0:01

This is another iRaw podcast . What

0:05

becomes problematic is the naturalization

0:08

and promotion

0:11

and pushing of one kind

0:13

of dog-human relationship which is where

0:16

dogs and humans are together

0:18

. Dogs are with humans in

0:20

their homes , so pet dogs , so just

0:23

that one association , one

0:25

kind of association of dogs and

0:27

humans being propagated which

0:30

is not natural

0:32

in the way that it has to be formed and it has

0:34

to be worked on throughout the lives

0:36

of a pet dog and a human . So

0:39

I think that becomes sort

0:42

of for me that is problematic , just

0:44

pushing forward of that one narrative

0:46

, whereas they are , from

0:48

historical evolution point of view , they're

0:50

different kinds of relations .

1:01

Welcome back to the Animal Turn everyone . This

1:03

is season seven where we've been talking

1:06

all about animals and multi-species

1:08

health . It's been a really interesting

1:11

season . It went in directions I wasn't quite

1:13

expecting , but I really think that if you've

1:15

listened to the whole season , from the beginning

1:17

until the end , you get a sense that multi-species

1:20

health is about so much more than

1:22

disease . When we're talking about health

1:24

relations among animals , but also between

1:26

humans and animals , you start to realize

1:29

that it's an incredibly political discussion

1:31

. You have to think not only about animals'

1:33

bodies but also the discourses that

1:36

are used to describe animals and the ways in which

1:38

policies are done and research

1:40

is done . Really , really , really interesting

1:42

topic . Now , this season

1:44

has been sponsored by the Remaking One Health Indies

1:46

Project and I was delighted to work

1:48

together with Krithika Srinivasan on

1:50

crafting and thinking about how the season

1:53

could unfold . The Remaking

1:55

One Health Indies Project is doing work with street

1:57

dogs in India and

1:59

trying to think through some of the multi-species

2:02

health dimensions of human-dog

2:04

relations there . Now you would have noticed

2:07

that the season has had a very strong

2:09

and overt dog focus . That

2:11

was by design . Working together with the Remaking

2:14

One Health Indies Project , we were thinking

2:16

through kind of dog relations , and

2:18

that comes up a lot in today's episode

2:20

as well . But before we get into the

2:22

grad review and I tell you who's joining me on the show

2:24

today , I think it's really important to note

2:27

that while we focused on dogs in

2:29

this season , the lessons that we've

2:31

learned definitely translate and

2:33

can be thought about in relation to a

2:35

whole host of multi-species

2:38

or animal relations right

2:40

? So I think now , for example , about Miriam's

2:43

concepts of species story

2:45

. How are different animals kind

2:47

of given these discursive stories

2:49

that are unproblematized ? How does it position

2:52

them differently in scientific

2:54

discourse or public or popular

2:56

discourse , how we view some animals as

2:58

worth protecting or worth sacrificing Another

3:06

key theme that emerged over the course of the season

3:08

and , of course , that we talk a little bit about today

3:11

in the Grad Review , so the kind of

3:13

discursive elements of not only

3:15

what a specific species story

3:17

is but how it's mobilized in conservation

3:19

practices and the making of policy . Let

3:22

me tell you a little bit about who's joining us on

3:25

the show today . If you've been

3:27

following along with the season , you'll already be familiar

3:29

with both Rashmi and Priya , who

3:32

have done the animal highlights of the course of the season

3:34

. They've shared a whole bunch of

3:36

their ethnographic insights and observations

3:38

from the work they've done together with dogs in

3:41

the Himalayan regions . So

3:43

Priya Shn Thapleal is a PhD

3:45

researcher based in the School of Geosciences

3:48

at the University of Edinburgh . In

3:50

his project he's thinking with and for

3:52

people and street dogs living in an

3:54

Indian Himalayan village and he's

3:56

hoping to explore the everyday ethics and

3:58

politics of sharing life and space on

4:00

a more than human planet . He's

4:02

very interested in the relationship between cultural

4:04

geography , environmental anthropology and

4:06

multi-species studies . Rashmi

4:09

Singh Rana is also a PhD

4:11

candidate , but she is at the Center for Compassionate

4:14

Conservation of the Transdisciplinary School

4:16

with the University of Technology in Sydney

4:18

. Her conservation research explores

4:21

how the dynamic socio-ecological realities

4:23

shape coexistence dynamics in

4:25

the multi-species spaces of Indian

4:27

Trans-Himalayan

4:29

. She is presently interested in tracing

4:32

the contemporary relationships between humans

4:34

and dogs and the influence it has on

4:36

creating futures of

4:38

safe multi-species cohabitation

4:41

in agro-pastoral

4:43

landscapes . So their

4:45

work was really interesting and we speak quite a bit

4:47

about the animal highlights in this

4:49

episode today and throughout

4:52

the grad review they still bring in anecdotes

4:54

from their field work . If you don't

4:56

know it already , the animal highlight is

4:58

and does exist as its own podcast

5:01

as well . Rashmi

5:04

and Priya's work will appear in

5:06

that podcast later in the year . So you've got

5:08

exclusive or first access

5:10

content to it here . But

5:12

if you haven't found the Animal Highlights , please

5:14

look for it wherever you listen to

5:16

podcasts , give it a follow and if you

5:18

like the content , please leave a review . And

5:21

if you've got time , please , please

5:23

, please , I beg you , please leave

5:25

a review for the Animal Turn . Sway

5:28

, I'm obsessed . I keep going and trying to search

5:30

reviews of the Animal Turn , hoping that there

5:32

are more reviews that exist out there , because

5:35

it really does just go a long way in

5:37

terms of giving the show legitimacy , and

5:39

my real hope , dear listeners

5:42

, is that the show will become something

5:44

of a pedagogical tool , that

5:46

it serves as supplementary material

5:48

. So anyone who's teaching about animal studies

5:50

or interested in animal studies

5:53

and is maybe doing a course with someone

5:55

who is teaching about animal studies , please

5:57

share this podcast with them . I think it makes for

5:59

fantastic supplementary material where

6:02

episodes can go in conjunction with or

6:04

supplement a journal article , for

6:06

example . All right , I'm

6:08

sorry , I'm just rambling and waffling

6:10

and you've got a long episode

6:12

coming up in front of you where myself

6:14

, priya and Rashmi talk about some of the key themes

6:17

that emerged over the course of the season . Thank

6:20

you so much once again for joining me

6:22

on the Animal Turn . I hope you've enjoyed

6:24

this season . Hello

6:30

, priya and Rashmi , welcome

6:32

to the Animal Turn podcast . It's

6:35

been so fun working with you over the

6:37

course of the season on

6:39

developing your animal highlights , and

6:41

learning about dogs in

6:43

the Himalayas and in India

6:45

and kind of just thinking about

6:48

the variety of different dog relations

6:50

there are has been really illuminating for

6:52

me . So thank you so much for doing

6:55

those highlights and now for also joining me on

6:57

the Grad Review to kind of wrap up the season

7:00

and delve into some of the opportunities

7:03

and overlaps and

7:05

tensions that have kind of emerged over the course

7:07

of the season . So thank you . Thank

7:09

you so much for your work . So , just in case

7:11

folks are joining here

7:13

for the first time and they haven't engaged with

7:15

the animal highlights and

7:17

all heard you speak there , maybe each

7:19

of you could tell us a little bit about your research

7:22

and your interests . Priya , why don't we start

7:24

with you ?

7:24

you could tell us a little bit about your research and

7:26

your interests , priya ? Why don't we start with you ? Sure , so I'm a third year PhD

7:28

student at the School of Geosciences

7:31

at the University of Edinburgh

7:33

. I am associated

7:35

with the Rowan Dease Project and

7:38

my specific PhD research

7:41

is based on an empirical study

7:43

of street dogs and

7:45

people and their entangled lives

7:48

together in this hill station

7:50

and village in the central Himalayas

7:53

of India , in this northern

7:55

state of Uttarakhand in India , and

7:57

I started out looking at , specifically

8:00

, street dogs and how they lived

8:04

alongside humans . But now my

8:06

research is also looking at the

8:08

larger multi-species collective

8:11

, if you can say , of

8:14

which they are part of . That includes , for

8:16

example , macaques

8:19

and leopards and wild

8:21

boars and jackals . So

8:23

yeah , that's pretty much what I've been

8:26

thinking about at the moment .

8:28

And you're nearing the end of your PhD . Now

8:30

, right , you're in the writing stages .

8:33

That's correct . I'm really in

8:35

the thick of all

8:37

of it , like about thinking about all

8:39

the empirical research that I did , like

8:41

I did nine months of ethnographic

8:44

work in this village and

8:47

right now , yeah , I'm in the process

8:49

of thinking about the larger

8:51

questions also , about the ethics and

8:53

politics of multi-species cohabitation

8:55

and what it means

8:57

to think

9:00

about health , like if we think

9:02

our health being entangled

9:04

with other species also

9:07

. So , yeah , exciting

9:09

times .

9:11

Really fascinating . And you , rashmi , are on the

9:13

other end of the spectrum when it comes to PhDs

9:15

. So he's nearing the end of the writing stage

9:17

and you're kind of at the . You've

9:19

done some field work , but you're relatively in

9:22

the beginning stages of your PhD , right some

9:25

?

9:25

field work , but you're relatively in the beginning stages

9:27

of your PhD , right ? Yeah

9:31

, that's correct , I just finished the first year of my PhD in December . So this year is still

9:33

my first month of the second year of my PhD , but I did a bit of field

9:35

work during the first year itself

9:37

. My work is again , like Priya

9:40

, it's in the Himalaya itself

9:42

, but in the adjacent state of Himachal

9:44

Pradesh , adjacent to Uttarakhand , where

9:47

Priya is working , and my

9:49

work is again around

9:52

different dog-human relationships

9:55

in different rural socio-ecological

9:57

contexts . So I'm looking at free-living

10:00

dogs around

10:02

farming villages , but

10:05

I'm not looking at them and in just in isolation

10:07

. Like Priya mentioned , it's , it's

10:09

a multi-species space and I'm also

10:11

looking at their interactions with

10:13

humans , their interactions with the livestock

10:16

that humans have sheep , goat , cows

10:19

and also other wild animals like ibex

10:21

or wolves , etc . Then Then

10:24

I also look at a different socio-ecological

10:26

context of shepherding

10:29

communities who have different

10:31

relations with guardian dogs

10:33

that they have along with them and they have

10:35

this partnership of building a safe

10:37

, secure environment wherever they are

10:39

, along with their livestock , with

10:42

respect to other wild animals . So I'm trying to look at

10:44

these different socio-ecological contexts

10:46

and these different dog human relationships

10:49

to see , uh

10:51

, what it means , for , you know

10:53

, just the multi-species space

10:55

, because , especially in india right

10:57

now , there's a lot of debate about the role

10:59

of , or the space of

11:01

, dogs . Uh , in these , in these areas

11:03

, where does the dog belong

11:05

? And these perspectives

11:08

are often very contradicting

11:10

, polarizing , depending on which social

11:13

human group you speak to . So

11:15

I'm trying to disentangle these

11:17

perspectives to see what it means for

11:19

the future of the dogs in these

11:21

spaces , and hopefully a future which is

11:23

of , you know , coexistence or cohabitation

11:26

so really interesting .

11:28

And you are also affiliated with the raw indies project

11:30

, right ? Yes , yeah , and

11:33

who have you both been working with at the raw indies

11:35

project ? Um , if I'm not mistaken

11:37

, you've been working closely with , uh , daniel

11:40

right , and you've

11:42

been working closely with Kritika , is that correct

11:44

?

11:46

Yeah , that's correct . So I've been working

11:48

with Kritika Srinivasan

11:50

, the PI of the project

11:53

, and also Chris Pearson leads

11:56

the history package of

11:58

the project .

