0:00

LinkedIn Presents. If

0:02

you're stuck in an endless

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cycle of people-pleasing

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self-doubt and perfectionism,

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now is the time to

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break the cycle. I'm Mora

0:14

Arons Mealy and this is

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the anxious achiever, the show

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that looks at the intersection

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of mental health and work,

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and asks, how can we

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do both better? Perfection.

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Something I've always struggled with. That

0:35

little voice inside my head that

0:37

looks at the work I've just

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spent painstaking hours on and says,

0:42

it's not good enough. No one

0:44

will care about reading this. This

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won't make an impact. This doesn't

0:48

make any sense. In times of

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stress, it can get even worse.

0:52

The need to be perfect. Sometimes.

0:55

Perfectionism feels like procrastination are actually

0:57

not doing a good job because

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the steak seems so high, right?

1:01

I can never get it right, so

1:03

why bother trying? Well, Susan Schmidt

1:06

Winchester returns to the

1:08

show today to talk

1:10

about what she's learned

1:12

about perfectionism in her

1:14

own life and the

1:16

lives of others. She

1:18

explains where some of

1:21

these people-pleasing self-douting ways

1:23

come from and shares

1:25

her patented actionable interventions

1:27

we can take to change the

1:29

ways we talk to ourselves and

1:32

the way we work. So,

1:34

Susan, you tell a story

1:36

about a boss a long time

1:38

ago who had a sign on

1:40

her desk that she could flip.

1:42

And one sign of it said,

1:44

Glinda the Good Witch, and the other

1:47

one said, Wicked Witch of the West.

1:49

It was a statue. Each side of the

1:51

statue, one side, if you looked at it,

1:53

it was Glinda the Good Witch. You flipped

1:55

it around, it was the Wicked Witch

1:57

of the West. I mean, it was

1:59

a dang. statue. I don't even know

2:01

what the words are. That's amazing. She

2:04

flip it based on her mood. What

2:06

a terrible leadership, you know, at. It's

2:08

just either you go in her office

2:10

and you relax or you're immediately on

2:13

pins and needles. And she took something

2:15

away from you in a really nasty

2:17

way. Yeah. Give us why that was

2:20

such a sort of crucible moment for

2:22

you and... in retrospect you realize it

2:24

relates to your your perfectionism. Right. Wow,

2:26

yes, this was a this is sort

2:29

of a startling wake-up moment in my

2:31

one of my early career jobs. I

2:33

don't want to say which company or

2:35

anything like that, but I had been

2:38

given a manager job so I was

2:40

a new manager at a team of

2:42

five people and one of the first

2:45

projects that we were asked to work

2:47

on was completely revamping the organization's performance

2:49

management system. And because I wanted to

2:51

prove myself to my new boss, which

2:54

was what I believed I needed to

2:56

do to gain her validation of me,

2:58

I, you know, did everything I could

3:01

to make this project a huge success.

3:03

I had some really talented people working

3:05

with me on it, and we had

3:07

completed the project within the time and

3:10

under the budget. And one day, she

3:12

called me into her office, and basically,

3:14

you know, I sat down. And she

3:16

said I want to let you know.

3:19

that your team has been awarded the

3:21

President's Award of Excellence, which was a

3:23

big deal, very prestigious in this organization.

3:26

And I knew it came with a

3:28

cash award. I didn't know how much

3:30

money it was, but I knew there

3:32

was money involved. And I had a

3:35

ton of student loans at the time,

3:37

so it's really a feeling. And she

3:39

proceeded to tell me that, however, she

3:42

said, I'm not going to give you

3:44

the award. And I just remember thinking,

3:46

what? I was mystified. And She was,

3:48

you could tell her energy was off,

3:51

she... The Wicked Witch was looking at

3:53

me. She seemed angry. There was just

3:55

an angry edge about her. And I

3:57

said, well, I don't understand why can

4:00

you help me understand. And she wouldn't

4:02

give me an explanation. I was the

4:04

leader of the team. And I remember

4:07

her just basically waving me off, you

4:09

know, just basically, don't, we're done. You

4:11

know, so I left her office, really

4:13

confused. And I didn't think it was

4:16

fair. I mean, I had a sense

4:18

of what's fair and what's not fair,

4:20

so. Not just you, but for your

4:23

team. Well, yeah, but my team was

4:25

getting the award, I wasn't gonna get

4:27

it. It was just you. I was

4:29

the only one who wasn't getting the

4:32

award. Oh. Yes, the team was gonna

4:34

get the award, they were all gonna

4:36

get the cash award, not me. And

4:38

so I walked out of her office

4:41

like, well, well, that's weird, what's going

4:43

on. So as I. So as I.

4:45

You know, the next day I thought,

4:48

well, I've got to find out what's

4:50

wrong. What did I do wrong? Because,

4:52

you know, as perfectionist, something must be

4:54

wrong. I must have done something wrong.

4:57

Otherwise, why would I not be getting

4:59

this recognition that the rest of the

5:01

team is? So I remember I went

5:04

into her boss's office. Now, looking back

5:06

on that moment, I probably would have

5:08

handled it differently today, knowing how the

5:10

political dynamics worked in companies. probably done

5:13

this. I might have done it a

5:15

different way, but I went into his

5:17

office and I just basically said I

5:19

don't understand why I'm not getting the

5:22

award. He had no idea. I have

5:24

no idea. I'll have to look into

5:26

it. Well, within a short amount of

5:29

time, I get called back into my

5:31

boss's office. And it was really clear

5:33

she was very angry. And I sat

5:35

down and as soon as I sat

5:38

down in the wooden chair, she started

5:40

screaming, yelling, full blown rage. How dare

5:42

you, who do you think you are?

5:45

How do you, who do you think

5:47

you are questioning my decision? And I

5:49

remember, I remember it if it was

5:51

yesterday, my whole body was shaking. I

5:54

felt frozen. Talk about fight, flight, and

5:56

freeze. I was frozen with hot tears.

