0:00

LinkedIn presents There's

0:08

a great old therapy saying wherever you

0:10

go, there you are We bring

0:12

our trauma and our hurts

0:14

with us to work every day

0:17

Today two stories of openness and

0:19

healing I'm mora erin's mealy and

0:21

this is the anxious achiever the

0:23

show that looks at the intersection

0:25

of mental health and work And how

0:27

we can do both better Will

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AI improve our lives or exterminate

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the species? What would it

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take to abolish poverty? Are you

0:39

eating enough fermented foods? These

0:41

are some of the questions we've

0:43

tackled recently on the next

0:45

big idea I'm Rufus Griscombe and

0:47

every week I sit down

0:49

with the world's leading thinkers for

0:51

in -depth Conversations that will help

0:53

you live work and play

0:55

smarter Follow the next big idea

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wherever you get your podcasts Have

1:06

you ever felt like

1:08

you have to hide a huge

1:10

part of you at work

1:12

because of shame embarrassment guilt or

1:14

other reasons Today we're going

1:16

to speak about two pretty taboo

1:18

subjects at work trauma and substance

1:20

abuse and hear stories of healing

1:22

and Hopefully some practical advice for

1:24

everyone in the workplace Later

1:27

in the show my conversation with

1:29

Bobby Hoffman chief deputy at the

1:31

Hampton, Massachusetts County Sheriff's Office Who's

1:33

part of a program bringing therapy

1:35

dogs to the often macho and

1:38

not so mental health friendly work

1:40

of policing? But

1:42

first I speak with Schroeder

1:44

Stribbling President and CEO of

1:47

mental health America about

1:49

her own journey with mental health

1:51

and recovering from trauma What she tries

1:53

to bring to her organization as

1:55

a leader and what she's

1:57

seen in terms of past

1:59

trauma and addiction playing out at work.

2:01

You know, I was listening

2:03

to a wonderful video you

2:05

did about your own mental

2:08

health story for mindshare partners

2:10

and you mentioned something that

2:12

my radar picked right up

2:14

on, which is that growing

2:16

up in what sounds like

2:18

a little bit of a

2:20

tough childhood and adolescence, you

2:22

were used to scanning the

2:24

environment for threats and always

2:26

being attuned to that. what

2:28

we might call hypervigilance. And

2:30

that was something you really

2:33

worked on through therapy and

2:35

as you got older. Yeah,

2:37

you know, it's always so

2:39

interesting to think about your

2:41

story and especially as someone

2:43

who was trained as a

2:45

clinician, I could kind of

2:47

enter my story from a

2:49

clinical lens and you know,

2:51

think about that issue of

2:53

scanning for threats and think about

2:56

how I would probably date back

2:58

if I were looking at clinically

3:00

my own history to the very

3:02

first panic attack that I had

3:04

when I was 16 years old

3:07

which I remember so so vividly

3:09

and from there you know I

3:11

really struggled with a lot of

3:13

panic attacks in my adolescence and

3:15

into my 20s and certainly that

3:18

notion of hypervigilance is a part

3:20

of what happens when you're experiencing

3:22

that that it's sometimes the anticipatoryatory

3:24

anxiety is just as difficult as

3:26

the moments of extreme panic themselves

3:29

and so you do kind of

3:31

get into the habit to the

3:33

scanning for threat mode. Yeah it's

3:35

like a habit yeah yeah you

3:37

know so when I when I

3:40

enter the story that way it

3:42

feels very clinical but you know

3:44

I also think about the story

3:46

that sort of like was around

3:48

that you know what the meaning

3:51

of the story of my life

3:53

and why I think I had

3:55

a panic attack and this for

3:57

me as I have

3:59

found different ways

4:02

to work on and support

4:04

and improve my own well -being and mental

4:06

health over the years. It's been really

4:08

important to me to kind of learn

4:10

to tell the story and

4:12

hear my own story as

4:14

a narrative with meaning so

4:16

that I'm not pathologizing it in

4:19

my own mind. That

4:21

day, I was with my biological

4:23

father who I hadn't seen for quite a

4:25

while, and I'd gone

4:27

to be with him in Manhattan.

4:31

I knew that day

4:33

that he had AIDS. His

4:36

was along in difficult story

4:38

himself. He was a former Methodist

4:40

minister who had left his calling

4:42

to come out of the closet

4:45

and himself really struggled with

4:47

mental health substance use issues and took

4:49

him to some very dark places ultimately.

4:52

But the start of that for

4:54

me was, I think, a

4:57

part of a really painful story

4:59

in my life, no doubt. There

5:01

were many terrific things about my

5:03

youth and young adulthood, and I'm

5:05

very grateful for them

5:07

because I think they were so

5:09

stabilizing. But the story around my

5:11

father and his death was a

5:14

central and really traumatic theme for

5:16

me, and it's also kind

5:18

of what made me who I

5:20

am. So I wouldn't

5:22

trade it. I really wouldn't.

5:25

We say that, right? It made me who I am.

5:27

What does that mean to you when you say that? Shortly

5:30

after my father died, I found myself

5:32

going to social work school, and I

5:34

wasn't really knowing why. I was a

5:36

little bit adrift probably at the

5:38

time. But all I really knew was

5:40

that I kind of had a bleeding

5:42

heart. I wanted to help people, and

5:45

it wouldn't be until later, and I

5:47

would sort of figure out how to

5:49

understand the story differently

5:51

in my own mind that I

5:53

really understood that because I

5:55

had been through pain, I felt

5:57

called to be in company with.

6:00

and had empathy for

6:02

other people in

6:04

pain. And I was also motivated

6:06

for action. I'd gotten sort of

6:08

socially active around the AIDS movement,

6:10

too. And so I think those

6:12

things just, they

6:14

became part of what was healing for me,

6:17

ultimately, I guess. So I thought that

6:19

was part of how I followed the path

6:21

to where I entered. You

6:23

also talked about a sense when you were

6:25

younger and going through this that you

6:27

felt like you couldn't leave the house

6:29

sometimes because you're

6:31

worried about panic and anxiety was

6:34

so strong. Yeah, I

6:36

do remember, you know, kind

6:38

of at it's, probably that

6:40

was my junior

6:42

year in high school when it

6:44

had started. And that year,

6:46

I do remember staying home from school

6:48

because I didn't want it

6:50

to happen there. And I

6:52

do remember times of asking my

6:54

parents, my mother and stepfather, telling

6:57

them I was really positive I was having a

6:59

heart attack. You know, there

7:01

wasn't language for it at the time.

7:03

I mean, then again, this was the 90s.

7:05

And I did have parents who were really

7:07

hip to the circumstance. I

7:09

even, I was really lucky. I

7:11

also had support for school

7:14

environment and friends and whatnot.

7:16

So it did get some help.

7:18

But I don't remember anybody at

7:20

the time saying to me, like,

7:22

this is what this

7:24

is. And this is

7:26

manageable. When did you sort of

7:28

become an administrator,

7:30

a leader, a manager and

7:32

not a clinician? What drove

7:34

that decision for you? I think

7:36

I've always enjoyed leadership.

