0:01

This is the illusionist in

0:03

which I, is The Illusionist in

0:05

which I, Helen a bone. You throw

0:07

language a bone. distant you will

0:09

hear some distant noises of

0:11

bone chewing in this episode. not me.

0:14

And there are not me. sounds of are

0:16

also some sounds of recording against

0:18

the recording equipment. I swear

0:20

it was a dog and not

0:22

me. me. Because this episode is

0:24

the second half of the the

0:26

pair humans and companion animals communicating

0:29

via buttons programmed with human

0:31

language. In Part 1

0:33

we science author author Mary Robinet and

0:35

her cat cat Elsie and heard about

0:37

about how they learned to

0:39

do this. And expert expert discussed what

0:41

what animals might be getting from this

0:43

process of interacting with human language. So

0:45

I suggest suggest you listen to 1 one

0:47

before this, if you haven't already heard

0:49

it. heard it. Note, the illusionist is is not affiliated

0:51

in any way with any companies

0:53

that sell communication systems to use with

0:56

animals, and I have not been paid

0:58

to feature the people and animals the

1:00

do use them. that just interested in

1:02

how and why they do it. in how and

1:04

we get into it, I have

1:06

a bunch of things to tell you

1:08

about. things to tell you about. It's the 10th birthday

1:10

in January, and I'm celebrating

1:12

with a big live show at

1:14

show at the in in Vancouver, B.C. on 12th

1:17

January of January a special performance

1:19

of the latest Illusionist live show

1:21

live show souvenirs about friends and friendship

1:24

breakups Fonts the and word

1:26

and the history of the word ass.

1:28

material material for about

1:30

Vancouver. I've linked the

1:33

to tickets at the illusionist.org you

1:35

should also go also the

1:37

dates and times of a

1:39

special online event this month

1:41

of December 2024, I will be will

1:43

be reading of A whole of

1:45

A Christmas Carol by Charles

1:47

Dickens over at youtube.com slash show

1:49

and you're all you're all invited reading

1:51

be reading it You wouldn't wouldn't

1:53

just be watching me quietly

1:55

turning pages in this novel

1:57

is a real banger So

1:59

funny so short. it is the stop

2:01

hoarding your wealth and ruining lives fable

2:03

for our times whether or not you're

2:06

someone who does Christmas. We can have

2:08

a lot of spooky festive fun. I'd

2:10

love for you to join me and

2:12

the videos will also be on the

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channel for viewing not live afterwards too.

2:17

Then, four members of the illusionverse, we

2:19

will be watching the finest film adaptation

2:21

of a Christmas Carol, the Muppet Christmas

2:24

Carol, as well as other winterable relevant

2:26

literary adaptations, Carol and Die Hard. Yeah,

2:28

Die Hard is a literary adaptation. So

2:30

then. Also members of the illusionverse, if

2:33

you have questions for Mary Robin, about

2:35

what you hear in this episode and

2:37

the first part of Lexicat, she has

2:39

agreed to answer them, which is very

2:42

cool of her. She's already been in

2:44

the illusionverse discord, responding to some of

2:46

you. So why don't you join this

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of that by going to the illusionist.org/donate.

3:04

This episode contains mentions of Parkinson's disease,

3:06

dementia and death. That's human and animal

3:09

death, but there are no descriptions of

3:11

death. On with the show. Previously

3:19

on the illusionist, Mary Robinet Kowall

3:21

and her cat Elsie communicate via

3:23

human language using a system of

3:25

buttons made by a company called

3:28

Fluent Pet, no affiliation with the

3:30

show, the button use is also

3:32

recorded on camera and in a

3:34

log. Mary Robinet's dog Guppy uses

3:36

the buttons a bit to mainly

3:38

to say outside and friend, but

3:41

Elsie uses currently 124 word buttons

3:43

which are arranged on hexagonal tiles

3:45

in different colors. Each button has

3:47

a word written on it and

3:49

is also programmed with Mary Robinette's

3:51

voice saying the word. So while

3:54

she was learning while she was

3:56

acquiring all these buttons, because 120

3:58

years a lot, it's a lot

4:00

to keep track. just in layout.

4:02

How is she recognizing them? Do

4:04

you have any idea? We don't

4:06

know. This is one of the

4:08

things that's really fascinating. We talk

4:10

about a lot. Fluent pet in

4:12

particular, when they started out, the

4:14

tiles were patterned in order to

4:16

give the animals an easy way

4:18

to recognize what was what. And

4:20

then several people didn't like the

4:22

patterns, and so they painted their

4:25

tiles a solid color, and the

4:27

animals continued using them with no

4:29

hesitation. So then we thought, okay,

4:31

well, it's spatial. It's where the

4:33

button is in relation to other

4:35

buttons. But we will rearrange boards,

4:37

and some learners can't handle that.

4:39

But you can rearrange a board.

4:41

They will continue to use the

4:43

buttons. I had the buttons up

4:45

on the bed once because we

4:47

were vacuuming. and the titles were

4:49

in random sequence. And Elsie said

4:51

something like, loud device concerned, and

4:53

I'm like, reasonable, reasonable. But she

4:55

found the buttons that she wanted.

4:57

We thought it might be smell,

5:00

but I have replaced one button

5:02

with a new button and she

5:04

continues using it. So we don't

5:06

know and then the other thing

5:08

that happens which makes everyone go

5:10

look like we have no idea

5:12

is that in the dog community

5:14

you'll get a bunch of dogs

5:16

that will get together where they

5:18

each have their own boards and

5:20

the dogs will begin using each

5:22

other's boards. Hmm. Accurately? Accurately. All

5:24

these buttons are labelled so the

5:26

obvious explanation is that the dogs

5:28

and cats can read. Clearly. That's

5:30

the only possible explanation. I

5:33

actually did witness this very thing happening

5:35

shortly after we had this conversation because

5:38

that evening, two dogs, Parker and Bastian,

5:40

and their humans, Sasha and Joelle, came

5:42

to visit and Parker immediately ran over

5:44

to Elsie's button board and started using

5:46

it without hesitation. So not all dogs

5:49

will talk in front of everyone and

5:51

not all in cats as well. We'll

5:53

use each other's boards, but Parker sees

5:55

every new board as an expansion. an

5:57

opportunity to try out new buttons. And

6:00

so she walked in and pressed Frustrated

6:02

a whole bunch. And once she's pressed

6:04

it once, she clearly knows that that's

6:06

where that word is. And that's a

6:08

word she has on her board. So

6:11

she knows that word. And then she

6:13

found the outside button. So then she

6:15

was pressing frustrated outside. Now, after she

6:17

pressed frustrated outside, she walked to the

6:20

door in the room that was closed.