5:58

streaming down my

6:00

face, feeling like I

6:03

deserve this. I clearly screwed up. I

6:05

did something wrong. She's right. How

6:07

dare I go to her boss? And,

6:10

you know, in that moment, I

6:12

didn't think about it then, but now

6:14

it really was like that moment when

6:17

I was afraid of my dad's yelling

6:19

and screaming his rage, which was unpredictable in

6:21

the family system. And my sister and

6:23

I would want to run away. We'd

6:25

run upstairs to the bedroom and get

6:27

underneath the bed with our little dog

6:29

Dodger as we could hear him down

6:31

there screaming at my mom. And that's

6:33

how I felt. I felt frozen, afraid,

6:36

frightened. What's happening here? Everything just stood

6:38

still. And

6:40

I don't even remember how it

6:42

ended, but I walked out of her

6:44

office feeling obliterated that I was going

6:46

to have to quit, which I

6:48

did within probably three months. I resigned,

6:51

went back to a different company. And,

6:55

you know, in that moment, I

6:57

was completely unconscious to the effects of

6:59

my experiences as a little girl

7:01

growing up in my family system, you

7:03

know, because when she was yelling

7:05

and screaming, I felt like I deserved

7:07

it. I accreted it. I was

7:09

bad and clearly not good enough. I

7:12

had disappointed her. I

7:14

had enraged her. Never dawned on me

7:16

that her behavior was totally out

7:18

of line for a vice president in

7:21

a very prestigious organization. I

7:23

blamed myself and beat myself

7:25

up that I had failed. You

7:27

know, I think that's the

7:30

other thing about being a perfectionist

7:32

is the fear of failure

7:34

is immense because if we fail,

7:36

if we have disappointed someone,

7:38

if we had made someone angry,

7:40

then it's our fault and it

7:42

just validates our own sense of

7:44

our beliefs about ourselves that we're

7:46

not good enough. And

7:48

because us perfectionists associate

7:50

so much value to the

7:53

task that if the task isn't

7:55

going well, that means that

7:57

we're not enough. And so the

7:59

perfectionism manifests in

8:01

a way where we're constantly feeling

8:03

on eggshells, we constantly feel like

8:06

we have to prove ourselves. And,

8:08

you know, if you look at

8:10

that cumulative behavior over a lifetime

8:13

of a career, it's not surprising

8:15

that so many people have health

8:17

issues turned to alcohol like I

8:20

did, shopping, gambling, porn, whatever, to

8:22

try to avoid all those fears

8:25

of not being enough. My

8:27

first bumper car moment. After

8:30

that experience, did you go and

8:32

repeat the behavior at your next

8:34

job? Absolutely. I mean, that's right.

8:36

You want to be like, no, I

8:39

never did. But you went and repeated.

8:41

No, because I was unconscious to how

8:43

much my past was dictating my

8:45

behavior at work. I was completely

8:47

unaware of my belief system

8:49

around believing that everybody else got

8:51

to decide if I was good

8:54

enough. My beliefs about myself.

8:56

my interpretations of other

8:58

people, particularly those in authority,

9:00

especially if they were displeased

9:03

about something, as well as

9:05

my own reactions and responses,

9:07

which manifested as being a people-blazer

9:09

and a perfectionist,

9:11

which, as you and I both

9:13

know, in the corporate world, those

9:16

behaviors are wellly rewarded because people

9:18

will, you know, do everything they

9:20

can to overachieve. and the hopes

9:23

of securing that external validation,

9:25

not realizing that actually, that's

9:28

my job. I'm the one that

9:30

gets to decide my value. It's

9:32

not dependent on other people. But

9:34

yes, those patterns showed up for

9:36

me for 30 in my 36 years.

9:39

It's embarrassing to say that, but

9:41

it's true. You know, I don't

9:43

really like admitting that, but it

9:45

fueled my success. You know, the

9:48

past definitely fueled my success, but

9:50

it comes at a cost.

9:52

physically, emotionally, mentally, your relationship

9:54

with other people, your relationship

9:56

with yourself. There's so many

9:59

costs associated. with living a life

10:01

and a career that way. You

10:03

know, it's funny, I'm going through

10:05

this so much now, I'm writing

10:07

a new book for leaders who

10:10

are, let's say, neuro-distinct. Leaders who

10:12

have ADHD or have bipolar like

10:14

me or have chronic anxiety or

10:16

on the autism spectrum who have

10:18

very different brains but are very,

10:20

you know, ambitious professionals. This is

10:23

sort of the next step from

10:25

the anxious achiever from all the

10:27

work I did talking to people.

10:29

And... I am so scared of

10:31

my own shadow when it comes

10:33

to this book. I'm scared of

10:35

being shamed. I'm scared of being

10:38

told that I have no reason.

10:40

How dare I write this book?

10:42

My book and Martha Finney, my

10:44

co-author, knows us. It almost didn't

10:46

get published because I was afraid.

10:48

I was afraid of criticism. I

10:51

was afraid of family members being

10:53

really angry with me because of

10:55

the story about my dad that

10:57

I share. And I told Martha.

10:59

we're not publishing. And Martha, thank

11:01

God for Martha, she's the woman

11:03

of brilliant ideas. She recommended I

11:06

spend some time with a woman

11:08

named Salina Costa, who has become

11:10

my coach. She's so good. And

11:12

Saline had a New Year's Day

11:14

special to do a one-on-one 90-minute

11:16

intensive with her. And it was

11:19

about your story, but I really

11:21

had no idea what I was

11:23

getting myself into. But what I

11:25

will say was the essence of

11:27

that session that she helped me

11:29

to clarify. was while I had

11:31

a lot of fear of personal

11:34

and professional judgment, my purpose for

11:36

writing the book, my why, was

11:38

way bigger than my fear. And

11:40

we talked through a couple of

11:42

the things that I was most

11:44

worried about and just came up

11:47

with a plan. Okay, so if

11:49

this happened, what would you do?

11:51

But the biggest piece, the biggest

11:53

breakthrough was the realization that my

11:55

why for writing healing at work

11:57

was to really wake people up.

