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to The Game Maker's Notebook. Today

1:35

I'm speaking with Jens Anderson and

1:37

Axel Torvinius of Machine Games about

1:39

developing Indiana Jones and the Great

1:42

Circle. In this episode, we

1:44

discussed the controversial choice to

1:46

make a first-person Indiana Jones

1:48

game and how it proved to be

1:50

the absolute right decision. Why they recreated

1:52

the iconic opening scene from Raiders of

1:55

the Lost Ark and how important it

1:57

was to anchor the game experience and

1:59

Troy Bay is now

2:01

legendary, award-winning, and Harrison

2:04

Ford approved performance as

2:06

Indiana Jones. Hope you enjoy

2:08

the episode. Welcome to the

2:10

Game Maker's Notebook, a podcast

2:12

featuring a series of in-depth

2:15

one-on-one conversations between game

2:17

makers providing a thoughtful,

2:20

intimate perspective on the

2:22

business and craft of

2:25

interactive entertainment. The Game

2:27

Maker's Notebook is presented

2:30

by the Academy of

2:32

Interactive Arts and Sciences,

2:35

a member-driven organization dedicated

2:37

to the recognition

2:39

and advancement of

2:42

interactive entertainment. Jens

2:44

and Axel, welcome to the

2:46

Game Maker's Notebook. Thank you.

2:48

It's good to see you guys

2:50

today. You are here at Dice.

2:53

We're recording this on February

2:55

12th. When this episode comes

2:57

out, you will either be Game

3:00

of the Year or somebody else

3:02

will be. And it's great to

3:04

have you guys here. I can

3:06

say this because podcast will

3:09

be coming out later, but I

3:11

did vote for this game for

3:13

Game of the Year. Nice to

3:16

hear. Love the game. Love

3:18

machine games. Love Yens. I've

3:20

worked with Yens before. At

3:23

Lucas. So we have a lot

3:25

of... Indiana Jones common

3:27

DNA in us and this game

3:29

is what every Indiana

3:32

Jones fan wants and I

3:34

don't need to keep telling

3:36

you that because you

3:38

already know that because

3:40

everyone has said that

3:42

it's universally adored in

3:45

that respect and I want

3:47

to talk about all that today

3:49

I want to talk about what

3:52

it was like making it

3:54

all of the challenges of

3:56

perfectly sticking the landing of

3:58

an Indiana Jones. game that

4:00

in my opinion stands

4:03

next to things

4:05

like alien isolation,

4:08

Riddick, in terms of

4:11

truly nailing an IP

4:13

for a video game. It's

4:15

one of the greats

4:17

in my opinion. Kind

4:20

of words. Yeah, thank

4:22

you. Well, it's, you know,

4:24

I'm not the first person

4:27

to say this to you. gentlemen.

4:30

So what I usually like to

4:32

do in these episodes is

4:34

usually I'm only interviewing

4:37

one person but we have two

4:39

here today. So I would just love

4:41

to get a quick intro from

4:44

both you guys what you do

4:46

for our listeners I already

4:48

know. And a little bit about

4:50

you know your journey in game

4:52

development and ultimately

4:54

to Indiana Jones

4:56

and the Great Circle. I

4:58

can start. Yes, please. So first off,

5:01

thank you so much for having us

5:03

here today. It's super cool to be

5:05

part of this episode, so much appreciated.

5:07

And I'm actually too envious, I'm

5:10

creative director at Machine Games, and

5:12

I've been working as creative director

5:14

on Indiana Jones and the Great

5:17

Circle. So my journey into game

5:19

industry actually began back in 2006

5:21

as a concept artist I started

5:24

as a company called Starberries work

5:26

there for a number of years

5:28

number of games I worked a

5:31

tiny bit with Jensbeck then also

5:33

actually and then moved over to

5:36

machine games around 2010-11 something like

5:38

that being art director and all

5:40

the Wolfenstein titles and then

5:43

into the position of creative director

5:45

now in this in this

5:47

last adventure that we

5:49

had, machine games with

5:52

Indiana Jones. Awesome. And

5:54

I've been working on

5:57

games forever. Yes, you

5:59

have. was part of

6:01

founding Starbrees back in the days.

6:03

So that's sort of where I

6:06

grew up. That's where my original

6:08

game development family

6:11

were, which is why machine games

6:13

is so cool because they are

6:15

still, that's still that family.

6:18

Talk about DNA. Yeah,

6:20

exactly. So Starbrees with

6:22

Chronicles Loretic and the

6:25

Darkness, spent 10

6:27

years-ish-ish-ish-ish-ish there. Then

6:30

I decided to do

6:32

different things. Did some

6:34

homebrew, yeah. Before

6:37

the Indy, before Indy

6:39

was Indy, did some

6:41

stuff. And then I

6:43

spent a couple of

6:45

years at Lucas Arts

6:48

in San Francisco

6:50

with you, among others.

6:52

And then I set out

6:54

to do Indy for real.

6:56

So I did for real.

6:58

10 years, did colors a

7:01

painting game, did yoke side

7:03

and express an open

7:05

world pinball game. And while

7:08

I was doing that, I

7:10

helped out machine games. So

7:12

machine games was basically

7:15

the original team

7:17

from Starbrees, we formed

7:19

into a new studio.

7:21

So helped out a little

7:24

bit on the Wolfenstein

7:26

games. And then the

7:29

Indian Airlines project

7:31

came along and that was

7:33

too good to not jump in

7:35

head first. It all actually

7:38

worked out in the end.

7:40

Yeah, so I was the sign

7:42

director on that project.

7:44

So first of all, I'm a

7:46

huge fan of machine

7:48

games. I cannot tell you

7:51

how many hours I've put

7:53

into all the design games.

7:55

you know, when I heard that you

7:57

guys were going to be doing...

8:00

Indiana Jones makes

8:02

perfect sense to me,

8:04

right? I don't think we

8:07

have to go over the well,

8:09

trodden first person

8:12

versus third person

8:14

thing, but it is

8:16

important to touch on

8:18

because, again, the

8:20

DNA, this keeps coming

8:23

up, but it wouldn't

8:25

make sense for you guys

8:28

to make a third person, Indiana

8:30

Jones game. And, you know, for

8:32

people listening, was there ever

8:35

even a consideration? No. Good,

8:37

no, it wasn't. And I mean,

8:39

it gladdens me to hear that

8:41

you think that we were a

8:43

perfect fit to do this game

8:45

based on the previous portfolio that

8:48

we made with the other Wolfenstein

8:50

titles, because we obviously saw some

8:52

comments in the beginning, you know,

8:54

what is, you know. What's this,

8:57

you know, machine games making in

8:59

Ellen Jones? So, I mean, in

9:01

the end it turned out all

9:03

good. But the, no, there was

9:05

never, we didn't even

9:07

consider this doing anything

9:09

else than first person

9:12

for numerous reasons. Yeah. So,

9:14

I mean, one of the

9:16

biggest reasons is... we believe strongly

9:18

that the game, this is what's best

9:20

for the game, this is the way

9:22

to experience this type of game in

9:24

our mind, the type of adventure game

9:26

that we wanted to do. And then there

9:28

are other things that comes into it, of

9:31

course, as what we're good at and what

9:33

we have a long, long experience in

9:35

doing, what type of game mechanics and

9:37

what type of perspectives, you know, down

9:39

to the systemic stuff of how the

9:42

player moves around and traversed the first-person

9:44

animations and all of that. But it

9:46

was never really a really hard decision

9:48

for us. No. No. We talked about

9:50

it, of course, a lot. Because we knew

9:53

there would be an expectation that people

9:55

think that modern adventure games should be

9:57

in third person. So we were very...

