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delivery were not already

1:26

important, which it is, AI may make

1:28

delivery even more important. Because

1:31

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1:33

great content, accessible to anybody,

1:35

anytime, anywhere. So if everyone

1:37

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1:40

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1:42

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1:44

what's gonna set you apart? Your

1:46

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1:48

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1:50

the weird spam email that was crafted

1:52

by open AI's trained chat bot that

1:55

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1:57

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1:59

someone. and speak with

2:01

idiosyncrasies and in the

2:03

moment agility and spontaneity.

2:06

Welcome to the Articharm

2:08

podcast where we break

2:10

down the science of

2:12

powerful communication and winning mindsets

2:14

so you have the cheat code

2:16

to succeed with people. Every episode

2:18

is jam-packed with actionable steps to

2:20

unlock the hidden superpowers inside of

2:23

you. Level up with us each

2:25

week by listening to interviews with

2:27

the best in business, psychology and

2:29

relationships. We distill thousands of hours

2:31

of research in the most effective

2:33

tools and the latest science so

2:35

you can start winning today. Let's

2:37

face it, in order to be

2:39

seen and heard your communication needs

2:42

to cut through the noise and

2:44

we're going to show you how.

2:46

I'm AJ, successfully recovered introvert entrepreneur

2:48

and self-development junkie. And I'm Johnny

2:50

Zubak, former touring musician, promoter, rock

2:52

and roller, and co-founder here at

2:54

the Artich Arm. And for the

2:56

last 15 years, we've trained thousands

2:58

of top performers and teams from

3:00

every background. We have dedicated our

3:02

lives to teaching men and women

3:04

all they need to know about

3:06

communication, networking, and relationships. You shouldn't

3:08

have to settle for anything less

3:10

than extraordinary. All

3:13

right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're

3:15

talking with Michael Chad Heppner on

3:17

how to eliminate filler words and

3:19

speak with confidence in any setting.

3:21

Michael's been teaching communication for 15 years

3:24

and is the founder and CEO of

3:26

GK training. He has coached presidential

3:28

candidates, prominent CEOs, and Ivy League

3:30

deans on their communication skills, and

3:33

his new book is titled, Don't

3:35

Say Um, How to Communicate Effectively to

3:37

Live a Better Life. Today Michael

3:39

joins us to share why you

3:42

need to master storytelling for career

3:44

advancement and a simple

3:46

strategy to beat self-consciousness

3:49

on stage or on Zoom. All right, welcome

3:51

to the show Michael. It's so great

3:53

to have you. Thank you. Great to be

3:55

here. So, like, um, Johnny and I were

3:57

trying to figure out how to start the

3:59

show. And this is a common complaint

4:01

that a lot of our clients

4:03

have of being tongue tied using

4:05

filler words and especially now with

4:07

Zoom communication being quite prevalent. We're

4:09

all starting to realize what happens when

4:12

we aren't communicating clearly and concisely.

4:14

What's going on underneath those um filler

4:16

words that are holding us back

4:18

from being master communicators? Yeah, the

4:20

point is not that you can never

4:23

say um or like or kind

4:25

of or sorta. The point is that

4:27

you can't say them chronically more

4:29

in certain situations than in others.

4:31

So as an example, if you say

4:33

I'm every 20 seconds when you're

4:35

just speaking freely and having a free-form

4:38

conversation, but as soon as you

4:40

feel the focus go totally to

4:42

you in like a presentation situation or

4:44

something, if it was I'm skyrocket

4:46

to one every three seconds as an

4:48

example, the ratio, that difference between

4:50

the two of that's what you're

4:52

trying to address. Because when those umms

4:55

and us and likes and sort

4:57

of come out from discomfort and self-consciousness,

4:59

as opposed to actually being focused

5:01

on trying to reach the other

5:03

person, it's that gap that we're trying

5:05

to address. And what it typically

5:07

is, is that you're not actually thinking

5:10

about what to say, you're just

5:12

trying to look good in those

5:14

situations, therefore you open the mouth and

5:16

a whole bunch of unintentional stuff

5:18

just tumbles out. Yeah,

5:20

and it's a very awkward feeling

5:22

when you catch yourself, but at

5:24

the same time it's difficult to

5:26

then get back on track in

5:28

the moment, especially in those really

5:31

high-stakes environment, like a job interview,

5:33

a presentation on stage, or even

5:35

a zoom call where you have

5:37

a bunch of faces staring back

5:39

at you and you want to

5:41

be in control of your communication.

5:43

Yeah, absolutely. And what I suggest

5:45

that people build a habit of

5:47

doing is that it's not... unforgettable

5:49

to have those stumbles. What is

5:51

unforgettable is to let that stumble

5:54

completely sink everything you're doing. So

5:56

if you make a stumble, you

5:58

have a... or a mistake or

6:00

a challenge, you can simply stop,

6:02

correct it, and then course, correction,

6:04

continue. And we do this in

6:06

life all the time, actually. If

6:08

we say something wrong, I mean,

6:10

imagine giving your friend direction somewhere,

6:12

and you said the wrong direction.

6:14

And all of a sudden it

6:16

occurs to you, wait, they're going

6:19

to get stuck in traffic, you

6:21

would simply fix the thing, and

6:23

then continue. So I encourage this

6:25

same sort of focus on agility.

6:27

in real life too when it

6:29

comes to speaking. It's not the

6:31

end of the world to say

6:33

the wrong word or an inaccurate

6:35

word. It is if you therefore

6:37

let the entire interview or high

6:39

stakes communication situation get completely sidetracked

6:42

because of it. Now let's dive

6:44

a little deeper there because you

6:46

have a great 3F system in

6:48

that moment and we've all fumbled

6:50

and felt that internally and let

6:52

our nerves overrun the situation. What

6:54

can we do specifically with your

6:56

3F rule? that allows us to

6:58

break through and continue to hold

7:00

the audience's attention. Yeah, let's look

7:02

at each one one by one.