6:22

She didn't know it was on the

6:24

other side, but she sees a closed

6:26

door and she thinks this probably leads

6:28

to outside. She's incorrect, but the idea

6:31

that she's pressing these buttons and learning

6:33

where they are on a new board.

6:35

And also hearing words she's familiar with

6:37

and then responding to them as such,

6:39

even though it's not her board. That's

6:43

amazing. Yeah, I would have loved

6:45

to have seen that. That's animal

6:47

behavior expert Zazzi Todd. We'll be

6:49

hearing more from her in a

6:51

bit. So I've got a gentle

6:53

soundtrack of dogs chewing on chews

6:55

and you know have three dog

6:57

friends and two new humans. My

6:59

name is Joel Andries and this

7:01

is my puppy Bastion. And I'm

7:03

Sasha Krasno and this is my

7:05

dog Parker. How long have you

7:07

been communicating with human language with

7:10

the dogs in the ways that

7:12

you do? So Parker has been

7:14

using buttons to communicate for about

7:16

two and a half years since

7:18

she was six months old. And

7:20

Bashin has been learning since June

7:22

2020, so we're approaching his fourth

7:24

year. He was two when we

7:26

started. Now that he's been

7:28

learning for four years, what kinds of

7:31

things are you teaching him now? His

7:33

newest buttons, we just gave him actually

7:35

colors. We gave him yellow and blue,

7:37

which are two of the colors he

7:39

was learning to discern earlier later last

7:41

year. Last year was like talking about

7:44

places, stores, restaurants, and things like that.

7:46

Now I want to get more into

7:48

specifically describing objects for activities. What kinds

7:50

of conversations do you have with him

7:52

about restaurants? We'll just, it's usually us

7:54

communicating that we're going to go to

7:57

a restaurant with him. then sometimes he'll

7:59

opt in or out of that if

8:01

he knows that he just want to

8:03

go out. The other night we were

8:05

out in Nashville and we were having

8:07

a conversation about going out and we

8:10

asked him if he wanted to go

8:12

and he hit bed several times so

8:14

we left him home that night. It's

8:16

very relatable. Yeah, I mean Nashville is

8:18

very loud and that was quiet sound

8:20

in bed where his big themes in

8:23

Nashville. And Parker can do jokes, right?

8:25

Yeah, she's definitely got a sense of

8:27

humor. Her favorite button is poop, and

8:29

she uses it a variety of ways,

8:31

including making jokes. She has some comedic

8:33

timing. If there's kind of a pause,

8:36

she'll press it for a laugh and

8:38

kind of look at you. Classic. I

8:40

recently gave her an ug button to

8:42

try and get her to stop using

8:44

poop in that way but for example

8:47

if I'm doing something in the other

8:49

room like making some noise hanging like

8:51

a picture and she doesn't like it

8:53

she'll press poop to express her dissatisfaction

8:55

or if I keep saying no that

8:57

we can't do something that she wants

9:00

she'll sometimes press poop again to say

9:02

she's none too thrilled. Find that generally

9:04

the dogs I've known are quite good

9:06

at indicating when they're excited to go

9:08

for a walk or when they want

9:10

to go outside. So what kinds of

9:13

things have you learned that you wouldn't

9:15

have expected to know just from you

9:17

know spending time with your dog and

9:19

knowing that their personality? What does them

9:21

communicating using English words add for you?

9:23

I think it's more of the timing

9:26

of things. We were feeding Bastian on

9:28

a schedule and we found that when

9:30

we let him advocate for when he

9:32

wanted to eat he was asking for

9:34

food at different times. So we changed

9:36

his feeding schedule. Elsie also, I changed

9:39

her feeding schedule because of buttons. I

9:41

also found out that he really likes

9:43

ice cream trucks, which I probably wouldn't

9:45

have known. So the things that he

9:47

comes home and talks about are things

9:49

that I may not have put together.

9:52

So the ice cream truck came about

9:54

because we heard an ice cream truck

9:56

going on the block and he had

9:58

fridge car, and I wouldn't have known

10:00

what he was listening for at that

10:02

moment. So we ended up taking him

10:05

to get a little pop cup. Parker.

10:07

just gets more agency over kind of

10:09

what her life looks like. She's also,

10:11

she likes to know the names of

10:13

people and things. She's asked the name

10:15

of my dad before, she's asked what

10:18

yarn is before, she chooses her next

10:20

button sometimes by just asking me what

10:22

the name for things are the fact

10:24

that she just cares about those things

10:26

or things I wouldn't know otherwise. She's

10:28

particularly fond of my parents, and she

10:31

will ask my dad before he had

10:33

a dad button. when he was around

10:35

and asked about him after he left.

10:37

She sometime last year also asked to

10:39

facetime my mom. And she said mom

10:41

device and devices sort of you know

10:44

things like the phone anything electronic and

10:46

so I facetime my mom and she

10:48

kind of came and said hello. So

10:50

she definitely, I mean, the fact that

10:52

they think about people and other animals

10:55

when they're not there, whether they're kind

10:57

of permanently gone or just temporarily gone,

10:59

is really interesting and also very much,

11:01

I think, serves to debunk this idea

11:03

that they only live in the present.

11:05

Or that they're only food motivated. Also

11:08

that, right? Like, they care about things

11:10

other than food. The things she's talking

11:12

about are so much more expansive than

11:14

food. And that's the thing about, you

11:16

know, even with 120 odd words, it's

11:18

still only 120 words, right, for a

11:21

language that we use, you know, extensively

11:23

more than that on a daily basis.

11:25

I suppose they've got to get very

11:27

creative to use 120 words in so

11:29

many different ways. And they are, they're

11:31

really creative. I mean, that's also something

11:34

that's so fascinating. It's just how innovative

11:36

they are at figuring out ways to

11:38

talk about their world with the limited

11:40

words that they do have. Yeah, one

11:42

of my favorite Elsie's stories is, you

11:44

know, cats like the reflective, so my

11:47

cell phone was reflecting on the ceiling

11:49

and she jumps up onto the back

11:51

of the chair, bats at it, jumps

11:53

down and is like, want, jumps back

11:55

on the chair, bats at it, then

11:57

comes back down and says, laser bird.

