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1:30

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1:32

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1:35

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1:46

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1:57

right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're

2:00

talking with Jenny Wood, former Google leader

2:02

and top career coach, explaining why everything

2:04

you've been taught to be successful is

2:06

a lie. Jenny spent 18 years at

2:08

Google climbing the ranks from entry level

2:10

to executive. She also created one of

2:12

Google's largest career development programs ever, and

2:15

today she joins us to discuss her

2:17

new book, Wild Courage, Go After What

2:19

You Want, and Get It. She shares

2:21

why being weird builds more authentic connections

2:23

to being average, how to prepare agendas

2:26

for meetings to control your career narrative.

2:28

and the reason your manager's peers influence

2:30

your promotion more than you think. Welcome

2:32

to the show, Jenny, great to have

2:34

you. Hey, great to be here, Johnny, aging. I had

2:36

the pleasure of actually meeting you in person

2:38

in Atlanta last year and I got to

2:41

see a lot of these qualities in action,

2:43

so it's exciting now to dig into the

2:45

book and hear your story behind the book

2:47

as well as share these qualities with our

2:49

audience. Yeah, let's dig. So. There's a quote

2:51

that I'd love to start a discussion with,

2:53

an insight you share in the book that

2:55

I know rings true for Johnny and I,

2:57

and we've seen firsthand and all the amazing

2:59

guests we've had on the show. The quote is,

3:01

successful people take action despite

3:04

their fear. They muster the courage to

3:06

do what's necessary to succeed before it's

3:08

encouraged by others, or even considered

3:10

socially acceptable. Yeah. Why is that

3:12

so important for us? It's important

3:15

because I observe, going from entry

3:17

level to executive at Google over

3:19

18 years, that... a key blocker

3:21

to so many people's success.

3:23

Mind you, these are skilled,

3:26

talented, capable, experienced people at

3:28

Google. A blockage is so much

3:30

of their success was their relationship

3:33

to fear, fear of uncertainty, fear

3:35

of failure, fear of the judgment

3:37

of others. And that last

3:39

one is particularly interesting and

3:42

acute and it shapes how we view

3:44

ourselves. It shapes how we view

3:46

ourselves. It shapes how we view ourselves.

3:48

It shapes how We see ourselves that

3:50

shapes how others maybe see us. It

3:52

creates a voice in our head that

3:54

creates these labels, these labels we want

3:57

to avoid, right? Like, oh, I might do that, I

3:59

might go for that. job or ask to participate

4:01

in that team, but I'm worried that

4:03

someone, or I might disagree with my

4:05

boss or my VP, but I don't

4:07

do it because I'm worried someone might

4:10

call me blank, right, fill in the

4:12

blank with any negative label that might

4:14

come your way, right, that we want

4:16

to avoid. And those are the nine

4:18

labels that I like to reclaim,

4:20

because these labels create the bars

4:22

of an invisible cage that keep

4:24

us small, keep us quiet, following

4:26

versus leading. And for the skeptics in

4:29

our audience, as we go through these

4:31

traits, I think it's really important to

4:33

highlight that. Not only did you learn

4:35

about them in your own career path,

4:37

but you also developed training at Google

4:39

to help others break through. So I

4:41

know in listening to some of these

4:43

traits, they might sound off-putting at first,

4:45

so I know in listening to some of

4:48

these traits, they might sound off-putting at first,

4:50

or hey, that works for you, but that

4:52

won't work for Google, and then we can

4:54

get into the great traits. Yeah, definitely.

4:56

Well, the book is very different from

4:59

the training at Google, mainly because once

5:01

we get into the traits, you'll recognize

5:03

how it never would have flown to

5:05

have a program at Google that doubled

5:07

down on these traits. But the program

5:09

was called Own Your Career, and it

5:11

really just started as a lark. I

5:14

ran an operations team that sat between

5:16

sales and engineering that helped drive billions

5:18

in revenue annually, and I've never been in

5:20

HR, I've never been in people operations,

5:22

I've always enjoyed coaching and mentoring, and

5:24

just out of my own journey, trying

5:26

to go from an executive role in

5:28

the New York office to an executive

5:30

role in the Boulder office, I found

5:32

myself getting stuck and coming up against

5:34

a wall and really spending six months

5:36

trying hard to find this next leadership

5:39

role for me at Google. So I

5:41

wrote down these 12 tips or so

5:43

to myself to help me be successful

5:45

next time. Just these notes. Honestly, like

5:47

a black and white document with 12

5:49

bullets, one page, and then when people would

5:51

come to me for mentorship, I'd say, hey, why

5:53

don't you read this doc first, and then we

5:55

can chat about your specific challenges, but

5:57

this will get us ahead of the game. Well,

5:59

that doc... started getting shared, it started

6:01

getting shared more, and then it became

6:04

a 60-minute training, then it became a

6:06

bi-weekly newsletter, and then I named it,

6:08

own your career, and before I knew

6:11

it, these career tips, these tips to

6:13

help with stakeholder management or networking or

6:15

negotiations, the program grew to tens of

6:18

thousands of people across nearly 100 countries,

6:20

and it became one of Google's largest

6:22

career programs in its 25-year history. Absolutely

6:25

shocking to me, but what What it

6:27

told me was like I've struck a

6:29

nerve. People want help with this and

6:32

especially like in the age of AI,

6:34

the soft skills matter so much and

6:36

people are always craving help with the

6:39

soft skills. So that's a little bit

6:41

about the program. I know for many

6:43

of our audience members and even our

6:45

clients they lean so heavily on the

6:48

technical skills to get ahead in their

6:50

career and then they hit that invisible

6:52

wall where these people skills become invaluable.

6:55

and they try to focus on the

6:57

immediate relationships around them so with their

6:59

boss or their peers but a lot

7:02

of what's missing is showcasing these traits

7:04

with people outside of just your small

7:06

group to get that visibility to move

7:09

from invisible to visible in the organization

7:11

for you personally in your career how

7:13

did you unlock that visibility piece first

7:16

we have to acknowledge that visibility is

7:18

a good thing and it is critical

7:20

and if anybody tells you just Keep

7:23

your head down and get your work

7:25

done. They are lying to you. They're

7:27

lying to you. And I want to

7:30

not lie to you anymore. I want

7:32

you to recognize that visibility is critical.

7:34

And okay, managing up old news. That's

7:36

to your boss. We want to manage

7:39

higher. We want to manage diagonally. So

7:41

manage higher. Have a twice a year

7:43

meeting with your boss's boss, especially at

7:46

a mid to large-sized organization. Get to

7:48

know two or three of your manager's

7:50

peers. If your manager has seven peers,

7:53

get to know two or three of

7:55

them in an organic, authentic way. Not,

7:57

hey, I'm up for promotion and I

8:00

just. wanted to introduce myself, my name's

8:02

Jenny Wood, right? Twenty-four hours before promotions

8:04

are decided, not like that, in a

8:07

way that is bringing a project to

8:09

them that you're working on and you're

8:11

excited about and you might be able

8:14

to offer to their team in the

8:16

future or get feedback on because someone

8:18

on their team has done something similar.

