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end of the script. We

1:00

are the animal that's wired to internalize

1:02

the ways of the communities that nurture

1:04

us. We're sort of wired to learn

1:06

cultures to learn cultures and drop kid down in

1:09

a new culture and they will learn it

1:11

very quickly. But we are nurtured by

1:13

a lot of different communities as we

1:15

go through our life. It might be

1:17

the school that we're in then maybe

1:19

the religion that we're brought up in

1:22

and then up in. So go to a college,

1:24

we learn a profession, we join an

1:26

organization with a strong culture. We go

1:28

to these different communities and we internalize, but

1:30

internalized cultures, they can all drive

1:33

at once. Welcome

1:42

to the Art of Charm podcast, we break down

1:44

the science of powerful communication and

1:46

winning mindsets. you have the cheat code

1:48

to succeed with people. Every episode is

1:50

jam packed with actionable steps to

1:52

unlock the hidden superpowers inside of you.

1:54

Level up with us each week

1:56

by listening to interviews with the best

1:58

in business psychology, and the world. and relationships.

2:01

We distill thousands of hours of research

2:03

in the most effective tools and the

2:05

latest science so you can start

2:07

winning today. Let's face it, in order

2:09

to be seen and heard, your communication

2:12

needs to cut through the noise

2:14

and we're going to show you how.

2:16

I'm AJ, successfully recovered introvert, entrepreneur and

2:18

self -development junkie. And I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring

2:20

musician, promoter, rock and roller co -founder here

2:22

at the Articharm. And for the last

2:25

15 years, we've trained thousands of

2:27

top performers and teams from background. We We

2:29

have dedicated our lives to teaching

2:31

men and women all they need to

2:33

know about communication, networking and

2:35

relationships. You have to settle

2:37

for anything less than extraordinary. All

2:41

right, let's kick off today's

2:43

show. Today we're talking with the

2:45

cultural psychologist Michael Morris, discussing why

2:47

tribalism creates innovation and how to

2:49

harness it for your success. Professor

2:52

Morris works at Columbia University in

2:54

its graduate school of business and psychology

2:56

department. His new book is

2:58

titled Tribal, how the cultural instincts that

3:00

divide us can help bring us

3:02

together and it came out this

3:04

past October. Michael shares why tribalism

3:06

is rooted in solidarity, not hostility.

3:09

We discuss how our brains evolve

3:11

for social mastery, not physical survival,

3:13

and the reason conformity actually drives

3:15

innovation moving culture forward. It's a

3:17

thought -provoking discussion to help you

3:19

overcome the current climate of tribalism. Welcome

3:22

to show, Michael. great to have you. It's a

3:24

pleasure to be here. I I

3:26

know it seems today coming out of the

3:28

election and it feels like every four

3:30

years tribalism becomes a dirty word and

3:32

a lot of us look at it

3:34

in a very negative light. But what

3:37

I loved about the book is you

3:39

actually unpack the reasons behind it evolutionarily, why

3:41

it's important and how it's helped our

3:43

survival. So So why is it a

3:45

blessing as you write in the book? Well,

3:48

it got us out of the Stone you

3:50

know, as you're alluding to, know, tribal

3:53

psychology is the

3:55

set of capacities and

3:57

motivations we have that

3:59

enable us to form communities, you

4:01

know, to be part of

4:03

culture -sharing groups. And that's

4:05

really the killer of humanity. It's not

4:08

that our candle power is

4:10

that much higher than chimpanzees, but

4:12

we have this collective brain in

4:14

the form of, you know, the

4:16

legacies of shared knowledge. of know, 99

4:18

% of what I know or

4:21

what you know, we didn't figure

4:23

out for ourselves. You know, We

4:25

it from, you know, school or

4:27

just watching people around us. So,

4:29

So you know, we we live of

4:31

marinated in these cultures of groups,

4:33

and that's what makes us so

4:35

adept at everything. Now,

4:37

does it sometimes lead us to

4:39

be a little too focused

4:41

on our own group and dismissive

4:44

of other groups in a way

4:46

that's problematic? Yeah, sometimes. But

4:48

I think that the know,

4:50

the newspaper pundit class has

4:52

done us a bit of a

4:54

misservice the way that they've

4:56

seized on the idea of

4:58

tribalism and the way that

5:00

they usually write about it,

5:02

it, you know, making it

5:04

as dramatic as possible is to

5:06

to say that there's like innate

5:08

animosity for outsiders, you know,

5:10

a drive to hate, a

5:12

you know, fear and loathing that's

5:14

genetically, you know, we're predisposed

5:16

to. And, loathing you know, that's

5:18

not a picture of tribal

5:20

instincts that behavioral scientists evolutionary scientists

5:22

would recognize. Our tribal instincts

5:24

are 99 % about building

5:26

solidarity within a community. They're

5:29

not focused on outgroups. You

5:31

know, our evolutionary forebears didn't have

5:33

that much contact with out -groups.

5:36

There wasn't, you know, the population

5:38

density was very low. You know,

5:40

maybe once every 10 years they

5:42

would meet another tribe. But, you

5:44

know, they met each other every

5:46

day. And that's what was important

5:48

in evolution, to be good at

5:50

building trust and collaborating with with people

5:52

of your own group. And so

5:54

that's what we're wired for. And

5:56

it can go awry, especially

5:58

when you're in different conditions and you

6:00

know, you feedback loops and stuff,

6:03

but it's a, it's a a mistake

6:05

to think that you know our, our

6:07

conflicts and politics or other things.