7:39

And even, you

7:41

know, when I was younger and pure

7:44

blood things and whatnot. So

7:46

I'm inclined that way, I

7:48

guess. But as my career

7:50

went on, I had

7:52

opportunities to lead programs.

7:56

And, you know, sometimes that happens if you're,

7:58

and you're not necessarily prepared. to lead

8:00

something even if you've been

8:02

doing the direct service and then

8:04

leading the direct services can be a

8:06

really different thing. But I liked it.

8:09

I liked the challenge. And

8:11

so, when I got to, I

8:13

would say, like in the

8:15

early odds, I was kind of leadership

8:17

position with

8:19

a job as part of

8:21

Johns Hopkins Bay View in inner

8:23

city Baltimore. And then I had got this

8:26

opportunity in a nonprofit in DC where

8:28

I was then for many years. And

8:30

while I was there, I arrived as the

8:32

program director and then had successive positions

8:34

there, which I really

8:36

enjoyed every opportunity I liked. I

8:38

just like people. So,

8:43

I think whether it was working

8:45

with our residents or whether it

8:47

was working with our board, I was

8:49

pretty happy. And I kind of

8:51

like to solve problems in groups together

8:53

and whatnot. So, as I was

8:55

given those opportunities, I was really glad

8:57

to have them. And

8:59

they were part of

9:01

my own growth too. I'm

9:04

curious how you

9:06

talk about mental health with

9:08

your staff at Mental Health

9:10

America. And probably there are a lot

9:12

of clinicians in management at Mental

9:14

Health America. It's

9:16

a hard thing to do. But

9:18

how do you, as a

9:21

leader who is informed by your

9:23

own experience, by your training,

9:25

getting that lens into staff meetings

9:27

and check -ins and budgeting and

9:29

all the things? All the

9:31

things. I am so grateful to

9:34

be at this organization. I've

9:36

learned so much from

9:38

the staff who are

9:40

there around the

9:42

culture of

9:45

acceptance and openness that

9:47

they have cultivated and

9:50

that I really walked into. I

9:52

mean, I feel full disclosure,

9:54

most of them are younger than

9:56

I am kind of learning

9:58

their culture as we gotten used

10:00

to each other over the last

10:02

three years. And I just deeply

10:04

appreciate the degree of sensitivity that

10:06

they have for this. There is an

10:09

enormous amount of openness, as you can

10:11

imagine. People are quite comfortable

10:13

sharing with one another, and at

10:15

the same time, I think, really

10:17

respecting each other's boundaries. But also

10:19

notice, just a tremendous support,

10:21

like people feel concerned for

10:23

someone or someone looks a

10:25

little. down or they weren't

10:27

as active on Zoom or

10:29

whatnot. It's just an awareness,

10:32

kind of a nice like

10:34

ongoing awareness. So to your

10:36

question about like how do

10:39

you explicitly bring it in,

10:41

I have felt that it

10:44

was right and appropriate and

10:46

in fact necessary

10:48

for me to be open in the

10:50

way that was right for

10:52

me. It was comfortable for

10:55

me. with the staff about my

10:57

own experience. And, you know, we all

10:59

have a story, and we all have a

11:01

story, right? And it's important

11:04

to find, like, you know, it's different

11:06

for different audiences

11:08

sometimes, but it's important to

11:10

find, I think, where's your

11:12

right set point in telling

11:14

your own story, you know, what feels

11:17

comfortable, and how it is that

11:19

you want to share it, like we

11:21

were kind of talking about it at

11:23

the beginning. I've tried to be true to

11:25

myself in that and share with the staff

11:28

my story in the way that I would

11:30

and I have found nothing but

11:32

acceptance and I also I think

11:34

it's important they need to know

11:36

I mean this is important for

11:38

all workplaces right the leaders need

11:40

to be open that sets the

11:42

stage for what else is possible

11:44

in this case I guess I'm

11:46

just saying I'm sort of following

11:48

them they have cultivated something really

11:50

lovely and I'm appreciate the

11:52

culture that's there. I have to ask you

11:55

your professional advice about boundaries.

11:57

A lot of the fear that I hear

11:59

from leaders. And sometimes I think this

12:01

is imagined, but sometimes it's real

12:03

is, well, if everyone feels like

12:05

we can bring our emotions into

12:07

the conversation with regularity, we are

12:09

going to lose that sense of

12:11

boundaries. People aren't going to be

12:14

professional. They're going to use it

12:16

as an excuse, you know, and

12:18

there's a lot of anxiety around

12:20

being more open about mental health.

12:22

What's your advice there? Well, that

12:24

strikes me as two different conversations,

12:26

kind of. is around emotions in

12:29

the workplace and what the

12:31

group's contract or their agreement

12:33

with each other is about how

12:35

emotions in the workplace are

12:38

expressed and handled, etc.

12:40

I mean, there's a lot

12:42

of interesting work around that

12:45

actually, and there are certainly

12:47

some places which practice kind

12:49

of, you know, emotional check-in,

12:51

so you get the temperature

12:54

of the room. There are, I can

12:56

imagine... situations in which,

12:58

you know, teams would have kind

13:00

of an explicit agreement with

13:02

each other about how they

13:04

wanted to handle things that

13:06

got hot or spicy or

13:09

emotional in meetings. But the other

13:11

issue that you bring up about,

13:13

you know, opening the floodgates? Yes,

13:16

that's the sense, yes. Yeah. I

13:18

get why that's a fear for

13:20

people, especially, say, for managers

13:23

or leaders, if they feel unprepared.

13:26

I think having a good plan before

13:28

you do anything, right? So having

13:31

a good plan for, you know,

13:33

we're gonna focus on corporate

13:35

mental health and we'll start

13:37

with this all hands meeting and

13:40

our leaders gonna share some of

13:42

this personal experience in his

13:44

hope for our workplace

13:46

and then our teams gonna talk, whatever

13:48

it is. Yeah, right. But the point being

13:50

that, you know, like if you constructed something

13:53

that would sort of be a container for

13:55

it would really help, and there is a

13:57

lot of help for workplaces out there right

13:59

now. who want to do, including

14:01

at Mental Health America as well,

14:04

where we have a workplace mental

14:06

health program and other places

14:08

certainly have great ones too. But I

14:10

do think part of that is

14:12

just fear. And some of it may

14:14

even be fear of what people will

14:17

themselves be asked to disclose. You know,

14:19

leaders may think, gee, I don't want

14:21

to, I'm not comfortable starting

14:23

this conversation. And that's okay

14:25

too. There can be ways to... work

14:27

around that. What studies have clearly

14:30

shown is that the person who

14:32

has the greatest effect on

14:34

any one worker's feeling

14:36

of psychological safety in

14:38

the workplace and their

14:40

ability to discuss mental

14:43

health is the behavior and

14:45

conversation of their manager,

14:47

so their direct supervisor.