12:00

people like me who are maybe

12:02

well-versed. successful in their career, but

12:04

exhausted and constantly on the burnout

12:06

spectrum, to understand that a lot

12:08

of that is fueled from our

12:10

past and that there are ways

12:12

that, and I'll talk about the

12:15

transformation process in a minute and

12:17

how to leverage the workplace to

12:19

do that, but we don't have

12:21

to live what I eventually called

12:23

the unconscious wounded career path for

12:25

our whole lives. Instead, we can

12:28

step onto the conscious healing career

12:30

path. which is the process of

12:32

the transformation. So I just wanted

12:34

to point that out that you

12:36

may be feeling like, you know,

12:38

you should be writing this book,

12:40

but your fear, I'm sure, is

12:43

much smaller than your reason for

12:45

wanting to write it. Sorry, that

12:47

baby cried. Oh. You know, I

12:49

just think so many of us

12:51

are still looking for that pat

12:53

on the head. Yep. And

12:57

the thing that I have learned

12:59

in my sort of, I call

13:01

it my three years in the

13:03

wilderness since I sold my company,

13:05

you know, when you have a

13:07

job or you have a company

13:09

that is at a certain level

13:12

that you can sort of show

13:14

up and run it, you can

13:16

enact your wounded patterns, but they're

13:18

comfortable, their habits. Right? How many

13:20

days did you show up at

13:22

work and do the same old?

13:24

And you just were like, that's

13:27

just how life is. Yeah, suck

13:29

it up. Suck it up, but

13:31

when you disrupt that, so with

13:33

me, I sold my company, it

13:35

ended badly, I got fired a

13:37

year in from my earn out,

13:39

I was on my own, that

13:42

was in May of 2022. I've

13:44

been trying to heal from the

13:46

unconscious wounded path, but also sort

13:48

of trying to break through on

13:50

some really new stuff, and so

13:52

it feels really scary. It can

13:55

be so scary at times of

13:57

like, who said this was a

13:59

good idea? Yeah,

14:01

I completely understand that. I really can relate and

14:03

I really appreciate your vulnerability in sharing the emotion

14:06

behind some of the thinking and You know, it's

14:08

just one of the things about us You know

14:10

as perfectionists is that we do keep pushing forward

14:12

and You're a woman of with a great desire

14:14

to help support other people to have a better

14:17

life and a better experience than their careers and

14:19

their personal lives. And your purpose for wanting to

14:21

write it, I can hear it when you're talking

14:23

about it, how much it means to you, how

14:25

much it personally connects with your own story. And

14:28

I believe that's a gift from God, that he's

14:30

guiding us to take the risks, to break through

14:32

our fears. to be courageous and to stand in

14:34

whatever it is that we are creating. And I'm

14:37

always really clear with people. I'm not a mental

14:39

health expert. I'm not a therapist or anything like

14:41

that. But I am a career and workplace expert

14:43

and I have a lot of experience of working

14:45

with very successful achieving overachieving perfectionists. And you know,

14:48

I've worked with a lot of very amazingly talented

14:50

gifted people. They're extremely complex over my 36-year career.

14:52

So it gives me an insight that a lot

14:54

of people don't have just like you with the

14:56

work that you're doing and the investment you've made

14:59

in yourself to become certified in the whole world

15:01

of trauma and enabling what I think is the

15:03

beginning of a major movement to help bring this

15:05

level of consciousness into companies, into leaders so that

15:07

they understand that there is an even better way

15:10

to lead our companies and our cultures going forward.

15:12

It doesn't have to be the way it's been

15:14

for so many years that facilitates and fuels those

15:16

of us that come from these paths with these

15:18

unconscious unhealthy patterns really. So how do we get

15:21

on the path? Well, I think the first step

15:23

is just appreciating that, you know, we've endured and

15:25

overcome a lot of things. And again, you know,

15:27

it's hard to think about managing a change in

15:29

a transformation with this because our perfectionism has fueled

15:32

so much of our success and, you know, both

15:34

career wise as well as financially, etc. etc. However,

15:36

I think that the workplace, and this is the

15:38

beauty of healing at workbook book that Martha and

15:40

I wrote, is that we can actually use the

15:43

workplace as our own laboratory for emotional healing. And

15:45

people always like, what are you talking about? Usually

15:47

the workplace is an origin of stress, not a

15:49

place of healing, but hear me out because it's

15:51

really powerful and it really works. In those moments

15:54

when we get emotionally upset at work, when someone

15:56

has wound us up, you know, some people call

15:58

it being triggered or hooked or activated. Those are

16:00

the moments that usually send this into this visual

16:02

I have, it's almost like a spiral into a

16:05

pit of painful emotion. My pit of painful emotion

16:07

was a lot of anxiety, worry, fear, you know,

16:09

it was just this constant rumination of what did

16:11

I do right or wrong today, and usually it

16:13

was what did you do wrong. You know, so

16:16

these things happen all the time, the workplace is

16:18

full of what Martha and I call bumper car

16:20

moments. when we either crash into somebody, they crash

16:22

into us, and sometimes we don't even realize that

16:24

we're causing these effects on one another. The way

16:27

to describe it in the book is that each

16:29

day we go into work we're bringing our today

16:31

adult professional self-reality, as well as our child past

16:33

reality. So we're bringing kind of all that with

16:35

us, a lot of it's unconscious, and every other

16:38

single person we're working with is doing the same

16:40

thing. So we're constantly colliding into one another like

16:42

bumper cars at the fair. And rather than letting

16:44

those moments sort of overtake us, keeping us spinning

16:46

in that fight, polite, and freeze, when we start

16:49

to look at them as,

16:51

oh, that's a bumper car

16:53

moment. I just crashed

16:55

into my boss or, you

16:57

know, this person just

17:00

said something to me in

17:02

a meeting and I

17:04

feel like they've crashed into

17:06

me and I've gotten

17:08

upset because now I suddenly

17:11

feel small or stupid

17:13

or whatever it is. Those

17:15

are the moments of

17:17

the greatest opportunity to start

17:19

de -programming and rewiring the

17:22

neural pathways in our

17:24

brain because most of the

17:26

time we just go

17:28

into the state of emotional

17:30

pain. But actually if

17:33

we could say, okay, that's

17:35

a bumper car moment.

17:37

What's going on right now?

17:39

This is the difference

17:41

between staying on the unconscious

17:44

wounded path where I

17:46

felt like I was spiraling

17:48

down every single day,

17:50

every night doing my own

17:52

little performance review of

17:55

myself and it never was

17:57

going well. And rather

17:59

than going into that pit,

18:01

and actually this is

18:03

terrible, but I used to

18:06

name my, I didn't

18:08

call them bumper car moments

18:10

back then, but it

18:12

was either an IOD, an

18:15

issue of the day.