10:00

much aware of the

10:02

expectations. And the challenge

10:04

to convince everyone that

10:06

this was right for

10:08

the game. You don't

10:10

have to convince

10:12

anyone who's played any

10:15

machine games games. It's

10:17

more of like the general

10:19

audience who want what they

10:21

want and sometimes don't

10:24

actually know what they want

10:27

until they get it. How

10:29

did you tackle that? Like what

10:31

was the first kind of path

10:33

you took to saying This is how

10:35

we're going to convince people

10:37

that this is it's a first person

10:39

game and it needs to be and

10:41

this is the right thing to do? That

10:43

kind of speaks to Like when we

10:46

start the first time we show

10:48

the game like And that was like

10:50

that was a year ago now when we

10:52

show the game for the first time

10:54

I have to say that I

10:56

don't want to get off track

10:58

on this topic and this question,

11:00

but this game felt like

11:03

it was announced and then

11:05

it was out. It felt

11:07

so fast. I know it wasn't

11:10

like that. And I think

11:12

that that also says a

11:14

lot about the way you guys

11:16

make games. It felt very

11:19

fast. And it was

11:21

like, oh, I'm hearing about

11:23

Indiana Jones and now

11:25

I'm playing it. I would

11:28

have expected it to take a

11:30

much longer time until I realized

11:32

who was making it. Yeah. Now,

11:34

you know, we announced it a

11:36

year out and, you know, that's kind

11:39

of the answer to your question.

11:41

We knew from the get-go that

11:43

the first thing we need to

11:45

show about this game would be

11:47

to show that this is a

11:49

first-person game and why we think

11:51

that's the way to go. with this

11:54

game. We knew that that would

11:56

be the topic or conversation. So

11:58

that whole announcement... we did

12:00

there was very much focused

12:02

on the first person question

12:05

and that's exactly what happened

12:07

as well when we showed

12:09

it that was the question

12:12

that people asked and I

12:14

remember being very very happy

12:16

with how that played out because

12:19

for every person who said

12:21

like why is this first person

12:23

you know should be third person

12:25

there was a person on the other

12:27

side in that common thread or

12:30

whatever saying like no this is

12:32

machine games it needs to be

12:34

first person so they kind of had

12:36

gone through the exercise that was

12:38

so natural for us that we knew

12:41

what we wanted to make with this

12:43

game and and saw that it has

12:45

to be a first person game because

12:48

of our heritage and and what

12:50

we want to do with it. But I

12:52

think it also comes down a lot

12:54

to I mean it's... For us at least,

12:56

I feel that it very often comes

12:58

back and comes down to us trusting

13:01

the process, believing in the mission

13:03

that we have and believing in

13:05

the decisions that we're taking and

13:07

stick to them and execute on

13:10

them. And we would never of

13:12

course sway around due to a common

13:14

field somewhere saying like this should

13:16

be third person. Okay, let's change

13:18

everything. also knew that when people

13:20

will get their hands on this, which

13:22

is also another big beat, at least

13:24

in my mind, when we started to

13:26

see the hands on in terms of

13:29

me and people actually start playing and

13:31

testing it, those type of comments also start

13:33

to just like avalanche in terms of

13:35

like, no, no, no, no, now I've tried

13:37

it, it makes perfect sense. I was, you

13:39

know, skeptical or I thought that it could

13:42

be weird, but then when people have actually

13:44

tried it, it's like, no, no, it makes

13:46

perfect sense. So that of course, you know.

13:48

kind of not justified

13:50

but it was good to

13:52

say that the mission that

13:55

we believed in and that

13:57

we knew for us was was

13:59

true. to be true for more

14:01

than just the deaths. So

14:04

what was the first kind

14:06

of mechanic you guys tried

14:08

in first person to, I

14:10

shouldn't say to prove it

14:12

to yourselves, but you knew

14:14

you had to prove it

14:16

to others. Like what was

14:18

the thing that you guys

14:20

did, or maybe not the

14:22

first thing, but the first

14:24

thing where you were like,

14:26

this is gonna solve this

14:29

problem. I think it's. There's

14:31

different aspects of this that

14:33

we can talk to. I

14:35

think that one thing that

14:37

very quickly we of course

14:39

identified was the things that

14:41

we do not feel we

14:43

need to prove like shooting

14:45

a gun in first person.

14:47

That's like we know we

14:49

can do that. I figured

14:51

that out. Yeah, so let's

14:54

put that aside. Let's do

14:56

not even think about that

14:58

for the moment. What other

15:00

core components of this character

15:02

will actually emphasize the sensation

15:04

of adventure. Puzzles, the whip.

15:06

you know, traversing the environment,

15:08

the platforming aspect. So I

15:10

think depending on the different

15:12

levels of difficulty in terms

15:14

of developing those vastly different

15:16

components in the game, kind

15:19

of staggered up in terms

15:21

of when in production we

15:23

start looking at them. Yeah.

15:25

So in many ways it

15:27

was a tricky. game to

15:29

make in that sense because

15:31

like it all came back

15:33

to always came back to

15:35

like we want you to

15:37

feel as indianneons we want

15:39

you to be indianneons and

15:41

you know that doesn't come

15:44

for free that needs to

15:46

lead into every mechanic of

15:48

the game and you know

15:50

that was also the the

15:52

strongest arm argument against like

15:54

the question like you're making

15:56

a first-bossing game we are

15:58

not gonna see in the

16:00

audience. How are you gonna

16:02

present the character? So, you

16:04

know, work. on every, across

16:06

the board, every mechanic, on

16:09

every situation, on everything, to

16:11

build that up. That was

16:13

kind of the thing that

16:15

we knew and we needed

16:17

to do, but it took

16:19

the whole length of the

16:21

project to really, to really

16:23

pull that off. So it

16:25

was a constant, not struggle,

16:27

but something we had to

16:29

keep, push, push, push, push,

16:32

constantly throughout. But I think

16:34

there was also a moment

16:36

in time in the production

16:38

cycle, you and I often

16:40

talk about this, where things

16:42

just started to fall into

16:44

place. Like, how do we

16:46

see the blend in between

16:48

the first person, second to

16:50

second minute to minute gameplay?

16:52

How do that actually transforms

16:54

and translates into the going

16:57

out to third person in

16:59

traversals? Mixing that up with,

17:01

you know, getting the right

17:03

amount of cutscenes in which...

17:05

of course also shows you

17:07

in your full glory with

17:09

hats and jacket and face

17:11

and all. And when we

17:13

actually start seeing a fully

17:15

playable sequence of the game

17:17

where all these components were

17:19

fairly correctly implemented, I think

17:22

that's a moment when we

17:24

also started to feel that,

17:26

okay, this will actually become

17:28

really, really cool. But that

17:30

all of that stuff is

17:32

so hard because it's so

17:34

hard because I can't say

17:36

a day when it happened.

17:38

I can. You can. Yeah,

17:40

or for me, when that

17:42

happened, what was actually the...

17:44

No, I can't. No, I

17:47

don't know. We had a

17:49

vertical slice video, or when

17:51

we had an album. Like

17:53

when you put something together,

17:55

like this build of the

17:57

game. that's playable and you

17:59

also cut together a video

18:01

to show it to executives

18:03

and whatever. You know shows

18:05

the game as it's meant

18:07

to be rather than what

18:09

it is yes a lot

18:12

of the times And and

18:14

that in some ways resets

18:16

your own view of what

18:18

you're making because now it's

18:20

you can evaluate that snippet

18:22

that slice of what you're

18:24

doing and and This game

18:26

is a sum of so

18:28

many different parts like global

18:30

trotting adventure, but you know

18:32

all the mechanics all the

18:34

different gameplay styles of puzzles

18:37

and fighting hand-to-hand and shooting

18:39

and everything so how does

18:41

that feel like that's that's

18:43

something that you can't answer

18:45

before you build it and

18:47

that's a question that you

18:49

need to the whole team

18:51

needs to understand that to

18:53

be able to finish to

18:55

build the finished product and

18:57

that takes a lot of

19:00

time time To get all

19:02

those features to a level

19:04

of of completion where where

19:06

you can feel it And

19:08

and that was came in

19:10

late like a year before

19:12

we shipped this when we

19:14

started seeing. Oh, this is

19:16

the game we're making Yeah,

19:18

I I think that so

19:20

I'm just looking at my

19:22

notes I want to go

19:25

back a second because it's

19:27

relevant to where you're talking

19:29

to where you're talking about

19:31

New Order, Oh Blood, McClosus,

19:33

Young Blood, Cyber Pilot, loved

19:35

it. What do you guys

19:37

see in the Great Circle

19:39

from those games? So many,

19:41

many things. And I think

19:43

I would even refine that

19:45

question to say, like, what

19:47

were the things? from those

19:50

games and what you guys

19:52

do so well, excuse me,

19:54

that you knew had to

19:56

be in this game. There's

19:58

one thing. that I often

20:00

called out and I said

20:02

it many times before I

20:04

quickly mention it again but

20:06

it all comes down to philosophy

20:09

and just how we operate as

20:11

deaths we usually or at least

20:13

in my mind and you know we

20:15

we do have something that I usually

20:18

refer to as like our three

20:20

core pillars of machine games. This

20:22

is what I want to know.