14:50

So to the extent that,

14:52

you know, that group of

14:54

people can be supported and

14:56

influence to talk about these

14:58

things, be comfortable with these

15:00

things, you know, that's really

15:02

important. You talk a lot

15:05

about the effect of early intervention

15:07

and support in your own life

15:09

on your own mental health journey

15:11

and we know that, you know,

15:14

getting help helps. I'm curious if

15:16

you reflect ever on how your

15:18

own sort of temperament and experiences

15:21

as a younger person show up

15:23

in ways good and bad at

15:25

in your management and how

15:27

you've learned to manage them. Yeah,

15:30

that's such a good question

15:32

and it's actually been a

15:34

really important kind of defining

15:36

one for me professionally. I can

15:38

remember reading and I'm sure you've

15:41

read all these things too that's

15:43

like just things about like just

15:45

the right amount of anxiety, yes.

15:47

All this business talk about how

15:50

like anxiety can be good for

15:52

you and I get it, you know,

15:54

but I think of all mental

15:56

health really well, I shouldn't

15:59

say all much. of mental

16:01

health on a continuum, right? Sometimes

16:03

it's a little worse, sometimes it's

16:05

a little better, we go through

16:07

cycles in life and sometimes some

16:09

people have more severe

16:11

circumstances than others,

16:13

etc. For me, what

16:15

I have thought is

16:17

that when my

16:19

anxiety is overwhelming, it

16:22

definitely works against

16:24

me. I know the type

16:26

of circumstances which are most likely to put

16:29

me in that place, and then

16:31

I'm at risk for overworking myself and

16:33

then creates all other set of problems. But

16:35

there are many times when

16:37

I've been in the groove when

16:40

I do understand

16:42

that a

16:44

little bit of anxiety is driving me,

16:46

and I do believe that some

16:48

of the kind of go

16:50

-go -go motivation I

16:53

have in life is probably

16:55

about anxiety. Are

16:57

you an anxious achiever? Yeah. I

17:03

know. I told my partner last night that I

17:05

was going to be on your show, and I told

17:07

her what the name of it was, and she said,

17:09

oh, it was perfect for you.

17:12

That's the point. So,

17:18

I don't know, it has definitely

17:20

worked for me, I'm sure, and there

17:22

are times it works against me.

17:24

What I've learned in getting older, and

17:26

this is one of the gifts

17:28

of getting older to me,

17:30

is I know my

17:32

own cycles more. I

17:34

know where my vulnerabilities

17:36

are. I

17:41

know to make a change. I

17:43

need to slow something down.

17:45

I need to take some time

17:47

off. I need to hit

17:49

the brakes. I also have found

17:51

ways to work with people and surround

17:53

myself with other leaders. I mean, I talk

17:55

about mental health and the work place. This

17:57

is a lovely dynamic where I have colleagues

18:00

who also can tap me on the

18:02

shoulder and say like hey you need

18:04

to take a break or slow things

18:06

down or that sort of thing and

18:09

it's very helpful. One of my favorite

18:11

questions people tell me really fun things

18:13

is do you have a physical like

18:16

tell in your body or how you

18:18

act you mentioned overworking when you're like

18:20

oh I'm running hot? Oh that's so

18:23

funny I wonder if I do I

18:25

don't know I have bipolar too and

18:27

so for me I can tell when

18:30

I'm getting hypomanic because I start having

18:32

a million ideas and starting a million

18:34

new projects sometimes in a day. And

18:37

my husband, he'll sense it in me,

18:39

in my energy. He's like, you've been

18:41

up since five and you're doing this,

18:44

this and this, like, let's check in.

18:46

You know? Yeah. Yes, and isn't it

18:48

wonderful to have people who know... Oh,

18:51

it's the best. Yes, and yeah, yeah,

18:53

yeah. I mean, I guess I would

18:55

say that, you know, what people probably

18:58

react to is, or when people do

19:00

tap me on the shoulder, my good

19:02

entrusted colleagues and friends, is probably a

19:05

bit of change in my mood. You

19:07

know, I'm probably a little more serious,

19:09

more driven, more... worried about, you know,

19:12

kind of worrying over small stuff or

19:14

whatnot. So I can kind of see

19:16

that I'm behave a bit differently. I

19:19

think to have the freedom to be

19:21

open is also a blessing in your

19:23

workplace, you know? Yes. I find that

19:26

a lot of the teams that I

19:28

think are humming along best are the

19:30

teams where it's a little bit like

19:33

that, you know, where it's like a

19:35

little tap on the shoulder or just

19:37

checking in. No, absolutely, it makes a

19:40

huge difference. I want to talk a

19:42

little bit about the issue of substance

19:44

abuse. This is one of Mental Health

19:47

America's focus areas, I suppose. I don't

19:49

know if that's the right way to

19:51

phrase it. I want to talk about

19:54

substance abuse at work. Can you just

19:56

out? line just a

19:58

little bit if

20:01

you're able to. How

20:03

prevalent is substance use

20:05

disorder or substance

20:07

abuse? Well, first of all, how

20:09

has the terminology changed? Can you just

20:11

tell the audience a little bit about

20:14

that because it has changed recently how

20:16

we talk about substance use, substance

20:18

abuse, addiction. Well,

20:20

I'll speak through my perspective.

20:22

And I'll say that

20:24

this is an evolving conversation

20:27

I believe in the field.

20:29

And I hope really

20:31

in the field and evolving

20:33

conversation for us at

20:35

Mental Health America as well.

20:37

First of all, just some sort

20:40

of like background basics as you ask

20:42

about terminology, et cetera. Just as

20:44

I was mentioning with, you know, other

20:46

conditions, I think of substance

20:48

use as something that exists

20:50

on a continuum. And everyone

20:53

is going to have their unique

20:55

experience. And for some, it will

20:57

be more severe. For others, not. For

21:00

some, there'll be a lot of cycles

21:02

and chronicity. For others, not.

21:04

But I'm very interested

21:08

in the fact that

21:10

I think there's a much

21:12

deeper stigma for substance use

21:14

conditions. And I use the

21:17

word conditions, not disorders. I

21:20

think it's less pathologizing. And I

21:22

think that's true across the board. What

21:24

about the word addiction? Sorry, I just want to

21:27

interject there. Well, there is,

21:29

I mean, there is a

21:31

technical distinction at a certain

21:33

point because addiction has been

21:35

historically meant to reference when

21:37

you had a physical addiction

21:39

that would lead to withdrawal symptoms

21:41

if you stopped use of

21:43

a substance. So I

21:45

think there's probably still kind of a

21:47

clinical place for the use of that

21:49

word, especially when

21:52

the, during this opioid crisis

21:54

and the withdrawal issues are

21:56

so significant and dangerous, et

21:59

cetera. So I guess I would say

22:01

in thinking about it as a

22:03

continuum, like I'd put addiction at

22:05

the, at the severity. So, you

22:08

know, what we know from, like

22:10

if you looked at the NISDA,

22:12

the National Survey of Household, and

22:14

I'm going to forget the rest

22:16

of the name, but how we,

22:19

the federal data that tells us

22:21

the most about prevalence, you'd look

22:23

at that in a couple of

22:25

things, maybe somewhere around 20%

22:27

of people acknowledge. a substance

22:30

use condition or substance

22:32

abuse on that. So one

22:34

in five at any given point

22:37

in time has sort of

22:39

been the going number. However,

22:41

I personally cannot imagine

22:43

that that's not an undercount

22:45

for a number of reasons.

