0:05

And now from the University of

0:07

Hago Institute of Politics and

0:09

CNN Audio, The Ax files,

0:12

with your host, David Axorod.

0:18

One of the quiet heroes of the two

0:20

thousand and twenty post election cycle

0:23

was a folksy, colorful Arizona

0:25

politician named Rusty Bowers, a

0:28

rock ribbed conservative Republican

0:30

hours resisted enormous pressure from

0:32

the president of the United States and his agents

0:35

to overturn the state's results and

0:37

send a pro Trump slave electors

0:39

to Washington. It cost him his political

0:41

career. I sat down with Bowers,

0:44

one of the most interesting and engaging people

0:46

I've met in politics. just days

0:48

before this week's election in which

0:50

the battle over election denial

0:52

continued to rage in Arizona. Here's

0:55

that conversation.

1:03

Speaker Bowers, it's it's great to see you

1:05

again. Thank you for being here.

1:07

We we got chance to

1:09

meet at the profiles encouraged dinner

1:12

a while back. But I wanna I don't

1:15

wanna start with why you happen to be at the

1:17

profiles encouraged dinner and what

1:19

turn in life took you there. I

1:21

I first of all wanna talk about your life

1:23

from the beginning. You your

1:25

family was part of the pioneer

1:28

families that that made their

1:30

way to Arizona, probably from

1:32

Utah. Uh-huh. Mormon families? Correct.

1:35

Yeah. Right. and

1:37

settled in Mesa? No.

1:39

They

1:39

settled in their white mountains and they almost

1:41

into New Mexico over St.

1:44

John's was the first place then down to

1:46

They settled a tiny little

1:48

hamlet called Nutrioso, and

1:50

a brother, two brothers, and one

1:52

was In nutrients, the other one is an

1:55

alpine. And my great grandfather

1:57

lost three of his kids that winter.

1:59

And we occasionally get to

2:02

sneak up and see their graves and remember

2:04

how tough life really was for a

2:06

lot of people. And

2:07

then they

2:08

moved down here then the

2:10

valley and got a half

2:12

section down near under

2:14

the hill, and that's where grandma

2:16

really, as a child, began

2:18

to furnish, etcetera, that It

2:20

was a different time for a lot of people. That's

2:23

for sure. Yeah. And Mesa

2:25

was a different place. Uh-huh. Yeah.

2:27

Well, at first, it was where they settled was

2:29

called Lehigh. and he's a that's the name

2:31

of the figure in the book of Mormon. But up

2:34

on the Mesa, up above them,

2:36

was where they ultimately found

2:38

that the long ago indigenous people

2:41

had dug canals and it diverted

2:44

water from the Salt River out onto

2:46

that Mesa to grow crops, so they followed

2:48

the same canal pathways and

2:50

were able to start irrigating, and that's where

2:52

Mesa really took off. far as taking

2:54

off, it really didn't start till nineteen forty

2:56

five, but and it was irritable land

2:59

and they did an awesome work.

3:01

I'm interested in your folks. your

3:03

dad was an athlete. My dad was the

3:05

Iron Man of California, all CIF.

3:07

He ran track and mostly

3:09

track and football in LA.

3:11

and he lived kind of

3:13

close. His neighbor who has talked

3:16

to said they lived through the block from Jackie

3:18

Robinson. Yes. dad and Jackie

3:20

Robinson would fight their way to school and

3:22

fight their way home. One being

3:24

became American, the other being Mormon. and

3:27

sent both on the outs with most other

3:29

people. And they finally figured out

3:31

they'd better fight their way, you know, or

3:33

or just outrun everybody. So they They

3:37

ran, but they they really knew each other

3:39

later. Pasadena junior college were

3:41

up. They both played football. Yeah. Yeah.

3:43

What did did your dad Jackie

3:45

Robbins stories with you? He did.

3:48

Usually, in connection with

3:50

a racial point. Mhmm.

3:53

In the day, you know, sixties? lot

3:56

of stuff going on nationally. And

3:59

he would say, you know, I don't want any part

4:01

of this stuff. And then he would say, I have

4:03

I have a good friend, Jackie Robinson. and

4:05

he had talked about football days. He was evidently

4:08

his traveling companion

4:10

when they would travel. Dad was his roommate

4:12

and they they'd done each other years.

4:15

and they just got up. It was a good friendship.

4:17

We have a in the year book,

4:19

Jackie wrote something to the effect

4:22

West to a swell to the

4:24

swellest guy on the squad, and

4:26

then it says, please tell your dad

4:29

that that little incident in Compton

4:32

There's a lot of lot of, you know,

4:34

a lot of noise about nothing. And

4:36

I'm going, what incident did

4:38

come? Did

4:40

he explain? No. He didn't.

4:43

And dad and

4:45

so dad wasn't these

4:47

guys were tough. I mean, this is a

4:49

tough man. And, you know, they

4:51

they carried themselves well, but they dad,

4:55

who's the DI and the Marine Corps, you

4:57

know, He's a coach then later in

4:59

life here in the Scottsdale school

5:01

system. And it was a lot of

5:03

fun. When I was ten years old

5:05

or eleven years old, and

5:07

growing up in New York City. I

5:09

decided

5:09

that I wanted a volunteer for

5:11

Nelson Rockefeller who was running

5:13

for governor of New York. I was of

5:15

freakishly interested in politics as a

5:17

little kid. And I went up there and they didn't know what

5:19

to do with an eleven year old. So

5:22

they said, well, we don't really have anything for you

5:24

to do, but would you like to meet Jackie Robinson?

5:27

Because he was a huge

5:29

supporter of Nelson Rockefeller's, and he

5:31

worked closely with him. And he he had an office

5:33

at the campaign headquarters. So

5:36

I went to serve, but I end up

5:38

having this incredible experience

5:41

of of meeting Jackie Robinson

5:43

who couldn't have been kinder to

5:45

a little eleven year old boy who wandered into

5:47

his office. So

5:49

Yeah. And you guys you all your you

5:51

and your I think you had a brother who played the

5:53

NFL or something you all of you became

5:55

athletes. Well, we all were apletically.

5:58

oriented because of our dad's influence.

6:00

My older brother, Dan,

6:02

came out of NYU, went to

6:04

camp, was drafted by the lions, never

6:06

went beyond. just the pregame

6:09

stuff where the the Younglings got

6:11

to play in the preseason stuff.

