

goals, but what would they need? And

25:35

I just started asking, started talking to

25:38

the group that sort of were mentoring

25:40

me, which was are more on the

25:42

business side. There was an operations team

25:44

of one person that was sort of

25:46

running that just What was it to

25:48

be a digital extremes company? We were

25:51

work we were work for hire by

25:53

that point the darkness too was in

25:55

development not out yet and more projects

25:57

to come. after that in

25:59

traditional publisher, you you

26:01

know, that very nice

26:03

space that no exists

26:06

of, know, you know, A games, games, you

26:08

could say. what it was. And what it was,

26:10

and that's what the studio is doing. you

26:12

know, I would get know, I would get pulled

26:14

in as a focus tester so they can

26:16

watch me play darkness Darkness too you know. try

26:18

see you I thought about it, about

26:20

it, and figured out and then I of wasn't

26:22

really sure what to do. You know, know,

26:25

I do? I can't. can't. I don't don't

26:27

have enough time to learn a

26:29

specific craft I I still was

26:31

studying. I would, at that would, at that

26:33

time, I thought, oh, your Let pretty

26:35

old. Let me redo your corporate

26:37

website. So I took that on

26:39

as a project to sort of

26:41

rebrand them just just redo their

26:43

corporate website. for recruiting for recruiting purposes

26:45

or other things at that time was things

26:47

at that time launch party like,

26:49

planning the launch party for sure that there

26:52

making sure that there was something at that

26:54

at that time we actually had... had. real

26:56

launch parties because games would launch and

26:58

not just launch a service for the game years

27:00

of my life now. 12 years of my milestones

27:02

those types of I could. just And then

27:04

I started working on game pitches,

27:06

which was really odd which fun. odd and fun.

27:08

Like, we need a pitch or like like

27:11

doing animatics, like ripping DVDs and trying

27:13

to put like to put like potential things

27:15

and writing game pitches and it was

27:17

all very pitches. And it was all very what I would

27:19

be working on on a given day,

27:21

but I did it and day, but I did

27:23

really hard, really hard. So in

27:25

that kind of initial that

27:27

kind of initial. when when did the light

27:30

go on where you're the light

27:32

go on well like? it's January

27:34

to April was this

27:36

and then as as January to April

27:38

was the term. And closer I had on

27:40

the calendar started inching closer, I

27:42

had this sense of dread that

27:44

if I don't... just have

27:47

make a case for myself, just have this as my

27:49

out job, I'll be out the door because

27:51

my internship was a four month placement,

27:53

so. so my opportunity to. to.

27:55

to sort of secure something. was

27:57

gonna end at that April 2011

27:59

date. date. So I think I pitched pretty

28:01

hard to say that, you know,

28:03

why don't I stay here as

28:06

a summer job? I'm free all

28:08

summer. I don't need to leave

28:10

London and go back and live

28:12

with my mom. I can just

28:14

stay here. I have a place

28:16

to live and maybe you could

28:18

pay me. Maybe we could come

28:20

agree on an hourly rate, perhaps.

28:22

So we did. I think at

28:24

that time, my manager was happy

28:26

to have an extra set of

28:28

hands just for truly anything. And

28:30

so I stayed and I stayed

28:32

for that summer. And then I

28:34

took my hours down again as

28:37

the school year resumed so I

28:39

could finish my degree. But by

28:41

then I kind of felt like,

28:43

oh, I'm pretty sure that when

28:45

I graduate, they'll take me on

28:47

full time if we just continue

28:49

the way we're going, which is

28:51

just, you know, realizing that I

28:53

can help and I can contribute

28:55

and I can sort of bring

28:57

a, a, a, a, a, a,

28:59

a gamer slant to a, work

29:01

for hire company because I was

29:03

really into like gaming communities at

29:05

the time. So it started in

29:07

my fourth year school to turn

29:10

into something that looked a little

29:12

bit like warframe. So that because

29:14

the timeline is such that 2012

29:16

is when warframe started in earnest

29:18

as a holy shit moment, which

29:20

the story the story goes and

29:22

the experience I lived is It

29:24

was March 2012 and the Warframe

29:26

Alpha started coming together because we

29:28

had ran out of payroll because

29:30

all of our work for hire

29:32

projects had stopped and we didn't

29:34

have a thing and you know

29:36

that the senior folks on the

29:38

team were going to try and

29:40

pitch Warframe to different publishers in

29:43

Asia and everyone kind of said

29:45

no no no. So the self

29:47

publishing became a reality in that

29:49

March 2012. span, which is my

29:51

lot. Yeah, anyway, so I was

29:53

finishing school and I knew I

29:55

was going to stay on because

29:57

I can do whatever it takes

29:59

to self-publish because none of us

30:01

knew how to do it for

30:03

the first time ever. So there

30:05

was an equal playing field where

30:07

no one on the team knew

30:09

how to self-publish. all. No one

30:11

knew how to run live service.

30:14

No one knew how to do

30:16

any of that. So it became

30:18

a very small strike team on

30:20

trying to figure out what that

30:22

looked like, which is where this

30:24

was this was 2012. So gosh,

30:26

is that just just a game

30:28

in a box? Or no warframe.

30:30

In terms of what? Sorry. Where

30:32

are you publishing to? Oh, mine.

30:34

So Xbox Live Arcade had inspired

30:36

our dear Steve Sinclair, who's currently

30:38

our CEO now. He was looking

30:40

at Xbox Live Arcade, and I

30:42

think it was Super Monday Night

30:44

Combat, had really, and like the

30:47

whole Xbox Live arcade. Yeah, and

30:49

he loved it. He's like, oh,

30:51

like, what if we did something

30:53

like that? What if we tried

30:55

to do a self-published online games

30:57

similar to what was going on

30:59

on Xbox Live Arcade? But God

31:01

only knows how. So that's when

31:03

the plan started coming together was,

31:05

we'll make warframe, we'll make this

31:07

free to play, had to be

31:09

free thing, and we will just

31:11

distribute it and launch it and

31:13

just put it online only. Like

31:15

we'll put it somewhere and see

31:17

what happens. And by so March.

31:20

No partners, just fully, we're doing

31:22

this on our own. We're doing

31:24

it on our own. No partners.

31:26

So, and this is where, like,

31:28

again, I'd rather be lucky than

31:30

good any day, because I had

31:32

already done the project of relaunting

31:34

the digital extremes.com website, I was

31:36

like, oh, I can take the

31:38

website of this, like, just leave

31:40

it with me, folks. I can,

31:42

oh, we leave it with me,

31:44

folks. I can, oh, we're with

31:46

self-published. Well, we're going to need

31:48

a website. And I just worked

31:51

with a team on relaunching the

31:53

corporate website, was signups and downloads

31:55

and a little bit of information

31:57

about the game, which felt pretty

31:59

manageable. Players make an account. Either

32:01

they get in or they don't. They get

32:03

access to a they get access to a Can

32:05

they log in or can they not log in?

32:07

or can they was all it was at first. all it

32:09

was just and started there. then it

32:11

was, oh, if we're self it we're

32:13

going to need some type of support

32:15

desk to need problems in some type of

32:17

forum software there's We want people to

32:19

talk about the type that's where the

32:21

whole software, if want people to talk about the game. went,

32:23

I don't know, I went to

32:25

see how do you do your

32:28

own support from, on this software called called

32:30

Zen we signed up. I think I was...

32:32

I think and a couple of the other guys. of

32:34

the the only the only support

32:36

agent for the first many, you know,

32:38

weeks and and months of the game

32:40

until enough had enough that up. to scale

32:43

that up, from other departments people

32:45

from other departments and know

32:47

it's starting to sound a little like

32:49

he went from a story he went

32:51

happening. story to now everything's

32:54

happening really interesting, really

32:56

I love, Like I love like Like

33:00

desperation and not not

33:02

knowing what you're doing

33:04

always leads innovation and and

33:06

results. just it. just it.

33:08

It was desperation because we had already done

33:10

a round of layoffs done we had no

33:12

idea what we were doing and those

33:14

elements together were the timing those to

33:16

that with the of

33:18

to that having its first executable

33:20

out in the wild in an alpha

33:22

state by October. out in the wild in

33:25

an That's when it hit. by October.