22:48

One is that

22:50

self-disclosure is so difficult

22:52

for people. And, you know,

22:55

also deeper in that data.

22:57

when asked when that 17% or

22:59

whatever the last one survey said

23:01

of people who acknowledge substance abuse

23:04

when asked whether they had received

23:06

any treatment for it only a

23:08

quarter of them said yes. Wow.

23:10

So one of the things that

23:12

really concerns me first of all

23:14

is that we address the fact

23:16

that there's a deeper stigma and

23:19

that we have kind of bifurcated

23:21

this issue is if you know

23:23

mental health and substance use

23:25

were like different things. You know,

23:27

it's all part of our human

23:29

experience of emotional,

23:31

behavioral, psychological life.

23:33

I was sort of surprised coming into

23:36

the policy world from the practice

23:38

world where I spent my

23:40

life finding just how separate

23:43

the conversations were. Of course, there's

23:45

a hugely high rate of what

23:47

people would call co-occurrence

23:49

or comorbidity. between mental

23:51

health and substance use issues. So

23:53

it really doesn't make sense to

23:56

not be thinking holistically about the

23:58

whole person and you know. what they're

24:01

experiencing. When it comes

24:03

to the substance issue specifically

24:05

and the fact that we probably

24:07

have an undercount, we know for

24:09

a fact that people are not

24:11

getting to care, I really worry

24:13

about who's left behind. One of

24:15

the things that concerns me is that

24:18

part of the reason that's happening is

24:20

that we haven't found the right

24:22

way to reach them. Yes, it's

24:24

about the stigma for sure

24:26

and it's about the fear

24:28

of... self-disclosure and etc. but

24:31

I'm not sure that we've

24:33

provided people who are somewhere

24:35

on the continuum with enough sense

24:37

that they can get help

24:39

to reach their goals even

24:42

if their goal is something

24:44

other than abstinence

24:46

like if it's

24:48

moderation-assisted treatment and hopefully

24:50

there will be more

24:53

innovation for people. But I

24:55

really think we have to think seriously

24:57

about are we meeting people where

24:59

we are as much as we

25:01

could. It's interesting what you're saying,

25:03

it sounds to me as

25:05

a layperson, maybe that we've

25:07

been so binary in how

25:09

we think about, you know,

25:11

you're either taking substances or

25:13

you're done forever, right, or

25:15

you're going cold turkey, or

25:17

just say no. I mean,

25:19

all the sayings that maybe,

25:22

depending on individual... That's not

25:24

always realistic in that getting them

25:26

help is about getting them help

25:28

to continue to the next day.

25:30

Yes, and to reach, you know,

25:32

what their goals are. I'm a

25:34

big fan of the work of

25:37

Nora Volkow, who's the director of

25:39

NIDA, Nationalist drug addiction, George

25:41

drug music, NIH, and one

25:43

of the things that has, you know,

25:46

made an impression on me over the

25:48

years is that we have very little...

25:50

real long-term data about

25:52

what works and what

25:54

helps. Really? Yeah, we don't

25:57

know, you know, past the

25:59

five-year... I don't want to actually

26:01

say a number, but it's not

26:03

long because, you know, even places

26:05

that do say things that were considered

26:07

sort of gold standard treatment was

26:09

get somebody to residential care

26:11

and then they go into

26:13

complete abstinence and they use

26:16

community supports. That just might

26:18

not be right for everybody, but the other

26:20

thing is, you know, there's not

26:22

a lot of tracking of that

26:24

data. Even those treatment centers are

26:26

not able to keep track with

26:28

people for long, long stretches of

26:30

time. And I

26:32

mentioned Nora Volkow, you know,

26:34

I remember reading something of hers not

26:36

long ago talking about the issue

26:38

of chronicity and how we really have

26:40

to square with some of the hard

26:43

truths we know about how chronic

26:45

this can sometimes be. So there's

26:47

some mysterious, like unknown territory

26:49

there in terms of

26:51

the research and it's another

26:53

thing that makes me question whether

26:55

we've had enough pathways to

26:57

help to really help all the

26:59

people who need it. Shifting back to

27:01

the workplace, I mean, we think mental health is

27:03

tough to talk about substance abuse

27:05

that we suspect

27:08

is really hard to talk about.

27:10

But what I hear you also

27:12

saying is we can't think of

27:14

them as totally different things.

27:16

What can people who study

27:18

mental health at work and try to

27:20

implement better practices for mental health at

27:22

work do better to include substance use

27:25

as part of the conversation? You

27:27

know, one thing is to sort

27:29

of start simply and whatever things

27:31

employees are seeing or hearing.

27:33

So if that's like, you

27:36

know, a poster on the

27:38

wall that's indicating safe space

27:40

to get help, if you need an

27:42

EAP program or something like that, that

27:44

anywhere we're mentioning mental

27:46

health, that is very clear

27:48

that it's inclusive of substance

27:50

use concerns and use language

27:53

that is non -threatening to people,

27:55

you know, if you're, are you

27:57

struggling with anything substance abuse?

28:00

concerns, any mental health concerns,

28:02

so that we're using the language

28:04

together and that's what people

28:06

are hearing in what they read and what

28:08

the messages that they're getting

28:10

from whoever is delivering messages

28:13

about, you know, any corporate support

28:15

stuff, then the same sort of

28:17

principle applies to managers if they're

28:19

bringing it up in terms of, you know,

28:22

when they talk about mental health that

28:24

they should use that language around

28:26

substance use too, to indicate that

28:28

that's okay. The other thing I

28:30

think for managers and having you

28:33

know knowing this story from the

28:35

other side is it's very helpful

28:37

to have a very clear and

28:39

I would argue extremely compassionate

28:42

corporate policy for supporting

28:45

people who acknowledge substance

28:47

use and if managers

28:49

know that and are feel empowered

28:51

with that information it will make

28:54

it easier for them to bring

28:56

up any concerns that they have.

28:58

So for instance, if you know that even

29:00

if asked, if an employee acknowledges it, or

29:02

in some way indicates that they

29:05

want support, that the organization will

29:07

support them in getting help. And

29:09

the organization where I was for

29:11

a long time would do that.

29:13

We would certainly do that at

29:15

Mental Health America. No, absolutely. It's

29:17

just like anything else. And so

29:19

I think having people know that

29:21

there's a compassionate policy, help is

29:23

available, makes it easier to open

29:25

the conversation. One of my big goals

29:27

always with the show is that anyone

29:30

who's listening out there may not

29:32

feel alone after listening. So I'm going

29:34

to ask you this question and I

29:36

have no idea if you can answer

29:38

it. But do we have any sense

29:41

of how many people on average

29:43

who are struggling with either

29:45

clinical anxiety or depression

29:47

are using substances to manage

29:50

through? I mean, anecdotally, I talk to

29:52

tons of people who talk about how...

