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Visit life lock.com/podcast terms apply. Hey

1:01

everyone it's Audie and I'm gonna do a

1:04

little something different today because I want to

1:06

introduce you to this new CNN podcast

1:08

called Terms of Service. Now

1:10

on this show we've talked about AI and social

1:13

media algorithms but like all

1:15

this technology is changing really

1:17

quickly and how we relate

1:19

to it is changing really quickly and

1:22

Terms of Service is gonna like tackle

1:24

that in a real substantive way. The

1:26

host is here CNN tech reporter Claire

1:28

Duffy. Claire welcome to the assignment. Thanks

1:30

for having me. Now I feel like

1:32

when it comes to tech reporting they're

1:34

sort of like tech optimism and then

1:37

there's fear mongering frankly. How

1:40

do you want to approach it? Yeah look

1:42

I mean I think when we cover tech

1:44

so often we're focused on the future what

1:46

is this tech going to mean five ten

1:48

years down the road. I mean you look

1:50

at AI and it's gonna change everything about

1:52

the way that we work and we communicate

1:54

and I think that's all true and important

1:56

to think about but that's not so helpful

1:58

if the conversation stops there. to people

2:00

who are trying to figure out right now, what

2:02

does this mean for my life? Is this gonna

2:04

change my job? How do I talk to my

2:07

kids about this? Change my job or lose my

2:09

job? Exactly, and so I think what I want

2:11

for terms of service to do is really to

2:13

talk to people about the tech that's showing up

2:15

in their lives right now. How do

2:17

you use it? How do you maybe

2:19

protect yourself from the downsides of it?

2:21

And sort of get away from the

2:23

hype and the fear and give people

2:25

real practical tips about how to engage

2:27

with the technology right now. So talk

2:29

about this episode that we're about to

2:31

hear. Yes, so the episode we're about

2:33

to hear, I spoke with Leah Plunkett,

2:35

who is both a parent and a

2:37

privacy researcher at Harvard. And we talked

2:40

about the things that parents should think

2:42

about before they post their kids on

2:44

social media. Ooh, because a whole generation

2:46

of parents grew up posting on social

2:48

media. Exactly, and social media has changed

2:50

really quickly. It went from being this

2:52

sort of private way to communicate with

2:54

your college friends and your faraway family,

2:56

and now it is so much more

2:58

public. And I think we're all still

3:00

sort of catching up to what that

3:02

means, especially for kids. And so what

3:04

I love about this interview is that

3:06

Leah isn't necessarily prescriptive. It's not a

3:08

yes or no answer. But she gives

3:10

some things to think about, you know,

3:12

about your kids' physical safety and privacy,

3:14

about the ways that they might want

3:16

to craft their own online image, just

3:18

some considerations for parents to make before

3:20

they decide how and when and whether

3:22

to post their kids. And also to

3:25

have some conversations with the other people

3:27

in their kids' lives, grandparents, teachers, coaches,

3:29

because it really is sort of a

3:31

community conversation that needs to be had.

3:33

And that's what I really hope that

3:35

this podcast will do with a lot

3:37

of different subjects, is give people some

3:39

sort of like dinner table conversation about

3:41

these things. Which they're having, but it's

3:43

hard when you're sort of only semi-informed

3:45

about what's going on. Exactly, yeah. And

3:47

this is tech that is influencing

3:49

all of our lives in so many ways.

3:51

And so I think, I hope that this

3:53

will sort of help people engage with some

3:55

of those conversations with the people in their

3:57

lives. OK, guys, stick around.

3:59

around because you're going to hear an

4:02

episode of Terms of Service. And

4:04

when it's done, I want you to go

4:06

and download more. Here's the

4:08

episode on kids and privacy. I

4:12

was nine years old when my mom posted

4:14

that I got my first period on her

4:18

page and that to this

4:20

day still makes me uncomfortable. Cam

4:24

Barrett grew up as a content kid.