33:27

So That's incredible. it hit. Yeah, it

33:29

it was wild. I think the game is

33:31

still going today. today. And that's the

33:33

the thing. So like, I know my was

33:35

made, my my public. cluster account account

33:37

was made September 2012. So I always look at that

33:39

as, you always look at that as,

33:41

you know, my birthday because I had I had

33:43

to test the website on the public cluster to

33:45

see if I could make an account so I'm

33:48

like the third I'm like the third account in

33:50

warframe ever maybe fourth. I think a

33:52

couple couple QA folk in our director got in first,

33:54

but I had to test those things

33:56

as well. things as well. that's when it

33:58

started for me. That's when everything

34:01

became real because we had the

34:03

ability to log into a game

34:06

that had been put together in

34:08

a matter of months from March,

34:10

I think was our first commit

34:13

and perforce-ish, and then to August

34:15

it was out there in a

34:18

very alpha state to registration only.

34:20

Wow. So that's 2012, right? Yes,

34:22

that's right. Yeah, right. I

34:24

first learned about warframe. on the

34:27

PlayStation 4 in 2013. And I

34:29

have very vivid memories of, oh,

34:32

PlayStation 4 is amazing, but there's

34:34

not much here. Hey, Warframe. Warframe

34:36

looks cool, let's play that. And

34:39

it was super fun. We play

34:41

a lot back then. And it's

34:44

been interesting kind of watching Warframe.

34:46

kind of continue to exist. Like

34:48

I said at the beginning, I

34:51

haven't played in a very long

34:53

time and actually went back yesterday

34:56

and looked at a bunch of

34:58

videos from from PlayStation 4 on

35:00

YouTube to see the evolution of

35:03

war frame and is truly remarkable.

35:05

But I want to jump back

35:08

and and talk about the way

35:10

you've kind of leveled up still

35:12

like so we're yeah we're we're

35:15

kind of moving into your live

35:17

ops journey in the arc so

35:20

to speak so warframe is out

35:22

it's doing its thing like like

35:24

how did how did you take

35:27

take that initiative from the games

35:29

out initially out I remember when

35:32

it came out I remember when

35:34

it came out Oh. really interesting

35:36

reviews about the game just like

35:39

oh yes it was like it

35:41

was like this it was a

35:44

real like I just kind of

35:46

saw warframe and see it to

35:48

where it is now which is

35:51

like this amazing thing but there's

35:53

an underdog story there complete underdog

35:56

story and I still feel like

35:58

you I never lost that feeling

36:00

and neither did the team

36:02

and of course Yeah, I'm happy

36:05

to tell about all the bruises

36:07

along that journey because it was.

36:10

Yeah, yeah, talk about that. Yeah,

36:12

so I think the, because Warframe

36:14

has had this drawn out arc

36:17

with a team that has stayed

36:19

so tightly focused on trying to

36:22

do it ourselves and trying to

36:24

do it right, we've been very

36:26

lean, we've been very frugal, we've

36:29

been very, uh, you know very

36:31

quick with our updates you know

36:34

it's always like what are we

36:36

doing next let's go and the

36:38

team has grown to support warframe

36:41

over the years you know we

36:43

started with like you know double

36:46

digits people and now we're triple

36:48

triple digits as a team

36:50

and I mean the team are

36:52

my like the team that make

36:55

this game are it's because of

36:57

them that I'm even here on

37:00

this you know chatting with you

37:02

with my journey because it all

37:04

happened like we've all helped each

37:07

other so much level up along

37:09

the way but we've been able

37:12

to do it slowly which is

37:14

slowly which is a very different

37:16

experience than releasing something now because

37:19

I didn't understand anything. None of

37:21

us did. So in 2013, we

37:24

said, ah, okay, we're ready to

37:26

launch on steam. So March 2013,

37:28

we went out of closed beta

37:31

to open beta. Let's launch on

37:33

steam. So that in itself is

37:36

a huge milestone for anyone

37:38

getting their game out on steam.

37:40

But that was really the beginning

37:42

of our journey because that happened.

37:45

Most signups we ever got that

37:47

day, you know March 2013 that

37:50

opened beta moment and then like

37:52

influencers really started being a thing

37:54

so also in that moment we

37:57

had Total Biscuit do a video

37:59

on WTF is warframe, which also

38:02

was sort of a double, like to

38:04

was sort of a double. an objective way

38:06

as it. to in an

38:08

objective way. let us as we're trying to figure

38:10

out what will let us keep making beats You

38:13

got those two beats together the

38:15

then you get the PlayStation 4 launch

38:17

title in the same year. So we,

38:19

like, so these things, things, everyone's story is story

38:21

is different, but our story has

38:23

been one of of endurance experiencing the

38:25

highs and lows. lows of games as as a

38:27

service over such a long period of

38:30

time. influencers like I like

38:32

I think TV had had just rebranded to

38:34

Twitch so we were on So we were on

38:36

the new everyone is whereas now everyone is

38:38

kind of expected to do something on

38:40

Twitch. And we know they're you know, they're

38:42

early doing weird things and then we were

38:44

on and then then we had the influencers and then

38:46

we had the we launch. launch So

38:49

it's all so spaced out, and we can

38:51

make so many mistakes along the way,

38:53

but also learn so many valuable things

38:55

about what it is we're even making

38:57

because we didn't really know yet what

38:59

Warframe was going to be. really

39:01

one would have predicted what we have today. to That's

39:03

for sure, because we always look at each other

39:06

and we're like, what the hell? Like how did

39:08

we get so lucky? How are we still doing

39:10

this? we always look been experienced over

39:12

such a long duration of time

39:14

that none of our losses have

39:16

been fatal blows, which isn't the

39:18

case today, right? if you launch

39:20

a live service game today, you're

39:22

expected to be on expected you're

39:24

expected to do an influencer campaign, you're

39:27

expected to have like stability

39:29

in your you're expected to

39:31

have perfect like stability in database,

39:33

and that's all

39:35

expected. perfect live operations

39:38

And we got to do it. immediately.

39:41

And we got to do it the long way

39:43

while we may have had a thousand

39:45

cuts. cuts. they all happened over such a

39:47

long time that the scar tissue

39:49

has just continued to build up for

39:51

us to be able to not

39:53

be not fatal blow blow negative steam score

39:56

or some type of like influencer

39:58

sentiment that that can I think think be terminal.

40:00

to a game's launch. So that's

40:02

sort of an observation, I would

40:04

say. Well, an observation of the

40:06

scary truth about watching video games

40:08

in 2024 and beyond. There's so

40:11

many more things you have to

40:13

be cognizant of and up on.

40:15

Like, it's not just make a

40:17

game and put a game out.

40:20

Just like, you know. It starts

40:22

a year before it even comes

40:24

out, right? It's a very, it's

40:26

a very time consuming effort that,

40:29

you know, when you're in it

40:31

and you're making a game, like,

40:33

sometimes it just feels like, is

40:35

this even necessary? Like, of course,

40:38

necessary. It's the video game business.

40:40

It's a product where our goal

40:42

is to bring players in and

40:44

have them stay and enjoy this

40:47

awesome game we're making. But it

40:49

is a, it is a grind

40:51

and getting, you know, I'm specifically

40:53

talking about today right now, but

40:56

like, you know, not being able

40:58

to experience the thousand cuts and

41:00

having to just like do all

41:02

this stuff in the run up

41:05

and then basically have like a

41:07

day when it comes out before

41:09

the judgment is handed down in

41:11

your. You have tomorrow or you

41:14

don't like it's so true. It's

41:16

a grind and you have that

41:18

one day and that is yeah,

41:20

you have described the existential crisis

41:23

of the industry right now, you

41:25

know, and you see it every

41:27

single day. Yep. Yeah, it's very.

41:29

It can be like emotionally crippling

41:32

and debilitating to have to think

41:34

about like I have poured my

41:36

heart and soul and soul and

41:38

my team has done this. you

41:41

know, we all done it together

41:43

into this thing. And it's over.

41:45

It's over. And it's so complicated

41:47

and we could certainly do another

41:50

podcast just about this because it's

41:52

a very difficult thing to watch

41:54

to participate in. And I again

41:56

will take luck over being good

41:59

any day because we've been through

42:01

all of it. It's just been

42:03

so. It's been absorbed by our

42:05

time of being like our every

42:08

for every day you're alive. It's

42:10

as a game. It's like you

42:12

get you buy yourself one extra

42:14

day of grace for like absorbing

42:17

failures. And it's this weird like

42:19

linear survival rate of okay. So

42:21

since war frame has been around

42:23

for all these years, if we

42:26

have a major, am I allowed

42:28

to swear on this? Yeah, okay,

42:30

okay. If we have like a

42:32

major fuck up, rebounding. Rebounding. is

42:35

the immediately assumed behavior. Like people

42:37

assume that if we do something

42:39

like we really miss, well, they'll

42:41

come back and they'll fix it

42:44

soon. Like the immediate, you get

42:46

the benefit of the doubt, you

42:48

get the assumption because someone has

42:50

some good memory about something we

42:53

did as a team. So surely

42:55

we'll pull ourselves out of it.