8:20

Or asking one of them to mentor

8:23

you because you're genuinely interested in their

8:25

projects in their team and their work

8:27

and you think. that they might be

8:30

able to give you guidance, career guidance,

8:32

project guidance, relationship guidance. So managing hire

8:34

is meeting your boss's boss and having

8:37

a relationship with them. Managing diagonally is,

8:39

if you think of your manager as

8:41

up above you on the org chart

8:44

and their peers are next to them,

8:46

managing diagonally is building relationships with a

8:48

couple key players of your manager's peers.

8:51

have equal influence, equal weight, and equally

8:53

bend the big boss's gear. So find

8:55

the intersectionality between who has the influence,

8:58

who do people take seriously, because some

9:00

people just got that position because they

9:02

got lucky, right? And who are you

9:05

really genuinely connect with? And who can

9:07

offer you feedback and ideation and, you

9:09

know, expanded ways that you can think

9:11

about your work? That's the holy grail.

9:14

That's the holy grail. But to me,

9:16

that is like visibility at its core

9:18

is going beyond your manager. And for

9:21

those who are listening on the other

9:23

side of this, I want you all

9:25

to realize what time it is. And

9:28

we had a little laugh earlier before

9:30

the call of just talking about how

9:32

even your colleagues are going to be

9:35

using AI. So the skill gap that

9:37

you think you might have the advantage

9:39

of, that's closing fast. And so it

9:42

is going to be your people skills

9:44

that is. going to do most of

9:46

the heavy lifting getting you to to

9:49

or toward your goals. And so if

9:51

you do have those beliefs of I'm

9:53

just going to keep my head down

9:55

and work hard and I'm going to

9:58

be seen for the work that I

10:00

do, or I'm going to outwork everyone

10:02

else around me, you are making this

10:05

incredibly difficult on yourself. Yeah, and less

10:07

fun, by the way, because it's fun

10:09

to build relationships and you derive excitement

10:12

and energy and enthusiasm and ideas from

10:14

these colleagues that you can extend yourself

10:16

to getting to know better. It's funny

10:19

that you bring up the mindset shift,

10:21

Johnny. I was actually just coaching somebody

10:23

last week and he was applying for

10:26

a role and I said, you know,

10:28

everyone's used to sending a thank you

10:30

note within 24 hours after the interview.

10:33

I was like, send a pre-note, every

10:35

touch point matters before an interview. Send

10:37

the pre-note with three bullets, highlight your

10:40

superpowers, send, add a couple links to

10:42

projects you've done. And this was like

10:44

blowing his mind. And I was like,

10:46

and use numbers, double your numbers. Every

10:49

bullet should have good ROI, not traditional

10:51

ROI, but this is what is your

10:53

role, what was your objective, and what

10:56

was your impact, right? Use numbers. He

10:58

was like in the top 1% of

11:00

production on his current team. And it

11:03

was going to this product management role

11:05

that was so perfectly aligned with what

11:07

he'd been doing. And he was so

11:10

nervous, so nervous, so scared to share

11:12

to share these bullets ahead of time.

11:14

You know, bias is a loaded word,

11:17

but like, let's use it in a

11:19

positive way. When you walk into that

11:21

interview, you want to bias before you

11:24

even get there, that interviewer, that you're

11:26

a rock star. So why not give

11:28

them some data ahead of time? And

11:31

your resume doesn't cut it. That is

11:33

too long. There's too much going on

11:35

there. It's way too overwhelming. Pick three

11:37

bullets. Send a pre-interview note 24 hours

11:40

before you walk in the door. And

11:42

here's where the mindset. Isn't that going

11:44

to come across as like obnoxious or

11:47

a little bit arrogant or a little

11:49

bit pushy? And I was like, you've

11:51

got to be bold because this is

11:54

a competitive place and if you've got

11:56

50 other resumes that this hiring manager

11:58

is looking at and and they're gonna

12:01

have at least five or seven other

12:03

interviews. You want to be bold, you

12:05

want to stand out, you want to

12:07

share these incredible numbers. And if there's

12:10

ever a time to be bold and

12:12

bullish, it's in an interview. Like your

12:14

resume is a brag document. You're just

12:16

tightening up that brag document, giving them

12:19

like a little mini brag. And it

12:21

was really interesting to see how much

12:23

he struggled with his mindset shift

12:25

and this leaning into boldness. about

12:27

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12:30

that and how it helps you get ahead

12:32

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man. That was totally us back

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2025 the year you finally

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make it happen. Let's just go

17:07

through what that would look like

17:09

if AJ and I were to

17:11

get that email before the interview.

17:13

AJ is going to get that

17:15

email and he's going to send

17:17

that email over to me and

17:19

go look at what this guy right

17:22

here. And we're both going to

17:24

get fired. I'm like, okay, well,

17:26

you got the floor, sir. You

17:28

got our attention. Let's hear,

17:30

what do you got? So

17:32

it would definitely peak our

17:34

curiosity and get us fired

17:36

up. Now, you better show

17:39

up and deliver after that.

17:41

But if you're touting that

17:43

you're a rock star, then show

17:45

up as the rock star. The

17:47

biggest frustration. I see in people is

17:49

that they are really skilled, they are really

17:51

talented, they are rock stars in their own

17:54

way. Like of course you've got to have

17:56

the goods, right? But what separates the

17:58

truly successful people... from the people

18:00

who just kind of like, go along to

18:02

get along and like kind of chug along

18:04

in their career, are the people who can

18:07

shamelessly talk about their wins, right? And

18:09

I say shamelessly in a really positive

18:11

way because I love to kick imposter

18:13

syndrome to the curb and and and

18:15

inspire people to have less shame and

18:17

their and take so much pride in

18:19

their accomplishments and their talents and their skills

18:21

and their strengths and their strengths.

18:23

So assuming you've got the goods

18:25

to back it up, whatever those

18:27

skills and talents and talents are. If

18:29

you are holding back and not sharing

18:32

that explicitly with the world, whether

18:34

it's an interviewer or your manager,

18:37

your manager's peers, your manager's boss,

18:39

or even your peers, you are

18:41

really truly limiting your full potential,

18:44

and that's heartbreaking to me, it's

18:46

frustrating to me, and that's why

18:48

I like to help people do it. Yeah,

18:50

and you're also shining attention in

18:52

the spotlight to the areas that

18:55

you want the interviewer to see. So

18:57

they're so now they can they can

18:59

see where you're good and rather than

19:01

just listening to you and

19:03

trying to figure it out for

19:05

themselves help them out. Absolutely you're

19:07

sign posting for them you're even

19:09

almost helping them figure out what

19:12

to focus on in the interview.