4:26

Her mom would post her daily activities

4:28

on social media. Some

4:30

posts were mundane, like Cam playing

4:32

with toys. But other

4:34

moments, Cam wishes could have been kept

4:36

within the family. I

4:39

never chose to have my adoption

4:41

journey posted on social media. I

4:44

never chose to have like

4:46

my medical history, my medical

4:48

trauma exploited on

4:50

social media. Now

4:52

Cam has her own TikTok where she looks

4:54

back on all of it. That's what you're

4:56

hearing. I never chose

4:58

to have like, you

5:01

know, thousands of people just seeing all

5:03

of these things about me. I never

5:05

chose to tell strangers on the Internet

5:07

any of that stuff about me. These

5:11

days, Cam advocates for the protection of

5:13

children on social media. Here she is

5:15

in February of 2024 talking to the

5:17

Maryland House of Delegates. As

5:19

an adult, I'm still learning how to navigate this life

5:22

with a digital footprint I can't remove. Members

5:24

of the committee, I plead with you to

5:26

think about this generation of children who give

5:28

their parents free labor to maintain a social

5:30

media presence. I'm

5:33

Claire Duffy. I'm a tech reporter with

5:35

CNN and this is Terms of Service.

5:43

Cam isn't the only one who's had

5:45

moments from her childhood published for the world

5:47

to see. Even parents

5:49

with the best intentions or those sharing

5:52

only with family might not realize the

5:54

risks of posting their kids online. So

5:57

what should parents and caregivers consider?

6:00

before hitting post. To

6:02

answer this question, I brought in Leah Plunkett,

6:04

faculty at Harvard Law School, and the author

6:06

of the book, Sharon Hood, why

6:09

we should think before we talk about our kids

6:11

online. Unfortunately, once something

6:14

is posted online, you really do

6:16

lose control over it. It can

6:18

be screenshotted, it can be downloaded,

6:20

it can be reshared. Sharon-ting

6:23

is exactly what it sounds like,

6:25

sharing as a parent. And

6:27

Leah's not just a privacy expert. As

6:30

a parent herself, she's had to think about this

6:32

a lot. Okay,

6:36

so Leah, to start, I am going

6:38

to ask you to do a little

6:40

Sharon-ting, but obviously only as much as

6:42

you're comfortable with. Sounds great. You have

6:44

kids, right? I do, I've got

6:46

two kids. And what does

6:48

your approach to sharing about your own

6:51

kids online look like? My

6:54

own approach to sharing about

6:56

my own kids online is

6:58

incredibly minimal. I

7:00

do stay in close touch with

7:02

family and friends and communities that

7:04

are important to me using

7:06

digital devices and services, but

7:10

I am very focused

7:12

on privacy, protecting ways

7:15

of doing that. So to give a more

7:17

concrete example, if I want to

7:19

share something that I'm proud of with my

7:21

kiddos, which I do all the time, I

7:24

will send a text message. I

7:27

don't use social media, even

7:30

social media set to more

7:32

privacy protecting measures to

7:35

share updates or photos or

7:37

videos of my kids. So

7:39

before we get into the potential risks

7:42

here, social media obviously is not all

7:44

bad and people have lots of reasons

7:46

why they share. I'm curious

7:48

how you think about the potential

7:50

benefits of share-inting

7:52

or parents discussing their kids

7:54

online. Are there good parts

7:56

of that too? There

7:59

are so many. good parts. I

8:01

hear pretty frequently from parents and

8:04

other caregivers who have children with

8:08

disabilities or special needs, especially

8:10

if you have a family

8:12

member for whom you're caring,

8:14

where there may only be a couple

8:16

of dozen people in the world that

8:18

have the same situation. Having a

8:21

community of care through

8:23

which you are exchanging insights, asking

8:25

questions, offering support can truly be life-saving.

8:28

So that's a big one. Another

8:30

one is being able as

8:34

a parent to maintain

8:36

and ideally grow social,

8:39

emotional, and other types of

8:41

bonds. Parenting can be a

8:44

very isolating experience. Last but

8:47

not least, there are many

8:49

ways for parents to include

8:51

their kids in their

8:53

social media activities in

8:55

a way that is privacy protecting

8:58

and also models strong,

9:01

virtuous digital citizenship for

9:03

their kids. When

9:06

you talk about privacy for

9:09

kids online, what are you talking

9:11

about there? What are the different

9:13

sort of facets that go into

9:16

somebody's privacy or how public they

9:19

are with their information online? The

9:21

first is the sharing

9:23

or not of specific

9:25

information that could allow

9:27

somebody seeing it to

9:30

identify the location

9:32

or likely location of a child

9:34

in real life. Next,

9:37

I'm talking about protecting

9:40

information about children that

9:43

the child now or in

9:45

the future might

9:47

reasonably find embarrassing

9:49

or uncomfortable. And

9:52

I'm not talking about sort of

9:54

the stereotypical eye roll that teenagers

9:56

tend to give at anything

9:58

and everything their parents need. parents do or

10:01

could possibly do, right? We can't parent to

10:03

that eye roll or we would never do

10:05

anything. But maybe

10:07

the two-year-old who is

10:09

having tantrums or doesn't want to be

10:12

toilet trained isn't going to

10:14

know or care. The

10:16

nine-year-old, the 12-year-old, the

10:18

18-year-old who realizes that

10:20

people outside of the family knew

10:23

or might still know about those

10:25

experiences and they might have video

10:28

footage of it, that's pretty uncomfortable.

