0:00

You know Johnny, after all our years coaching,

0:02

there's one thing I've really learned about

0:04

transformation. That it starts from within? Actually,

0:06

I was going to say it starts

0:08

in the bedroom, but not in the

0:11

way you might think. I'm talking about

0:13

creating an oasis where you can truly

0:15

recharge. Ah, you're talking about Fuma. And

0:17

I gotta say, when it comes to

0:20

modern design, that actually makes a difference

0:22

in your life, they're in a league

0:24

of the realm. They've stripped away everything

0:26

but the essentials to create these elevated

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beds with premium materials and intentional

0:31

details. And speaking of details, over

0:33

17,000 five-star reviews don't lie. The

0:35

Thuma Bed Collection really proves that

0:38

simplicity is the truest form of

0:40

sophistication. Let me geek out for a

0:42

second about the craftsmanship. They use

0:44

this incredible Japanese joinery technique. Each

0:47

piece is precision cut from solid

0:49

wood to create this silent stable

0:51

foundation. It's honestly an art form.

0:53

The assembly takes just five-ish minutes,

0:55

with no tools required, just one

0:57

hand, tighten to screw, that's it.

1:00

Plus, it's built to last a

1:02

lifetime with a warranty to match, and

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it's green guard gold certified

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for cleaner indoor air, because

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we care about what we're

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bringing into our bedrooms. I

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love how they offer four

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design aesthetic. And if you

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want to customize it further,

1:21

you've got these amazing headboard

1:23

upgrades. Want to create your

1:25

own bedroom oasis? Here's the

1:27

exciting part. Our listeners can

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get $100 towards their first

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1:33

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1:35

to receive $100 off your

1:37

first bed purchase. Optimal

1:40

performance does not happen

1:42

at zero stress. I don't

1:44

want my surgeon to be

1:46

super chill and relax. about the

1:48

surgery they're about to perform. Their

1:51

optimal performance is going to happen

1:53

if they have some level of

1:55

activation before they pull out the

1:57

scalpel. All

2:07

right, let's kick off today's show.

2:09

Today we're talking with investment and

2:11

leadership expert Sebastian Page about how

2:13

sports psychology, self-awareness, and positive psychology

2:15

makes you a better leader. Sebastian

2:18

is a chief investment officer and

2:20

head of global multi-asset at T.

2:22

Rowe Price. His new book is

2:24

titled The Psychology of Leadership. Timeless

2:27

Principles to Perfect Your Leadership of

2:29

Individuals Teams and Yourself. And today

2:31

he shares how some stress actually

2:33

boost your performance. why ambitious goals

2:36

can cause dangerous goal-induced blindness and

2:38

see how your facial expressions impact

2:40

entire teams. Welcome to the show

2:43

Sebastian so great to have you.

2:45

Thank you. Johnny and I were

2:47

chatting a little bit before the

2:49

show about how the book combines

2:52

three of our favorite strains of

2:54

psychology, sports psychology, positive psychology, and

2:56

personality psychology. How did this project

2:58

come together for you? Well, AJ,

3:01

maybe I should ask you which

3:03

one of the three is your

3:05

favorite. Is it like picking a

3:07

favorite child? It is. We dabble

3:10

in all three and a lot

3:12

of our clients are familiar with

3:14

all of them as we talk

3:17

quite a bit about them inside

3:19

of our coaching programs. You know,

3:21

for me, I was actually struggling

3:23

at work when I started working

3:26

on this book and it started

3:28

with sports psychology. I went to

3:30

see a sports psychologist and he

3:32

happens to be a pro athlete.

3:35

He plays handball. You know, the

3:37

sport that looks like squash, but

3:39

you actually walk the ball with

3:41

your hands? Yeah. He has 40

3:44

national titles. His name is Dr.

3:46

Daniel Zimmer. So is a sports

3:48

psychologist and he's a pro athlete

3:51

who's clearly mastered the mental game.

3:53

So I sit down with him

3:55

and he starts telling me the

3:57

story of the best match he's

4:00

ever played at handball. And he

4:02

remembers everything. where the ball was.

4:04

at each point. And then there's

4:06

a moment where he's on his

4:09

knees, he's recounting this like it

4:11

was yesterday, even though it was

4:13

10 years ago. He's almost got

4:15

a tear in his eye. And

4:18

his point was he was playing

4:20

a much stronger player. And then

4:22

AJ John, the story is a

4:25

complete letdown because he goes, oh,

4:27

and then I lost the next

4:29

two points. He actually lost the

4:31

match. And that was the kernel

4:34

of how does someone... described their

4:36

best match ever as a match

4:38

they've lost. And for him it

4:40

was, now I know I'm a

4:43

strong player who can play a

4:45

much stronger opponent. This has been

4:47

a step change in my skills.