7:04

Fake it, feature it, and fix

7:07

it. And yes, I've made it

7:09

illiterative and therefore hopefully easy to

7:11

remember. But the first one is

7:13

a crucial one, which is fake

7:15

it. I'm not suggesting every time

7:17

in life we make a mistake.

7:19

We have to bring attention to

7:21

it. If it's not throwing you

7:23

off. If it's not relevant to

7:25

the conversation and the folks who

7:27

are with you haven't actually noticed,

7:30

fine, fake it. Keep going. But

7:32

if it is threatening to throw

7:34

you off or it's material to

7:36

the conversation, you have two other

7:38

very good Fs. You can feature

7:40

it or fix it. Fix it

7:42

means you simply correct it and

7:44

then get back on track. Feature

7:46

it is a next level of

7:48

sophistication. That means you actually position

7:50

it as a good thing. So,

7:52

you know, I'll make one up

7:55

right now. The chart you're looking

7:57

at is, oh, wait a minute,

7:59

actually, that's two years old. that's

8:01

actually a very good mistake because

8:03

the shocking thing is if we

8:05

looked at this year's chart it's

8:07

exactly the same these numbers haven't

8:09

moved so you very subtly take

8:11

in that you know potentially existential

8:13

threat of a mistake and turn

8:15

it into a strength to show

8:18

yourself to be even more agile

8:20

and mean even more spontaneous. And

8:22

what I love about that example

8:24

is the pause. So many of

8:26

us feel this internal clock speeding

8:28

us up in communication, but effective

8:30

orators know how important pausing is

8:32

and cadence to your communication to

8:34

allow your mind to catch up

8:36

with what you're communicating. And Johnny

8:38

and I were recently on a

8:40

military base running a training, and

8:43

they were asking us, well, how

8:45

long is too awkward of a

8:47

pause? I feel with the video

8:49

work exercise that we do with

8:51

all of our participants, like that

8:53

pause felt really long. And then

8:55

when we share the video, it's

8:57

actually much shorter than we internally

8:59

think. What's going on under the

9:01

surface with that inability to judge

9:03

the pause and understand the cadence

9:06

of communication? Yeah, well this I

9:08

call the perception to reality gap.

9:10

And very often I will show

9:12

folks an equation and I will

9:14

say P is not equal to

9:16

R. And the letters of course

9:18

stand for those words, perception and

9:20

reality. Sometimes in life our perception.

9:22

is accurate. It does match reality

9:24

and a lot of time it

9:26

doesn't. Think of a funny example.

9:28

You go to like get a

9:31

massage or you go to a

9:33

doctor or a chiropractor and you

9:35

walk in like this and you

9:37

think you're actually, well, if you're

9:39

watching the podcast, you'll see this,

9:41

if you're just listening, I have

9:43

one shoulder about three inches higher

9:45

than the other. And the, you

9:47

know, doctor or masseuse or chiropractor,

9:49

whoever says, can you stand normally?

9:51

And you say, I am. And

9:54

then at the end of the

9:56

session, the massage or whatever, you

9:58

realize, oh my God, my shoulder

10:00

was so tight, I didn't even

10:02

recognize how it was holding my

10:04

body. So... very frequently we can't

10:06

actually see what we're doing from

10:08

the outside because of course we're

10:10

living inside of ourselves those pauses

10:12

that are maybe a half second

10:14

feel like eternity so the point

10:16

is not that you have to

10:19

absolutely dial in your perception to

10:21

be equal to reality you may

10:23

not be able to do that

10:25

instead just build some muscle memory

10:27

of recognizing how you can perform

10:29

better knowing that your internal clock

10:31

might never be precisely accurate. People

10:33

get terrible coaching about this all

10:35

the time. I mean, the question

10:37

that you asked or that was

10:39

positioned to you, I should say,

10:42

how long is too long? Well,

10:44

we'll be tempting, wouldn't it, to

10:46

do a whole bunch of research

10:48

and say, AI says a pause

10:50

of 2.37 seconds is too long?

10:52

That'll be tempting. That'll be nice.

10:54

It's not true. The point is

10:56

you can tolerate silence or hold

10:58

a pause however long. you can

11:00

get your audience to tolerate that

11:02

silence. And that has a lot

11:04

to do with all the other

11:07

ways you're communicating, how you're using

11:09

your voice, how you're using your

11:11

eye contact, how you're using your

11:13

body, even the top you're speaking

11:15

about. It varies tremendously. So the

11:17

first order of business is build

11:19

comfort with tolerating silence, and then

11:21

over time see if you can

11:23

tolerate more and more and more

11:25

and more. A lot of our

11:27

audience are highly analytical professionals. So

11:30

how can they identify some of

11:32

the unconscious habits that may be

11:34

undermining their communication clarity? Yeah, two

11:36

answers. If you're highly analytical, get

11:38

accurate evidence and there's nothing that

11:40

is more accurate than using your

11:42

phone. Record yourself. And now your

11:44

first objection is going to be

11:46

like, I hate watching myself. Okay.

11:48

If you're really analytical. Guess what?

11:50

You need the analytical evidence and

11:52

the footage. doesn't lie. So you

11:55

can see what you're actually doing,

11:57

how quickly you're speaking, how many

11:59

non-fluencies you do have, how often

12:01

you look away, those sorts of

12:03

things. Along with that, a second

12:05

is begin to realize that it's

12:07

not all about your brain and

12:09

being analytical. And by this I

12:11

mean, we think that speaking is

12:13

akin to thinking. If I think

12:15

of smart stuff, I'm going to

12:18

say smart words. But that completely

12:20

misses how deeply physical communication actually

12:22

is. Takes more than 120 muscles

12:24

to use a statistic to appeal

12:26

to those analytical listeners. It takes

12:28

over 120 muscles to speak, to

12:30

turn air in a sound and

12:32

then sound into words. So if

12:34

you're never bringing any real focus

12:36

on physical aspects of communication or

12:38

even more kinesthetic learning... You're leaving

12:40

a huge part of your communication

12:43

arsenal totally untapped. And when we

12:45

started the coaching company about 20

12:47

years ago, I had an opportunity

12:49

to join Johnny in front of

12:51

the room and I had a

12:53

terrible fear of public speaking in

12:55

graduate school. I felt like I

12:57

was stammering and unclear in my

12:59

communication in front of the room

13:01

presenting just data and analysis for

13:03

my experiments. And I remember Johnny

13:06

pulling me aside as I was...