11:59

Yeah , he wrote a fantastic book called

12:01

Dogopolis . I think it was called Dogopolis

12:04

. Yes , it's a really interesting kind of history of

12:06

dogs in city spaces , which

12:08

is a bit different to where you're looking at , and

12:11

it's interesting because I can hear the kind of differences

12:13

. So you guys are both part of the same research

12:16

group but , priya , I hear you speaking

12:18

about things like collectives , whereas , rashmi

12:20

, I hear you talking about things like ecologies and

12:22

, of course , daniel

12:27

is very much . We spoke a lot about ecology and compassionate conservation and it's just . It's been really

12:29

interesting working with both of you and kind of seeing

12:32

these varied interests intersecting

12:34

when it comes to thinking about dogs in India

12:37

and human-dog relations

12:39

and , of course , their health . So

12:41

before we

12:43

kind of dive straight into the main

12:46

focus of this grad review , which is looking

12:48

at the overlaps and tensions that have emerged

12:50

through the interviews , I thought it'd

12:52

be nice to maybe just spend a little bit of time

12:54

reflecting on the animal highlight . So

12:57

you both worked together on the animal

12:59

highlight this season . For folks who don't

13:01

know what the animal highlight is , it's a segment that

13:03

comes up at the end of each episode where

13:05

I work together with a grad student or an

13:07

early career researcher on

13:09

developing scripts and stories that focus

13:11

and highlight animals in particular

13:14

, and oftentimes this happens at the kind

13:16

of species level , but

13:18

it can also happen at different kind of collective

13:20

levels or even individual levels . And

13:23

this season what was really remarkable is

13:25

both Priya and Rashmi provided observations

13:28

from their fieldwork , so they

13:30

gave firsthand accounts of dogs

13:33

that they'd engaged and encountered in

13:35

doing their fieldwork , and they operated

13:37

also at slightly different levels . Priya , you tended

13:39

to give very personalized individual stories

13:42

, whereas Rashmi , you tended to think about

13:44

these different kind of groupings or collectives

13:46

, so like town dogs or guardian dogs

13:48

, which I thought was quite interesting to see

13:50

your views juxtaposed

13:52

against one another . So maybe we

13:54

could just spend a little bit of time now first talking

13:57

about the animal highlight and

13:59

how you found the

14:01

process .

14:02

I found the animal like

14:04

there . The whole process of doing

14:06

the animal highlights and writing

14:08

stories about dogs from

14:10

my field set quite a

14:13

stimulating experience

14:15

, personally as well

14:17

as intellectually speaking

14:19

, because while

14:21

doing my PhD

14:23

it's very easy to think

14:26

in more broader , theoretical , conceptual

14:29

terms about these

14:31

broader ideas about what we're looking

14:33

at . But what

14:35

I did in these annual

14:37

highlights the opportunity that I got

14:40

was to think on a more personalized

14:43

level about these dogs who

14:45

were my research participants . I was very

14:48

sure , going

14:50

into my

14:52

research while undertaking fieldwork

14:55

, that these dogs

14:57

that I was going

14:59

to work with they were going to be

15:01

my research participants , not just

15:04

research objects like that

15:06

I'm going to be creating knowledge about

15:08

, and that's why

15:11

it was important for me to put

15:13

them at the center of

15:15

the knowledge production process . But

15:18

while writing my , after coming back

15:20

from fieldwork , while writing my thesis

15:23

chapters , I wasn't sure how to bring them really

15:26

front and center , like in

15:28

the midst of talking about all the broader

15:31

conceptual debates and theories

15:33

that I was engaging with . So

15:35

this animal highlight was quite

15:37

a fruitful opportunity

15:40

for me to have

15:42

their stories being

15:44

told .

15:45

And I think you did such a good job . You often started

15:48

with a specific , you know dog

15:50

, so , like Bella , whose story you told

15:52

so beautifully in the first animal highlight

15:55

, who was pregnant and then gave birth , you

15:57

know you provided these really rich observations

16:00

of Bella and how she navigated the market

16:02

space and the birthing of her puppies . But

16:04

then that also kind of gave us a really interesting

16:07

launchpad to discussing questions of

16:09

pregnancy and motherhood with free-roaming

16:12

dogs and what this means in terms of health

16:14

. And it was really sometimes this

16:16

kind of nuanced understanding of

16:18

animals' health isn't as

16:22

obvious when we have these really large conceptual

16:24

debates . And , rashmi , you operated

16:26

at a slightly different level you kind of

16:28

spoke about . You focused quite explicitly

16:30

on guardian dogs , right .

16:33

Yeah . So

16:35

I think I completely agree with Priya's

16:37

experience in that I experienced

16:40

similarly I mean having

16:42

really profound moments of

16:44

looking at these

16:47

stories at a personal level . So

16:49

in ecology usually we try to

16:51

look at patterns and generalizations

16:54

and observations and these individual stories

16:57

are not given as much

16:59

attention and they're always outliers

17:01

. But here , because of the

17:03

opportunity I got with

17:05

animal highlights and trying to bring stories

17:08

from my field observations , I was able

17:10

to actually see newer

17:12

patterns from my observations

17:15

in terms of looking at looking

17:17

at dogs differently myself , looking

17:19

at their agency , looking at how they've

17:21

exercised their agency , their

17:23

autonomy or boundaries that they try

17:26

to , um , you know , put forward

17:28

, and then people's reciprocity

17:30

towards their , towards the

17:32

dog's agency . I think I was able to do

17:34

that when I was trying to bring

17:36

out certain stories , which I don't

17:38

know if I would have been able to do if I wasn't

17:40

, you know , focused on each story or each

17:43

dog individually , because that's not

17:45

really my , not part of my PhD

17:47

work per se .

17:49

Like I really loved your last highlight that spoke

17:52

about how a dog

17:54

was treated poorly and she said , well , you

17:56

know , screw that . And she just left

17:58

the camp and then she went

18:00

back to her other . She went back to the

18:02

house , which was a couple of days hike for

18:04

her , because she didn't approve of

18:07

her treatment . And

18:09

there's something , I think , as a method

18:12

, there's something really

18:14

important here in trying

18:16

to really think in a complex way about

18:18

a specific situation and about a specific

18:20

set of dogs , because , like you said , priya , it's quite

18:22

easy to kind of get lost in the abstract

18:25

and conceptual which I love I love abstract and conceptual

18:28

debates but you can kind of sometimes

18:30

lose sight of the animals involved . What

18:32

did you see as any sort of , let's

18:34

say , thematic overlaps

18:36

between your respective highlights ? Did

18:38

you see anything where you were like , oh yeah , we're

18:41

both kind of touching on these themes ?

18:44

What I could observe was , yeah , we're both kind of

18:46

touching on these themes . What I could observe was , yeah , I definitely

18:48

found Rashmi's observation very

18:50

interesting and I could see a lot of parallels

18:53

with what I was also observing

18:55

in my field site . I guess the

18:58

focus

19:00

on dog agencies and how they

19:02

were reacting to different uh

19:04

scenarios obviously the contexts

19:07

were quite different , but how

19:10

, how their emotional

19:13

agencies and their like personal

19:15

, uh like

19:17

preferences , their tastes and personalities

19:20

, temperaments , these were

19:22

coming forth , which I found

19:24

quite interesting and , uh , that

19:26

was something that I also , quite , on

19:29

reflecting on my highlights also

19:32

, I realized that that was

19:34

a key theme that these

19:36

like individual dogs and how they

19:38

made their individualities

19:41

uh like , yeah

19:43

, shine and speak individualities

19:48

.

19:48

Uh like , yeah , shine and speak . Yeah , I found quite interesting . Yeah , I

19:51

think I think we had . I mean , with every highlight

19:53

of priya's I could , you know , always it sort of uh like I remembered

19:55

some other story from my field work

19:57

, like there were so many parallels and so many

19:59

similarities and it

20:01

got me thinking about dogs in

20:03

in different ways from my field observations

20:05

as well . So for instance

20:08

, there was

20:10

, I think , bella's story about her being

20:13

very protective of her

20:15

puppies , naturally , and then looking at finding

20:18

different places

20:20

to give birth to her puppies

20:22

In an urban

20:24

context they're looking at concrete

20:26

spaces under

20:29

walls or something and giving birth there

20:31

because there is this looming

20:33

threat of predation by leopards in

20:36

Priya's area . So

20:38

I've seen I mean I could draw parallels

20:40

in my stories as well that dogs do

20:42

. Even with the dogs

20:44

in my landscape , I've heard stories about them

20:47

hiding their puppies in

20:49

such weird and inaccessible

20:52

locations . And then , of course , humans

20:55

, the shepherds or people who looked

20:57

after those dogs , tried to

20:59

take care of them or tried

21:01

to bring them to other

21:03

protective , protected , trying

21:06

to help them . So all of these parallels

21:08

really were very fascinating

21:10

and also encouraging for me to look

21:13

at dog stories and look at dogs'

21:15

personalities and the way that they behave

21:17

and want to not just

21:19

humans , but also other animals in

21:22

the area .

21:24

Yeah , I think that's a really good point . So , like you said

21:26

, certainly agency is a key thing . When we look

21:28

at dogs in different contexts , the

21:30

ways in which they respond to their different environmental

21:32

pressures , whether that's threats of predation

21:35

or cars or foot traffic

21:37

, there were different kind

21:39

of responses that these animals

21:41

had and certainly , like you say , different personalities

21:43

right , Different personalities coming through . I

21:46

think about Priya , when you mentioned Hadi

21:48

, who was really quite meek

21:50

and not very assertive

21:53

in acquiring food , versus

21:55

your explanations . Rashmi

21:57

of Simru and Shiru , who was very

22:00

exuberant and authoritative

22:02

and kind of took control of an entire shepherding

22:04

camp . In some ways that was Shiru

22:06

. I think With these dogs being named they became

22:09

characters kind of in my mind that did

22:11

have different personalities . And

22:13

of course then Priya , thinking about Chintu

22:15

, whose exuberant

22:17

personality while sick and recovering

22:20

from a terrible accident , resulted

22:23

in a whole bunch of volunteers then organizing and starting

22:25

to create a kind of community

22:27

of care for street

22:29

dogs . So it really is the

22:32

dog's personalities and agency certainly

22:34

impact . That's one theme . But

22:36

another theme which I think you also just touched

22:38

on here , Rashmi , was the

22:40

multi-species collectives and how important

22:42

this is for understanding their health . So often

22:45

we think about health in terms of disease , but

22:47

there's also questions of contextual

22:49

health and practices and

22:51

the different types of behaviors

22:54

that dogs can be expected to engage in , whether

22:57

that's acquiring food or

22:59

trying to get medicine and veterinary help

23:01

or chasing away

23:03

potential predators . I remember , Rashmi , you talking about dogs that

23:05

had those collars on those like spiky medicine and veterinary help or chasing away potential

23:07

predators . I

23:10

remember Rashmi talking about dogs that had those collars on those like spiky collars that face outwards

23:12

as a means of protecting them from predation

23:14

. So just those are

23:16

definitely two themes . I think that

23:18

came up throughout . But

23:21

another for me was

23:23

also kind of the social organization

23:25

and how we talk about the social organization

23:27

of dogs , and this is maybe now switching

23:30

a little bit to talking about the animal turn as

23:32

well , Because when I spoke to Andita

23:34

about behavioral ecology and

23:36

actually also Jessica Pierce towards the end , when

23:39

you ask , like what do we know about dogs and

23:41

the ways in which they socially organize , Both

23:44

of them were like very little there's . There's

23:46

actually markedly little we know about dogs

23:48

and how they organize their own families and

23:50

the ways in which they would choose to

23:52

have babies or the ways in which they

23:54

might culturally want to die , so there's

23:57

actually very little we know

23:59

about dogs , which I found totally surprising

24:01

yeah

24:04

, that that's actually true .

24:05

I mean , and in that sense it makes me

24:07

yeah , I mean

24:10

, especially in India , we've been around dogs

24:12

, I mean pretty much everywhere we have

24:14

free living dogs around us , but we often

24:16

don't know how these dogs operate

24:18

, how their social worlds

24:21

are created or negotiated

24:23

or their conflicts

24:25

are managed . And I think

24:28

that's where the whole

24:30

idea about health or

24:32

interventions

24:35

like ABC and having control

24:38

over their reproductive health or reproduction or

24:40

creating more offsprings

24:42

or more members of their own society

24:44

or species or packs sort of made me question

24:47

are we interfering

24:49

in their social world by

24:51

? You know if their ABC programs or

24:53

their , you know , neutering programs probably

24:56

also has impact on their

24:58

social world ? And that might be

25:00

. There might be shifts how they between

25:02

, how they navigate , how they recruit more members

25:05

in their packs , how they

25:07

maintain pack formation or all

25:09

of those dynamics at play . So

25:11

it really got me wondering about that as well

25:13

.