4:49

Sports psychology is fascinating because, you

4:52

know, it's not about winning at

4:54

all. It's all about losing and

4:56

what you learn from those losses.

4:59

So it's fascinating that way. And

5:01

it's also, you know, I'm in

5:03

the investment business. It's also about

5:05

resilience when you don't know what

5:08

the outcome is going to be.

5:10

And that touches investments, it touches

5:12

sports, it touches many areas in

5:14

life. So I started with sports

5:17

psychology, then I became completely passionate

5:19

and grossed into positive psychology, and

5:21

maybe if I had to pick

5:23

one in terms of how fun

5:26

it is to use. I might

5:28

actually pick personality psychology, this is

5:30

the third part of the book.

5:33

So I don't know, you decline

5:35

to pick one of the three?

5:37

Yeah, well it's funny as we

5:39

walk through the book because flow

5:42

is something that we talk about

5:44

with our clients in terms of

5:46

socializing and building relationships. And obviously

5:48

from the sports psychology background, like

5:51

flow is exactly what your mentor

5:53

was sharing. Being able to recall

5:55

every last detail fully immersed in

5:57

the moment. So much so, the

6:00

10 years later, he feels like

6:02

he's still there. That's what flow

6:04

is, and yet flow has such

6:07

an impact on our performance outside

6:09

of sports completely. in so many

6:11

areas and facets of our life.

6:13

And it's underestimated in business. Here

6:16

there's a crisis of employee engagement

6:18

in the business world. If you

6:20

look at the surveys, they're really

6:22

bad. Like if you go and

6:25

ask people, are you engaged in

6:27

your work? You'll get like 70%

6:29

feel disengaged from work. That's horrible.

6:31

And we don't talk about flow

6:34

a lot in business. But it's

6:36

super important. And you can generate

6:38

flow by giving more frequent feedback,

6:41

by gamifying parts of the work,

6:43

and here's what I talk about

6:45

in the book that is completely

6:47

underestimated. Flow is not just an

6:50

individual concept. You can get in

6:52

flow as a team. We're having

6:54

conversation right now, AJ. We're in

6:56

flow. I hope we're going to

6:59

continue to stay in flow, right?

7:01

Conversation, even if you go back

7:03

to the origins of the research.

7:05

Now I might challenge you to

7:08

pronounce the name of the founder,

7:10

the discoverer of the theory of

7:12

flow. I can't pronounce his name.

7:15

It's Mehaley, it's it sends me

7:17

Haley, something like that. I don't

7:19

know if you want to give

7:21

it a shot. But he was

7:24

talking about flow in conversation and

7:26

in teams. So in business, sometimes

7:28

I'm sitting there with my leadership

7:30

team. And we're debating ideas and

7:33

the ideas are flowing. We lose

7:35

track of time. Our intellect is

7:37

fully engaged. I look around the

7:39

room and go, oh, the team

7:42

isn't. I mean, think of an

7:44

orchestra or soccer team, for example.

7:46

So there's a lot to explore

7:49

with flow, not just in sports,

7:51

but in business as well. Another

7:53

key principle in the book around

7:55

sports psychology that I think a

7:58

lot of people don't recognize is

8:00

stress management. So when we think

8:02

about performance at a high level,

8:04

we think about these athletes feeling

8:07

no stress. When in actuality, there's

8:09

an optimal amount of stress for

8:11

peak performance. And when you understand

8:13

that, you can use stress to

8:16

your advantage. So let's unpack that

8:18

principle because that one really stood

8:20

out in part one of the

8:23

book. And I know for so

8:25

many in our audience, they're struggling

8:27

with stress, feeling disengaged at work

8:29

and feeling overwhelmed in so many

8:32

areas of their life, and yet

8:34

stress has such a negative connotation

8:36

to it. Okay, AJ, if I

8:38

had to say in this broad

8:41

exploration of sports psychology, of positive

8:43

psychology, of personality psychology. I know

8:45

I pick personality as the most

8:47

fun, but the number one finding

8:50

in my journey, and that's why

8:52

I spent a few chapters on

8:54

this in the book, is about

8:57

how we should handle stress. We

8:59

all think that stress is bad.

9:01

It'll kill you if you monitor

9:03

your cortisol levels, if you're completely

9:06

stressed over the top, you're going

9:08

to burn out. It's really bad.

