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And now now from the Institute

0:37

of Politics at the University

0:40

of Chicago and CNN Audio,

0:42

and CNN audio, The Axe Files, your host,

0:44

host, David Axelrod. Before we we start some

0:46

news I need to share with you.

0:48

you. Today's podcast will be the be

0:50

the 605th of the the Axe Files, and

0:52

at least for now, for now, last. Even

0:55

Even saying those words out loud

0:57

is hard for me, these these

0:59

conversations I've had and many of

1:01

you have shared just about every

1:03

week these past nine years years. been

1:05

such a wonderful journey. journey. Yes, we've

1:07

we've talked about issues and politics and

1:09

even broke a little news now

1:11

and then. and But that was never

1:13

what this podcast was all about. was

1:15

It was about people and their stories,

1:17

their about where they came from, how

1:20

they grew up, about the life

1:22

experiences, some joyful, some challenging, and some

1:24

tragic that their lives. It was It

1:26

was moving to hear John McCain describe

1:28

his love and respect for Mo Udall, a

1:30

liberal Democratic from

1:32

Arizona, and how he would visit

1:34

and read news from back home to

1:36

his to during the final months of

1:38

Udall's life. life. to something we've lost

1:41

in our politics. Justice Sotomayor

1:43

told us about

1:45

her hard -scrabble beginnings

1:47

in the in Bronx,

1:49

a lifelong battle with

1:51

juvenile diabetes, and and

1:54

the heavy responsibility

1:56

she feels to be

1:58

a role model

2:00

for for other strivers to

2:02

make their way against

2:04

the the odds. Cyrus Habib

2:07

was a brilliant

2:09

political prodigy. line from childhood, he

2:11

quickly climbed the ladder in Washington state

2:13

government. Elected Lieutenant Governor at 36, he

2:15

seemed destined for even bigger things. Then

2:17

he abruptly dropped out of politics and

2:20

joined a Jesuit Navitiate because he told

2:22

us he realized it was becoming more

2:24

about him than the people he ran

2:26

to serve. My goal was always that

2:28

you and I would leave each conversation

2:30

knowing my guest in deeper and more

2:33

meaningful ways. I wanted this podcast to

2:35

be one small antidote to the poor

2:37

nature of today's politics and social media

2:39

culture that so often reduces people in

2:41

negative caricatures and robs us of our

2:43

common humanity. It hasn't always worked that

2:46

way. Occasionally a guest was so encased

2:48

in talking points that they just couldn't

2:50

or wouldn't open up. Sometimes folks were

2:52

less than I had hoped they would

2:54

be, but most often, even people with

2:57

whom I strongly disagree, have surprised me

2:59

in ways I didn't expect. I'm grateful

3:01

that so many prominent people were willing

3:03

to share their stories honestly and openly,

3:05

and many of you have told me

3:07

that their stories, particularly ones of struggle

3:10

and perseverance, have inspired and comforted you

3:12

as well. I step away for now

3:14

because I need to make more time

3:16

for the next chapter of my own

3:18

story, for my great and blessedly growing

3:20

family. for friends and new adventures but

3:23

trust me I'll miss these conversations and

3:25

I'll miss you and I'm sure we'll

3:27

meet again but even without the ax

3:29

files let us continue to be seekers

3:31

of each other's stories and penetrate the

3:33

god-awful silos that drive us apart and

3:36

now episode 605 If I had planned

3:38

properly, it would have been episode 606,

3:40

the prefix for zip codes in my

3:42

beloved hometown of Chicago, and that would

3:44

have been particularly appropriate, because my final

3:46

guest is U.S. Ambassador to Japan, Ram

3:49

Emanuel, former Chicago mayor, White House Chief

3:51

of Staff, Congressman, and more. We've known

3:53

each other for 40 years. He always

3:55

has something interesting to say. Here's that

3:57

conversation. Ambassador

4:04

Rahm Emanuel, my lifelong

4:06

friend. friend. Good

4:09

to Good to be with

4:11

you here on the very last

4:13

episode of the ax so So

4:15

appropriate that. that given the...

4:18

is the current call. call?