6:13

But he said the whole atmosphere was

6:15

pretty ribbled for LDS

6:18

kid coming to you. It got

6:20

a little tough, so he came home. And then

6:22

his son and he played here

6:24

for the cardinal for a little while. I

6:26

think up for the Buffalo Bills a bit.

6:28

You

6:28

know, nothing, Nick. You had your moment

6:30

in the sun. You you walked on and

6:32

onto the BYU basketball

6:35

team for a minute. Right? That's

6:36

exactly right. Until I

6:38

found out my girlfriend was dating some

6:40

guy that I'd known in high school, and I said, I ain't

6:42

good. That ain't gonna go. So I

6:44

came home. Now I'm grateful to

6:46

walk on two feet still and

6:49

and the

6:51

basketball occasionally. That's

6:53

about it. Well, certainly, if

6:55

you've played ball, then

6:57

you're used to people throwing elbows. So

6:59

that must have been good practice for Sure.

7:01

As you did later in life, and I

7:03

gave a few elbows too. I think I found

7:05

out more than any other kid in

7:07

state history. when I was

7:09

in high school. So I had my records,

7:11

but they weren't in the scoring category. Now

7:15

your mom was an artist.

7:17

very artistic and drew

7:19

and colored pencils, the kind of the

7:21

brick shampoos, she'd

7:23

draw them in church and then hand it to me and

7:25

say draw that. and she did it to keep me quiet.

7:28

That doesn't sound that church like drawing

7:30

the brick girls in church. Was that

7:32

was that allowed? And it wasn't

7:34

calvinistic. You know, there's a lot of

7:36

where we were in Chino. There's a little dray

7:39

kind of a stone church that's

7:41

now of what they've sold it through the years.

7:43

It's things kinda like a hardware

7:45

place, you know. I'm like, and I had when I

7:47

got bored, I dove out the window and slid down

7:49

the drain pipe and headed into the

7:52

Great.

7:52

No? Yeah. But you did

7:54

get imbued. Whether it was through the jeans

7:56

or the fact that she handed you the Breck Girls,

7:59

you got imbued

7:59

with that artistic passion

8:02

My mother now this is later.

8:04

She died eight years ago. So it's probably

8:06

fifteen years ago. I get a big

8:08

thick packet and I open it up and

8:10

it's all these drawings through

8:12

my youth, up through high school,

8:14

that she had checked, and then

8:17

she just sent them to me. isn't really a

8:19

treasure in a lot of Snoopy cartoons

8:21

and and things that appears on a highway

8:23

that I scenes that I drew and

8:25

copied and It just showed

8:27

that how a mother is

8:29

that sees something and supported

8:31

it in me. I never took an art class

8:33

until my senior year. you know, I was

8:35

in the basketball and I was in the

8:37

choir like she really wanted me to be.

8:39

She took me everywhere to sing, weddings

8:41

and in all receptions and

8:44

public, the bad stuff I sang

8:46

everywhere. That's probably how I got elected the

8:48

first time just people knew me. 0III

8:50

felt because you were singing, did you sing

8:52

at your event? I have sung

8:54

at some events. I have Doctor

8:57

Guter and sing I love your Arizona

8:59

and that Lee Greenwood thing, proud to be an

9:01

American. That's something else. Yeah. You

9:03

apparently had, like, a quartet

9:05

of senators who broke

9:07

out the guitars from time to time

9:09

in the capital. We were very

9:11

irreverent and nobody was immune.

9:14

You know, it's it's kinda like the capital

9:16

steps. We made fun of everybody who's

9:18

a lampoon of the session. Back

9:20

when having a sense of humor wasn't

9:23

illegal. as it is today, you know.

9:25

There's always somebody who's going to shred

9:27

you for, oh, look, blanked his

9:29

eyes when somebody was talking to him. You must not be

9:31

paying attention. You know, it's like that. I guess you

9:33

also sketched some of your colleagues

9:35

from time to time when you were sitting

9:37

in hearings in the legislature

9:39

just this week. Just this

9:41

week, days ago, my

9:43

secretary said, I have a confession to

9:45

make. My assistant, Shannon, she says,

9:47

I've checked all this stuff

9:49

that you threw away or on your cheat

9:51

sheets or whatever where you were doodling. And

9:53

there were all kinds of humorous

9:56

things of different people And some,

9:58

I got one of David Schweitert

9:59

that's a classic, him and an Apache

10:02

helicopter, you know, showing Schweitert

10:04

diplomacy he's obviously,

10:06

he's in Congress right now. So Yeah.

10:08

Yeah. I read that every sculpture

10:11

virtually every sculpture in the

10:13

in the legislature because you went on to become

10:15

a very accomplished sculpture, not just an

10:17

artist, that every sculpture in

10:19

the capital has

10:21

your your name on it, that you you

10:23

you you've the capitalist

10:25

festooned with the with

10:27

Rusty Bower Works. Yeah. I can't

10:29

I couldn't sell it anywhere else, so I just made

10:31

it here. But

10:34

now, seriously, is that true?

10:36

No. Many of those For

10:38

example, the polyrosymbolic bill heart piece that's

10:40

on the wall was an

10:43

initial, these big, you know, reliefs

10:45

was by the Arizona Mining

10:47

Association, and some one of my clients

10:49

talked to them and they had me do

10:51

that. And it was Polly Rosenbaum, who's

10:53

the longest serving member of the House of

10:55

Representatives, forty six

10:57

years, I think, who taught me in running

10:59

for office. She's a Democrat, a blue dog

11:01

Democrat, and as I

11:03

sculpted her, we talked, and it was

11:05

really enjoyable. And later, I did a full

11:07

bust of her and a bill.

11:09

One was while I was a member, and I think

11:11

killed him while I wasn't. And then, you know,

11:13

you get some and then other people saw

11:15

something when Jake Flake died.

11:17

I wasn't in the legislature at the

11:19

time and a group of lobbyists

11:22

asked me if I would do his bus.

11:24

So then the the did the

11:26

firefighter memorial across Jake Frank is

11:28

former former speaker. Right? He was --

11:30

Right. -- and and relative of Jeff

11:32

Flake. Right. He's not in the center.