9:10

But the idea. that we should

9:12

go through life at a zero

9:15

stress level is extremely misguided. And

9:17

athletes are the best example. The

9:19

sports psychologists I mentioned earlier, Daniel

9:22

Zimit, he said, athletes are incredibly,

9:24

incredibly stressed and neurotic. Now, sports

9:26

psychologists actually reframe it. They don't

9:28

like to talk about stress when

9:31

they talk about resilience. They like

9:33

to reframe it into activation, if

9:35

you can excitement, excitement. and so

9:37

on. But the idea is that

9:40

the optimal stress is not zero.

9:42

Your performance will peak at a

9:44

certain stress level and that is

9:46

not zero. And psychology has these

9:49

curves that you can illustrate even

9:51

as a thought experiment, right? H.A.

9:53

Like you might be improving your

9:56

performance as you get more anxious

9:58

about it because you prepare more,

10:00

you're more present, you have the

10:02

adrenaline to help you out, and

10:05

then at a certain point you

10:07

peak. and after that you choke

10:09

and you burn out and that's

10:11

the negative effect of stress. But

10:14

just... that realization, these are called

10:16

yerks, dots, and curves, just that

10:18

realization for me was a big,

10:20

big, big relief because I was

10:23

kind of beating myself up for

10:25

just, you know, it's a high

10:27

level, high pressure job for I

10:30

thought I'm not handling stress well

10:32

in it. And, you know, I

10:34

really love what Tim Ferris said.

10:36

He said embracing stress is a

10:39

superpower. I think there's a lot

10:41

of insight in there. And, you

10:43

know, we all want to be

10:45

like Neil Armstrong. You know, in

10:48

the book I talk about how

10:50

Neil Armstrong, when the 1969 first-man

10:52

moon landing mission went wrong, for

10:54

most of the mission, I mean,

10:57

the radio was out, the communication

10:59

was out, he had to take

11:01

manual control for most of the

11:04

mission, his heart rate was at

11:06

75. 75. And that's a resting

11:08

heart rate for a lot of

11:10

people. Now when it actually landed,

11:13

he peeked at 150. So we

11:15

don't want to be like that,

11:17

and we think leaders should be

11:19

like that. But that's kind of

11:22

misguided. You don't want to go

11:24

around in life beating yourself up

11:26

when you feel anxious, and the

11:28

realization that optimal performance happens at

11:31

a certain stress level or anxiety

11:33

level or activation level is really

11:35

liberating and helpful. I mentioned Neil

11:38

Armstrong because we all have different

11:40

stress curves. you might be very

11:42

resilient and you might actually peek

11:44

in performance at a high level

11:47

of stress. And some people really

11:49

have a hard time ending a

11:51

small amount of stress. So it's

11:53

person specific. The other thing that's

11:56

super interesting is it's also task

11:58

specific. optimal performance for archery occurs

12:00

at a lower stress level than

12:02

optimal performance for power lifting. Those

12:05

are two different activities. So if

12:07

you take that to leader if

12:09

you take that to leadership some

12:12

task like I'm not going to

12:14

go to my research and development

12:16

team and scream at them and

12:18

say, you gotta innovate right now

12:21

by tomorrow. You know, that doesn't

12:23

work. So it depends on the

12:25

task. There's a couple things that

12:27

we're missing there and it is

12:30

the stress level and how it

12:32

is framed at three different levels.

12:34

How it is framed at the

12:36

organizational level or the company level,

12:39

how it is framed in your

12:41

organizational level, so whatever department you're

12:43

and then to the individual. Just

12:46

like a sports team, it's going

12:48

to be at a team level

12:50

of the framing of what it

12:52

is to the department of where

12:55

you are, whether you're on defense,

12:57

offense, in the linebacker, core, whatever

12:59

that may be, and then down

13:01

to the individual to what it

13:04

needs to be framed for you

13:06

to be the most resilient and

13:08

responsive to that stress. And if

13:10

you can't vibe with what that

13:13

stress level is, in the organizational

13:15

organizational department, Well, it's going to

13:17

be very difficult for you to

13:20

vibe with the amount of stress

13:22

put on the individual level So

13:24

there's an alignment that goes along

13:26

with that That you have to

13:29

look out for if you remain

13:31

at an individual level You're going

13:33

to end up disassociating yourself from

13:35

your from the team all the

13:38

time all the time all the

13:40

time all the time all the

13:42

time who manages to figure out

13:44

his best response system in order

13:47

to fuel himself and to play

13:49

at his peak. And at that

13:51

point, he's now, there's the team,

13:54

and then there is him, right?

13:56

You could argue, like, if you

13:58

would talk about the, the New

14:00

England Patriots dynasty. Well, what do

14:03

you think of? You think of

14:05

Tom Brady. That is somebody who

14:07

managed to have all of those.