18:17

So I go home and

18:19

ruminate for a day,

18:21

but then I'd be okay.

18:23

Where an IOW was,

18:26

it was an issue, a

18:28

bumper car moment that

18:30

actually affected me for an

18:32

entire week. IOM was

18:34

like the whole month I

18:37

was worried about it,

18:39

stressed about it. And then

18:41

the IOC was an

18:43

issue of a career where

18:45

I thought I was

18:48

going to get fired. I

18:50

mean, I named my

18:52

triggers. Yeah. How triggered am

18:54

I? How emotionally charged

18:56

has this made me go?

18:59

And, you know, it

19:01

doesn't have to be that

19:03

way. That's the unconscious

19:05

wounded career path. Instead, as

19:07

soon as a bumper

19:10

car moment happens, you go,

19:12

okay, step number one,

19:14

this is my very simple

19:16

rapid power reclaim. So

19:18

how you reclaim your moment?

19:21

And step number one

19:23

is you have to create

19:25

choice. And what I

19:27

mean by that is that

19:29

if you don't kind

19:32

of catch yourself and go,

19:34

I'm not going to

19:36

spiral into this pit of

19:38

painful emotions today, I

19:40

am instead going to create

19:43

choice. And the biggest

19:45

way we can create choice

19:47

is we have to

19:49

be respectful of what's going

19:51

on in our body.

19:54

Our body is feeling all

19:56

that energy of feeling

19:58

whatever, not good enough, stupid.

20:00

I screwed up, they're going to hate me, I'm

20:02

going to get fired. But when we stay stuck

20:05

in that, we have no choice. We just

20:07

go into this spiral, you know, motion

20:09

downward, and then like me, you know,

20:11

Chardonnay was my best friend, I'd buy

20:13

a bottle of Chardonnay, basically every other

20:16

night, and use that to take the

20:18

edge off all those painful emotions. Creating

20:20

choice is recognizing that your body,

20:22

you know the book, the body

20:24

keeps a score, which talks about

20:26

how things that happened to us

20:28

a long time ago, a long

20:30

time ago. that cause strong emotional

20:32

responses in our system, our nervous

20:34

system, in our brain, are still

20:36

part of who we are, and

20:39

that the part of the brain,

20:41

the emotional part of the brain,

20:43

which is the fight-cliter-fries place, the

20:45

amygdala, is the storage of memories

20:47

of emotions, but it has no memory

20:49

of the time. It doesn't acknowledge that,

20:51

oh, a newer five years old, your

20:53

dad was screaming at you. It doesn't

20:55

store that, but it just stores, oh,

20:58

someone's mad at you or you perceive

21:00

them to be mad. And therefore, you

21:02

need to go into fight, flight, or

21:04

freeze. And so to create choice, it's

21:06

moving the energy out. And there's lots

21:09

of practices, the somatic practices.

21:11

I like just, you know, my

21:13

coach, Lina Costa, taught me sound, movement,

21:15

and breath. And it could be

21:17

as simple as screaming into a

21:19

pillow just to get the energy of

21:22

being upset out of being upset

21:24

out of my body. Like, oh,

21:26

okay, now actually I'm able to

21:28

move to step number two, which

21:31

requires the prefrontal cortex to become

21:33

activated, which is that center of

21:35

the brain that is the executive

21:37

decision-making problem-solver. When you're stuck

21:39

in that adrenaline of emotional

21:41

turmoil, you can't get into a

21:44

state of how do I make good

21:46

decisions about how I respond. So that's

21:48

creating choice is getting there. Step two

21:50

then is, okay, what am I gonna

21:52

do to do to elevate my action?

21:54

I am not going to go into

21:56

people-pleasing tap dancing now. I am going

21:58

to do something differently. An elevated action

22:00

might be, you know, I'm going to go

22:02

talk to my boss to clarify the

22:05

expectations for this project because as

22:07

a perfectionist, I'm thinking I ought to

22:09

write a 50-page report, and maybe for

22:11

a one-page summary. You know, so you

22:13

take an elevated higher functioning adult step

22:16

to elevate your action rather than going

22:18

into the automatic unconscious fit of pain.

22:20

I just want to zero in on

22:22

this for a second because I think

22:24

this is the most important part, right,

22:26

right, is to sort of unhook the

22:29

habit. Yeah. You know, we all know,

22:31

especially those of us who are anxious

22:33

achievers, we get into that perfection, this

22:35

mode, we're impulsive, the anxious part

22:38

of our brain takes over, and

22:40

the anxious part of our brain is

22:42

very efficient. Very efficient, it's very focused,

22:44

it will get the job done, but

22:46

it will do a job that may

22:49

not be the assignment. Correct. Or an

22:51

expectation, and it's for the expectation. We

22:53

always overthink it. You know, I remember

22:55

one time, my CEO at Rockwell said,

22:58

Susan, I would really like to know

23:00

how many hours per year do we

23:02

give people training or development? And all

23:04

of a sudden my brain went into

23:06

what? We had no, we had SAP,

23:08

but it only captures some of the

23:10

data. And in my head, I had

23:12

this four-month project already built in my,

23:14

I'm going to have to call every

23:16

ETRO leader around the world. They're going

23:18

to have to do a survey of

23:20

all their managers because managers sometimes do

23:22

things we don't know about. And I

23:25

was overwhelmed and like near tears that

23:27

I was going to be able to

23:29

deliver this for my boss. And all

23:31

I did was, and I didn't realize

23:33

it then, but I did take an

23:35

elevated action even though I was pretty

23:37

activated that there's no way I

23:39

can do this. I'm never going to

23:41

meet his expectations. I went back to

23:43

him and I said, okay, before I

23:45

start working on this project, first of

23:47

all, what do you need it for?

23:50

No, I'd really like to have a

23:52

data point in case I get asked

23:54

this question in an all-employee meeting. Oh,

23:56

okay. And I basically said, look, there's two

23:58

different paths I can take here. You know, we

24:00

don't have a system that captures all

24:02

this. So I could go about a

24:04

very in-depth analysis that's going to take

24:06

a lot of time and will require

24:08

HR support from all over the world.