4:20

This is is the curtain

4:22

call, yeah. So to to this

4:25

time with you. like folks can everybody knows

4:27

everything about you. Folks can go back

4:29

and listen to our previous podcasts.

4:31

We did one early on. We did

4:33

one when you were Maybe the Maybe

4:35

the first one was when you were

4:37

But But in any case, we've done

4:39

several. We did one on TV. So

4:41

I'm not So I'm not a go over

4:44

a lot of history. I just

4:46

wanna pick up where we left off

4:48

off. because you left you left the mayoralty and

4:50

made some money for a while. and

4:52

then And then Joe Biden

4:54

was elected president and you decided to

4:56

accept to accept this appointment

4:58

to ambassador to Japan. did a lot a lot

5:00

of talk about you to be

5:03

in the to so on. That didn't

5:05

happen. and so on that didn't Tell me

5:07

about the decision. For

5:09

you to do this, because and

5:12

Rahm were not words that

5:14

easily went together in a

5:16

lot of people's minds. in a lot

5:18

of people's my own So including

5:20

my own families I'm sure of

5:22

sure I'm that of that so

5:24

what? What? What what what tell me

5:26

me about? Tell me about

5:28

the process of of getting that

5:30

idea. that idea? mean, I mean,

5:32

you would not not Google Rahm

5:34

Emanuel and diplomat it'll come

5:37

up up search unfounded that

5:39

said One of the things

5:41

I think I One of the things

5:43

I think I discovered of kind of

5:46

instinctually knew. knew You have this kind

5:48

of mind's eye image that have

5:50

this kind of Mind's Eye

5:52

image a the a gray flannel Guy in

5:54

a gray flannel double -breasted suit,

5:56

smoke thinking. and and

5:58

drafting his first cut of the long memo

6:01

like George Kennan. And that does exist. The

6:04

truth is, which is like James

6:06

Baker's book and the title, The

6:08

Politics of Diplomacy, it's Diplomacy is

6:10

an extension of politics. And if

6:12

you actually appreciate politics. and

6:15

have a tactical sense

6:17

of it. You can do

6:19

diplomacy, but this was a part of

6:21

the world. I had some familiarity, but

6:23

I got, you would say it's like

6:25

very low. And. It would

6:27

be a platform where I could be

6:29

part of not only learning, which

6:31

I think is valuable, but also impacting.

6:34

And I think done that was

6:36

kind of the... think I

6:39

told you this a friend of

6:41

ours I don't know whether

6:43

I should mention his name or

6:45

not but it was Larry

6:47

Summers Was that was that like

6:49

Jeopardy 200? Larry Summers for

6:51

200. said said To

6:53

me, when you were considering this, ROM's gonna

6:55

hate this because all you do when you're

6:57

an ambassador is you take like a... you

7:00

know, assistant deputy secretaries to go

7:02

and meet their counterparts. And you

7:04

sit there and take notes and

7:06

write memos. And I said to

7:08

him. Larry, are you nuts?

7:10

Do you know the guy we're

7:12

talking about? I said he'll be captain

7:14

of the Asian team within. like a

7:16

month. But

7:19

And I'm happy to say that

7:21

I was right. Tell me,

7:23

you did not play this role.

7:26

in quite the way. others have,

7:28

you know, this goes back to the first a of

7:30

people. They were saying, oh, you're going

7:32

to have to pace yourself, you're going to learn

7:34

how to slow down, et cetera, et et cetera. You can't do

7:36

this. You can't do that. You do get, you know, And

7:39

I thought thought about know what I'm

7:42

gonna be myself. I mean, I

7:44

know the limits. I would work for as a of

7:46

staff or president. I was mayor. I

7:48

know the boundaries, you may step over a few

7:50

times and get sides. And

7:53

I decided I'm not going to kind of

7:55

try to be something I'm not. and

7:58

And... I I,

8:00

you know, I said it that

8:02

my Senate confirmation. that the next

8:04

three years in determine the next

8:06

30 years for America and the Indo

8:08

-Pacific. I I that the last three

8:10

years for Japan has felt like

8:13

30 years with my presence. I think

8:15

they look at they look at

8:17

it say, we never knew somebody could

8:19

have this kinetic energy. On the

8:21

other hand, The truth

8:23

of the matter is under Prime Minister

8:25

Yoshida and President Biden, both were poised

8:27

and both had a relationship to take

8:29

this to the next level. I

8:31

had the trust of the president.