29:54

They still showed up for work every

29:56

day, but man were they drinking at

29:58

night just to manage the roof. Yeah,

30:00

yeah. Well, a couple of

30:02

things on that, I think

30:04

you're absolutely right. And the

30:06

first thing is to say

30:08

that very often, even substance

30:10

use is self-medication of some

30:12

kind. And that's a part

30:14

of the kind of complex

30:17

intertwining that it has with

30:19

other mental health issues. And

30:21

the other thing that's of

30:23

note that you've mentioned is

30:25

that we do know that

30:27

there was an increase in

30:29

substance use and people are

30:31

working remotely and all that

30:33

that brought with it, including

30:35

access to substances. You know,

30:38

we know that this is

30:40

a different and probably more

30:42

urgent issue than it was

30:44

before and very hard to

30:46

man it. Yes. All I

30:48

would say there is I'm

30:50

not sure workplaces have figured

30:52

this out yet. No. Are

30:54

there any glimmers of hope

30:56

that you're seeing? No, the

30:59

news is bad. The news

31:01

is just square with the

31:03

real, you know, the mental

31:05

health data that's coming out,

31:07

whether you're looking at our

31:09

screening program and the numbers

31:11

of young people who are

31:13

screening at risk for depression

31:15

and anxiety and screening themselves

31:17

for trauma. The numbers aren't

31:20

good, the disparities are extreme.

31:22

So there's a lot of

31:24

bad news out there. Here's

31:26

where I would make a

31:28

case for hope and I

31:30

actually think it is really

31:32

important and spend as especially

31:34

for those of us who

31:36

are working in this field

31:38

and those who are providing

31:41

leadership voice in these conversations,

31:43

is, we must remain hopeful

31:45

because there are solutions out

31:47

there. First of all, people

31:49

are not alone. Second of

31:51

all, innovation is happening kind

31:53

of at lightning speed in

31:55

mental health, which is interesting.

31:57

What kind of innovation? What

31:59

do you mean innovation? Well,

32:02

for instance, there are all

32:04

kinds of digital behavioral health

32:06

services that we didn't have

32:08

before, and they vary in

32:10

all different kinds of ways.

32:12

There's an interesting big, you

32:14

know, wellness movement that's really

32:16

pushing mental health in a

32:18

different way, but frankly, I

32:21

think it's positive. And there

32:23

are community solutions that do

32:25

work. We've seen them in

32:27

action. We see them in

32:29

our affiliates. I've seen them

32:31

at, you know, my... prior

32:33

organization, you know, people do

32:35

recover and we know what

32:37

the kind of supports and

32:39

peer support and social health

32:42

factors are at play and

32:44

we know what some of

32:46

those solutions are. The challenge

32:48

of course is in the

32:50

implementation and the other big

32:52

piece of hope is that

32:54

this is a very active

32:56

conversation right now obviously. Yes,

32:58

and that is, you know,

33:00

there's no turning back the

33:03

clock on that, I think,

33:05

the genies out of the

33:07

bottle, and that's a good

33:09

thing. I'm Jesse Hemple, host

33:11

of Hello Monday. In my

33:13

20s, I knew what I

33:15

wanted from my career. But

33:17

from where I am now,

33:19

in the middle of my

33:21

life, nothing feels as certain.

33:24

Works changing, we're changing, and

33:26

there's no guidebook for how

33:28

to make sense of any

33:30

of it. So every Monday

33:32

I bring you conversations with

33:34

people who are thinking deeply

33:36

about work and where it

33:38

fits into our lives. We

33:40

talk about making career pivots,

33:42

about purpose and

33:45

how to

33:47

discern it, about

33:49

where happiness

33:51

fits into the

33:53

mix, and

33:55

how to ask

33:57

for more

33:59

money. Come join

34:01

us in

34:03

the Hello Monday

34:06

community. Let's

34:08

figure out the

34:10

future together. Listen

34:13

to Hello Monday with Jesse Hemphill wherever

34:15

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34:20

I'm Jonathan Fields. Tune in to my

34:23

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34:25

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34:27

also listen to other people's questions

34:29

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34:31

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34:33

Check out SPART wherever you enjoy podcasts.

34:42

Robert Hoffman, welcome. Tell

34:45

us a little bit about

34:47

your job and where we're speaking

34:49

to you from. Sure. So

34:51

you're speaking to us from

34:53

downtown Springfield, the third largest

34:56

city in Massachusetts. And I

34:58

run what's called the Civil

35:00

Process Division of the Sheriff's

35:02

Department, meaning we serve all

35:04

types of civil and criminal

35:06

summons, subpoenas, as well as

35:08

we perform high volume

35:10

of evictions more throughout

35:13

Hamden County, which encompasses 23

35:15

cities and towns. And

35:17

our work is very

35:19

challenging and very interesting,

35:22

but very mentally

35:24

challenging based on

35:26

our mission. And

35:28

our county is not the

35:30

largest county in the Commonwealth, but

35:32

we are the busiest in terms of

35:34

volume of work we do here. I

35:37

don't know really what to attribute that to, but

35:39

the numbers kind of speak for

35:41

themselves in terms of our volume each

35:43

year. I met you at our kid's

35:45

basketball game and you were

35:47

an off day, you weren't in

35:49

uniform, but you had this

35:51

beautiful dog with you who was

35:53

clearly a working dog, although

35:55

she was getting her fair share

35:58

of treats, and we got to talking. And

36:00

I said, I host a show

36:02

about mental health at work, and you

36:04

told me about Sierra. Tell

36:06

us about Sierra. During the pandemic

36:09

more, our office was pretty much

36:11

shut down based on the courthouses

36:13

across the Commonwealth being shut down

36:15

as well. And obviously our work

36:17

depends on the litigation and process

36:19

that runs through the Commonwealth's court

36:21

system. And so when they were

36:23

dormant, we were as well. And

36:25

there was also an eviction moratorium

36:27

in place for quite some time.

36:29

And then when we finally got

36:31

back up and running in the

36:33

fall of 2020, we began to

36:36

experience a return of our work,

36:38

which we worried about during the

36:40

pandemic when we were shut down

36:42

on whether or not it would

36:44

ever come back. And if so,

36:46

in what fashion? And it began

36:48

to come back with a vengeance.