11:34

Yeah. You think there'll be a best of view there

11:36

someday? Probably only if I did it and

11:38

sneak it in. I'll I'll say it

11:40

was Karl Haid and stick it up

11:42

out. You've spent

11:45

your mission, your Mormon mission in

11:47

Mexico, and you've you you

11:49

have a close relationship with

11:51

Mexico. You've spent a

11:53

lot of time there. You're fluent in

11:56

Spanish. I read that you

11:58

you hike down the copper canyon in the

12:00

Sierra Madre mountains

12:03

and spent time there with the

12:05

indigenous people in the

12:07

canyon there. Talk about your

12:09

relationship with Mexico. Well,

12:11

my brother had gone to on a

12:13

mission there. When I applied, for

12:16

review, there's a little box. Where would you like

12:18

to go if you had your choice? And you

12:20

don't. But I wrote same place my

12:22

brother went, and that's where they sent me. and it

12:24

was a smaller mission, but

12:26

I was blessed to really

12:28

learn Spanish well

12:30

and have a great love for

12:32

the culture. and the people

12:34

which you develop there in the

12:36

lives of people living, dying,

12:38

learning, growing, repenting, doing all the

12:40

things that people do. And afterwards,

12:43

loved that. I went back

12:45

painting with my family, a young family when

12:47

I came out of NYU and

12:49

then really started becoming

12:51

involved when I made that first

12:53

trip down to the copper canyon. And there's

12:55

a Frank Waters was her author,

12:58

a western genre back

13:00

in the forties, fifty, sixties,

13:01

became friend friends with

13:03

him,

13:04

talked to me about some places, talked

13:06

to Peter Schaeffer, the head of Uofe

13:08

at the time just called him cold turkey. He

13:10

had written a book about the tarahumada and

13:12

the canyons and then saw

13:15

a friend John Cheryl

13:17

Hauser who did the big sculptures

13:19

in El Paso, but he started

13:21

out right down there in the canyons. And I

13:23

went down to try to find him and didn't.

13:25

I had to come back to Tucson to find him, but

13:27

going down there that first time, it's a hundred

13:29

and seventy five miles of dirt road,

13:31

and the road had only been built

13:33

for ten years. and it

13:35

was one wild place.

13:37

But meeting Ramón Figueroa, and

13:39

you can look him up. He's on the

13:41

Internet.

13:41

He built mixed by a lens. He's

13:44

fantastic. but I introduced that guy to

13:46

a windmill. They were very

13:48

remote centric people. And

13:50

I've been there eighty

13:51

time since working

13:54

with the fundación da

13:56

armada, it's a

13:58

medical services we

13:59

would collect and supply medical

14:02

care over the counter stuff mostly, but

14:04

we'd take it down to clinics out in the

14:06

mountains and then paint them

14:08

as my themes. for

14:10

different sculptures and paintings

14:12

and sold them through the Main Trail

14:14

gallery at Scottsdale and

14:17

I love it. But the last time we

14:19

went, the drug influence was

14:21

so strong and the threat

14:23

of being kidnapped and things

14:25

was so evident that I haven't

14:27

been backed down into those places, but

14:29

I should. I mean, I should break out and

14:31

go. It was a life changing. think

14:33

for me. There was a sculpture Ernst

14:35

Barlock who pre

14:38

Nazi German Bauhaus

14:40

trained went to steps of

14:42

Russia and learned about real

14:44

life, you know, survival living

14:46

and changed his whole outlook on life,

14:48

and that was me. You know, he came back

14:50

and fell into disfavor with

14:52

Adolf Hitler and I came back and fell

14:54

into favor with Donald Trump.

14:57

So we have at least one similarity.

14:59

Well, let me let me ask you a question about that. because

15:01

you know what? I I knowing your

15:03

background and knowing how much time

15:05

you've spent there you

15:07

know, you descended into the

15:10

copper canyon. Donald Trump

15:12

came down this gold escalator

15:14

And when he came down that escalator, he said

15:16

really defamatory things

15:18

about people who are coming from

15:20

Mexico. And I was wondering how you

15:22

at that time how you process

15:24

that. Did it make you feel uncomfortable? I

15:26

thought it was gross. I

15:28

mean, I knew living with people

15:31

there. whose children died

15:33

of infantigo, and

15:35

whom I I'm not a doctor, but I

15:37

was the only person around.

15:40

would take antiseptic soaps

15:42

and clean wounds and their

15:44

thighs and and try to

15:46

help in any way I could. the local

15:48

physician who is hard pressed

15:50

and met some of the most

15:52

genuinely

15:52

christ Christlike people. could

15:54

given up their lives to go serve

15:57

these very very primitive

15:59

in some ways of culture,

16:02

but excellent. in character

16:05

and why they would leave. If their

16:07

crops fail, they

16:09

starved to death. And, you know,

16:11

forty, fifty years ago, and I

16:13

was first introduced, it was

16:15

shocking. How I could see that we lived

16:17

on Fantasy Island? You know, the Trump

16:19

Tower, really? That's certainly not the

16:21

world.

16:22

Politics is is hard. Politics

16:24

is challenging. You know, you

16:26

were a supporter of Trump. I

16:28

was. Even in twenty twenty,

16:30

but how you reconcile your

16:33

discomfort with something

16:35

like his attitude toward the

16:37

Mexican people and the

16:39

politics of Arizona and

16:41

your politics. I don't

16:43

try to blend

16:45

them There's

16:46

a saying somewhere if you see a good

16:48

man, you try to be like him. You see

16:50

a bad man, you look at yourself. And

16:52

there were things. I supported

16:55

Ted Cruz in the primaries.

16:57

I voted for Trump simply because

16:59

he might change the supreme court. and

17:01

he did. And the first part of his

17:04

administration, there was a lot of good

17:06

things working in the environment arena that I

17:08

did in the legislature streamlined

17:11

permitting and, I mean, it was a

17:13

sea change. But when COVID

17:15

hit, the one continuity, the

17:17

one continuum was a very

17:19

bad attitude with a tweet

17:21

and a cell phone that

17:23

the president demonstrated on

17:25

every contrary criticism

17:27

system he received. And I just thought, can you just put

17:29

that thing away? You know, ignore

17:31

it and get back to work. But there

17:33

was a whole lot of people that just

17:36

that just started a feeding frenzy, you know,

17:38

and a culture in the politics

17:42

complex. And so ultimately,

17:44

I knew that there was a lot of

17:46

people, typically young younger

17:49

women eighteen to forty, small

17:51

children professional educated, that didn't

17:53

vote for him the first time. And as we came around

17:56

the second time, wanting a

17:58

a return to the good part of his

17:59

administration, I was supported

18:02

and we tried to push the very excellent colleagues

18:04

that I had, women, professional,

18:07

educated, and we started to see that

18:09

needle change, but at that

18:11

first debate when he went against

18:13

Biden and just it was just childish

18:16

and juvenile and

18:18

profane. And I thought that's exactly

18:20

the guy. that those women will

18:22

not vote for. And unfortunately

18:24

for him, they had the ballots in their hands

18:26

in Arizona, and sixty

18:28

thousand of them left his

18:30

blank. and then all Republican down ticket. And eighteen

18:32

thousand voted for Biden and all Republican

18:34

down ticket. So they agreed with

18:36

me if you would just

18:39

Learn how to roll with a punch and

18:41

laugh at yourself. You'd be present,

18:43

but he he did. And that attitude

18:45

carried over after that enormously when he

18:47

started pushing the steel, him and Rudy

18:49

and others, to my knowledge

18:51

here. We're gonna take

18:53

a short break and we'll be right back

18:55

with more of the x files.

