0:00

Back in 2023, the man who had

0:02

once run the Office of Management

0:04

and Budget, or OMB, during Donald

0:06

Trump's first term, was giving a

0:08

speech at an invitation-only event put

0:11

on by his think tank, the

0:13

Center for Renewing America. Russell Vote,

0:15

a Christian nationalist and budget

0:17

policy wonk, spoke about the

0:19

lessons he had taken away

0:22

from his experience in office,

0:24

and in a video uncovered

0:27

by the investigative journalist organization

0:29

pro-publica, He explained what would

0:31

be necessary to reimagine the

0:34

federal government bureaucracy should Trump

0:36

be re-elected. Again, this is

0:38

from 2023. We want the bureaucrats

0:40

to be dramatically affected.

0:43

When they woke up in the morning,

0:45

we want them to not want to go

0:47

to work. because they are so they

0:49

are increasingly viewed as the villains.

0:51

We want their funding to be

0:54

shut down so that the EPA

0:56

can't do all of the rules

0:58

against our energy industry because they

1:00

have no bandwidth financially to do

1:02

so. We want to put them

1:04

in trauma. Vote is now on

1:07

track for a second tour as

1:09

Donald Trump's director of the OMB.

1:11

But before he even assumes office,

1:13

the blueprint that he outlined back

1:15

in 2023 is unfolding now. with

1:18

the help of a so-called special

1:20

government employee. Elon Musk remains on

1:22

his mission to revamp the federal

1:25

workforce. He's also so in confusion

1:27

and chaos within government ranks. The

1:29

White House calling Musk a special

1:31

government employee working only at the

1:34

approval of the president. What remains

1:36

unclear though is whether an unelected

1:38

businessman can wield this level of

1:41

authority. Elon Musk and his

1:43

Department of Government efficiency, otherwise

1:45

known as Doge, have rattled

1:47

the Federal Civil Service to its

1:49

core. This week, hundreds of people attended

1:52

a constituent town hall in Leesburg, Virginia,

1:54

to talk about it. This audio was

1:56

captured by Radio Station WTOP. I've been

1:58

a federal worker for 24 years, so

2:01

we have my agency for that long.

2:03

And every day for the last week

2:05

or two, everyone has been scared. Everyone

2:07

is afraid every day because she was

2:10

going to drop and we're going to

2:12

get it cut. So now that the

2:14

richest man in the world has been

2:16

put in charge of remaking the US

2:19

government, the questions are, how is he

2:21

doing it? Who's helping him to do

2:23

it? And what does it mean for

2:25

the government services you might just be

2:28

taking for granted? I'm Audie Cornish, and

2:30

this is the assignment. So

2:32

think about your keychain. Like

2:35

each key is meaningful in

2:37

its own way. To your

2:40

door locks, your car, special

2:42

rooms in your office, or

2:44

home. Well, government departments are

2:47

a lot like those keys.

2:49

And Doge has gotten a

2:52

hold of some of the

2:54

most important ones. The Bureau

2:57

of the Fiscal Service? Well,

2:59

that's basically the government's checkbook.

3:02

Paying everyone from defense contractors

3:04

to your social security checks

3:06

and tax refunds. The General

3:09

Services Administration? Well, it keeps an

3:11

eye on government real estate. And also,

3:13

it's IT. The Office of Personal Management

3:15

is basically the file cabinet on

3:17

every person who has, does, or

3:19

might want to work for the

3:21

federal government. Unlike any of

3:24

the offices I've listed here, Doge was

3:26

not set up by Congress. Musk is

3:28

not a cabinet official, nor is it

3:30

clear if the people he is bringing

3:32

on are serving in any official capacity.

3:35

A source at OPM told

3:37

CNN that they are, quote,

3:39

making back-end changes without regard

3:41

to federal norms and requirements.

3:43

Wired magazine writer Victoria Elliot

3:46

has been following Musk for

3:48

some time. She and her

3:50

team profiled the young engineers

3:52

carrying out the work. Most

3:55

come from Musk companies, Tesla,

3:57

SpaceX, and others. So in the

3:59

course of... you're reporting, you found

4:01

specific engineers, and we're going to

4:03

get to that. But talk to

4:05

me about the agencies that have

4:07

been taken over, that have allowed

4:09

the Musk folks the kind of

4:11

keys to the castle, so to

4:13

speak. Are they existing agencies? Are

4:15

they new ones? Like, how are

4:17

they getting people in the building,

4:20

so to speak? Sure. So the first

4:22

thing that we need to look

4:24

at is what used to be

4:26

the US digital service. That is

4:29

what has become... Doge. And the

4:31

U.S. Digital Service was a part

4:33

of the Obama administration. They were

4:35

tasked with sort of working across

4:37

different departments to help them modernize

4:40

and streamline their technology. And it

4:42

was sort of a cute internet

4:44

thing. Like, oh, we're going to

4:46

make Obama Care easier to use.

4:48

The website is going to be great.