42:57

So that is a lucky thing.

42:59

That's a lucky situation to be

43:02

in. And it's a situation that

43:04

can run out of luck real

43:06

fast because if you decline continuously.

43:08

you start to see the curve

43:11

go down, we're like, oh, they're

43:13

out of goodwill days, right? And

43:15

you don't have that if you're

43:17

a day one title and all

43:20

of the little pieces that make

43:22

you, you know, sink or swim,

43:24

don't go your way. But with

43:26

Warframe, we, as the years went

43:29

on, we started to build up

43:31

a really clear understanding of, oh,

43:33

we'll just talk about the next

43:35

update we're planning, and then people

43:38

will see if it's for them

43:40

or not. they can just come

43:42

back for the next update. So

43:44

because we were on Justin TV

43:47

now, Twitch TV, so really in

43:49

our, and which is one of

43:51

the things as a team, we're

43:53

like, oh, we should do a

43:56

developer live stream, make it feel

43:58

like Wayne's world, and just kind

44:00

of go with it. Don't really

44:02

plan much other than show up,

44:05

talk about the game, answer some

44:07

questions, so we have a really

44:09

good signal to noise responsiveness. So

44:11

we registered our Twitch account, and

44:14

we went live February 2013, and

44:16

we still, every month, every week,

44:18

stream on that account, and it's

44:20

been. a long time over a

44:23

decade as like doing developer stuff

44:25

on twitch and treating it like

44:27

a craft. And that helped us

44:29

really early on because we could

44:32

go, we could say, hey, we

44:34

have a brand new hero warframe

44:36

coming. Like stay tuned, it's going

44:38

to be themed like a berserker.

44:40

And then suddenly you have an

44:43

audience for your next update that

44:45

is really just an idea on

44:47

paper. And then you just, you

44:49

realize it works and then you

44:52

keep doing it. And now our

44:54

Dev Streams have become just a

44:56

completely. different animal in terms of

44:58

the health of the game because

45:01

they people tune in. Do they

45:03

like what we're planning? Yeah, they

45:05

do tune in. The dev streams

45:07

were a constant thing that came

45:10

up when I was doing my

45:12

research for this for this podcast

45:14

episode. People love those. And there

45:16

is, I didn't dive too much

45:19

into it, but there is a

45:21

sentiment that it's like... this

45:24

long-running loose home comfort thing

45:26

that Doesn't really take itself

45:29

too seriously, but it's you

45:31

know, and I I admire

45:34

that because You know with

45:36

when big AAA games Not

45:39

that warframe isn't a big

45:41

triple-a game. That's not what

45:43

I'm saying. We're not we're

45:46

totally not well There's an

45:48

argument there that for sure

45:51

it could be on the

45:53

other side. It's definitely like

45:56

straddling the line. But you

45:58

know, like... a

46:01

a huge AAA

46:03

live service you know. you

46:05

know, those, it's hard to

46:07

be It's hard to be loose. with

46:11

in those situations line. so

46:13

much on the line.

46:15

just noting that that's something

46:17

that that really something that

46:20

seems really... your loved

46:22

among your community. that. And

46:24

it, you know, it's it you know,

46:26

it's interesting because because it absolutely.

46:29

lines up with your career up

46:31

with That's, that was it. That your

46:34

career do community. And, you know, you're, like, That

46:36

was all I could do, so much on the line is

46:38

such truth being we with so much on

46:40

the line is such a truth on the line,

46:42

but we had so much on the line,

46:44

but we had to be honest with

46:46

the community no, we had no, no we

46:48

had no publisher it it was them

46:50

funding us. So Waynes World shareholder call where we were like,

46:52

call you like, it you know, you guys

46:54

didn't like what we did with our we

46:57

did with our upgrade system, So by Q2, like we

46:59

never said. like said but Q2, to mock

47:01

the process, mock know. you'd say like, we're

47:03

completely changing it. And here's what you can

47:05

completely that's, that's been it. here's what

47:07

you can look forward to

47:09

times that's, that's been it.

47:11

So were there I know this happens with

47:13

every video game, but like, since

47:16

we're talking video game, but like since

47:18

we're talking about, not being

47:20

beholden to anyone and just to

47:22

anyone and to your audience who

47:24

are into your audience who are your

47:26

investors, you You know, how did,

47:28

how did that kind of connection

47:31

and real kind of, you know,

47:33

honest connection with the kind

47:35

of, you know, honest connection with

47:38

the audience has the game. influenced

47:40

by those early The game

47:42

has been heavily influenced by

47:44

those early decisions on being very

47:46

transparent. I think it's

47:48

very difficult just an it's just

47:50

an observation of it's it's difficult

47:52

to start established then become transparent

47:54

because it just, it has a

47:56

different a to it. Whereas we

47:58

were we were we were struggling. we did we

48:00

did turn on the live camera

48:03

and it was it was just

48:05

real and it's it always has

48:07

been real it's always been what

48:09

we thought allowed us to make

48:11

the game was just getting in

48:14

front of our players and showing

48:16

them what we're working on showing

48:18

them behind the scenes answering questions

48:20

and it's really not anything other

48:23

than that it's just being consistent

48:25

at first we've definitely done a

48:27

few less step streams over the

48:29

years, either due to COVID or

48:31

just like the obviously the change

48:34

of the guard when we started

48:36

a second project, but that early

48:38

transparency and the commitment to it

48:40

and it really created a sense

48:42

of scheduling that I don't think

48:45

we were aware was necessary for

48:47

a live service game. So, you

48:49

know, of course we have like

48:51

we have production, we have everyone's

48:53

working towards the next update, but

48:56

when you put it in front

48:58

of your investors who that's truly

49:00

what they were like there's it's

49:02

not even a metaphor those in

49:04

people that were investing in the

49:07

game and paying our salaries when

49:09

you realize that the expectations are

49:11

starting to sort of become I

49:13

guess I don't want to say

49:16

manageable expectations but like it's very

49:18

obvious that they expect us to

49:20

make shit good and make it

49:22

often we're able to use the

49:24

Devstream cadence to build out. what

49:27

our release ambitions were. So it

49:29

kind of helped us get our

49:31

shit together and pick a way

49:33

to deliver warframe on a reliable

49:35

way for our players to enjoy

49:38

it. And it sounds so obvious

49:40

and I'm starting to wonder if

49:42

it even makes sense, but I

49:44

think the point I'm making is

49:46

having an audience that's engaged because

49:49

you commit to turning on a

49:51

camera creates a scheduling pattern that's

49:53

pretty sustainable. I'll say sustainable, but

49:55

the jury's out on that because

49:57

it is a grind like you

50:00

said. And it just created the

50:02

ability for us to commit to

50:04

actually delivering and being planners. I

50:06

will say, because, you know, that

50:09

the arts and creating a game,

50:11

I'm sure you will have friends,

50:13

I'm sure you yourself, like, oh,

50:15

I'm going to make, I'm going

50:17

to work on this project, it's

50:20

going to be a game that

50:22

has this feature, but like, will

50:24

you ever ship it? Will it

50:26

stay in the drafts? Like, is

50:28

it going to be a thing?

50:31

We were really forced to ship,

50:33

and I've heard going around to

50:35

something called completion urgency. Have you

50:37

talked about this concept, Okay, so

50:39

this is something that I immediately

50:42

understand what it is. I'm super,

50:44

super interested in talking about it.

50:46

Yeah, so you're on board to

50:48

understand that completion urgency. It's like,

50:50

if we didn't have completion urgency,

50:53

we'd be fucked. And the completion

50:55

urgency to, like, show a player

50:57

a piece of concept art and

50:59

then. Now it's like, well, we

51:02

have to fucking make that and

51:04

make that a warframe because they're

51:06

excited. So you get this completion

51:08

urgency to like take all of

51:10

your ideas that you're chatting about

51:13

on the couch over a couple

51:15

Canadian beers. You have to turn

51:17

that into the game. Otherwise, people

51:19

will stop showing up. They'll stop

51:21

trusting you. So it was a

51:24

forcing function for this concept of

51:26

completion urgency, which is very often

51:28

what you see lacking in. other

51:30

projects in the industry and it's

51:32

not that's not a criticism. It's

51:35

like a guy I do believe

51:37

it's like if you don't have

51:39

the urgency to complete it and

51:41

get it out, it's just never

51:43

going to happen and it's gone.