19:02

I'm CNN's Thomas

19:04

Link on the next episode

19:06

of the James Brown Mystery.

19:08

At one point, I just thought it was

19:10

better he shoot me. because I would be scarred for

19:12

the rest of my life like I am. Jackie is

19:14

talking about the night everything changed.

19:17

I am at the therapy,

19:19

and it's still it take

19:21

it out of my brain. The James Brown Mystery. You

19:24

can catch up with the first two episodes

19:26

now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

19:29

iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast

19:32

app.

19:34

And

19:37

now back to the show. I

19:40

read that

19:43

politics was very much discussed around

19:46

your house, but I'm interested in

19:48

the in in how you made the transition

19:51

from painting and sculpting legislators

19:53

to being one. you

19:56

know, I and I read two origin stories.

19:58

One was that that the

20:00

county okay the construction of

20:02

a a shooting

20:05

range next to your your home and that

20:07

you were really angry about the fact

20:09

that they overrun you

20:11

and some of your neighbors in

20:13

wanting to put it there. In other

20:15

words, that a friend of yours made you a bet that

20:17

you wouldn't run for the legislature. Both

20:20

of those are true. Yeah. They're not

20:22

mutually exclusive. So tell me about

20:24

that the decision to actually run for

20:26

office. First,

20:26

the gun range It wasn't that they

20:28

built it. It's that they didn't tell anybody, and

20:31

there was, you know, this mentality, if you

20:33

can't see the gun going off, you can't hear it.

20:35

So that showed me a

20:37

political thing that I thought was

20:39

improperly done and

20:41

contiguous with that, the representative

20:43

for our area, Stan Barnes, well

20:45

known figure here locally, was

20:47

running at left the house, was running for the senate,

20:49

and opening up a spot. And

20:51

my LD chair at

20:53

the time was trying to talk me into running for a precinct

20:55

committee, man, and and lined out all the

20:57

responsibility. I said, if I'm gonna do all that, I

20:59

might as well run for office. And she said, well,

21:01

Stan's moving. I dare you to take his

21:03

place. And I said, you dare

21:05

me? Yeah. I don't think we

21:07

can get the signatures. I said, when do I have

21:09

to have them? She says two weeks.

21:11

How many? Oh, four hundred plus. I said, you got it. I'm

21:13

gonna see if I can do that. Now that

21:15

we should point out for just so people aren't

21:17

confused. LD means legislative district.

21:21

It's not LDS. It's it's

21:23

LD. It's it's it's

21:25

a different thing. You went to the

21:27

legislature and you served in you

21:29

had two chapters in of your public

21:31

career. In the first chapter, you spent

21:33

half in the House, half in the Senate. One of

21:35

the things that came up in, you know, is

21:37

interested in the gun range

21:39

story is that you are Chairman

21:41

of the Environmental Committee in

21:43

the House and you have a very

21:46

strong view on these environmental

21:49

issues. As you said, you said you you liked

21:51

what Trump did, you liked

21:53

the deregulation, you don't want the

21:55

intrusion. You know, there

21:57

are a lot of people, environmental

21:59

advocates who say, you know, he's

22:01

a great guy you know,

22:03

he obviously has an appreciation for nature because he

22:06

paints it. He has an

22:08

appreciation for the environment. But

22:10

there are people who don't

22:13

want toxic materials to

22:15

near their home. There are people

22:17

who are concerned about,

22:20

you know, a range of environmental issues because

22:22

they're in their neighborhood

22:24

just like the shoot, the the gun

22:26

range was in yours.

22:29

and that you were

22:31

uniformly

22:31

on the other side of those issues?

22:34

No, I wasn't. The challenge is

22:36

is that Everybody wants you in a box. I call it

22:38

Ivanizing. I want to Ivan

22:40

you. I want to identify my

22:42

villain, vilify my villain. associate

22:44

my villain with other villains in

22:46

order to neutralize my

22:48

villain. And I'm big time

22:50

about being a good steward. I am

22:52

a good steward. but I realize that there

22:54

has to be a balance. I have to have money

22:57

in order to clean up a toxic waste

22:59

up. And I like a fairness

23:01

and equity in law, which led me to lead the

23:03

the largest environmental

23:05

effort in Arizona, the super fund

23:07

effort, to change our super

23:09

fund structure away from

23:12

the old lawyer grab

23:14

bag to a something more

23:16

oriented towards your personal

23:19

responsibility. What you personally did,

23:21

your company or you, you

23:23

are responsible for, not

23:25

the broader legal framework

23:27

that is used nationally. And

23:29

we were successful and it's been successful. But it

23:31

like everything else takes money. To make money,

23:33

you gotta get taxes. To get taxes. You gotta

23:35

have business. To get business. You gotta

23:38

have work. And in my

23:40

background of mining and

23:42

etcetera, there has to be a

23:44

balance in making sure you're not

23:46

ruined in the place for future

23:48

generations and cleaning up and making

23:50

safe where you have been, but

23:52

you

23:52

certainly need to have extraction

23:55

industries that are successful so

23:57

many want no extraction, save the

23:59

planet, and I could do like they do

24:01

and exaggerate the points, you

24:04

know, back to living in caves and

24:06

wrapping yourselves and yucky branches. But

24:08

that's that's not gonna happen.

24:10

But we do have to have that balance when

24:12

we had a an initiative to

24:14

stop the growth in Arizona. I was against it. And I said

24:16

right then, you don't need to put a circle around

24:18

growth in Arizona. You just need to wait till

24:20

it run out of water. Guess what?