36:51

But it was not only

36:53

coming back. It was coming

36:56

back more challenging than ever

36:58

in terms of the unique

37:00

and unfortunate circumstances that we

37:02

were beginning to come across,

37:04

which was not unique to

37:07

us, but the regularity with

37:09

which we were coming across

37:11

it was right. And the

37:13

circumstances that we couldn't simply

37:15

draw up or make up

37:18

ourselves, we were coming up

37:20

against. Say more. What does

37:22

that mean? Well, I mean,

37:24

we were evicting an individual

37:26

in a town of Long

37:29

Meadow in our county and

37:31

upon our entry into this

37:33

house, we were met by

37:35

a woman that pulled up

37:37

in a vehicle with a

37:40

trailer attached to it. And

37:42

her arrival was a little

37:44

bewildering to us. We didn't

37:46

know who she was or

37:48

what her affiliation was with

37:51

the individual we were evicting,

37:53

and she immediately proceeded over

37:55

to the trailer where she

37:57

had tubs or, you know,

37:59

large containers, and she began

38:01

to rock these containers back. and

38:04

four and it occurred to us that there were bees

38:06

in these containers and what she was trying to do

38:08

is agitate the bees by rocking them back and

38:10

forth and then her plan was

38:13

to you know pull the lids off of

38:15

the containers to potentially

38:17

you know number one inflict

38:19

you know or unleash these

38:21

bees on us and also

38:24

probably try to avert this

38:26

eviction from happening. And never

38:28

in my career, Mora, did we

38:30

ever plan for or strategize

38:33

on how to deal with

38:35

being attacked by bees. That's

38:37

scary. And that really, as

38:40

crazy as it sounds, started

38:42

an experience for me

38:44

and my staff that hasn't

38:47

let up. Obviously we've

38:49

not, thankfully, come across

38:52

bees again, but the state

38:54

of mind. of the people that

38:56

were coming across is sad, unfortunate,

38:59

dangerous, and we are on

39:01

the front lines of this mental

39:03

health crisis because nobody

39:06

calls us more to tell us

39:08

their life's going great, right? Their

39:10

kids are healthy, they're doing

39:12

great in sports, they're going

39:15

to Harvard, they're coming

39:17

to us with very bleak scenario.

39:19

But the problem is, and

39:21

I said this to somebody the other

39:24

day where You know, once in a

39:26

while more I would call the sheriff

39:28

our boss directly at night to tell

39:30

him of an occurrence that we had

39:32

during the day that I think he should

39:35

be aware of, right? And now I don't

39:37

really call him very often

39:39

because these scenarios play

39:41

out almost on a daily

39:43

basis. And you know, the sheriff's

39:45

department encompasses a lot

39:48

of different divisions, you

39:50

know, obviously corrections and

39:52

incarceration is really the... the

39:54

main, I guess, anchor of the sheriff's

39:56

mission within the Connell Well,

39:58

and work kind of... a side part

40:00

of that. But there are a

40:03

variety of comfort dogs or emotional

40:05

support dogs within the jail that

40:07

are employed to go inside the

40:10

jail and allow the inmate population

40:12

to realize the benefits of, you

40:14

know, canine companionship. And I think

40:16

it was back in early September

40:19

of last year, where I was

40:21

not ever a dog guy. In

40:23

fact, I thought that relationships with

40:26

dogs and the impact of dogs

40:28

was somewhat borderline exaggerated or fictitious.

40:30

To that extent. But something in

40:32

my head, kind of, and I

40:35

saw that the toll that this

40:37

was having more on our staff,

40:39

right, is just even the most

40:42

seasoned. you know our best deputies

40:44

I could tell were coming back

40:46

to me at night or in

40:48

the morning and they looked mentally

40:51

exhausted right and then they have

40:53

to go out the next day

40:55

and get right back at it

40:57

the next day and be prepared

41:00

to be in the right mindset

41:02

to deal with whatever challenge was

41:04

going to be fallest the next

41:07

day and I had thought about

41:09

the idea over the summer and

41:11

you know I ever really what

41:13

I cherished is my relationship with

41:16

our sheriff he's you know I

41:18

do have the luxury of reporting

41:20

right to him but he's also

41:23

a very very close friend of

41:25

mine and I confided in him

41:27

on a weekend socially about my

41:29

idea yeah you know my office

41:32

obtaining a comfort dog in a

41:34

selfish way assigned to me and

41:36

he looked at me and immediately

41:39

said he thought it's one of

41:41

the best ideas I've ever broached

41:43

with him in the eight years

41:45

he's been sheriff. Is he a

41:48

dog guy? He's an animal lover

41:50

in general. Yeah, horses now. We

41:52

have a dog. We have a

41:55

beautiful mounted patrol unit right now,

41:57

which is, you know, really one

41:59

of. his pride and joys. So

42:01

he looked at me and he,

42:04

you know, he instructed the, you

42:06

know, the canine unit to begin

42:08

to look for a dog for me

42:10

in my step. And it's funny

42:13

more because the woman that,

42:15

you know, was charged with

42:17

that responsibility called me one

42:19

day a couple days after

42:21

that and said, Chief, I just

42:23

want to just be

42:25

realistic with you that sometimes

42:28

it can take anywhere between six

42:30

months to a year to find

42:32

the right dog right and I said well

42:34

Nina I'm fine I said I didn't

42:36

my message to this year if wasn't hey

42:38

we need a dog tomorrow you know I

42:41

just think we could use one and she

42:43

said okay so as long as we're on

42:45

the same page because I'm not going to

42:47

just get one just to get you one

42:50

I want to get you the right one you

42:52

know and I would say a week or two

42:54

later more she texting me a picture

42:56

of what is now Sierra and

42:58

said, I think this is your dog,

43:00

I just need to go back one

43:02

more time and spend a couple

43:05

more minutes with her until I'm

43:07

fully convinced that she would be

43:09

a good fit for you. And so

43:11

of course my heart starts racing

43:13

because now my, it went from

43:15

a concept more to reality. Yes,

43:17

right. I don't even know what

43:20

to buy. I don't know where

43:22

she's going to sleep, you know. And

43:24

sure enough, she went back down, I

43:26

think two days later. and said,

43:28

this is your dog. And I think

43:31

a couple days thereafter she, you

43:33

know, drove in the parking lot

43:35

of our office here where I'm sitting

43:37

and took, you know, what is now,

43:40

Sierra and her arms and walked

43:42

up the ramp and into the

43:44

door and the rest is kind

43:46

of history. Was she a puppy?

43:48

She was. Yeah, she was three

43:50

months old. Who trained her? Did

43:52

you train her? So our trainer

43:54

on staff helped me a great

43:56

deal. I owe a huge debt

43:58

of gratitude to her. and she

44:00

worked with me, you know, she

44:02

would come down maybe two or

44:04

three days a week, you know,

44:06

and work with me for an

44:08

hour at a time about, you

44:11

know, all different aspects of being

44:13

a new dog owner. But, you

44:15

know, a lot of it more

44:17

I was just, Sierra and I

44:19

spending every minute together of the

44:21

day and night and then having

44:23

her come in and, you know,

44:25

I would say Sierra's. One of

44:27

Sierra's best values is the camaraderie

44:29

and the love that she enjoys

44:31

being down in this office, right?

44:33

He walks in with me in

44:35

the morning and it's like she

44:37

takes the the temperature down, you

44:40

know, 100% in terms of, you

44:42

know, what she brings to the

44:44

office, to our staff, to just

44:46

everybody in general, you know. Do

44:48

I hear her in the background?