8:33

I built the trust with the Japanese.

8:35

I played my role as a

8:37

to push it farther and faster. And

8:40

I think the Truth is

8:42

both countries and our alliance is

8:44

better prepared for what I think will

8:47

be a very challenging but very

8:49

opportunistic 30 years if we play it

8:51

I want to get into that

8:53

because you have been very active and

8:55

you've done a lot of things

8:57

that are, I think significant for for

8:59

the future. But I'm sort of interested

9:01

in the internal dynamic as well,

9:03

because you say, you know, sometimes you

9:05

may be off sides and so

9:08

on so forth. Tell

9:10

me about the relationship with

9:12

the State Department when you strayed

9:14

off sides because they're not

9:16

used to people straying off sides.

9:19

I can understand when you

9:21

have X hundreds of thousand people

9:23

across the globe. you

9:26

have to have a tight reign.

9:29

I get it. You can't have

9:31

100 ,000 entrepreneurs, but you can't have zero. So

9:34

that's one. I

9:36

have strained. under the

9:38

State Department. give you one anecdote,

9:40

which is a classic example. I get

9:42

here January 19th. the war,

9:44

Russia's war, against Ukraine

9:47

starts one month. later. February

9:49

22. a week

9:51

after that. So So basically five weeks here and I'm still

9:54

trying to figure out where the bathroom is, et cetera. On

9:57

a Friday afternoon at about 10 o 'clock the

9:59

the Ukrainian. ambassador to Japan is

10:01

going to give a speech at

10:03

the national international press club. And

10:07

on the following Monday was going to

10:09

be the Russian ambassador. He schedules his

10:11

for 1230 that same day moves it

10:13

from Monday to Friday. And

10:17

so I said to the senior staff I said what do

10:19

you said guys think about this? He said oh we can

10:21

send a note taker. I said a note taker. I

10:24

said well uh is that really all

10:26

we can do? They go well we

10:28

can maybe get a couple questions asked.

10:30

I said no. I said here's what

10:32

we're going to do you call them

10:34

up tell the international press club I'm

10:36

coming at two o 'clock I'm not

10:38

in the rush and get the last

10:40

word I'm going to get speak after him.