19:14

Heck that saves people time. People

19:16

are busy people are distracted people

19:18

are overwhelmed and by the way

19:21

all of this extends to your

19:23

one-on-one weekly Tuesday meeting for 30

19:25

minutes with your boss, right? Come

19:27

with a prepared agenda, come with

19:30

four different categories, wins from last

19:32

week, current challenges, number two, number

19:34

three, where I need your support,

19:36

number four, career. Those are four

19:39

awesome categories to bring to every meeting

19:41

with their boss. Put bullets in there,

19:43

share some wins with numbers, right? focus

19:45

your boss on what you want to

19:47

talk about in that meeting. The people

19:50

who reported to me, the managers who

19:52

reported to me who were most successful,

19:54

spent 30 minutes prepping their one-on-one

19:56

doc before we had a weekly meeting.

19:58

And I would love... going in there

20:00

and seeing the links they they had

20:03

linked to with their project and the

20:05

specific questions I love the ones that

20:07

started with what and how those are

20:09

always so much were powerful their specific

20:11

questions of what they needed from me

20:14

the ones who were advocating for their

20:16

careers with that particular for their advocating

20:18

for their careers with that particular section

20:20

in the one-on-one not that you covered

20:22

every week but you know occasionally there

20:25

would be some bullets in there the

20:27

ones who didn't do so well in

20:29

their careers and we're always kind of

20:31

just plugging along we're the They weren't

20:33

focusing themselves. They weren't focusing the conversation.

20:36

And that is a gift to your

20:38

leader. It is Nothing but a gift.

20:40

You have the power to set the

20:42

agenda. You don't realize it. And this

20:44

is what's interesting to us with our

20:47

clients is like, invisibility starts small. It's

20:49

like that sense of relief when the

20:51

boss cancels the one-on-on-one stand-up meeting because

20:53

they're too busy. And then it's snowballs.

20:55

Okay, well, good, I got out of

20:58

that meeting and now I didn't have

21:00

to prepare. And then a couple weeks

21:02

go by, you haven't talked to your

21:04

boss at all, and then now you're

21:06

showing up remote. And then in the

21:09

group meeting, you haven't really had any

21:11

results, so you don't raise your hand,

21:13

you don't want to talk. And then

21:15

months and months go by, and guess

21:17

what happens around promotion? It's not just

21:20

your boss vyinging for you to get

21:22

promoted. And that invisibility then robs you

21:24

of promotion, but it also robs you

21:26

of relationships. And this is what I

21:28

wanted to key on, because so many

21:31

of these traits were taught and told

21:33

make you less charismatic, less charming, less

21:35

interesting, when in actuality, to build great

21:37

relationships fast, you have to stand out.

21:39

You cannot be average. You cannot be

21:42

shy, timid, and hope that other people

21:44

see this in you. You have to

21:46

stand out to build relationships quickly. So

21:48

I'd love to dig into at least

21:50

first. Are any of these traits that

21:53

you break down in the book something

21:55

that you specifically had to harness or

21:57

hard for you in the beginning or

21:59

how did you unlock them as a

22:01

part of this wild courage project? As

22:04

we dig into these traits more, let

22:06

me name them. So we have nine.

22:08

traits in the book. And as I

22:10

mentioned, these traits create the bars of

22:12

an invisible cage that keeps you small.

22:15

And because I want people to stop

22:17

playing small and start playing smart and

22:19

I know that every single one of

22:21

you listening has the capacity to do

22:23

that, the nine traits are weird, selfish,

22:25

shameless, nosy, obsessed, manipulative, that's a spicy

22:28

one, brutal, reckless and bossy. And you're

22:30

right, AJ, like these are eyebrow raising

22:32

traits. These are sizzily. These are spicy,

22:34

right? But I'm reclaiming these words. I'm

22:36

inviting all of you rather to reclaim

22:39

these words and to use them for

22:41

good in a sane and savvy way

22:43

that helps you get seen, get heard,

22:45

and get ahead. So for example, manipulative,

22:47

old definition intended to control new reclaimed

22:50

definition, the courage to build relationships through

22:52

empathy and create lasting partnerships. or reckless,

22:54

like acting without caution, reclaimed the courage

22:56

to take healthy risks in the air

22:58

on the side of action. Weird, win

23:01

as you or lose as who, selfish,

23:03

the courage to stand behind your efforts

23:05

and abilities. So this is all powerful

23:07

language. And when you think about the

23:09

new definition that I'm offering to you

23:12

today, it does seem like good stuff

23:14

that... that everybody should be taking advantage

23:16

of, but people get scared of the

23:18

labels. They get scared to be called,

23:20

oh, she's so bossy, right, especially as

23:23

a female leader. Well, to me, bossy

23:25

is the courage to listen and lead.

23:27

Or, you know, she's so manipulative, my

23:29

goodness, like, what a scary one to

23:31

be called. But I mean, what do

23:34

good leaders do aside from... getting other

23:36

people to move a process or a

23:38

program or an organization forward. Like manipulation

23:40

could be a positive thing. You take

23:42

a lump of play as an artist

23:45

and you manipulate it into something creative

23:47

and innovative, a beautiful sculpture, a beautiful...

23:49

wall hanging. Well, good leaders manipulate teams

23:51

to be creative, processes to be innovative,

23:53

just like the artists. So these things,

23:56

and manipulation is really straight up relationship

23:58

building and recognizing that, why are we

24:00

opening our mouths at any point ever

24:02

if we're not trying to get someone

24:04

to do something or say something? I

24:07

mean, why do you have this podcast,

24:09

if not to say things, do have

24:11

things come out of your mouth in

24:13

my mouth that will hopefully help other

24:15

people, right? We have a great example

24:18

in the book of manipulative around meeting

24:20

someone that had a great impact on

24:22

you and recognizing that this might be

24:24

your one chance to do so and

24:26

acting accordingly. But of course if you

24:29

label it as manipulative I could see

24:31

a lot of people in the audience

24:33

being like well I could never do

24:35

that but it ended up being such

24:37

a huge win for you. So share

24:40

that anecdote for our audience. I was

24:42

riding the subway home from work in

24:44

2011 and about 20 feet away from

24:46

me is this really attractive guy. Gorgeous

24:48

blue eyes, perfectly cloth 5 o'clock shadow.

24:51

Can a 5 o'clock shadow be quaffed?

24:53

Maybe, yeah. Yeah, he had brain facial

24:55

hair, right? And I was like, so

24:57

taken by him, but I got stuck

24:59

in fear, right? I wanted to walk

25:02

up to him and be like, hey,

25:04

I'm Jenny, right? But I was on

25:06

a packed subway train. I had fear

25:08

of judgment of others. What if 100

25:10

people watched me while I make a

25:13

fool of myself? Fear of failure, fear

25:15

of uncertainty. What if he's a convicted

25:17

felon, right? And so I made a

25:19

deal with myself. I said, if he

25:21

gets up at my stop, I will

25:24

try to strike up a conversation with

25:26

him. And if not, then say lovee.