51:46

So completion urgency is an operative

51:48

word for what we do and

51:50

it's like I would now rest

51:52

a lot of my role on

51:55

being that force because the way

51:57

I look at it now is

51:59

I'm the first customer for warframe

52:01

I'm the first person that gets

52:03

to play the update and It

52:06

needs to be complete to do

52:08

that. So that's that's how I

52:10

view the the community graduation into

52:12

creative director as an arc Hey

52:14

music fans. There are some great

52:17

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52:19

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52:21

your favorite venues like Deftones at

52:23

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52:25

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52:28

the Ryman Auditorium. Tickets are going

52:30

fast, so don't wait. Head to

52:32

livenation.com to get your tickets now.

52:34

That's livenation.com. Thank you for making

52:36

that segue more eloquent than I

52:39

would have done it. My pleasure.

52:41

It is interesting to go from

52:43

community director and live ops into

52:45

the creative director role. I don't

52:48

think it's as interesting as I'm

52:50

saying it in your case because

52:52

it makes total sense because it's

52:54

a live service game and you've

52:56

been there from the beginning and

52:59

it actually makes a lot of

53:01

sense. That's where creative directors come

53:03

from in the game industry. And

53:05

this is a big part of

53:07

what I wanted to talk about

53:10

today is like the cult of

53:12

personality around the male creative director

53:14

who has come from the design

53:16

track of making video games. And

53:18

I am that person. Yes, I

53:21

did my research on you and

53:23

I was like, ah, yes. I

53:25

am that person. And I hate

53:27

it. No, I do because there

53:29

is not enough people like you

53:32

doing this role and there are

53:34

people like you in the industry,

53:36

but You don't need that many

53:38

hands to count them Yeah, and

53:41

that has to change it absolutely

53:43

Excuse me has to change because

53:45

I'm gonna make some assumptions here

53:47

not about you about the industry

53:49

and video games. It's like you

53:52

can actually see the cult of

53:54

the male. creative director in the

53:56

output of video games for the

53:58

last 20 years. And of course,

54:00

we do need everyone to have

54:03

the right creative director for the

54:05

right game, but it's so obvious

54:07

and so boring and it's so

54:09

completely needed to have a different

54:11

voice up there doing this. You

54:14

know, one of the reasons I

54:16

do this podcast is to find

54:18

out about people like you and

54:20

let other people in the industry

54:23

know about people like you because

54:25

I did not know that Warframe

54:27

had you as a creative director

54:29

until just recently. And I should

54:31

know that. Everyone should know that,

54:34

right? And it's a big game.

54:36

Warframe is a big huge game.

54:38

and it's just really interesting the

54:40

route you took to get there

54:42

and how and I don't like

54:45

saying this but you are a

54:47

minority in the industry. Talk to

54:49

me about all of that and

54:51

being a female creative director on

54:53

a big fucking game that tons

54:56

of people play and how you're

54:58

navigating through this and how we

55:00

can get more. Yes, this is

55:02

where my brain needs to start,

55:04

like doing some slow thinking to

55:07

figure out what I feel it

55:09

means as a person, how I

55:11

think as a team we work

55:13

together with it, because it definitely

55:16

wasn't expected. Like I didn't ever

55:18

do anything with Warframe expecting this,

55:20

and that has started to sort

55:22

of tell me a story about

55:24

who I am and what I

55:27

like doing because It happened like

55:29

the okay so I've always been

55:31

with warframe like that much is

55:33

clear by now like it's it's

55:35

I have been there since day

55:38

one, you know, with the game,

55:40

know, with the

55:42

game, with every

55:44

single patch, like

55:46

you joked, been

55:49

oh, there's been

55:51

so many updates

55:53

to Warframe. I

55:55

could tell you

55:57

what happened in

56:00

every one of

56:02

them, what the

56:04

controversies were, like,

56:06

I've just been

56:09

there were, I, you

56:11

know, the team

56:13

been there, and, been there in some

56:15

capacity to some all those deployments through.

56:17

And we have a much bigger team

56:19

now a some of them just joined this

56:21

year. some them just joined. same

56:24

time I did, and and it doesn't matter when

56:26

you you joined you're a part of it when

56:28

it's live and everyone on the team has

56:30

live a different experience with what we are

56:32

has a is like maybe a triple A

56:34

free to play game like maybe I've

56:36

just been fooling myself like just say

56:38

it it A free to totally like maybe I've say

56:40

this I don't want to jump off

56:42

this but Let me just

56:44

read you a list of things

56:46

I quick. want to jump off this but me just

56:48

read you a list of things real quick

56:51

okay free to play MMO shooter

56:53

Endless and extensive customization.

56:56

PVE and PVP. Expensive open

56:59

worlds, procedurally generated

57:01

missions, story -driven quests, quests,

57:04

crafting, rogue-like, clan

57:06

and and social features, endless

57:08

updates, I am am sorry to tell

57:10

you you. That a fucking game. game.

57:12

We made a AAA game. AAA game.

57:14

It wasn't It's fine. It's fine.

57:16

It's fine. We're still in fine. It's

57:18

fine. We're still in to remove the

57:20

beta label So we haven't removed the beta

57:23

label. all right back to

57:25

the beta is us. So- All right, back to the,

57:27

back to the- Yeah, like, yeah. In 2022. in so we had

57:29

had just released sort of our Avengers end in

57:31

2021, December, everyone everyone on the team

57:33

was like, well, what do we do

57:35

now? do just finished the Endgame of

57:37

Warframe, game of warframe and was, the

57:39

as a business, we probably should try and start

57:41

a second game, see if we start a have fun

57:43

in the fantasy genre. Let's take a

57:45

whole bunch of the founding fathers of

57:48

Warframe of the put them in a new

57:50

environment, new a fantasy one, a but what

57:52

the hell are we going to do

57:54

with Warframe? Like that game needs to

57:56

keep going. needs to keep going so it's the way

57:58

it all went down down is... Can you

58:00

remind me what like what expansion the the

58:02

end game was? The new war December 2021.

58:05

It was a four hour cinematic quest that

58:07

sort of wrapped up a major arc in

58:09

the game. Got it. That's on my list.

58:11

But yes, that's what the new war is.

58:14

2021 release. And it was highly anticipated had

58:16

been in development and marketed or even hinted

58:18

about for for some time like since 2018.

58:21

I want to say. So anyway. Needless to

58:23

say, there was a dilemma for the company.

58:25

What do we do with Warframe if we

58:27

want to start a second project? If people

58:30

feel like we want to move some people

58:32

over, refresh them, get them out of the

58:34

Warframe sandbox. Originally, what had happened is, so

58:37

at work, I have sort of a partner

58:39

in crime, our game director design director Pablo,

58:41

who I've worked with this whole time, he

58:43

started in 2011 also, and they actually offered

58:46

the creative director role to him first, and

58:48

he passed, and then we were kind of

58:50

all in a room together, doing a little

58:53

bit of a meme of like, well, who's

58:55

going to take it over? And I hadn't

58:57

even considered, to be quite honest, and then,

58:59

you know, it was there were some jokes

59:02

and laughs about like well only if there

59:04

was someone that had been here the whole

59:06

time was really organized was really respected and

59:08

in the community and I'm like but who

59:11

and then they're like why don't you just

59:13

do it and I was like if you

59:15

know like if I must I will try

59:18

and that was it I'll try and I

59:20

said but we can't tell the community until

59:22

enough time has passed to know if I

59:24

can even if I can even do it

59:27

so I had done for the first time

59:29

in my career what felt like was not

59:31

told the community what was going on, which

59:34

was behind the scenes from 2022 for six

59:36

months. I was secretly the creative director working

59:38

secretly with like this new team and we

59:40

were trying things and we had a lot

59:43

of bruises there and I really took the

59:45

window to my sales at some point. Secretly

59:47

from the community but not internal. not internal

59:50

everyone internally knew and everyone internally knew like

59:52

if this works out we're gonna announce it

59:54

in July 2022 like we're gonna make the

59:56

transition very publicly then and make it a

59:59

moment so it was really hard that was

1:00:01

definitely the most difficult six months of my

1:00:03

career because I really felt like I couldn't

1:00:06

do it because I knew the game but

1:00:08

I I had so much else to learn

1:00:10

in that role with, but the people that

1:00:12

I work with, everyone was so supportive and

1:00:15

every single person every day would be like,

1:00:17

we can do this, we're a team, and

1:00:19

it really empowered me to be okay to

1:00:21

fail in those first months, because even though

1:00:24

there was a lot on the line, as

1:00:26

we've said before, like, you have to be

1:00:28

loose, but there's still a lot on the

1:00:31

line. It was just an endurance test, right?