10:31

Last but not least, I am talking

10:33

about information being shared

10:35

that might make it difficult

10:38

for a child to

10:40

tell their own story

10:42

about themselves. One

10:44

of the wonderful things about being

10:46

a kid and being a teenager

10:49

should be having a protected space

10:51

to play, to make mischief,

10:53

make a few mistakes and learn from

10:55

them and grow up better for having

10:57

made them. And when

10:59

we take away that protected space

11:02

to play by providing in real-time

11:05

documentation that may well live on,

11:07

we really are depriving kids of that

11:10

space to figure out who they are

11:12

and who they want to become. I

11:15

think about that all the time. I'm

11:17

so grateful that I got to

11:19

be a kid and be goofy

11:21

and learn without having

11:23

my every move broadcast online, without

11:25

even having that be a possibility.

11:28

You mentioned some of the potential

11:31

pitfalls there, but what are the

11:33

potential worst-case scenarios from posting photos

11:36

or information about kids online that

11:38

parents should be aware of? The

11:41

potential worst-case scenarios are pretty

11:44

bad. I don't want to freak people out. They

11:46

are not the norm, but they are real. The

11:50

first is in-person

11:52

physical harm or

11:55

threat of harm to your child. If people who

11:58

should be in the room, they should be in

12:00

the room. not have access to your child and

12:02

their whereabouts, figure out where your child is, that

12:05

can result in some pretty scary

12:07

scenarios around stalking, harassment,

12:09

bullying, and other types of

12:11

illegal or criminal activity. And

12:14

one thing I sometimes mention to parents when

12:16

I talk about this, for those of us

12:18

like me, who I'm the tail end

12:20

of Gen X, I grew up

12:22

without technology. And I sometimes say, my parents

12:25

would have never put my full

12:28

name, my date of birth, my

12:30

phone number, my home address, my

12:32

likes and dislikes on

12:35

a poster board and stuck it up in

12:37

the center of my town. Because why do

12:39

a bunch of people in my town, as

12:41

lovely as it was, need to know that?

12:44

And the answer is they don't. We

12:46

do know that a lot of

12:48

kids and teenagers encounter

12:51

inappropriate, dangerous, or

12:53

criminal situations online.

12:56

That sometimes happens just through

12:58

a child or teen's own

13:00

engagement without anything a parent

13:02

has shared. But there's absolutely

13:04

no reason that a parent should be

13:07

creating additional sources of

13:09

information that could be

13:11

used online in inappropriate

13:14

ways. That is even more true

13:16

at this point with

13:18

new and emerging generative artificial

13:21

intelligence tools, where a

13:23

child's face, voice,

13:26

and other aspects of

13:28

their identity can be

13:30

repurposed by

13:32

generative AI tools. Those

13:35

are kind of the really

13:38

scary things that it's important for parents

13:40

to realize can happen. And

13:43

when you talk about the generative AI

13:45

piece in particular, one

13:47

of the things that comes to

13:49

mind for me is we've seen

13:51

teenagers have their photos manipulated to

13:53

make deep fake porn that was

13:55

created by their peers, or parents

13:57

get those scary voice calls that

14:00

sound like they're coming from their kids, but

14:02

it's really just AI has used

14:04

their voice. Are those the kinds of things that

14:06

you're talking about there? Those

14:09

are the kinds of things that I'm talking about

14:11

there. Something that

14:13

I suggest families think about doing

14:16

is creating a safe word or two that

14:19

you talk about as a family

14:21

and that truly only the family would

14:24

know. And I would say really spend

14:26

a little time thinking about this because

14:28

there's a lot that can be gleaned

14:30

from social media often. So I would

14:32

not make your safe word

14:34

like your family pet if you've ever

14:37

mentioned them on social media, but

14:39

include grandparents and aunts and uncles and

14:41

others in the family circle and

14:44

come up with a word that everyone

14:46

would know to ask if

14:48

they got a call from a

14:52

voice purporting to be a child or

14:54

more likely a teenager or young adult.