12:00

I'm like, yes, I'm like, a great

12:02

thing that's For us, it was the to

12:04

call it. and us, would it was the word

12:06

fridge by taking water. out of the would reinforce

12:08

the word water by taking the water

12:10

out of the fridge and refilling water water

12:12

bowl. I And he began asking for

12:14

water treats and I was like, I

12:16

don't know what a water treat it something liquid?

12:18

something liquid? So I I go no idea. to

12:20

So I would go and try to

12:22

find things and he wasn't interested in

12:24

any of them. And eventually

12:27

after his persistence, I

12:29

realized that he was

12:31

calling the fridge that's where the

12:33

it. where the water was coming out

12:35

of. Every time he time he I went to

12:37

the fridge and took out the water. the fridge

12:39

And we have these, like, we have these, bits from

12:41

this local farm. And when we open the

12:43

package, it has to be refrigerated. And they're

12:45

his absolute favorite. be So that became the

12:47

start of our fridge button. So then he

12:49

stopped hitting water when he had a fridge

12:51

button and he could our fridge button. Yeah, that's one

12:53

of the things that always fascinates me is

12:55

that you can see that they've made a

12:57

connection. But, like, which piece of it is

12:59

important to them is but piece which piece of it is I

13:02

know why this is the

13:04

important part know why you. is

13:06

yeah. important part to you. Yeah, yeah. Animal

13:09

I think it gives us

13:11

lots of really interesting questions

13:13

to ask about to

13:15

they understand. they understand from

13:17

these words. these words. but

13:20

the same time, of course, they they

13:22

are communicating with us us language all

13:24

the time and it it be nice

13:26

if we were better at understanding

13:28

what they're trying to tell us us

13:30

that that too. Yeah, what what's a good

13:32

way to about that about that? time they've been

13:34

this time they've been wagging their tails

13:36

and oh like, oh, they're happy. they're

13:38

like, no, that's not it. not it. You're

13:40

it! it. Well, Well, sometimes we are missing

13:43

it. It's not necessarily a happy sign.

13:45

sign. So a tail wag tail be a be a

13:47

happy sign wide and really wide and loose,

13:49

and especially if they're wiggling their body

13:51

with it. it. But if it's kind of

13:53

an upright, narrow, that's not

13:55

happy at all. That's actually they don't don't like

13:57

you and they might even be thinking

13:59

of of seeing off. It could be seen as

14:01

a threat. So it's important to pay

14:04

attention and the more we pay attention,

14:06

the more we learn. It really helps

14:08

to look at other people's pets like

14:10

if I'm out and about on the

14:12

street and I see a dog, I'm

14:14

always looking at that dog to see.

14:16

Is that dog happy? What is that

14:18

dog kind of thinking as far as

14:20

I can tell? So I think we

14:22

learn a lot from watching other animals

14:24

that aren't our own as well. and

14:26

it takes practice, it does take practice

14:28

and I think it's easy for people

14:30

to recognise when the animal is happy

14:32

and it's not so easy to spot

14:34

the signs that they're stressed or unhappy

14:37

or showing signs of discontent in some

14:39

way. Yes, oh there's some common signs

14:41

of stress or discomfort that we should

14:43

be looking out for and may not

14:45

know about. So for a dog, some

14:47

of the signs of stress might be

14:49

a low posture, they might be licking

14:51

their lips, and there's not food coming,

14:53

they might be yawning, they're not tired,

14:55

they're actually stressed, but people often think

14:57

that they're tired, or they might be

14:59

looking away or trying to move their

15:01

body away, or they might lift one

15:03

poor, especially in a little dog that

15:05

kind of lift one poor, and it's

15:07

almost as if they're asking for your

15:10

help to resolve a situation for them.

15:12

Cats, you can get a lip-licking cat

15:14

too. The tail is a good one

15:16

to pay attention to in cats because

15:18

the more the tail swishes, the more

15:20

aroused the cat is. Like if you're

15:22

petting the cat and the cat starts

15:24

staring at you, that's not a good

15:26

sign. If they're staring at your hand,

15:28

they might be about to bite your

15:30

hand next to make you stop. for

15:32

example, and the skin rippling can be

15:34

a sign of arousal as well. And

15:36

the more kind of tight and enclosed

15:38

the body language, the more stressed they're

15:40

likely to be. So a relaxed cat

15:43

will be perhaps spread on their side.

15:45

You can see their tummy, the tail

15:47

is away from their body and if

15:49

they're stressed, they'll be really tucked up

15:51

tight and close with the tail enclosed

15:53

to the body and the paws tucked

15:55

into. Always feel like it's kind of

15:57

an honour when a cat shows me,

15:59

it's tummy. Yes, unfortunately many people make

16:01

the common mistake of thinking that the

16:03

cat wants their tummy to be petted

16:05

and this is not what they want.

16:07

They just want you to look. Yes.

16:09

like, I'm proud of this, check it

16:11

out. Yes. Is there a particular grammar

16:13

or word order that you use, or

16:16

is it just dependent on how the

16:18

respective animal ends up using the buttons?

16:20

For a while, we introduced the ouch

16:22

button to Bastian, and if I called

16:24

it belly ouch, he would start to

16:26

like ears back, lick his lips, even

16:28

if he had a stomachic, I think

16:30

that he started to get a visceral

16:32

reaction from just the freeze. And I

16:34

found that eventually it transferred to the

16:36

word belly as well. And one of

16:38

the animal trainers that I've worked with

16:40

said, you know, you should flip it

16:42

like they do in the romance language

16:44

is like do ouch belly so that

16:46

it's just, you know, the ouch is

16:49

in the forefront and it helps them

16:51

not generalize the word belly with pain.

16:53

And I've only been doing it maybe

16:55

for the last few months, but it

16:57

took a while to undo the triggers

16:59

that came from the word belly. I

17:01

also noticed that Elsie tends to, not

17:03

always, but what I think she is

17:05

doing is the important word and then

17:07

modifiers to try to get more specific

17:09

about it. So I would say loud

17:11

sound and she would, is much more

17:13

likely to say sound loud. unless

17:17

she's just mad at you and

17:19

then she just goes straight to

17:21

loud. How do you tell if

17:23

she's hit a button by accident?

17:25

The motion for this is an

17:27

intentional press versus not an intentional

17:29

press is very different. Most of

17:31

the time with Elsie the accidents

17:33

are backfoot. She has this this

17:35

bum leg and she doesn't always

17:37

have control of where she's putting

17:39

it down. She has done the

17:41

occasional intentional back foot press, but

17:43

it's really clear because she's standing

17:45

in place. She's not moving and

17:47

she's feeling with the back foot

17:49

and then presses. But it's usually

17:51

you can see her moving across

17:53

the board and picking a button

17:55

sometimes because she doesn't have a

17:58

back space. I've given her an

18:00

oops button which is not actually

18:02

working right now, oops, ironically. Sometimes

18:04

if she presses a button and

18:06

then presses another one that's right

18:08

next to it fairly, there'll be

18:10

like an ear flick back, like

18:12

no, that wasn't what I meant.