1:00:33

And it was, the cuts felt like they

1:00:35

were getting a little deeper, but I still

1:00:37

wasn't bleeding out too much. And then we

1:00:40

just said, okay, let's just commit and let's

1:00:42

just try. And then now it will have

1:00:44

been to almost, it'll be three years in

1:00:47

February of next year. So I've done it

1:00:49

for that long now. And in that time,

1:00:51

it's definitely been, like I've had the most

1:00:53

fun I've ever had. the highest highs, lowest

1:00:56

lows. It's very rewarding and very exciting to

1:00:58

work with people that care about warframe every

1:01:00

single day at work. Everyone is just so

1:01:03

on board for the weirdest ideas that have

1:01:05

like a practical backing for how we're going

1:01:07

to do it, how we're going to plan

1:01:09

it, what the players expect. And then ultimately,

1:01:12

my number one, like my as a community

1:01:14

professional, I always felt that the community sentiment

1:01:16

was my you know, my metric for if

1:01:18

I'm doing a good job or not. And

1:01:21

now it's even more so that because they

1:01:23

are still the, like they're my, they're my

1:01:25

boss, right? Like the community at the end

1:01:28

of the day is the boss. So pretty

1:01:30

early on in, well, not too, I think

1:01:32

in 2022-ish, I added a in-game -game

1:01:34

surveys to the game so

1:01:37

that the team so

1:01:39

that we could do

1:01:41

a heartbeat check fun you

1:01:44

have fun playing today? or

1:01:46

yes or no? that

1:01:48

I have that open

1:01:50

all the time on

1:01:53

my monitor, you which is

1:01:55

a totally a totally obfuscated

1:01:57

sentiment tracker. Like it

1:02:00

doesn't come with like, you

1:02:02

know, like a written written or

1:02:04

qualitative report, it's just

1:02:06

a general sentiment tracker.

1:02:09

And I have it

1:02:11

up all the time

1:02:13

just to see how

1:02:16

the community that are

1:02:18

actually playing the game

1:02:20

right then and there

1:02:22

are feeling about Warframe.

1:02:25

And that's my boss,

1:02:27

about Like that graph

1:02:29

is... is my boss. right like that what

1:02:31

I is is That's so what I feel

1:02:33

all my 10 years in the community

1:02:35

trenches have taught me, which is

1:02:37

what is the cleanest way to see

1:02:40

how your players are feeling. to see how

1:02:42

your players go from there. and tried to keep

1:02:44

it. so I've tried to keep as a reminder,

1:02:46

as a that's what. like that's to

1:02:48

stay high, so high so the game,

1:02:50

enjoy the game and doing that, it

1:02:52

has yeah it's been it's been rewarding.

1:02:54

It's been challenging. And then there's the

1:02:56

whole, you know, and a woman angle, which

1:02:58

is such a know a weird one for

1:03:00

me because angle which is such a such a weird one

1:03:02

go really into that. I think. yeah

1:03:05

We should. can go definitely should,

1:03:07

but I I think

1:03:09

something. we definitely should but I want

1:03:11

you talked about like. say something earlier

1:03:13

only have one day of like you

1:03:15

really. Yep. day of grace really

1:03:18

like and I I think that

1:03:20

kind of stands with being a

1:03:22

creative director. being a as well. director

1:03:24

as a lot of pressure. a lot

1:03:27

of be to be the the

1:03:29

person, even though you're really not the

1:03:31

person, you never are the person, but... you

1:03:33

never are the For

1:03:35

however it worked out, it worked

1:03:37

out, you're that is is

1:03:39

of leading the charge,

1:03:41

so to speak. There's a

1:03:44

lot of There's a lot of

1:03:46

like different areas areas. creative

1:03:48

director is. There's

1:03:50

a lot there. is, There's a

1:03:52

lot, yeah. a lot there. You know. you

1:03:55

know, no one's perfect.

1:03:58

perfect. Everyone. failure

1:04:00

is a beautiful and

1:04:03

magical part of life.

1:04:05

It's actually, in my

1:04:08

opinion, really the only

1:04:10

true way to learn

1:04:13

things. Preach, preach is

1:04:15

failure. And, you know,

1:04:18

I've been on teams

1:04:20

and I have been

1:04:23

a leader who's failed.

1:04:25

And it's hard to...

1:04:29

It's hard to wrap failure

1:04:31

into success when you're a

1:04:33

creative director. Like, how do

1:04:35

you manage that? Because it's

1:04:37

really interesting, like, I love

1:04:39

this, I love that you

1:04:41

came from the community and

1:04:43

you see the community is

1:04:46

the boss. Again, it's probably

1:04:48

not a new, it's not

1:04:50

a new concept. I actually

1:04:52

generally don't make a lot

1:04:54

of live service games. I

1:04:56

am making one. right now,

1:04:58

but it's kind of fascinating

1:05:00

to me that you take

1:05:02

that as like the beating,

1:05:04

the heartbeat of the thing.

1:05:07

And like, how do you,

1:05:09

how do you manage failure

1:05:11

as a leader with your

1:05:13

team and your community across

1:05:15

something and turn it around?

1:05:17

Because that is in my

1:05:19

opinion, the number one most

1:05:21

important skill. and tool a

1:05:23

creative director has to have.

1:05:25

Yeah, I agree and I

1:05:28

think that when we're always

1:05:30

asked to be making the

1:05:32

next thing, if you don't

1:05:34

acknowledge the failures from the

1:05:36

prior thing, you're just sort

1:05:38

of, you're not living in

1:05:40

the same reality your players

1:05:42

are because they're the ones

1:05:44

that are experiencing your wins

1:05:46

and failures as their hobby,

1:05:49

their free time. So if

1:05:51

you don't figure out the...

1:05:53

the general reactions to what

1:05:55

you just

1:05:57

did, you'll never

1:05:59

be able be

1:06:01

able to make the next thing better. better.

1:06:03

it's sort of like a philosophical thing we

1:06:05

do, at least. do, at least to do, which

1:06:07

is, you know, is, you we deploy anything,

1:06:10

it should just be be little bit better bit

1:06:12

better than whatever was accessible

1:06:14

before. before. it it a customization or

1:06:16

fixing a core issue issue with

1:06:18

like post client replication. It's just got to

1:06:20

be a little bit better. to So a always strive

1:06:22

for that, but. strive you have But

1:06:24

when you have a. what what we'll call

1:06:26

a failure, know, know, maybe it was something

1:06:29

because, and for me, when I look at

1:06:31

I look at players might not have liked something

1:06:33

liked it, you know, deem it get the

1:06:35

title of like, oh, what did we fail

1:06:37

there? oh, what did we found that

1:06:39

it's because that it's because a plan

1:06:41

did not did not come together because

1:06:43

it was too ambitious or because

1:06:45

it was, it yeah, like it typically comes

1:06:47

down to those things. And it's kind of

1:06:49

sad to think that, oh, we failed

1:06:51

in this case this way because the ambition

1:06:54

was too high and there wasn't enough

1:06:56

time to make it reality. Let's

1:06:58

be be ambitious next time. That's never

1:07:00

really been the lesson we've learned.

1:07:02

been the lesson we've a goal or a

1:07:04

plan differently a pro to goal or a plan

1:07:06

differently because I play a lot

1:07:08

of of Like I have over like I hours 3,000

1:07:10

hours and you know, I know what makes it

1:07:12

fun and what makes it click and

1:07:14

I know. I know what what I like about it

1:07:17

and that like about it,

1:07:19

and forgiveness for some amount of

1:07:21

some for our failures but maybe some

1:07:23

parts of it still work, but

1:07:25

maybe we were too ambitious with

1:07:27

asking. when we've never the team to make a and

1:07:29

we had never done that before. we had so

1:07:31

much, you know, new tech that went into it.