44:50

Yeah, she is. Sorry, I'm trying

44:52

to, yeah. I love it, no,

44:54

no, my dog is at my

44:56

feet. What is, I know you're

44:58

not a psychologist, but what was

45:00

the sort of science or evidence

45:02

base that compelled you also to

45:04

think this is a good idea

45:06

from a mental health perspective for

45:09

my team? Well, I think probably

45:11

the sheriff's division of animal therapy,

45:13

you know, that it does work,

45:15

like it can be impactful. You

45:17

know, there were nights more that

45:19

leading up to getting her that

45:21

I was a little worried. You

45:23

know, I might have some what

45:25

some might say some OCD qualities,

45:27

you know, and I don't like

45:29

to get out of my comfort

45:31

zone. But I think that myself

45:33

in the time of light that

45:35

what I was going through in

45:38

my life as well as the

45:40

challenges our staff were going through,

45:42

I thought this might be one

45:44

of the best remedies for everybody

45:46

involved. And I can't say enough

45:48

more about the impact, nor can

45:50

I over exaggerate. You know, last

45:52

night, my son goes to the

45:54

Long Middle High School, which is

45:56

a pretty affluent town here in

45:58

Western Mass, and... they had a

46:00

athletic night for all parents, you know,

46:02

of kids who play sports. And so

46:05

I worked in my office until quarter of

46:07

six and I drove to Long Middle

46:09

High. And you know, I have these moments where

46:11

it's like, should I bring her? Should I not?

46:13

You know, and I said, you know what? This

46:15

would be a very good training

46:18

exercise for, right? We're in an auditorium

46:20

where there's people that have to be

46:22

attentive to the speaker to the speaker.

46:24

And Morris, she was, she rose to

46:26

the occasion to the occasion to the

46:28

occasion, right. She greeted people

46:30

walking in, people were

46:33

coming right over her, and then

46:35

she laid at my feet

46:37

for the whole presentation, and

46:39

then upon the conclusion of

46:42

the meeting, she greeted

46:44

people on the way out. But

46:46

then I would say 12 hours

46:48

later, one of the things

46:50

more that our trainer Nina

46:52

emphasized to me is that you have

46:54

to, no matter how your days

46:57

going, Bobby. no matter what you're

46:59

dealing with. You have to take

47:01

time of your day for you and

47:04

Sierra to get out and go for

47:06

a walk and bond and train

47:08

together. And so every morning,

47:10

Mora, at like 10 to 1030,

47:12

Sierra and I take about

47:15

a mile walk from my office

47:17

down to the center of downtown

47:19

Springfield and back. And we walk

47:22

through an alleyway near a bus

47:24

station that is, you know, habitated by...

47:26

some people who are kind of

47:28

down and out on their luck,

47:31

right? Broken Marijuana, drinking,

47:33

and Sierra goes up and like licks

47:35

their face. And so I guess my

47:38

point is, at 6 o'clock last

47:40

night, she was greeting people in

47:42

Long Meadow, right, who are worried

47:44

about their athletes, right?

47:46

Their potential next Olympic

47:48

athlete or sports athlete.

47:50

And 12 hours later, she's

47:52

licking the face of a woman

47:55

who is drinking a nip. You

47:57

know and so her effect

47:59

no is No boundaries, right? It's just

48:01

Sierra, it's just Sierra. And that

48:03

makes me feel so good, you

48:05

know? And then two people on

48:07

our walk today more just, we

48:09

got, just got back and said,

48:11

you just made my day, right?

48:13

And coupled with, she's now become

48:15

like this downtown sensation, right? The

48:17

Starbucks has a bowl with her

48:19

name on it. Oh my God.

48:21

And then there was a guy

48:23

driving a city of Springfield trash

48:25

truck a few weeks ago. who

48:27

stopped and ran across the street,

48:30

I thought something was wrong. And

48:32

I said, what's up? And he

48:34

said, I watch you and your

48:36

dog every day. And I can't

48:38

believe how great this is. And

48:40

I said, thank you so much.

48:42

And he goes, I bought her

48:44

some treats, but they're in my

48:46

truck. Would you mind if I

48:48

ran back to my truck and

48:50

got him for you? And I

48:52

said, you bought my dog treats?

48:54

And he goes, yeah. I just

48:56

don't even, I can't begin to

48:58

tell you. She's really at her

49:00

best. in moments where, you know,

49:02

she can, you know, kind of

49:04

do her thing. And that sometimes

49:06

just means being Sierra. You know,

49:08

one of the other things that

49:10

you mentioned when we were talking

49:12

is that she's sort of part

49:14

of what you as a force

49:16

are trying to do to really

49:18

think more seriously about mental health

49:20

in your staff. Anything else you

49:22

want to share and how the

49:24

pandemic experience has changed maybe how

49:26

you think about? everyday mental health?

49:28

Well, yeah, I mean we had

49:30

an occurrence where maybe in the

49:32

last year or more, where we

49:35

had a woman come into our

49:37

lobby, who we evicted, and she

49:39

was talking about her property, you

49:41

know, and where it was, and

49:43

so and she was becoming somewhat

49:45

belligerent. I went out there because

49:47

my nobody else was in the

49:49

office, so I went out to

49:51

the lobby to try to talk

49:53

to her. So I sat down

49:55

with her. And she was explaining

49:57

to me her challenges. And at

49:59

one point, She said that she's

50:01

gonna walk out of our office

50:03

and take her life. And I put

50:05

my hands on her shoulder and

50:07

I said, no, you're not gonna go

50:10

out this door. And this was

50:12

before Sierra's arrival. And

50:14

so I sat her down and I

50:16

obviously turned to my staff and

50:18

said, why don't you call a

50:21

few of our deputies who are

50:23

in the downtown area to get

50:25

them over here as well as any

50:27

ambulance. And I spent

50:29

what seemed like an eternity

50:32

just talking to her

50:34

and listening to her story

50:36

to the extent that, you

50:38

know, finally the ambulance

50:41

arrived and as she was

50:43

getting on the stretcher, they

50:45

were putting the belts on

50:47

her and she said, before

50:49

you put these belts on,

50:51

do you mind if I give you

50:53

a heart? And I said, of course

50:56

you can give me a hug. You know,

50:58

they took her out to the ambulance. I

51:00

helped, I put my jacket on her

51:02

because it was raining and they took

51:04

her to the hospital and I've been

51:06

doing this for almost 19 years and

51:09

there are moments now and I say

51:11

this to people quite a bit. Usually

51:13

when you do a job for 19

51:15

years it should be getting easier, but

51:17

it's harder now than it ever has

51:20

been. Why? Because of the mental challenges,

51:22

Mara, because of people's behavior that

51:24

we sometimes don't really have an

51:26

answer for, right. That bothered me

51:29

and I came to my

51:31

office She had her car

51:33

in her parking lot and

51:35

I came to my office

51:37

Saturday and her car was

51:39

gone, but her phone number

51:41

was right on my desk

51:44

And I called her and she

51:46

picked up the phone. I told

51:48

her who it was and she

51:50

says you're calling me

51:53

on a Saturday? And I

51:55

said, you know You're the first person

51:57

that's ever just listened to me. And I

51:59

said, well, I'm not going anywhere. I've

52:01

got 18 years in, but I

52:03

don't plan on leaving. But you

52:06

know, more, Nick Kochi is our

52:08

sheriff, and he kind of sets

52:10

the tone, right? And he's got

52:12

the biggest heart of anybody I've

52:15

ever come into contact with. So

52:17

it's his vision and his style

52:19

that has kind of emanated down

52:21

upon our staff, where I think

52:23

we're the only sheriff's department, Mora,

52:26

in the Commonwealth. maybe the country

52:28

that has support services workers that

52:30

go out and try to engage

52:32

people on the cusp of being

52:35

displaced to talk to them about

52:37

how can we help? You have

52:39

any family? You have any plan?