14:09

stress levels adopted down to his

14:12

own essence to perform at an

14:14

incredibly high level. But at any

14:16

point, if that goes out of

14:18

whack, then he is now not

14:21

a force within that unit and

14:23

in that organization, but the rogue

14:25

individual who now the team has

14:28

to make a decision. of are

14:30

we going to dictate our terms

14:32

or change our terms to fit

14:34

this individual and what he can

14:37

accomplish? Or is the team and

14:39

the organization more important than the

14:41

individual? So all of these things

14:43

need to be taken into context.

14:46

And John, you have two questions

14:48

to answer. First, understanding that not

14:50

every role, every task. You're

14:53

not going to reach optimal

14:55

performance for every role, every

14:57

task at the same stress

14:59

level. So it's task specific.

15:01

And second, I could not

15:04

agree more at what you're

15:06

saying, which is optimal performance

15:08

is different for different people.

15:10

Different people have different stress

15:12

tolerance. So if you're managing

15:15

a team, whether it's a

15:17

sports team or you're in

15:19

business, if you can understand

15:21

these two different things that

15:24

certain tasks require more pressure

15:26

to uncover optimal performance, and

15:28

that certain people perform better

15:30

on their pressure, and certain

15:32

people perform better on their

15:35

less pressure, then you can

15:37

run your team more effectively.

15:39

But to me, this idea

15:41

that we should all minimize

15:43

stress, that we shall go

15:46

all go through life at

15:48

zero stress level, is extremely

15:50

counterproductive. And in fact, you

15:52

know, it's going to add

15:54

to your stress if you

15:57

feel anxious. Just

20:17

go to shopify.com/charm

20:19

to start selling

20:21

with Shopify today.

20:23

shopify.com/charm. Make 2025

20:25

the year you finally

20:28

make it happen. optimal

20:30

performance. But

22:23

you always have to remember people

22:26

are looking at you and they

22:28

take their cues from you So

22:30

there's a level of self-awareness you

22:33

have to develop As you go

22:35

up the organization, but this idea

22:37

that the leader is unflappable You

22:40

know always home always cool under

22:42

pressure Again, that's not how the

22:44

world works as long as you're

22:47

self-aware That people are looking at

22:49

you and I'm basically repeating what

22:51

you just said AJ They're taking

22:54

their cue with how you're handling

22:56

your stress. It's not about not

22:58

having stress, it's about how you're

23:01

handling it. And, you know, being

23:03

vulnerable, saying, hey, team, this is

23:05

a tough moment. This is hard

23:08

for me. This is hard for

23:10

you. You have to be open

23:12

about your level of anxiety and

23:15

how you're managing it. And now

23:17

you're showing others how to do

23:19

it. So, you know, I love

23:22

that idea. People take their cues

23:24

from you. It's super important. We're

23:26

huge advocates of principle four in

23:29

the book and the impact of

23:31

relationships on success. And so much

23:33

of what we've talked about here

23:36

is that relationship with team members,

23:38

and you brought up a good

23:41

point of that self-awareness. Well, we

23:43

actually developed that self-awareness by having

23:45

great relationships, whether it's coaches, mentors,

23:48

or team members, who can lead

23:50

us back on track to give

23:52

us that feedback of, hey, maybe

23:55

you're not managing stress well. and

23:57

that furling of your brow in

23:59

the moment the team was chattering

24:02

about that after and lighting up

24:04

slack because now they're worried about

24:06

your management of stress. So as

24:09

a leader how do you approach

24:11

building those positive relationships that create

24:13

the... self-awareness and that self-fulfillment around

24:16

leadership advancement. You know it's okay

24:18

to be stressed and you have

24:20

to be prepared to be vulnerable.

24:23

You know don't lose your cool

24:25

but at the same time just

24:27

be aware that if you again

24:30

go through life trying to bring

24:32

your stress down to zero it's

24:34

not productive and it's not going

24:37

to work. Now relationships are key

24:39

and we're dipping a little bit

24:41

into positive psychology. But I'm sure

24:44

you all have heard or read

24:46

about the Harvard study on positive

24:48

psychology. They followed people through a

24:51

period of over 80 years. It's

24:53

one of the most famous studies

24:56

in positive psychology. It's fascinating. There's

24:58

no other study like this in

25:00

the world. They asked people how

25:03

they were doing their sent them

25:05

surveys. And they kept track of

25:07

measures of happiness. Literally asked people,

25:10

how do you feel? Are you

25:12

happy? And just detailed questions. It's

25:14

a real scientific study. And you

25:17

know, the punchline is well known,

25:19

but the people that climbed the

25:21

social ladder, that got job promotions,

25:24

that made more money, that were

25:26

healthy, compared to the people that

25:28

went down the social ladder, that

25:31

got sick, that went to prison,

25:33

that had to do with poverty.