25:15

Yeah , reproduction was also definitely a key theme

25:17

throughout the season . I think this idea of

25:19

immediately I think again Jessica

25:21

, towards the end , said it's kind of standard

25:24

practice in Western countries that

25:26

dogs who end up in shelters are spayed

25:28

and this

25:30

is a very intervening process

25:33

and the idea there is that somehow if they don't

25:35

have more it's better for them . And it's tricky

25:37

, it's complicated because I mean , you guys

25:39

know more about kind of population

25:41

dynamics of dogs but there is this kind

25:43

of fear factor that somehow if dogs are

25:45

allowed to reproduce they'll completely

25:48

run amok and what are other some

25:50

key themes ? So , focusing now on the animal

25:52

turn season and

25:55

questions of multi-species health .

25:57

I would say when we're talking

25:59

about multi-species health and

26:01

how specifically like

26:03

this concept of multi-species health and how specifically like this concept

26:05

of multispecies health , how we define it and how it can

26:08

differ from previous conceptualizations

26:10

of health . There

26:13

are already a lot of concepts

26:16

, such as one health or planetary

26:18

health , eco health . So

26:21

what does multispecies

26:23

health does ? That's different from

26:25

all these other conceptualizations . I

26:27

think it's interesting to think

26:29

about , firstly , health

26:31

beyond the human , to not just look at

26:34

other species and the

26:36

environment or other

26:38

non-humans

26:49

being instrumental to just

26:51

human health , but also looking at how

26:53

humans influence other like

26:55

the health of other non-humans

26:57

and the environment and all

26:59

, how all of our health is entangled

27:01

. And that brings us to like . The second , like

27:04

key thing that I think

27:07

it's important to think about in multispecies

27:09

health is that the target of

27:12

these like health policies or health interventions

27:14

should never be individuals , but it should always

27:16

think about like this

27:19

in a more relational terms

27:21

, because we're never actually individuals

27:25

. I think that that comes to like one

27:27

of the episodes in the animal

27:29

turn , also about us

27:32

also being holobionts , like you know

27:34

, us also being a collective of these

27:36

different species . So we need to always

27:38

look at these collectives that

27:41

we are part of , and how we , how

27:43

, what ? What does health become when we start

27:45

thinking it in

27:48

these terms , beyond the individual

27:50

and beyond the human ?

27:52

That was in the conversation with Oswaldo , I think right

27:54

. But we were speaking about marginalized multi-species

27:56

collectives , and I think you're exactly right

27:58

. I mean , when , when I put this question

28:00

to Krithika and

28:03

Guillaume in the first episode , one

28:05

of the key things that I think Guillaume said was multi-species

28:08

health is , in essence , going

28:10

beyond anthropocentric understandings

28:12

of health , which we find very

28:14

difficult to do Like often

28:16

, when we even speak about , you know , what's

28:19

good for dogs . We speak about what's good for us , and

28:21

I would agree that this is a key theme

28:23

that's come up throughout the season

28:25

, but not only that , it's

28:28

also that it's a political theme , right

28:30

? The idea of going beyond anthropocentric understandings

28:32

of health is inherently political , and

28:35

it's political in the traditional sense of yes , we need

28:37

to create policies that think about other animals , but

28:39

also just challenging the central figure

28:42

of the human in health conversations is

28:44

political .

28:46

Yes , I would definitely say it is a

28:49

political act and I think

28:51

it's an important one to bring

28:53

in power and politics into

28:56

these conversations about health . Again

28:58

, going back to the

29:00

conversation with Oswaldo about

29:03

multispecies , collectors and the

29:05

idea of the marginalization

29:07

of how we

29:09

define our collectives , because

29:13

if we just center humans , then

29:16

we are again like what ? From my understanding

29:18

, what previous versions

29:21

of these entangled

29:23

understandings of health have done is

29:26

create these biopolitical boundaries

29:28

and these insides

29:30

and outsides between

29:33

, like these healthy communities

29:35

and healthy bodies versus

29:38

this outside of those risky bodies

29:41

or unhealthy bodies , and there have

29:43

been mostly uh

29:45

conversations around , like

29:47

biomedical intervention , uh

29:49

, and this prevention

29:52

of uh , these viruses

29:54

, like you know , jumping from one body

29:56

to the other but we don't really talk about

29:59

the structural or , like you know

30:01

, this power relationship that actually might

30:03

create uh , the

30:05

might create unhealthy

30:07

conditions or environments . That's

30:09

really important to talk about .

30:12

Yeah , I mean this definitely came up in another

30:14

season where I spoke to Steve Hinchcliffe about the idea

30:16

of biosecurity and

30:18

he kind of drove home how the idea

30:20

of keeping life safe is inherently

30:22

political . And in that same season

30:24

of biosecurity I had Krithika on the show

30:26

, krithika Srinivasan , and she really

30:29

drove home how important this tension between

30:31

sacrifice

30:34

and I want to

30:36

say savior and sacrifice , but it's not .

30:38

Protection and sacrifice .

30:39

Protection and sacrifice . That's it , and

30:42

this is important in thinking about marginalized multi-species

30:45

collectives , because there are some animals that we

30:47

desperately try to protect at the

30:49

expense or sacrifice of others , and it's

30:52

always . I mean , I think every grad review this

30:54

has come up is really complicated and difficult

30:56

to do . Which species are you privileging

30:58

and why , and

31:00

you can't in our policies and practices ? How

31:03

do we privilege all of them equally ? I'm

31:05

just , this is , I guess this is

31:07

the challenge , right ?

31:09

Yeah , I mean throughout , especially in the

31:11

whole conservation , animal conservation

31:14

sphere , there's always this and

31:17

, of course because in our field I think we also deal

31:19

with a lot of saviors syndrome we

31:21

like to save animals

31:23

and in saving animals , animals

31:25

, we don't mind sacrificing

31:28

animals . So I mean there's protection but

31:30

there's sacrifice , going hand by hand in

31:32

hand and it's , and then it entirely

31:34

depends on who's doing the

31:36

saving and what they think is more

31:38

important . Um , to

31:40

you know , to save and to sacrifice

31:43

. I think , again , it becomes political

31:45

, it becomes it's determined

31:47

by the person's ideology . And

31:50

I think that's where it's interesting for us to kind

31:52

of take a step back and look at the social

31:54

groups involved in that decision-making

31:56

, including non-human social groups , but

32:00

most definitely the

32:02

existing social groups , because there will be

32:04

people . For instance , just in context

32:07

of dogs , there are even

32:09

in India , there are , you know , polarizing

32:11

views . There are people who want

32:13

dog on the streets and advocate

32:15

for having having free , living dogs on the street

32:18

as their places , where they belong , whereas

32:20

there is a strong voice

32:22

that is now increasingly becoming dominant

32:24

to saying that dogs do not belong

32:27

in streets , they belong inside homes

32:29

. So

32:31

they are these different . The same issue

32:34

may have different perspectives . So I think we need

32:36

to take a step back and look at all

32:38

of these perspectives to be able to come to

32:41

an inclusive answer Okay

32:44

, what is to be protected and how one is to be able to come to an inclusive answer okay , what is to

32:46

be protected and how one is to be protected ?

32:48

um yeah , I think that's really important

32:50

. It's not this like single idea of of protection

32:52

and maybe as I forget

32:54

who suggested this , but was it mariam

32:57

who kind of said this idea that we are there

32:59

to protect them is perhaps a

33:01

little bit um , and by them

33:04

I mean animals that sometimes our

33:06

constant desire and need to intervene

33:08

can actually foster more conflict

33:11

. And that's also tricky

33:13

, I mean because you do need to have responsibility

33:15

. There is a point

33:17

at which our policies matter , which I

33:19

think is something you're pointing to here

33:21

, rashmi , is that there are different stakeholders

33:24

with different interests and policies

33:26

need to reflect that . Some of these stakeholders

33:29

are not human and

33:31

their interests need to be protected . And a couple

33:34

of times what's going on in Turkey

33:36

came up this season , because I think it's a

33:38

clear indicator of how , when policies change

33:41

dogs' lives , it

33:43

can have real , material , significant

33:45

implications for the animals involved and in this case

33:47

, the kind of mass murder of dogs in

33:50

a place where they were once

33:52

free , roaming and welcomed

33:56

participants . So I think

33:58

the discourse that you're talking about

34:00

, that's happening in India , sounds

34:02

, at least to me , like it's ringing true to what's

34:04

happening in many other countries

34:07

where it has been normal for dogs

34:09

to roam . Why do you think these changes

34:11

are happening ? What's prompting this kind of change

34:15

? Now , do you think , go

34:19

ahead .

34:23

So I think this battle

34:25

over public spaces that

34:28

I would call it uh , that

34:30

definitely stems from this idea

34:33

of uh development

34:35

of uh , these

34:37

ideas of especially what cities

34:39

or urban spaces need

34:41

to look like . There

34:44

is this like very ingrained idea

34:47

of urban spaces being

34:50

this bastions of culture

34:52

, and they are

34:54

human centric and human dominated

34:57

spaces . Because if you

34:59

think about dominant urban policies

35:01

, also the infrastructure

35:04

, the architecture that's all catered

35:06

toward human needs and human

35:08

desires , uh , there

35:10

is a there's like

35:12

very rich literature around uh

35:15

, like this urban versus

35:18

rural and urban versus

35:20

this quote-unquote

35:23

, like the unruly wild nature

35:25

that you need to protect humans

35:28

against . And this idea of humans

35:31

needs to be insulated from these

35:33

risks and vulnerabilities of living

35:35

with , like other non-human

35:37

beings . So , non-human

35:40

animals , like or other

35:42

beings , might be accommodated in

35:44

urban spaces , but it's mostly

35:47

, I would say , a

35:49

contingent accommodation and

35:51

it can and their

35:53

, their claims to space can be taken away

35:56

as soon as they become a nuisance . And

35:59

again , it's mostly stems

36:02

from these cultural stories we

36:04

have about what , how humans

36:06

should live , live and

36:08

like what is this growth trajectory

36:11

for humans ? on

36:14

our planet like that . We need to extract

36:17

ourselves from this , like you know

36:19

, animalistic condition of

36:21

living as part of

36:23

like this , like multi-species society

36:25

, and like you know , for human health

36:28

, for , again , like health concerns

36:30

and you know , prolonging human life , or

36:33

it's just like this idea of like insulating

36:36

and risk , I think is a

36:38

huge factor but again it also

36:40

brings to like aesthetics of control

36:44

and like what kind aesthetics we want , not

36:46

undue .

36:46

Policing was definitely a key kind

36:48

of theme here throughout the season that

36:51

health requires a lot of policing

36:53

. So who is thought to be health , like you said in

36:55

the beginning , this kind of inclusion , exclusion

36:57

, who's kind of included

36:59

in the imaginary of a healthy society

37:01

or a healthy societal body ? And

37:03

this brings to mind for me the

37:06

conversation with Mariam about species

37:08

story and how really important

37:11

the discourses we have about dogs are

37:13

, but also the conversation with

37:15

Melanie Rock and

37:17

Gwendolyn Blue about healthy

37:20

publics right , that

37:22

this is , it's really

37:24

needing . So we can speak about collectives , and one

37:27

of my concern with the idea of collectives

37:29

is that it is prone to sometimes romantic

37:31

and romanticization . Right , we're

37:33

multi-species collectives everyone's wonderful

37:36

love and peace and joy , which I don't inherently

37:38

disagree with . Like , we are multi-species collectives

37:40

it's a biological fact , right . But

37:42

sometimes the discourse from there

37:45

can kind of spring in ways that are quite romantic

37:47

and that are not very helpful , whereas

37:49

I think trying to think about the

37:52

politics and the materiality

37:54

of these collectives

37:57

or entanglements , whichever word you prefer , can

37:59

be pretty productive . And I

38:01

think this is where the work of Melanie Rock and Gwendolyn

38:04

Blue is quite helpful , because they they

38:06

do speak about health in very tangible ways saying

38:08

well , there's a specific health scare here

38:11

. How does this have

38:13

ramifications for variety of different beings

38:16

, right ? I don't know , how did you guys

38:18

conceive or think of healthy publics when

38:20

, when you encountered that concept ? Yeah , rashmi

38:27

, go ahead .

38:32

Yeah , I am Sorry

38:34

. I'm getting confused between

38:37

whether I'm not unmuted myself or not .