52:41

You need a ride to court

52:43

to maybe see if you can

52:46

short this out? That layer is

52:48

one of the best things we've

52:50

ever done down here because Sometimes

52:52

more people that we're dealing with

52:55

think that if they just hide

52:57

under the kitchen table and don't

52:59

answer the door that their problem

53:01

will go away. And unfortunately that's

53:03

not the case, but denial can

53:06

be the saddest dynamic that we

53:08

come across. And so that's why,

53:10

you know, we have these two

53:12

people more that they knock on

53:15

neighbor's doors, right? Hey, do you

53:17

know anything about John? You know,

53:19

haven't seen him? Does he have

53:21

a brother we can call? Parents,

53:23

right? I feel like we're doing

53:26

something that goes above and beyond

53:28

what our statutory obligation is, right?

53:30

And that's the way Nick Kochi

53:32

wants it, coupled with, even people

53:35

that come in our lobby, right?

53:37

Or might be a husband that

53:39

finally gets up the mental fortitude

53:41

to finally file for divorce. And

53:43

he's coming in and you can

53:46

tell he's anxious, right? He's got

53:48

his papers and he's got his

53:50

wallet. And all of a sudden,

53:52

Sierra walks through the door. Right?

53:55

It's like doc dynamic just went

53:57

from a highly anxious tense moment

53:59

to this girl. who's got kind

54:01

of a funny personality too, right?

54:04

Everybody says, just kind of

54:06

takes the edge off, right?

54:08

And the exchange of the

54:10

money and the paperwork becomes

54:12

a secondary issue to just

54:14

having fun with a black lab

54:16

who just wants to go. And

54:18

she is worth all her weight and

54:21

gold during those moments.

54:23

When I think about how your officers

54:25

must feel. Nobody ever

54:27

wants to kick someone out of

54:30

their home. I mean that must

54:32

be a really ambivalent job

54:34

to have. Right. What tools

54:36

or leadership lessons or skills do

54:39

you try to give them to be

54:41

able to manage the ultimate

54:43

sort of pain that's at the

54:45

center of their work every day?

54:47

Well, I look for people that

54:50

can be assertive but empathetic.

54:52

That is a hard combination

54:54

to find. right? I can

54:56

find a hundred deputy sheriffs that

54:58

want to go kick a door

55:00

in and be robocop and I

55:03

can find social workers the challenges

55:05

can I can I find a

55:07

deputy sheriff that can embody both

55:09

of those qualities right because this

55:11

county has some very very dangerous

55:14

areas some days right more we

55:16

have to go to a fourth

55:18

floor apartment in the flats of

55:20

Hoyleo to then a retirement

55:23

community in Southwick. to evict

55:25

maybe a woman that is estranged

55:27

from her kids, right?

55:30

Imagine it over my career I've

55:32

had to call maybe children

55:34

of elderly people to

55:36

tell them that their mom or dad

55:38

is on the cusp of being

55:41

evicted and they say, I'm sorry to

55:43

hear that. I haven't talked to

55:45

my mother in 10 years, do

55:47

what you gotta do. And so it's

55:49

on the sheriff's department

55:51

to figure out. How to

55:54

solve the problem and sometimes there's

55:56

no book more to reach for

55:58

to say what do you? when you're evicting

56:01

a 72-year-old woman with no family?

56:03

And that's what keeps me up

56:05

at night sometimes, but again, that's

56:07

where Sierra kind of comes into

56:09

play and eases the stress and,

56:11

you know, where Nick Kochi would

56:13

say to me, Bobby, we're gonna,

56:15

we gotta figure this out. It

56:17

is a challenge, you're right, and

56:19

the challenge is to, again, have

56:22

a level of empathy. Last question.

56:24

Sure. My audience is mostly professional.

56:26

knowledge workers who, you know, sit

56:28

at desks, don't see this side

56:30

of life. Is there anything you

56:32

want them to think about differently?

56:34

It's easy for us to see

56:36

the police and have a lot

56:38

of judgments depending on who we

56:41

are. I mean, we're people, right?

56:43

And I think one thing Sierra

56:45

has done too, more in closing,

56:47

is that Sierra bridges relationships with

56:49

people downtown here. That without a

56:51

dog. I don't think they're really

56:53

coming over to say hi to

56:55

me And a guy yelled to

56:57

me today because he wears a

56:59

Lakers hat and of course I'm

57:02

a Celtics fan He's yelling across

57:04

the street for me and you

57:06

know, I'm gonna get you a

57:08

Lakers hat So I guess you

57:10

know, it's a very good question,

57:12

but you know one that I

57:14

think the public and I gotta

57:16

be honest with him or I

57:18

started wearing my uniform again in

57:21

recent months because I the uniform

57:23

goes well with Sierra I just

57:25

think it it projects well but

57:27

I never ever I haven't worn

57:29

my uniform in like 10 years

57:31

I've never been more proud to

57:33

wear this. Secondly my father always

57:35

tells the police locally here thank

57:37

you for your service and I

57:39

always thought he was kind of

57:42

weird because it you know he

57:44

does it all the time. I

57:46

can't believe the amount of people

57:48

that come up to me seeing

57:50

the same thing. I could be

57:52

in Starbucks, Cumberland Farms, right? Thank

57:54

you for your service. Your dog's

57:56

beautiful. Thank you. for what you

57:58

do. And on days that I

58:00

go home saying to myself, there's

58:03

got to be a better way

58:05

to make a living because this

58:07

job is draining. But then I

58:09

hear that and I see what

58:11

Sierra does to people in the

58:13

alleyway or like, you know, kids

58:15

going to school and it's like

58:17

I'm re-energized. It's like Sierra has

58:19

re-energized my career because of what

58:22

she has done for me, what

58:24

she's done for our department. and

58:26

what she does for people every

58:28

day that I never a year

58:30

ago said I would like I

58:32

said if you would have told

58:34

me I'd be walking through the

58:36

alleyway at the bus station with

58:38

a dog I would tell you're

58:40

crazy but here we are you

58:43

know and so I just your

58:45

listenership hopefully they will walk away

58:47

with a very human element to

58:49

law enforcement that is charged with

58:51

a very very antiquated statute you

58:53

know, that says the sheriff shall

58:55

serve process, but that you have

58:57

members of the steam down here

58:59

in Springfield that go to work

59:02

every day, you know, doing a

59:04

difficult job, but very professionally and

59:06

as empathetically as possible. That's it

59:08

for this episode of The Anxious

59:10

Achiever. The show is produced and

59:12

edited by Mary Dew with production

59:14

support and sound engineering by Nick

59:16

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