25:35

It's kind of shocking, but there

25:38

was no real material difference in

25:40

their self-reported level of happiness. And

25:42

there's a very famous result in

25:45

positive psychology because it's kind of

25:47

counterintuitive. All these traditional measures of

25:49

success had very little, if any,

25:52

explanatory power. AJ, the only one

25:54

factor that correlated with people's self-reported

25:56

measure of happiness was the quality

25:59

of their relationships with the people

26:01

around the people around them. So

26:03

it's important in a lifelong, thriving,

26:06

positive psychology sense, but if you

26:08

bring it down to Earth, it's

26:11

super important in a team, it's

26:13

super important in business, and circling

26:15

back to what you just said

26:18

about self-awareness. Self-awareness is a really

26:20

good way to cultivate positive relationships.

26:22

So in the book I go

26:25

about feedback. You know, athletes need

26:27

to give themselves feedback. The coach

26:29

needs to give the athletes feedback,

26:32

but feedback is, hey, people hate

26:34

it. But you know what? If

26:36

you use it carefully and in

26:39

the right way and with trust

26:41

and mutual respect, it can be

26:43

a tool to maintain positive relationships

26:46

in the work environment or in

26:48

a sports team. I know so

26:50

many of our audience members are

26:53

goal oriented. So I would love

26:55

to hear how we could set

26:57

measurable goals for these positive relationships

27:00

in our life. You know, I

27:02

talk a lot about measurable goals.

27:04

They're super powerful, right? We all

27:07

know that's the basics. These are

27:09

the basics. You create goals that

27:11

are specific and measurable and that

27:14

have a time line to them.

27:16

But those also have tremendous downside.

27:18

I was speaking at a conference

27:21

yesterday and I had over a

27:23

thousand university students in my world

27:26

studying finance, wanting to be money

27:28

managers. And I asked the entire

27:30

room to talk about or to

27:33

vote on their long-term goals. And

27:35

I want to ask you guys

27:37

too. I just, it was a

27:40

really simple thing. I said, raise

27:42

your hand if your long-term goal

27:44

is either power, you know, gain

27:47

as much power as possible, wisdom,

27:49

fame, or wealth, or money. And

27:51

I ask people to be really

27:54

honest. Because I said, look, I

27:56

know the survey data, this is

27:58

mainly millennials, but AJ John, if

28:01

I ask you, like, which one

28:03

do you pick? What are you

28:05

after in your life? And of

28:08

course, it's a combination, there's a

28:10

lot in there. But what's your

28:12

gut reaction to this? Well, I

28:15

think any of our show listeners

28:17

who've been along for the almost

28:19

20-year ride with us know that

28:22

it's wisdom and the pursuit of

28:24

wisdom as it unlocks all of

28:26

those other things. I believe it

28:29

is one of the shortcuts to

28:31

all these other things, although I

28:33

care much, and I know Johnny

28:36

too, cares much less about fame

28:38

than any of those, but it's

28:40

definitely wisdom on our end. And

28:43

millennials, when you look at the

28:45

surveys, 80% of them want to

28:48

become famous. And going back to

28:50

positive psychology and how relationships are

28:52

important to your long-term ability to

28:55

thrive and be happy in your

28:57

life, those are goals that there's

28:59

nothing wrong with these goals, by

29:02

the way. It's perfectly okay in

29:04

my mind and motivating to pursue

29:06

traditional measures of success. But to

29:09

the wisdom part, there is definitely

29:11

more to it. I have in

29:13

the book a tongue and cheek

29:16

story where I talk about my

29:18

friend John who spent his life

29:20

working for charities, alleviating poverty, and

29:23

one morning he was eating his

29:25

cereal and an angel appeared to

29:27

him. This is obviously a made-up

29:30

story. And the angel said, which

29:32

one of those four do you

29:34

want? You know, well-famed power and

29:37

wisdom. And he chose wisdom. And

29:39

I explained in the book that

29:41

at that moment, this was the

29:44

first time in the history of...

29:46

humankind that someone had reached infinite

29:48

wisdom so everyone wanted to hear

29:51

what my friend John was going

29:53

to say media lights flashing cameras.