4:51

Like, that kind of thing. almost

4:53

like internal technical consultants like they

4:55

could come into any agencies be

4:57

sort of like hey what's your

5:00

process what's not working this sort

5:02

of outside inside voice with

5:04

expertise so doge is now the USDS and

5:06

what's very important to understand

5:09

is there are technically two

5:11

doges there's the permanent one

5:13

and then there's a temporary

5:15

organization within that which is another

5:18

doge, that's the one that supposedly

5:20

ends on July 4th, 2026. And

5:22

we should say all of this

5:24

is a little bit hazy because

5:27

it's not an official, it's not

5:29

an agency, so to speak, it's

5:31

not created by Congress, it's not

5:33

funded by anyone. Is it,

5:35

do you think of it

5:37

as a mass consultancy or

5:40

what is the legal apparatus

5:42

that allows the Department of

5:44

government efficiency to exist? So

5:46

USDS was to my understanding

5:48

nested in the executive branch.

5:50

Meaning so it was a

5:52

White House deal. Initiative. Yes.

5:54

So it doesn't need to

5:56

be approved by Congress to

5:58

make this agency. But when

6:00

you have the temporary organization,

6:02

what is particularly special about

6:05

a temporary organization is it

6:07

allows the government to bring

6:09

in what are known as

6:11

special government employees. And those

6:13

can be volunteers or temporary

6:16

employees who serve generally from

6:18

60 to 130 days, depending

6:20

on what their capacity is.

6:22

And that means that they

6:24

don't have to get paid

6:26

necessarily and they don't have

6:29

the same level of transparency

6:31

required of them that other government

6:33

employees have. And that means what

6:35

we're suspecting is happening here is

6:37

that these people that we're seeing

6:39

come into Doge are underneath that

6:42

temporary organization and our special government

6:44

employees, which means they do not

6:46

have to go through the same

6:48

processes that normal government employees have

6:50

to go through and that gives

6:53

them. a level of opacity that

6:55

would not be possible in other

6:57

situations. So I'm going to translate

6:59

that. What that means is they're

7:02

not vetted the same way. They

7:04

don't go through the background checks

7:06

the same way. And once they've

7:08

done that, they're not subject to

7:10

the same oversight, they're not subject

7:13

to the same kind of like,

7:15

you know, public interrogation as regular

7:17

government workers. Right. Oftentimes, the

7:19

big thing is that a lot of

7:21

times when you're a government worker, you

7:24

have to give up your other job.

7:26

But a special government employee, if you're

7:28

coming in as a volunteer, you don't

7:30

need to give up your job. Elon

7:32

Musk can go on a little hiatus

7:35

from Space X or X and come

7:37

in and work with the government. 130

7:39

days a year, as opposed to someone

7:41

who's a full-time government worker who has

7:43

to give up their previous job. So

7:46

I think that's also an important thing

7:48

to note is when we're seeing people

7:50

who are executives at his companies coming

7:52

in while they still have on their

7:54

LinkedIns, those companies listed as their employer,

7:57

the reality is, and we don't know

7:59

this because or hasn't been a

8:01

lot of transparency, but they may

8:03

be there actually in a voluntary

8:05

capacity. Through the reporting from

8:08

you and others is the description

8:10

of the day-to-day of what this looks

8:12

like that's coming out and read

8:14

it and out of slack channels

8:17

from the government as people start

8:19

to reveal information. And it sounds

8:21

something like, I've been sent an

8:23

email that tells me... A, B, and C,

8:26

or I have to meet with someone

8:28

that says X, Y, and Z.

8:30

And when I sit down with

8:32

them, they're cagey about who they

8:34

are, they don't use a government

8:36

email, and I'm nervous. Is

8:38

that about right? That description?

8:41

I mean, that's what your

8:43

reporting and others, the scenarios

8:45

keep sounding like. So in

8:47

the piece that I reported with

8:50

my colleague McKenna Kelly, what we

8:52

found was that employees at the

8:54

GSA's technology transformation services were starting

8:56

to get called into meetings to

8:58

do what's called code reviews. So

9:00

they have to show their work

9:02

product and show you know how

9:04

they've coded what they've built they

9:07

had to sort of respond to

9:09

this questionnaire about how product what

9:11

you know what they've been working

9:13

on how productive they've been using

9:15

the Silicon Valley language right the

9:17

the Musk era language of tell me

9:19

your wins. What were the things you

9:22

did well? What were the things that

9:24

got in your way? Again, things that

9:26

make sense if you're thinking about how

9:29

to reimagine a place? Yes,

9:31

and also almost exactly the same

9:33

stuff that happened when he took

9:36

over Twitter in 2022. And... These

9:38

employees were called into meetings with

9:40

people whose names they did not

9:43

recognize. Sometimes those people were not

9:45

using a government email address to

9:47

be on the call. And what

9:50

we found is that in some

9:52

cases these people were quite young

9:54

engineers that seemed to have been

9:57

brought in by Musk and his

9:59

allies as part of their doge effort.

10:01

And we're saying young, they've like graduated from

10:03

college. This is not a bias against

10:05

youth. Well, one of

10:07

them is as young as 19 years old.