24:10

I gave him a whole view of what

24:12

it was going to take. Or I

24:14

could talk to a few key HR

24:16

leaders running big groups and get their

24:18

input about it and then come back

24:21

to you with an educated estimate and

24:23

send you an email. He said, oh,

24:25

the second's fine, right? So we create

24:27

these, you know. images that we have

24:29

to give them the very best product.

24:31

It's got to be 100% accurate. It's

24:33

got to be validated around the world.

24:35

Well, actually, he just needed to have

24:37

a general answer in case it ever

24:39

came up in an employee meeting. But

24:41

that, again, it's like, okay, that's an

24:43

elevated action. Go clarify or go

24:45

check an assumption out with somebody. You

24:48

know, in that meeting, you looked at

24:50

me, you know, the impact was it

24:52

felt disapproving, but I'm not sure what

24:54

you intended you intended. Oh, well, no,

24:57

actually, I didn't even realize I

24:59

looked at you that way. You know,

25:01

we often misread and misassume all kinds

25:03

of things. Right, and those of us who

25:05

show up basically as pin cushions every day

25:08

to be stabbed. Sure. I mean... It's just

25:10

like, stab me. Oh, what are you talking

25:12

about? I didn't even notice, you know? I

25:14

know, I know, I... But it's just re-listening

25:16

to our book on Audible, because

25:18

I haven't listened to it for

25:20

a while for a minute. There's

25:22

one statement in there where it

25:24

says something to the effect of,

25:26

we are basically recruiting different people

25:28

in our workplace unconsciously to be

25:31

a part of our own play.

25:33

And they don't even know they're being

25:35

recruited. They didn't even know that they've,

25:37

you know, quote, activated our emotional response,

25:39

causing us to feel a lot of

25:42

stress. You know, so this idea of,

25:44

you know, I had no idea. It

25:46

was recruiting all these people into my

25:48

story of, I'm not good enough. They

25:50

actually had no idea. You know?

25:53

Don't you worry about their own?

25:55

They are. I know. It's absolutely

25:57

true. It's just, it's so fast.

26:00

all of the stories we make

26:02

up. One of the other things

26:04

in the book that I was

26:06

reminded of as I listened to

26:08

it is this whole idea is

26:10

the next time you feel emotionally

26:12

triggered. This is an elevated action

26:14

by the way. Ask yourself, am

26:16

I sure? Am I sure? Am

26:18

I my boss is angry with

26:20

me? Or maybe he's or she's

26:22

just having a bad day. That's

26:24

another rather than immediately spiraling onto

26:26

the unconscious wounded path into misery.

26:28

Like, oh, well, you know, am

26:30

I sure that my colleagues intentionally

26:32

left me out of a You

26:34

know, maybe they thought that it

26:36

was unnecessary for me to attend,

26:38

maybe I'll go check that out.

26:40

And you start elevating your action

26:42

and you start to release, you

26:44

know, the hooks of the desire

26:46

to have, you know, have this

26:48

need for everybody to validate us.

26:51

I mean, I have a similar

26:53

framework, which is notice name and

26:55

understand your anxiety. It's like noticing

26:57

it. Yes. I'm getting that feeling

26:59

again. I'm making the six-month plan

27:01

in my head. Name it. I

27:03

love that. I love it. I'm

27:05

anxious. I'm doing it. I'm being

27:07

and then understand it, which is

27:09

the twofold, which is like, this

27:11

is something I do. Yep. Work

27:13

on it in therapy, like go

27:15

deep. But also to understand is

27:17

like, understand the assignment. Like, exactly.

27:19

Yeah. And then step three of

27:21

the transformation is celebrate and integrate.

27:23

When we actually. change what we

27:25

do. We elevate our action rather

27:27

than flying into that pit of

27:29

misery. Then it's important to take

27:31

time out to celebrate it. And

27:33

it can be as simple as

27:35

I remember one time I had

27:37

elevated my action preparing for a

27:39

big strategy review meeting and I

27:42

was really proud of myself and

27:44

so I just went outdoors in

27:46

the sun. It was the summer

27:48

day, it was June, there was

27:50

a beautiful blue sky. And I

27:52

just stood there and breathed and

27:54

I felt the breeze on my

27:56

face and I could hear the

27:58

birds chirping and I felt really

28:00

proud of myself. And when we

28:02

celebrate, it's actually bringing forward application

28:04

of all the positive psychology research

28:06

that says when we focus on

28:08

positive things, it improves the quality

28:10

of our life and actually decreases

28:12

depression. And the act of celebrating

28:14

is also a reinforcement to our

28:16

brain to start rewiring those neural

28:18

pathways, so we aren't constantly sliding

28:20

down that old unconscious path. the

28:22

more we create choice, elevate action,

28:24

and then celebrate, the more we

28:26

begin to integrate a new way

28:28

of experiencing ourselves in the workplaces,

28:30

and that repetition of integrating through

28:33

celebration is such a powerful element

28:35

of changing our natural nervous system

28:37

response rate to whatever's going on

28:39

to us around us at work.

28:41

And it's simple. And honestly, the

28:43

three-step process can be quick. It

28:45

can be, you know, You know,

28:47

you talked about the physiological symptoms

28:49

are the first indicator that you're

28:51

in the middle of the bumper

28:53

car moment. That's your tell. That's

28:55

your tell. It feels like an

28:57

elephant sitting on my chest and

28:59

I can't breathe. And then like,

29:01

okay, oh, okay, I'm having a

29:03

moment, a bumper car moment. What

29:05

do I got to do about

29:07

it? I got to get that

29:09

out of my body. I'm going

29:11

to elevate my action and then

29:13

I'm going to celebrate that and

29:15

integrate it integrated into my identity.

29:17

And it integrated into my identity.