18:14

I guess if you want a

18:16

couple of other cat body language

18:18

signals, cats have something called the

18:20

tail-up, which is when the cat

18:22

is stuck up and usually it's

18:24

kind of like a little curl

18:26

at the end, so it's like

18:28

a question mark, and they put

18:30

their tail up like that when

18:32

they're approaching another cat who they

18:34

like or a human who they

18:36

like, so that's a nice affiliative

18:38

signal from a cat. And another

18:40

nice affiliate of signal is when

18:42

they do a slow blink, just

18:44

a really slow blink, and then

18:46

often it's followed by a little

18:49

look away. And what's really nice

18:51

about this is that scientists tested

18:53

what happens if they slow blink

18:55

at cats. And so for a

18:57

lot of people who work with

18:59

cats in shelter and rescue, you

19:01

get used to going into the

19:03

room and you see the cat

19:05

and you know that you must

19:07

stare at the cat that that

19:09

you're being friendly to them. So

19:11

it's really nice that scientists actually

19:13

went and studied this and they

19:15

slow blinked at lots of cats

19:17

and they got slow links back.

19:19

So you can exchange the slow

19:21

blink but it's harder for a

19:23

human to do the tail thing

19:25

back at them. Yeah, we can't

19:27

do that one at all. Useless!

19:29

What I'm noticing from the language

19:31

buttons is they give the animals

19:33

some tools for training their humans.

19:35

Knowing that they can hit a

19:37

button or combination of buttons to

19:40

elicit specific responses from the humans

19:42

is a power that Elsie has

19:44

harnessed to tell lies. Elsie does

19:46

lie. Yeah, I had just given

19:48

her the sleepy button. And I

19:50

was in the kitchen, I was

19:52

making lunch, and she goes to

19:54

the button board, and she says,

19:56

bedroom, sleepy, lie down. I'm like,

19:58

what a great contextual use, yes,

20:00

absolutely. go take a little nap

20:02

and walk into the bedroom and

20:04

I'm like my cat doesn't come

20:06

in and I come back and

20:08

she's eating my cheese sandwich. And

20:10

she has multiple times tried to

20:12

send me out of the room

20:14

in order to get my food.

20:16

When I'm making lunch and she

20:18

starts talking to me and it's

20:20

something like go check the litter

20:22

box or something like that food

20:24

goes into the microwave and then

20:26

I investigate it. Parker will definitely

20:28

ask me to do things that

20:31

she doesn't necessarily want to get

20:33

me to get up and engage

20:35

with her. And the way I

20:37

can usually tell, she'll ask me

20:39

to do something and then she'll

20:41

just pick up a toy and

20:43

look over her shoulder. She runs

20:45

away like, oh, while you're up,

20:47

maybe we play some chase. What

20:49

kinds of reactions do you get

20:51

from people when they learn that

20:53

you've taught your animal friends to

20:55

use the buttons? Some range

20:57

of things. Some people are just really

21:00

excited and well I would say a

21:02

lot of people are really excited by

21:04

it and find it interesting if not

21:06

unbelievable. A lot of people say oh

21:09

your dog must be like smart or

21:11

like you know something particular or special

21:13

about your dog. my dog would just

21:16

ask for food constantly, my dog would

21:18

nag me all the time, my dog,

21:20

you know, manipulates me enough as it

21:23

is, which I'm just kind of like,

21:25

well, if your dog is already doing

21:27

that, then this isn't going to make

21:30

it worse. Like it's just going to

21:32

make it more specific and also create

21:34

a two-way street, right? Like, so when

21:37

you're first teaching it, yeah, you're doing

21:39

everything. you know, every single time to

21:41

reinforce it. But then it's not like

21:44

an on-demand system, right? It's a way

21:46

to communicate. So it's, you know, I

21:48

want this now. It's like, well, right

21:50

now we can't do that, right now

21:53

I'm busy, but we can do it

21:55

later, right? Or we can do something

21:57

else instead. And so it's a conversation.

22:00

And Parker, when she was a puppy,

22:02

would always drag off the shelf, you

22:04

know, to get my attention when she

22:07

was frustrated. And now she just tantrums

22:09

on the buttons if she's frustrated, which

22:11

is much more productive because we can

22:14

at least have a conversation about it

22:16

and I can give her something else

22:18

to satisfy her. And so I think

22:21

the idea that the buttons like can

22:23

create behavior is is like a misunderstanding

22:25

of what's going on. It can, I

22:28

think, mediate behavior. It doesn't change their

22:30

personality. Exactly, exactly. I'm just thinking about

22:32

how many things I thought Bastian enjoyed

22:35

until we got the buttons. And I

22:37

was like, I'm doing this great thing.

22:39

I'm taking him camping and I was

22:41

convinced he loved camping. the first time

22:44

we took the buttons camping, he was

22:46

asking about the fridge, he was like,

22:48

where's the fridge? And I was like,

22:51

we're home. And I'm like, we also

22:53

didn't pack that. And it became very

22:55

evident that he does not like camping.

22:58

Most people are incredulous. Some people are

23:00

immediately into it. Other people think that

23:02

it's much more of a, oh your

23:05

cat presses buttons on command. I'm like,

23:07

have you met a cat? Typically obedient

23:09

animals. And I think one of the

23:12

big differences with a cat versus a

23:14

dog is that people know that dogs

23:16

can be trained to do things and

23:19

people assume that cats cannot, even though

23:21

Elsie actually has more tricks than Guppy

23:23

does. So when you hear that a

23:25

cat is doing a thing, they're like,

23:28

oh, that is something that the cat

23:30

is definitely choosing to engage in. One

23:32

of my favorite research papers talked about

23:35

how They had 12 cats engaged in

23:37

the study originally, but one of them

23:39

escaped through the ceiling. So you know

23:42

that if a cat is doing a

23:44

thing, it is their choice and it

23:46

is fully intentional. And when I start

23:49

talking about the kinds of things that

23:51

Elsie says, I think I get more

23:53

buy-in than I would if I were

23:56

talking about a dog doing the same

23:58

thing. I notice that I don't get

24:00

a... of comments that I see people

24:03

getting on the dog accounts, like, oh,

24:05

you just trained the cat to do

24:07

this. This is all fake. It's like,

24:09

obviously, if you've ever met a cat,

24:12

you know that this is. Much less

24:14

pitable. Yes. The negative comments that I

24:16

get are that it's just random and

24:19

that I am seeing patterns that aren't

24:21

there. We had someone over and they

24:23

were interested in the buttons. They were

24:26

like, oh, that's really cool. That's really

24:28

neat that you've got that. We were

24:30

talking and Elsie had not said anything,

24:33

but she just looked at them both,

24:35

went to the button board, made eye

24:37

contact with one of them in particular

24:40

and said loud. Skater. and

24:42

then just walked away. And they

24:44

were like, oh, I do actually

24:47

get told all the time that

24:49

I have a very loud voice.