10:09

Whoa, okay Rewind, tell me more. One

10:12

of them who was sitting

10:14

in on GSA calls and whose

10:16

name we also were able

10:18

to identify at the OPM. So

10:21

that means that he was

10:23

working across two different government administration

10:25

agencies. He graduated from high

10:27

school in 2024. There are other

10:29

people who appear to be around

10:31

21, 22, unclear if they

10:33

recently graduated from college. One

10:35

was a senior at Harvard.

10:37

Another appears to either be

10:39

a senior or a dropout/withdrawn

10:41

student from Berkeley. And then

10:43

there are other young men

10:46

who seem to have graduated

10:48

within the past three, two,

10:50

three years. What do these

10:52

guys have in common? They

10:54

are all young. They're all

10:56

seemingly quite bright. And

10:58

they all are tied to

11:00

Musk's companies or the one

11:03

of his allies, like Peter

11:05

Thiel, who has been a

11:07

longtime Trump supporter, who is

11:09

very close with Musk. They

11:11

both worked at PayPal together.

11:13

They sort of move in

11:15

the same circles. And Peter

11:17

Thiel's company, Palantir, is a

11:19

big data company that has

11:21

billions of dollars of contracts with the US military. And

11:24

I think one thing that's

11:26

important to note is that

11:28

hiring young technical talent is quite

11:30

common in Silicon Valley. And that's a

11:32

place of move fast and break

11:34

things. And the government is not a

11:36

move fast and break things kind

11:38

of place because there's a lot more

11:41

collateral for getting something wrong for

11:43

300 million Americans than there is startup.

11:45

But at the same time, it's

11:47

a government that has struggled to deal

11:49

with its legacy IT systems. Like

11:51

that's one question I have, how much

11:53

damage can they do in a

11:55

system that is like so chopped up

11:57

and barely talks to itself? Yes,

12:00

some of these systems are arcane. Maybe

12:02

they do need to be overhauled,

12:04

but we have also heard that

12:06

one of the things that's happening

12:08

here is that, and again, my

12:10

colleague McKenna reported on this that

12:12

like, you know, we don't know

12:14

if they're taking data and. using

12:17

it to train AI systems or

12:19

using AI to analyze it. And

12:21

like, that's a whole other issue

12:23

around privacy and government data that

12:26

needs to be examined more thoroughly

12:28

because it's not just, are they

12:30

going into these systems and messing

12:32

around on them or maybe it

12:35

might be hard, it's what are

12:37

they doing with the access to

12:39

the data that they have? And

12:41

we say data, there's personnel data,

12:44

meaning the social security numbers,

12:46

the medication, Medicare records,

12:48

like there's all kinds

12:50

of records of both

12:52

workers and Americans that they

12:54

would have access to, and through

12:56

the federal payment service, which is

12:59

also sort of in the process

13:01

of having been... captured, so to

13:03

speak, they can figure out who gets paid

13:05

what anywhere in the government

13:07

for any reason. Am I getting that

13:10

right? Yeah, and that's not

13:12

just federal workers. That's, for

13:14

instance, non-profit organizations that might

13:17

have a government grant, that's

13:19

hospitals that get Medicaid money,

13:21

that's any science funding that

13:24

goes towards a university, possibly

13:26

also down to individuals like

13:28

getting their tax returns on

13:30

time, or at all. There's

13:32

so many things that that

13:34

federal payment system interacts

13:36

with. And again, there's the

13:38

danger of sort of going into

13:41

a system that you may be

13:43

unfamiliar with and messing around and

13:45

getting it wrong. But then there's

13:47

also, you know, what Musk himself

13:50

has talked about, which is like

13:52

cutting off funding to organizations

13:54

that they believe are not

13:57

aligned with America first values.

13:59

And that is particularly dangerous because again,

14:01

the whole point of these organizations

14:03

is that they are meant to

14:06

be a political. It means that

14:08

no matter who's in power, you

14:10

know that you're going to get

14:12

your Social Security check on time.

14:14

It means that no matter who's

14:17

in power, you know that your

14:19

hospital is going to get paid

14:21

if you have Medicaid patients. That

14:23

allows the system to keep moving

14:26

with trust. That gives a sense

14:28

of stability. And so suddenly the

14:30

idea that there might be politics

14:32

injected into this very important choke

14:34

point that's more than just hey

14:37

we want to see the code

14:39

and we want to just get

14:41

a sense of like where there's

14:43

waste and where they're spending but

14:46

actually like you could get turned

14:48

off at any moment. Right never

14:50

mind I guess what they could

14:52

build on their own in their

14:54

own companies with the information that

14:57

they've learned. Well and that's I

14:59

think a really important thing that

15:01

a lot of experts have sort

15:03

of talked to us about which

15:06

The information that these people are

15:08

gleaning is actually probably extraordinarily valuable.