38:39

You're welcome to just leave yourself unmuted , right

38:41

? I'm just muting myself because Linus

38:44

is walking in and out , so you're welcome to leave

38:46

yourself unmuted and feel free to

38:48

interject at any point , right ? Like , just jump

38:50

in if you , if , if one of you

38:52

says something that the other things is interesting , feel free

38:54

to just have a conversation , okay , yeah

38:57

all right yeah

38:59

, um , yeah .

39:01

So about , uh , healthy publics

39:03

, I think for me not

39:06

just for healthy of the episode from the healthy

39:08

publics , but because the

39:11

themes were quite interconnected in

39:13

that way what I really took

39:15

from it was that we

39:19

need to acknowledge animals

39:22

as individuals as well . There needs

39:24

to be an individual acknowledgement and then we

39:26

cannot look at animals

39:28

just as mere collectives and reduce

39:31

them to as mere collectives and sort

39:33

of apply or give policies

39:36

to the blanket policies for the

39:38

animals . So in context of dogs

39:40

, because of this very

39:42

I won't say

39:44

inherent , but a very

39:46

publicized scare around rabies

39:49

or disease that that

39:51

dogs are carriers of , we're

39:53

just we use a blanket approach of

39:55

trying to , you know , um

39:58

, vaccinate dogs or neuter

40:00

them . So basically , a program that acts

40:02

at , that , acts on them to to

40:05

, of course , neuter them but vaccinate

40:07

them and to prevent any health risks

40:10

that are there . And I think that from these

40:12

conversations and from my experiences

40:14

, these are very urban in nature

40:17

these health

40:19

scares or these disease risks , especially from

40:21

dogs , I did not see them

40:23

in rural settings , I haven't seen them

40:25

growing up in rural settings and even in my

40:27

field experiences I

40:30

haven't . There isn't such a scare

40:32

, even when there are , you know , minor disease

40:34

outbreaks . So , for instance , in one

40:37

of the a couple of villages villages

40:41

that have become towns now in my field

40:43

site in Kelong , about

40:49

two years back in 2022 , in the winters of 2022

40:51

, there was an outbreak of what they later found out was a canine

40:53

distemper . There was an outbreak of this

40:55

disease among the free living dogs there and a

40:57

lot of dogs died . There were a lot bigger

41:00

population of dogs than there are today and

41:02

a lot of dogs died . Implementation

41:12

, or this care of , you know , having the dogs evacuated , or killing the dogs or having them , getting

41:14

them vaccinated , or conducting these abc programs so this concept

41:16

of these disease outbreak and

41:18

them being harmful

41:20

agents and something they need to be eliminated

41:22

, eradicated at all , it's not common

41:25

, or is I didn't see it being present

41:27

in rural spaces . So I see these

41:29

as a very urban idea

41:31

, very modern , urbanized ideas

41:34

that have been sort of now become

41:36

really prominent in even

41:38

Indian urban space .

41:40

Such a valuable point because I do think

41:42

geography , or geographies , did emerge throughout

41:44

the season as a key theme , not

41:46

just in terms of the rural-urban divide , so

41:48

how different dogs manage you

41:51

know , whether it's the kind of guardian

41:53

dogs who are managing very rural spaces

41:56

or rural villages and towns , versus

41:58

urban dogs , but also just the

42:00

different spaces within cities , right

42:02

, how that the home becoming

42:04

something of a political space you

42:06

know thinking about pet dogs as captive dogs

42:09

, as something political but

42:12

also the street became a

42:14

space that came up often

42:16

throughout the course of the season and

42:18

, priya , of course , with you also the marketplace

42:20

, that there's a geography to thinking

42:22

about these dog relations

42:25

. But also importantly , which I didn't

42:27

know , as you say , that these

42:29

kind of health scares are . Perhaps

42:32

this is a very urban phenomenon , urban

42:34

response to try and like control dogs

42:36

in these ways .

42:38

These health scares get

42:40

a lot of media attention

42:42

, become prominent in public debates

42:45

. Hates

42:51

in that , like there is this idea of this is what the

42:53

public wants , or like the public is scared of uh , these uh like diseases

42:56

of dogs and the public does not want dogs there

42:58

, or the public wants dogs there , the

43:00

public hates dogs , or public loves

43:03

dogs . So these publics

43:05

are represented in media

43:08

and then you have somebody speaking on behalf

43:10

of the public . But yeah , in actuality

43:13

, when we talk about public

43:15

and that comes from the idea

43:18

of like what Melanie Rock and

43:20

Gwendolyn Blue were talking about there

43:22

are these like material interactions that

43:25

happen on an everyday basis

43:27

, through which publics are formed on an everyday

43:29

basis , through which publics are formed on an everyday basis in these

43:31

shared spaces . And

43:35

then , yeah , how Claudia were talking

43:37

about , when we talk about these sharing

43:39

of spaces as collectives , it's not

43:42

always harmonious and

43:44

there is inherent risk involved in

43:47

it . And sharing space with another

43:49

human being also , we don't know what another

43:51

human being will do , like

43:53

you know , like in shared

43:56

spaces , but there is

43:58

kind of an obligation to share

44:00

as being , like you know , living

44:02

beings or sentient beings , all part of this

44:04

social space , if you want to say so

44:07

, if I think of like in my

44:09

field work in the marketplace

44:11

, almost everyone

44:13

I talked to , everyone

44:17

knew there was risk in being

44:19

with these free roaming dogs on

44:22

the street . People

44:24

did not really talk

44:26

about rabies , but when I used

44:28

to push them they used to talk

44:30

about , they

44:34

used to call it venom

44:36

. They used to say these dogs have

44:38

venom in their mouth and if they

44:40

bite us we will have to

44:42

get an injection . So

44:44

people had this idea that there is

44:46

risk . But it was interesting

44:49

to see that dogs were

44:51

not just looked at

44:53

as carriers of disease

44:55

, but they were more

44:57

than that . People

44:59

did not automatically go

45:03

on demonizing the dogs , but

45:05

they actually understood that why

45:07

would these dogs bite if we don't do

45:09

anything ? And they would differentiate between

45:11

different dogs and they would have their

45:13

own management ways . Or observing

45:16

that , oh , that dog has become mad

45:18

, they would say , and then that

45:20

dog would be driven off . But

45:23

it won't be a blanket approach , as

45:25

Rashmi mentioned , for

45:27

all the . So there

45:29

would be a case-by-case basis and an individual

45:31

understanding , contextual understanding

45:33

.

45:34

When you started speaking then you were like the public , like

45:36

dogs , or the public don't like dogs , and

45:39

I thought , well , these sentiments

45:41

are often also just so human-focused

45:43

, right ? So it's a matter of like . What would the dogs

45:45

want in this situation Isn't

45:48

even like on the register of

45:50

having the conversation . But also

45:52

, when you were speaking there about health , something

45:54

I thought that was quite valuable over the course

45:57

of the season was the disruption

46:00

of health as only being something

46:02

that is to do with sickness

46:04

. Right , so , to have like a

46:06

body that is sick

46:09

, whether it's a disease , and that's

46:11

what health is . Health is preventing a disease

46:13

. No , I think health was presented

46:15

in a much more complex way by the guests

46:18

. So there was this idea of behavioral health

46:20

, psychological health , social

46:22

health . It was a much more , as you said , contextual and complicated

46:24

and varied way of understanding dogs' health . So not just saying , oh , dogs are getting sick with

46:26

rabies , or dogs have this disease , so they're contextual and complicated and varied way of

46:28

understanding dog's health . So not just saying

46:30

, oh , dogs are getting sick with rabies , or dogs

46:32

have this disease , so they're dying , but

46:34

also are dogs able to

46:37

? How different dogs are able to

46:39

express their desires and their

46:41

wants their desire to search

46:43

for food , for example , and

46:45

how , depending on the societies different dogs

46:47

are in , they have different kind

46:49

of constraints

46:52

on their ability to be socially or

46:54

behaviorally healthy . Based on our

46:56

conversation so far and correct

46:58

me if I'm wrong , but some of the key themes

47:00

that have emerged in the season are one , and

47:03

I think this has come up in every season of the Animal Turn

47:05

is a question of scale

47:08

. Are we talking about individuals , collectives

47:10

, species , and how , once you

47:12

start to think across these different categorizations

47:15

, things get a lot more complicated . Two

47:20

, as you mentioned , priya , the idea of beyond

47:22

anthropocentric understandings of health . That

47:24

once we start to think outside

47:27

of the human or without the human

47:29

, health becomes a lot more political

47:31

, a lot more complex . Three

47:35

, that geography

47:37

and space matters , so , aka

47:40

context as well , that we need to think

47:42

about where these relationships are happening

47:44

. That if you want to really understand multi-species

47:47

health , you need to look at

47:49

where they are happening and who is involved

47:51

. As Rashmi mentioned , the stakeholders

47:53

. And then I

47:57

think what we've just started touching on now

47:59

is the significance and the importance

48:01

of discourse . How health

48:03

is spoken about and how

48:05

the animals involved are

48:07

spoken about has both

48:10

imaginative and material impacts

48:13

. What other key themes

48:15

do you think there were ? Has there been something I've missed

48:17

there ?

48:18

Oh yeah , so this was from actually

48:20

Priya's highlight on where

48:23

he was speaking about being

48:25

either in our research

48:27

with other animals , with non-humans

48:30

, our roles as passive observers

48:32

, as we are trained to , to be

48:34

passive observers in our data collection

48:36

methods , versus being a responsive

48:39

researcher . I think that was . I think

48:41

that really spoke to me , because

48:44

even I was having these you know ethical

48:47

concerns and dilemmas around how do I

48:49

work with dogs who I see injured

48:51

. For instance , when I saw a

48:53

dog that was , I knew was mauled

48:56

by a wolf , I

48:58

couldn't also there wasn't any dispensary

49:01

or for me to get medicines

49:03

from nearby but there was nothing that I could do

49:05

about it and I was also concerned if I

49:07

should do anything about it , because it's , you

49:09

know , sort of natural that in in

49:12

this multi-species space there's been

49:14

an interaction between the dogs and the wolves

49:16

and this time the dog has suffered

49:19

and it and suffered quite gravely

49:21

. And when do I intervene

49:23

and should I intervene as a researcher

49:25

? So those ethical questions as

49:27

researchers also sort of I

49:29

mean it put me thinking

49:32

about how . I need to conduct

49:34

in such spaces and I think , as researchers

49:36

studying animals , we need to be very

49:39

cognizant and reflective of that

49:41

from time to time throughout journeys

49:45

in our research .

49:47

I actually think that might have been a bit of an underdeveloped

49:50

theme throughout the season where , you know

49:52

I could have maybe probed

49:54

guests a little bit more on their methods

49:56

and how they interact when they encounter

49:58

, you know , do

50:00

they engage in activist practices , do they intervene

50:03

when they observe ? You know , I definitely spoke

50:05

with you and Priya a lot more about this because we

50:07

were talking about your field notes

50:10

. But this , I think , is perhaps I

50:12

mean , the one person who was on the show

50:14

who obviously spoke about methods

50:17

not his own methods but the

50:19

methods of someone else was Matthew Adams

50:21

talking about Pavlov and Pavlov's dogs , and

50:23

what I really appreciated in that highlight

50:26

of Priya's was the juxtaposition

50:28

of different research spaces

50:31

, right . So we often tend to

50:33

think about the ethics and

50:36

there are ethical protocols that have been designed for

50:38

how to research animals . Again , I think

50:40

they're deficient and they're just designed

50:42

to like help an industry that tests on animals

50:44

, but they exist . At least the number of

50:46

kind of guidelines

50:49

that exist for doing multi-species

50:51

ethnography out there are emerging , they're coming

50:53

up more and more , but they're definitely not

50:55

as mainstream or as legitimized

50:57

. And I think you raise a very important

50:59

point here that there are ethical considerations

51:02

and they don't always

51:04

have easy answers right , especially

51:07

if you're trying to understand some of these murky dog relationships

51:09

like death . One

51:11

of the key things that came up with Jessica was I

51:14

asked her do we know anything

51:16

about

51:20

the cultural responses of dogs or

51:23

the social responses of dogs to death ? And she was

51:25

like no , nothing . We

51:27

have very little in the way of observations

51:29

or understandings of how dogs

51:31

die when they want

51:33

to die by themselves .