6:11

that they start from hostility. you

6:13

know, they may end up involving

6:15

some hostility, but they don't start

6:17

from hostility. None of

6:19

our instincts are perfectly designed, know, like

6:21

wired to be attracted to sweet

6:23

things, you know, so that our

6:25

ancestors would get fruit

6:27

and get vitamins from it. Now, if

6:30

you live on a block with a

6:32

couple of donut shops, you're probably gonna

6:34

overeat because of that instinct, but that

6:36

doesn't mean that it's a gluttony instinct. you

6:38

know, a vitamin C instinct. It just

6:40

goes awry in this particular environment. And

6:42

I think likewise with, you know, like conflict between

6:44

the red and the blue parties, it's

6:47

not a reflection of

6:49

some innate to

6:52

hate. some outgroup. It comes

6:54

out of our solidarity instincts. And

6:56

the end result is that we

6:58

don't trust the other side and we, you know,

7:00

we've of really become polarized. but But

7:02

I think diagnosing it in terms of

7:05

you know what science can really tell

7:08

us about our tribal instincts are, you

7:10

know, the sort of the human specific

7:12

social instincts is helpful. Because if you don't,

7:14

if you don't diagnose something correctly, you're

7:16

not going to see ways to to, you

7:19

remediate it. You're not going see ways to

7:21

intervene. you You know, just like with any

7:23

any that a person might

7:25

have, you gotta understand the source of it

7:27

in order to help somebody out. And

7:30

it seems with that. Socialization

7:32

is a huge part of tribalism, whereas

7:34

what the media paints is obviously in -group,

7:36

out -group, and the negative side effects. but

7:38

a lot of what you about in

7:40

the book is our powerful ability to

7:43

socialize together, share that knowledge, and lead

7:45

to prosperity for the group that we're

7:47

in. Yeah. Yeah. mean, there's

7:49

a lot of efficiencies to

7:51

working collectively as a united

7:53

force, as opposed to each

7:55

person for themselves, know, whether

7:57

we're hunter gatherers, you know. hunting

8:00

you know, trying to gather stuff

8:02

or whether we're working in a

8:04

company today. You know, there are

8:06

some people who are really, really

8:08

good individual producers, but unless they

8:10

learn how to work well with

8:12

other people and find the synergies

8:14

with other people, their their

8:16

careers are usually pretty limited. And looking

8:18

through that lens, you talk about the

8:20

social brain hypothesis and how important it

8:22

is to be a social species. So

8:24

I know some members of our audience

8:26

might not be familiar with that. So is

8:29

the social brain hypothesis and and how does

8:31

it impact us tribally? So

8:33

this, this comes out of, you

8:35

know, the area of anthropology they kind of

8:37

asked themselves, you know, how did

8:39

we become this big brain species? You

8:41

know, like the other great apes

8:43

like chimpanzees are already brainiacs. They already

8:46

have, you know, a much higher ratio

8:48

of brain to body size than, you

8:50

know, most other mammals. The rank

8:52

ordering is kind of funny because it's

8:54

like humans, whales

8:56

dolphins and then

8:58

chimpanzees and then then dogs

9:00

not far behind Squirrels

9:03

are way up there. know,

9:05

they They have big heads relative their

9:07

body. Elephants, cats Cats are down the

9:09

list. know, So of

9:11

my friends have been upset to read

9:13

about that, that cats are not as,

9:15

not nearly as brainy as dogs or squirrels

9:18

or other things. But chimpanzees are already

9:20

really brainy, but then we have brains times

9:22

larger than them. And so so was kind

9:24

of a mystery of like, why

9:27

they evolve? know, because they have

9:29

a lot of evolutionary costs, something

9:31

like 20 % of our calories are

9:33

spent right up here. And so

9:35

so advantage did our brains give

9:38

us that justified the cost you know,

9:40

in evolution, because evolution is all

9:42

about cost benefit. And for

9:44

a long time, they just took

9:46

for granted that it must be

9:48

that bigger brains a creature more mastery

9:50

over the physical environment. And

9:52

so it was just assumed that, you know, first

9:54

chimpanzees and then humans, you know,

9:56

we dealt with these big brains because it

9:59

would help us like memorize the terrain

10:01

and help us get a a variety

10:03

of food sources and help us build

10:05

tools, etc. But then a couple

10:07

of interesting researchers who were both experts

10:09

on the brain and experts on

10:11

primates and monkeys, they did studies to

10:13

try to test that. And what

10:15

they found is that if you look

10:18

across all the primate species, the

10:20

bigger brain ones don't have

10:22

a a larger terrain, they don't

10:24

necessarily use tools more, they don't

10:26

have a greater variety of fruit

10:28

in their diet. But

10:30

they do differently

10:32

is that they live

10:35

in larger groups, they have more

10:37

complicated mating procedures, they

10:39

have more organized social lives and

10:41

more sort of synergy that

10:43

comes from an organized social group.

10:46

So the revelation was that

10:48

it was mastery over

10:50

the social environment, not mastery

10:52

over the physical environment

10:55

that our brains grew for. And

10:57

And then once once

10:59

started doing social neuroscience, these studies where

11:01

you hook people up to an fMRI machine

11:03

and you look at what part of

11:05

their brains light up, we

11:09

we that there's a whole system

11:11

for social cognition in the brain

11:13

that's different from the part of

11:15

the brain that's like doing math. And

11:18

that's in the forebrain and

11:20

that's a lot of what evolved

11:22

more recently when we look

11:24

at how human brains are different

11:26

from chimpanzees and how homo

11:29

sapien brains are different from

11:31

what we can infer from

11:33

skull shape about the brains of of

11:36

earliest archaic humans. So

11:39

really the social brain that expanded and

11:42

made us bigger brain and because the

11:44

real survival benefit was mastery over

11:46

the social environment. And then does that play

11:48

out today? Well, we all know about

11:50

emotional intelligence and social intelligence, but that area

11:52

tends to area tends to emphasize You

11:54

know getting along with people, but there's

11:56

also the game theory side of

11:58

social intelligence Which is if you know

12:00

can you outthink the other side?

12:02

And you know if they have a

12:04

bigger brain, then you have a

12:06

bigger brain and you need a bigger

12:08

brain So a lot of winning

12:11

in the world whether it's winning through

12:13

cooperation or winning through competition involves

12:15

Being able to think about other minds

12:17

and being able to strategize about

12:19

well How can I form a solid

12:21

coalition with this person and what's

12:23

going to be the weakness in this

12:25

person's strategy? You know, so mind

12:27

games, you know being able to get

12:29

your mind around other minds that's

12:31

super important for success and It's a

12:33

big part of the reason why

12:35

when we become antisocial it has such

12:37

an impact on our physical and

12:39

mental health So we're wired with this

12:42

big brain to socialize to not

12:44

only compete for resources But collaborate for

12:46

resources and share these traditions and

12:48

pass this information on and when we

12:50

wall ourselves off when we withdraw

12:52

When we actually face loneliness it has

12:54

serious impacts on our physical mental

12:56

health. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a

12:58

worry I think you know my

13:00

friend John Hyde has this book about

13:02

you know how kids using their

13:04

phones too much You know basically being

13:06

on screen all day instead of

13:08

rough housing in the woods and doing

13:11

that kind of stuff It kind

13:13

of makes them anxious and depressed It

13:15

used to be that happiness research

13:17

when psychologists first started getting like serious

13:19

about let's try to measure Who's

13:21

happy they were measuring? You know sort

13:23

of the amount of joy in

13:25

people's lives, you know, and they call

13:27

it, you know hedonistic happiness But

13:29

at a certain point they realized there's

13:31

something missing from that equation because

13:33

they would look at when you have

13:35

kids You know your happiness went

13:37

way down, you know, so why are

13:39

people having kids? You know and

13:42

they realized okay Well, there's this other

13:44

kind of happiness that corresponds more

13:46

to like fulfillment or a sense of

13:48

meaning in your life and They

13:50

call that one. It's a Greek word

13:52

you demonistic happiness You know hedonistic

13:54

versus you demonistic and I think they

13:56

should get a better word It's

14:00

not like these Greek words, you know,

14:02

are even poetic to the ear,

14:04

but that one goes up when you

14:06

have kids and you know And basically

14:08

it's high for people, you know picture

14:10

a person who's like keeping alive

14:12

their family business working 12 hours a

14:14

day with all this drudgery, right? Why do

14:16

they do it? You know, why don't they just

14:18

retire? Why don't they just sell it? well

14:20

because there's deep meaning that

14:22

comes from continuity and of preserving

14:24

the community and preserving the tradition

14:26

of your fathers and you know it

14:29

on to your children, right

14:31

so So drudgery, it's kind of

14:33

like meaningful drudgery and and it

14:35

gives people a sense of fulfillment you know,

14:37

you might be in the military and

14:39

you're you know, a hard slog You know logistics,

14:42

moving a lot of people, or it may

14:44

be that for me, it's like papers, know,

14:46

oh, why do I bother? Why Why bother?