25:28

That's the universe telling me it wasn't

25:30

meant to be. He gets off of

25:32

the next stop. That is not my

25:35

stop. And I have this moment of

25:37

wild courage, this wave of boldness and

25:39

shamelessness that like pushes me out of

25:41

my subway seat basically and I ran

25:43

off that train as I thought forget

25:46

the universe I'm making my own meant

25:48

to be so I chase the cap

25:50

up can't touch up with him as

25:52

he's exiting the station. And I say,

25:54

excuse me, you're wearing gloves and I

25:57

can't tell if you're wearing a wedding

25:59

ring. But in the event that you're

26:01

not married, you are on my subway

26:03

and I thought you were cute. Any

26:05

chance I could give you my business

26:08

car? And I wait for what feels

26:10

like a slow forever for him to

26:12

respond as I'm out of breath in

26:14

my heart pounding. And finally, he takes

26:16

the card. A week later, we go

26:18

on a date. It was amazing, three

26:21

years later, we got married and we've

26:23

now been married 11 years with two

26:25

little regress. Again, if we were to

26:27

label that as manipulative, we wouldn't have

26:29

left the subway and let that opportunity

26:32

pass you by. Or shameless, right? We

26:34

could label that shameless, we could label

26:36

that bossy, right? Like traditionally, think about

26:38

our, just think about societal norms or

26:40

traditional roles. Like, no, the woman should

26:43

wait for the man to ask her

26:45

out. That is bossy and shameless and

26:47

selfish for her to go after what

26:49

she wants. Like how unusual and uncommon

26:51

and atypical is that. But you know

26:54

what? If you're usual and you're common

26:56

and you're typical at work or in

26:58

your life or in your friendships or

27:00

in your relationships, you're going to get

27:02

forgotten, you're not going to get ahead

27:05

and you're not going to achieve the

27:07

success that I know each one of

27:09

you has in you to achieve just

27:11

waiting there waiting for it to come

27:13

out. in thinking about these traits, there's

27:16

always the negative impact of being labeled

27:18

it by others at some point in

27:20

your past. So, you know, each one

27:22

of those traits, there's probably one example

27:24

in your past as you're listening to

27:27

the show, we're like, I've been called

27:29

that, I hated it, I don't want

27:31

to be judged by that, and now

27:33

that label has persisted so much that

27:35

you've dimmed that entirely, you've ran from

27:38

it, avoided it, avoided it, and it's

27:40

cost you all these all these opportunities.

27:42

So what can we do when that

27:44

negative voice comes in and it's like,

27:46

oh Jenny, you're just going to be

27:49

manipulative, you can't leave the subway car?

27:51

I think the first thing you do

27:53

is you start small, like let's say,

27:55

depending on your... background in your culture,

27:57

whether you're listening in from a more

28:00

bold culture or bold city like New

28:02

York or LA or you know whatever

28:04

you characterize or you're born in Japan

28:06

or Beijing or or Sao Paulo, right?

28:08

All of these things can affect how

28:11

we feel about this level of boldness.

28:13

So no matter where you are coming

28:15

from today, no matter what it is

28:17

that you want to go after and

28:19

get. There's always something small you can

28:22

do, or whether you're introverted or extroverted.

28:24

So you start small. You start maybe

28:26

by sending a weekly Monday email to

28:28

your manager saying, hey, these are three

28:30

things I accomplished last week, and these

28:33

are three things I'm really looking forward

28:35

to this week, right? It doesn't involve

28:37

chasing anybody off a subway. It doesn't

28:39

involve standing up in front of your

28:41

company and presenting to 300 people. Maybe

28:44

it's as simple as when your VP

28:46

finishes their presentation in the town hall,

28:48

you send them a quick pain, a

28:50

quick slam, and you say, hey, that

28:52

was really helpful, and I appreciate your

28:55

transparency walking us through this reorg, right?

28:57

Think about it. Your leader has imposter

28:59

syndrome too. They're insecure when they're delivering

29:01

this really tricky, complicated reorg to the

29:03

company. they're worried about how it's going

29:06

to land. Am I communicating this thoughtfully?

29:08

Are we doing right by all of

29:10

you? And so even just giving your

29:12

leader the encouragement, like, hey, that actually

29:14

ended pretty well, I thought you did

29:17

a good job delivering it, I know

29:19

this is tough news, and it was

29:21

really helpful how you unpacked it. That

29:23

is such incredible relationship building and doesn't

29:25

require some huge sweeping moves like chasing

29:28

your future husband off the subway. Now

29:30

in the book you start with weird

29:32

as the first trade is there a

29:34

reason that we lead with weird because

29:36

I know so many of our audience

29:39

members and we laugh about this with

29:41

Johnny too and in the boot camp

29:43

when they come to train with us

29:45

that's like the one that they avoid

29:47

the most I don't want to be

29:50

seen as weird. If you go along

29:52

to get along and you wear the

29:54

you know if you're the intern and

29:56

you're like where the requisite dress code

29:58

and you sit there quite in the

30:01

meeting and you format your resume exactly

30:03

to the specifications. Okay, that's cool. And

30:05

you can put that company on your

30:07

resume for the three months stint that

30:09

summer. But if you want to land

30:11

that highly competitive role long term, you

30:13

gotta stand out. Maybe as that intern,

30:15

you're weird in that you disagree thoughtfully

30:17

with something that being said in the

30:19

meeting. Heck, you might even get

30:21

three reprimands and three compliments in the

30:24

same day, right? Because when you're putting

30:26

yourself out there and being weird and

30:28

authentic. You take a risk and you

30:31

might ruffle some feathers and smooth some

30:33

other feathers and that's just part of

30:35

life, right? But weird is the foundation

30:37

of the book because it's all about

30:40

authenticity. And sometimes it's just simple authenticity.

30:42

There was this one candidate, Carly, who

30:44

was applying for a role on my

30:47

team and man did she stand out

30:49

because of one single line on

30:51

her resume. At the very bottom,

30:53

under interest, it said, in constant

30:56

pursuit of the perfect oatmeal raison.

30:58

cookie recipe. She didn't just say

31:00

foodie, she didn't say, you know,

31:03

restaurant connoisseur or whatever, she gave

31:05

this very weird specific

31:07

anecdote. that showed so much personality.

31:09

That was a bit of a risk

31:12

because it's an unusual thing to write

31:14

on a resume. That showed her curiosity,

31:16

it showed her noziness, it showed her

31:18

shamelessness, right, that she would do something

31:20

that was unusual, which was also weird.