10:43

He'll have Ukraine, Russia, and then the

10:45

United States and everybody at the tables

10:47

and remember I'm here five weeks they

10:49

said we can't get we can't get

10:51

approval. I said get approval from I

10:53

said hey we all went to college

10:55

we're not taking put inside. We we

10:57

kind of know where we are we

10:59

know the United States position we're going

11:01

to write a speech or go and

11:03

it was liberating for a lot of

11:05

people a lot of other people like

11:07

whoa. But

11:09

I don't not saying anything critical of

11:11

other ambassadors but I was not going

11:13

to sit there and wait for in

11:15

a digital age wait for an department

11:17

that's barely in the analog age get

11:19

ready like we're I'm not clearing this

11:21

stuff. Well what what age the state department

11:23

say? Well at first they were very

11:26

upset they said we'd like to see

11:28

the draft of the speech and as

11:30

you know me David I kind of

11:32

have more kind of outlining just kind

11:34

of but then I had given an

11:36

answer to a question on freedom and

11:38

the lower freedom and why people wanted

11:40

still it's that freedom is a pull

11:42

on people's hearts etc they ended up

11:44

putting a one minute video from that

11:46

speech on the state department official website

11:48

and it got a lot of taken

11:51

so I think they we had a

11:53

learning process and a feeding process and

11:55

a lot of times I bumped the

11:57

grind at one time I

12:00

wrote wrote a piece on something about

12:02

energy. praise the praise the president. praise I kind

12:04

of got I at and I said, got

12:06

you know what? at I've been a said, hey, you

12:08

know what, I've I've been a a White House said, staff,

12:10

going to do. been a mayor, have my

12:12

resignation. what we're gonna do. You You call it

12:14

any time you want. You call it any

12:16

time not living like this where I

12:18

can't do stuff I I can't wait six

12:20

weeks to get a response. weeks then

12:22

you guys write a talking point that

12:24

says guys it's not memorable. point that

12:26

says time you want. it's not can fire

12:28

me. You You have that liberty or you can

12:31

ask me to resign. me to Did you actually send

12:33

the letter? send the letter? I it to the

12:35

person and I said, that's how I'm going to live. I'm

12:37

going have the latitude, the you call it when

12:39

you want. when you want. And then they said, that's not

12:41

what we're talking about. I said, well, I'm not

12:43

living like this. said, well, I'm not living with

12:45

fear. I am not all the time. I

12:47

have other the time. but I'm not living on a

12:49

career living on a if I get fear. And if call me.

12:51

I said, and you can always at any time

12:53

you want. going to tell me to

12:55

step down. call me. But I But I am

12:57

going to try to make the most, as you

12:59

know me, David, at this point, point. going to

13:01

try to, these three years. three years, live

13:04

every day as if we as if we

13:06

push, push. push, it annoying? Was it

13:08

it was Yes. Was it effective? I I

13:10

think the product speaks for itself. itself.

13:12

So, well, let me just

13:14

stop for a second and ask

13:16

you, because you did, in

13:18

fact, forge this trilateral meeting with

13:20

the South Koreans South Japanese, and

13:22

you closed this this chasm. that existed in

13:25

relation to was involved, everybody David, was

13:27

I understand. David. No, I mean, you,

13:29

meaning the United States, the but

13:31

you were actively involved in

13:33

that process. that You've got two

13:35

countries got two a considerable amount of

13:37

political turmoil, of both those countries.

13:40

You could argue You can argue 3D. Yeah,

13:42

Yeah, exactly. mean, I mean, that is

13:44

another point because we have a new new

13:46

president to office and his relationship with

13:48

the South Koreans the least has never been.

13:50

has never been particularly... Good as

13:52

I remember it. it. Yeah.

13:55

So what happens to that?

13:57

happens what happens to

13:59

that that you've made here and why

14:01

do you think, why is it

14:03

important to try and maintain it?

14:05

It's important because China

14:08

has. and again

14:10

this is about politics China

14:12

has a simple message and a simple

14:14

strategy. The messages were,

14:16

we are the rising power, America's

14:18

a declining power, it's gonna be

14:20

out. Either get in line. or

14:23

you're gonna get the Philippine

14:25

treatment and we're just use all

14:28

our power to crush your

14:30

sovereignty and independence. We have another

14:32

countervailing message. we are a permanent Pacific

14:34

power and presence and you can bet long on us.

14:36

which is where Japan, Korea, Australia,

14:38

New Zealand. Philippines that's where

14:40

they are. Um China

14:43

tries to isolate countries.

14:46

By multilateral, we isolate the

14:48

isolator. China. That's

14:50

the strategy. Now look That's not

14:52

foreign affairs magazine right up, but that's it

14:55

it. in a nutshell. okay

14:57

number two. Number two The

15:00

worst thing China hates about the

15:02

trilateral, whether it's the... or

15:04

the Quad the trilateral between United States, Japan

15:06

and Korea, or the United States, Japan and

15:08

the Philippines, which is very valuable. and never

15:10

gets the full kind of conversation, is

15:12

it roots America in the Indo -Pacific.

15:15

It makes China's goal of getting

15:17

us out harder. It levels the playing

15:19

field. This an a way game

15:21

for America. game a home game for

15:23

China. And when we're rooted with our

15:25

allies. It's a home

15:27

game for us or closer to a

15:30

home game, which is what China can't

15:32

stand. And so now One

15:34

of the things that I think an

15:36

incoming administration will have to appreciate. you

15:38

cannot. confront

15:41

deter China. and

15:43

make your allies insecure. Doesn't mean they

15:45

win every point. but if your allies

15:47

are, and this is an example. Japan.