51:36

I have very contextual insight Again

51:39

. Yeah , I won't say I can generalize

51:41

these , but I can talk

51:43

about just this one dog , kammo

51:47

, who died because

51:50

of Parvo in the marketplace

51:53

and I could not

51:55

do anything for her . Basically there

51:57

were no real veterinary services

52:00

that were there and

52:03

I even asked people

52:05

if they would do anything

52:08

and most people would

52:10

just try to make her more comfortable

52:12

in her

52:14

process of dying , but they

52:16

wouldn't go out of their way to

52:19

take her to the veterinary hospital

52:21

, which was like an hour away

52:23

. So we had to hire

52:26

a car go . For the villagers

52:28

it was not really something

52:31

that mattered to them that much , but

52:33

for me the process of watching

52:35

her die was quite

52:40

painful but quite interesting also

52:42

to see what she wanted and how she

52:44

wanted to die , because there

52:46

were good days and there were bad days to

52:49

die . Because , yeah , there were good days and there were bad days . There were good days

52:51

when there , when she would be more active and she would walk around

52:53

and drink and eat more , and then there were

52:55

bad days when she would not

52:58

be able to move around much and she would

53:00

be heaving and , uh

53:02

, like breathing very heavily . So it

53:05

was on those days it was more difficult

53:07

to just sit by her side .

53:09

And when she died , did

53:11

you see her die ? Did she like go off into

53:14

a specific place , or did you

53:16

just find her dead one day ? How

53:18

did that happen ?

53:20

So when I found out that she

53:23

died , she used to sleep

53:25

at night on

53:27

this balcony of

53:29

this uh like building

53:31

, like where uh there was

53:33

this uh lady and her daughter

53:35

who used to like care for

53:37

her sometimes , like she used to uh

53:40

just like go there because it was publicly

53:42

accessible stairway so

53:44

she could easily go up to their balcony

53:47

and sleep there on cold winter

53:49

nights . And yeah

53:51

, they had put down some jute

53:54

sacks for her to sleep . And

53:56

they told me that she had died

53:59

and I asked them where she was , because she wasn't

54:01

there in her usual place , that

54:03

balcony space . So

54:09

they told me that she actually went to the terrace and she died there . So she , I can just imagine like

54:11

it must have taken her a lot of strength

54:14

to make her way to the

54:16

terrace , to be by herself , and then

54:18

she passed away . So I found her

54:21

at the back in the terrace . So

54:23

, um , yeah , and the stairway

54:26

also like she had to go up . I don't know why

54:28

she went up , because

54:32

there was no food or anything

54:34

. I sometimes

54:36

saw her there with other dogs , like

54:39

just playing around , but I

54:41

did not know if she had any particular

54:44

attachment to that place .

54:48

But yeah , she went to the terrace today

54:50

.

54:54

Rashmi go ahead . Yeah , so I mean that's a very good question and , um , I

54:56

mean I've been with dogs around

54:59

me , free living dogs around the areas where I've

55:01

lived , and somehow I

55:03

don't think I've ever seen a dead

55:05

dog , unless the dog has been hit by a vehicle

55:08

, if there's been an accident , I haven't

55:10

seen a dog die naturally

55:12

so , and although I've heard stories

55:15

of dogs not of

55:18

dogs going away from their usual

55:20

places to die because

55:22

they know they're going to die they don't die in the same place

55:24

. I don't know how true that is , but

55:26

I've definitely not seen a dog

55:29

die Even old dogs die of natural

55:31

death or seeing their bodies

55:33

in the vicinity . I've just seen

55:35

dogs disappear or not

55:37

return , but I

55:39

never know the reasons why .

55:41

Death is a fascinating I mean again

55:44

with talking about Jessica the idea that

55:46

we often focus health . When

55:49

we have conversations about health , we tend

55:51

to focus on life and the like prolonging

55:53

of life and a key takeaway for me with

55:55

talking to Jessica

55:58

was also kind of how to die well

56:00

and how to respect the ways in which others

56:03

want to die , whether that's human , others

56:05

or other animals . But

56:08

also I just I find it really interesting that we

56:10

know so much , for example , about how elephants

56:12

die , but very little bit about

56:14

how dogs die or how elephants

56:16

have crafted very specific

56:19

social responses . Now , this might

56:21

have to do with the fact that elephants have

56:23

very different social setups

56:26

to that of dogs . They have a much more kind of

56:28

structured society than what dogs do

56:30

. Dogs tend towards more loose

56:34

connections , so this might

56:36

be one of the reasons why

56:38

it's been such a difficult thing to observe

56:43

. But also , as you mentioned

56:45

, there's some sort of urban dynamics going

56:47

on here , right , like it might also be that waste removal kicks in . You know there's some sort

56:49

of urban dynamics going on here , right ? It might also be that waste removal kicks in . Where

56:52

there's a dead dog , waste removal comes and

56:54

the dog whether that's waste removal by

56:56

predation leopards coming into cities seeing

56:59

sick dogs or slow dogs and predating

57:01

on them or actual municipal

57:04

waste removal where once

57:07

there's a dead animal depending

57:09

on the city you're in people are pretty quick

57:11

to remove them again for fear

57:13

of disease . Somehow a dead animal body is

57:15

a diseased body . So

57:18

, yeah , I think that kind of tension between

57:20

life and death is perhaps another

57:22

key theme . And related to this

57:24

, something that hasn't come up in

57:26

a grad review before , which I think is a

57:28

cool theme to maybe unpack with the two

57:30

of you , is how evolution

57:33

played a role in this conversation about

57:35

multispecies health . It came up several times

57:37

in interviews about the tension

57:39

between , I guess , evolution and scientific discourse

57:41

, as well as evolution and domestication

57:44

. So evolution and health

57:46

, which it wouldn't be

57:48

something I would have jumped to to

57:50

thinking about how evolution shapes health

57:52

. But

57:54

did you guys pick up on that as well ? That evolution

57:57

was a theme that emerged over the course of the season

57:59

Priya .

58:02

Yeah , if you think about , in

58:05

evolutionary terms , the

58:08

entangled histories of humans

58:10

and dogs and how we have co-evolved

58:12

with each other , I guess that

58:14

definitely shapes both

58:17

of our lives and how we understand

58:20

each

58:22

other and each other's health . Also

58:24

, if you think about what

58:26

Mariam talked about

58:29

species

58:32

stories also , like the domestication

58:34

of dogs and them being evolved

58:36

as like man's best friend

58:39

, I think like , yeah , that's like

58:41

a naturalized

58:43

process , but yeah , that's something that

58:45

takes work and that's like a socialized

58:48

, ongoing everyday process

58:50

that you do with every dog . Uh

58:53

, so , but then there's also

58:55

these

58:58

um , like larger

59:00

like understandings of uh

59:02

, like function , like in evolution

59:05

. I think like , if you think of it

59:07

in terms of behavioral ecologists

59:09

, uh , there's a lot of uh

59:12

understanding of behavior in

59:14

terms of function and not

59:16

intention , uh , because

59:18

you always supplant intention

59:21

with function , because if you talk about intention

59:23

, then yeah , that's a murky waters . You can't

59:25

really know what the dog's thinking uh

59:28

, other than , yeah , what behaviorally

59:31

, what might be the function of

59:34

a particular uh like

59:36

behavior ? Uh , so I

59:38

think it's a , it's an epistemic frame

59:40

through which you can try to understand

59:43

health and our

59:45

health needs could have developed

59:48

that way . But I think , yeah , it can

59:50

be supplemented with other measures

59:53

also . I think I think I lost

59:55

my train of thought there no

59:58

, no , I think .

59:59

I mean I think you're talking maybe

1:00:01

at again two different levels here how evolution

1:00:04

as a discourse is mobilized

1:00:06

to naturalize dogs

1:00:08

as being man's best friend , on

1:00:11

the one hand , but , on the other hand , how this could

1:00:13

have potentially grave negative

1:00:16

health consequences for dogs . Right

1:00:18

, if dogs are naturalized as being designed

1:00:22

or the natural end product

1:00:25

of their long-term relationship with humans

1:00:27

is somehow that they'll become pets , this

1:00:29

has really negative potential

1:00:31

health consequences for them , including losing

1:00:34

if they're being kept as pets

1:00:36

their desires to freely

1:00:39

roam , for example , or their desire

1:00:41

to hunt . And

1:00:44

, yeah , just how some of these

1:00:46

desires are social . I

1:00:48

don't think I want to speak in like predetermined ways

1:00:50

. There are things that different dogs and different people

1:00:53

want to do because of the societies

1:00:55

and cultures we grew up in , but

1:00:57

there are also kind of biological and physical

1:01:00

needs . As a canine , dogs have particular

1:01:02

things that they need to do to

1:01:04

be psychologically

1:01:07

healthy , right . This again , the conversation

1:01:09

with Mariam and with Jessica really just drove home

1:01:11

to me that a lot of dogs , particularly

1:01:14

pet dogs , are struggling

1:01:17

for a lot of psychological

1:01:19

reasons , where you might think of street dogs

1:01:22

as struggling for a variety

1:01:24

of , let's say , material or physical reasons access

1:01:26

to food , access to cars I

1:01:28

mean being hit by cars . So

1:01:31

yeah , I'm not

1:01:33

an evolutionary biologist myself , but there was something

1:01:35

there . It came up a good couple of times .

1:01:38

For me . What I took from it was that and

1:01:41

I'm mainly reiterating here that

1:01:43

what becomes problematic is the

1:01:46

naturalization and promotion

1:01:49

and pushing of one kind

1:01:51

of dog-human relationship which is where

1:01:54

dogs and humans are together

1:01:56

. Dogs are with humans in

1:01:59

their homes , so pet dogs , so just

1:02:01

that one association , one

1:02:03

kind of association of dogs and

1:02:05

humans being propagated , which

1:02:08

is not natural in

1:02:10

the way that it has to be formed and has

1:02:12

to be worked on throughout the lives

1:02:14

of a pet dog and a human . So

1:02:17

I think that becomes sort

1:02:20

of for me that is problematic , just

1:02:22

pushing forward of that one narrative

1:02:24

, whereas they are , at

1:02:26

least as from historical

1:02:29

evolution point of view , there are different kinds of relations

1:02:31

, and I think you do talk about this in

1:02:34

the episode with Hiral , where you say their associations

1:02:37

like they were sled dogs or they were

1:02:39

their guard dogs , or they are hunting

1:02:42

dogs , and

1:02:45

then what these different associations mean

1:02:47

for dogs' health , not just from

1:02:49

the point of view of disease but also from the point

1:02:51

of view of their emotional and

1:02:54

social needs . You

1:02:57

know , comparing between pet dogs and dogs

1:02:59

that are free living or free roaming , or guardian

1:03:01

dogs who get to roam around , or other

1:03:03

hunter dogs who get to roam around

1:03:05

and the implications

1:03:08

these relations will have on their social

1:03:10

, emotional , mental health as well

1:03:13

. So I think , yeah

1:03:15

, it becomes problematic when one kind of relationship

1:03:17

is propagated

1:03:19

forward .

1:03:21

I hear you like there's one way to be dog , and

1:03:23

it's become normative almost , that the way

1:03:25

to be dog is to be in a home . Dogs

1:03:28

should be in people's homes , uh

1:03:30

, and it can be quite subversive one when

1:03:32

you point out that most of the world's dogs are

1:03:34

not in people's homes , um , but

1:03:36

also that , uh , it might not

1:03:38

be in their best interests . For some of them

1:03:40

it might be , uh , but for many others it might

1:03:43

not be yeah , just to add to

1:03:45

what both of you were saying

1:03:47

.

1:03:47

I just had an anecdote to share

1:03:49

. Uh , so I think there

1:03:51

was a harvard

1:03:54

study that came out about what do dogs

1:03:56

dream about , and it said

1:03:58

that they dream about their owners . And

1:04:01

I I saw that study after

1:04:04

, like coming back from field work and

1:04:06

during field work , one

1:04:08

of the shopkeepers who

1:04:10

used to take care of some

1:04:12

of the dogs in the marketplace one day he said

1:04:15

he told me that

1:04:17

do you know ? These dogs dream also

1:04:20

, and I asked him what do these

1:04:22

dogs dream of ? And he said just

1:04:25

of what would they dream of ? They dream

1:04:27

of chicken legs and play

1:04:29

fighting with other dogs . That's what they dream

1:04:31

of .