14:48

don't I just retire and be an investor?

14:50

Well, you know, because I, I get

14:52

some fulfillment out of the idea of helping

14:54

the next generation, you you know, learn how

14:56

to think clearly. So I that

14:58

that's what I worry about, that

15:01

people who are not spending their time

15:03

figuring out other human beings and

15:05

working with other human beings that they're you know,

15:07

know, even if they're playing games and

15:09

feeling a little hedonistic happiness or you

15:11

you know. enjoying their pornography or

15:13

whatever else they do on their

15:15

computer, you know It's not not getting

15:17

that that elusive kind of happiness. and

15:20

in the book, you write that there are

15:22

three instincts, tribally we have hardwired in us.

15:24

And I think it'd be super helpful

15:26

to begin to unpack those and we can

15:28

talk about some examples for our listeners. so,

15:31

you know, I'm a I'm a researcher

15:33

at the University and when we write

15:35

academic papers, we're real hair splitters,

15:37

You know, so I probably divide it

15:40

into like 300 different things, you

15:42

know? But when I work with

15:44

business people or or other

15:46

people that I consult to, know you

15:48

know, I've kind of developed a playbook

15:50

for explaining things practical people and you

15:52

need to kind of only

15:54

have distinctions that really matter.

15:57

so I have of these three. ways of

16:00

the adaptations that

16:02

account for the human

16:04

-specific social It's the the

16:06

peer instinct, the

16:08

hero instinct, and the

16:11

ancestor instinct. And

16:13

the peer instinct, it started like than

16:15

a million years ago. And basically what

16:17

it is, is it's this

16:19

kind of intense curiosity about what

16:21

the other people around us are doing

16:24

and a sort of impulse to imitate them

16:27

and to want to with what they're

16:29

doing. So both some

16:31

capacities for learning, you you know,

16:33

learning from imitation and observation,

16:35

and also some motivations, like

16:37

conformity feels good, you know,

16:39

or agreeing with somebody feels

16:42

good. And a peer instinct,

16:44

we see that because we

16:46

we see signs from, you

16:48

you know, even like a million years ago, we

16:50

can tell from like footprints and that sort of thing that

16:53

started hunting

16:55

like hunting parties in a way

16:57

that involved more coordination, like more being

16:59

on the same page and having

17:01

a common goal than other primates.

17:03

Other primates, they hunt together, but

17:06

they hunt. It's more like parallel

17:08

play, You you know, where like you and

17:10

I are chimps and we're we're

17:12

going after lizards and I might

17:14

spook a lizard in your direction.

17:16

But I wasn't doing it for

17:18

that reason, you know, it just looks

17:20

like there's synergy and there is synergy,

17:22

but it's it's not, you you know,

17:25

when other animals collaborate, it's they call

17:27

it mutualism. there's benefit, but it's

17:29

not really we're working from the

17:31

same script, you know. And so the

17:34

instinct is very old and it

17:36

essentially corresponds to some of what

17:38

we call conformity. And of course,

17:40

we're all brought up to think

17:42

conformity is a a terrible thing. And

17:44

it does limit our independent thinking

17:46

as individuals but it enables

17:48

our collective thinking. and you

17:50

know, most of the really

17:52

impressive things that humans do

17:54

are involve, you know, thinking

17:56

with other people, building on the ideas

17:59

of other people. So So think we

18:01

should have a more -handed view

18:03

of conformity. It's what allows us

18:05

to mesh with other people, coordinate

18:07

with other people, be be

18:09

one mind or one

18:11

united force. And then

18:14

then about a half million years ago,

18:16

there were new things happening socially

18:18

where suddenly see an

18:20

individual making a sacrifice for

18:22

the group, like a valorous

18:24

hunter putting themselves

18:26

at risk so that the group

18:28

brings down a woolly mammoth.

18:30

And at the same time, you

18:32

start to see in the archaeological

18:34

record skeletons of people with

18:36

congenital deformities who to the

18:38

age of adulthood. And so that kind

18:41

of tells us, okay, someone was

18:43

taking care of a a person who

18:45

probably couldn't reciprocate, right? So So are

18:47

doing something because it's good for the

18:49

group, not because they're getting paid

18:51

back directly in some way. You

18:53

start to see way more sophisticated

18:55

tools that people had to to gratification

18:57

and kind of toil away to build

18:59

this tool. So So

19:01

of that is the start of

19:03

this kind of pro -social motivation, like

19:06

Like motivation, I to contribute to the

19:08

group and I want to enjoy

19:10

the esteem and the status that

19:12

comes with being a contributor and

19:14

the tribute. There are are and

19:16

resources that come to the contributors

19:18

in every human society. And so we

19:21

may, like with conformity, we may

19:23

think, oh, that's a silly aspect of

19:25

human nature, but it's really

19:27

not silly. It's a powerful advantage

19:29

that we have. Similarly, with our

19:31

status aspiration, we may think status

19:33

is superficial and silly, but it's

19:35

a mechanism that both serves individuals

19:38

and serves the group. Because Because individuals,

19:40

I have some ambition and some

19:42

energy. I'm going to try to

19:44

earn the esteem of the group

19:46

by building a better spear. Or

19:48

For today, it might be coming up

19:50

with a cure for COVID. And

19:52

the group benefits because there are individuals

19:54

trying to figure out what would

19:56

be valued by the group. And

19:59

we have... We have learning procedures that go

20:01

with it. and one of them is what

20:03

anthropologists call prestige learning that every

20:05

culture, you you know, people tend

20:07

to look at whoever has like success

20:10

and status, and then you kind

20:12

of infer, well, whatever they're

20:14

doing distinctively might be the reason

20:16

for their success. So I'm going to emulate it.

20:19

And, you know, we see that in the

20:21

business world, we see that in sports, you

20:24

know, so like when Steve Jobs

20:26

used to wear those black turtlenecks and have the

20:28

macrobiotic diet and meditate and And, You know,

20:30

I can't tell you how many tech

20:32

CEOs I've met who either wear

20:34

black turtlenecks or meditate have macrobiotic diets.

20:36

And as we saw in the case

20:39

of Elizabeth Holmes, you know, who imitated

20:41

several things about him, it

20:43

doesn't guarantee success, you know, because we're you

20:45

know, we don't know if what labra for

20:47

breakfast is why he's so good. But

20:49

we know that he eats something

20:51

unusual for breakfast. So inclined to

20:53

emulate that. And it's

20:55

not foolproof, You know, it'll lead

20:57

to superstitious learning. But it it

20:59

to lead to adaptive cultural evolution,

21:01

because if somebody does something

21:04

that is successful in the new

21:06

environment, you know, maybe the business

21:08

environment has changed, or maybe

21:10

there's global warming, and so something

21:12

has changed. And somebody's doing

21:14

something, you know, planting a different

21:16

crop and it's succeeding Other people

21:19

will emulate that. and

21:21

then what happens is the group

21:23

shifts in that direction, the culture

21:25

of the group shifts towards what's

21:27

working now. So it's kind of a

21:29

progressive force, you know,

21:31

this status aspiration hero

21:34

instinct aspect our psychology.