24:51

And like, Lord, their voice, her

24:53

husband said, that is the moment

24:55

when I became a believer. I

24:57

don't know why indictments like that

24:59

feel worse coming from animals than

25:01

humans. Because you know that they're

25:03

not going to go, well, I

25:06

shouldn't say they're not going to

25:08

lie, to make us feel better.

25:10

No, that's correct. I

25:12

think that there's always going to

25:14

be skeptics. I'm more than happy

25:16

to engage in conversation with someone

25:18

that has healthy skepticism because there's

25:20

always room for improvement in what

25:23

we're doing. But it's when you

25:25

get like people that are just

25:27

nasty for the sake of being

25:29

nasty. My kitty hally, when she

25:31

passed the day before she passed,

25:33

she hit all done out by.

25:35

And people are on the internet

25:37

telling you that I staged it,

25:39

I staged it. I was using

25:41

my cat and all kinds of

25:43

things. And no one was even

25:45

home at the time. And I

25:47

think, you know, when people are

25:49

making these claims about them being

25:51

staged, it's it's what's so frustrating

25:53

about folks that are creating content

25:55

that is just like for fine

25:58

because they're not creating content as

26:00

if this is genuine communication. They're

26:02

using something that's made for greater

26:04

agency and actually denying that opportunity

26:06

to those for the sake of

26:08

making content that is you know

26:10

quote-unquote funny I mean most of

26:12

the time it's like misogynist and

26:14

curse words and things like that

26:16

and it's just like I personally

26:18

think a lot of those accounts

26:20

are just like cheap jokes. When

26:22

you are living with this it's

26:24

there's a lot of ways that

26:26

you're like oh this is obviously

26:28

not a real thing especially when

26:30

there's a punchline and lots of

26:33

cutting it's like this is obviously

26:35

a scripted content. I don't think

26:37

it's that funny. but then it's

26:39

also doing harm with this tool

26:41

that is really giving animals as

26:43

captive animals more agency and instead

26:45

using it as like a tool

26:47

to gain internet fame. If they

26:49

had spent the same amount of

26:51

time teaching their animal to communicate

26:53

with the buttons as to press

26:55

them for funzies, they could have

26:57

this deeper relationship with their animal.

26:59

And I feel a little bit

27:01

mad, but mostly I feel sad.

27:03

There's a lot of nuance that

27:05

I didn't know existed, and not

27:08

just talking about, like, oh, I

27:10

can't read, you know, the way

27:12

they moved their tail. I'm talking

27:14

about those things where I would

27:16

have, based on her body language,

27:18

thought that she was adjusted and

27:20

happy, and then she says something

27:22

with the buttons that is counter

27:24

to that, like, we had another

27:26

cat helix, and when he died,

27:28

she started talking about him. and

27:30

using emotion words that she hadn't

27:32

used, and I wouldn't have guessed

27:34

that she was that attached to

27:36

Helix before, or that she was

27:38

grieving as much as she was,

27:40

but there were some sounds that

27:42

she made right after he was

27:45

gone, she was alone in the

27:47

apartment. So there's no human, she's

27:49

not responding, she's not going from

27:51

a cue, and she just went

27:53

to her button board and pressed

27:55

sad. and then

27:57

went and lay down in the sun

27:59

and I was like oh never leaving

28:01

home again. Just looking at her body

28:03

language, without the buttons, I would be

28:06

like, oh, look, there's my cat and

28:08

she's lying down in the sun. What

28:10

a lovely pleasant day for her. And

28:12

with the buttons, I'm like, oh, no,

28:14

she's lonely. Yeah, she's feeling stuff. Yeah.

28:16

She asks about people who are not

28:18

here. Animals seem to grieve their companions

28:20

and the cats do miss their companions

28:22

when they're not there. And I love

28:25

those stories actually. I think animals do

28:27

have a sense of time and I

28:29

used to use the word soon with

28:31

my dog Bodger and I used to

28:33

feel like he knew what that meant.

28:35

So I might say we'll go for

28:37

a walk soon if he was looking

28:39

expectant for a walk. And I felt

28:42

like he knew what that meant. Or

28:44

if we had people coming around who

28:46

he knew, I would say their names

28:48

and say soon, and he would go

28:50

to the window as if he was

28:52

waiting for them. So I felt like

28:54

he knew what it meant, but of

28:56

course to prove it scientifically is another

28:59

matter, and quite difficult to show exactly

29:01

what his concept of soon was and

29:03

what length of time it might be.