24:23

We're here. Yeah. And so

24:25

it's causing us all to

24:27

reassess an environmental issue

24:30

on wears the balance between rights and responsibilities.

24:32

And that's that's big to

24:34

me. I've tried to make it work and

24:36

be protective, but give people a

24:39

chance to press their rights

24:41

also to pursue their happiness.

24:43

So there's a balance there. Why did you

24:45

decide to leave the legislature? You in

24:47

two thousand and one, you that you were there

24:49

for about what nine, ten years and

24:51

you decided to quit. There

24:53

was some personal things happening in my

24:55

family that were that opened up

24:57

one of my children to we

24:59

could see that if it went it could really

25:01

go awry, which has proven itself

25:03

even lately with her

25:05

demise. But Also, my wife, we

25:07

were make I can't remember at the time. Think

25:09

we're making eighteen thousand a year and I

25:11

had seven children.

25:14

Yeah. Yeah. I can do the math.

25:16

and she was rolling credit cards

25:18

to keep the principles down, but

25:20

I just said, wow, we were in the tight

25:22

spot and somebody just said, look, there's

25:25

opening with the Arizona Mining

25:27

Association or Rock Products Association. And

25:29

would you be interested? And they hit me

25:31

right on the wrong day. I mean, I was My

25:33

wife was just really worried.

25:35

And I said, you know, maybe I should. And

25:37

at the same time, we had a fifteen

25:39

fifteen split in the senate between

25:41

these and ours And one of our

25:43

r's had left us and gone over and made a

25:45

deal with the d's and become the president,

25:47

and he was just making my

25:49

life miserable. So I

25:51

said, well, let's take the deal and

25:53

get my family back on track, which

25:55

we did. And you came back in two

25:57

thousand fourteen Correct.

25:59

till

25:59

legislature ran for the house. Again,

26:02

you've got term limits there, which is why you

26:04

were you had shift from

26:06

chamber to chamber. So you came back

26:08

to the house And by two

26:10

thousand nineteen, you were speaker of the house.

26:12

And most speakers of the

26:14

Arizona House would not

26:16

become nationally known you

26:18

probably wish that you were one of

26:20

them who did not become

26:22

nationally known. So let's talk about this

26:24

experience. You began to talk

26:26

about this. You talked about the election

26:28

in two thousand twenty in Arizona, which

26:30

became sort of ground zero for the whole

26:32

debate about the election that that the

26:34

president started really

26:36

before the election and and then

26:38

after and your

26:40

story really began in

26:42

earnest on November twenty second

26:44

of two thousand twenty.

26:46

And the the reason not it's not just

26:48

that I just read up on you, but the date of the

26:50

Kennedy assassination so November twenty second

26:53

just stuck in my head. And you got a call

26:55

from the president, Rudy Giuliani,

26:57

and talk a little bit about that call. I know

26:59

you did at the hearing, but give us the

27:01

essence of it. We were just

27:02

returning from church services.

27:04

In fact, I had to sing in church that

27:06

day and it went well. I felt like

27:08

I'd done good and we pulled

27:11

into church I mean, into the driveway

27:13

and Karen Fan of senate

27:15

president called, we had been discussing

27:17

how to make an audit work

27:19

to reestablish trust,

27:21

or hope. etcetera. And and then she called,

27:23

I thought maybe about our decisions

27:25

about an audit. And she said

27:27

that the White House had called, tried

27:29

to get in touch with her, and that

27:31

she guessed they would probably be trying to get in touch with me and

27:33

that we should make sure that whatever we do, we

27:35

we're arm and arm, that we're not split.

27:37

And I said whatever. News

27:39

to me, Greg, she hangs up

27:41

and immediately the Bluetooth says,

27:44

you know, the White House. So I pick it up

27:46

and Don Edd had stepped out of a

27:48

car and And it was Rudy after

27:50

the secretary put me through. It was

27:52

Rudy and he, you know, gives these compliments,

27:55

great job, all this glad

27:57

handing stuff. Mhmm.

27:59

And

27:59

then the president came on and

28:02

similarly some niceties. He

28:04

said, know you're doing a great job. We're proud you. Blah blah

28:06

blah. And and I said, well, I mister president,

28:08

I gotta thank you. When I went to sleep

28:10

on new on election night,

28:13

I didn't think was be speaker. I thought I'd make pull out

28:15

the election for my membership, but

28:17

the elections were going bad for

28:20

my side. and the people that were

28:22

supporting me and my speakership against

28:24

of all things, mister Finjan, and -- Yeah.

28:26

-- now running for secretary of state.

28:28

Yeah. Yeah. And I when

28:30

I woke up in the morning, it was just the opposite.

28:32

Big time winds all over the

28:34

legislature, but I'm sorry, not for you.

28:36

And then Rudy says, well, we wanna talk about

28:38

that. There's a lot of fraud in your state, and

28:41

I braced myself thinking, okay, here we

28:43

go again. You know, and he gives

28:45

these enormous numbers of

28:47

Two hundred thousand illegal immigrants, he

28:49

said. Right? Yeah. It might have been six

28:51

thousand dead people. Yeah. Things like that.

28:53

I'm not saying those were the exact

28:55

numbers, but I'm thinking it's pretty close to those types of numbers. Mhmm.

28:57

But it was tens of thousands and

28:59

hundreds of thousands of others. And

29:01

I said, look, okay, that's a

29:03

big story and So why are

29:05

we here talking? What's the ask?

29:08

And the president says, Rudy, what's the

29:10

ask? And he says, well, we

29:12

would like to have a committee to

29:14

refer and review this stuff

29:16

publicly in a in a bona fide

29:18

committee. Now my committee chair

29:20

on federalism issues was

29:22

mister Finjan, and he had already shown that

29:24

he was He was milking

29:26

this thing like he had the COVID nineteen challenges,

29:29

anything against me, and I wasn't about to

29:31

commit let a circus get

29:33

turned loose. from what had happened in the

29:35

previous three weeks. And

29:37

so I said, look, I'm not interested

29:39

in a circus. They said,

29:41

well, know, we we would very much like to have

29:43

this open. We don't want to keep this stuff under the

29:45

rug, blah blah blah, trying to do

29:47

a a pitch on me. And I said,

29:49

But what's the end?

29:51

What end? What do what you

29:53

do have these names. Right? He goes, yeah.

29:55

Do you have, like,

29:57

names? of

29:58

the two hundred thousand illegal aliens

30:00

and the six thousand dead people and

30:02

blah blah blah. Others,

30:03

people

30:04

who've moved, word in the

30:06

state, such. And he said, yes, we do. I

30:08

said, you can bring those to me. Yes, yes.