20:24

Yeah so. One of them is

20:27

obviously art and that internalize everything

20:29

within animation, audio and art,

20:31

everything that is in my

20:33

jurisdiction at the moment. Then, of

20:36

course, we have gameplay, trying to

20:38

push the envelope constantly, but

20:40

also try to push the experience

20:43

throughout the campaign so that you

20:45

get the sensation that you are

20:47

encountering new combat systems or, you

20:49

know, get new toys to plays

20:51

with or... wow this environment looks

20:53

like that and due to that

20:55

context I can now do these type

20:57

of things and then the the

21:00

one that everything starts with with

21:02

which is the narrative and then

21:04

we have kind of that you

21:06

know wholly or unholy trinity whatever

21:08

you refer to his bind together

21:10

by the tech and enabling

21:12

all of those three to to work together

21:14

and shine as much as they can

21:16

and any good developer game

21:19

studio game studio has those

21:21

guiding principles. So for listening

21:23

in your studio, you don't

21:25

have some kind of guiding pillars

21:27

that go from game to game, you should

21:29

probably do that. It's very

21:32

important. It is because I do

21:34

think that what we've been trying

21:36

to do for many, many years

21:38

and many, many games is that

21:40

you constantly also need to try

21:42

to respect those pillars in relation

21:44

to each other through our production.

21:46

Because me coming from, you know.

21:48

primarily an art focus from the

21:51

beginning, one could of course imagine that I

21:53

would only care about art, you know, make

21:55

the game as pretty as possible, but who

21:57

would play that game? Exactly. And I

21:59

think... You know, from my perspective,

22:01

coming from more of a design

22:04

perspective, I want to build on

22:06

what you're saying, because the narrative,

22:08

I think, you know, I don't know

22:10

how it works in different studios, but

22:13

at machine games, everything starts

22:15

with a script, with a narrative, like

22:17

in the first couple of months of

22:20

the project, we have more or

22:22

less locked down what the, you know, the whole

22:24

story. all the characters all

22:26

the important moments that's where

22:28

the mechanics come from and

22:30

the systems and that's the thing

22:33

like you that's that that's where

22:35

you start yeah and then again what

22:37

I think might be different that machine

22:39

games is that there is an enormous

22:42

respect to to staying true

22:44

to that like obviously we change

22:46

stuff we you know we remove

22:48

stuff we add stuff but the

22:50

story needs to be prioritized all

22:52

the way down to you know

22:55

micro gameplay interactions, they need to

22:57

support the story coming

22:59

across. Pointless without

23:01

it. Yeah, yeah. So when I work on

23:03

a game or I'm at a studio,

23:06

whether it's someplace in working

23:08

or in the past has

23:10

been my own studio, I am

23:12

absolutely psychotic about

23:14

respecting the pillars of

23:17

either the project or the

23:19

studio or the studio or

23:21

both. Ideally, you have game

23:23

pillars that feed into the

23:25

studio pillars and that's the

23:28

virtuous cycle that everyone kind

23:30

of strives for. Are you guys

23:32

at machine so cognizant

23:34

of the pillars at all times

23:36

that if something's happening that

23:38

it's not supporting those

23:41

it's out it doesn't belong because

23:43

that's I truly believe that that's

23:45

how I operate. I'm curious if

23:48

you guys do that because there

23:50

are in my opinion only

23:52

a small handful of game

23:54

development studios

23:57

where you can see the video.

24:00

of the entire company in every

24:02

game and sticks true to that.

24:04

You guys are one of those

24:06

studios. Thank you. To answer it,

24:08

you know, at least from my

24:10

point of view, is that there's

24:13

also a subset of rules when

24:15

making a game like this that

24:17

can't, the IP comes with its

24:19

own pillars also. Yes. And then

24:21

you need to start, you know,

24:24

chiming, pairing those up with the

24:26

existing pillars that we are working

24:28

from. you know, from

24:30

a game-down point of view. So

24:33

one thing that I was kind

24:35

of trying to iterate quite early

24:37

on in the project was what

24:39

would India do? You know, what

24:41

would India do? Because that could

24:43

inform a lot, right? Because for

24:46

us, it summarized a lot of

24:48

the things to make this feel

24:50

and look and behave like a,

24:52

you know, adventure game from the

24:54

80s. or, you know, since the

24:56

raiders in the Lost Ark and

24:59

the Movies is from the 80s,

25:01

or made in the 80s, but

25:03

set in the 30s, but in

25:05

production, 2024. And that comes with

25:07

a whole subset of things that

25:09

you need to look at and

25:12

think about and try to... counterbalance

25:15

and when you specifically when you're

25:17

saying like you know how how

25:19

strict can you be about the

25:21

core pillars of the studio is

25:23

if this is breaking this then

25:25

it's out or it's breaking that

25:27

then it's out yes to some

25:29

extent we are very harsh on

25:32

you know as Jan says down

25:34

to the grit just detail even

25:36

if it's a small puzzle on

25:38

the side route somewhere in the

25:40

game happening that still need to

25:42

respect. the core that we set

25:44

out to do. Nothing is too

25:46

little to be neglected in the

25:49

most perfect perfect world. But sometimes

25:51

you could get conflict in terms

25:53

of is it better to stay

25:55

strict to do this principle that

25:57

we're following? Is that really strengthening

25:59

the experience? or of the character

26:01

or the IP or the brand.

26:03

And sometimes you have to do

26:05

some juggling there and bending the

26:08

rules like, nah, this is actually

26:10

maybe not what exactly what we

26:12

would do, but this makes the

26:14

experience feel more like this Indiana

26:16

Jones experience that we want to

26:18

do. And we have, there have

26:20

been examples throughout the production when

26:22

we have been having a lot

26:25

of discussion debate in terms of

26:27

how should we trigger that cut

26:29

scene or how should we interact

26:31

with this thing. And in the

26:33

end we always try to find

26:35

a nice common ground that at

26:37

least respects the quality of the

26:39

product because that's the end goal.

26:41

But having the guiding principles paired

26:44

up with the pillars and the

26:46

guiding principles that you get from

26:48

identifying the IP and the brand

26:50

that you're working with, then you

26:52

have a very very good framework.

26:54

Yeah, perfect triangle, right? Studio pillars,

26:56

game pillars, IP pillars. It's interesting

26:58

though I think with you know

27:01

with pillars the word pillars because

27:03

I don't think we have that

27:05

outlined anywhere for this like what

27:07

are the pillars like we have

27:09

various sets of you know one

27:11

you know PowerPoint slides that defines

27:13

it doesn't have to be like

27:15

a poster on the wall yeah

27:17

obviously it's what you're describing, it's

27:20

innate to the studio. But there

27:22

are some of them that are

27:24

unique to this project, of course,

27:26

but there are some that are

27:28

so ingrained, and this is what

27:30

you're talking about, so ingrained into

27:32

the studio, like player agency is

27:34

always a good thing, like one

27:37

of those that we... We're just

27:39

not going to get a machine

27:41

games game that doesn't have that.

27:43

Yeah, exactly. So we don't even

27:45

need to write it on the

27:47

wall. Right. Because... every time we

27:49

deviate from it, there's a horde

27:51

of people around the studio that

27:54

says, no, we can't do that.

27:56

Yes, slack is popping off. Yeah,

27:58

right, right. Okay, so I really

28:00

want to talk about navigating the

28:02

IP, but I do want to,

28:04

before we go to that, because

28:06

it's a big thing, I want

28:08

to close out the mechanics conversation.

28:10

So I have some notes for

28:13

first perspective. First person perspective. So

28:15

these are things that you have

28:17

delivered in the game and they're

28:19

also completely endemic to Indiana Jones.