29:19

but I spend a lot less

29:21

time in the valley of misery

29:24

than I used to. Now it's

29:26

much more like, okay, I can

29:28

eliminate, well I'm officially retired from

29:30

corporate now, I can eliminate issue

29:32

of a career, and you know,

29:34

so the issue of the day,

29:36

I don't even use that language

29:38

anymore. It's like, oh, it's an

29:40

opportunity. I just got trigger, it's

29:42

an opportunity for me to practice

29:44

calming this part of my brain

29:46

so that I don't keep having

29:48

these automatic unconscious responses that are

29:50

uncomfortable that upset me. Will

29:53

AI improve our lives or exterminate

29:55

the species? What would it take

29:57

to abolish pop? Are you eating

29:59

enough fermented foods? These are some

30:01

of the questions we've tackled recently

30:03

on the next big idea. I'm

30:05

Rufus Griskem and every week I

30:07

sit down with the world's leading

30:09

thinkers for in-depth conversations that will

30:11

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30:13

smarter. Follow the next big idea

30:15

wherever you get your podcasts. pretty

30:17

experienced one by this point. I

30:19

have been practicing. This happened to

30:21

me the other day where I

30:23

get very triggered and not just

30:25

triggered because sometimes, you know, I

30:27

don't want to minimize this, like

30:29

sometimes when we're triggered, it is

30:31

a hint that there is something

30:33

deeper. It's not always, oh, this

30:35

is an old childhood pattern, let's

30:37

move on. I was very upset

30:39

the other day. I got some

30:41

feedback on my book idea that

30:43

was real. So yes, I was

30:45

triggered, all of my issues that

30:47

we talked about before at an

30:49

11, but there was a real

30:51

thorny thing underneath it, which is

30:53

like, Mora, you have to solve

30:55

this. You have to, so you

30:57

have to work through the anxiety

30:59

that's blocking the solution so you

31:01

can get to a clear head,

31:03

elevate action. And the only way

31:05

through... was to actually sit and

31:07

cry and I had like a

31:09

not a panic attack but I

31:11

had an anxiety attack yeah and

31:13

have the sort of strength to

31:15

sort of be like you have

31:17

to feel this you're not going

31:19

to move through this yep that's

31:21

creating choice that's right right it's

31:23

recognizing the body needs to process

31:25

this emotional impact and for you

31:27

it's anxiety is definitely one of

31:29

mine as well for sure yeah

31:31

and then when you did and

31:33

you probably felt better Well, I

31:35

felt like I had the energy

31:37

to think about the problem. Yes.

31:39

Yep. And I had a big

31:41

unlock, actually. I really sort of...

31:43

It worked for me, it doesn't

31:45

always work, you know, I think,

31:47

I think part of, part of

31:49

when these little triggers get their

31:51

hooks in us, we, we may

31:54

have some learned helplessness around it.

31:56

And so we become that five-year-old

31:58

who can't help herself anymore. Because

32:00

when you're five, you can't say,

32:02

daddy, stop. No, no, that's true.

32:04

That's true. I am just smiling

32:06

because I just finished another book,

32:08

I've listened to it twice, another

32:10

recommendation from my coach. And actually

32:12

she said something to me one

32:14

day that was like, what? The

32:16

book is called Exextential Kink. And

32:18

the author's first name is Carolyn,

32:20

I'm not going to remember her

32:22

last name right now. But one

32:24

day I was in a coaching

32:26

session and I was anxious about

32:28

something and my coach said, do

32:30

you know that you're addicted to

32:32

anxiety? I never thought of that.

32:34

I never thought about that. What

32:36

do you mean addicted to it?

32:38

And she shared this book with

32:40

me and it's fascinating because what

32:42

it basically says, and you started

32:44

getting at it with your comment

32:46

a minute ago about your anxiety

32:48

attack, is that there are certain

32:50

states that become very familiar to

32:52

us. And a lot of it's

32:54

through the things that we dealt

32:56

with where we were growing up,

32:58

but what the authors really saying

33:00

is that there is an element

33:02

of that state. that actually unconsciously

33:04

you highly value because it's giving

33:06

you something. It's giving you benefits.

33:08

In your case, it was, well,

33:10

you know, if I have to

33:12

work through this problem, I have

33:14

to be accountable. I have to

33:16

solve it. Nobody else is going

33:18

to solve it for me. And

33:20

so staying in a state of

33:22

anxiety keeps you from that clarity

33:24

of what do I need to

33:26

do to be able to move

33:28

through this. And the author talks

33:30

about having is wanting. So whatever

33:32

you're experiencing you actually want. And

33:34

until you get to that deeper

33:36

level of understanding the unconscious positives

33:38

that you're getting from some of

33:40

these stressful emotional states... Only then

33:42

are you able to start to

33:44

appreciate and start to relax and

33:46

being able to let go of

33:48

some of those behaviors. I mean,

33:50

I think anxiety is a huge

33:52

mother of invention for a lot

33:54

of us and we do use

33:56

it constructively even though it feels

33:58

terrible. Like, you know, to your

34:00

point as a lifelong perfectionist, you

34:03

know, perfectionism is anxiety. You can

34:05

make, you can move mountains. You

34:07

can. There's no question about it.

34:09

But there's also a cost. There's

34:11

a huge cost. But what this

34:13

author is saying is that actually

34:15

there's, I'm not articulating as well

34:17

as I'd like to, but there's

34:19

this essence of the cost that

34:21

we also get benefit from. The

34:23

things that I found myself saying

34:25

more often that I actually realized

34:27

was, well I'm confused. I'm confused.

34:29

Okay, well what is it about

34:31

confusion? What are you getting from

34:33

confusion? What do you, you know,

34:35

so basically it was... Well, if

34:37

I'm confused, then it's somebody else's

34:39

fault. You know, I can put

34:41

the accountability on the other person

34:43

rather than me taking accountability. You

34:45

know, so I'm like, oh, I

34:47

never even thought about that. Now

34:49

I'm like, I'm never saying I'm

34:51

confused again. I love that. It's

34:53

really, it's like a completely different

34:55

way of thinking about yourself in

34:57

the world and your relationship with

34:59

the world. And so good, I'll

35:01

probably listen to it a third

35:03

time. I mean, I mean, it's

35:05

really interesting. you know, I mean,

35:07

there's some kink related to some

35:09

of the messaging, but the essence

35:11

of what she's talking about, I

35:13

just think is really, it was

35:15

really valuable to me to think

35:17

about. She's got several different exercises.