21:36

And then the final part, which came

21:38

in the last 100 ,000 years, and

21:40

to a lot of people, it

21:42

sounds like the most primitive of all

21:44

of these ways that were wired.

21:46

It's the ancestor instinct and it corresponds to the,

21:49

you know know, the kind of deep

21:51

curiosity we have about what the past

21:53

generation was doing, you know, why

21:55

we listen to the stories of elders

21:57

why we sort of commit myths to

21:59

memory, while why was why we watch

22:01

rituals and then we want to replicate

22:04

the ritual and it's a capacity for

22:07

sort of carrying the wisdom of the past into

22:09

the new generation and then passing

22:11

it on to the next generation.

22:13

And it can lead to a

22:16

lot of sentimentality and nostalgia and

22:18

hanging on to things

22:20

that don't work. work, but it

22:22

was really valuable to

22:24

have evolved in humans because

22:26

it created tribal memory. Before

22:29

that, even though

22:31

people had the hero instinct and they

22:33

were trying to contribute things, but had

22:35

to reinvent the wheel. almost every

22:37

generation, because people weren't

22:39

hanging on to the distinctive

22:41

innovations of the previous

22:43

generation. once you had people

22:46

wired with this kind of

22:48

compulsive interest in maintaining traditions,

22:50

that kind of created group

22:52

memory. so so an

22:55

aspect of our psychology that can seem times,

22:57

but it was an important piece of the

22:59

puzzle. And then once then once you all three of

23:01

those tribal instincts together, the

23:03

sort of conformist instinct, the

23:05

status aspiration instinct, and

23:08

the remember what grandfather used

23:10

to do do instinct, then you

23:12

started to have what's

23:15

called cumulative cultural evolution,

23:17

which is that the culture

23:19

groups started to grow richer.

23:22

and more tuned to the local ecology

23:24

with each generation because you had all

23:26

three of these things going on. And

23:28

once was like a Rubicon

23:30

our species got cumulative evolution

23:32

because we just left, we

23:34

left all the other species

23:36

behind because were individuals getting getting

23:39

any more brainy, they became more

23:41

capable, you know, every generation

23:43

the stock of cultural knowledge

23:45

that they could draw upon

23:48

was getting richer and richer

23:50

and richer. And And so That's

23:52

what really makes us human, this this

23:54

of capacity to live in groups

23:56

that share rich legacies of culture.

24:00

That's tribal psychology. now. does it sometimes

24:02

lead us to get angry at other

24:04

groups? Yeah, it does. But it's

24:06

originating out of these three instincts. And

24:08

if we want to solve These

24:10

snags that we get into, it's helpful

24:12

to remember these three instincts and to

24:15

try to trace how they're contributing to

24:17

the problems. It seems to

24:19

me that each one of these

24:21

add -ons to the tribe did so

24:23

in order to protect the tribe.

24:26

So first one conformist. Yes I

24:28

want to know where I

24:30

am if I get in this

24:32

collective that I am from

24:34

other outside forces. Now that

24:36

I'm in the tribe in

24:39

order for there to be

24:41

any order, I must understand where

24:43

I am in the tribe.

24:45

So that's the community status situation.

24:47

And I want to work

24:49

in order to move up the

24:52

chain towards the top of

24:54

that community where I'll be revered.

24:56

And then lastly with the

24:59

traditions and we've been through, having

25:01

that origin story allows for

25:03

us to protect ourselves so

25:05

we're not subverted from outside

25:07

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at .com. It

26:21

strikes me that mimicry is a key

26:23

part of all three instincts. Yeah,

26:25

they're all like from social

26:27

information, you know. And it's

26:29

funny, you know, we we say monkey

26:31

see, do, but there's all

26:34

these studies that show that

26:36

we are far more imitative than

26:38

other monkeys or even chimpanzees.

26:40

You know, like when you

26:42

set up like a puzzle

26:44

with chimpanzees and they they how

26:46

to solve a a puzzle

26:48

one way and then you

26:50

show them some other chimpanzees solving the

26:52

same puzzle in a different way. They're

26:54

like, I'll stick with what works for

26:56

me. But with humans, if they

26:58

they other children solving the puzzle in

27:00

a different way, they switch. You

27:03

know, they They switch to the way of

27:05

the majority. So a lot

27:07

more copycats than other monkeys.

27:09

so we shouldn't ridicule them.

27:11

And looking at things historically, you

27:13

know, most of the tribalism, we

27:16

had only experienced one tribe in our

27:18

lifetime. But now we're in a

27:20

situation where we're in such close quarters

27:22

and we're constantly influenced and seeing

27:24

and interacting with multiple cultures and

27:26

multiple tribes through our lifetime. Yeah,

27:29

I think that, you know, this

27:31

is a big one. I think nowadays,

27:34

way to summarize some of

27:36

this tribal stuff is that we

27:38

are the animal that's wired

27:40

to internalize the ways of

27:42

the communities that nurture us.

27:44

right? We're sort of wired

27:46

to learn cultures and drop

27:49

kid down in a new culture and they will

27:51

learn it very quickly. But we

27:53

are nurtured by a lot of different

27:55

communities as we go through our life.

27:57

know, it might be the school that

27:59

we're in and then maybe the religion that

28:01

we're brought up in. and and then soccer team

28:04

that we get on. on and then, you

28:06

know, we go to a college, we

28:08

learn a profession, we join an organization

28:10

with a strong culture, we the military, we

28:12

join an ashram, you know, we go to

28:14

these different communities and we internalize things,

28:16

but these internalized cultures, they can all

28:18

drive at once because there's, they contradict each

28:21

other. Walt Whitman, you know, the poet, you

28:23

know, he said, if I contradict myself, then

28:25

contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes.

28:27

And I think that's a great description

28:29

of of life, right? We

28:31

all contain multitudes, different groups

28:33

within us and we have

28:35

to one set of one set

28:37

of cultural scripts in one situation

28:39

and another set of scripts in

28:42

another situation. Sometimes we get

28:44

creative and we, like fusion cuisine, know, we

28:46

put things together that been together

28:48

before. but But haven't the most part,

28:50

we do what's called code switching, right? Where you get

28:52

in front of a group of

28:54

people that are from your hometown you

28:56

start talking like people in your hometown and

28:58

then you get in front of a group

29:00

of people from your profession and you're talking

29:03

jargon, you you know, and and don't even have

29:05

to try to do that, it just just out.

29:07

Yeah, and I think, Instinctually,

29:09

we think of the cross-cultural as like

29:11

in the middle. and like homogenizing,

29:13

but in actuality that code switching

29:16

doesn't actually mean you meet in the

29:18

middle you're doing both half time. You end

29:20

up defaulting to whatever the predominant

29:22

culture is that you're immersed in. in. Yeah,

29:24

it can be a a both and

29:26

than a blend and think that's

29:29

an important insight that you know

29:31

generally have have come to I

29:33

think when I was growing

29:35

up there was this sense of

29:37

like people who were by

29:39

cultural like were immigrants or or

29:41

even people who were like. multi-ethnic,

29:43

right? they they somehow stuck

29:45

in between these groups. And

29:48

I think there's a more of a

29:50

realization now that a lot of people are

29:52

this and 100% that, you know, and this and 100 %

29:54

that, and perfectly comfortable going back and forth.