1:04:32

They dream about what they do in their lives .

1:04:34

Yeah , so it was quite interesting

1:04:36

that these three dogs like in that their

1:04:38

dreams were not revolving around humans

1:04:40

, but they were revolving

1:04:43

around , like their playmates and

1:04:45

their food . And then there

1:04:47

was also interesting , like what you were

1:04:49

talking about , the psychological

1:04:51

health of pet dogs . There was this dog

1:04:53

, moti , who used to run

1:04:56

away every day from his home

1:04:58

to the market and

1:05:00

come and play with the dogs there . And

1:05:02

I asked the owner , like why do you think

1:05:05

the moti runs every day ? So

1:05:07

he said what to do ? Like he gets bored

1:05:09

every day at

1:05:11

home , there's no one to play with him and

1:05:14

he has friends here in

1:05:16

the market , so he comes every day but

1:05:18

he comes back . Also he knows where to sleep . But

1:05:21

, yeah , what to do ? Like we'll also do the same

1:05:23

, like if we're in the same place . So the dogs

1:05:25

, yeah , they might have

1:05:27

like more needs

1:05:29

than we might think , just being inside

1:05:32

a home and just being fed , like

1:05:35

you know , us giving them all the attention .

1:05:38

And there might be more complicated ways for dogs

1:05:40

to exist in our societies than simply being

1:05:42

in our homes or in the streets , right , so there might be

1:05:44

. Again , depending on the personality of the dog and

1:05:46

their own experiences . There might be some

1:05:48

dogs that just want to create

1:05:51

dog packs and live their lives

1:05:53

and create their own , but there might be other dogs

1:05:55

who want to create loose relationships

1:05:57

with families . There's more than enough evidence

1:05:59

that that's the case . They'll come back to a particular

1:06:01

home or store again and

1:06:04

they'll maintain those relationships , maybe

1:06:06

sometimes coming inside , but having the autonomy

1:06:08

and freedom to leave when they want to leave

1:06:11

is very

1:06:13

different to a pet relationship where

1:06:15

I think they're asked to stay inside

1:06:18

and live

1:06:20

according to our rules pee when we

1:06:22

say they should pee , poo when we say they should

1:06:24

poo . And let's not say that there are not

1:06:26

positives in this relationship as well . Right that

1:06:28

there aren't some people that maybe take their

1:06:31

pet dogs to explore and expand

1:06:33

and live , you know , go on multi-day

1:06:36

hikes with them and expose their

1:06:38

dogs to a variety of different experiences

1:06:41

. So I think there is , as Rashmi was

1:06:43

saying , there are , many ways to be dog , but

1:06:45

we do have to kind of look at some of these relationships

1:06:47

structurally as well , right , but we do have

1:06:49

to kind of look at some of these relationships structurally

1:06:51

as well , right , like

1:07:00

how are our policies , our practices , our infrastructure catering to or hampering ways

1:07:02

in which dogs can be well or live a good life ? Right , and

1:07:10

I think there are different pressures for street dogs to that of pet dogs , but in some ways

1:07:12

they're also they have , similar demands on us that I think are just not being reflected in our

1:07:14

conversations about health . Before we switch to your quotes

1:07:16

, we've got a little bit of time now

1:07:18

to maybe just touch

1:07:20

on gaps or conflicts

1:07:24

that you think emerged across the different

1:07:26

episodes . So do you think there were any areas

1:07:30

where you know maybe these ideas were conflicting

1:07:33

or contradictory , or do you think there

1:07:35

were any gaps ? You know

1:07:37

things that should have been in the season ? So

1:07:39

, for example , rashmi , you mentioned the methods

1:07:42

earlier and I think that I

1:07:44

certainly you guys with your animal highlights

1:07:46

brought a lot of methodological

1:07:49

questions forward , but I think I could have maybe

1:07:51

probed a little bit more with the

1:07:53

interviewees how they understand

1:07:55

dogs and their methods

1:07:57

, although , that said , andita did give me a lot

1:07:59

of really great insights into how she does a

1:08:02

multi-species ethnography

1:08:04

and behavioral ecology . So

1:08:06

yeah , I put it to you . Any big

1:08:08

tensions or gaps you

1:08:10

think the season missed no .

1:08:14

It would be maybe

1:08:16

interesting to see more

1:08:19

contradictory views as

1:08:21

well , I mean especially from

1:08:23

the Indian discourses there's

1:08:29

a lot of , even on topics

1:08:31

around animal conservation . Somehow

1:08:34

dogs are not part of the

1:08:37

animal conservation

1:08:40

. Yeah , so I

1:08:42

mean dogs are in fact pitted against the

1:08:45

objectives of animal conservation , saying that

1:08:47

dogs are harming animals by

1:08:49

animals they mean , you know , wild animals or animals

1:08:52

that are not tolerant of humans

1:08:55

. So I

1:08:57

think having so again

1:08:59

. Then there are different discourses of

1:09:01

dogs not being

1:09:03

inclusive and they're also very . These discourses

1:09:05

are coming from Indian people , maybe

1:09:07

influenced by Western ideas , but Indian

1:09:09

academics or Indian conservation

1:09:11

practitioners , et cetera . So having them

1:09:14

on board I don't know if it would

1:09:16

have it would have given a very different , contradicting

1:09:19

, head-butting ideas

1:09:21

and opinions .

1:09:22

Having different ideas is always

1:09:25

interesting , even if you don't agree with them . I think

1:09:27

it's good to have those conversations , but even

1:09:30

it makes me think about what

1:09:32

Daniel was saying with regards to kangaroos

1:09:34

. Right , I think kangaroos are an interesting parallel

1:09:36

with thinking about dogs in India

1:09:39

, because while kangaroos might traditionally

1:09:41

be thought of as wild , I

1:09:43

think in the Australian context they've also

1:09:45

received this kind of pest status

1:09:47

, and I was quite surprised to hear

1:09:49

Dan say that they're often excluded from

1:09:51

conservation practices despite being

1:09:54

a protected species . So that just

1:09:56

goes to show how these local dynamics

1:09:58

or understandings can really . Coming

1:10:01

back to what we spoke about at the beginning of this episode

1:10:03

, that , like protection , sacrifice dimension

1:10:07

, how political and how social , it is right that

1:10:10

kangaroos are not included

1:10:12

in conservation practices , or they are , but

1:10:14

very begrudgingly and it sounds to

1:10:16

me very similar to dogs

1:10:19

here . One because I think dogs aren't considered or

1:10:21

thought of as being wild , which is quite

1:10:24

remarkable . And two , because

1:10:26

they perhaps sometimes straddle that

1:10:29

pest status which

1:10:31

conservationists generally

1:10:33

don't want to conserve

1:10:35

or deal with right generally

1:10:40

don't want to conserve or deal with

1:10:42

, right ?

1:10:43

yeah , I think , uh , the the breadth of topics that were discussed in the season

1:10:45

like covered a lot of really

1:10:47

crucial aspects around multi-species health

1:10:49

and , uh , I think

1:10:51

, yeah , the the dynamics between

1:10:53

conflict as well as coexistence

1:10:56

that is inherent in multi-species

1:10:58

cohabitation and collectives . That's

1:11:01

something that's a key takeaway that

1:11:03

comes up , like in

1:11:05

all of the episodes that , yeah

1:11:07

, you can't romanticize the idea

1:11:09

of co-living with

1:11:12

other beings , like even living with other

1:11:14

humans . Free living and free will to

1:11:16

other humans is difficult , let

1:11:19

alone like other species , like other

1:11:21

beings whose internal dynamics we

1:11:23

don't always know , or

1:11:36

decolonial thought about health and what it means to

1:11:39

live with other beings , because I think that's

1:11:41

a key thing to think about

1:11:43

if we're thinking about health in these

1:11:45

terms , when we're trying to build these

1:11:48

collective ideas of

1:11:50

health , not just like human exceptionalist

1:11:52

ideas or just limiting or

1:11:55

just contesting the boundaries or where

1:11:57

our moral circle , to

1:12:00

what extent we can extend it to

1:12:03

whoever , wherever , like sentience

1:12:05

, where do you place borders ? That's

1:12:07

an interesting question in itself , but

1:12:10

I think the perspective of

1:12:12

some indigenous or

1:12:15

more traditional ecological

1:12:17

knowledges and ideas . That

1:12:19

would , I think , enrich discussion

1:12:22

a lot .

1:12:24

I mean both of you are saying , I think , really

1:12:27

fascinating thing . I mean , more voices always adds

1:12:29

to the complexity of the conversation

1:12:32

, whether those are voices that are dissenting

1:12:35

or just different right

1:12:37

so that provide a different viewpoint on health

1:12:39

. I know that Krithika did . I

1:12:41

asked in that first episode kind of to define

1:12:43

decolonial and that decolonial can

1:12:45

be a lot more expansive and broad

1:12:47

, you know , and that maybe

1:12:49

possibly requires

1:12:52

its own kind of episode or season to really

1:12:54

just unpack what do we mean when we say this , because sometimes

1:12:56

words like that get bantied about without

1:12:58

really , I think , grappling what's the difference between

1:13:00

colonial or decolonial or post-colonial

1:13:02

. These are also extremely political

1:13:05

terms . But I do think Oswaldo

1:13:07

also provided some insights into

1:13:09

indigenous thoughts and practices here , right

1:13:11

, the work that he does with

1:13:13

the network in Brazil with regards

1:13:15

to thinking with indigenous , with

1:13:20

the network in Brazil with regards to thinking with indigenous voices and ideas , resisting

1:13:22

, you know , capitalist tendencies of objectifying animals

1:13:24

as commodities and as products . So

1:13:27

I think that did , there was

1:13:29

glimmers of it in the season . But

1:13:31

I hear you , there's definitely space

1:13:33

to maybe think and this has been a critique

1:13:35

that's come up , I think , several times in the grad

1:13:37

reviews is that there is more space

1:13:40

for varied views , perhaps

1:13:42

outside of mainstream animal

1:13:45

studies . So I hear you on that

1:13:47

. And , just as

1:13:49

an aside , it's

1:13:51

interesting how many Cs have come up . So

1:13:53

again , I just listened , re-listened

1:13:55

to Jessica's episode this morning , which is why I think it's

1:13:57

really pronounced in my mind , but right at the end of the episode she said I just listened , re-listened to Jessica's episode this morning , which is why I think it's really pronounced in my mind , but

1:13:59

right at the end of the episode she said you

1:14:01

know , she thinks that for living a

1:14:04

better life with dogs , that she

1:14:06

thinks about care , curiosity and collaboration

1:14:09

. Right , we should foster care , we should foster

1:14:11

curiosity and collaboration . But then , of

1:14:13

course , I thought well , dan speaks about compassion

1:14:15

. There's a C . We've spoken about collectives

1:14:18

from Oswaldo and throughout

1:14:20

the course of our conversation as well , we've spoken about

1:14:22

conflict and coexistence , and I think that

1:14:24

I was just like whoa , there are all of these Cs

1:14:26

. Yeah , exactly so

1:14:34

it's been a really fascinating season , obviously incomplete

1:14:36

, even coupled with the biosecurity season . There's a lot more to be

1:14:38

said about health and how we understand health , particularly

1:14:41

from animals vantage points . Right , that

1:14:44

seems really difficult to

1:14:46

do . Okay , let's

1:14:49

switch to the quotes .