28:21

First person, where I talked about

28:23

first person, people will still be

28:25

arguing about this choice for ever.

28:27

Actually, hold on a second. So

28:30

I was discussing with some

28:33

a few people here at

28:35

dice in advance of this

28:37

because I like to get

28:40

people's opinions talk about it

28:42

before I talk to folks

28:44

and I'm gonna I want

28:47

to talk about uncharted just

28:49

for a second and not

28:51

in the way that you

28:54

probably think I'm going to

28:56

bring it up but uncharted

28:59

is such a popular game

29:01

franchise and it's beloved because

29:03

you know it it kind

29:06

of took the place of

29:08

what we weren't getting and

29:10

and we got it and

29:13

it's a very extremely it's

29:15

ingrained in everyone's heads because

29:17

they've played these games and

29:20

I feel like when I

29:22

was playing this game I

29:25

was I thought a lot

29:27

about like the Because

29:30

I read a lot about

29:32

the perception of first and

29:34

third person. It's a huge

29:36

huge thing this game and

29:38

there's almost this like subconscious

29:40

I Don't even know if

29:42

bias is the right word,

29:44

but it's it's like you

29:46

can't help but Like compare

29:48

the two when you're playing

29:50

the game not because you

29:52

need to it's just You

29:54

know they live in the

29:56

same mental space Was that

29:58

something that you guys like

30:00

felt or struggled with or

30:02

completely ignored did you ever

30:04

did you ever think about

30:06

that at all making this

30:08

game thinking yes but carrying

30:10

no yeah no that's that's

30:12

a simple you know and

30:14

and partly it's thanks to

30:16

do that we chose such

30:18

a different path yeah so

30:20

there was there was no

30:22

chance we gonna really do

30:24

the same thing right so

30:26

so it didn't really impact

30:29

good. I mean the great

30:31

games we love them as

30:33

well. Fantastic. But it's very

30:35

very obvious when we started

30:37

very early on in the

30:39

project started to like dissect

30:41

analyze the IP the brand

30:43

the character as getting the

30:45

bullet pointless or what's what's

30:47

the identity here what's the

30:49

key things that we want

30:51

to hit and as soon

30:53

as you've identified those you

30:55

also get a huge amount

30:57

of things that the game

30:59

and the IP and the

31:01

brand is not. And then

31:03

there are a lot of

31:05

games or another reference point,

31:07

so it's like not interested.

31:09

Right. But, um. Good, good

31:11

answer. That's the answer I

31:13

was hoping for. Okay, the

31:15

mechanic package, first person, obviously

31:17

indie games have to have

31:19

incredible and diverse environments, but

31:21

puzzle solving, the way the

31:23

puzzles were integrated into the

31:25

world and the narrative, chef's

31:27

kiss. I thought the camera

31:30

was really well done. The

31:32

melee, the whip, the guns,

31:34

the stealth, and then those

31:36

are all things that you

31:38

expect from Indiana Jones and

31:40

they were absolutely well done.

31:42

A lot of them, right?

31:44

Yeah, it's a lot. And

31:46

then you go a little

31:48

bit deeper into the stamina

31:50

system and the adventure books

31:52

and the points. I mean,

31:54

there's a big list. It's

31:56

a big list of things

31:58

that I wrote down. Do

32:00

you feel, do you guys,

32:02

you specifically ends, but I

32:04

mean, it's a question for

32:06

both you, do you feel like

32:08

you guys achieved the fan

32:10

expectation of what

32:13

Indy is supposed to be

32:15

doing in a game

32:17

interactively? I think so. Looking

32:19

at what people are saying

32:21

about it, it feels like we,

32:24

we, we did that, we did

32:26

exactly that, you know, breaking

32:28

down what what you would

32:30

expect if you were in

32:32

the and finding alignment with what

32:34

do you want to do as

32:36

a player in these kind of

32:39

situations and doing all those

32:41

things that's that's how this feature

32:43

list was created more or less

32:45

yeah and then you know getting

32:48

each and every one of those

32:50

features to a level where we

32:52

felt that it feels like an

32:54

Indianian's mechanic and feels

32:57

fun and polished enough for

32:59

to fit together with the

33:01

whole with the whole package.

33:03

Yeah, super happy with with

33:05

the result of that, of

33:08

course. Yeah, it feels very

33:10

satisfying and systemic

33:13

and fun and exciting.

33:15

Like, even navigating

33:17

the menus was fun and

33:19

exciting. So I really think

33:22

you guys nailed that and

33:24

But I think it's a very

33:26

interesting point that you raise

33:28

because this is something that we

33:30

were working a lot with specifically

33:33

on design side of things in

33:35

relation to also, you know, making

33:38

sure that you constantly feel like

33:40

in Jana Jones because we

33:42

don't have the luxury of having

33:44

a reference point of a,

33:46

for example, in

33:49

Jenna Jones and The Lost Crusade

33:51

or Raiders of the Lost Ark

33:53

TV series that shows like, you

33:55

know, 500 episodes of what he's

33:57

doing when he's not hunting for

33:59

death. specific thing that he's obsessed

34:01

with. In the movies, he's basically

34:04

just following his golden path. Making

34:06

a game that is not supposed to be

34:08

just six hours or, you know, hunting down

34:10

a golden path and finding the thing,

34:13

but allow the player to explore a

34:15

very vast and open world, is that

34:17

in the, would in the, you know,

34:19

sidetracked from his golden path and doing

34:21

things on the side? And yes, from

34:24

a game playing point of view, and

34:26

to build a cool and fun, interesting

34:28

adventure game, we absolutely need to allow

34:30

the player to do that. We absolutely need

34:32

the character to go off the main

34:35

trail and do things on the other

34:37

side. And then... But it never felt

34:39

like that. It always felt like

34:41

appropriate and necessary in a fun

34:43

way. That's very nice. Yeah. And

34:45

cool that you feel that way

34:48

and that you say that. Because

34:50

that was the kind of the

34:52

mission that we had. Even when

34:54

you are in the outskirts of

34:56

the Giesemap and doing some weird

34:58

mystery or little side mission, you

35:01

should still feel like Indiana Jones

35:03

and you should still feel like

35:05

it feeds back into the main

35:07

storyline. Yes, and that's a good

35:09

point. I want to interrupt

35:11

you there because when you watch,

35:14

Raiders of Lost Ark, for the

35:16

first time or the thousands time,

35:18

what's... brilliant about

35:20

that character and the

35:22

story is that there's all

35:25

these things that are kind

35:27

of referenced that you

35:29

don't have any context

35:31

for, but you believe them

35:34

because they fit into the

35:36

ethos of who Indiana Jones

35:38

is and those those kind

35:40

of adventures. And it's

35:42

kind of, I really felt like

35:45

whether it was on purpose

35:47

that you guys. tapped into

35:49

those little offhand comments

35:51

that he's always making

35:53

referencing you know things in the

35:55

past and I felt that when I

35:58

was exploring I was kind of Filling

36:00

those things out a little bit

36:03

and you know Look India Jones

36:05

is super important to me. Reyes

36:07

a lost arc was like a

36:10

very Like watershed moment my life

36:12

was like a bonding thing with

36:15

my dad and it's like It's

36:17

not it's it's an important movie.

36:19

You know this we've talked about

36:22

this many times and like the

36:24

way that the game and the

36:26

mechanics Tapp into those like moments

36:29

again. I could just be making

36:31

this up in my head I

36:34

don't know if you guys were

36:36

doing this or not, but I

36:38

guess it doesn't matter because that's

36:41

what I felt when I played

36:43

the game and that's the important

36:45

part right I had an experience

36:48

that was genuine to Indiana Jones

36:50

or what I felt and was

36:53

that something that you guys like

36:55

Actually said no we got to

36:57

like feed these little seeds and

37:00

plant them all around and work

37:02

on that? Or am I just

37:04

making it up? Well, both, kind

37:07

of, like any time you're making

37:09

aim, you're kind of searching for,

37:12

you know, what is this experience?

37:14

We knew that, for example, exploration

37:16

needed to be a big part.

37:19

We wanted, like, from the start,

37:21

we set out to do these

37:24

kind of big sandbox style areas.