29:56

Yeah, I I mean, I think a lot a lot

29:58

of people, their first. encounter of

30:00

code switching is from

30:03

a narcissist where have

30:05

been duped, they've been drawn in

30:07

in they related this person and

30:09

then they see that person six

30:11

months later in a completely different

30:14

setting and they've code switched now

30:16

they're using different signals. And

30:18

so if that's the case, they've

30:20

been burned and that burn has been crystallized

30:22

in their mind. That is now

30:24

going to be a red flag that

30:26

they're going to be looking out

30:28

for. So it certainly have that

30:30

opposite effect as we've been

30:32

talking about. Yeah, I think that

30:34

in the U S we have

30:36

this very strong individualistic culture, right?

30:38

And there was a book written

30:40

by a Columbia professor called sincerity

30:42

authenticity. And it was about sort

30:44

of the the of the American

30:47

ethos. And I think that

30:49

there are many places in the

30:51

world like, say, Japan or

30:53

China, whatever, where of

30:55

those things, sincerity or authenticity is

30:58

as as emphasized, right? Because there's much

31:00

more of a sense that the virtue

31:02

is to be situation appropriate. You know, so I'm

31:04

in a business situation, I should

31:06

act like a businessman. And if I'm

31:09

in a family situation, I should act

31:11

like a husband or whatever. And

31:13

I think that you know, like Canada,

31:15

you know, Trudeau, he's a native

31:17

French speaker and a native English

31:19

speaker. and nobody bats an eye when

31:21

he switches to French halfway

31:23

through a sentence because he realizes that

31:26

he's speaking with Quebec, quad audience

31:28

than a Toronto audience. But

31:30

I think in the U we

31:32

do have this strong sense that

31:34

you shouldn't be two faced, you know,

31:36

You audience. you shouldn't be you

31:38

should be the same person through

31:40

every interaction that you have

31:42

that does create more suspicion.

31:44

think when people are

31:46

changing this, the

31:48

subcultural that they

31:50

follow. And there's also something

31:53

very endearing of seeing somebody step into

31:55

a world into a world that

31:57

they're not familiar with and fumble

31:59

around. but their best to understand

32:01

and respect it. And with that,

32:03

it's like, well, it's perfectly

32:05

normal that you wouldn't be comfortable

32:07

with this. But considering that you're

32:10

given your best and

32:12

you're able to laugh at yourself in

32:14

this uncomfortable situation, well, I have

32:16

respect for that because you don't belong

32:18

here, but you're trying. Yeah, I

32:20

think we trust people when they

32:22

make themselves vulnerable to us, right? So

32:24

when somebody's willing to go into a

32:26

situation and and their lack

32:29

of perfect competence, but try, I I

32:31

think that's, it's part of the joy of

32:33

traveling abroad, right? Where you're kind of reduced

32:35

to a childlike state, you know, and

32:37

people have to take sympathy on you

32:39

because you can't really figure out where

32:41

you're going. Well,

32:43

it's also one of those moments where you

32:45

start to recognize the impact that culture has

32:47

on you. So oftentimes when you're immersed in a

32:49

culture, you don't actually understand its real impact.

32:51

And for some of us, it's going off

32:53

to college. For some of us, it's traveling

32:55

internationally. Where actually see the cultural

32:57

differences. And you have a great example in the

33:00

book of a photo of fish.

33:02

And there's one fish it looks

33:04

like to an American set of eyes

33:06

leading the pack of fish behind

33:08

it. But in Eastern culture, looking at it

33:10

completely differently from a collectivist mindset, it

33:12

looks like that one fish may

33:15

have pissed off the group and they're

33:17

chasing him out of the group. It's

33:19

the same picture, but culturally speaking,

33:21

we're viewing it through a completely different

33:23

lens. I think you

33:25

captured that better than I ever have.

33:27

that was my dissertation. It was

33:29

like we were trying to develop like

33:31

a Rorschach test to test whether there were

33:33

like cultural differences in the interpretations

33:36

people make, the social judgments that people

33:38

make. And we went through lots

33:40

of different animals and lots of different

33:42

stick figures. And then we landed on

33:44

fish and it turned out to

33:46

be a good way to to

33:49

out this this difference in people's assumptions

33:51

about what's cause what's effect. Is

33:53

it the individual leading the group

33:55

or the group chasing the

33:57

individual? Yeah, and then then we've found,

34:00

know, In generations of research, you

34:02

know, we we look at bi -cultural

34:04

people like Asian American kids, you know,

34:06

in New York or California or

34:08

kids in Hong Kong, you know, who

34:10

are growing up with both cultures.

34:12

And what we find is that if

34:14

we if we run the study in, in say,

34:16

Kong, if we run the in Cantonese and

34:18

we show them the pictures of the

34:20

fish. They have the bias

34:22

of seeing the group influencing

34:24

the individual. And if we

34:26

run the study in English, they have the bias

34:29

of thinking the individuals the group.

34:31

So they have both sort

34:33

of sets of cultural scripts

34:35

within them and which ones

34:37

come top of mind affected

34:39

by little aspects of the

34:41

situation that are like cues

34:43

tell us, okay, you're in a Western

34:45

situation or you're in a Chinese situation.

34:48

Yeah, I think what's interesting about that is you know,

34:50

coming out of the election, I I think a

34:53

lot of us have been algorithmically

34:55

and culturally steeped in views of of

34:57

we anticipated the results to be,

34:59

and now we're all sort of coming

35:01

out of it and recognizing that

35:03

even in a country like the U.S., we

35:06

think of one large culture, there's vast

35:08

cultural differences in perspective of what

35:10

happened in an event we all lived

35:12

through. Yeah, you know, it's

35:14

just striking how those of us who

35:16

try to be aware of what's going

35:18

on and what the country is thinking, but

35:21

we're so much in our bubbles that,

35:23

you know, and we're selective about what

35:26

media we look at at, there's a

35:28

lot of confirmation bias that goes

35:30

on. And so we have these election night

35:32

surprises. And these days it happens almost

35:34

every election, you know, four

35:36

years ago. it It was

35:38

the Republicans genuinely thought they were

35:40

going to win and were shocked.

35:43

And then immediately you go to

35:45

the inference foul play, you know,

35:47

did something. And four years before

35:49

that, you know, Democrats were shocked.