1:07:33

It just wasn't as stable as it should

1:07:36

have been on launch. And that was the tough

1:07:38

one we we really wanted to like nail it and

1:07:40

get a really fun roguelike out there, but

1:07:42

it there, but it issues issues of that

1:07:44

were like a total failure on on

1:07:46

my part for how much time was

1:07:48

needed to test it test it. And it's just

1:07:50

we we had, if we if

1:07:52

we look at the timeline

1:07:55

again like just do a view, because

1:07:57

we did that that experiment in

1:07:59

2023. in 2023. we had already had 10

1:08:01

years of road, like a road we

1:08:03

had covered, so players were willing to

1:08:05

come back and say, oh, they'll fix

1:08:07

it in a week, they'll fix it

1:08:09

in two weeks, which is great that

1:08:12

the players knew we would get things

1:08:14

a little more stable, but it also

1:08:16

feels awful when you look over at

1:08:18

the team that you already asked to

1:08:20

finish this and ask them to keep

1:08:22

going, and that those types of moments

1:08:24

are hard, but because the team either

1:08:27

has worked together. on this update, even

1:08:29

if they just got hired for that

1:08:31

update, or they've worked with us for

1:08:33

so long, there is a forgive first

1:08:35

mentality, a lot of the time for

1:08:37

these things internally, which could disappear in

1:08:39

a day, that grace period for me,

1:08:42

could go away in a day if

1:08:44

I keep asking too much of people

1:08:46

that can do things I can't because,

1:08:48

you know, I look at it like

1:08:50

I'm the conductor of the orchestra and

1:08:52

I wave a baton. I can't play

1:08:54

a solo violin, I can't play a

1:08:57

woodwind. I'm not a craftsperson for every

1:08:59

part that makes warframe more frame so

1:09:01

I have to you know that that's

1:09:03

it that's the I think that was

1:09:05

the first analogy I used when I

1:09:07

kind of like said hey team so

1:09:09

you know this is the new leadership

1:09:12

now and here's how it's going to

1:09:14

work like I will never be able

1:09:16

to write net code that can but

1:09:18

you can so when it's your time

1:09:20

like you get your solo and you

1:09:22

know I'll just everyone else can put

1:09:24

their like instruments at rest and so

1:09:27

forth so. That's how I see it.

1:09:29

I conduct and conductors often don't write

1:09:31

the music either, right? So it's very

1:09:33

much a team effort all the way

1:09:35

through and that has been the orchestra

1:09:37

of Warframe for I learned it from

1:09:39

you know the team before me who

1:09:42

are still absolutely critical to Warframe as

1:09:44

well as our new project. Like we

1:09:46

stole a whole bunch of resources from

1:09:48

them to help me finish something we're

1:09:50

working on right now because we needed

1:09:52

more help. So it's a very understanding

1:09:54

group of people that. have created this

1:09:56

together from nothing truly in that

1:09:59

understand what it takes

1:10:01

it takes to keep the

1:10:03

community happy and happy and

1:10:05

entertained we we are entertainers at the end of

1:10:07

the day, the you know, you don't walk into

1:10:09

an orchestra and expect them to say, oh, well,

1:10:11

you know, you know, like

1:10:13

it's just say, oh, is you know, is

1:10:15

our expectation that to be entertainers

1:10:18

expectation is to the You know, if we have

1:10:20

to re if, you know, if will. have to rewrite

1:10:22

the sheet music, we do you

1:10:24

think there are so few? so few? female

1:10:27

directors on big on big guys

1:10:29

industry. That is

1:10:31

the question. question. That is question. have

1:10:33

a lot of answers a theories about that, but

1:10:35

I'm not going to say what mine are

1:10:37

I'm that doesn't matter. I want to know. are

1:10:40

because you think it because matter. I

1:10:42

want to know know as we said before it

1:10:44

because, very few. as we said are.

1:10:46

And it's wild that that's

1:10:48

the case. it's wild that sense

1:10:50

the a terrible way. in

1:10:53

a terrible way. It does. makes

1:10:55

sense. sense. But it's got to

1:10:57

to change. That is also true.

1:10:59

Yeah, that I also true. I would

1:11:01

be curious, and I don't have would

1:11:03

be curious and I don't have the data

1:11:05

on, you know, the. director

1:11:08

of the like creative director.

1:11:10

the age amongst them, like what's

1:11:12

even the age younger younger women starting

1:11:14

to start studios and get into

1:11:17

it because it's very much been it's

1:11:19

very much been a like a

1:11:21

male industry for the

1:11:24

original, you know, from

1:11:26

the 80s, forever, Let's just say

1:11:28

forever. just say forever. There, works forever.

1:11:30

That works too. So I don't know.

1:11:32

I know. feel, my feel, and

1:11:34

my experience is all I know.

1:11:36

And my lived experience is

1:11:38

that the way it happened here

1:11:40

Warframe is like the the isolation kind

1:11:42

of led to it. We are

1:11:44

a pretty isolated studio. We're

1:11:46

in London, Ontario, Canada, and it's

1:11:48

very much a matter of of

1:11:51

us just working with the team

1:11:53

we had and just going through

1:11:55

it. it's never really been a

1:11:57

thing at our studio that studio that

1:11:59

I. am a like a rare like

1:12:02

it's not really talked about I don't

1:12:04

really know if that's a good because

1:12:06

it makes total rational logical sense it's

1:12:08

all yeah it's like there's no reason

1:12:11

for it not to be what it

1:12:13

is right yeah like if you go

1:12:15

outside like I'm sorry I've worked a

1:12:18

lot of AAA places like the creative

1:12:20

director role is is a role that

1:12:22

people go after And they crawl through

1:12:25

glass, and they crawl through glass to

1:12:27

get, and I've done it too. It's

1:12:29

like, it's the end goal, right? It's

1:12:32

the end goal. Yeah. There are a

1:12:34

lot of creative directors, great creative directors.

1:12:36

I know quite a few creative directors

1:12:38

who didn't go after it, and they

1:12:41

got it, because they're a trusted member

1:12:43

of the team, and blah blah blah.

1:12:45

And they flourished, and they've turned into

1:12:48

these amazing, amazing, amazing people. But. A

1:12:50

lot of people, like that's the goal,

1:12:52

right? I talked to a lot of

1:12:55

young people and I'm like, what do

1:12:57

you want to do in the industry?

1:12:59

I want to be a creative director,

1:13:01

but they can't necessarily actually articulate what

1:13:04

a creative director is. And actually, I

1:13:06

don't know if I can either, honestly.

1:13:08

I looked it up before this because

1:13:11

I wondered if this would come up

1:13:13

so I looked up the Wikipedia definition

1:13:15

before this just to see like what

1:13:18

is it what is it actually because

1:13:20

I'm sure my my experience is not

1:13:22

that and yeah I feel like it's

1:13:25

like a pearls before swine thing for

1:13:27

me because I like again it's the

1:13:29

only job I've had in the games

1:13:31

industry. and my experience with creative directors

1:13:34

are only the people I work with

1:13:36

here in London Ontario and I worked

1:13:38

so closely with them I was like

1:13:41

oh I understand like I think I

1:13:43

understand and then you start kind of

1:13:45

branching out into the world like I

1:13:48

went to my first GDC many many

1:13:50

many years into my career and I

1:13:52

you know you make observations at that

1:13:55

point as someone in the room of

1:13:57

game developer. it was 2018

1:13:59

was my first one.

1:14:02

and you know I you know, I observed,

1:14:04

I watched, I'm always, you know know, I

1:14:06

I say nothing and watch everything and

1:14:08

it's like, it's like okay yeah I guess I am

1:14:10

I am the only the only woman in

1:14:12

the room here or on this day on the

1:14:14

talk this day and on the

1:14:17

talk woman the only woman giving

1:14:19

a talk. That's interesting. Does that mean

1:14:21

anything? What could it possibly mean? mean

1:14:23

and it's always it's always just

1:14:25

been about the women I knew that I worked

1:14:27

with. with and to the credit like I don't

1:14:29

know know wonder if you know her

1:14:31

if you when I started and really

1:14:33

became like a full full-time employee

1:14:35

as opposed to like an hourly

1:14:37

summer student but not the person person

1:14:39

that actually hired me and said said

1:14:41

will commit to the community the was

1:14:43

Meredith Braun was been in Braun she's

1:14:46

forever in the games industry she

1:14:48

just she left the industry for

1:14:50

good the kind of live out a

1:14:52

good life a good life. recently, and she

1:14:54

was just a a powerhouse of a woman

1:14:56

very influential to me to understand. me She was

1:14:58

our vice president of publishing. vice And she

1:15:00

really was like, okay, if we're really this is

1:15:02

what we gotta do. if And I was

1:15:04

like, okay, like let's go, let's go. And

1:15:06

I learned so much from her. like, okay, let's go. Let's

1:15:08

go. that for me really

1:15:10

helped that my boss was

1:15:12

someone that was someone You know,

1:15:15

at the very least, least, like, I saw saw

1:15:17

saw a version of a female in the games

1:15:19

industry in her, and she was an

1:15:21

industry veteran, like had worked. veteran

1:15:23

like had worked at Infogram's

1:15:26

Atari like just legend. I

1:15:28

don't know her personally,

1:15:30

but I absolute. personally but she's an

1:15:33

There you have it. So that

1:15:35

she was my boss for

1:15:37

many, many years, she was my boss until

1:15:39

2019. years like up until 2019 so Yeah, like that

1:15:41

was who I was who I learned from.