29:55

And I go, you know what

29:58

he said? And this is stung

30:00

in cheek with infinite wisdom. He

30:03

said, I should have taken the

30:05

money. So that is a way

30:07

for me to set the stage

30:10

on asking these deeper questions about

30:12

what you're really after in terms

30:14

of long-term. A lot of this

30:17

comes down to thinking longer term

30:19

than you typically do than we

30:21

typically do every day. And the

30:24

more you think, the longer you,

30:26

the longer you expand your horizon,

30:28

the more you go down to

30:31

those more fundamental goals. The issue

30:33

with the millennials, and well, it's

30:35

for a lot of generations now,

30:38

is that we have taken philosophy

30:40

out of our culture, we have

30:42

taken the desire to have an

30:45

understanding of philosophy from everybody. So

30:47

therefore the timeline in which we're

30:49

thinking on is our lifespan because

30:52

if you don't have a philosophical

30:54

understanding you cannot strive for things

30:56

that are greater than yourself. AJ

30:59

and I we have done a

31:01

lot of traveling thanks to this

31:03

company and one of the things

31:06

that you get to see in

31:08

Europe is some of the most

31:10

amazing beautiful architecture but you're also

31:13

seeing structures. that when the first

31:15

bricks were laid, those people knew

31:18

that they would never live to

31:20

see what they had handed and

31:22

creating. But the desire to be

31:25

a part of that was there,

31:27

because they weren't thinking about themselves

31:29

and under their life. They were

31:32

thinking about their community, the culture

31:34

that they were building, the enjoyment

31:36

and... and of many future generations

31:39

who are going to be able

31:41

to experience those things that they

31:43

had to handle it. So when

31:46

you ask a group of people

31:48

who don't have any fundamental understandings

31:50

and philosophy out of those four

31:53

questions, what do you want? Well,

31:55

of course they're gonna ask for

31:57

fame. Of course they're gonna ask

32:00

for power because that is there

32:02

in the moment where wisdom, as

32:04

you were mentioning, begins to stretch

32:07

the timeline of what becomes really

32:09

important to you as a human

32:11

being. and what you are going

32:14

to leave for generations to come.

32:16

Well, I know one of the

32:18

principles in your book is choosing

32:21

role models wisely. And part of

32:23

our pursuit of wisdom through the

32:25

show, and we felt fortunate in

32:28

a lot of ways to meet

32:30

some of those role models, is

32:33

the downside of fame and power

32:35

and wealth that is not quite

32:37

clear, especially to those in the

32:40

audience yesterday. Having not experienced what

32:42

those role models that they have,

32:44

choosing the wrong rules models, in

32:47

fact, have had on influencing what

32:49

their goals should be. And it's

32:51

always one of those catch-22s where

32:54

we have, you know, friends of

32:56

the show and clients ask us

32:58

like, oh, who's the most famous

33:01

person you matter? What do you

33:03

feel about having that one person

33:05

on your show? Or who'd you

33:08

look up to the most? And

33:10

especially being immersed in LA as

33:12

well, you know, haven't experienced yet.

33:15

Yet through wisdom, the pursuit of

33:17

wisdom, we've had this great opportunity

33:19

to have conversations with you and

33:22

other fantastic guests over the years

33:24

who've imparted on us, the truths

33:26

from their leadership roles, the truths

33:29

and the principles in their lives

33:31

that have helped guide them to

33:33

success. So what is it about,

33:36

I think, at a larger understanding

33:38

of leadership? that so much of

33:40

what we think that we know

33:43

about is just so flawed and

33:45

misguided and it's bumper sticker and

33:48

it's you know not based in

33:50

the philosophy that Johnny was talking

33:52

about and choosing the wrong role

33:55

models that lead us astray. lots

33:57

of counterintuitive conclusions in my book,

33:59

and you talk about role models,

34:02

have a bit of a fascination

34:04

with billionaires, and I explore billionaires,

34:06

what motivates them. I love what

34:09

Johnny said about philosophy, though, to

34:11

circle back for a second, forcing

34:13

you to think long term. That's

34:16

super important to me, and I

34:18

do touch a little bit on

34:20

stoicism in there. I actually have

34:23

this. ring on my finger that

34:25

looks like a neural ring, but

34:27

it's not. It's a momentumori ring,

34:30

which is basically remember one day

34:32

you're going to die. And that

34:34

sounds negative, but it's actually very

34:37

liberating and helps you think about

34:39

the meaning of what you do.

34:41

But you know, when you think

34:44

about meaning, I also like what

34:46

Johnny said about people building something

34:48

that would last for multiple generations.

34:51

and in Europe where they wouldn't

34:53

even see the final result, you

34:55

know, there's a bit of a

34:58

crisis of meaning too. This story

35:00

I use in the book is

35:03

the three brick layers. Are you

35:05

guys familiar with the three brick

35:07

layers? I see AJ's nodding, yes.