35:52

and now it's Democrats again

35:54

who are shocked. And I

35:56

think a big part of you know, comes out

35:58

of these events is this. desire then

36:00

start a grassroots movement. And oftentimes

36:03

it's labeled in a political way, but in large

36:05

part what we're doing is we're trying to

36:07

harness those three instincts to create

36:09

the culture and the tribe that

36:11

will affect the change that we're

36:14

looking for. Yeah, and I think that

36:16

in my field, like I work

36:18

in a business school, there's a

36:20

lot of people who are experts

36:22

on organizational change, cultural change, and

36:24

every class on that will start

36:26

with 75 % of change initiatives in

36:28

corporations fail. And

36:31

why do they fail? Well,

36:33

because there's active resistance. Like

36:35

in the CEO suite wants to change

36:37

the strategy or change the structure, but

36:39

you've got all these middle managers who

36:41

are kind of invested in the status

36:43

quo, and and it's what got them

36:45

to where they are, and they're going

36:47

to dig in their heels and try to

36:49

it out and not change. And

36:52

I think that a grassroots movement

36:54

is one of the ways that

36:56

you can get successful change about

36:58

a really deep cultural pattern. And

37:00

it's called grassroots it starts from

37:02

the bottom and it works its

37:04

way up. And so the the thing

37:07

about a grassroots movement, we could

37:09

point to like Gandhi India or

37:11

Mothers Drunk Driving or the migrant

37:13

migrant farm workers in California, it it

37:15

starts with the people

37:18

at the bottom making

37:20

a change in their

37:22

everyday life. and then

37:24

it seeps upward to

37:26

the the discourse. So started

37:29

to get involved in

37:31

the striking of the great

37:33

pickers or got involved

37:35

with Mothers Against Drunk Driving

37:37

some politicians. And

37:39

so people who are influential and

37:42

who control the shared values get

37:44

involved. And then eventually

37:46

they really succeed in making change,

37:48

it's because they've started to

37:51

change the traditions and

37:53

the policies. It's often legal

37:55

change that in these groups, you can tell a

37:57

similar history of struggle struggle for same -sex

37:59

marriage. you You know, a a lot of people

38:01

say, oh, it was these was these

38:03

-thinking lawyers and Court judges. No,

38:05

it was a process, -year process, you

38:07

know, starting in the nineties 90s with

38:09

LGBT groups, you know, the Come Out

38:11

of the Closet movement, you know, make

38:13

yourself more visible. And then it

38:16

started trickling up into Hollywood, and

38:18

you had shows like Will Grace that

38:20

were showing that, you know, the

38:22

same -sex relationships were the ones that

38:24

everyone admired, you know, which wasn't

38:26

the case in the prior generation

38:28

of sitcoms. And then you had

38:30

lots of states passing -sex marriage, and you

38:32

had lots of churches recognizing it,

38:34

lots of corporations recognizing it in terms

38:36

of benefits. So you lots of

38:39

policies and traditions changing before the Supreme

38:41

Court changed, so it's kind of bottom -up,

38:43

it works its way up like

38:45

that. You know, one way

38:47

to think about it is

38:49

that you're kind of changing

38:51

the peer codes, the peer-instinct norms, and

38:53

then you're starting to change the

38:55

hero instinct norms, like who's role model

38:57

and who are we aspiring to

38:59

be like? And then finally, it's

39:01

changing the ancestor instinct, you know, changing like, okay,

39:04

well, lots of states have been doing

39:06

this and it seems to be a good

39:08

thing. And, you know, when the Supreme

39:10

Court justifies it, they justify it by like the

39:13

14th Amendment that, you know, everyone has to

39:15

get equal protection under law. and that was,

39:17

you know, that was years ago, years ago.

39:19

And it's time to to

39:21

that to this domain. So

39:23

I think that these tribal

39:25

instincts correspond to different stages

39:27

of a grassroots movement. and

39:30

a grassroots approach is a great way

39:32

to make change, but it takes time. and

39:34

that's the only disadvantage. It proceeds

39:36

on the order of years and

39:38

decades rather than months. AJ,

39:41

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41:28

Oh. Hear that? Okay,

41:31

thank you. Etsy knows these

41:33

aren't the sounds of holiday gifting. Well,

41:35

not the ones you're hoping for. You

41:38

want squeals of delight. Eee!

41:41

Happy tears. How did

41:43

you? And spontaneously written songs

41:45

of joy. I am

41:47

so happy. Oh yeah, oh yeah,

41:49

oh yeah. Um, okay,

41:51

the song needs a bit of

41:54

work, but anyway. For

42:13

original gifts that say, I

42:15

you, Etsy it. but

42:17

the benefit is know,

42:19

a tiny minority. can

42:22

impact a large majority in the

42:24

change that follows. They can, it can

42:26

be like a snowball that gains, you

42:28

know, yeah, I mean, Mothers Against

42:30

Against Drunk Driving, it started with like one

42:33

who had no political experience, but her

42:35

daughter got killed in an accident. And then

42:37

she saw that the guy who

42:39

was the driver had been in other

42:41

accidents and was getting a slap on

42:43

the wrist. And so it can start

42:45

with just a few people who are

42:47

compelling and then others join and then

42:49

it spreads laterally and then it starts

42:51

to move its way upwards. You

42:54

know, they they it astroturfing,

42:56

right? When you you find

42:58

that like, okay, these anti-climate change citizens really

43:01

just paid by the oil companies.

43:03

Okay, they call that astroturfing because it's like

43:05

real grassroots movement. But that's more

43:07

common than you would think. you know? So

43:09

like the Party movement, that was the Koch

43:11

brothers. The Koch brothers, they trained

43:13

a bunch of people to

43:15

go back to their communities

43:17

and start these anti-Obama, anti -tax things.

43:20

And, you lot of the people they

43:22

succeeded. but then lots of of

43:25

chapters sprouted up in neighboring communities that

43:27

they hadn't trained, you know? So it's not not

43:29

like astroturfing, it becomes real grass. And I

43:31

think Trump's movement was like that too. He

43:33

He obviously put, you know, some of

43:35

his own money into it, but in

43:37

the end, he spent a lot less, you

43:40

know, in this this election, he

43:42

spent a tenth of what a

43:44

Kamala spent. you have a lot

43:46

of really passionate people who

43:48

really felt like he was

43:50

protecting the American dream

43:53

or something. And what I is important to point

43:55

out is you can't skip the peer

43:57

instinct. So there is this this

43:59

desire. here to be the hero,

44:01

to to step in and influence,

44:03

but in actuality, we have

44:05

to start a level below at

44:07

the peer get a small group

44:10

of individuals together before

44:12

just jump in and say, I'm the

44:14

hero. I'm going to save things. I'm going

44:16

to change things X, Y, Y, and Z,

44:18

and in a lot of those movements that

44:20

get labeled disaster turf, they're not actually peers. They

44:22

haven't done anything peer related at all. They

44:24

to skip the step with money and

44:26

influence and amplification to buy past

44:28

peer movements and pay

44:30

their way to the hero step.

44:33

Yeah, I mean, I agree with that

44:35

know, I agree with that analysis

44:37

of, you know, the the national political

44:39

situation, that it's it's about in

44:42

these information processing bubbles, you know,

44:44

where you're getting a lot of

44:46

validation for what you already think.