1:15:43

So listening anyone listening that knew her or

1:15:45

knows her, of like it'll be like,

1:15:47

oh, of course that makes sense. just just

1:15:50

like, she is And she, she, I don't even

1:15:52

know if she realizes that don't even know

1:15:54

if she realizes that sometimes she was the only

1:15:56

woman in the room because she just always knew

1:15:58

what to do do had the right answer. answer. And it

1:16:00

was just, it was so wonderful

1:16:03

to watch. And then as I

1:16:05

started becoming, you know, more dialed

1:16:07

into the live ops and war

1:16:10

frames, everything, I really felt like,

1:16:12

oh, I like making the games,

1:16:14

like the publishing and marketing side

1:16:17

is cool, but it's definitely not

1:16:19

for me as a career path,

1:16:21

you know, like if I wanted

1:16:24

to take over what she did

1:16:26

formally. So I always leaned right,

1:16:28

I always fell back into the

1:16:31

dev dirty laundry pile. And but

1:16:33

I had it on the heels

1:16:35

of her training. It was I

1:16:38

definitely attribute a lot of my

1:16:40

I don't know what's confidence because

1:16:42

it's or it's just it's maybe

1:16:45

it is let's just call it

1:16:47

confidence just confidence that you know

1:16:49

being the only woman in the

1:16:52

room isn't a deal breaker just

1:16:54

get the job done like let's

1:16:57

go so she's that that has

1:16:59

all come from her for for

1:17:01

good for many like it's been

1:17:04

great so yeah I mean That

1:17:06

must have been amazing. Like, yeah,

1:17:08

it was. It was. What a

1:17:11

role model. You know, it's, it's

1:17:13

like, it's so, all this is

1:17:15

so interesting to me and such

1:17:18

needed, I'm like, I'm desperate to

1:17:20

talk to people like you, especially

1:17:22

on this podcast because we actually

1:17:25

need change. And it's almost like,

1:17:27

I don't even like saying. female

1:17:29

creative director just sounds gross to

1:17:32

actually have to say that but

1:17:34

like we got us we have

1:17:36

to there has to be a

1:17:39

movement towards this and like you

1:17:41

know if you could give advice

1:17:43

to maybe not people starting out

1:17:46

but but women in the industry

1:17:48

who are in positions in the

1:17:51

on teams to to kind of

1:17:53

you know move into these roles.

1:17:55

And let's be honest, there's a

1:17:58

whole horrible reason

1:18:00

why. why we were We were talking about

1:18:02

it. this because this been a boys

1:18:04

club It's just been it is. And

1:18:06

I think like, from my perspective, and

1:18:08

it is. think this is And I think,

1:18:11

like, because from my perspective experience think this

1:18:13

is problematic because this is my lived

1:18:15

experience in my perspective. So this

1:18:17

is just coming from me into the I've

1:18:19

experienced and what got me into the games

1:18:21

industry. be like, I don't think this is gonna

1:18:23

be controversial. I'm I hope not. And I'm

1:18:25

just having an honest conversation about it. It's It's

1:18:27

like. The The games I grew up

1:18:29

loving. that and playing that have

1:18:32

defined so much of my, I you

1:18:34

know, the games play the games I play

1:18:36

now, everything. if if you look at credits,

1:18:38

it's like, oh, teams of of men

1:18:40

made these games. They're good at it.

1:18:42

it's like, okay, fundamentally you have

1:18:44

like a you have like a, like a thing. Like a

1:18:46

fact, let's just say. say. So So

1:18:48

then you look for the teams of

1:18:50

women of you look for the the women

1:18:52

on on the teams that you can

1:18:54

identify on a list somewhere like female

1:18:56

game developers. game what have you, right? or

1:18:59

things and you start to Like together a

1:19:01

pattern for me of put together a

1:19:03

pattern for me happened? what Like,

1:19:05

how did it start in one way?

1:19:07

And now we're pushing for change in in

1:19:09

new direction that I'm a part of and

1:19:11

I'm so proud to be a female a

1:19:13

director, as we say. as we say. either, like, like,

1:19:16

is is grosser? I can say it it. I

1:19:18

admit, to say it but it's

1:19:20

like it. But it's only say it's gross

1:19:22

because it's gross because hate to

1:19:24

have to say it, right? right?

1:19:26

It should just be creative a creative director,

1:19:28

right? just get it like I I

1:19:30

know and I see it and it

1:19:32

becomes impossible to separate from impossible

1:19:34

to separate from, like, just,

1:19:37

when you see you see the business of

1:19:39

games and you see what games games. do well

1:19:41

in the indie space, when you see what

1:19:43

games do well in the do space, and when

1:19:45

you see what games do well and when just

1:19:47

good marketing. do well in like even just

1:19:49

It becomes so hard as a

1:19:52

woman to look and try and

1:19:54

see how some how some on that

1:19:56

team team high position. Like. like gets

1:19:58

to to put themselves risk. out there

1:20:00

or, you know, have an active role

1:20:02

in defining what their vision was or

1:20:05

what relationship they have with the game

1:20:07

or the create, like the process or

1:20:09

anything. And I don't really know what

1:20:12

I'm trying to say now, so I'll

1:20:14

ramble a little bit and you can

1:20:16

tell me if I'm not really making

1:20:19

sense, but it's sort of like, this

1:20:21

is all gravy. So go off. Go

1:20:23

off. All right. I'll go off. I

1:20:26

just think that I get. Okay. So

1:20:28

my my like in my corner, you

1:20:30

know, I'm in Canada. I have very

1:20:33

I've had very strong female mentors, which

1:20:35

again, that could be one of the

1:20:37

problems, right? Like if you don't have

1:20:40

Meredith Braun mentoring you, like who do

1:20:42

you have? Like, like she's been, she's

1:20:44

a legend, right? So. Are there enough

1:20:47

female mentors? That's something that I've tried

1:20:49

to actively do. Like I've talked to

1:20:51

some women that really want to either.

1:20:54

Like I really love what you did

1:20:56

with the community and I just wish

1:20:58

that the Debs on my team would

1:21:01

listen to me about how important community

1:21:03

is for live service. And I've seen,

1:21:05

I have seen, like women in community

1:21:08

roles, be able to just get a

1:21:10

little bit more of an understanding of

1:21:12

the science of community, let's call it.

1:21:15

And that's been wonderful. And even on

1:21:17

the own team. at hear a D

1:21:19

on warframe. It's a very, very diverse

1:21:22

and awesome team. And it's always been

1:21:24

about how, you know, warframe as a

1:21:26

game with this team of professionals behind

1:21:29

it can live their truth and live

1:21:31

their, like, have warframe live its truth.

1:21:33

So there's all the conversations about, you

1:21:36

know, the art, artists who's putting what

1:21:38

into the game, who's the target audience

1:21:40

for it. Like it's too, there's too

1:21:43

much to say. Where are more female

1:21:45

creative directors because I play a lot

1:21:47

of romance games that have female creative

1:21:50

directors So maybe it's just like they're

1:21:52

hiding over there and they're like a

1:21:54

tome genre of like like that thing

1:21:56

and they're making a killing perhaps or

1:21:59

maybe not If If you're listening, come

1:22:01

on the podcast. podcast. Want you. to to

1:22:03

talk to you. Yeah, and like, said this before,

1:22:05

and maybe this is, maybe I

1:22:07

think is, do need like an optimistic

1:22:09

need like thing, but I'll also speak

1:22:11

a truth, which is a would

1:22:13

never take a job somewhere outside

1:22:15

digital extremes in the creative director

1:22:17

rule. in the I don't think I

1:22:19

would I don't think I would

1:22:21

stay in the the, like once is done

1:22:23

with me, I will not. not. continue

1:22:26

in the games industry on a

1:22:28

team I I just don't don't think I can.

1:22:30

I think think. I think Yeah, I think. you

1:22:32

no no need you! want it to sound

1:22:34

but like, I don't want it to sound depressing. I like

1:22:36

and it's not it's not depressing because on being

1:22:38

here forever. So let's be real. It's a

1:22:40

bit of like be real it's a bit of This

1:22:42

is a bit of this is a that

1:22:44

is is question, is the you know... like

1:22:46

you know war is is forever Yeah, Yeah,

1:22:48

exactly. So I don't ever want it

1:22:50

to end, but when it does,

1:22:53

it will be the end for

1:22:55

me in this industry, like as far far

1:22:57

as I'm concerned, because I just

1:22:59

I just, the emotional endurance test will have reached

1:23:01

its end test will have reached its

1:23:03

end for me. because don't think that's

1:23:06

because I'm a lady. I think it's

1:23:08

just because when you are in

1:23:10

the creative field you're one, your baby reaches its

1:23:12

end, I I don't know if I'll

1:23:14

have the strength to do it

1:23:16

again. again. And that's just a personal

1:23:18

thing, but... Well, I think, I

1:23:21

think I shock I you said that, it's

1:23:23

like, you know my need you. when you said

1:23:25

that, it's like, you know, when

1:23:27

you explain it like that. But

1:23:29

when It is. it interesting.