1:14:51

My quote is from

1:14:53

this American

1:14:55

missionary named Robert

1:14:57

Ikwal , who

1:15:00

was American from origin but he was

1:15:03

born in China and

1:15:06

he was a missionary . He was a military

1:15:08

officer and also an anthropologist who traversed

1:15:11

across Tibet in 1921

1:15:15

. So that was over 100 years

1:15:17

ago and he documented

1:15:19

and published a lot on the Tibetan

1:15:22

nomadic life from

1:15:25

the time before , you know , chinese ingression

1:15:27

into Tibet , which was in 1949

1:15:30

or so . So I find

1:15:32

his work interesting is that he has

1:15:34

this one essay , which he is dedicated

1:15:37

to give the account

1:15:39

of the dogs that he had encountered during

1:15:41

his travel in Tibet , and particularly

1:15:44

the dogs that were with the Tibetan

1:15:46

nomads and the role

1:15:48

of the dogs in the Tibetan nomadic society

1:15:50

. So it goes like the

1:15:53

dogs play yet another role in relation

1:15:55

to the children of the nomads To

1:15:57

a greater degree than any other animals

1:15:59

lambs , calves and colts . The

1:16:02

dogs become the playmates of the children , babies

1:16:05

just learning to crawl out of their fur

1:16:08

and felt wrappings , tumble among puppies

1:16:10

and their attendant mothers and

1:16:13

find their earliest playmates among the dogs

1:16:15

. I have seen children up

1:16:17

to 6 and 7 years old who romped

1:16:19

with the dogs around the tents on their

1:16:22

hands and feet with as much ease

1:16:24

as they walked or ran , erect and

1:16:26

seemed indeed to communicate with their

1:16:28

canine playmates . From that

1:16:30

association , the child goes on

1:16:32

caring for and mastering

1:16:34

beasts larger and stronger than

1:16:36

himself . This quote ends

1:16:38

here and then he quotes in

1:16:40

a few paragraphs earlier . He

1:16:43

says that the dogs help

1:16:45

shape the behavior patterns of the

1:16:47

children of the tents and thus influence

1:16:49

character formation . End quote

1:16:51

. So I really like that

1:16:53

this ethnographer

1:16:55

, this anthropologist from 100 years

1:16:58

ago was able to , you know , center

1:17:00

dogs and throughout this essay

1:17:02

on dogs he centered the

1:17:04

dogs and showed how , in different

1:17:06

ways , the different roles that dogs perform

1:17:08

and how and because of those roles , how they've

1:17:11

in turn shaped the

1:17:13

society of these nomads , the society

1:17:15

of these nomads , their social privacy

1:17:17

, building social privacy around tents , because

1:17:19

dogs are around them and these dogs tend

1:17:22

to be very aggressive and

1:17:24

basically influencing

1:17:26

their social life , influencing the social

1:17:28

life of humans . So he centered dogs

1:17:30

in those narratives . So that's something

1:17:32

that was really impressive for

1:17:34

me .

1:17:35

And do you find that , as someone

1:17:38

who has observed nomads moving with

1:17:40

dogs , do you find that several of his observations

1:17:42

still hold true today ?

1:17:49

Somewhat . So I've worked a little with the nomadic

1:17:51

societies that he's speaking with . So he was looking at Tibetan nomadic societies and

1:17:53

they're similar nomads in India , in Ladakh area

1:17:55

especially , who with families they

1:17:58

move around the whole pasture

1:18:00

lands and they basically they carry the entire

1:18:02

homes from one area to another camp in

1:18:04

one places . So I've not spent too much

1:18:06

time with them so I don't know a lot

1:18:09

about them . I've looked at the people

1:18:11

I work with are shepherds who individually

1:18:13

go and take their livestock but their families might

1:18:15

still be , you know , in . But

1:18:17

yeah , there's a lot of , um , still

1:18:21

a lot of attention in the dogs that , uh

1:18:23

, they have . Like every tent

1:18:26

will have a couple of dogs

1:18:28

with them , you know , guarding the tent and just

1:18:30

being around the tent and there'll be relations between

1:18:32

the human and the dog . So quite

1:18:35

a bit of it is still retained from my

1:18:37

limited observations of these nomadic

1:18:39

societies .

1:18:40

I cycled through portions of Mongolia

1:18:43

and one of my , mongolia , and Kyrgyzstan

1:18:46

and Tajikistan and one of my key memories

1:18:49

was , of course , interactions with dogs

1:18:51

. You know , like dogs would seemingly come from nowhere

1:18:54

and be interested in us and then hang around

1:18:56

for a day or two and then they would leave . Um

1:18:59

, and yeah , it was also

1:19:01

just kind of interesting to see how they did have . There

1:19:03

would be a nomadic camp in the middle of , you

1:19:06

know , the middle of what seems like nowhere

1:19:08

, right , like you can't see any buildings for miles

1:19:10

, but then there's a , there's a yurt and there's some dogs

1:19:12

hanging out . Uh , obviously also with

1:19:14

these pastoralist communities moving with them

1:19:16

. So it's an interesting kind of set

1:19:19

of relationships that are going on there . It's

1:19:21

not an easy life but , as you've discussed

1:19:24

in your highlights , there is surely

1:19:27

something satisfying for these dogs and being able

1:19:29

to move and engage in vast

1:19:33

roaming expanses and play with

1:19:35

both humans and other animals and hunting

1:19:37

.

1:19:39

Yeah , thank you , thank you so much for that quote very , very

1:19:41

interesting quote that Rashmi picked out

1:19:43

and in that quote there was

1:19:45

also talk about like relationship of children

1:19:48

and these dogs . Yeah , and

1:19:50

I think yeah , that's also a very

1:19:53

important point , not just

1:19:55

in those nomadic pastoralist societies

1:19:58

but in general . What

1:20:00

I also thought that this process

1:20:03

of co-living or living together

1:20:05

, is like a socialization or habituation

1:20:08

process that goes both

1:20:10

ways , both for humans and

1:20:12

dogs . So from my

1:20:15

understanding and what I was told

1:20:17

during my fieldwork was that both

1:20:20

dogs get habituated

1:20:22

and socialized to live with humans , but humans

1:20:24

also have to get social , like these young toddlers

1:20:27

, to behave around dogs to

1:20:41

respect them , to not

1:20:43

be too rough with them or just

1:20:46

to let the dogs like also

1:20:48

, uh , decide what kind of touch

1:20:50

they agree with or not

1:20:53

and how to like understand

1:20:55

their . So I think to

1:20:57

start it young

1:20:59

is a key thing .

1:21:01

You see it again , folks

1:21:03

from different cultures , different countries

1:21:06

, different societies have different exposures

1:21:08

to dogs and sometimes in some groups

1:21:11

, dogs are villains and

1:21:14

dirty and you shouldn't interact with them or

1:21:16

they are dangerous . But sometimes

1:21:18

and I think people do have some folks

1:21:20

do have legitimate fears . Right , they see a dog

1:21:22

and they're afraid . And

1:21:24

the tricky thing is is when you act in an

1:21:26

afraid way like that , dogs tend to respond

1:21:29

not always , but oftentimes and

1:21:31

this is a kind of socialization practice

1:21:33

of learning to be with dogs and dogs learning to

1:21:35

be with varied responses to

1:21:37

their presence as well . But yeah

1:21:39

, I think we often expect

1:21:41

dogs to adapt and change so often

1:21:43

to what human society expects of them , without

1:21:46

us necessarily making those same provisions

1:21:49

and expectations , despite constantly breeding

1:21:51

them and constantly bringing them into our societies

1:21:53

in a variety of forms , whether that's an urban

1:21:55

environment or a pastoralist

1:21:57

camp . There is something

1:22:00

to be said for figuring out what

1:22:02

dogs need from that interaction , which is

1:22:04

different and it's not always as unequal

1:22:07

as I frame it here , but I do think most

1:22:09

of the time it is . Priya

1:22:12

, do you have your quote ready ?

1:22:15

Yep , I do have a quote . I

1:22:18

didn't go too far off in

1:22:20

my literature . I sticked

1:22:22

to some of the core , like you

1:22:24

know , conceptual literatures that I find very

1:22:27

interesting to think with and

1:22:29

it's funnily it's a paper

1:22:31

that came out last year , written by my

1:22:33

supervisor , kritika shenivas .

1:22:36

Perfect , we've come full circle .

1:22:40

It's called Conservation Beyond

1:22:42

Biopolitics Vulnerability

1:22:44

and Abundance in Chennai's Nature

1:22:47

Cultures , and I can't recommend

1:22:49

it enough . I would say it

1:22:51

has some very interesting ideas

1:22:54

to think with , you

1:23:00

can debate with it and you can contest them or you

1:23:02

can agree with them , but yeah , really cool paper , if I say so myself

1:23:04

. Uh , hopefully kritika

1:23:06

is not listening to this of course she's

1:23:09

.

1:23:09

why would , why would this be a bad thing for her to listen

1:23:11

to ? You're like praising her , like

1:23:13

hopefully she's not listening , I think

1:23:15

it's delightful

1:23:17

.

1:23:17

She still doesn't know that I'm a

1:23:20

fanboy , but

1:23:25

yeah , so she

1:23:27

states in the paper . I

1:23:30

suggest that equitable

1:23:32

, more-than-human futures require

1:23:34

a reorientation towards the

1:23:36

present as different

1:23:38

from the conservationist emphasis

1:23:40

on the past and future , and

1:23:43

the recognition of variations

1:23:45

in non-human flourishing and vulnerability

1:23:48

as matters of care , attention

1:23:51

and opportunity , rather than

1:23:53

control . This means

1:23:55

reaching beyond dominant

1:23:57

biopolitical logics of protection

1:24:00

, sacrifice and valuations

1:24:02

of unworthy or worthy life . It

1:24:05

entails respecting the agencies

1:24:08

and resilience of already

1:24:10

existing abundant natures , while

1:24:14

refraining from the displacement

1:24:16

of and reallowing space

1:24:19

often material for the autonomy

1:24:21

of diminishing natures .

1:24:24

Yeah , her writing is beautiful

1:24:27

and I think it really is so important

1:24:29

. It was something that didn't come up with Dan was how conservation

1:24:32

I mean he spoke about protectionism

1:24:35

and baselines , but a lot of that is a historical

1:24:37

. It's kind of holding in tension what

1:24:39

species we used to have and

1:24:41

what numbers with what we hope in the future

1:24:44

. But I think what your quote drives home here

1:24:46

is just actually taking stock and

1:24:48

being cognizant of who exists

1:24:50

now and how practices today

1:24:53

impact them in different ways . I

1:24:55

too am a fan boy of Krithika's , so I'm

1:24:57

very , very happy that you picked

1:25:00

that quote .

1:25:02

Yeah , no , I think that it really really

1:25:04

beautifully encapsulates how nature

1:25:07

plays out , at least in urban

1:25:09

spaces . And oftentimes

1:25:11

, growing up and even till very

1:25:13

recently , we , our ideas

1:25:16

of nature , are very , very , um

1:25:18

, um , not

1:25:20

attached uh with . Uh

1:25:22

, yeah , detached

1:25:26

, yeah , yeah , detached from

1:25:28

human spaces . And you look at nature

1:25:31

, that's something away from humans and in

1:25:33

pristine forests or pastures or something

1:25:35

. But I think she's brought upon crucial

1:25:38

ideas around looking at nature in

1:25:40

our everyday being , especially in urban

1:25:42

spaces , and really forced to look

1:25:44

at things that are part

1:25:46

of the human commune

1:25:49

or in human spaces as also nature

1:25:51

. And I think that's where we

1:25:53

sort of label

1:25:57

dogs as not wild

1:25:59

. It is because of their inherent

1:26:01

or their associations with humans

1:26:03

, because of whatever co-evolutionary

1:26:05

history there is them being around

1:26:08

human spaces and because of their

1:26:10

proclivity or their association

1:26:12

and affinity for humans . They

1:26:14

are not treated as , you know , animals

1:26:16

or as not treated as wild animals

1:26:18

would , and they are not afforded the same kinds

1:26:21

of rights and spaces to

1:26:23

be and the and

1:26:25

ways to control them and manage them and reduce

1:26:27

them , when we don't apply

1:26:29

these same rules for other animals

1:26:32

that are , you know , away from humans in

1:26:34

forests or non-human spaces

1:26:36

.

1:26:37

Yeah , really beautifully said , I think , and

1:26:39

of course it reminds me I had her on the show not too long ago

1:26:41

to talk about re-animalization and

1:26:43

how there's this idea not only to expect

1:26:45

animals to become more human or

1:26:48

adapt more to be human spaces , but

1:26:50

actually to re-animalize

1:26:52

what it means to be human and what

1:26:54

it means to have space . And

1:26:57

this requires and I've

1:26:59

mentioned risk a couple of times . This requires

1:27:01

accepting more risk that perhaps

1:27:03

to have healthy multi-species

1:27:06

collectives as well as multi-species

1:27:08

health entails a better

1:27:11

redistribution of both protection

1:27:14

, sure , but also of risk . It

1:27:16

can't always just be there , needs

1:27:18

to be more risk distributed

1:27:20

, and this includes risk to different human

1:27:23

groups .