35:19

I'm not going to do it

35:21

justice, but, you know, so if

35:23

there's something you don't like, you

35:25

have to start asking yourself, well,

35:27

what am I getting from this?

35:29

And I was driving myself to

35:31

a horse show in the last

35:33

couple of weekends and I started

35:35

thinking about my riding. I'm like,

35:37

you know, I get so mad

35:39

at myself when I make a

35:41

mistake in the ring. I just

35:43

want to beat myself up and

35:45

judge myself. And so I'm driving

35:47

along and I'm sort of mimicking

35:49

some of her language. but it

35:51

was like, I love screwing up

35:53

in the Horsham ring. I love

35:55

it because then I'm not going

35:57

to win and therefore people will

35:59

still like me and they won't

36:01

think I'm better than them. I

36:03

mean I was going into this

36:05

whole thing about what am I

36:07

getting from all this beating myself?

36:10

Well you know what if I'm

36:12

beat myself up and nobody else

36:14

feels like they have to beat

36:16

myself up so I'm avoiding being

36:18

beaten up by other people. Yes,

36:20

right because because when I'm stuck.

36:22

One of the things that I

36:24

wrote in the Anxious Achiever, which

36:26

is a line that I really

36:28

like, is that perfectionism is brittle.

36:30

Oh, yeah. It is rigid. And

36:32

we all know that growth and

36:34

leadership is flexible. It's expansive. Perfectionism

36:36

is that narrow. Well, I'm gonna

36:38

screw up, but as long as

36:40

I do it X, Y, and

36:42

Z. You know, I know what

36:44

will happen, right? And people will

36:46

think people will like me and

36:48

it'll all be okay. It's that

36:50

rigidness, right, versus the like, I

36:52

don't know, maybe I'll screw up,

36:54

maybe people will hate me. But

36:56

I'll be okay. But I'm going

36:58

to try. Well, we're perfectionistic. We

37:00

don't try. Yeah, we push. It's

37:02

different. I like that a lot.

37:04

It is very different. I always

37:06

think of two horses. We both

37:08

love horses. You know, the horse

37:10

has blinders on because it can

37:12

only see what's in front of

37:14

it. Yeah. And well, the other

37:16

piece about perfectionism, that's certainly true

37:18

for me is if I'm not

37:20

perfect, then I face fear of

37:22

failure. And I will then be

37:24

nothing. I'm just having this memory.

37:26

This goes back many, many years.

37:28

Another amazing woman, Lee Wein Rob.

37:30

who's got a cool company called

37:32

Mind and Motion. She walks with

37:34

people. She's a therapist. Oh, wow.

37:36

Basically, she came to a horse

37:38

show and she said, I want

37:40

you to go into the ring

37:42

and screw up over every jump.

37:44

And I want you to do

37:46

this for like the... 10 horse

37:48

shows. Just go in and screw

37:50

up every jump. And then I

37:52

want you to come out of

37:54

the ring and I want everybody

37:56

who knows and loves you. I

37:58

want you to imagine them all

38:00

just hugging you because it doesn't

38:02

matter whether you screwed up a

38:04

jump or not because they still

38:06

love you. Talk about a rigid

38:08

grass on your whole system that

38:10

really causes you to not perform

38:12

from an athletic standpoint as effectively

38:14

as you need to. A, you're

38:16

not breathing. So your brain's getting

38:19

no oxygen. But it's for the

38:21

same idea like you know. How

38:23

do you help people, how do

38:25

you help yourself manage the fear

38:27

of failure and of being nothing?

38:29

You know, the fear, for me

38:31

it was the fear of getting

38:33

in trouble if I failed at

38:35

something. You know, so I think

38:37

there's a whole other component of

38:39

recognizing that perfectionism is about image

38:41

management. It's about managing the fear

38:43

of failure. It's love your concept

38:45

that it's fragile, it feels so

38:47

accurate, it's like we could break

38:49

at any moment, somebody looks at

38:51

us wrong and we're immediately devastated.

38:53

That's that unconscious wounded career path,

38:55

is realizing that that's a part

38:57

of who we are appreciating that

38:59

part of us because it kept

39:01

us safe in some respect when

39:03

we were little, or at least

39:05

gave us a sense of safety

39:07

and security, but also appreciate that

39:09

we can do it differently now

39:11

that we're adults. We have choice.

39:13

We do. Maintaining and focusing on

39:15

how do I stay in my

39:17

highest functioning adult self rather than

39:19

my wooed me driving the bus,

39:21

that then becomes really key. And

39:23

Rapid Power We Claim helps you

39:25

to do that. It really does.

39:27

I also want to throw a

39:29

plug in here for listeners for

39:31

internal family systems work and parts

39:33

therapy, you know, where you really

39:35

can find that part of yourself.

39:37

Yes. I often say that there's

39:39

a middle schooler in every one

39:41

of us somewhere. But even more

39:43

seriously than that, there is probably

39:45

a lot of us. We have

39:47

so many parts and some are

39:49

wounded. and some are strong and

39:51

they all have their role, right?

39:53

They do. That's a whole other

39:55

discussion of how family, their family

39:57

role we play growing up, how

39:59

that shows up at work. Oh

40:01

my God. Yes. Well, the hero,

40:03

the scapegoat, the comedian or the

40:05

comic, you know, the Lost Child,

40:07

we all show up at work

40:09

in such similar costumes. It's crazy.

40:11

Wherever you go, there you are.

40:13

As my beloved therapist used to

40:15

say. So I want to end

40:17

here. Yeah. You know, now you're

40:19

coaching, you're working with executives. I

40:21

am. What would you do if

40:23

someone said to you, but this

40:26

is how I know how to

40:28

be successful? What if I changed

40:30

my behavior and I'm not successful

40:32

anymore? Well, I think that's a

40:34

normal reaction. In fact, the first

40:36

time I went through a major

40:38

assessment at Kellogg's, one of the

40:40

outcomes was I was super high

40:42

on perfectionism. I know that shocking.

40:44

And I remember thinking, oh. Excellent.