29:05

And there was even a time when

29:07

we had to be out of the

29:09

house for longer than we'd intended to

29:11

be, so we were actually coming back

29:13

quite late, and I was a bit

29:16

worried about him being home on his

29:18

own. So when we were 10 minutes

29:20

away from home, I actually rang and

29:22

spoke to the answer phone and said,

29:24

Roger, we'll be home soon! And I

29:26

felt when we came home, like he

29:28

was different than I thought he would

29:30

have been with us being away for

29:33

that length of time. So I felt

29:35

like he understood, but I can't prove

29:37

it and it may simply be that

29:39

he heard my voice and he liked

29:41

hearing my voice and it didn't make

29:43

him feel alone. But we know that

29:45

they have a sense of time because

29:47

if you take your dog for a

29:50

walk at the same time, they will

29:52

start coming and looking for you at

29:54

that time or they will even bring

29:56

you the leash. So they do have

29:58

a sense of time. I have been

30:00

told I don't know how many times

30:02

that cats have like a, you know,

30:04

five minute memory. ridiculous like that, like,

30:07

was obviously very false, like, this person

30:09

has never spent time with a cat,

30:11

because they can hold a grudge. I

30:13

knew that they had emotions, I knew

30:15

that they had opinions, I knew that

30:17

they could feel sad, they could feel

30:19

angry, but I didn't know that they

30:21

had, like, this inner life where they

30:24

were thinking about things, like, after you

30:26

all left yesterday, Elsie came out and,

30:28

you know, was, like, delicious quiet, like,

30:30

oh, baby. Even with this lifelong love

30:32

of animals, I had absolutely bought into

30:34

the thing of, oh, once the immediate

30:36

stimulus is passed, they're fine, and hadn't

30:38

thought about the way things linger, and

30:41

they continue to think about it. Bashon's

30:43

my first dog, and a lot of

30:45

just learning about dog behavior in general

30:47

has come from the buttons, and noticing

30:49

his body language in the congruencies and

30:51

things like that. I think it's also

30:53

about trusting what they're actually telling you

30:55

too. And there have been times where

30:58

he's hit something on the board. I'm

31:00

thinking he wants something else. It was

31:02

one day in particular that I had

31:04

taken him for a walk, he went

31:06

to the bathroom, came back inside, and

31:08

I asked him if he wanted to

31:10

go to the store. And he said,

31:12

no, he wanted to go to the

31:15

bathroom again. And I took him to

31:17

the store and he pooped in the

31:19

store. We're

31:21

just going to take a quick

31:23

break to check on our bathroom

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33:43

Communicating with her animal companions

33:45

has changed how Mary Robinette

33:47

communicates with humans too, including

33:49

herself. Sometimes Elsie does not

33:51

have a word or were

33:53

away from the button board

33:56

and so what you do

33:58

is something called two-hand choice.

34:00

offer two hands and you'll

34:02

say, you know, like, do

34:04

you want to go inside

34:06

or do you want to

34:08

spend more time outside? You

34:10

know, inside, outside. And it'll

34:12

tap with a par, a

34:14

nose-boop, the one that they

34:16

want to do. Something that

34:19

I have begun doing with

34:21

myself, I've begun, when I'm

34:23

like, trying to move forward

34:25

with the project, I've begun

34:27

too hand-chasing myself. And

34:29

so one of the things that

34:32

I've learned with doing the two-hand

34:34

choice with the dogs, or when

34:36

I'm trying to guess a context

34:38

with Elsie, if I've offered a

34:40

choice and it was the wrong

34:43

choice, that I don't offer that

34:45

choice anymore, I'm like, okay, you

34:47

have two choices in front of

34:49

you, you can answer the emails,

34:52

or you can do the dishes.

34:54

two hand choice. So I've begun

34:56

using that framing for myself. Mixed

34:58

results in much, you know, much

35:01

of the same way it is

35:03

with animals sometimes, but that kind

35:05

of framing has been a thing

35:07

that has been happening with my

35:10

brain. For me, it's reducing the

35:12

executive function load, the decision-making load,

35:14

by trimming it down to two,

35:16

and also by saying that hasn't

35:19

served you before. Like that was

35:21

a bad choice. I'm always saying

35:23

to Guppy and Elsie, good choices.

35:25

And I have also found myself

35:28

saying that to myself. It's like,

35:30

oh, good choice. You did open

35:32

the email. Good choices. It's like

35:34

a flowtop in real time. Yeah.

35:37

A few months before we met,

35:39

Mary Robinette's mother Marilyn died. She

35:42

had had Parkinson's disease, which is

35:44

what my father died of two

35:46

years ago, with some pretty brutal

35:48

dementia in his latter years. And

35:50

I wish I had had this

35:52

conversation with Mary Robinette while my

35:55

dad was still alive. There are

35:57

a lot of ways that I

35:59

was not expected. with Elsie to

36:01

be helpful with my mom's decline.

36:03

My mother had Parkinson's. Parkinson's does

36:05

a lot of things and people

36:07

focus on the trimmering, but one

36:10

of the things it does is

36:12

it slows down the processing speed.

36:14

You would say something and she

36:16

wouldn't respond and then you'd fill

36:18

the silence. and it didn't give

36:20

my mom's space to express herself.

36:22

And with Elsie, one of the

36:25

things that they talk about is

36:27

that it can take five to

36:29

40 seconds for a cat to

36:31

respond. And so I would count,

36:33

and I started doing that with

36:35

mom. She would say something, or

36:37

I would ask her a question,

36:40

and I would just start to

36:42

count in my head, and that

36:44

gave her time to respond to

36:46

me. It gave time for her

36:48

to find the word, make the

36:50

connections, and just to talk, like

36:53

just to gather her energy and

36:55

talk. So that was one thing,

36:57

was just reminding myself, you know,

36:59

slow down count, just count to

37:01

40. The other one was context

37:03

and how, you know, Elsie would

37:05

say something and she's clearly trying

37:08

to communicate something to me, but

37:10

I don't know what. And

37:12

so I would have to look

37:14

at the context of what we

37:17

were talking about and try to

37:19

piece it together, sometimes super clear,

37:21

but again, changes based on context.

37:24

So my mom in the last

37:26

month, Parkinson's often comes with a,

37:28

what do you call the dementia

37:30

expansion pack, what happened with mom

37:33

wasn't that she didn't know who

37:35

people were, she just became completely

37:37

unward from time. So

37:39

sometimes she was still in the 1980s

37:41

working on an arts council grant. Other

37:43

times she had fast-forwarded it and we

37:46

were getting ready for Christmas so it

37:48

was just meeting her where she was.

37:50

Yeah, for my dad it was the

37:52

1970s and he had to get to

37:54

London for a very important art event

37:56

or to watch a rugby match and

37:58

we'd have to say it's okay. Tuesday,

38:01

the rugby is not on on Tuesdays,

38:03

which I did remember because some of

38:05

the last information to stay with my

38:07

dad was rugby related. There were two

38:09

things that I remember where I felt

38:11

like I was using the the LC

38:13

skills. One was that she She kept

38:15

saying things like, you know, why do

38:18

we move the the marble top dresser

38:20

in here to put the food on

38:22

for when the company comes? Or let's

38:24

do this thing for when the company

38:26

comes. Let's do that for when the

38:28

company comes. And the company was not

38:30

coming. I would always just treat it

38:33

like improv and I would just roll

38:35

with her. But I'm like, why does

38:37

she keep doing this? What contextually is

38:39

she trying to communicate with the tools

38:41

that she has? and I

38:43

realized that she had always liked the

38:45

house kept a certain way, excuse me,

38:47

she did correct me on this. Mom

38:50

liked the house kept the way it

38:52

should be kept. As decreed by neutral

38:54

forces, yes, with the international convention. And

38:56

I kind of looked at the house.