37:26

But... Honestly, we didn't have the

37:28

experience for what that meant. We

37:31

have never done areas this big

37:33

before at machine games or at

37:35

storeberries. So how do we build

37:38

those? How do we populate those?

37:40

How do we pace those? That

37:43

was stuff we needed to figure

37:45

out throughout the development. But of

37:47

course, like, we knew it needed

37:50

to feel like in the Indiana

37:52

Jones. Exactly what that means. That's

37:54

something you kind of need to

37:57

discover by testing stuff. Yeah. You

37:59

know, being underground for an hour.

38:02

and a half in the single

38:04

dungeon, is that Indiana Jones or

38:06

is that too much? Does that

38:09

become, you know, a London crawler

38:11

game? And throughout the development we

38:13

found a lot of stuff that

38:16

were, like these small mysteries are

38:18

one of my favorite design elements

38:21

in this game, you know, how

38:23

do we do those self-contained but

38:25

still feed into the fantasy of

38:28

being Indiana Jones? How do we

38:30

produce those? How do we introduce

38:33

those to the player in a

38:35

way where it's not icons on

38:37

a map for example, but something

38:40

that the player can discover on

38:42

their own? That feels more like

38:44

Indiana Jones. Yeah. So finding such

38:47

elements throughout the development that's probably

38:49

more correct than saying that we

38:52

knew exactly what we wanted to

38:54

do from the start. So every

38:56

game that I've ever worked on

38:59

as a designer or creative or

39:01

whatever. There's always that moment where

39:03

you like put something down on

39:06

paper and you're like this is

39:08

it Did did did the this

39:11

is it moment survive or or

39:13

did you? Were you clear on

39:15

that thing or did you try

39:18

to stop put things down on

39:20

paper? Yeah, well, you know, it

39:23

never works. Yeah, no, of course

39:25

like You have ideas You are

39:27

right about half the time. Yeah

39:30

And for half the time you

39:32

mess up, you implement stuff, that

39:34

doesn't work, you have to rework

39:37

it. There are features that require

39:39

countless iterations before they got close

39:42

to feeling right. And some of

39:44

them just dropped in our lap.

39:46

So it's that journey to discover

39:49

what you want to do. Yeah,

39:51

I mean, it must have been

39:53

scary for you guys to jump

39:56

into that. open exploration pond or

39:58

scary and interesting right yeah that's

40:01

why we are in this this

40:03

business because we want to go

40:05

on that journey there's this great

40:08

David Bowie quote I'm gonna I'm

40:10

gonna butcher it but he's like

40:12

in your career in your creativity

40:15

and whatever you're doing you want

40:17

to feel like you're in the

40:20

water but just not able to

40:22

touch the bottom just kind of

40:24

floating like I but I butchered

40:27

this quote so poorly it's But

40:29

you get what I'm saying. Yeah,

40:32

yeah. And, and, like, it seems

40:34

like, you know, from what you're

40:36

describing, like, maybe that's how you

40:39

guys were approaching this, because. That's

40:41

how you approach every game, right?

40:43

Yeah, yeah. You, you, you want

40:46

to push it as far as

40:48

you can without losing control. Yeah,

40:51

you don't want to feel, like,

40:53

it's, it's good to feel unsafe

40:55

and not confident, right, right? that's

40:58

where the magic kind of through

41:00

peer around that corner and finally

41:02

like figure it out. But I

41:05

think one just to like back

41:07

up to what you said in

41:10

the beginning of the question in

41:12

terms of you know those small

41:14

little nuggets of information or bits

41:17

and pieces of in the throwing

41:19

out comments on things because what's

41:21

interesting with that to me is

41:24

it gives layers and depth to

41:26

the world it suggests that this

41:29

is a rich world. And I

41:31

think that's what we've been trying

41:33

to pick up on and specific

41:36

going into the aspect of exploration

41:38

and doing a game that is

41:41

much more than just a linear

41:43

game and has more of an

41:45

open-ended solution type of setup. Really

41:48

expanding the fantasy of being Indiana

41:50

Jones, having a rich world where

41:52

you can do a lot of

41:55

different things. I think that's been

41:57

a really, really, Scary and interesting.

42:00

It's hard, right, because you have

42:02

a level of fidelity that you

42:04

need to achieve as a AAA

42:07

game. The art needs to be

42:09

top-notch. At the same time, you

42:11

want to, you know, interactivity was

42:14

a big pillar, if you will,

42:16

for this game. Like, how do

42:19

we make as much stuff in

42:21

the world as we can interact

42:23

with? So we can hide interactions,

42:26

like, you know, creating a mystery

42:28

around every corner was something I

42:30

try to... you know, say every

42:33

chance I got. And to do

42:35

that through interactivity, that's what makes

42:38

it interesting because it becomes a

42:40

player, it's the player that discovers

42:42

the mystery. And finding the balance,

42:45

how far can we push that

42:47

without completely tearing up our production

42:50

processes so we can make it

42:52

to this fidelity that we all

42:54

expect it to be. As an

42:57

Indiana Jones experience, it's the best

42:59

one. Thank you. You guys did

43:01

it. Podcast over. Okay, so now

43:04

I want to talk about a

43:06

couple things, like the challenges of

43:09

the IP. Missions to Mars, driverless

43:11

cars, AI chat bots, feels like

43:13

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44:15

York State Department of Financial

44:17

Services. I want to talk

44:19

a little bit about Troy.

44:21

We have an episode coming up

44:24

with him so I won't go too far

44:26

into it but nice but okay so

44:28

first of all Remaking the

44:30

beginning of Raiders of the

44:32

Lost Ark was insane. And

44:34

let me tell you something. When

44:36

I, when I, when I, I stopped

44:39

looking at anything or reading

44:41

anything about this game after

44:44

the reveal. I knew you guys

44:46

would be fine, but you know, you

44:48

proved it to everyone and

44:50

then I stopped. I did not

44:52

know about this. Cool. The way

44:55

it was intended. Now. That

44:57

is an absolute bawler

45:00

move to remake the

45:02

beginning of Raiders the

45:05

Lost Ark. Let's get

45:07

into it because I

45:10

mean first of all

45:12

it's very satisfying and

45:14

also obviously perfectly

45:17

set up the

45:19

game. Except the tone.

45:21

Yeah, but like that's

45:24

like hallowed ground.

45:26

Most IP based games tend

45:28

not to do that stuff. It's

45:30

it's all about You know, we

45:32

want to make our own our own

45:34

mark which you you obviously did afterwards,

45:37

but like Talk to me about

45:39

doing that and The challenges in that

45:41

I mean, it's a super loaded thing

45:44

to do. It's it's a risk. Yeah,

45:46

it is huge risk of course

45:48

and huge investments Like when I

45:51

saw that mountain I was like

45:53

no way No way, they're not doing

45:55

this. This is like a cut scene

45:57

or something like there's no way Sorry

46:00

Yeah. I'm glad to hear you

46:02

like it. You know, I think

46:04

we're very happy in the

46:06

end how it turned out as

46:09

well, but there was a lot

46:11

of blood sweat and

46:13

tears involved in getting

46:16

it to the, you know, to

46:18

the stage that it is when

46:20

we ship the game. But

46:22

I do think that we

46:24

often, you know, tend to...

46:27

ourselves think from the perspective

46:29

of wouldn't it be cool if you

46:31

know and yeah it would be super cool

46:33

wouldn't it be super cool to play

46:35

that you know sopping the sand that

46:37

either you know solving the puzzles you

46:40

know doing the whole thing that the

46:42

trap stuff wouldn't that be cool would

46:44

it be insane and very difficult

46:46

yeah absolutely is this a crazy

46:48

challenge yes absolutely let's do it

46:51

anyway yeah so I think that's

46:53

kind of the the approach that

46:55

we very often have in terms

46:58

of we do not back down

47:00

from the challenge that we put

47:02

in front of us and sometimes

47:04

we beat ourselves for it in

47:06

the retrospect like why we do

47:08

why would we why did we

47:10

but this is one of those

47:12

times when it actually turned out

47:14

very satisfying in the end and

47:16

of course also you know during

47:18

the process of doing that we

47:20

have the best reference in the

47:22

world right yeah which also proves

47:24

then a bit challenging later on

47:27

because now we don't have the best

47:29

reference in the world. We do have

47:31

the best reference in the world in

47:33

that sense and context of

47:35

the movies, but not frame by

47:37

frame. And that of course also

47:39

proves to be extremely difficult because

47:42

how do you match that? And

47:44

I mean, I've seen plenty of

47:46

people doing comparison videos and whatnot

47:48

and obviously it is not.