35:10

You know, this famous story about

35:12

an architect, it's probably made up

35:14

story, but it's about meaning. The

35:17

architect walks up to three brick

35:19

layers, and the first one looks

35:21

a bit depressed and tired. And

35:24

he asked the brick layer, what

35:26

are you doing? And the brick

35:28

layer goes, I'm laying bricks, and

35:31

I'm doing this to help feed

35:33

my family. Now he walks up

35:35

to the second brick layer, and

35:38

the second brick layer says, Well,

35:40

I'm building this wall here. And

35:42

what really switches the story is

35:45

when the architect walks up to

35:47

the third brick layer, who answers

35:49

the question, what are you doing

35:52

with, I'm super excited about. what

35:54

I'm doing and he's clearly energized,

35:56

he goes, I'm building this awesome

35:59

cathedral. And the story is important

36:01

because all three of them have

36:03

the same job. And in the

36:06

sort of world of money management,

36:08

for example, I could walk up

36:10

to an analyst working on a

36:13

spreadsheet and they might say, oh,

36:15

I'm debugging that spreadsheet. Now another

36:18

analyst might say, oh, I'm building

36:20

investment strategies to beat the market.

36:22

Now the third one with a

36:25

greater sense of meaning might say,

36:27

I'm looking for ways to beat

36:29

the market to make money for

36:32

my clients so they can have

36:34

a more comfortable retirement, right? Three

36:36

levels of meaning. And so that's

36:39

very powerful and it's also lacking.

36:41

We talked about how flow is

36:43

kind of lacking and not managed

36:46

well in business. I also think

36:48

that meaning, we talk a lot

36:50

about it. There's all popular business

36:53

books around it, but meaning is.

36:55

is also lacking in terms of

36:57

how you practically do this in

37:00

your business, how you encourage a

37:02

sense of meaning. For the students,

37:04

I won't go over it today,

37:07

but for the students in finance

37:09

yesterday, I just talked a lot

37:11

about the meaning of what we

37:14

do in money management, and I

37:16

think it was important for them

37:18

to hear it. But guys, I

37:21

want to pause here because we're

37:23

all saying the right things, right?

37:25

Wisdom, meaning. think long term, relationships

37:28

are important. At the same time,

37:30

I'm I'm conscious we might sound

37:32

as if we're saying pursuing money,

37:35

fame, power is really bad. It

37:37

is going to make you unhappy.

37:40

I don't think that's true either.

37:42

I think being ambitious and having

37:44

measurable goals around money or whatnot.

37:47

If you have balance in your

37:49

life and perspective, and to Johnny's

37:51

point, if you think philosophically about

37:54

things. You're just going to enjoy

37:56

the game much better. So it's

37:58

more like to use a statistic.

38:01

it's more like there's not as

38:03

much correlation, association between those

38:06

traditional goals and the more

38:08

meaningful goals and happiness, right?

38:10

So the traditional goals might

38:13

not be as strongly linked

38:15

to happiness, but they're not

38:17

linked to unhappiness generally

38:20

per se, they can be. So I just

38:22

want to add sort of that nuance

38:24

and caveat, because, you know, I

38:27

just, I think there's nuance in a lot

38:29

of these things in psychology. There's always

38:31

sort of a couple sides to it

38:33

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41:44

Do you? I was never really a runner.

41:47

The way I see running is

41:49

a gift, especially when you have

41:51

stage four cancer. I'm Anne. I'm

41:53

running the Boston Marathon presented by

41:55

Bank of America. I run

41:57

for Dana Barber Cancer. Four

46:01

of them have poison in them

46:03

and they're going to kill you.

46:05

And I ask you, what would

46:07

it take for you to take

46:09

one gummy bear and eat it?

46:12

So you have four out of

46:14

a hundred that are going to

46:16

kill you. So if I think

46:18

I know, I think I know

46:20

your answer. If I offer you

46:22

a million dollars, would you do

46:25

it? Just for the record, I'm

46:27

guessing it's no. No. A billion

46:29

dollars, I'm guessing it's no two,

46:31

because you clearly have this figured

46:33

out, right? But yesterday, in the

46:35

room, I asked people, be honest,

46:38

and I got a tremendous amount

46:40

of, like, I got, like, maybe

46:42

15% of the hands, just that

46:44

one million dollars. And so there's

46:46

a million dollar goal induced blindness

46:48

here, but the reason why I

46:50

use that example is if you

46:53

want to reach the summit of

46:55

Everest. You have 4% chance of

46:57

dying in the process. I don't

46:59

understand why people climb Everest. And

47:01

that is, to me, an illustration

47:03

of goal-induced blindness. A lot of

47:06

those deaths are not preventable, they're

47:08

kind of random. And it's morbid,

47:10

but if you want to reach

47:12

the summit, you basically walk over

47:14

dead bodies to get there. And

47:17

so goal and do is blindness

47:20

occurs like this where you just

47:22

look at something you want to

47:24

achieve it and you're going to

47:27

do everything on a sacrifice relationships.