40:46

I'm good at perfectionism. That's why

40:48

I'm so good at what I

40:50

do. I remember the consultant, the

40:52

guy named Ken Wright, who I

40:54

still work with, he said, no,

40:56

no, no, you're not understanding. Perfectionism

40:58

is not healthy for you. And

41:00

while it might be working for

41:02

you now, it will stop working

41:04

for you in the future. I'm

41:06

like completely disregarded is common. I'm

41:08

like, well, my perfectionism is part

41:10

of who I am. That's why

41:12

I'm successful. And I blew it

41:14

off. I mean, I really did.

41:16

But I remember some of his

41:18

other words, he said. He said,

41:20

the problem with perfectionism is that

41:22

you define yourself based on what

41:24

you do rather than who you

41:26

are. And you can basically focus

41:28

on managing the perfectionism and focus

41:30

on being achievement oriented, which is

41:32

all about defining yourself based on

41:34

who you are and still doing

41:36

great work. when you're stuck in

41:38

perfectionism it's like you said it's

41:40

like a it's like a brittle

41:42

shell and ultimately the cost of

41:44

perfectionism is significant. You know, the

41:46

cost of distraction and rumination, the

41:48

cost of using unhealthy cell soothing

41:50

habits, the cost of constantly beating

41:52

yourself up and going into states

41:54

of anxiety and depression, there are

41:56

a lot of costs that come

41:58

with hanging on to the perfectionism

42:00

like it's the only thing you

42:02

have to be successful. But if

42:04

you start to shift to, all

42:06

right, how do I start detaching

42:08

who I am from what I

42:10

do, I'm still going to do

42:12

great work. But I'm letting you

42:14

get much better asking for clarity

42:16

about what's the desired outcome, you

42:18

know, how much time do you

42:20

need me to do it? If

42:22

you need me to do these

42:24

three priorities, I'm going to need

42:26

to push one back. Are you

42:28

good with that? So you start

42:30

learning how to navigate and negotiate

42:32

your work so that it's not

42:35

leading you to show up in

42:37

the state of perfectionism. And then

42:39

also giving lots of tools to

42:41

people that are managing the perfectionism.

42:43

One of the simple tool called

42:45

QQQTR. which stands for quality quantity

42:47

time and resources. Which perfectionists think

42:49

they get an assignment, they've got

42:51

to do it to the 100th

42:53

degree. But if you then start

42:55

to negotiate with your boss or

42:57

your colleague or whoever it is

42:59

you're doing the work for, okay,

43:01

you want me to do this

43:03

project? You know, again, kind of

43:05

my example with my former CEO,

43:07

what's the quality level of quality?

43:09

Do you need it to be

43:11

exact or can it be an

43:13

estimate? The quantity, you know, do

43:15

you need this to be? a

43:17

one-page summary, are you looking for

43:19

a 30-page report, a presentation, you

43:21

know, what are you looking for?

43:23

Time, how much time do I

43:25

have? Every leader is going to

43:27

say, well, I need it, I

43:29

need it by next week. Okay,

43:31

I can do that, but if

43:33

I do that, I'm going to

43:35

have to push back this other

43:37

priority, are you okay with that?

43:39

Okay, you're not okay with that,

43:41

then I'm going to need some

43:43

more resources. This was a really...

43:45

game changer for me is anytime

43:47

I get an assignment I always

43:49

assumed I had to do it.

43:51

But actually that's not necessarily the

43:53

case. I'm working with one leader

43:55

right now, and we're really looking

43:57

at how strong this routine and

43:59

how much can you delegate. So

44:01

the four Ds are, you have

44:03

to ask yourself, am I supposed

44:05

to do this? Am I supposed

44:07

to delegate it? Can I defer

44:09

it? Or could I dump it?

44:11

Can I defer it? Or could

44:13

I dump it? I had one

44:15

colleague at Kellogg's years ago. Frank

44:17

Hardgrove. I love the guy. And

44:19

he would say, you know, Susan,

44:21

Susan, I get three times. Talk

44:23

about deferring. I mean, that was

44:25

great. He was an expert king

44:27

at deferring. If it was important

44:29

to somebody, they would follow up

44:31

and then he would take action.

44:33

The QQTR is really powerful and

44:35

then the 4D is also really

44:37

powerful. So starting to get people

44:39

techniques for managing the perfectionism and

44:42

healthier ways. Yeah. That's what I've

44:44

been doing. There's lots of other

44:46

techniques, but those are a couple.

44:48

I love it. And most important,

44:50

as you said before, is just

44:52

to start asking some questions. Really?

44:54

Ask yourself questions? Ask the other

44:56

person, you know, just giving it

44:58

some space? Yep. I'll just end

45:00

with this, you know, some of

45:02

the most powerful advice I ever

45:04

got was from Buffy Purcell, who's

45:06

a, she's a money manager, but

45:08

she talks a lot about our

45:10

emotional attachment with money, and we

45:12

were talking about money and anxiety

45:14

and how, you know, imagine you

45:16

get a letter from the IRS.

45:18

No one wants a letter from

45:20

the IRS if you have money

45:22

anxiety. What's your first inclination? I'll

45:24

just write the check Please I

45:26

don't want to get out right

45:28

like and she said you know

45:30

what I tell my clients with

45:32

money and is you actually don't

45:34

have to do anything right away

45:36

Which is such a radical notion

45:38

to those of us or you

45:40

know your friend Frank would be

45:42

fine with it if someone said

45:44

your boss asked you to do

45:46

this you got a letter from

45:48

the IRS and you don't have

45:50

to stop everything I have to

45:52

stop everything Yeah. Do you? No.

45:54

You don't. We just perfect just

45:56

ever think about negotiating the terms

45:58

of the assignment. We just always

46:00

assume it's going to be at

46:02

the, you know, perfectionism level. Not

46:04

always the case. It's managing our

46:06

all nervous systems response to how

46:08

do I step up and negotiate,

46:10

how do I manage this, is

46:12

really getting focused on, okay, how

46:14

do I manage this with the

46:16

rapid power reclaim, how do I

46:18

step into this, how do I

46:20

not get overwhelmed by this. That's

46:27

it for this episode of The Anxious

46:29

Achiever. The show is produced and edited

46:31

by Mary Dew with production support and

46:33

sound engineering by Nick Kinko. If you

46:36

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46:40

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47:05

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