14:57

Have the risks always been there? I mean,

14:59

obviously you've been thinking about this for a

15:02

long time, but have they

15:04

gotten more extreme as social media has

15:06

gone from this mostly friends

15:08

and family based sharing to

15:11

sharing with the world more broadly in this sort

15:13

of influencer era that we're living in? The

15:16

risks have definitely gotten more extreme in

15:19

a couple of ways. A big one is that

15:22

the influencer era that we're now in, you

15:24

put it perfectly, is a really big

15:27

business, a lot of

15:30

which involves kids. I

15:32

sometimes talk about the

15:34

family or kid influencer sector

15:36

as being like a silicon

15:39

kitchen almost. So

15:42

we have obviously Silicon Valley making

15:44

the products and then you have

15:46

kitchen tables literally or metaphorically being where

15:48

a lot of this content is filmed.

15:51

So now in the United States, it

15:53

is accurate for us to be talking

15:55

about Broadway on the East Coast, Hollywood

15:58

on the West Coast. and silicon

16:00

kitchens across the country. And

16:03

of those three global

16:05

leading entertainment sectors, the

16:07

only one that doesn't yet

16:10

have that much, if any,

16:12

regulation is the silicon

16:14

kitchen. It is

16:17

the child and family

16:19

influencer sector. Family

16:22

influencers have bigger audiences than the

16:24

average parent who's posting their kids

16:26

online. But audience size doesn't

16:29

matter when it comes to sharing your

16:31

data and your kids' data

16:33

with social media companies. After

16:36

the break, we'll get into some of the more

16:38

surprising ways sharing your kids online can put them

16:40

at risk. This

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episode is brought to you by Etsy.

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18:11

I'm curious about facial recognition

18:13

and ad targeting information systems.

18:16

Should parents also be thinking about the way

18:19

that posting their kids information could feed into

18:21

those kinds of data sets as their kids

18:23

start to grow up? Parents

18:25

should absolutely be aware that

18:28

unless they are living in

18:30

a state with particularly heightened

18:32

state privacy protections for things

18:35

like biometric information, they

18:38

very likely somewhere buried deep

18:40

in the pages upon pages

18:42

of terms that they've clicked

18:44

accept for that they

18:46

probably haven't read. And that's not a critique.

18:48

That's just a reality. They

18:51

probably are giving some sort of permission for

18:54

some or all of the information

18:56

about their kids to be integrated

18:58

in two data sets. It's

19:01

important for parents to proceed

19:03

as if anything

19:06

that they are putting into a social

19:08

media platform could wind up being part

19:10

of a data set that is used

19:13

for a number of

19:15

advertising and marketing purposes, AI

19:17

training purposes and other purposes

19:19

that probably aren't apparent. And

19:22

I would add that may

19:24

not even exist yet. The

19:26

New York Times ran a really powerful piece

19:29

in early 2019. I believe

19:32

it was that looked at

19:34

how photos of kids

19:36

that were shared on social media

19:38

back in the early 2000s

19:41

had wound up being used to train

19:43

facial recognition technology. So

19:45

I do think it's important for us to

19:48

have that moment of gosh, if

19:51

we are signing on for this

19:54

seemingly free or low cost service,

19:56

we're probably paying for all or

19:58

less. or most of it with

20:01

the currency of data. So

20:04

maybe we don't want to include our

20:06

kids' data in that payment we're making.

20:09

It's so interesting. I mean, I am

20:11

a paranoid tech reporter, but I've thought

20:13

about, like, I've gone back and removed

20:15

kid photos I posted of myself from

20:17

Instagram because I'm like, I don't know

20:19

how I'm training the facial recognition tools

20:23

to recognize me as I

20:25

grow up. I love

20:27

that paranoid tech reporter approach. I

20:29

think it's spot on. What

20:32

do you think it's going to mean for this

20:34

current generation of children that so

20:36

many of them, if not most of them,

20:38

are going to grow up having had at

20:40

least some of their lives shared online? I

20:44

think it will mean some of

20:46

them will

20:49

develop really innovative,

20:51

really powerful leadership

20:54

around privacy protection. One

20:57

of the things I find so heartening that's happening

21:00

right now, Claire, is that

21:02

the leaders of the

21:04

state level movement for kid

21:06

and family influencer labor law

21:08

reform are young people themselves

21:11

who've looked at this Silicon Kitchen influencer

21:14

industry and said, wait, wait, wait,

21:16

hold up. So that is

21:18

something I think we will continue to see.