13:08

feverishly trying to figure out how

13:10

to get the content to be

13:12

as perfect as possible. And he

13:14

said, AJ, it's not about the

13:16

content, it's about the delivery. Johnny's

13:18

background being a rock and roller

13:20

and having performed on stage, he

13:22

knew that missing a note or

13:24

maybe being a little off key,

13:26

as long as the delivery was

13:28

there, the content piece wasn't actually

13:31

as important as we think internally.

13:33

And that really shifted the way

13:35

that I viewed getting in front

13:37

of the room. recognizing that it's

13:39

about holding the audience's attention, making

13:41

it about them, getting them involved,

13:43

and less so about the exact

13:45

words or phrasings or examples that

13:47

I use in my presentation. And

13:49

we've had clients come back through

13:51

the program two, three times, and

13:54

they've noticed differences in the style

13:56

of the presentation, the difference in

13:58

the content that resonated in that

14:00

example of them coming through the

14:02

program. And I've shared numerous times

14:04

with their audience that happens. Like,

14:06

I understand the concepts now inside

14:08

and out. I don't worry about

14:10

the concepts. I focus on the

14:12

delivery. But oftentimes when we're getting

14:14

started in these situations where you

14:16

have to present or be on

14:19

stage. We get so focused on

14:21

the content first, and you talk

14:23

a lot about the interplay of

14:25

the two, and how we can

14:27

really start to shift to focus

14:29

on our delivery, and how that

14:31

actually improves the content. So I'd

14:33

love for you to unpack that

14:35

for our audience, because I think

14:37

it's a huge mind shift for

14:39

them, especially those who are public

14:42

speaking. What a gift he gave

14:44

you those years ago, because it

14:46

totally changed your life. And in

14:48

fact, I am such a big

14:50

believer in what Johnny told you,

14:52

that I wrote a dang book.

14:54

that is 270 pages and not

14:56

a single page is focused explicitly

14:58

on content. The entire thing is

15:00

focused on delivery. Because to your

15:02

point, not only does it matter

15:04

a ton, it's also the fastest

15:07

way, in my experience anyway, to

15:09

unlock better content too. So the

15:11

idea here, the concept is what

15:13

I call the virtuous cycle of

15:15

good communication. And the idea there

15:17

is that we all know that

15:19

there is a virtuous or a

15:21

vicious cycle. from contents to delivery.

15:23

Meaning, if I'm unprepared, I don't

15:25

know what I'm talking about, I'm

15:27

not going to deliver it as

15:29

well. But it also goes the

15:32

other way. If you just build

15:34

the delivery skills to deliver things

15:36

better, not only will it sound

15:38

better, but you will even unlock

15:40

better content. You'll think of better

15:42

stuff to say. I mean, so

15:44

the classic version is if you

15:46

actually breathe in... Instead of saying

15:48

um like the title of the

15:50

book don't say um you breathe

15:52

in tolerate silence and Then speak

15:55

one your voice is going to

15:57

sound a lot better when you

15:59

do speak but number two in

16:01

that pause it slows you down

16:03

that brings silence to your speech

16:05

etc in that pause you can

16:07

be thinking of what the heck

16:09

to say next and this is

16:11

one tiny micro adjustment but over

16:13

time kind of like a butterfly

16:15

effect in fact you begin to

16:17

drive this virtuous cycle harder and

16:20

stronger and better and soon both

16:22

your content and your delivery are

16:24

unlocking real-time and getting better and

16:26

better and better Go

18:32

to shopify.com/charm now to

18:35

grow your business no

18:37

matter what stage you're

18:39

in. shopify.com/

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charm. Is hiring challenging?

18:44

Yes! Do you love a challenge?

21:54

I think also for the delivery

21:56

aspect of it. You can't cover

21:58

all of the bases when you

22:00

go up to deliver that content.

22:02

So you have to decide what

22:04

is it that I'm going to

22:06

aim for here? Is it going

22:08

to be making sure that this

22:10

content is delivered clearly and that

22:12

everyone can understand it and retain

22:14

this information? Okay, well, what does

22:17

that look like? Right? So you

22:19

have to think about what's the

22:21

vehicle that's going to deliver that

22:23

content in that way. Or I

22:25

can go up there knowing that

22:27

if I'm having fun, the audience

22:29

is going to have fun, so

22:31

that takes care of the people

22:33

who are engaged, so who's left?

22:35

The skeptics, the naysayers, the people

22:37

who want to punch your holes

22:39

and things. So they have the

22:41

rest of the time afterwards to

22:43

barrage you with questions to see

22:45

if whether or not what you're

22:47

saying is... true right works or

22:49

that you know your content. So

22:51

this way you're dividing it up

22:53

where I'm going to handle the

22:55

folks who are there who are

22:57

engaged and happy to hear what

22:59

I have to say and then

23:01

we'll move on to the skeptics

23:03

so that we can have the

23:05

discussions that they need to have

23:07

and think about it. If they

23:09

paid to see you or they're

23:11

going to an event, did they

23:13

have to take time out? They

23:15

want it to be worth it.

23:17

They want to be entertained. So,

23:19

you know, for myself and AJ,

23:21

that's always been the focus. If

23:23

we're having fun up there, then

23:25

everyone's going to enjoy those themselves.