30:11

I said, well, But

30:13

why why? What's

30:14

the end result that you're aiming

30:17

for? So you get a hearing. What?

30:19

And what's the ask? Rudy says

30:21

the president? And he says,

30:23

well, we understand from a highly

30:25

placed member of the

30:25

legislature that there's a law that would

30:28

allow you you,

30:30

rhetorical you, to

30:32

throw out

30:34

or set aside the Biden electors

30:37

and replace them with Trump

30:39

electors, you know, if that we could show the

30:41

proof, etcetera. And I said, now

30:43

that's a new one. I have not heard that

30:45

one anywhere. And I said, no. Wait. I took

30:47

an oath that I wasn't gonna do any

30:49

I told you early, and I had told I

30:51

voted for you, walked for you, campaign, for you,

30:53

but I won't do anything illegal for you.

30:55

Nothing. And the president said, I don't want you

30:57

to. I'm not asking you to. And that

30:59

was kind of a

31:00

prelim to the conversation. Do

31:02

you think he said that because

31:04

he wanted that noted. I I

31:06

would

31:06

I'm glad to note it. He did say.

31:09

Mhmm. Mhmm. And so

31:10

but I said, You're asking me now

31:12

to do something that I feel is against my

31:15

oath. I took an

31:15

oath to the constitution, both in

31:17

that national end of my state,

31:19

and to obey the laws of my state, I'm not

31:21

gonna break those oaths. And they said, well,

31:23

you know, we I said, which one of those do

31:25

you want me to break? said, well, you owe your

31:28

allegiance to the National Constitution. I

31:30

said, oh, this is great.

31:32

This is a great conversation. But

31:35

something of this magnitude I will

31:37

not even consider without the

31:39

proof, and I want

31:40

that proof to my lawyers,

31:42

and my lawyers hit this bill, and

31:44

I'm gonna try to give you their number

31:46

right now. So you got it in mind. I think I

31:48

can do this on this phone. And I said, mister

31:51

president, I can't use this iPhone. I'm bad with

31:53

it. I can't even tweet like you

31:55

can. And it'd be me telling my

31:57

grandkids that I hung up on the president of the

31:59

United States trying to pull this

32:01

off And he says,

32:01

well, go for it. And they were kinda chuckling.

32:04

And I did. And I did. I hung up

32:06

on it. And then Rudy called

32:08

back and he was laughing. He said, hey, he's

32:11

president thought that was pretty funny. I said, I think it's pretty

32:13

funny. It was an intentional, but it

32:15

did. And I said, but I want proof of duty.

32:17

This is a big deal now. I

32:19

gotta have the proof. And he said,

32:21

we'll get it to you. I said, you call my lawyer. Will do. I

32:23

said, I'm not I'm not kidding. You gotta call

32:25

my lawyer and I gotta have this

32:28

discussion. never did. Never called the

32:30

lawyer. Lawyer tried to get in touch with them,

32:32

never made contact, and I I've talked

32:34

to him later. That was how that all that

32:37

conversation went down. when you as you tell that

32:39

story, I think, what are you thinking? You're here

32:41

you are Rusty Bowers. You're yes, you're

32:43

speaker of the Arizona House.

32:46

But all of a sudden, you're sort of

32:48

at the hinge of history here and

32:50

you get the president of the United States on

32:52

the line asking you to do something that

32:55

you that you felt really, really uncomfortable. I'd

32:57

say uncomfortable is an understatement.

32:59

I'm thinking what role the election,

33:01

the presidency of the United

33:03

States? I'm gonna do that to my state

33:05

after all the stuff we've been throughout here

33:07

with COVID and a host of other

33:10

issues. Now I'm

33:10

gonna say I'm gonna be, you know, Don

33:12

Quixote and I'm gonna No. Yeah.

33:16

But it's intima isn't isn't it intimidating

33:19

to have the president of the

33:21

United States call you and

33:23

lean on you to do anything

33:25

much less this. Yeah.

33:26

I mean, did you I'm just trying to get a

33:28

sense of I never felt like These

33:31

guys are gonna hurt me if I don't do

33:33

anything. They're

33:33

What's the downside? I thought,

33:36

whoa. I'm talking to the president, and that is this,

33:38

you know, I've talked to George Bush, but

33:40

he was on his way up, not

33:42

afterwards. But, I mean, we were just talking I

33:44

was just me to him, to

33:46

growing up And I

33:48

thought, this is a big deal. This is a big

33:50

deal. He he did end up

33:52

hurting you in

33:54

the head. he ended your and he he

33:56

effectively ended your political career.

33:58

You were running for the senate again

34:00

because you were term limited and you ended

34:03

up losing by thirty points in your primary.

34:05

But I worse than that, worse

34:07

than that. And, yeah, and you heard from other people,

34:09

you heard from just Thomas's

34:12

wife, Jenny, who said, no. No. No.

34:14

She never talked to me. No. But she sent you an

34:16

email. Yes. She did. And it said,

34:18

you know, sent send a clean slate of electors. And I don't know what

34:20

what did you interpret clean slate

34:22

to me? Plant exactly what

34:24

they want. Yeah. Yeah. They

34:26

wanted to

34:28

say as version of an elector. Did that surprise you by the way to

34:30

hear from her? Yeah. I I thought it was weird. I'd

34:32

never thought that justice Thomas would

34:35

have a retletip I didn't

34:37

even think I realized at the time when she was

34:39

till somebody said, hey, that's just a Thomas

34:42

wire. Said, whoa. She's

34:44

getting into this, you know. But

34:46

I had a lot of things that I didn't sit

34:48

and dwell on that much. I had twenty thousand emails a day.

34:50

Yeah. I think when I met

34:54

you, you gave me some code or something to use because you

34:56

couldn't to separate me from the

34:58

-- Yeah. -- hoards of people

35:00

who were

35:02

calling, you know, just to tell you what

35:04

a what a fine human being

35:06

you were. Uh-huh. But,

35:08

and you heard from as

35:11

the date wore on to

35:13

January sixth, you heard from

35:15

John Eastman who's now famously

35:18

entwined in this whole insurrection

35:20

business you heard from Andy

35:22

Biggs who's a congressman

35:24

very close to Trump. All

35:27

asking again that you

35:29

send an alternative slate of

35:32

electors.