31:22

It showed her obsession, right, obsessed, is

31:25

push, persist, perform, that she was looking

31:27

for the best, the best, not average,

31:29

but the best oatmeal raisin, cookie

31:31

recipe. So all those traits, like she

31:33

showed five traits in one sentence, by

31:36

doing something different. And it's one of

31:38

the reasons I interviewed her and then

31:40

her colorful personality in the interview matched

31:42

that resume and that we were off

31:45

to the races. She was one of the

31:47

best hires I ever made at Google. It's

31:49

so fascinating how oftentimes just

31:51

showcasing that weird side not

31:53

only strikes authenticity, but really

31:56

resonates with everyone because we all

31:58

feel weird in different ways. all have

32:00

those passions that we know most people don't

32:02

enjoy. Johnny has some musical obsessions that we've

32:04

shared on the show over the years that

32:06

I think a lot of our audience would

32:08

label weird. I get way into cooking in

32:10

very weird ways that I think aren't really

32:12

gonna resonate with most of our audience. We

32:14

didn't start a podcast around those weird things,

32:16

but they're part of all of us. And

32:18

when you feel comfortable and confident enough to

32:20

showcase that weirdness, you'd be surprised how much

32:22

it resonates it resonates with others and creates

32:24

the opportunity for relationship. It creates the

32:27

opportunity for a relationship

32:30

and it creates the

32:32

opportunity for a partnership

32:34

because people like to work

32:36

with interesting people. People like

32:39

to see you as a

32:41

person and not just this

32:43

worker be. And it is It's just

32:45

such a powerful that like your

32:48

your weirdness slash authenticity combined with

32:50

your enthusiasm Enthusiasm can cover up

32:52

so much lack of skill talent

32:55

experience Because enthusiasm it's just it

32:57

brings so much to the table and I

32:59

mean I've hired people just based on

33:02

our enthusiasm but damn strange. Yeah being

33:04

around people that bring great energy fuels

33:06

the whole team. So why wouldn't you

33:08

want to fill a team full of

33:11

enthusiastic people? And that's critical

33:13

for a manager critical. Like if I

33:15

had to pick between, you know, a leader

33:17

who I was hiring who was like

33:19

killer at V Lookups and knew all

33:21

the shortcuts on their spreadsheet and could,

33:23

you know, run circles around me on

33:25

the API or whatever spreadsheet or dashboard

33:27

it was that we were building, okay,

33:29

that's that's fine. That's good. But if I'm

33:31

not looking forward to walking into

33:33

a one-on-one with that person each

33:35

Thursday morning, I don't want to hire

33:37

that person, I would much rather take 80%

33:39

skill set on the

33:42

spreadsheets, on the V-lookups,

33:44

on the shortcuts, on the

33:47

API creation, and have

33:49

that person be someone

33:51

who is thoughtful, engaging,

33:53

fun, creative, connected,

33:56

and enthusiastic

33:58

all day long. So you

34:01

highlight that some of these traits

34:03

can be overdone. So let's talk

34:05

about what are trait traps because

34:07

each trait you highlight there are

34:09

traps around them. And let's start

34:11

with weird because I think for

34:13

those in our audience are like,

34:15

great, now I can be weird.

34:17

Let me let my freak flag

34:19

fly. They might overdo it. How

34:21

much do you want me to

34:23

get into the specifics on this

34:25

one? On my own freak flag.

34:27

You guide me here. Yeah, we're

34:30

explicitly rated here, so you can

34:32

get as freaky as you want.

34:34

Okay. It happened in 7th grade.

34:36

It's not so freaky. It's just

34:38

deeply, deeply embarrassing. So we're just

34:40

showing your best self. It is

34:42

not saying something outlandish or... obnoxious

34:44

for the sake of attention. And

34:46

on my first day of seventh

34:48

grade, I was in a brand

34:50

new school and this middle school

34:52

went sixth, seventh, and eighth, so

34:54

when I happened to do elementary

34:56

school, sixth grade in elementary school,

34:58

so I was the new girl

35:00

and everybody else knew each other.

35:02

So my deep insecurity, my lower

35:04

case A anxiety, and my desire

35:07

to be noticed, to be liked,

35:09

to make people aware of who

35:11

I was as this new girl,

35:13

showed up in all the wrong

35:15

ways. So it was, and we

35:17

were in language arts class and

35:19

the teacher Mrs. Howard said she

35:21

gave her spiel at the beginning

35:23

that she said okay does anybody

35:25

have any questions it was like

35:27

an introduction about who she was

35:29

and I raised my hand desperate

35:31

for a laugh and I said

35:33

I have a question are you

35:35

a virgin in front of my

35:37

entire seventh grade class brand new

35:39

seventh grade class and that is

35:41

the wrong kind of weird that

35:44

was letting my freak flag fly

35:46

in really really devastating ways. I

35:48

did not get the laugh I

35:50

was seeking. I did not make

35:52

any friends that day. And then

35:54

I wrought weirdly, I happened to

35:56

see her in the greeting card

35:58

aisle at the supermarket that afternoon,

36:00

which is just a total coincidence.

36:02

And I walked up to her,

36:04

took the longest, you know, 10

36:06

steps of my 11-year-old life, and

36:08

I said, Mrs. Howard, I'm sorry.

36:10

I apologize. I don't know where

36:12

that came from. I don't know

36:14

why that did that did that.

36:16

why I did that and she

36:18

was very gracious and she said

36:21

that's okay I understand and she

36:23

was a lovely teacher but like

36:25

that's not the weird you want

36:27

to be you want to be

36:29

professional at work or in your

36:31

relationships and your friendships on a

36:33

date whatever it is you want

36:35

to be mindful you want to

36:37

let your best self show not

36:39

just be weird for the sake

36:41

of weird and say something you

36:43

know for attention or you know

36:45

we've all seen the movie stars

36:47

who do the the odd thing

36:49

for attention. I guess sometimes it

36:51

works, but if you're not a

36:53

movie star, you know, air on

36:55

the side of the right, the

36:58

right, dial you read up appropriately.

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express.com/business dash gold card, built for

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business by American Express. Well, I

40:07

know as a people pleaser myself

40:09

and many of our audience members

40:11

have shared with us that they've

40:13

struggled in that category as well.

40:15

You know, how often do we

40:17

find ourselves elevating others? at the

40:19

cost of ourselves and that self-champening

40:21

and being so self-assured, whether it's

40:23

sending that email with here or

40:25

three great things about me, or

40:27

leaning into all of the self-promotion

40:29

that a lot of these traits

40:31

allow in us can be very

40:33

difficult, especially when we're so clear

40:35

on others and want to please

40:37

those around us. So to the

40:39

people pleases in the audience, and

40:42

what advice do you have around

40:44

highlighting these traits and showcasing these

40:46

traits? This one's tough for me.