23:27

They're going to retain that information.

23:29

And then we could take time

23:31

out afterwards for the tougher cases,

23:33

for the more analytical who want

23:35

to look at things more granually.

23:37

It's funny. I have a page

23:39

in the book where I have

23:41

people a circle, one thing in

23:43

a row, in a split column.

23:45

And the reason I do this

23:47

activity is because people often have

23:49

a totally arbitrary... idea of what

23:51

is a high-stakes situation. And to

23:53

your point, Johnny, where all the

23:55

fun goes out of it. So

23:57

for some people, public speaking is

23:59

if you're standing, but if you're

24:01

seated, you're fine. And for some

24:03

people, public speaking is you're live

24:05

in the room, but if I

24:07

can be on Zoom, then I'm

24:09

fine. And for some people, it's

24:11

like, if it's a handful of

24:13

people, I'm fine. But if it's

24:15

more than 10, all of a

24:17

sudden, it counts as public speaking.

24:19

And the more you can begin

24:21

to blur this idea and even

24:23

call into question the very concept

24:25

of public speaking, and just think

24:27

of it instead as speaking, the

24:29

more likely you're going to be

24:31

able to do exactly what you're

24:33

talking about, AJ, which is have

24:35

some fun and light-heartedness and some

24:37

idiosyncrasy to being in the room

24:39

with a bunch of fellow human

24:41

being. And when we think about

24:43

improving communication, and Johnny and I

24:46

laugh about this all the time,

24:48

we get these questions in the

24:50

classroom as well, there's so much

24:52

bad advice out there. so much

24:54

pointing us in the wrong direction

24:56

and actually making us worse communicators

24:58

in the process. What are some

25:00

misconceptions that you're constantly dealing with

25:02

in training your clients and recognizing

25:04

that are leading people astray when

25:06

they're actually trying to improve their

25:08

communication? Yeah. Most of the advice

25:10

people get goes wrong in three

25:12

ways and sometimes they get all

25:14

three. So the first is they

25:16

get a bunch of thoughts oppression.

25:18

The reason I call the book

25:20

don't say um is because it's

25:22

a little bit of a trick.

25:24

Everyone hears that. Everyone wants to

25:26

not say um. As soon as

25:28

they open the book in the

25:30

preface, I say, that's thought suppression.

25:32

That title was a trick. You

25:34

will now learn how to avoid

25:36

saying um, but I never want

25:38

you to tell yourself don't that

25:40

thing again. Thought suppression is a

25:42

pink elephant of course. Don't think

25:44

about it. But we hear this

25:46

in communication training all the time.

25:48

Don't talk too fast. Don't be

25:50

nervous. Don't say um. So as

25:52

soon as you get it don't,

25:54

very likely all you've done is

25:56

make the person think about the

25:58

thing they're not supposed to do

26:00

and also themselves. which is the

26:02

exact opposite of what they should

26:04

be doing. Usually that thought suppression

26:06

is followed by some totally general

26:08

and vague thing, like just be

26:10

yourself, or just be conversational, or

26:12

just be natural. So often I

26:14

will tell people if the advice

26:16

has a just at the beginning

26:18

of it, it's probably not actionable

26:20

enough to actually do something with.

26:22

And then the third thing is

26:24

that people often get a mental

26:26

reminder. for what is the physical

26:28

activity of speaking. So that might

26:30

sound like, remember to breathe. So

26:32

you add these things all up

26:34

together. Let's say you have a

26:36

chronically fast talker. You add all

26:38

three together. You say, don't talk

26:40

too fast. Just slow down. Remember

26:42

to breathe. That person is very

26:44

likely to speak just as fast,

26:46

if not even though a tiny

26:48

bit faster, when they go in

26:50

the next situation. Now, that will

26:52

be bad enough. If it wasn't

26:54

effective, but here's the real tragedy.

26:56

Not only is it not effective,

26:58

but then after the person fails

27:00

to slow down for the upteenth

27:02

time, they feel bad about themselves

27:04

because they weren't able to execute

27:06

this really sound poaching. And so

27:08

therefore, they get an even more

27:10

of like a shame spy role

27:12

or a self-critique that doesn't help

27:14

anybody. Obviously all of that turns

27:17

us inward. And we talked a

27:19

lot about how important it is

27:21

to entertain the audience, and the

27:23

audience is actually there to learn

27:25

something. Again, whether it's that job

27:27

interviewer they want to learn, are

27:29

you a good fit? That first

27:31

date? Hey, do I want a

27:33

second date with you? Or the

27:35

public presentation, the audience is a

27:37

big part of the equation. Everything

27:39

that we're hearing is focus on

27:41

yourself. Don't do this, don't do

27:43

that, be self-conscious. So what can

27:45

we do to start to move

27:47

away from being self-conscious and start

27:49

to transition towards being focused on

27:51

the other, recognizing the importance of

27:53

the audience? Yeah, well it's a

27:55

lot of what you all, I

27:57

mean, this is kind of the

27:59

mantra that... you be, you're drumbeat,

28:01

which is charm is not all

28:03

about possessing a whole bunch of

28:05

magical qualities or something. Charm is

28:07

about the feeling very often that

28:09

you engender in the other person. And

28:11

you know, you speak about the

28:13

people through history, people talk about

28:15

being charismatic, and often the thing they will

28:17

say is they made me feel like I was

28:19

the only person in the room. So the challenge

28:22

here would simply be. Try to figure

28:24

out what your quality of listening is

28:26

when you're really focused on the other

28:28

person. Okay, so imagine you're helping a

28:30

dear friend who is going through a

28:32

crisis. Now try to imagine what your

28:35

hands are doing, what your eye contact

28:37

is doing, how quickly you're speaking,

28:39

how much you're talking versus listening

28:41

in terms of the ratio. And

28:43

then what you want to do is just

28:45

like someone studying to your point

28:47

about analytical audiences, study

28:49

how you communicate in those

28:51

situations. and replicated

28:54

when you're

28:56

having a harder

28:58

time being other focused.