38:58

I'm like, yeah, no, the house is

39:00

actually a little bit of a mess

39:02

right now because we were like full-time

39:05

caregiving. And so I hired cleaners to

39:07

come in and clean and she stopped

39:09

asking to make changes for the company

39:11

that was coming. And then the other

39:13

one was she kept saying she needed

39:15

to go shopping, she needed to get

39:17

something very special over and over again

39:20

wanting to go shopping. It was really

39:22

hard for her to leave the house.

39:24

I knew that that was going to

39:26

be like a disaster trip. It would

39:28

not be fun for her, actually, if

39:30

we went to do it. I would

39:32

have been fine with the stress for

39:35

myself, but I knew what her body

39:37

was doing to her at that point.

39:40

So again, I'm like, okay, well,

39:42

what does what is she actually

39:44

saying? And it clicked when I

39:46

walked into the bedroom and my

39:48

dad who like loves her, but

39:50

you know, is an eight-year-old boy,

39:52

had just put her in one

39:54

of his fiddling t-shirts, and she

39:56

was a woman who always like

39:58

was so careful. her appearance and

40:00

I'm like, oh she's saying she

40:02

doesn't like the way she looks.

40:04

And so I bought a bunch

40:06

of adaptive clothing, things that were

40:08

met for Parkinson's patients, wheelchair patients,

40:10

that did not look like hospital

40:12

gowns. They all just looked like

40:14

dresses because they were, they were

40:17

just dresses for wheelchair users and

40:19

got a box for her of

40:21

those and she stopped asking to

40:23

go shopping. What I started doing

40:25

with mom was trying to look

40:27

for the context and the emotional

40:29

truth that she was experiencing. And

40:31

I don't know that I would

40:33

have done that if I hadn't

40:35

just spent like two years working

40:37

with this cat. Also, two-hand choice

40:39

came in useful again. One of

40:41

the other things Parkinson's does is

40:43

that it steals your voice over

40:45

time. that accelerated during her last

40:47

week really. And so when we

40:49

were getting dressed, at first it

40:51

would be like, what do you

40:53

want to wear today mom? And

40:55

the slowness of the brain, the

40:57

fact that she was unmoved from

40:59

time, all of that meant that

41:01

she would say, well, what do

41:03

you think I should wear? Which

41:05

was her way of masking. And

41:07

so I started just holding up

41:09

two dresses. You know, what do

41:11

you want to wear today, mom?

41:13

And she would pick one. And

41:15

first it was, you know, the

41:17

blue-flowered one. She would tell me.

41:19

And then as her voice started

41:21

to go, she would just point,

41:23

and then she would just look.

41:25

But the what that means is

41:27

that on the day she died,

41:29

she was wearing a dress that

41:31

she picked out. And

41:35

that's a gift that I

41:38

could not have given her

41:40

if I hadn't learned the

41:42

tools from this ridiculous talking

41:44

gas situation. But, you know,

41:47

that giving them agency, we

41:49

say all the time what

41:51

the learners presume competence and,

41:53

you know, all the time.

41:56

she was unward from time

41:58

and trying to communicate all

42:00

of the times. It's like,

42:02

well, did she really look

42:05

at the stress? You know,

42:07

it's like, yeah, she did.

42:09

If you presume competence and

42:11

you pay attention to everything

42:14

that's happening and you give

42:16

them time to respond, you

42:18

know, it was she had

42:20

grace and dignity on her

42:23

last day. And

42:25

choice. And choice. Yeah, enjoy

42:27

too. And she passed the

42:29

morning after their 58th wedding

42:31

anniversary. She hung on for

42:33

that, which is also why

42:35

it was so important for

42:38

her to be wearing a

42:40

dress that she wanted to

42:42

be wearing. It's something I

42:44

was very glad I could

42:46

do for her. It's

42:48

striking with both her and Elsie,

42:50

it's like you're going over a

42:53

bridge to where they live. Yeah,

42:55

that's exactly what it is. You

42:57

know, Elsie is coming over the

42:59

bridge to me by just agreeing

43:02

to use these buttons. And so

43:04

I have to figure out what

43:06

she wants and what she means.

43:08

But also within the context of

43:10

looking for those patterns, like if

43:13

mom had said, I want to

43:15

go shopping once, you know, okay,

43:17

but it was the pattern of

43:19

it. And with Elsie, you know,

43:22

sometimes she'll say something and she's

43:24

just experimenting with the words just

43:26

to see what they'll do. The

43:28

danger is inserting my wants and

43:30

my wishes and my thoughts in.

43:33

And it's really hard. as a

43:35

human who is pattern-seeking creature to

43:37

not... You know, there are things

43:39

that I'm like, I really want

43:42

that to have a meaning. No.

43:44

She's a cat. What is an

43:46

important thing to a cat? Probably

43:48

kibble. Maybe murder. And what's been

43:50

the best thing you think about

43:53

this whole process for you? I

43:55

get to talk to my dog.

43:57

Honestly, like that's something I probably

43:59

wanted since I was a kid

44:02

and I get to talk with

44:04

her and I get to help

44:06

her live her best life. A

44:08

slight second to that is just

44:10

the community of people who I've

44:13

met through it. It's just this

44:15

whole community of people who like

44:17

care deeply about their

44:19

animals and learning more about them

44:21

and are interested in expanding knowledge

44:23

and learning more and I think

44:25

that's just so like wonderful to

44:27

have met people who are live

44:29

all over the world and you

44:31

know come from all sorts of

44:33

backgrounds and yet all have this

44:35

really powerful thing in common. I

44:37

would agree with that. The community

44:39

is huge too because it's a

44:41

lot of troubleshooting and problem solving.

44:43

It's interesting to see which animals

44:45

use similar combinations. I think Buster

44:48

or Juno had used squeaker car

44:50

after Parker had used squeaker car

44:52

for ambulance. And there's two dogs

44:54

on opposite sides of the country

44:56

that are both using the same

44:58

combination for the same meaning. And

45:00

so almost creating like a dictionary

45:02

of sorts of what it could

45:04

potentially mean when they press a

45:06

pattern. and just having each other

45:08

cheer each other on, it refocuses

45:10

you on the way. We all

45:12

started because we wanted to learn

45:14

to communicate with our pet, not

45:16

because we wanted to become internet

45:18

famous. Because at the end of

45:20

the day, I'm still going to

45:22

keep communicating with my dog using

45:24

the buttons, whether or not be

45:26

processing it online. Give it a

45:28

try with your learner. Even if

45:30

you approach it just as an

45:32

enrichment activity, just as a game,

45:34

it's still worthwhile just to see

45:36

what will happen. And I think

45:38

that to sometimes people see on

45:40

the internet, dogs with 122 buttons

45:42

and think that I don't have

45:44

the time for that, but you

45:46

don't need to have that. You

45:48

just have four, you could just

45:50

have 12, you could just have

45:52

one. And I think that going

45:54

into it, just open-minded and not

45:56

knowing where it could go is

45:58

the first step. I think actually

46:00

that's one of the bigger changes

46:02

is that I used to just

46:04

be able to talk to Elsie

46:06

to mask the fact that I

46:08

was talking to myself. now I'm

46:10

like, oh no, you understand more

46:12

of this than I think you

46:14

do. She knows all your secrets.