47:29

You're going to sacrifice your health

47:31

early in my career. I was

47:34

not healthy because I was working

47:36

around the clock globally traveling and

47:38

your sense of ethics too. A

47:41

lot of companies have these goals

47:43

like Wells Fargo number of accounts

47:45

open and they started opening dummy

47:48

accounts. You know Volkswagen. emissions target

47:50

in the purity of the emissions.

47:53

They started fudging the emissions test.

47:55

Just go, yeah, stay a mile

47:57

away from the ethical gray zone

48:00

and realize that this go and

48:02

do. blindness really it occurs to

48:04

the best of us. I think

48:07

a challenge for many especially early

48:09

in their career when they're recognizing

48:11

okay you know fame or wealth

48:14

is tied in large part to

48:16

their success goals for themselves for

48:18

success struggle with this idea of

48:21

discovering their core values and when

48:23

we put a list of core

48:25

values in front of people they

48:28

often want all 30 of their

48:30

on the list to be their

48:33

core value. So talk a little

48:35

bit about yourself as a leader

48:37

and how you approached defining your

48:40

own core values, because I know

48:42

that's a challenge for so many

48:44

in our audience when we talk

48:47

about core values. You know, having

48:49

the ability to understand people and

48:51

work to help people in their

48:54

development is a huge part of

48:56

becoming a senior level leader. And

48:58

it's kind of the number one

49:01

core value for a leader is

49:03

developing others. And one which you

49:05

think about it is the real

49:08

powerful leaders are those that make

49:10

others around them more powerful. Now

49:13

almost all leaders in an organization,

49:15

they're going to go through this

49:17

process where they start off as

49:20

a really strong individual contributor. And

49:23

this happens in sports and money

49:25

management, for example. You're a high

49:27

producer. So you get promoted into

49:29

managing a team. And then you

49:31

might keep going up the ladder

49:33

in managing larger and larger organizations.

49:35

As you move into a leadership

49:38

role, and there's different kinds of

49:40

leadership. You don't have to manage

49:42

people. You're a leader in your

49:44

family, you're a leader in your

49:46

community, you're a leader in your

49:48

church. As you go up. Your

49:51

car value you have to realize

49:53

that your core one of your

49:55

core values if not the core

49:57

value is helping others develop helping

49:59

making other people's successful. And so

50:01

the most successful leaders almost have

50:04

to kind of make themselves replaceable

50:06

if they want to continue climbing

50:08

the ladder and be more effective

50:10

and increase their impact. That's a

50:12

big one in leadership that we

50:14

all go through and we have

50:16

to develop over time. It's not

50:19

about you. It's not about you.

50:21

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50:23

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50:25

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and other factors. Thank

1:10:54

you for listening to another episode of

1:10:57

the Art of Charm podcast. And now

1:10:59

I'd like to showcase one of our

1:11:01

X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away,

1:11:04

Mike. My name is Mike and I'm

1:11:06

a real estate developer in Los Angeles.

1:11:08

My experience with the Art of Charm

1:11:11

X Factor Accelerator program has been phenomenal.

1:11:13

And the most valuable lessons I've learned

1:11:15

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1:11:17

and identify emotional bits. Using these techniques

1:11:20

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1:11:22

situations than I was ever before. by

1:11:24

putting into practice everything I learned in

1:11:27

this program has helped me improve my

1:11:29

personal and professional relationships. I highly recommend

1:11:31

this program to anyone that is struggling

1:11:34

socially or in relationships in general because

1:11:36

I have greatly improved. Thank you Mike.

1:11:38

It was a pleasure and an honor

1:11:41

working with you too and good luck

1:11:43

to you and all of your future

1:11:45

endeavors. If you've gotten value out of

1:11:47

this or any of our podcasts, head

1:11:50

on over to your favorite podcast player

1:11:52

and rate and review this show. It

1:11:54

means the world to us and helps

1:11:57

others find the show. Before we head

1:11:59

out, a huge thank you to our...

1:12:01

producers Michael Montgomery until

1:12:04

next week go out

1:12:06

there and make Until

1:12:08

next week, go out there and make

1:12:10

it a bag. I'm

1:12:30

black on the east side