29:01

And that means

29:03

you take on

29:05

all those same

29:07

behaviors you do so well

29:09

when other focused

29:12

and do

29:14

them when

29:16

you're more

29:18

self-focused or

29:20

self-conscious. Coincidentally,

29:22

those are the same three reasons you should

29:24

come to Jack in the box right

29:26

now. At Jack, every bite is a

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atlassian.com. Atlassian. Yeah,

30:04

I find oftentimes in these scenarios

30:07

that we run in our classrooms

30:09

that the addition of the camera adds

30:11

a layer and Pandemic forced all of

30:13

us now to be camera ready Johnny and

30:15

I when we first started the podcast

30:18

back in the day and we moved

30:20

to video we recognized that well,

30:22

we needed some coaching in this

30:24

area because we didn't know how

30:26

to present ourselves on camera and

30:28

we felt that pressure and I find

30:30

even with clients we pull out

30:32

the camera and immediately they go

30:34

inward and they're like worried about my touching

30:36

myself too much, how's my hair, all these

30:39

other things that we often don't think about

30:41

when we're in just a normal

30:43

in-person conversation with someone that we're

30:45

interested in or someone that we know

30:48

well. So let's talk a little bit

30:50

about the dynamic of the camera because

30:52

I know our audience and certainly our

30:54

clients feel that pressure as they're finding

30:56

themselves presenting more and more on camera, especially

30:59

in careers where they never thought they would

31:01

be sitting on Zoom so much. Well, I

31:03

mean, you guys probably unlocked this scene. I,

31:05

of course, have gotten to know you from

31:07

the digital footprint you have out there in

31:09

the world, but I've never been in one

31:12

of your sessions, but I bet you've discovered

31:14

this in your sessions that the flip side

31:16

of that negative aspect of the

31:18

camera is a gift, because you all

31:20

obviously set up a very friendly laboratory kind

31:22

of vibe in the classroom. Pretty

31:25

quickly people lose their nerves, and

31:27

the camera is a great way

31:29

to replicate that same experience of

31:31

like adrenaline. and to do a kind of

31:33

over and over again. So in a way,

31:35

it's a good teacher to have that resistance

31:37

to push against. But yes, we all have

31:39

to be more camera ready than we

31:41

used to. And I give people some

31:44

really simple suggestions on this, which is you

31:46

know how to frame and help someone else

31:48

look good in a photograph. Do it for

31:50

yourself. So if you're taking a snapshot

31:52

of somebody, you never shoot them at

31:54

a terrible angle. You make sure the

31:57

light source is looking good. This is

31:59

not rocket science. necessarily do the same

32:01

thing you would do for a friend,

32:04

but do it for yourself. And you

32:06

could just do screen grabs and things

32:08

like that and look and see what

32:10

does it actually look like and ask

32:12

yourself, would I let my friend take

32:14

that picture or not? One of the

32:17

tricks that I picked up on, and

32:19

even now we're doing this virtual session,

32:21

is hiding self-view or shrinking self-view. And

32:23

I find so many of us get

32:25

so focused on how we appear on

32:28

the camera and that's all that we're

32:30

paying attention to. and it can be

32:32

really helpful with a simple setting change

32:34

to just remove the video view or

32:36

shrink the video view so that you

32:38

can see more of your audience and

32:41

you can actually see their body language

32:43

and their response to your communication versus

32:45

that constant consistent self-reflection we have by

32:47

looking at our self-view. And I know

32:49

for many of our listeners and clients

32:52

as well they struggle with the idea

32:54

of practice your public speaking in front

32:56

of a mirror. Because now they're just

32:58

staring at themselves and again, they're getting

33:00

more internally focused than actually on what

33:02

their delivery is for the audience receiving

33:05

it. And when I was preparing for

33:07

a talk, I think it was like

33:09

seven or eight years ago, I was

33:11

a new audience, I was testing some

33:13

new material and I was really nervous

33:16

about how it was going. And I

33:18

was flipping through the slides, flipping through

33:20

the sides, making mental notes, okay, I

33:22

have a story here, okay, this is

33:24

Our photographer was in the room and

33:26

he was like, hey, Jay, I could

33:29

see you're getting a little bothered, like

33:31

just present to me, just say it

33:33

out loud. And I actually just walked

33:35

through the whole talk out loud, made

33:37

pauses and adjustments, okay, I actually want

33:40

to say this, but I verbalized it.

33:42

And I found that to be so

33:44

impactful then when I got on stage

33:46

with bright lights and a huge audience

33:48

in front of me. work things out

33:50

in our head and listen to that

33:53

internal monologue and no shift this or

33:55

don't do that. But it's actually really

33:57

helpful to verbalize and practice verbi- what

33:59

you want to say before you get

34:01

on stage, before you turn on the

34:04

camera. Yeah, you're talking about the out

34:06

loud drafting tool that I teach in

34:08

the chapter on preparing. And you're exactly

34:10

right, which is we all make this

34:12

huge mistake where we spend all of

34:14

our time typing and designing things by

34:17

writing it out relentlessly, but you have

34:19

to remember you're not giving someone a

34:21

white cooker. You're not handing them a

34:23

PDF. You're going to be... saying words

34:25

out loud. So it would stand to

34:28

reason that you should prepare for the

34:30

situation by getting some of those words

34:32

in your head and in your body

34:34

by saying them out loud. So the

34:36

tool works like this essentially instead of

34:38

just going right to writing immediately, talk

34:41

it out first. And then once you've

34:43

done that, then you can shift and

34:45

make some notes, but begin by speaking.