35:32

And Rudy and Jenna

35:34

and their entourage, Janet Ellis,

35:36

the lawyer for Trump -- Right. --

35:38

when they came to this cent after

35:40

their hearing, the public hearing that

35:43

that mister Fennstrom called and had down at the at

35:45

the hotel. Yeah. I heard from them too, and

35:47

it was a review of the conversation

35:49

we'd had earlier, all the

35:51

charges of fraud, thankfully, some senators really lit into him. And

35:53

then he says, you know, I'm a Republican. I thought we were all

35:56

Republicans here. I thought we'd get a little

35:58

nicer reception, trying to,

36:00

you know, set us back and it

36:02

wasn't working.

36:03

We just

36:04

said, you're asking us, this is a big deal. And

36:06

then I hit him. I said, you know, I've listened here

36:08

for a while. And did you bring me my proofs?

36:10

and he did the famous dodger thing and passed it to Jenna,

36:12

and she passed it to the hotel room. And I

36:14

said, okay. It's been great. I'm

36:17

gonna be leaving. So Good

36:19

to see you. Bye. And I stood up

36:21

and left. And so there were

36:23

several conversations also. Netelson from

36:26

Montana, the professor, he didn't advocate.

36:28

He just was just laying out the

36:30

possibilities, but he said, I've been in

36:32

politics before and and I said, so what's your

36:34

advice? He says, it

36:36

won't work. if you

36:38

think

36:38

you can get away with this, you're going for a

36:40

bit. And Eastman was, you know, let the courts

36:42

courts take a shot at it. You know, just

36:44

punt it. Anyway, in addition to the emails, there

36:46

was real unpleasantness people

36:49

marching on your home and

36:52

they were marching at your on your home at really difficult

36:54

time you referenced earlier your

36:56

daughter, Casey, and her struggles. and

36:59

those struggles were in their final

37:02

chapter when this was all going

37:04

on. And she was living in your

37:06

home. You were carrying for her, you and

37:08

your wife were caring for her,

37:10

that must have been excruciating.

37:12

Well, I'd go through all of fifty

37:14

times. But

37:16

yeah. God

37:17

has his comes at you. And yeah,

37:19

it was tough, but I've

37:20

I've thought many times since.

37:22

how

37:24

many people in America in the last two years have lost loved ones

37:26

and have gone through terrible

37:30

things. It has given Don Ed and

37:32

I a An

37:34

empathy, a

37:34

level of empathy we'd had never

37:37

known for other people and

37:39

their suffering, which I think

37:40

is a blessing. can you tell me about

37:42

Casey? Because I I read,

37:44

you know, that she was in in

37:46

the giving world. She, you

37:48

know, she's very caring person

37:51

and sounded like a lovely

37:53

person. She was a a beautiful

37:55

woman and very athletic glaided to

37:58

call it

37:59

volleyball. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And her older sister were it was

38:02

shocking to me to watch these women so

38:04

nice. Walk out there and six back there

38:06

pulling it and turn around just

38:08

like tigers. but

38:10

she had challenges at the same time, let

38:12

her as men. I'll just leave it

38:14

at that. And as she fought

38:17

her way through these challenges and got her

38:20

degree and counseling. She wanted

38:22

to help other women who are

38:24

similarly affected and had

38:26

some big setbacks,

38:28

but ultimately got her and her

38:30

cousins, three cousins, all

38:33

female, a little practice, and they opened it, and they each

38:35

had their certificates of different areas and they were

38:37

so happy. And that came

38:40

down hard

38:42

when they found out, we think the bookkeeper was was

38:44

billing in excess of not the

38:46

hours because they didn't keep the books. They

38:48

hadn't hired it out. Anyway, Yep.

38:51

Shadi, is this it really threw her first band and and she gave

38:53

up and we would try to keep her

38:55

going, but she

38:58

just couldn't So it

39:00

was

39:00

hard. And her son now is up

39:02

at southern Utah universities trying to

39:04

he wants to play some football and And

39:07

so we're trying to be poor

39:09

replacements and keep it up, you know,

39:11

the family. That's what it is. And

39:14

and we're grateful for what we've learned

39:16

through it all. you imply I mean, I I don't know. I don't

39:18

know the details of this, and and I

39:20

don't wanna invade your privacy or her privacy.

39:22

I talk a lot about

39:25

mental health issues, mental illness,

39:28

struggles that people have substance abuse problems.

39:30

And so on on this podcast, I

39:33

lost my dad to suicide, so

39:35

I feel really strongly about talking

39:37

about it. But it sounds like

39:39

she had she had

39:42

those struggle. She had them and

39:44

was trying to help others with them. She did

39:45

her best. Mhmm. And she was loved

39:47

and admired and

39:50

Many of

39:51

her clients, she helped them and just took so much joy

39:53

in being able to help them. She had

39:55

her little two rooms full of

39:57

clothes that she'd travel all over

39:59

getting people to donate for the give

40:02

all the sizes so that when the women came

40:04

in, she could dress them up and do their hair and

40:06

help them and it was precious thing. Those

40:08

last four months were their

40:10

best before before things

40:12

kinda came apart.

40:14

Yeah. Well, I I can't even tell you how

40:16

sorry I am for

40:18

your loss. I I have kids and

40:20

grandkids of my

40:22

own and I can't

40:24

imagine a harder

40:26

thing. We're gonna

40:28

take a short break and we'll be right

40:30

back with more of the I'm

40:33

Dr. Sanjay

40:35

Gupta, and this

40:39

weekend, chasing life. public perception and the work that we're doing

40:41

has shifted pretty profoundly over the last

40:44

decade. That's Albert

40:46

Garcia Romero. He's a researcher

40:48

at Johns Hopkins who is studying

40:49

the potential of psilocybin, commonly

40:52

known as magic mushrooms. He's studying

40:54

this as a therapeutic to

40:56

treat conditions such as depression and addiction. Listen to

40:58

chasing life on Apple

41:00

Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio,

41:02

or your favorite podcast app.

41:06

And

41:10

now back

41:11

to the show.

41:15

I

41:17

wanna ask you about your state now. You know,

41:20

we're recording this before the

41:22

election there. Mark Fincham, who is the guy who you talked

41:24

about, who was on the point

41:26

for Trump in trying to

41:28

overturn the election

41:30

in Arizona is

41:32

now very much in contention to become secretary of state

41:34

with the responsibility of administering elections

41:37

in your state.