1:23:32

it is, that is an Concept

1:23:34

and it's it's quite

1:23:36

mature it's, it's know Like,

1:23:39

you know, like, know. know. I got books

1:23:41

in on right at him. and going to do something else.

1:23:43

Yeah, I'm I'm going to to do something else. I'm

1:23:45

I'll become a or I'll I'll make

1:23:47

um and I'll make like review videos like now

1:23:50

that saccharize done channel Not that that he's

1:23:52

my my now called of personality and This

1:23:54

is all coming full circle because like

1:23:56

because like Sakurai around he walks on curvy

1:23:58

my my favorite franchise ever. and he's

1:24:00

creative curvy, so it's like, got

1:24:02

a, got a, in his videos

1:24:04

I love, but anyway, but if

1:24:06

there are women in the industry

1:24:08

or considering it getting into the

1:24:10

industry or just play games, like

1:24:12

there is a space for you.

1:24:14

And I think there is a

1:24:16

assumed hostility that is likely a

1:24:18

very real and traumatic experience for

1:24:20

a lot of women. And I've

1:24:22

had my own issues, like when

1:24:24

I first started as a young

1:24:26

unpaid intern of a games company,

1:24:28

like whatever you're picturing. probably happened

1:24:30

to me, you know, like unwanted

1:24:32

touches and stuff. And like, it

1:24:34

was just, it was just not in

1:24:37

my worldview to let that beat

1:24:39

me and say, you know, and,

1:24:41

but there is a risk and

1:24:43

like, like, like, safety and all

1:24:45

these things, I don't want to

1:24:47

disregard those, but I, I ultimately,

1:24:49

felt so passionate about the art

1:24:51

and the process of making games

1:24:53

that I wasn't going to let someone

1:24:55

scare it out of me by

1:24:57

reminding me that, you know, I'm

1:24:59

a woman or something. And by

1:25:01

turning the blinders on early, it

1:25:03

probably created an ignorance that perhaps

1:25:05

I still carry with me to

1:25:07

this day. But it is obvious

1:25:09

like because I'm in this London

1:25:11

Ontario bubble, like when I do leave

1:25:13

it, it does occur to me

1:25:15

what it's like. you know out

1:25:17

at the GDCs of the world

1:25:19

and stuff because I remember going

1:25:21

to like a really important dinner

1:25:24

with one of our more senior

1:25:26

people and I went with him

1:25:28

to the dinner meeting and you

1:25:30

know the people at the table like

1:25:32

look past me like oh like

1:25:34

you must be so and so's

1:25:36

wife like where's the rest of

1:25:38

the team and I'm like well

1:25:40

I am the team but but

1:25:42

like it's an easy social mistake

1:25:44

to make but it's also not

1:25:46

and I'm not trying to apologize

1:25:48

but like I'm not going to let

1:25:50

it. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's that

1:25:52

and that's, you know, it's just

1:25:54

words and it's someone else's worldview

1:25:56

and perhaps maybe like a me

1:25:58

it is just is

1:26:00

the greatest motivator. motivator.

1:26:02

So like why not

1:26:04

particularly spiteful of

1:26:06

anybody. I'm not spiteful

1:26:09

of the person or

1:26:11

spiteful of a I or a thing

1:26:13

like am I I do I get my joys

1:26:15

and my my joys and

1:26:17

my and if if there's a

1:26:19

well and if there's a subconscious

1:26:21

part of that that is motivated

1:26:23

by by like someone from high school

1:26:25

wrong that said games weren't for

1:26:27

girls, then maybe that's what then

1:26:29

me sleep at night, but I

1:26:31

would love. night but I live. to live

1:26:34

You know. live in this in this maybe

1:26:36

dream of of mine, maybe not. and

1:26:38

my my articulate words fail me,

1:26:40

it's just a matter of. just I didn't

1:26:42

I didn't give up ever. And it's never

1:26:44

even crossed my mind. even when when I

1:26:47

was at my lows, like I do this?

1:26:49

Can I doubt myself? myself I surrounded I

1:26:51

surrounded myself with amazing people.

1:26:53

The team environment is you know second

1:26:56

you know, second to none. never I I was

1:26:58

never, I never felt alone I I never felt

1:27:00

belittled by the people whose opinion I acted.

1:27:02

whose about. I And

1:27:04

that's. about and of who I am. of

1:27:06

who I am. I mean what a way to end

1:27:09

a What a way to end a

1:27:11

conversation. that was really great piece of

1:27:13

great. and perspective

1:27:15

and I think That was really great. really

1:27:18

piece of information and. and

1:27:20

perspective and I I think

1:27:22

that I think that I hope that that

1:27:24

we We can use

1:27:26

this episode to get out out,

1:27:29

get out there, and

1:27:31

you know try to try to

1:27:33

You know, try to some change some

1:27:36

change going because we do need it.

1:27:38

it and it's it's it's

1:27:40

really bad that the

1:27:43

It's really bad. so small. The

1:27:45

list list is so small.

1:27:47

I would The list is small. would like to

1:27:49

see more names on the list. I I I

1:27:51

am a in a pretty open book when it

1:27:53

comes to a lot of these things and

1:27:55

being able to talk with you about it,

1:27:57

with you seen who world that I haven't. I haven't and

1:28:00

I just hope that. I mean,

1:28:02

but so of you, right?

1:28:04

Yeah, yeah. You worked on

1:28:06

one thing and kept it

1:28:08

alive. Like, that's actually like

1:28:10

my parents generation idea of

1:28:12

a job, right? There's not

1:28:14

that many people in the

1:28:16

industry and like, like, I

1:28:18

just talked to Tim last

1:28:20

week about this, right? You

1:28:23

know, he, he, he had

1:28:25

that, that long history at

1:28:27

ID, but it. It all

1:28:29

doesn't matter because it's the

1:28:31

it's the experience and what

1:28:33

you bring to it and

1:28:35

it's just really you know

1:28:37

I have at least 10

1:28:39

pages of notes to talk

1:28:41

about warframe we didn't even

1:28:43

talk about warframe and honestly

1:28:45

that's that's actually pretty cool

1:28:47

because that's actually pretty cool

1:28:50

because we talked about something

1:28:52

that here today that is

1:28:54

super needed and It's great

1:28:56

to have you on. I

1:28:58

could, we could go on

1:29:00

for hours and hours and

1:29:02

hours about this stuff and

1:29:04

maybe we should do another

1:29:06

episode and actually. Yeah, I

1:29:08

am all yours for that.

1:29:10

Yeah, no, I'm all yours.

1:29:12

Like, yeah, I think I

1:29:15

would hope that if you've

1:29:17

made it this far in

1:29:19

and thank you, Adam for

1:29:21

listening and asking these questions,

1:29:23

it's, it's, it's, it always

1:29:25

has been a matter of

1:29:27

passion and commitment on this

1:29:29

particular. project with this group

1:29:31

and we have been dealt

1:29:33

horrible hands that we just

1:29:35

kept turning winds on somehow.

1:29:37

So I'll be able, I'll

1:29:40

take a luck over good

1:29:42

and the luck continues until

1:29:44

it doesn't I suppose. Rebecca

1:29:46

Ford, Creative Director, Warframe, what

1:29:48

a pleasure, great episode, I

1:29:50

loved it, let's do it

1:29:52

again sometime and again if

1:29:54

you're listening and you're a

1:29:56

woman in the industry. This

1:29:58

is a great a

1:30:00

great example, a great role model.

1:30:02

to follow. I'll do my best. You

1:30:06

know. Go play Warframe. It's

1:30:08

great. Do it. Yeah, maybe you

1:30:10

could play Warframe and be like, whoa, that's from

1:30:12

a female creative director. She sucks. And then I'll

1:30:15

be like, oh, damn it. Maybe. Well,

1:30:18

I think I think I think the goal

1:30:20

here is to never have to say female

1:30:22

creative director ever again True. That's right. yeah.

1:30:26

Rebecca Ford, creative director. There

1:30:28

we go. Perfection, the punctuation

1:30:30

mark writes itself. Adam, thank you

1:30:32

so much for this lovely chat.

1:30:43

Thank you for joining us for

1:30:45

the Game Maker's Notebook. For

1:30:47

more information on the Academy of

1:30:49

Interactive Arts and Sciences, our

1:30:51

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1:30:53

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