40:48

You know, I think you alluded

40:50

earlier to like, what do you

40:52

still struggle with? This is one

40:54

I definitely still struggle with. And

40:56

it'll people think like, oh, selfishness

40:58

is the big problem in this

41:00

world. I argue differently. I think

41:02

selflessness in a professional setting can

41:04

be an equally big problem because

41:06

sure, there are a couple of

41:08

bad opposites who spoil a bunch,

41:10

right? And there are some people

41:12

who truly are selfish. But when

41:14

we're overly selfless, in our careers,

41:16

you know, always giving that key

41:19

project to somebody else. Or, you

41:21

know, there's, there's, there's this person

41:23

at this, this company who was

41:25

a pretty large company, and she

41:27

was like a top performer, really

41:29

good manager, but she got distracted

41:31

by the side project and she

41:33

got this performance review that was

41:35

mediocre. And she had this. working

41:37

with her with a peer on

41:39

a project and she knew that

41:41

even though they were doing equal

41:43

work on the project the peer

41:45

would get extra kind of credit

41:47

like the peer would be seen

41:49

as getting the lines here of

41:51

the credit if she was the

41:53

one that presented the project in

41:56

this 30-minute meeting to the leadership

41:58

team and so even though she

42:00

wanted to encourage this peer, she's like,

42:02

you know what, can I actually do

42:04

the presentation? She got a little bit

42:06

selfish, just like this tiny little anecdote

42:08

of selfishness, because she was starting to get

42:10

concerned about her performance, right? She had

42:12

gotten distracted by the side project, her

42:15

manager said, hey, get your eye back

42:17

on the ball, and so she advocated

42:19

for being the one to present because

42:21

she knew the person who presented would

42:23

get the mind share of the credit.

42:25

So it's just like this small moment

42:27

of selfishness that doesn't hurt anybody else.

42:29

to ask for this, but we oftentimes

42:31

feel bad, we feel like, oh, we're letting

42:33

our team down, or, well, why should I ask

42:35

for what I want, or why should I ask

42:37

to present, or, you know, it's like, if you

42:39

give everybody else a leg up at

42:42

your expense, if you really true, we

42:44

will get trampled career wise, right? And

42:46

those people will shine and go ahead

42:48

and move ahead. You have a great framework

42:50

in the book, win that I

42:52

think is super impactful in these

42:54

moments. I'll give one example of one

42:56

story and then one example of

42:58

my own life. So the story

43:00

is Claire Torrey was a session

43:02

singer that was invited to just

43:05

do the little tiny moment on

43:07

this Pink Floyd song. So as

43:09

she's recording this for Dark Side

43:11

of the Moon not even knowing

43:13

what it would become, she just

43:15

does her vocals. They become these

43:17

legendary vocals like, ah, right? These

43:19

like legendary vocals on the song.

43:21

And she's just making it up

43:23

on the spot. She gets paid

43:25

30 pounds as a fee just to

43:27

be like a backup singer or a

43:29

session singer. And then she walks out

43:31

and she like goes along her day.

43:33

So she doesn't even know that the

43:35

song has made the album until

43:37

she sees that come out. And then

43:40

this goes on to be like 14

43:42

times Platinum, massive huge hit, Dark Side

43:44

of the Moon. And so she says,

43:46

okay, well, what I need now? Selfless

43:48

would be like, oh my gosh, I was happy

43:50

to get my 30 pound fee, but she got

43:52

a little bit, she had some healthy selfishness

43:55

and she said, let's play to win,

43:57

what I need now, what I need

43:59

now is a songwriting. credit and XYZ

44:01

lump of money, right? So she sues Pink

44:03

Floyd and Pink Floyd was smart to settle

44:05

outside of court for an undisclosed song and

44:07

she was smart to be selfish in the

44:10

right way and ask for what she needed

44:12

because like it really wasn't an unfair situation

44:14

given she had made that song what it

44:16

was. Those legendary vocals are the key to

44:19

that song. So that was her what I

44:21

need now. What I need now for me,

44:23

I was really excited to do this. volunteer

44:26

role to be head of the quite large

44:28

Google Boulder office. And this had been a

44:30

dream of mine for years. I ran into,

44:32

I wanted to be co-head, I ran into

44:35

the person who was head at a street

44:37

fair and where our kids were bouncing on

44:39

this bouncy castle, boulders, you know, not a

44:41

huge city. And despite having a large Google

44:44

office, and I was like, I aspire to

44:46

be co-cite with you. And it was like,

44:48

on a Sunday and our kids are bouncing

44:50

and everyone's got like snow cones dripping like

44:53

not at all the appropriate time to be

44:55

asking but I was asking for what I

44:57

wanted I was being a little bit shameless.

45:00

Well fast-forward a couple of years I'm actually

45:02

offered the opportunity and by that time I

45:04

had my full-time operations role I was writing

45:06

the book I was leading the on your

45:09

career program that was a massive undertaking I

45:11

was working every single night every single Saturday

45:13

and Sunday and Sunday and despite the fact

45:15

that for years, I aspired to have that

45:18

role to help lead the community. I said,

45:20

all right, well, I got to play to

45:22

win. What I need now is to say

45:24

no, to not people please, to not look

45:27

at Jenny's goals three years ago, but to

45:29

look at Jenny's goals today, and they do

45:31

not include this very, very heavy and time-consuming

45:34

role of being the volunteer co-head of the

45:36

Google Boulder office. And as hard as for

45:38

me to say no, I did, because that

45:40

was not what I needed now for them.

45:43

And she was incredible about it. She's like,

45:45

hey, it is not your responsibility to worry

45:47

about who's going to do it. I did

45:49

feel like I do a good job and

45:52

I cared so much about the office and

45:54

so much about the community, but she's like,

45:56

that is my responsibility. to find another next

45:58

best option and it's not your responsibility. But

46:01

I was like gonna say yes to people

46:03

please and be like, who else would do

46:05

a good job? Right, that's just almost arrogant.

46:08

There's nobody else who would do a good

46:10

job, of course there is. And she did

46:12

say to me, Jenny, a man would not

46:14

feel this way. So not to get too

46:17

gendered, but she's like, a man would not

46:19

be apologizing for saying no to this opportunity.