46:16

She does. And worse, she can

46:18

tell people now. And then I

46:21

have this additional lens, because I'm

46:23

a science fiction writer, and I

46:25

am having communication every day with

46:27

a nonhuman intelligence. And it has

46:29

changed the way I think about

46:31

what happens if we ever make

46:33

contact with extraterrestrial life. It's changed

46:35

the way I think about what

46:37

are core important things because these

46:39

creatures are not human, but the

46:41

things that are important to them

46:43

align so closely to the things

46:45

that are important to us. You

46:47

know, love and safety, security, routine,

46:49

concern about well-being, like empathy, like

46:51

the fact that we're seeing that

46:53

coming from these... wonderful little tiny

46:55

monsters. It makes me think more

46:57

about like what it means to

46:59

be human because I have this

47:01

contrast, you know, this every day

47:03

where it's like, you aren't human

47:05

and yet we have this stuff

47:07

in common. And yes, I too

47:09

like delicious, quiet. I should take

47:11

that as a key to pack

47:13

up and leave you more delicious.

47:16

Today you heard from Mary Robinet

47:18

Cowell, Sazzy Todd, Sasha Krasnar and

47:20

Joelle Andries, and thanks to Elsie

47:23

the cat and the dog's guppy,

47:25

bastion and parker. Zazzy Todd is

47:27

an animal behaviour expert and author.

47:29

Her books include Wag, Per, and

47:31

the latest, bark, the science of

47:33

helping your anxious, fearful or reactive

47:35

dog. Find out more about her

47:37

work at companion animal psychology.com. Mary

47:39

Robinet Cowell is... Poctear, the co-host

47:41

of the podcast Writing Excuses, and

47:44

a multi-award-winning novelist. Her newest novel,

47:46

The Martian Contingency, is available to

47:48

preorder. Find Mary Robinet and her

47:50

work at Mary Robinet co-world.com. And

47:52

you can find Joelle Andrews and

47:54

her Bastian and Sasha and

47:56

her dog her

47:58

on Instagram and

48:00

YouTube. and I will

48:03

link to all

48:05

of to all of

48:07

episode's guests at the illusionist.org/Lexicat 2. Next is

48:09

the is the annual bonus episode. I love

48:11

these, I save stuff up all year

48:13

for them because the guests say

48:15

very interesting things that weren't language weren't

48:17

just didn't fit into their episode episode

48:20

then in the bonus episodes we get

48:22

all of that that and in this

48:24

year's one one many other delights will will

48:26

hear from Zazi Todd again she will

48:28

advise on how if you want

48:30

to change your dog's name name you can

48:32

can get them to recognize the new

48:34

one one so come come back next time

48:37

for that and all the other bonus bits. The

48:46

illusionist is sponsored by by quince. Luxury

48:48

gifts at affordable prices. I'm stressed by stressed

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by gifting these days I I

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just worry about bestowing an

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if they don't want to? if they

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order. So that's my gift pick. And if you

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to our beloved the sponsoring The

49:55

Illusionist being our being our one

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stop shop for creating our

49:59

websites. My square space The

50:01

and I have now been

50:03

together for 10 years now the

50:05

together 10 years and the 10th

50:07

anniversary is... what is it?

50:09

Ten? Ten? I was

50:11

hoping for something a little

50:14

more festive, a little more guess

50:16

you can't spell I guess you without

50:18

spell it would be without tin or

50:20

it would be alluzios. Alluzios. Is that anything?

50:22

The tin-free spin-off -off podcast? I run to

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Do I run to Squarespace

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suitable template, bestow the website

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50:35

the would tin-free then launch? desire and

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then I could, I could. I I

50:40

probably won't. But you should, should

50:42

with your own thing. You can't

50:44

spell thing without either. Go to Go

50:46

to squarespace.com illusionist for a for a

50:48

free trial you're when you're ready

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to launch save 10% of your first your

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first purchase of a website

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or domain using the code illusionist.

51:10

We love having new new to

51:12

add to our to add to our

51:14

How about How about? Smartlist presents, clueless.

51:17

a new, bite -sized podcast where

51:19

the host Elliot the Emmy Emmy -winning

51:21

writer, guides the listener

51:23

through different kinds of puzzles.

51:25

of puzzles. ones, ones, number ones, song names,

51:27

mysteries, brain and conundrums, and you

51:29

the listener try to solve

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them faster than than Sean Hayes

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You're familiar with the system. That

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part's not the puzzle. The puzzles are

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51:49

Clueless. part's not the puzzle. The puzzles are

51:52

in selected work of

51:54

Smartlist Presents Clueless. Your randomly

51:56

selected word from the dictionary

51:59

today is... noun in

52:01

bridge or wist, a hand a hand

52:03

with no card above

52:05

a Origin 20th century, named after Earl

52:07

of of Yabra, said to

52:09

have bet 1,000 to against its

52:12

occurrence. occurrence. Try using Yabra

52:14

in an email today. email today.

52:16

This episode was produced by

52:18

me, Zaltzmann, on the unseated,

52:20

ancestral and traditional territory of

52:23

the of the Musqueam Squamish and Sloewith nations.

52:25

provided production and editorial

52:27

assistance and also composed the

52:29

music, assistance his songs with

52:31

lyrics music. Find his songs.com. at Thanks

52:33

to Scott Newman and to

52:36

Mills from and Jenny Mills from on-air

52:38

festival, Erika Ensign, and Mary Robinette Co-Well's family. Ken

52:40

Rob Cowell, Co-Cool, and Steve

52:42

Harrison, and Elsie Todd. Our

52:44

ad partner Our ad partner is sponsor this

52:46

to sponsor this show or any

52:49

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Nest. Get in touch with them at

52:53

at Multitude. Production slash are already filling up

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52:57

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