44:48

But I think that, you know,

44:50

I think that successful political campaigns,

44:53

even at the national level, sometimes

44:55

they tap into something that already

44:57

exists and sometimes they can kind

44:59

of ferment something, you

45:01

know, but there have to be

45:03

some shared beliefs among the

45:05

rank and file, the ordinary people

45:07

in order to get passion, know,

45:10

in order to get people mobilizing

45:12

their neighbors to go vote. Right,

45:14

that's what I'm getting at with

45:16

the instinct, where if you bypass

45:18

that by lumping people together

45:20

and saying, oh, at with no actual

45:22

real solidarity behind you're missing the

45:24

point of what a grassroots movement is,

45:26

where it's a recognition that we're

45:28

bringing the mother impacted by drunk driving

45:31

to the forefront of the movement,

45:33

not paying her behind scenes and

45:35

hoping that we can bypass by

45:37

being the hero. It's recognizing

45:39

that it's a group of peers at

45:41

first who come together. And

45:43

the great part about this is that's

45:45

how change has happened both directions, red,

45:47

blue, you name it. It started in that

45:49

way. And unfortunately, with the amount

45:51

of money now being poured into politics,

45:53

we think that with amplification of

45:55

the message and owning the algorithms and

45:57

platforms that we can influence it and bypass

45:59

it. that peer and oftentimes what you end up

46:01

seeing is these jokes of the astroturfing

46:03

on both sides of the aisle really

46:06

foolish. I think movements

46:08

don't have to be pristine. They

46:10

don't have to be like a

46:12

Maoist insurrection in the countryside. A

46:15

lot of movements, even good movements, it's

46:17

a kind of partnership

46:20

of concerned people on the

46:22

front line and experienced

46:24

organizers who come in and

46:26

help or foundations or, you or

46:30

know, people who happen to agree.

46:32

And so and not just a modern

46:35

phenomenon. look at Gandhi succeed living

46:37

his life of poverty because

46:39

he had millionaire supporting

46:42

his cause. And And you

46:44

need money. need money. So

46:47

a movement doesn't have to be

46:49

pristine, but it does have to

46:51

catch on. And I think a

46:53

grassroots movement, it operates through escalation

46:55

of commitment. You know, so if

46:57

you get, say you some person

46:59

stops you on the sidewalk, they

47:01

get you to sign something. After

47:04

you've signed it, then you feel like, yeah, I

47:06

should give some money. know, You know, then given some

47:08

money and then you're at a dinner party and

47:10

you're like, you know, we should really care

47:12

more about the whales. You know, because you've taken

47:14

this small step and then this medium step, then

47:16

you're going to take a bigger step. And

47:18

so so grassroots it's it's not

47:20

just telling people to vote. It's

47:22

getting people to volunteer and

47:24

so that they start taking action

47:26

towards a a cause and then

47:29

their commitment to the cause is

47:32

higher it would be be otherwise. know,

47:34

all these people going around with petitions. Part

47:36

of it is to bring new people in,

47:38

but part of it is to strengthen the

47:40

commitment of that petition seeker

47:42

because act of

47:45

seeking other people's

47:47

signatures galvanizes my commitment.

47:49

Yeah. most of those

47:51

movements, it's the peers

47:54

the signatures of yours. So

47:56

So rarely if you're stopped on the street and

47:58

you're the first signature. on the the clipboard, well, you

48:00

actually join the cause, but we start

48:02

to recognize that other people just like us

48:04

are signing the signature in our neighborhood,

48:06

and the list is growing, and I want

48:08

to be part of that. I want

48:10

to be part of that peers ,000 peers who

48:12

feel the same way as me. Yeah,

48:15

sometimes wonder whether the

48:17

first page of of is

48:19

fake, you know, because nobody to

48:22

join a cause that that

48:24

no other people in it. So

48:27

at the last part of the

48:29

book and tribalism, you know, kind

48:31

of started there with the political

48:33

discussion and the discourse around tribalism,

48:35

but it sounds like a

48:37

lot of these instincts have helped

48:39

us move forward, capitalize on

48:41

this group tribal knowledge to advance

48:44

society. When does tribalism

48:46

actually become toxic outside of

48:48

the political stuff that we discussed?

48:51

I to think about a couple of

48:53

examples in the book. I to think about,

48:55

you know, the red -blue conflict. I tried

48:57

to think about, you you know, sort

48:59

of the record racial protests about inequality in

49:01

the workplace, you know, know, and I tried

49:04

to think about the sectarian conflict, the

49:06

religious conflict that we see, you know,

49:08

in different parts of the world. And

49:11

I think that each of

49:13

them comes from a tribal instinct

49:15

that starts rippling out of

49:17

control, and it usually happens through

49:19

some kind of feedback loop. So

49:21

the political thing, I think

49:23

one one that's pretty clear about

49:25

the difference between now and, say,

49:27

a a generation ago or two

49:29

generations ago is first

49:31

the country has had massive

49:33

residential sorting. Democrats

49:35

to the coast, Republicans moved

49:37

to the heartland, you know. And

49:40

then we started to have

49:42

sorting by party in terms of

49:44

your news sources, whether it

49:46

was cable television or websites, blogs,

49:49

and started then social media feeds

49:51

is the most viral. And

49:53

so we enveloped by

49:55

these environments where almost

49:57

everybody shares our political.

49:59

view. use, and our

50:01

conformist instincts cause that

50:03

to happen, but then then

50:05

we're in those environments, the

50:07

conformity becomes really dangerous because

50:10

you know this of just taking on

50:12

the beliefs of the people that

50:15

are around us, whether on our

50:17

television screen or our neighbors. And

50:19

we're not even aware that we do it,

50:21

you know, just internalize it. And then we think

50:23

we're being objective because we consume more news

50:25

than anyone ever did before, but we're really

50:27

getting a sort of narrow range

50:30

of the full spectrum of news.

50:33

And so I think that's a case of

50:35

a feedback loop where the peer instinct

50:37

kind of changed our environments and

50:39

then the kind of conformist learning

50:41

that we always engaged in. became

50:43

really problematic because of these new environments

50:45

that we're in. And when

50:48

you diagnose it that way, it's not like

50:50

it makes the problem go away, but at

50:52

least it suggests solutions that you

50:54

wouldn't think of if you thought it

50:56

came from some sort of innate

50:58

desire to hate other people. And,

51:01

And you know, one of the solutions

51:03

is, you know, we need to get out

51:05

of our sorted neighborhoods, right? You know,

51:07

so I live on the Upper West

51:09

Side of New York and you know,

51:11

it's pretty democratic, you know, and there's just

51:13

all these every day, everything I see. it

51:16

it just sort of reinforces that

51:18

blue tribe mentality, you know, whether

51:20

it's the Whole Foods, the Lulu

51:22

lemon, you know, if you look

51:24

at congressional districts, Whole Foods and

51:26

Lulu lemons are always in blue

51:28

tribe neighborhoods. Cracker barrels and

51:30

hobby lobbies are in red tribe neighborhoods.