1:27:24

Yeah , just to add to that , yeah , as

1:27:27

you mentioned , like as Rashmi mentioned

1:27:29

, that there's this distancing of

1:27:31

, like protected natures from

1:27:33

quote unquote , like human spaces

1:27:35

, and you also mentioned there is , there

1:27:38

is this like idea of risk inherent

1:27:40

in living with other non-humans

1:27:43

. Uh , it's , it's key

1:27:46

to also emphasize here

1:27:48

that , yeah , when we talk about human

1:27:50

also , humans are a differentiated

1:27:53

community . Community like , they're like social

1:27:55

difference . So when we talk about

1:27:57

, for example , protecting these

1:28:00

more risky beings like leopards

1:28:02

or elephants or wolves , who

1:28:05

, right , rightfully , should have , like

1:28:08

you know , their , like you know their habitats protected

1:28:10

, but we expect more like

1:28:12

rural people or , like you know

1:28:14

, people like who live in the forest , fringe

1:28:17

villages , to be okay with living

1:28:19

with these animals , while

1:28:21

we can't live with , like mice

1:28:24

or , like you know , pigeons or

1:28:26

girls here in um

1:28:28

edinburgh , foxes

1:28:30

, dogs uh , we are

1:28:32

not fine with living with these like

1:28:35

less risky , I would say still risky

1:28:37

, still can , uh

1:28:39

, like you know , impart disease , but we

1:28:42

find it so problematic to

1:28:44

live with them . But we expect to

1:28:46

displace this conservation to , like

1:28:48

other , more already marginalized

1:28:50

human groups . So , redistribution

1:28:54

of risk , it's not to say that , oh

1:28:56

, we need to marginalize already marginalized

1:28:58

human groups , but , yeah , there needs to be like

1:29:01

a differentiation of both , like

1:29:03

you know , in human communities not

1:29:05

, it's not a monolith and like

1:29:08

inclusion of equity and social

1:29:10

justice within human communities as

1:29:13

well as non-human community

1:29:15

. So it's a very expansive idea

1:29:17

and I think it's really important

1:29:20

to bring that home 100% .

1:29:22

And also , as Waldo mentioned , in that idea of marginalized

1:29:25

multi-species collectives , is how marginalizations

1:29:28

work with one another . Right , so you've got a marginalization

1:29:31

, let's say , of elephant populations in India

1:29:33

, who are also just trying to survive . Right , but

1:29:36

they are destroying crops and moving through spaces

1:29:38

as different spaces become increasingly

1:29:40

urbanized and built up . But the folks

1:29:42

living at these fringes are also often

1:29:44

marginalized and their marginalizations influence

1:29:47

and impact one another . But who

1:29:49

is making the policy decisions to build

1:29:51

up in places ? Who is benefiting

1:29:53

from the farming most versus

1:29:56

the tourism that's taken from the elephants

1:29:58

? So there is an unequal

1:30:01

distribution of burdens and benefits

1:30:03

, right , just a classic political economy conception

1:30:06

here . And I think you make

1:30:08

a valuable point of

1:30:10

just considering the risks in your own environment

1:30:12

and not saying that you have to

1:30:14

take on and agree and

1:30:16

embrace all risk . I don't

1:30:18

know if we would do that

1:30:20

, but perhaps just being okay with having a

1:30:23

little bit more risk and

1:30:25

maybe finding ways for that to be , I don't

1:30:29

know , this kind of pursuit of a completely

1:30:31

sanitized life .

1:30:34

I don't think it's helping

1:30:36

anyone . Really . I

1:30:39

think , yeah , there definitely has to be management of risk . It's not to say that , oh

1:30:41

, like you know , we need to just embrace all

1:30:43

risk without , like you know

1:30:45

, being able to have the opportunity

1:30:48

to self-preserve

1:30:50

oneself or to like

1:30:52

protect ourselves or manage

1:30:54

risk , but rather

1:30:56

than like very

1:30:58

easily going towards

1:31:01

like more destructive ways of going

1:31:03

towards total elimination or

1:31:05

, you know , killing should not be

1:31:07

the first option on the table

1:31:09

, it's just to say that , but

1:31:11

there might be more , better ways

1:31:14

of managing risk , and that's

1:31:16

why it's important to also look

1:31:18

at , like , how

1:31:21

people have , like you know

1:31:23

, human communities have always managed

1:31:25

, like outside of these urban environments

1:31:28

. These urban environments are quite a recent

1:31:30

phenomenon in history and humans have

1:31:32

been living beside , like you

1:31:34

know , non-human communities for such

1:31:36

a long time and they

1:31:38

have been managing risk . It's not like

1:31:40

they don't manage

1:31:43

risk in their surroundings and that they don't

1:31:45

have the traditional ways of co-living

1:31:48

and understandings of risk

1:31:50

and who bears the burden of

1:31:52

what kind of risk , but like

1:31:54

, we need to learn of

1:32:02

risk , but like we need to learn . And , again , the onus of responsibility in these

1:32:04

cases should be first on the elites in the urban areas , because they

1:32:06

are the ones like who . For

1:32:08

them , it's very easily easy to , for

1:32:11

us to , and I would say , like I'm also

1:32:13

one of the urban people like

1:32:15

that , we can insulate ourselves

1:32:17

very easily . Talk about insulating

1:32:20

ourselves from risk while displacing risk

1:32:22

to other , more marginalized

1:32:24

people .

1:32:25

I mean 100% , and I think it's

1:32:27

no secret that I think cities are a key area

1:32:29

where we need to focus on , because I

1:32:31

think a lot of these relations have been obfuscated

1:32:33

depending on the city you're in . There are some up

1:32:36

front , but just the the consumption in

1:32:38

cities alone is connected to massive

1:32:40

farming practices that happen outside of cities

1:32:42

that impact a variety of ecologies

1:32:44

, both including the people and animals

1:32:47

in those ecologies . Cities emanate

1:32:49

more light pollution and air pollution

1:32:51

than than other spaces . Right , so they have

1:32:53

a . There is a stake to be

1:32:55

said here with regards to how

1:32:57

much risk urbanites

1:32:59

should be willing to take on for the benefits they get for

1:33:01

being in the city , but , like you say , those

1:33:04

benefits are not equally distributed

1:33:06

. Okay , but we're going

1:33:08

to need to start wrapping up . This is , of

1:33:10

course , always a really interesting conversation . Thank

1:33:12

you both of you for joining me on the show While

1:33:14

we say goodbye here . Perhaps . I know you're both

1:33:17

still working on your PhDs , so

1:33:20

let us know if there's anything else you're currently working

1:33:22

on and if people want to get in

1:33:24

touch with you about your work

1:33:26

, how might be the best way to do that

1:33:28

?

1:33:29

Yeah , I'm just working on a few , a

1:33:32

couple of papers from the work that I've been

1:33:34

doing so far and emanating

1:33:36

from that , I think I'll be . I'm

1:33:39

co-organizing a symposium at

1:33:41

the ICCB , which

1:33:44

is International Congress for Conservation Biology

1:33:47

yeah , conservation

1:33:49

Biology which is in Brisbane

1:33:51

this year in June . So I'm organizing a symposium

1:33:53

on basically

1:33:56

titled Reimagining Domestic

1:33:58

Dogs in Socio-Ecological Systems Wow

1:34:01

, so

1:34:03

we're bringing in the

1:34:06

symposium only allows four talks so I

1:34:08

will give one of the talks but the other

1:34:10

talks would be on different roles

1:34:12

that domestic dogs have in

1:34:14

socio-ecological systems

1:34:16

. So there are a couple of talks from the Indian-Himalayanological system

1:34:19

. So there are a couple of talks from the Indian Himalayan region and then there are

1:34:21

a couple of talks from Australia

1:34:24

itself on dingoes , on camp dogs

1:34:26

and the nativeness of dingoes and

1:34:28

the debate around that . So hopefully

1:34:30

the symposium will allow

1:34:32

these conversations about the

1:34:35

basically discussions around the different

1:34:37

socio-ecological effects of

1:34:39

the domestic dogs , be it antagonistic

1:34:42

effects or positive , uh , facilitative

1:34:44

or mutualistic effects that they have

1:34:46

, and try to have some discussions

1:34:49

about how we could make , basically

1:34:51

try to foster , an

1:34:53

environment of safe cohabitation

1:34:55

and coexistence . So

1:34:58

hopefully then there will be a report

1:35:00

or a white paper based

1:35:02

on those discussions .

1:35:05

Is it open for attendance or is it a closed symposium

1:35:07

?

1:35:08

It's an open one . You have to register

1:35:11

for it . You can register for the symposium

1:35:13

and then you can attend . It's going to happen in

1:35:15

Brisbane this year .

1:35:17

Is it only in person , or is there a virtual option

1:35:19

as well ?

1:35:21

I am not sure if there's any

1:35:23

virtual one but if there is any I'll

1:35:25

let you know , okay , sounds good

1:35:27

, priya , any last words ?

1:35:31

just that I'll be busy

1:35:33

in the coming months trying to finish

1:35:35

up my PhD writing

1:35:37

. So , yeah , I'm just yeah

1:35:40

in the thick of writing

1:35:42

and finishing up my

1:35:44

chapters , trying to think through a

1:35:46

lot of concepts . If people

1:35:48

would like to get in touch with me and

1:35:50

, yeah , would like to discuss

1:35:53

any ideas about

1:35:55

multi-species cohabitation or

1:35:58

human animalanimal relations or dogs

1:36:00

in general would be are interested in my

1:36:02

work and would want to collaborate , yeah

1:36:05

, I would be happy to

1:36:07

discuss it further and yeah , my

1:36:09

contacts would be in found

1:36:12

at the ROAND's website

1:36:14

. That's the best way to get get in touch

1:36:16

with me .

1:36:17

Wonderful . Thank you , both of you , for all

1:36:19

of the work you've done this season with the animal

1:36:21

highlights I've learned a great deal from you and

1:36:24

for helping me kind of think through and unpack

1:36:26

this season here in the Grad

1:36:28

Review . Thank you , thank you so much for

1:36:30

your work . It's been a pleasure working with you

1:36:32

. All

1:36:47

right , folks . So we've reached the

1:36:50

end of season seven , where we've been talking

1:36:52

all about animals and multi-species

1:36:54

health . Just a reminder to please

1:36:56

head over to where you listen to

1:36:59

podcasts , whether it's Podchaser or Spotify

1:37:01

or iTunes it is iTunes , yeah

1:37:03

, itunes and leave

1:37:05

a review for the show . That would really be fantastic

1:37:08

and wonderful and I thank you , and I thank you and I

1:37:10

give you kisses and smooches and thank you so much . Thank

1:37:13

you also to Animals in Philosophy

1:37:16

, politics , law and Ethics , apple

1:37:18

, for being a longtime sponsor

1:37:20

of the show . Make sure you go and check out their website

1:37:22

to see the amazing work they are doing . Thank

1:37:25

you to the Remaking One Health Indies Project

1:37:28

, led by the wonderful Krithikas

1:37:30

Rinavasan , for sponsoring this season

1:37:32

. It's really been remarkable delving

1:37:34

into and thinking about multi-species

1:37:37

health . Thank you also to the Phoenix

1:37:39

Zones Initiative , which further contributed

1:37:41

to two other episodes in this season

1:37:44

. Thank you . Thank you so much , sponsors

1:37:46

, for helping to make this work possible

1:37:49

, and thank you also , listeners and

1:37:51

supporters who have headed over to our merch

1:37:53

store and supported us that

1:37:55

way . It really does help us keep

1:37:58

afloat . Thank you

1:38:00

to Priyashnu Thapliel and Rashmi

1:38:02

Singh Rana for being wonderful guests on

1:38:04

the show today . Thank you also for your

1:38:06

amazing work with the Animal Highlights . It's been

1:38:08

wonderful working with you over the course of

1:38:10

the season . Thank you to Jeremy

1:38:12

John for the logo , gordon Clark

1:38:14

for the bed music and Rebecca Shen

1:38:16

for her design work . This

1:38:19

episode was produced , edited and hosted

1:38:21

by myself . This

1:38:26

is the Animal Tone with me

1:38:28

, claudia Hertenfelder .

1:38:42

For more great iRule podcasts , visit

1:38:44

iRulePodcom . That's

1:38:50

I-R-O-A-R-P-O-D dot com .