47:50

you know, pixel perfect frame by

47:52

frame all the time. Yeah, but

47:54

that's that's what makes it so

47:57

cool. Like, for example, I've

47:59

never seen the right turn from

48:01

the pit into the temple

48:03

room, but I know that

48:06

exists. And seeing that was

48:08

like, it just felt like

48:10

I already knew that and

48:12

it was so cool seeing that

48:14

and also showing all that from

48:17

different camera angles, like

48:19

the scenes that you,

48:21

you know, that are ingrained in

48:23

our in our minds was

48:26

very smart, just a

48:28

very well done. take on that

48:30

and it is a take right you

48:32

are doing it but but it's it's

48:34

a take yes and I found that

48:36

really refreshing rather than we're gonna

48:38

recreate it frame by frame by

48:41

frame that's really nice and I

48:43

mean there are numerous numerous reasons

48:45

why sometimes it is not you

48:47

know frame by frame because we're

48:50

making a game yeah needs to sit

48:52

together in the in the level

48:54

in the map there are things

48:57

you know that we just possibly

48:59

can't make fun gameplay out of

49:01

that potentially exists. You

49:03

have a lot of artists and

49:06

level designers that

49:08

are extremely fatigued by

49:10

frame stepping that scene to

49:13

try to figure out like

49:15

how do these clips fit

49:17

together and you know yeah

49:19

that left turn corridor before

49:22

the pressure plate puzzle

49:24

for example like you have

49:27

like a corner of the screen

49:29

showing that that's probably how it

49:31

looks. I actually don't know for

49:33

sure if it's, if we can

49:36

say that it's 100% correct. But

49:38

yeah, they really work to try

49:40

to recreate it. But something that

49:43

I find interesting with that

49:45

whole scene is that it's,

49:47

it kind of started as a

49:49

design exercise for, you know, what

49:51

if we break down this scene?

49:53

into to gameplay moments what kind

49:56

of gameplay moments would would that

49:58

be so this was before we had some

50:00

of the core systems like the

50:03

interaction system in place. So by

50:05

going through that whole scene and

50:07

saying like, oh, and then you pick up

50:09

the golden idol, well, how does that

50:11

work? Like you switch it to the

50:14

sandbag. How does that work? How does

50:16

that work with the controller? Yeah,

50:18

we all know how it works

50:20

in our minds, but how does

50:22

it work on the control? So

50:24

going through that exercise was really

50:26

interesting because it also helped us

50:28

help us. what kind of interactions

50:30

would we want to be doing

50:32

as a player in the annuals

50:35

game? The flop side of this was

50:37

of course we did this super early and

50:39

you know recorded animations and

50:41

recorded like spent a huge amount

50:43

of work of getting a first

50:45

version of this in and then

50:47

of course you need to change

50:50

the mechanics down the line. So now

50:52

this you know whole opening scene needs

50:54

to be reworked with new mechanics and

50:56

and That's where it becomes

50:59

very a lot of you know,

51:01

we work and changes

51:03

and fixes going over

51:05

throughout the whole all development

51:08

to get it to to fit the

51:10

game that comes later Yeah,

51:12

and I mean when you as

51:15

as game makers we all

51:17

know how important those first

51:19

15 minutes are and You

51:21

know that could have that could

51:23

have gone the wrong way, you

51:25

know because it's such a

51:27

beloved piece of history in terms

51:30

of what it what how you know that

51:32

scene is definitely transcends

51:34

like pop culture and

51:36

it transcends Indiana Jones

51:39

it's like part of

51:41

history and then obviously

51:43

there's all the Indiana

51:45

Jones stuff so let's yeah I

51:47

mean it's also I mean It ties

51:50

back to your previous questions well

51:52

in terms of expanding the world

51:54

and the nuggets of like pieces

51:57

of information you have, you know,

51:59

we see four. first all, you know,

52:01

for example, dead in the

52:03

trap. So, okay, cool. We

52:05

can make an opportunity out

52:07

of that and actually find

52:09

his abandoned camp and tell

52:11

a little bit more backstory,

52:13

you know, expanding the, expanding

52:15

the experience. And I think that

52:18

has also been, you know, throughout

52:20

the entire work with this game,

52:22

a very interesting journey

52:24

to try to see around the corner

52:26

what's happening over there. this

52:29

beginning of the game really offered

52:31

some really cool solutions or you

52:33

know opportunities for that. And also

52:35

I just wanted to quickly throw

52:37

out there that you know specifically

52:39

working on this section of the

52:42

game the beginning of it we got

52:44

you know a very valuable help

52:46

from Lucas Film Games in terms

52:48

of the collaboration with them getting

52:50

access to their archives seeing you

52:53

know photos from sets concept art

52:55

that I've never seen from the

52:57

original. movie, you know, outlining

52:59

some components or design feature

53:02

that you could... Okay, now

53:04

we understand how this actually

53:07

connects in the movie because

53:09

it's impossible to understand just

53:12

looking at the screen. And

53:14

that was also very, very

53:16

helpful. Those are special days

53:18

when you get access to the

53:20

archives. Yes. Some of my favorite

53:23

memories ever. Very, very fun.

53:25

Okay, so the challenges of... of

53:27

this IP and any IP

53:29

are great. It's difficult

53:32

to, it's difficult making

53:34

any game of any

53:36

kind is difficult. We know

53:38

this making a great game

53:40

is difficult and then making

53:43

a great game of a beloved

53:45

IP is like what I said

53:48

earlier at beginning. There are

53:50

very few of those things.

53:52

This one is one of them.

53:54

We already know that. It

53:56

was a very unique and

53:59

ultimate. wise choice to pick

54:01

you guys to make this

54:03

game. It worked out for

54:05

everyone. But you know,

54:08

Jens and I have worked

54:10

on Star Wars and

54:12

maybe tried Indiana Jones

54:15

like here and there. We

54:17

know how how difficult that

54:19

is and how protective

54:22

IP holders are of

54:24

the IP, especially Lucas

54:27

film. talk about like

54:29

the challenges of that. They

54:31

are very when they're when

54:33

they're invested in in something

54:35

it's the collaboration is

54:38

awesome right seems like that was

54:40

the case here. Yeah I

54:42

mean we have from the

54:44

very very early days of

54:46

the project been in continuous

54:48

meetings with them and communication

54:51

and I think that I don't want

54:53

to say that we were lucky.

54:55

Okay, but it just happened to

54:57

be that our vision as fans

55:00

of the IP, the character, we

55:02

had our vision of what we

55:04

wanted to lift forward

55:06

and what we wanted to

55:09

portray, how we wanted to

55:11

portray Indiana Jones, because he

55:13

is a character that has

55:15

a, you know, a couple

55:17

of different personas throughout his

55:19

timeline, basically. So what we

55:21

chose was stay close to

55:24

Raiders of the Lost Ark

55:26

and what type of his character

55:28

traits are the ones that we

55:30

want to push forward and highlight

55:32

and which versions of him do we

55:34

want to not emphasize and move

55:36

forward with and when we presented

55:39

our vision or what we wanted

55:41

to do that aligned with Lucas

55:43

Film Games vision or what they

55:45

also felt, yes, this sits well with

55:47

us in terms of what type of

55:49

Indiana Jones we want to... to

55:51

make and portray. And I

55:54

think that's why I'm saying

55:56

like, you know, lucky if that's

55:58

such a thing, you know. we aligned

56:00

very early on and thanks

56:02

to us aligning very early

56:05

on I think the collaboration

56:07

with them has been very

56:09

very cool I think shout out

56:11

to Craig Derek yes

56:13

of course the wonderful

56:15

executive user Lucas some games

56:18

Craig Derek and you know

56:20

this is also this is not our

56:22

first license game we worked on so

56:24

so we kind of we know some

56:27

of the pitfalls to avoid

56:29

you know if there's anything

56:31

that I think helped us

56:33

here as well is again

56:35

going back to the process

56:37

we have like you know

56:39

starting having the the story

56:41

nailed down from the start

56:43

that allowed us to be agree

56:46

on all the big all the

56:48

important stuff you know within

56:50

months of starting development

56:53

of this game and and

56:55

you know once you have cracked

56:57

that the rest is easier, like

56:59

that's going to be the part

57:02

that they are most protective about,

57:04

like what is, how are we

57:06

portraying the characters, you know, what

57:09

is the story we want to

57:11

tell, with that done early, you know,

57:13

you can spend time talking

57:15

about details almost, and they

57:17

can fit in with their expertise

57:19

about everything in the Aneons and

57:22

the access they have to, to

57:24

everything, and we can work on...