15:10

Musk is a government contractor. SpaceX

15:12

is a government contractor. There's stuff

15:14

in there where businesses have to

15:17

submit tons and tons of information

15:19

to get government contracts for transparency

15:21

and for vetting and all this

15:23

stuff. And now people who work

15:26

at private companies that might want

15:28

or currently have government contracts have

15:30

access to data that their competitors

15:32

just... don't. And so even if

15:34

everything's perfect, even if they are

15:37

great at the code, they do

15:39

not politicize any of these agencies,

15:41

they really just come in and

15:43

clean stuff up like best case

15:45

scenario, you're still seeing these people

15:48

coming in and ultimately probably returning

15:50

to the private sector pretty quickly

15:52

if their special government employees with

15:54

information that their competitors don't have.

15:57

And that in itself is probable.

15:59

people hear about Starlink which can

16:01

help lunch. satellites, etc. But there's

16:03

also national security contracts that we

16:05

don't know exactly what they are

16:08

that must companies have as well.

16:10

So there's like this area of

16:12

national intelligence and security. It's not

16:14

just could he get to fire

16:17

more rockets for the U.S. Right. And

16:19

I think you know it's really important. I

16:21

think part of the reason this

16:23

conversation feels so vague and amorphous

16:25

is because They're not really telling

16:28

us what they're doing except broadly

16:30

saying we're making things more efficient.

16:32

I come from the world of international

16:34

development and the first question when

16:37

someone says we want to make

16:39

something efficient is go efficient for who.

16:41

And that hasn't been necessarily made clear. But

16:43

one thing they're able to do and I

16:45

think Musk is able to do is they're

16:48

able to look at their voters and say,

16:50

we said we were going to go in. and break

16:52

things. We said that the

16:54

deep state, so to speak,

16:56

all those people, those government

16:58

workers, and all those people

17:00

at NGOs and non-profits,

17:02

and that whole world

17:04

of left liberal ideology

17:07

and the money that is

17:09

made from it, their industry,

17:11

they're gonna squawk, they're gonna

17:14

be loud. So. What is it that

17:16

you try and do in your reporting

17:18

to think about that lens, right? That

17:21

like everybody in your story who's opposed

17:23

to this is just opposed to Trump

17:25

and Musk? I think that there are

17:27

a lot of people on both

17:29

sides of the political spectrum that

17:31

are extraordinarily frustrated with how the

17:33

government has frankly not responded to

17:35

their needs. And I think in

17:38

many cases that frustration is legitimate.

17:40

But I don't think anybody knows

17:42

how to navigate a hospital or

17:44

health insurance until they have a

17:46

loved one that's in a hospital.

17:48

And then they get a crash

17:50

course really quick. But that's not

17:52

something that necessarily the average American

17:54

walks around thinking about or knowing

17:56

every day. And so I think the biggest

17:58

thing that I think is important. with our

18:00

reporting is to really convey the purpose

18:02

of these systems and the things that

18:04

they do that people don't necessarily

18:07

think about because it actually might be

18:09

working well for them and so it

18:11

feels invisible. You know, the only things

18:14

that feel really visible are the things

18:16

that don't feel like they're working. And

18:18

so I think one of the things

18:20

to point out is like, you can

18:22

have whatever opinion you want about. how

18:24

we spend our defense spending or how

18:26

much money we should give to this

18:29

thing or that thing or whatever pain

18:31

point is. But I think, you know,

18:33

when we're talking about something like GSA

18:35

or Treasury, that's actually a system

18:37

that works pretty well. And

18:39

therefore, when we're talking about it,

18:42

it's important for people to understand,

18:44

you know, that A. this is a

18:46

possible threat to something that actually might

18:48

be working really well for you and

18:50

B things that can look really wasteful

18:52

to your average American might actually be

18:54

really good and I think foreign aid

18:56

spending is a really important part of

18:58

this. Most Americans think that foreign aid

19:00

spending is like 25% of our budget.

19:02

In reality, it's less than 1%.

19:04

It's like going to the airport

19:06

and having your suitcase be overweight

19:08

and taking out your underwear. It

19:10

is not going to make a

19:12

difference. And so I think the

19:14

fact is, is that like because

19:16

people feel their own pain points

19:18

about like I wish my government

19:21

worked better for me in XYZ

19:23

ways and then they see really

19:25

big numbers like you know two

19:27

million dollars going to this thing

19:29

in Uganda that feels like a

19:31

lot to an average American and

19:33

I think the biggest thing is

19:35

really contextualizing a some things do work

19:37

well and need to work in maybe

19:40

this slower or less politicized way in

19:42

order to be okay in order to

19:44

be safe and be some of these

19:47

things that feel like really big problems

19:49

are actually in the context of things

19:51

kind of distractions from

19:54

other things that could be a

19:56

really big problem like if some

19:58

of these systems get privatized, you're

20:00

going to be paying for that. One

20:03

of the things is like being able

20:05

to file your taxes online for free.