46:21

So think about that too. Key piece of

46:23

what I need now, I think it's lost

46:26

on so many of us because, especially in

46:28

our career path, we're following what a lot

46:30

of outside influence tells us will make us

46:32

successful. So it's like, well, what my parents

46:35

need to see and what I need to

46:37

tell my peers and what I need to

46:39

show on LinkedIn and how I need to

46:42

be getting approval from those around me, it's

46:44

really hard to zone in and be clear

46:46

enough for you to turn down such a

46:48

major opportunity. even though that opportunity would have

46:51

influenced all those people you could have put

46:53

on your LinkedIn, everyone would have looked up

46:55

to you for that accomplishment. How did you

46:57

really tap into that? Okay, this is what

47:00

I need and that self-awareness. Very, very hard

47:02

for me. I remember hiking with my dear

47:04

friend, Nina, and she was like, Jenny, this

47:06

gives you nothing. I think it's like it's

47:09

so much work and I think it's maybe

47:11

a little bit of ego because you like

47:13

being seen as like the head of something

47:16

and Jenny who loves superlatives and just like

47:18

but just keeping it real with you you

47:20

focusing your energy on making this book as

47:22

good as it can be like if you

47:25

had three hours next week and because sometimes

47:27

this role is dealing with like some real

47:29

unsexy kind of issues, right? Like, Google has

47:31

a dog. Well, the dogs are allowed in

47:34

the office, and then, like, everyone's like, I'm

47:36

allergic to dogs. Like, can we switch the

47:38

dog allowed floors to floors two and floors

47:40

four? So you're, like, dealing with things like

47:43

that. And then, of course, leading all the

47:45

company town halls and things like that that

47:47

are quite fun and energizing. But she's like,

47:50

if you have three hours of your time,

47:52

are you have a dog, loud dogs in

47:54

the Google Boulder office? Or are you better

47:56

off perfecting Chapter 7 or improving Chapter 7

47:59

to be helpful to not just the, you

48:01

know, thousands of people in this office, but

48:03

to the millions of people you could potentially

48:05

help motivate, you know, invigorate and inspire with

48:08

this book? And I was like, okay, you

48:10

have a good point, you know? But it

48:12

was still so hard for me to say

48:14

no, so hard. I wrote an entire document

48:17

of like all the restrictions I'd have if

48:19

I did take the role take the role.

48:21

and they were so thoughtful about working with

48:24

me, but I was like, you know what,

48:26

even though they're saying like, oh, you've got

48:28

all these other resources and all these other

48:30

admins, you can lean on to help. I

48:33

knew at the end of the day, it

48:35

was going to be a ton of work

48:37

and I just had to be brutal. That's

48:39

one of my nine traits. I had to

48:42

be brutal, right? Yeah, we talk a lot

48:44

about boundaries on the show and going along

48:46

with that, like self awareness of what you

48:48

actually you actually need, getting through the people-

48:51

Boundaries can feel very brutal when you draw

48:53

them for the first time and when you're

48:55

actually stepping into the no to say no

48:58

to this major opportunity to actually say yes

49:00

to what you need in the moment. And

49:02

you know, Dory Clark has this great saying

49:04

in the book, the long game, like every

49:07

yes leads to 10 other yeses, or maybe

49:09

she says 20 other yeses, and it is

49:11

so true. Like now when I do a

49:13

keynote like sometimes people will say okay well

49:16

will you do this keynote at a discounted

49:18

rate or you know can you just do

49:20

this little this little session with my cohort

49:22

and like I want to say yes I'm

49:25

like oh it'll just be 30 minutes of

49:27

my time they're like oh you just show

49:29

up literally don't have to prepare anything just

49:32

this 30 minutes that's it well guess what?

49:34

Then they send my questions in advance and

49:36

it's like, well, gosh, I want to put

49:38

thought into this, I want this to be

49:41

good. Then we have to just change the

49:43

date. So now I'm like in my calendar,

49:45

right? So that's yes number one. I'm like

49:47

prepping questions in advance because I like to

49:50

be helpful to people if I can. Number

49:52

two, we're changing the date. So I'm going

49:54

back and forth in my calendar. Then I

49:57

have a kid's dentist appointment that I have

49:59

to like resched. of the call and says,

50:01

hey, can you take a quick look at

50:03

my resume, whatever it is? So I love

50:06

that frame also, that, you know, every

50:08

yes can lead to many more yeses.

50:10

Or if it's not a hell yes, it's

50:12

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51:16

being brutal is also delivering feedback. And

51:19

that could be challenging for young leaders.

51:21

Being honest in a way that actually

51:23

helps someone else grow can feel brutal

51:26

in the delivery, can feel brutal in

51:28

receiving, but ultimately can be that turning

51:30

point in your career to really change

51:32

your trajectory. AJ Brutal can be kind

51:35

and I will tell you about a moment

51:37

where I was sitting getting a performance review

51:39

I think at this point Google did them

51:41

quarterly it was like constantly we'd be doing

51:43

them we'd be done with one cycle and

51:46

start the next one and I remember sitting

51:48

there and it was like seven minutes of

51:50

wind up and build up until my manager

51:53

finally told me my rating and I was

51:55

so nervous I was sweating and I was

51:57

scared and and I don't even remember what

51:59

a rating was, but I do remember

52:01

feeling like this feels terrible. So

52:03

brutal is even if it's a bad

52:06

rating or you're telling somebody that you're

52:08

eliminating their role, which is such hard

52:10

use to deliver, deliver that news within

52:12

the first 90 seconds of that meeting, tear

52:14

off the band-aid, ouch, move on, and you can

52:17

do it with empathy, you can do

52:19

it with thoughtfulness. And that's not just

52:21

like sharing a feedback rating, it's also

52:23

just day-to-day feedback. So AJ, if we

52:25

got off this podcasting this podcast and

52:27

our like, and our like. Well, you know,

52:29

I didn't think this was great. You

52:32

weren't a great communicator. You'd

52:34

be scratching your head. Like,

52:36

what, what does she mean? And,

52:38

and what, how you, how is

52:40

she defining communicator? But if I'm

52:42

brutal, and I say, you talked 30% of the

52:44

time, and I would expect a

52:46

podcast host to talk 10% at

52:48

the time, like that's concrete, but

52:50

that's concrete, and that's something you

52:53

can work with. It is so

52:55

true. And oftentimes we try to, you

52:57

know. Compliment sandwiches, speaking superlatives,

52:59

and we don't add any concrete

53:01

examples or ways that that person

53:03

receiving the feedback can truly improve.

53:05

And we're doing them a disservice because so

53:07

many of these situations, everyone's looking for

53:09

growth. I mean, if you're listening to

53:11

this, everyone's looking for growth. I mean,

53:13

if you're listening to this book, which

53:15

we encourage everyone to do, you're looking

53:18

for growth and you need those moments,

53:20

those gut check moments where you get the

53:22

brutal feedback, and you get the brutal feedback.

53:24

I have a quick framework for this

53:26

is called safe. I have to stay

53:29

safe as a manager when you're

53:31

giving feedback. So S-A-F-E is

53:33

setting, action, feeling, and effect.

53:35

So setting in this podcast,

53:38

let's just stick with

53:40

this ridiculous hypothetical example,

53:42

in the podcast, let's say I'm

53:44

sharing this with you two weeks down

53:47

the line, in the podcast that we

53:49

did together, AJ. So that's the setting,

53:51

right? Like not, hey, you are a

53:54

poor communicator, setting is like, this is

53:56

the specific situation where it happened, the

53:58

client meeting, the phone call. actual podcast,

54:00

right? The action is I felt that

54:02

you spoke about 30% of the time

54:04

when I was expecting you to speak

54:06

about 10% of the time. That is

54:08

the specific action that you took. Then I

54:11

check in with you and I say, and this part

54:13

is so key, and this is the

54:15

differentiator of how to give like brutal

54:17

but thoughtful feedback. F is feeling. So aging.