57:26

and we can work on... just

57:29

trying to get the game to

57:31

live up to the story we have

57:33

presented to the story we've

57:35

written for the rest of

57:37

the development. So I mean there's

57:40

been invaluable sessions and you

57:42

know insights, things that we

57:44

couldn't possibly know about

57:47

how certain things are portrayed

57:49

within the franchise. So it's

57:51

been a really cool learning

57:53

experience. So it's been

57:55

a really cool learning

57:57

experience. and invaluable.

58:00

relationship with them throughout the

58:02

entirety and I mean sure

58:04

talking about them being protective

58:06

of their brands or the IP you

58:08

know with all rights but I we

58:10

haven't experienced that as being

58:12

like a you know a negative

58:14

aspect of development it's been a

58:17

very cool and interesting

58:19

collaboration with them and I

58:21

think that you know like I said

58:23

I think that we are aligned very

58:25

early on and then we continue to

58:27

have you know regular meetings throughout

58:29

I've been in meetings basically

58:31

on a weekly basis for

58:33

you know four years or

58:35

whatever with them and all

58:37

different representatives within machine games

58:40

have had meetings with representatives

58:42

of their departments as well

58:44

you know audio narrative

58:47

lower all of these things so

58:49

obviously great experience yes yeah cool

58:51

second Indiana Jones game

58:53

confirmed So one of

58:56

the amazing things about

58:58

Indiana Jones as

59:00

a character is that

59:03

he's so successful

59:05

because he's not and

59:08

He's beloved because We

59:10

can see all of

59:12

ourselves in Indiana

59:15

Jones because he's

59:17

not perfect. He fucks

59:19

up He's one of us

59:21

and That's a timeless

59:24

quality no matter no

59:26

matter where or when It's

59:29

set set in the 30s

59:31

still pertains to today. I

59:33

think the last thing

59:35

I want to talk about

59:37

of my enormous list

59:40

We're not going to

59:42

get to everything is

59:44

Troy Can't talk about

59:46

this game without talking

59:48

about that performance

59:51

Uncanny Eerie. Very

59:53

Amazing. Amazing.

59:56

What was that

59:58

like? I mean... It

1:00:00

seems like I've said in this

1:00:02

in this podcast so much was

1:00:04

hinging on this thing and

1:00:06

like a lot of things were

1:00:09

hinging on things to make this game

1:00:11

and certainly this this was

1:00:13

one of them yeah right like you

1:00:15

can't phone in Harrison Ford or

1:00:18

Indiana Jones just cannot and

1:00:20

if it's not believable the

1:00:22

game will not work it worked

1:00:25

extremely stressful, I would

1:00:27

say, from time to time.

1:00:29

It's been one of the

1:00:31

singular things, at least from

1:00:33

my point of view, being,

1:00:36

you know, creative director and,

1:00:38

you know, to the extent

1:00:40

responsible for, you

1:00:42

know, audio animation and art,

1:00:44

how things look, sound and

1:00:47

behave. So getting that right

1:00:49

was extremely stressful and, you

1:00:51

know, difficult. It wouldn't. it

1:00:54

wouldn't be it would be

1:00:56

a lie to say anything

1:00:58

else but if we didn't have

1:01:01

Troy I have a hard time

1:01:03

seeing this yeah there's real

1:01:05

no no real alternative no

1:01:08

there wasn't consider at this

1:01:10

point you know so it's

1:01:12

you can't really like underline

1:01:15

that enough choice contribution and

1:01:17

I I think I've said

1:01:20

before but I'll say it

1:01:22

again when when I heard the

1:01:24

first test lines from his

1:01:26

audition. I thought it was

1:01:28

the reference lines. So, and

1:01:30

I was like, oh yeah, cool, okay,

1:01:32

that's the reference lines of

1:01:35

Harrison Ford. It's like, no,

1:01:37

that was Troy. Are you kidding

1:01:40

me? You know, you can swear

1:01:42

on this podcast. Okay, cool. Yeah.

1:01:44

But yeah, that was surreal. And

1:01:47

then when we seen and

1:01:49

follow him throughout the entire...

1:01:51

production scene seeing him

1:01:53

in either it's just you know

1:01:55

in video sessions recordings or like

1:01:58

full motion capture or what not

1:02:00

and see the transformation

1:02:02

that he's doing when

1:02:05

he goes into character. So

1:02:07

yeah, real craftsmanship,

1:02:10

rare, I would say. Yeah, I, um,

1:02:12

I wasn't skeptical,

1:02:14

but I was like, I couldn't

1:02:16

really hear him doing

1:02:19

the voice until I heard

1:02:21

it. And it was wild.