20:07

If that gets privatized, you're going to

20:09

have to pay for that. And I

20:11

think that's something that regular Americans feel

20:13

and will feel in their day-to-day lives,

20:15

but may not know to think about

20:18

unless we sort of function in

20:20

this explanatory way for these systems

20:22

as well as talking about the

20:24

changes that are happening. I noticed

20:26

in the course of this interview

20:28

you did not say the names

20:31

of the young men, the young

20:33

engineers, even though they're in the

20:35

wired story. Can you talk about

20:37

why not and what the blowback

20:40

has been to this reporting? I

20:42

think for a lot of people

20:44

who are really convinced

20:46

that the Doge sort of

20:48

organization is doing exactly what

20:50

they need to do. It

20:53

has felt very much like

20:55

doxing. to them. And to be

20:57

clear, like, there have been

20:59

people online posting their phone

21:02

numbers, emails, addresses, etc. And

21:04

I don't necessarily know that

21:06

that is the right thing

21:08

to do. At the same

21:10

time, I think that this

21:13

entity, clearly, which is

21:15

Doge and the people associated

21:17

with it, are not operating

21:20

with full transparency. And I

21:22

think the American people,

21:24

deserve to understand who is

21:27

in control or who has

21:29

access to some really important

21:31

and sensitive systems and information

21:33

because it can affect their

21:35

lives and no matter what

21:38

side of the political spectrum

21:40

you're on that information is

21:42

important and I think if we're trying

21:44

to understand the changes that are

21:46

being made We need to understand who's

21:48

making them. We need to understand if

21:51

they're qualified. You know, you can be

21:53

a brilliant engineer. You can be a

21:55

brilliant technical person. But that doesn't mean

21:58

that you have an understanding. of government

22:00

administration. That doesn't mean

22:02

you understand the totality

22:05

of the US digital security

22:07

and privacy laws that would dictate how

22:09

you need to work. When we're talking

22:11

about these young men, I think one

22:13

of the most important things is

22:16

that the greatest concern is

22:18

not necessarily that maybe they're

22:20

not great technical people. It's

22:22

that they don't have the

22:24

experience necessary in

22:27

government. to You've

22:33

also been calling out for more. the

22:39

possible

22:47

consequences

22:56

are being characterized as wasteful, particularly

22:58

when they have decades of expertise,

23:00

when they know how things work.

23:02

Federal workers, there are certain things

23:05

they can't participate in because it's

23:07

a conflict of interest. They don't

23:09

have 401ks because they rely on

23:11

pensions. And I think there's a lot of

23:13

things that people feel like the public

23:15

doesn't understand about their work and they

23:18

feel really sad and frustrated that the

23:20

US as a country, which they feel

23:22

they have worked. to protect, preserve,

23:24

and support for their whole careers

23:26

doesn't value them. And I think

23:28

there's a grave concern across everybody

23:30

that has reached out about the

23:32

lack of transparency being offered not

23:34

only to the public, but to

23:36

the workers themselves. So I think

23:38

now at this point, people are

23:40

extraordinarily concerned with the fact that

23:43

we don't know who's in these

23:45

systems, we don't know what they're,

23:47

who they will end up working

23:49

for, have worked for. We don't

23:51

know any of these things and

23:53

federal workers who have in many cases

23:55

given their lives to this work

23:57

and really do understand the ramification.

23:59

of what could go wrong are

24:02

really scared that these people being

24:04

brought in at best don't know

24:06

and at worst don't care. Victoria

24:09

Elliot is a reporter

24:11

for Wired magazine. Her beat

24:13

is platforms and power. So what

24:15

does it feel like to be

24:17

in the middle of this

24:20

musk mailstrom? Roman Chowdry

24:22

knows because she's a

24:24

former Twitter executive and

24:26

she's got some advice.

24:28

You'll hear from her

24:30

after this break. I'm Dr.

24:32

Sanjay Gupta, host of the

24:35

Chasing Life podcast. I

24:37

remember one of my

24:39

colleagues saying, after you croak,

24:41

nobody will ever talk about

24:44

trauma anymore. Wow. Dr. Bessel

24:46

Vanderkalk. He is a bounding

24:48

father of trauma studies. We're

24:51

going to talk about what

24:53

treatments are available, from dance

24:55

classes to somatic therapy to

24:57

cutting-edge psychedelic research. And we're

25:00

going to get really to

25:02

the heart of this word,

25:04

trauma. Listen to Chasing Life,

25:06

streaming now, wherever you get

25:09

your podcasts. Okay, we're back. Now,

25:11

of course, this is a show that

25:13

talks to people at the center of

25:15

the story, federal workers. Well, they're afraid

25:18

to talk. After Victoria's reporting came

25:20

out and wired with the names

25:22

of the six young engineers working

25:24

for Musk, Ed Martin, the acting

25:27

U.S. attorney for the District of

25:29

Columbia, assured the billionaire on X

25:31

that he would pursue all legal

25:34

action against anyone who impeded the

25:36

work of Doge. So we're talking

25:38

with someone who has two key

25:40

bits of experience, a former federal

25:42

contractor who is also a former

25:44

Twitter employee. And frankly, she's seen

25:46

this movie before. Ruman Chaudhary

25:49

was director for machine learning

25:51

ethics transparency and accountability at

25:53

Twitter. Then Elon Musk took

25:56

over in 2022 and she

25:58

was laid off. This week... She's

26:00

been posting advice to civil

26:02

servants on the social media

26:04

site Blue Sky. Some ideas are

26:06

practical. Move your group chats

26:09

to encrypted messaging apps on

26:11

your phone. Set them to auto-delete.