54:19

How are you feeling? What was going on

54:21

for you during that podcast? And you might

54:23

then say, oh, well, gosh, I felt like,

54:25

you know, because of the fires in LA,

54:27

I didn't have as much time to prepare

54:29

as I would have normally. And so I

54:31

wasn't quite buttoned up enough. And I kind

54:33

of found myself like rambling, like whatever it

54:35

was. That's an important one to check with

54:37

the person. And then you might give really

54:39

good context. And then you close with E

54:41

and that's a fact. if I were the

54:43

manager and I were in charge of evaluating

54:46

you on your podcast performance, then I

54:48

might say something like, and this is

54:50

kind of a big deal, and it

54:52

could impact your quarterly rating, or I

54:54

might say, oh, agent, you are a

54:56

rock star and you're always so on

54:58

your game, and I know this was

55:00

just a little blip. This is really

55:02

kind of below the fold feedback, not

55:04

above the fold feedback, meaning like the foot

55:06

on a newspaper, you know, top line headline,

55:08

versus like a tiny little footnote at the

55:10

bottom. you have an opportunity to share how

55:12

you are feeling and you know if this

55:14

is a big deal or a small deal

55:16

with safe as a at the setting action

55:19

feeling and effect. I know in going through

55:21

these traits there are going to be

55:23

some members of our audience who are

55:25

feeling like they're in an environment where

55:27

they can't express any of these traits

55:29

they've allowed these bars to not only

55:31

close themselves in but sometimes it's the

55:33

environment that creates this and we get this

55:36

question a lot of when to leave you know

55:38

you feel like you're doing everything you can but

55:40

you don't really feel great in this job market

55:42

currently around leaving. So I know that you have

55:44

a great framework for really diagnosing when it might

55:47

be time for you to leave the flip framework

55:49

that I think would be super helpful for audience.

55:51

As much as I hate to drop two acronyms back

55:53

to back on all you listening, I'm going to drop

55:55

two acronyms back to back on all of you listening.

55:57

All right, so how do you know when it's time

55:59

to leave? F-L-I-P fun learning impact and personal.

56:02

Are you having fun in your job

56:04

or are you rolling your eyes in

56:06

every team meeting, thinking, oh, tried that

56:09

six quarters ago, that's never going to

56:11

work? I is for impact. And that's

56:13

your business impact because if your business

56:15

impact isn't there, it's not going to

56:18

bode well for you or your career.

56:20

if you're moving the business, you're moving

56:22

your career. So that's, I, I, this

56:25

is out of order, that is I

56:27

for impact. Let's sneak that Ellen there,

56:29

that's for learning, and this is step

56:32

function learning, not just incremental learning, because

56:34

most people have some level of incremental

56:36

learning, every day, especially depending on your

56:39

industry. But like with AI, everyone has

56:41

incremental learning every day. But you want

56:43

step function learning, you want a couple

56:46

emails in your inbox that give you

56:48

butterflies in your butterflies in your stomach,

56:50

because you don't quite know the right

56:53

answer yet. You want to feel like

56:55

you're on a project and you feel

56:57

like you're out of your comfort zone

57:00

and then you finish that project and

57:02

you're like, oh my gosh, that kicks

57:04

my butt, but now I'm such a

57:07

better, you know, technical person or communicator

57:09

or relationship builder because, like, just been

57:11

put to the test on skills that

57:14

you didn't feel like you had previously.

57:16

So that's F for fun, L for

57:18

learning, I for impact, and then P

57:21

for learning, I for impact, and then

57:23

P for learning. That's valid too. Let's

57:25

say that you just found out you

57:28

were pregnant and you wanted to just

57:30

kind of stay where you are for

57:32

the moment because you've got a lot

57:35

of other stuff that are going to

57:37

be a lot of other things that

57:39

will be changing in your life. Or

57:42

maybe you want to move across the

57:44

country with your partner or to another

57:46

country and it makes sense to change

57:49

roles because of that. So what's happening

57:51

in your personal life is a valid

57:53

reason to stay or go. And by

57:56

the way, the other thing that underpins

57:58

all of this is your manager. Your

58:00

manager can make or break your happiness

58:03

at work. It's kind of like, you

58:05

know, sex in the city, he's just

58:07

not that into you. If your manager

58:09

is just not that into you, the

58:12

piece out Pronto, because it's not going

58:14

to get... better. They're not going to

58:16

all of a sudden become a super

58:19

fan and if your manager isn't an

58:21

advocate, your career is going to install

58:23

real fast. Going back to what we

58:26

shared earlier, that invisibility starts subtly and

58:28

all of a sudden it snowballs to

58:30

a place where you're not getting any

58:33

chance for visibility for promotion. Yeah, definitely.

58:35

This is such a fun conversation. Jenny,

58:37

thank you so much for stopping by.

58:40

Where can our audience find out more

58:42

about the book? And I know you

58:44

have some great tools and resources to

58:47

share as well. book to purchase it.

58:49

Well, you can purchase it anywhere. Books

58:51

are sold. And I have a newsletter

58:54

that comes out weekly with like under

58:56

a two minute career tip, how to

58:58

thrive professionally and go after what you

59:01

want and covers everything from negotiations to

59:03

relationship building to succinct email writing and

59:05

all sorts of real practical stuff to

59:08

build relationship with your boss, with your

59:10

peers, with everybody. And that's It's genuine.com/newsletter.

59:12

I'm also on all the socials. I

59:15

post every day on LinkedIn so you

59:17

can find me there too. Great, thank

59:19

you so much for swinging by. Yeah,

59:22

what a pleasure. Such a joy to

59:24

be here and have this conversation. Thank

59:26

you. Hi, this is Ron Palermo and

59:29

I'm a corporate lawyer. Taking the X

59:31

Factor Accelerator is one of the best

59:33

decisions I have ever made. If you

59:36

want to consistently show up as a

59:38

high-value person, someone who makes a great

59:40

first impression, effortlessly makes new friends and

59:43

connections and enjoys deep and authentic relationships,

59:45

X Factor Accelerator will get you there.

59:47

The AOC team is passionate about what

59:50

they do and are totally committed to

59:52

your success. and most importantly they know

59:54

how to get the results you want.

59:57

My only regret is not taking the

59:59

program sooner. If you are serious about showing

1:00:01

up as the best version of yourself,

1:00:04

I urge you to sign up for

1:00:06

the X Factor Accelerator, you will be so

1:00:08

glad you did. Thank you, Ron. It was

1:00:10

a pleasure working with you too and

1:00:12

good luck to you and all your

1:00:14

future endeavors. If you've gotten value out

1:00:17

of this or any of our

1:00:19

podcasts, head on over to your

1:00:21

favorite podcast player and rate and

1:00:23

review the show. It would mean the

1:00:25

world to me and AJ and it helps

1:00:27

others find the show. All right

1:00:30

before we head

1:00:32

out a huge.

1:00:34

Thank you to

1:00:36

our producers

1:00:39

Michael Harold

1:00:41

and Eric

1:00:43

Montgomery till

1:00:45

next week

1:00:47

go out

1:00:49

there and

1:00:51

make it

1:00:53

amazing