51:32

So it's important to, you know, take

51:35

vacations in places that expose us to

51:37

different parts of the country. You

51:39

know, if You know, if we to think of

51:41

ourselves as curious, open -minded people, we should

51:44

try to, to, you know, break out of our

51:46

bubble. every now and then And you know,

51:48

change the channel, you know, it's painful to

51:50

watch Fox News if you're you're a Democrat, but

51:52

you should try to do it or at

51:54

least, you know, read The Economist or read, you

51:56

know, read you some libertarian things to get

51:58

a sense of the other perspective and So you

52:00

think that it's coming from this sort of

52:02

conformity, there are things you can do to

52:04

free yourself from it and things you

52:06

can do to try to affect the

52:09

people around you to kind of down the

52:11

bubbles. I think from

52:13

a toxicity standpoint, the two

52:15

things that stand out for

52:17

me is the dehumanization of

52:19

the out-group the

52:21

isolation from kin and

52:23

friends who are

52:25

in quote unquote the out-group. So

52:28

see this in cult-like behavior. you see these

52:30

movements to isolate you from what

52:32

is the outgroup, immerse you in

52:34

the in-group, and over time, through that

52:36

immersion, you feel that the only

52:38

acceptable culture is this cult -like phenomenon

52:40

that you're a part of. And

52:42

you're isolated from family members, you're

52:44

not inviting your aunts and uncles to

52:47

the Thanksgiving dinner coming up because

52:49

of who they voted for, you're dehumanizing

52:51

the other side the language that you

52:53

choose to use and isolating them.

52:55

And I think that has led to

52:57

a lot of the toxicity that's

52:59

just turned a bunch of people off

53:02

from politics in general. I understand

53:04

the need to move people to

53:06

vote and oftentimes we have to prey on

53:08

hatred and fear to motivate humans

53:10

to take action. But the downside of

53:12

that is, you know, now we're approaching

53:14

Thanksgiving and we got to sit across

53:16

from each other. We're all Americans

53:19

here and it is a toxic environment

53:21

when started to label either side

53:23

in such ways. The other

53:25

thing I want to add to that as

53:27

well is when people become afraid, they cling

53:29

they cling to their safety

53:31

that much harder, which

53:33

is their in -group

53:35

preference. And if

53:38

that tribal embrace is

53:40

not there, well, then

53:42

no relief. So as

53:44

long as if tribe is going to be strong, well,

53:46

then of course you're going to have to be

53:48

so welcome to out-groups. And if

53:50

that group is loose, then

53:52

you will be. So what good

53:54

is the safety and the utility

53:56

of that group if it's not

53:58

close-knit, if it's not exp... exclusive if

54:00

it's not Regimen order to

54:03

be in there when you actually

54:05

feel like you earn that spot

54:07

Yeah it's like do you need boundaries to

54:09

have a cohesive group? Is that you know

54:11

the idea? I I think there is a

54:13

a trade -off there, and I think it's

54:16

a challenge to Develop big movements,

54:18

you know as opposed to movements

54:20

that are narrower But I do

54:22

think that tribal motivations can be

54:24

used in Inclusive populism like they can

54:26

be used in divisive populism, and

54:28

I can point to a lot

54:30

of examples But given that is

54:33

coming up I always like the

54:35

example of Abraham Lincoln because you example think

54:37

our politics is divided today But

54:39

he took over with less than

54:41

of the of the popular vote Seven

54:44

states before his inauguration the Civil

54:46

started up You know a few

54:48

weeks after it and his first

54:50

inauguration, you you know he was

54:52

looking at this really difficult

54:54

task he said the mystic chords

54:56

of memory will swell the chorus of

54:58

the Union you know and people were like

55:00

What is he talking about? But he really

55:02

believed that if we thought about the

55:04

past if we thought about our common ancestors

55:06

we would be able to get beyond the

55:09

current misunderstanding and One of

55:11

the things that he did in addition

55:13

to all these great speeches like the Gettysburg Address

55:15

he talked about our Forefathers came to

55:17

this land, you know drawing attention to

55:19

the ancestors He the

55:21

holiday of Thanksgiving and we

55:23

all grow up thinking that you know that

55:25

pilgrims invented Thanksgiving Well the pilgrims had a feast,

55:27

you know when they had their first

55:29

successful harvest They didn't call it a Thanksgiving

55:32

it got kind of confused over time

55:34

because Puritans did hold something called a a

55:36

Thanksgiving But that was like a prayer

55:38

ceremony and the the feast that they

55:40

held was you know they were like

55:42

drinking and shooting off guns and was a a very

55:44

different kind of thing and Around

55:46

the 1860s a a bunch

55:48

of like leaders of the time thought,

55:51

you know, okay, the country's really

55:53

divided Maybe we should

55:55

have a national holiday in

55:57

the autumn. That is like

55:59

a about reconciliation and and togetherness and

56:02

memory, and Thanksgiving. And,

56:04

you know, they had been lofting this

56:06

idea to several presidents, but it was

56:08

Lincoln who thought, yeah, you know, that's

56:10

what we need. And, you know, it

56:12

wasn't like the South, I the first

56:14

year that 1863, it's not like

56:16

the South really got on board,

56:19

but after the Civil War,

56:21

they did. And you know, within

56:23

a decade, it was regarded as

56:25

like a national ritual, like a

56:27

sacred tradition. and it brought people

56:29

together. So, you know, looking

56:31

at the past and thinking about, you

56:33

know, what we've inherited from the past

56:35

can be a way of building unity.

56:37

It's not always going to be a

56:39

way of building division. Well, Well, it's a

56:41

great place to end it. Thank you

56:44

so much for joining us, Michael. Where

56:46

can our audience find out more about

56:48

the book and the work that you

56:50

do? Well, there's a website for the

56:52

book. It's called tribalbook .org. I also

56:54

have a website, MichaelWMorris.com, where

56:56

you can read about my research

56:58

and the book. I'm at

57:00

Columbia University in New York, which is

57:02

known for tribalism of a different kind,

57:04

but you can look me up at

57:06

the university website as well. And I

57:08

love to get emails from people and, you

57:11

know, please take a look at the

57:13

book or enjoy this podcast. Thank you

57:15

for joining us. We really appreciate it.

57:17

Thanks for having me. What

57:28

a fantastic episode. And now

57:30

comes the part where we showcase

57:32

one of our members of

57:34

our X Factor Accelerator. Take it away,

57:36

Eric. My name is Eric Douglas. I

57:39

work in the nonprofit field. The

57:41

reason why I joined X

57:43

Factor is I wanted

57:45

to have deeper relationships. I

57:47

also wanted to build

57:49

opportunities around dating, career

57:51

and social life on

57:53

my terms. X

57:55

has helped immensely help me see

57:57

through my own. patterns

58:00

behaviors, got me to

58:02

see how I was accepting a

58:04

lot of bad behavior around me.

58:07

So So am looking forward

58:09

to building a life on

58:11

my terms. That's already started

58:13

in the X Factor program. I've

58:15

been connecting with amazing people

58:18

and doing things I never

58:20

thought I would do. So

58:22

I would encourage anybody to

58:24

join. It's very valuable. Thank

58:26

you for the kind words, Eric. and it was

58:28

a pleasure working with you too. and good luck

58:30

to all of your future endeavors. If

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out there and crush. Shit. I

1:00:01

remember you remember you. You

1:00:04

were the boy You

1:00:07

threw your life away

1:00:10

like you was just a

1:00:12

toy And

1:00:14

you saw the world

1:00:16

You a song of

1:00:18

a tragedy. Cause

1:00:20

you had your

1:00:22

had your taste of black on

1:00:24

the x-ray. Yeah,

1:00:27

I remember you. Oh,

1:00:30

yeah, I remember I

1:00:32

remember you You were

1:00:34

the bad boy. boy You You bad

1:00:37

drew your love away.