1:02:23

Like, holy cow. And it's

1:02:25

not only the voice either. It's

1:02:27

the whole execution. Yeah. And I

1:02:29

think that's something that a

1:02:31

lot of people, you know, might

1:02:34

not fully understand. And I mean,

1:02:36

if you're game dev, then potentially

1:02:38

you can understand parts of it,

1:02:40

you know, of course, but to

1:02:43

many fans of the franchise or,

1:02:45

you know, people else playing the

1:02:47

game, it's sometimes hard to understand

1:02:49

and know, like everything that

1:02:52

goes on behind this. because

1:02:54

he as he says is

1:02:56

not only the voice but

1:02:58

it's so much more complex

1:03:00

than that yeah because we

1:03:02

have the the full performance

1:03:04

it's a full totally yeah

1:03:07

nuanced and ranged yes acting

1:03:09

performance yeah because his face

1:03:11

is driving the rig you

1:03:13

know so he's not only

1:03:16

making the voice it's also

1:03:18

mimicking and doing all the things

1:03:20

and doing all the things the

1:03:23

correct facial animations going on. Then

1:03:25

obviously sometimes we need to go

1:03:27

in and tweak that and make

1:03:30

sure that it gets, you know,

1:03:32

but he's doing that and then

1:03:34

also doing the, you know, mimicking the

1:03:37

body and body language and

1:03:39

at the same time doing acting,

1:03:41

you know, against someone else

1:03:44

and sometimes doing, you know,

1:03:46

very complicated scenes. And then

1:03:48

you get all of that

1:03:51

combined together. So that is

1:03:53

really like... full talent performance

1:03:55

of impressive range. Yeah,

1:03:58

I think like... There's

1:04:01

a bunch of different

1:04:03

ways it could have gone

1:04:05

like you know how like Troy

1:04:07

is obviously like

1:04:09

you know Basically our version

1:04:12

of whatever Harrison

1:04:14

Ford or whatever

1:04:16

great actor like you know

1:04:18

He's certainly been

1:04:20

having a moment for

1:04:22

quite some time and when

1:04:24

you I personally don't

1:04:27

like when games higher

1:04:29

famous actors to do,

1:04:31

you know, it pulls me

1:04:34

out every time. I

1:04:37

understand why it's done

1:04:39

and, you know, I'm probably

1:04:42

the minority. Like, I

1:04:44

think that would have

1:04:47

been upsetting to

1:04:49

me in this game to

1:04:51

have to listen to

1:04:53

an actor from maybe

1:04:56

film or TV. to

1:04:58

really kind of try to

1:05:01

embody Indiana Jones

1:05:03

in a way that I don't think

1:05:05

like I mean this performance

1:05:08

is totally nuts I mean

1:05:11

also famously now endorsed

1:05:13

by Harris and Ford

1:05:15

so yeah that was fun and

1:05:18

I mean the one of

1:05:20

the coolest things with with

1:05:22

Troy is that he's his

1:05:24

passion for this project and

1:05:26

his to the project has

1:05:29

just been you know through the roof he's

1:05:31

done so much more than he's been

1:05:33

asked to do just because he has

1:05:35

also you know had to have a great

1:05:37

passion for the for the character and

1:05:40

for the game so it has added

1:05:42

so much you know he's been

1:05:44

very very much into he's even

1:05:46

been participating in like block out

1:05:48

sessions before the mock-up sessions he

1:05:50

hasn't just showed up and then

1:05:53

delivering he's been really trying to

1:05:55

be part of the process. So

1:05:57

true a true collaborator in every

1:05:59

sense. Yes, and then of course

1:06:01

that wouldn't be possible if he

1:06:04

would have been an ass, but

1:06:06

he's an absolutely fantastic person to

1:06:08

be around and work with as

1:06:10

well. So has just been a

1:06:13

genuine, very nice experience, getting

1:06:15

to know a very humble, a nice person,

1:06:17

and then at the same time,

1:06:20

a very true professional in terms

1:06:22

of executing on his craft, you know,

1:06:24

through the roof in terms of

1:06:26

expectations that we had. So

1:06:29

you guys have, you've achieved

1:06:32

the goal, you did the

1:06:34

impossible. What are like, what are

1:06:36

both of your like personal

1:06:38

takeaways from this whole experience?

1:06:40

You know, like, where, where

1:06:42

does it, four or five

1:06:44

years? Yeah, where does it

1:06:46

sit with you guys right

1:06:49

now? Are you like, you know,

1:06:51

well, I'll, I'll let you answer

1:06:53

that, you know, because like, as

1:06:55

a creative, it's very

1:06:57

difficult to, consume the thing

1:06:59

that you made without looking at it and

1:07:01

saying, oh, that's not as good as it

1:07:04

could have been. And I'm not asking for

1:07:06

what you could have done better. I'm

1:07:08

just really more curious, like, you know,

1:07:10

you're kind of, you're at the end of

1:07:12

the run of this thing, basically, you

1:07:14

know, and whatever's next is next, we're

1:07:16

not going to get into that, but

1:07:19

like, you know, you've had this amazing

1:07:21

experience doing, again, the impossible.

1:07:23

Where is to say it with you guys?

1:07:25

I think at least for me

1:07:27

and I think that's true for

1:07:30

a lot of people in the

1:07:32

studio. This has been a

1:07:34

very very personal project.

1:07:36

A lot of us

1:07:38

have invested so much into

1:07:40

it. So coming out on the

1:07:43

other end, seeing that we kind

1:07:45

of our, the mission that we

1:07:47

had and what we believed in

1:07:49

paid off in terms of

1:07:51

fans loving it. So that's one

1:07:54

part of, you know, the closure

1:07:56

of this basically as, you

1:07:58

know, the sensation. of nice,

1:08:00

there it is, and it turned

1:08:03

out really nice. And then

1:08:05

there are so many small

1:08:07

stories throughout the production itself

1:08:09

that are, like, you

1:08:12

know, fond memories, but

1:08:14

without taking up too much

1:08:16

time talking about all the

1:08:19

good stuff that I remember,

1:08:21

but at least a few

1:08:23

of them is, for example,

1:08:25

when we, when I felt

1:08:27

and when we saw that

1:08:29

okay. likeness is on. Now we've

1:08:31

nailed it. We had a certain

1:08:33

scene that we were polishing the

1:08:36

hell out of to try to

1:08:38

nail the look and the

1:08:40

visual fidelity of the in-game

1:08:42

render with driven by choice

1:08:45

performance. And when we finally

1:08:47

saw, okay, there it is.

1:08:50

That was like, okay, then we

1:08:52

can do it. We can do

1:08:54

it. That's out of the question.

1:08:56

And another one for me.

1:08:58

on a personal level as

1:09:01

well was meeting and see

1:09:03

Tony Todd working with him

1:09:05

and seeing him acting

1:09:07

and performing and then

1:09:09

obviously extremely sad we all

1:09:11

are at machine games with

1:09:13

his with his passing and

1:09:15

that he's no longer with

1:09:17

us but having the chance

1:09:19

and opportunity to actually work

1:09:21

with him and seeing him

1:09:24

deliver the locus character that

1:09:26

was also extremely cool.

1:09:28

this immense feeling of

1:09:30

being grateful and and

1:09:33

thankful for for everything

1:09:35

that led up to to this

1:09:37

game coming out in in the shape

1:09:39

it did like as you know as

1:09:41

a game developer you get

1:09:43

tunnel vision by the end

1:09:46

you you really don't know like

1:09:48

you have a sense of is

1:09:50

it crap or not of course

1:09:52

yeah but you're at you're

1:09:54

at that like god just Let's just put it

1:09:56

out. Yeah, and when you're doing it, you have

1:09:58

your death, your date, you worked. word was

1:10:00

date, you know, you put in

1:10:03

the extra hours, the whole team

1:10:05

really came together and you have

1:10:07

no idea how much stuff went

1:10:09

in for the last six months

1:10:12

of the project and things we

1:10:14

changed. So it's this, you know,

1:10:16

bubbling soup that gets put into

1:10:18

this package and put out there.

1:10:21

And, you know, if you fail

1:10:23

there and there's so many points

1:10:25

you could have failed there, like...

1:10:27

even like you talked about choice

1:10:30

performance if that wasn't up to

1:10:32

par the response wouldn't have been

1:10:34

as great and you would have

1:10:36

well it simply couldn't have come

1:10:39

out yeah right and you would

1:10:41

have kind of lost four or

1:10:43

five years of investment yeah so

1:10:45

pew is what you said like

1:10:48

we kind of made it so

1:10:50

so we don't take that lightly

1:10:52

that's that's amazing that's that's amazing

1:10:54

that's amazing we're so that we

1:10:57

didn't fuck this up. You didn't.

1:10:59

I personally want to thank you

1:11:01

guys for not fucking it up.

1:11:04

I never thought you would. I

1:11:06

was always a believer of it

1:11:08

in the beginning and you know

1:11:10

I got to play the game.

1:11:13

Excuse me, the game I wanted.

1:11:15

I'm not getting emotional. Maybe I'm

1:11:17

getting emotional. It was just really

1:11:19

wonderful. I hope you guys get

1:11:22

to do another one. Never stop

1:11:24

making Wolfenstein games. Please, they're my

1:11:26

favorite. Cool. I fucking love those

1:11:28

games so much. Cool. And I

1:11:31

hope that tomorrow, get to see

1:11:33

you guys on stage, accepting a

1:11:35

trophy for Game of the Year

1:11:37

for Indiana Jones. Yeah, a great

1:11:40

circle. Thank you for the kind

1:11:42

of words. We hope so as

1:11:44

well. And I think, you know,

1:11:46

it's also something. you know talking

1:11:49

about the great experience making this

1:11:51

game and you know in the

1:11:53

aftermath looking at you know what's

1:11:56

the highlights all of this coming

1:11:58

out. And one thing that we

1:12:00

also talked about before and internally

1:12:02

is, you know, it takes so

1:12:05

many to do this, you know,

1:12:07

the full team, the full studio.

1:12:09

And what that is doing is

1:12:11

you're, I mean, you're creating so

1:12:14

many new friendships, you're crafting so

1:12:16

many new strong bonds with your

1:12:18

coworkers and you know, you come

1:12:20

together so much more stronger after.

1:12:23

going through this type of hellfire

1:12:25

experience. So you know in the

1:12:27

end it's it's always a shout

1:12:29

out you know to the team

1:12:32

back home and the amazing team

1:12:34

we have that machine games. Just

1:12:36

sticking in there and believing in

1:12:38

the product and delivering on it.

1:12:41

Well it paid off you're up

1:12:43

for Game of the Year so

1:12:45

great job guys. Thank you for

1:12:48

being on the podcast. Thanks. Thank

1:12:57

you for joining us for

1:12:59

the Game Maker's Notebook. For

1:13:01

more information on the Academy

1:13:03

of Interactive Arts and Sciences,

1:13:05

our podcasts and our other

1:13:08

initiatives, please visit www. interactive.org.

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