34:47

And I find that this really exactly

34:49

does what you what you experience, which

34:52

is... people connect the material more, they

34:54

realize they know it better than they

34:56

thought, they frame it in the way

34:58

that people actually speak as opposed to

35:00

they write, how they write, I should

35:02

say. So it's a very powerful tool

35:05

and it seems like it's been helpful

35:07

to you. I want to ask a

35:09

different and slightly humorous question for a

35:11

second. Do you all teach in your

35:13

sessions that people should practice presenting in

35:16

front of a mirror? We don't teach

35:18

in front of a mirror. So I

35:20

don't either. This is why I'm saying

35:22

it, okay? I don't think it's good

35:24

advice. But my question is, where did

35:27

it come from? Like some of these

35:29

things that are not that helpful, these

35:31

sort of conventional wisdom of things, where

35:33

did they start? Because I never suggested

35:35

people practice in front of a mirror,

35:37

because to your point, what they end

35:40

up doing is hyper fixating on every

35:42

little gesture or even worse, like, God,

35:44

I hate my hair today or this

35:46

or that. It puts their focus exactly

35:48

on who it who it should not

35:51

be. So I really wonder where did

35:53

it come from in the first place?

35:55

I don't know. I think there's this

35:57

innate human desire to know how we

35:59

appear in front of others and you

36:01

know after going through a boot camp

36:04

with us our clients will and ask,

36:06

hey, can I get that footage from

36:08

class that you took of me? And

36:10

we deleted immediately, because the value is

36:12

not in watching the footage over and

36:15

over and over again and being hypercritical.

36:17

The value is in recognizing the things

36:19

that are happening internally that you think

36:21

are impacting your communication, most times are

36:23

not at all, and that the areas

36:25

where you can really improve are some

36:28

simple changes to your posture, your body

36:30

language. that allow you to unlock way

36:32

more benefit of the communication and improvement,

36:34

self-improvement in the communication than watching the

36:36

video over and over and over again.

36:39

For many of these small things that

36:41

your audience is never picking up on,

36:43

only you're picking up on them because

36:45

you care so much about the way

36:47

that you look. Yeah, I want to

36:49

add to that, of what a breakthrough,

36:52

that remark of, no, you're not getting

36:54

that footage, and here's why, is. Because

36:56

it's only showing that. Because you're going

36:58

to fix on this, you're going to

37:00

drive yourself nuts, and you're going to

37:03

make yourself worse. And they're like, oh,

37:05

so I can't get that. We've gotten

37:07

what we can gain from it, and

37:09

we're now progressing. So if that's the

37:11

case, and it was a natural thing

37:13

for me to ask for that footage,

37:16

how many other things have I overanalyzed

37:18

till I drove myself nuts? And when

37:20

we've taken out away, and we say,

37:22

no, you can't have that. We deleted

37:24

it and here's why. And all of

37:27

a sudden you can see that, oh

37:29

no, like they start to realize that

37:31

that's the problem, or at least one

37:33

of them, right? Yeah. You know it's

37:35

hilarious about that? I'll go in one

37:37

step further. Okay, so you're saving a

37:40

whole bunch of people who don't fall

37:42

into the hyper, you know, obsessing about

37:44

the same stuff over and over again.

37:46

You're saving them from it. But I

37:48

bet you there's not an insignificant... number

37:51

of people who would leave asked for

37:53

the footage and then never get around

37:55

to watching it because of or business

37:57

or whatever. And then they would yell

37:59

at themselves about, I've got to buckle

38:01

down and look at that footage. I

38:04

really, God, I gotta be better, I

38:06

gotta be better. So you're saving both

38:08

the people who would watch it and

38:10

also the people who would not buy

38:12

that simple thing. Another eye-opening piece for

38:15

a lot of our clients is we

38:17

instruct them to practice their stories. Because

38:19

in so many of these situations, and

38:21

you talk about this in the book,

38:23

presentation, it's great if I just put

38:25

charts and graphs and all the data

38:28

behind it. But in all the years

38:30

we've been doing this, and we run

38:32

into clients, we worked with 10 plus

38:34

years ago, what do they remember from

38:36

the course? They often remember a personal

38:39

anecdote Johnny and I shared that illuminated

38:41

a concept that now they use that

38:43

concept and it's just become a part

38:45

of their repertoire. But the reason they

38:47

grabbed onto it is because of the

38:50

personal story that Johnny and I shared

38:52

around, the impact that made in our

38:54

own lives. And it's been fascinating to

38:56

me. I didn't go in thinking, oh,

38:58

these stories would be so big of

39:00

a memory for our clients. We always

39:03

hope that the concepts and what we're

39:05

teaching and training on will be that.

39:07

But stories are just such an important

39:09

part of being memorable, of allowing the

39:11

audience to connect with you, and retain

39:14

the information. We find so often our

39:16

clients just want to come up with

39:18

stories on the spot and just throw

39:20

themselves to the wolves and hope that

39:22

they'll remember that one memory and then

39:24

put it together in a story arc

39:27

that actually gets the audience involved and

39:29

interested. And it's just such a terrible

39:31

strategy to think that you can free

39:33

flow stories in the moment if you

39:35

haven't really given yourself much of a

39:38

chance in the past to be a

39:40

storyteller. And as Johnny was illuminating earlier,

39:42

so many of our clients are in

39:44

very analytical jobs where storytelling isn't a

39:46

part of their day to day to

39:48

day. Part of their day to day

39:51

is like getting the spreadsheet completed and

39:53

getting the numbers over and analyzing this

39:55

and telling their superiors what exactly they

39:57

found in their analysis. So how do

39:59

you approach storytelling? I know it's a

40:02

big part of the content and the

40:04

delivery piece. And what can our audience

40:06

do to strengthen themselves as storytellers? Because

40:08

practicing and getting more adept at storytelling

40:10

really is the secret sauce. Yeah, I

40:12

would just reinforce a bunch of the

40:15

points you just made in the following

40:17

way. People do tell stories over and

40:19

over again. They just don't know it.