26:13

Others are eerie, but straightforward.

26:16

Don't expect managers to

26:18

have your back. Overall, she describes

26:20

an atmosphere of chaos. For me,

26:22

it just makes me angry. It's

26:24

so purposeful. it is intended to confuse

26:27

you, it is intended to scare you,

26:29

and that just makes me angry. I

26:31

think with some people it makes them

26:33

fearful and makes them shut down. I

26:35

think in some cases it can bring

26:37

out the worst in people and I,

26:39

you know, unfortunately have seen, I saw all of

26:41

it. What do you mean by that? Well, some people

26:43

go into self-protection mode, right? In some

26:46

cases, there were lists being made of

26:48

employees to keep and employees to fire,

26:50

and some people spent their time finagling

26:53

to be in those rooms so they

26:55

could protect themselves and throw

26:57

their teammates under the bus and

26:59

people that they had worked with.

27:01

This does lead us to number

27:03

three, expect performances of loyalty. It says

27:05

it won't help you keep your job. Can

27:08

you talk about... how you came to this

27:10

piece of advice? Was there a sense that

27:12

people were asked to jump hoops and that

27:14

it was like not actually for

27:16

the purpose intended? They went

27:19

to one of my youngest and most

27:21

junior engineers and asked this

27:23

person if they could kick somebody off the

27:25

team who they would kick off and do

27:28

you think that there are people on their

27:30

on your team who don't pull their weight

27:32

or do their job? and that you know

27:34

back to just being angry how how dare

27:36

you how dare you pick the youngest most

27:39

inexperienced person and make them feel

27:41

that they have the responsibility of picking

27:43

someone to be put on the firing

27:45

line you know at least pick on

27:47

someone your own size but they won't

27:50

so these are the performances of

27:52

loyalty right you want to go

27:54

after the people who are younger

27:56

and more inexperienced make them feel

27:58

like they're special and important important,

28:00

pull them in a room, bring them

28:02

to your side, and when you are

28:04

done with them, you discard them. This

28:06

is kind of what we're already seeing

28:08

happen, right, at these government agencies, and,

28:10

you know, they, Elon Musk is already

28:13

talking about how his team works 120

28:15

hours a week. You know, he is pulling

28:17

and duping people who want to feel

28:19

that attention from somebody who maybe they

28:21

admire or think is a great man,

28:23

and he is just going to burn

28:25

them out and discard them and find

28:27

new ones. It was a very common

28:29

refrain at Twitter after he left.

28:32

I think some people were genuinely

28:34

excited about it. A lot of

28:36

those people got burnt out within

28:38

the first five to six months

28:40

because it's a lot of impossible asks.

28:42

He prides himself on making people

28:44

work nights. And I think especially

28:47

when people are young. that sense

28:49

of like hustle and you got to

28:51

be in the game. And that's part

28:54

of his law, right? Like he sleeps

28:56

in offices when he's committed to a

28:58

task. He's the guy who's there and

29:00

he's not going to ask you to

29:03

do anything he wouldn't do himself. Right.

29:05

And I think when you are a

29:07

more mature leader, you realize that if

29:10

your team is working overnight, it's

29:12

because you did a bad job

29:14

of allocating work, not because your

29:16

work is just so that important.

29:18

Talk more about that because there's

29:20

a lot of teams in government.