41:39

Harry Lake, who's the Republican candidate for governor ran

41:41

on a platform that the election had been stolen.

41:44

And as we sit here

41:46

today, AAA

41:48

week before, the election.

41:50

She won't say whether she'll accept

41:52

the results of the election. You

41:55

must be watching this

41:58

with horror. Well,

41:58

a large amount of disappointment, but

42:00

the people that

42:02

elected the

42:04

election deniers

42:06

are impervious to being educated. There's

42:09

Cormack McCarthy, favorite author.

42:11

Yeah. AAA

42:13

creature can't learn that

42:16

which its heart has no shape to

42:18

hold. And there's only one way to

42:21

hold it, and that's anger and

42:23

vengeance. It's like, wow. in

42:25

a political sense. So we don't need

42:28

proof. We just feel it. And it doesn't

42:30

matter what proof is presented like

42:32

Finjan must on that program

42:34

last night when they showed him, you know, there was

42:36

there was, what, twelve actions

42:38

taken against people for

42:40

tapering or abusing ballot privileges and four of those

42:42

convictions, four ballots

42:44

in Maricopa County out of

42:48

what Three and a half millions. Three fourteen? Yes.

42:50

Yeah. Simply one by eleven thousand

42:52

or so. Doesn't matter. It's a defect

42:54

in the system. And I'm thinking if that's

42:56

the mentality that

42:58

the own I will never give up my position that I've

43:00

taken here. I won't admit, you know,

43:02

I should relook at this. Nothing.

43:06

It's all full speed

43:08

ahead, and it's playing to a very

43:10

energized that's a nice

43:12

term, bass. And they

43:14

they don't wanna hear anything about proof.

43:16

because it doesn't exist, but I just focus on mister Finci, knowing

43:18

what I do about the man and

43:21

the bills that he's passed and

43:24

the the things that he's done and said, it is a concern that

43:26

he would write the next election manual

43:28

and send it to a election

43:32

denier, attorney general, who can send it to

43:34

an election denier governor, and it

43:36

would become the guidance

43:38

document for elections. think if that

43:40

happened, that this place would just be

43:42

a a live with

43:44

recall of a bunch of other stuff. And

43:46

there is a legislature. And I don't think

43:48

that you got good half of the

43:50

Republicans in a a solid

43:52

core or solid failbacks of

43:54

Democrats are gonna let this stuff

43:56

go by. without taking some action. So it just it

43:58

just looks like a mess in

43:59

the making at a worst case

44:02

scenario. Now, if they're

44:04

all elected, Are they

44:05

gonna turn around and say, see, it

44:07

was fraudulent. I'm guessing they'll say no. Well, that

44:09

is the principle, isn't it if you don't like

44:12

the result? then

44:12

you scream foul. Right? You spent thirty years of

44:14

your life off

44:15

and on in this world of politics

44:17

and government. What are

44:20

the implications for democracy.

44:22

It's interesting because so many

44:24

people have called

44:25

me from around the world

44:27

and interviewed me, almost all of

44:29

the European countries. Mhmm. And everyone's looking at

44:32

America, and they do it and I ask them

44:34

that, why is this so important? Why are you

44:36

talking me?

44:38

I mean, who am I? I'm nobody. And they say

44:40

I I'd say, did you ever hear about me before

44:42

any of this? They go, of course, god.

44:45

I said,

44:46

that's right. I said, but it's where you are and what

44:49

you did. And what that means to all

44:51

of us that we've already been

44:53

down this this slide before. And we know

44:55

that if America doesn't stay

44:58

strong, we're next. And that

45:00

things that happen in America have

45:02

ripples here.

45:04

and they're big ripples. So we're very concerned. And

45:06

as Americans, you know, we swing with whatever

45:08

the social media of the day says,

45:12

But for many around the world, this is like big stuff.

45:14

And so I I think it's, in

45:16

many ways, people are starting to get it. It's taken

45:18

a lot of work, and I'm off to miss

45:21

that enough people will hold the line

45:23

and demand that the republic be

45:26

maintained with its

45:27

democratic voting

45:30

underpinnings and that we can will You have optimism.

45:32

You can't motivate action. And

45:34

so, I'm hanging in. And what's

45:37

next for you? you'll be leaving

45:40

office at the end of the year.

45:41

Obviously, sculpting and painting

45:44

is just one answer. but

45:46

do you see yourself continuing to speak

45:48

out on these issues? Yeah. I will speak

45:50

out. I don't know if there'll be a platform to speak from.

45:52

I don't know if I'll have a pulpit. but

45:55

I will do

45:56

the things I love to do, and I love to serve

45:58

in a host of

45:59

ways. And if an opportunity came,

46:02

I am especially concerned

46:04

of a localized issue in the west that

46:06

being water,

46:06

yes, and wanting to push through

46:09

what we've been able to

46:11

accomplish thus far to a successful, structural,

46:14

long term solution. And

46:16

so I may be involved, but to

46:18

do that, there's people that have to ask me. And

46:20

that's it.

46:22

and they may not, you know? So I get it. Well,

46:24

I'll say this, you have spent a lifetime

46:27

creating things and you can create

46:29

your own platform as well. You've got the

46:32

standing to do it. But I

46:34

just wanna thank you. I wanna

46:36

thank you because I care deeply about this democracy.

46:38

And the reason we've

46:40

survived thus far is because there were

46:42

people at key moments who were willing to

46:44

stand up

46:46

and say, no, I believe more deeply in this democracy than

46:48

than I do in party

46:50

loyalty or other considerations, and

46:52

I'm gonna draw the line here. you

46:55

did that. I was proud to sit at your

46:58

table at the profiles and encourage

47:00

dinner, and I I

47:02

can't think of a

47:04

more deserving person to have received that award. So it's

47:06

an honor to be with you. Pleasure to

47:08

be with you. I

47:08

look forward to talking more down

47:12

the line. Thank

47:12

you very much. I'm honored to be with you, and I

47:14

hope that we can do good together in the future.

47:18

Thank

47:18

you. Thank you

47:20

for listening

47:21

to the X Files brought to you

47:23

by the University of Chicago Institute

47:25

of Politics and

47:28

CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Alison

47:30

Siegel. The show is also produced by

47:32

Miriam, Fender, Anneenberg, Jeff

47:34

Fox, and Hannah Grace McDonald.

47:37

and special thanks to our partners at CNN.

47:40

For more programming from the

47:42

IOP, visit politics dot

47:44

uchacargo dot

47:46

edu.

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