40:21

So I promise you've got whoever is

40:23

listening or everyone who is listening. Yeah,

40:26

100% of the people who are listening,

40:28

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healthcare just got less painful. found

1:00:01

out. So many of us, if

1:00:03

not all of us, had gotten duped.

1:00:06

So we're like, okay, so now it's

1:00:08

at our door, it's highly effective,

1:00:10

and we all fell for it.

1:00:12

So what does this mean for

1:00:15

our little group and for

1:00:17

this music that we love

1:00:19

so much that has now

1:00:22

been infiltrated by AI? Well,

1:00:24

the band that put this

1:00:26

together, they discussed They put out

1:00:28

a blog on sub stack of why

1:00:30

they did it, how they did it,

1:00:32

and what they attend to

1:00:34

do moving forward now that

1:00:36

the secret is out. And it

1:00:39

took them, he was saying that

1:00:41

just the songs themselves had

1:00:43

been through 50 iterations before

1:00:46

they got it to exactly

1:00:48

where they wanted it,

1:00:50

because of the fringiness of

1:00:53

it and getting it right.

1:00:55

So they put a lot of effort.

1:00:57

and in doing this. And of

1:00:59

course, when people found out

1:01:01

everyone was pissed off about

1:01:03

it, everyone was upset, how could

1:01:05

this happen, and they were mad

1:01:07

at the band. Why would you

1:01:09

guys do this? Now, for me, knowing

1:01:12

how this works, it was only

1:01:14

a matter of time before somebody

1:01:16

sat down to see if they

1:01:18

could infiltrate our world

1:01:20

with this music. So basically, that

1:01:22

was what he wanted to do.

1:01:24

Could I do it? Is it

1:01:26

possible? They generated the whole thing,

1:01:28

the band members stories, everything, and

1:01:30

the artwork, and it, and it, they

1:01:32

done an incredible job. But at the

1:01:34

end, when it talked about what they

1:01:37

were going to do moving forward, will

1:01:39

there be more records, how they going

1:01:41

to remedy this? Well, he said,

1:01:43

it got such great response, and it's

1:01:45

been gotten so much attention, so

1:01:47

now they were going to put an

1:01:49

actual band together. to go tour

1:01:52

and promote this record.

1:01:54

And I have to say I

1:01:57

would be buying a ticket to

1:01:59

go... see the show because I love

1:02:01

those songs so much and I was

1:02:03

duped. Can you pull and I was so

1:02:05

I would love to see this live. So now

1:02:08

we're discussing about writing and

1:02:10

performing as a band. It's

1:02:12

just a brand new brand new

1:02:14

way. Now I don't think I've completely

1:02:16

come to terms with the whole

1:02:18

thing yet, but I found it

1:02:20

utterly fascinating. It was

1:02:22

only a matter of time before

1:02:25

they infiltrated and now that they

1:02:27

have and and and they're gonna

1:02:29

Put a band together around this.

1:02:31

I'm excited about this project. So

1:02:33

to go on with when AJ was

1:02:36

talking about I See it as just

1:02:38

another way of getting things done

1:02:40

a different way of production But

1:02:42

at the end of the day the

1:02:44

human element is what people

1:02:46

are going to gravitate towards

1:02:49

Yeah, it's such a fascinating topic and

1:02:51

look I will I will say this

1:02:53

for sure I am an expert in

1:02:55

what I'm an expert in and I'm not

1:02:57

an expert in a bunch of stuff. And

1:02:59

how AI is going to shape the entire world

1:03:02

I am not an expert in. So this

1:03:04

is just one person's take on things. But

1:03:06

good lord is the symmetry of

1:03:08

what you just talked about

1:03:10

fascinating because technology got thrown

1:03:12

into music streaming and it broke

1:03:15

the revenue model for sure. No

1:03:17

one makes any money off records

1:03:19

anymore. Musicians only make money on

1:03:21

touring. So you could no longer sell

1:03:23

albums. So then you get AI, AI

1:03:26

makes an album, and now you're going

1:03:28

to tour the AI album for

1:03:30

the musicians to actually have

1:03:32

a livelihood, make money while

1:03:34

doing touring. It's a bizarre and

1:03:36

crazy sort of symmetry you're

1:03:39

talking about. The people that

1:03:41

I read about AI say something

1:03:43

similar to what you're saying, that

1:03:45

yes, there is very much

1:03:47

an existential threat of like

1:03:49

human annihilation. That's one on one

1:03:51

side. You know, those are the

1:03:54

doomers. life free and solve every

1:03:56

disease ever and then in between

1:03:58

is everybody else saying likely

1:04:00

it's going to be some version

1:04:02

of a productivity tool, but on

1:04:04

massive steroids. And so I think

1:04:06

you're right. I think the ways

1:04:08

in which people learn to surf

1:04:10

it and use it in certain

1:04:12

ways, it could be pretty fascinating.

1:04:14

I use it a lot right

1:04:16

now, not because it's that good

1:04:18

at writing. I don't actually think

1:04:20

it is that good at writing.

1:04:22

And I even told my publisher,

1:04:24

should we have a declaration in

1:04:26

the book that says not a

1:04:28

single word was written with AI.

1:04:30

And they said, oh, no, maybe

1:04:32

we should. I think we should

1:04:34

have maybe done that, but anyway,

1:04:36

whatever. I don't think it's that

1:04:38

useful at writing yet, but it

1:04:41

will be useful at some things,

1:04:43

and it's certainly useful at like

1:04:45

planning and a lot of productivity

1:04:47

tools. So that's a fascinating story

1:04:49

you share, Johnny. I don't know

1:04:51

where it all goes, but that's

1:04:53

a cool one. I'm actually curious

1:04:55

around role playing and creating scenarios

1:04:57

where you can free flow and

1:04:59

actually practice these concepts with AI.