29:23

There's a lot of emails going

29:25

out under the names of longtime

29:28

civil servants. What do you see in

29:30

this moment? Why you would offer that

29:32

advice? Yeah, there are sort of two

29:34

kinds of leaders that came out

29:36

during the ordeal at Twitter. There

29:38

are some who thought of their team first

29:41

and who really wanted to

29:43

help navigate whatever direction their

29:45

team wanted to go in. help

29:47

navigate each individual to a

29:49

safe landing. And then there are

29:52

others who decided that you know their

29:54

best bet was to cozy up to

29:56

the new leadership coming in, try to

29:58

protect themselves and you know, it's sort

30:01

of every person for themselves. I

30:03

would say that one of the

30:05

biggest disappointments during Twitter was when

30:07

we would have all hands meetings

30:09

and we were not allowed to

30:11

discuss what was happening with Elon

30:13

Musk. We were not allowed to

30:15

talk about the high levels of

30:17

attrition that were happening even before

30:19

he took over. You know, we

30:21

actually still don't know how many

30:23

people left Twitter before he even

30:25

came in. Some of the estimates

30:27

are about 30 percent. But they

30:29

stopped. And in the meantime, the

30:31

federal government, we're also seeing an

30:33

exodus. Correct. And are seeing people

30:35

who are leaving and many at

30:37

that mid senior level. Absolutely. And

30:39

some of them left because of

30:41

Trump. And I think some of

30:43

them are now leaving because of

30:45

this chaos that's being shown. And

30:47

I think it's tests like these

30:49

that really show you who good

30:51

leaders are and what people are

30:53

capable of. I want to stay

30:55

with this point because you actually

30:57

have a sub point on number

30:59

four. If you're a leader who

31:01

gives an S, help with exit

31:03

strategy. This is a way different

31:05

proposition for engineers at a place

31:07

like Twitter versus people who work

31:09

in the federal government. It's not

31:11

so easy to just walk off

31:13

the job if you've been working

31:15

for the government. So talk about

31:17

this advice. One of the reasons

31:19

I put this is, you know,

31:21

other leaders who are at Twitter,

31:23

we were, we, and we didn't

31:25

even know each other actually very

31:27

well before we were sort of

31:29

colluding on this in the signal

31:31

channel. We were arranging things like

31:33

meet and greets with different teams

31:35

and different companies. Ironically, some of

31:37

the people who I had meet

31:39

with my team were from government

31:41

agencies. You know, off of our

31:43

devices, we arranged resume reviews and

31:45

programming, we do things like, you

31:47

know, coding tests so people would

31:49

help each other study. And as

31:51

a leader, I don't just, you

31:53

know, you don't just see a

31:55

responsibility as your team functioning within

31:58

the unit. That is the organization.

32:00

you are responsible for everyone who

32:02

works for you for their

32:04

careers. What's harder for federal

32:06

employees, a lot of people enter federal

32:08

government wanting this job as

32:10

a career. And some of these people that

32:12

we are talking about have been in these

32:14

jobs for 20, 30 years. It is

32:17

very hard for anybody to leave a

32:19

job after 30 years and then go

32:21

to the industry. They have not interviewed

32:23

in decades. Their resume, 30 years old.

32:25

They don't necessarily know. newer practices of

32:27

going out onto the market. And by

32:30

the way, the market is not that

32:32

good right now. So how can you, while you are

32:34

dealing with all of the chaos, all of

32:36

the stress, the day to day, not knowing

32:38

if you're gonna have your job tomorrow, somehow

32:40

be able to hop on an interview

32:42

and be common collected in confidence and

32:44

be able to sell yourself to be

32:46

hired in a market that's not

32:49

particularly friendly. What are some of

32:51

the other levers or tools or

32:53

approaches that muskled management uses to

32:55

like bend an acquisition to their will?

32:57

I think the big thing is just

32:59

fear. You know, it's kind of amazing

33:01

how much people capitulate to fear.

33:04

You know, people get accustomed to

33:06

status quo, even a poor status quo.

33:08

And I think a lot of people

33:10

just get used to it. You know, I

33:12

have friends who have worked at

33:14

his companies and especially when they

33:16

were younger and, you know, and

33:19

again, when you're young, it seems

33:21

very exciting. You know, the sense

33:23

of beating somebody and being the

33:25

best. being admired by a quote-unquote

33:27

god-like figure. I mean, he sets

33:29

himself as a god-like figure. And

33:31

there is a cult, a worship

33:33

around him. I think when you are

33:35

in an environment like that, it's easy

33:37

to not see how false it is and

33:40

how propped up it is, and you

33:42

forget that you can leave, and that

33:44

there are other jobs you can have,

33:46

and that, you know, most people probably

33:48

will be okay. I think some people are

33:51

also just locked in, right? They may only

33:53

only have one or two years left on

33:55

the job before they get their pension. They're

33:57

worried about health care. They're also just some

33:59

very... practical and pragmatic things

34:02

that can be dangled in front

34:04

of you or you can be

34:06

threatened with that, you know, matter in

34:08

people's lives. One thing I want

34:10

to raise is that one of

34:12

the president's preoccupation, it's always

34:15

been the deep state that the

34:17

civilian bureaucracy prevents

34:19

him from executing the

34:21

policies that he wants and that

34:23

in his first term. they pushed back

34:26

so hard that it sort of made

34:28

it difficult to accomplish what he wanted

34:30

to. In some ways, when people

34:32

talk about what's happening, it kind of

34:34

sounds like just the other side of

34:37

the coin of what he's saying, that

34:39

there is in fact a bunch of

34:41

people who don't want to do what

34:43

he wants to do, and like maybe

34:45

they should leave. Like maybe hearing someone

34:47

who's been there for 20 and 30

34:49

years is not ideal, right, if you

34:52

want to make government more efficient.

34:55

I think a lot of it is

34:57

how tech has warped our sense of

34:59

value to value youth and speed,

35:01

you know, move fast and break

35:03

things over things like experience.