21:21

The other thing I think we

21:23

may see is a

21:26

lot of uncomfortable moments of reckoning

21:29

as the growing up, sharented generations

21:31

get older. We

21:33

may see some pretty intense

21:37

questions, concerns, and

21:40

anger from some of them at

21:42

the parents or other adult caregivers

21:45

in their lives for displaying private

21:48

information. Last but

21:50

not least, I do predict

21:52

we will continue to see data-driven

21:55

decision making that draws on

21:57

private information about the future.

22:00

kids and teenagers for

22:02

gatekeeping, pretty important life

22:04

opportunities, things like employment,

22:06

insurance, and so on.

22:09

That's interesting. So you're worried that insurance

22:12

companies may in the future use data

22:15

from social media that was shared

22:18

about kids? I

22:20

am a paranoid law teacher

22:23

and researcher, so I

22:25

do worry that insurance companies and

22:27

all major gatekeepers

22:29

for major opportunities will

22:32

in the course of doing data-driven

22:35

decision making, either consciously

22:37

or not consciously, wind up drawing

22:39

on information that has been obtained

22:43

about kids. We should

22:45

all be a little uncomfortable with the

22:47

idea that something that you do in

22:49

the seeming privacy of

22:51

your own home can wind up

22:54

folded into one or

22:56

more digital record system that

22:58

exists about you and then

23:00

be used

23:02

to make decisions about

23:05

opportunities you get now

23:07

in the future. Is

23:11

it not just enough to make sure that

23:13

you're posting photos of your kids on a

23:15

private Instagram page or a Facebook group where

23:17

you've, you know, in theory approved

23:19

all of your followers, you've got your close

23:21

friend story on Instagram, but

23:23

are there still pitfalls even when you feel

23:26

like you're posting to a group that you

23:28

know who's in it? Unfortunately,

23:30

once something is posted

23:32

online, you really do lose control over

23:34

it. It can be screenshotted, it can

23:37

be downloaded, it can be reshared. Really

23:39

all it takes is for someone in

23:41

your friend group to be looking at

23:43

it on a subway and

23:45

someone's looking over their shoulder in films. It

23:47

can be hard to really

23:50

keep close track of everybody

23:52

who is in your even

23:55

private networks unless you keep them

23:57

so small. And

23:59

if you you're keeping them that small,

24:02

you can kind of accomplish more

24:05

or less the same information

24:07

sharing and community

24:10

building and community maintenance

24:12

from a group text thread, ideally

24:15

through an encrypted app. Encrypted

24:19

messaging apps make sending and receiving

24:21

messages more secure. Basically,

24:23

these apps scramble up your message on its

24:25

way to the recipient so that it can't

24:27

be read by a third party along the

24:29

way. Some of the

24:32

most popular encrypted apps are Signal and

24:34

WhatsApp, but they aren't the

24:36

only options for safer sharing. There

24:39

are also apps like TinyBeans or Family Album

24:41

that allow you to pick a closer circle

24:43

of people to share with. Or

24:45

you can just make a shared Google or Apple

24:48

photo album. If

24:50

you are working with a reputable

24:52

service or platform that is offering

24:54

parents a more private experience, you

24:57

should feel better about those than something

24:59

like Instagram or Facebook

25:01

with the settings set to private.

25:04

Because ideally, there is

25:06

a contract, that contract being

25:08

wherever you have clicked, continue

25:11

or I accept on the very

25:13

long list of fine print that

25:15

you probably haven't read all of.

25:18

But provided that the service or

25:20

platform is actually putting in their

25:23

limits on what they will do with your

25:25

information, how long they will keep it. And

25:28

so I do encourage parents who

25:30

want to join us in the

25:32

more privacy protecting or privacy paranoid

25:34

camp over here, Claire, to check

25:36

out what's available. I'm

25:38

curious, there are some parents who

25:40

are pushing back on this idea

25:42

that they should be solely responsible

25:45

for keeping their kids safe and

25:47

protected on social media and that

25:49

the platforms themselves should bear some

25:51

more accountability for safety. Who

25:53

do you think is ultimately responsible for

25:56

the privacy and safety of children online?

26:00

I do think that platforms and

26:02

parents each have roles to play.

26:05

And I do think there is room

26:07

for most of the major platforms to

26:09

do a lot more than they're currently

26:11

doing. It's just

26:13

not reasonable to think that

26:16

a parent trying to make a split second

26:18

decision about whether or not to click accept

26:21

on a new app is going to have the time

26:23

to parse pages and

26:26

pages of information. I

26:29

do, though, think that parents are always

26:31

inevitably in the United States going to

26:33

have a big role to play. And

26:36

that is an outgrowth of the

26:39

fact that here in the U.S.