1:05:01

without the downsides or the negative

1:05:03

consequences of doing it with a

1:05:05

live audience or another human. So

1:05:07

we've seen interestingly enough more interest

1:05:09

in the show and interest in

1:05:11

our coaching people finding us through

1:05:13

AI because they're actually more comfortable

1:05:15

sharing their deep down frustrations and

1:05:17

fears with AI where there's no

1:05:19

judgment associated with it and AI

1:05:21

can just spit back the answers

1:05:23

or the resources like check out

1:05:25

the art of charm or go

1:05:27

take a boot camp. So we've

1:05:29

been playing with... creating some role

1:05:31

play scenarios, so things that we

1:05:33

would do in class with other

1:05:35

students, but do it in a

1:05:37

way that they could access it

1:05:39

24-7, 365, so they can do

1:05:41

a little role play of the

1:05:43

job interview, they could do a

1:05:45

little role play of the first

1:05:47

date, again, to prepare and practice

1:05:49

some of those things that we

1:05:51

talked about, so that you have

1:05:53

the content piece handled, you can

1:05:55

really lean into the delivery piece,

1:05:58

and that delivery piece I think

1:06:00

is going to be in such

1:06:02

high demand. that you're going to

1:06:04

see people wanting to take more

1:06:06

in-person face-to-face meetings and speed up

1:06:08

sales processes like, hey can we

1:06:10

stop having a robots talk to

1:06:12

each other, let's just have this

1:06:14

dinner. Let's just meet in person

1:06:16

and hammer this out. That's how

1:06:18

I see it sort of the

1:06:20

trend line. And it's interesting because

1:06:22

people that I would say I

1:06:24

am not categorizing as technologically adept

1:06:26

are using AI and telling me

1:06:28

how I wrote that text message

1:06:30

with AI or I wrote that

1:06:32

email. So it's already infiltrated almost

1:06:34

all of our text communication. A

1:06:36

lot of people don't want to

1:06:38

share it openly that they're using

1:06:40

it. But they are, because as

1:06:42

you said, it's a productivity tool

1:06:44

to cycle through and speed up

1:06:46

a lot of these things that

1:06:48

slow us down productivity-wise. So I

1:06:50

implore, and obviously if you're listening

1:06:52

to show, you do value in-person

1:06:54

communication, but really implore, reading the

1:06:56

book, checking out your website, which

1:06:58

I would love for you to

1:07:00

share, and using these practice exercises

1:07:02

and strategies to become a masterful

1:07:04

communicator, because I think it is

1:07:06

going to be a very in-demand

1:07:08

skill as AI progresses. So where

1:07:10

could our audience find out more

1:07:13

about the work you do and

1:07:15

your website? Happy to, yeah. The

1:07:17

book's website is don't say um.com,

1:07:19

just like it sounds, don't say

1:07:21

um.com, and in fact we have,

1:07:23

and I'm going to keep it

1:07:25

this way, the chapter on navigating

1:07:27

nerves is totally free there so

1:07:29

you can download that one, reason

1:07:31

I want to keep that one

1:07:33

free, is because oftentimes that is

1:07:35

the single biggest challenge or pain

1:07:37

point that people have, and they

1:07:39

really sometimes or even in a

1:07:41

bit of a bit of agony

1:07:43

about that. So I want to

1:07:45

give that to the world, people

1:07:47

can access that any time. Don't

1:07:49

say um.com. You can find me

1:07:51

on LinkedIn, Michael Chad Heffner, H-O-E-P-P-P-N-E-R,

1:07:53

and then my company's name is

1:07:55

G-K-K-T-K-T-K-T-E-R, and then my company's name

1:07:57

is G-K-T-K-T-K-T-N-E-R, and then my company's

1:07:59

name is G-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of-of- Go check out

1:08:01

some AI stuff now, by the

1:08:03

way, and maybe even listen to

1:08:05

some music. Yeah, Johnny will send

1:08:07

it over to you. We'll see

1:08:09

if you can distinguish the AI

1:08:11

band from the... one. Totally, I

1:08:13

will. I'll send you back the

1:08:15

quiz results, okay? Let you know

1:08:17

why I got it right. Thank

1:08:19

you so much for joining us.

1:08:21

All right, thanks guys. See you.

1:08:23

Before the X Factor Accelerator, I

1:08:25

struggled with approaching new people as

1:08:27

well as procrastinating for fear of

1:08:30

saying the wrong thing. I joined

1:08:32

the X Factor Accelerator because I

1:08:34

felt like my technical skills were

1:08:36

recognized, but my ability to communicate

1:08:38

was limiting my career. I thought

1:08:40

if I could punch up my

1:08:42

communication skills, I'd be much more

1:08:44

likely to reach my potential. My

1:08:46

favorite thing about the X Factor

1:08:48

Accelerator is working directly with AJ

1:08:50

Johnny and Michael. While working with

1:08:52

them, I've had breakthroughs in my

1:08:54

marriage. while getting better at my

1:08:56

job and having more fun doing

1:08:58

it. If you're on the fence,

1:09:00

I would definitely encourage you to

1:09:02

book a call to explore working

1:09:04

with them. Thank you, Sheldon, and

1:09:06

it was a pleasure and an

1:09:08

honor working with you too and

1:09:10

good luck to you and all

1:09:12

of your future endeavors. If you've

1:09:14

gotten value out of this or

1:09:16

any of our podcasts, head on

1:09:18

over to your favorite podcast player

1:09:20

and rate and review the show.

1:09:22

It means the world to us

1:09:24

and it helps others find the

1:09:26

show. Find the show. All right,

1:09:28

before we head out, a huge

1:09:30

thank you to our producers, Michael

1:09:32

Harold and Eric Montgomery. Till next

1:09:34

week, go out there and make

1:09:36

it the most epic of weeks.

1:10:00

because you your taste on

1:10:02

black on the East

1:10:04

Bay Yeah,

1:10:06

I remember you,

1:10:08

oh yeah, I remember

1:10:10

you You

1:10:13

remember me, baby,

1:10:15

I remember you