35:06

You know, this comes up in the

35:08

field that I'm in quite a bit

35:11

AI when people will say, oh, regulation

35:13

will stifle innovation. I'm like, well, Oh,

35:15

so do you just not want to

35:17

have laws? Because remember when we didn't

35:19

have laws on food and anybody could

35:21

just sell anything and people would just

35:24

constantly die of diseases. Remember when we

35:26

didn't have laws that govern medicine and

35:28

you did not know what you were

35:30

putting in your mouth and whether or

35:32

not it would cure your disease or

35:35

kill you, right? Yeah, you know, doing

35:37

things mindfully takes... time. It's sort of

35:39

like a macro problem we have is

35:41

that everything just seems to be moving

35:43

faster and faster and I think we

35:45

have to take conscious effort to say we

35:47

don't actually have to move that fast. Read

35:50

piece of advice number five. Number five,

35:52

your culture will die. The hardest lesson I

35:54

learned is how fragile culture is. It's more

35:56

painful than you think. I wrote a whole

35:58

a lot that about it. This is a

36:01

pretty brutal assessment and I can

36:03

understand why you enjoyed the culture you

36:05

were in, etc. but like what's the

36:07

point of offering this up right now?

36:09

What do you think is important that

36:11

will help people get through it? Maybe this

36:14

will sound a little bit nihilistic, but

36:16

it did help me, right? All

36:18

of these things, culture, institutions, these

36:20

are all things we set up

36:22

as human beings, their concepts. they're

36:25

actually not real physical things.

36:27

And culture requires preservation.

36:29

Institutions require preservation. We

36:31

can't take them for granted.

36:33

If you like the culture you are

36:36

in, no matter what culture it is,

36:38

you actually have to contribute to it

36:40

and to see how quickly it was

36:42

taken away because of one man's looming

36:44

threat was very sobering. And

36:46

the fragility of it kind of

36:48

still stays with me. One of

36:50

the things it occurs to me that

36:53

the Twitter folks have in common with

36:55

the federal workers is like the

36:57

public has a deep lack of

36:59

sympathy. Like, I remember doing stories

37:01

and people would be like, well,

37:03

I don't care about Twitter, you

37:05

know what I mean? Or just

37:07

like, sure, sounds bad. And over

37:09

the years, there's just been such

37:11

a dialogue around the federal workforce,

37:13

there's also a lack of sympathy

37:15

there. Like, who cares about them?

37:17

Or people voted for Trump explicitly

37:19

because they were like, yeah, get

37:21

rid of those folks. Can you talk

37:23

about how that plays into all of this?

37:26

That like people are going through a thing,

37:28

but then like to the outside world you

37:30

like either deserve it or it doesn't

37:32

matter that you're going through it? I think

37:34

a lot of this has become theater and

37:36

that is what people like Trump and

37:38

Musk are very good at. They are good

37:40

at theatrics. They are good at making caricatures

37:43

of others so that you don't have to

37:45

care about them. The other thing is a lot

37:47

of this is taking place on social

37:49

media and social media just doesn't seem

37:52

real. I think a lot of this feels very removed

37:54

and the reason why I'm concerned about that

37:56

in particular with federal employees fine you don't

37:58

care about Twitter you don't care about us,

38:00

that's fine. We probably may or may

38:02

not have a significant impact on

38:04

people's lives, but the federal government, I

38:07

think people are going to understand once

38:09

they realize that their kid is no

38:11

longer getting subsidized lunch and that they

38:14

can't take their dad to the VA

38:16

hospital because it's closed, or that their

38:18

roads aren't being fixed, or that airplanes

38:20

might be crashing. It is absolutely

38:22

wild to me how some of

38:24

the richest men in the world

38:26

have managed to paint public employees

38:29

as you know, greedy and grasping

38:31

when, you know, again, these people

38:33

work very hard at their jobs

38:35

to keep institutions going. They don't

38:37

get public credit for it. They're

38:39

certainly not on social media talking

38:41

about it constantly. And I hope that

38:43

people understand that the kinds of people

38:45

we are talking about here are the

38:47

reason your lights are on, that your

38:49

water's clean, that your child is being

38:51

fed, clean food and good food, and

38:53

taking that away is going to be

38:56

very, very dangerous for all Americans. Dr.

39:02

Ruman Chaudhary was director for

39:04

machine learning ethics, transparency, and

39:07

accountability at Twitter. Dr. Chaudhary

39:09

currently runs parody consulting, which

39:11

offers ethical AI consulting and

39:14

auditing. The assignment is a

39:16

production of CNN audio, and

39:19

this episode was produced by

39:21

Sophia Sanchez, Jesse Remedios, and

39:23

we got help from Dan

39:26

Bloom. Our senior producer is

39:28

Matt Martinez. The executive producer

39:31

of CNN audio is Steve

39:33

Lictai, and the technical director is

39:35

Dan Dizula. We had support from

39:37

Haley Thomas, Alex Manissary, Robert

39:40

Mathers, John DeAnora, Lenny Steinhardt,

39:42

James Andris, Nicole Pesseroo, and

39:44

Lisa Namarow. I'm Audie Cornish.

39:47

I want to thank you

39:49

for listening, and I'm hoping

39:52

that if you enjoyed this

39:54

show, please subscribe, please share.

39:56

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39:59

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