26:42

individuals and partners

26:44

have a lot of

26:46

constitutionally protected freedom around

26:50

whether and with whom and how

26:52

to become parents. And once they

26:55

become parents to raise their family,

26:57

I want to see the

26:59

platforms do more. But I

27:01

also don't want to lose one

27:04

ounce of the freedom

27:06

I now enjoy as a parent to

27:09

decide with my wonderful husband how best

27:11

to raise our kids. And

27:14

so with freedom comes

27:16

responsibility. So even

27:18

if a parent decides not to post

27:20

photos of their child, we live in

27:23

this time when everybody has a phone,

27:25

almost everybody has social media, and not

27:27

everybody is so mindful of whether they've

27:29

gotten the OK to share pictures of

27:32

other people. How would you

27:34

recommend parents navigate that? I

27:38

recommend that parents try

27:41

to have digital privacy

27:43

and broader sort of

27:45

digital citizenship discussions the

27:47

same way they would have a

27:50

food allergy discussion. So

27:52

my experience has been, I think this is pretty common,

27:55

that it is very normal at this

27:57

point for a parent dropping their food.

27:59

a kid off to the first day of school

28:01

or dropping a kid off for a play date

28:04

or a sports practice for a younger kid to

28:06

say, hey, heads up, my child has a

28:08

peanut allergy. I would encourage, it's

28:10

not yet the norm, I know that, but

28:13

parents both proactively to

28:15

offer, but ideally also

28:17

parents to inquire, hey,

28:20

any preferences or rules of

28:22

the road in your family

28:25

around sharing and posting pictures,

28:27

but then take it one step further. Any

28:30

rules of the road or preferences in

28:32

your family around device use or social

28:34

media, the more that

28:36

we as parents and other

28:39

adults in children's lives can

28:41

normalize having a discussion about

28:43

digital privacy and citizenship, the

28:45

better. Leah,

28:47

thank you so much. I really appreciate your

28:49

time. My pleasure. Thank

28:52

you. Thanks

28:55

again to Leah Plunkett. I

28:57

also want to hear from you if you're a

28:59

parent or have kids in your life. Do

29:01

you have rules of the road for how much you

29:03

share your kids online or any

29:05

tips you've picked up along the way for protecting

29:07

their privacy? Give us a call

29:10

or send us an email. Our contact information is

29:12

in the show notes. In

29:14

the meantime, here's a quick recap of

29:16

the tips Leah shared, three key takeaways

29:18

to think about when it comes to

29:20

sharing your kids online. First,

29:23

the safest way to protect your child

29:26

from an unwanted internet presence is not

29:28

to post them on social media or

29:30

other public platforms at all. But

29:33

if you do, give yourself guardrails

29:35

like covering their faces and photos

29:37

or sharing photos and videos with

29:39

only close friends and family. You

29:42

could also consider sharing via old-fashioned texting

29:44

rather than on social media. Next,

29:47

remember that once you post something

29:49

online, you lose control over that

29:52

information. And so does your kid.

29:55

Consider talking to your child about what you're posting

29:57

on social media so that they have a say

29:59

in that decision. Finally,

30:02

talk to fellow parents, teachers, coaches, and

30:04

other people who interact with your child

30:06

to make sure you're on the same

30:08

page. That's it

30:10

for this week. I'm Claire Duffy. Catch you

30:12

next time. Terms

30:16

of Service is a CNN audio and goat

30:18

rodeo production. This show is

30:20

produced and hosted by me, Claire Duffy. At

30:24

Goat Rodeo, the lead producer is Rebecca

30:26

Seidel, and the executive producers are Megan

30:28

Nodolsky and Ian Enright. At

30:31

CNN, Hayley Thomas is our senior producer

30:33

and Dan Dzula is our technical director.

30:36

Steve Lichtai is the executive producer of

30:38

CNN Audio. With

30:40

support from Taylor Phillips, David

30:42

Reind, Dan Blume, Robert Mathers,

30:45

Jameis Andrus, Nicole Pussaroo, Alex

30:47

Minissary, Laini Steinhardt, John Deonora,

30:50

and Lisa Namaro. Special

30:52

thanks to Katie Hinman and Wendy Brundage. Thank

30:55

you for listening. I

30:58

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