15:50

was confident in the relationship that

15:52

they had with not only President Biden with the

15:55

United States, they doubled their budget in the

15:57

defense, the first to go from one % to

15:59

two percent GDP, they acquire Counter -Strike

16:01

capabilities, they lifted the export

16:03

ban, they did a series of

16:05

things, and Korea, the trilateral,

16:07

did they do the bare minimum

16:10

and clear the line? No.

16:12

They stretch. And when they have

16:14

comfort with America, confidence in

16:16

America, they'll go farther, and when

16:18

they go farther, America's deterrence

16:20

against China is all that more

16:23

credible. And so to me,

16:25

the trilateral is in the security

16:27

interests of the three countries.

16:29

We've got to keep it in

16:31

the political interest of all

16:33

three countries. And I think it

16:35

will survive the political changes

16:38

that are in the three countries.

16:40

Will it thrive? That's on

16:42

the White House. That's on the

16:44

Kante here in Japan, and

16:46

that's on the Blue House in

16:48

Korea. I heard the president -elect

16:50

yesterday at his press conference,

16:53

and he lavished praise on Xi,

16:56

who he invited to

16:58

the inauguration, and talked

17:00

about what an amazing

17:03

person he is and

17:05

everything. Tell

17:08

me what that means.

17:10

How do the Japanese read

17:12

a comment like that?

17:14

How do the Koreans read

17:16

a comment like that?

17:18

How do the Australians read?

17:21

How do the players

17:23

in the region read a

17:25

comment like that? I

17:29

mean, first of all, they're all trying to

17:32

figure out their own relationship. And

17:36

I don't think it reads it

17:38

one way, David. One level, there's

17:42

an interest

17:44

in not creating

17:46

a conflict

17:49

unnecessary, but there's

17:51

also an interest in not

17:53

trying to get away with

17:55

what they're doing. Remember, they've

17:57

got to ban on all

17:59

agricultural products coming out of

18:01

coming out of They have have an ongoing

18:03

conflict in the South China

18:05

Sea with the Philippines. with the They're

18:07

caught spying constantly. and

18:09

doing things doing So at one level. It's

18:12

So one level, they appreciate

18:14

it. appreciate it. At another level, it's

18:16

unsettling. So I So I think they're trying to make

18:18

heads and tails of it. heads and tails

18:20

of it. Now, look, this gets gets to

18:22

another point I would try to see. try to is.

18:25

is. I don't think the Cold

18:27

War metaphor used is the

18:29

right one. China and -vis. we

18:31

did with the Soviet Union.

18:34

I don't and what we did

18:36

with I Soviet Union. I don't think

18:38

it's right. mean, of Union was

18:40

7 % of the world's GDP. 25%. Second

18:42

largest economy. economy. We have hundreds of

18:44

billion dollars worth of trade with

18:46

China. of We had with with the

18:48

Soviet Union. the Soviet Union. one thing

18:50

is on is on NATO versus Warsaw Pact was

18:52

a This is a naval

18:55

aerial. it's It's just a different

18:57

scenario. but I do

18:59

think the do think the deterrence is

19:01

is important i I don't know

19:03

how to make heads or to

19:05

make heads or

19:07

tails of Trump is I think. trying

19:10

to say I'm ready to is probably trying

19:12

to say I'm ready to have

19:14

a personal relationship with you, but there's

19:16

beyond the personal there are

19:19

- there are of the interests of the

19:21

country. and the is, where does that

19:23

pick up the the personal drops

19:26

off. not not going to pursue

19:28

that because you're under restraint under restraint

19:30

and you're being undue. I am ambassador, but

19:32

I do think, look. an ambassador,

19:34

but I I had my own kind of

19:36

evolution on this, David. of evolution on

19:39

this, think I do think that the

19:41

United States is a whole a whole, and

19:43

we are all we are all at fault. Gee

19:45

comes, President Gee. his leadership comes to power

19:47

in 2012. 2012. It's on the the back

19:49

of the financial meltdown in the

19:52

United States. in He makes a decision. He

19:54

makes a that we are

19:56

no longer strategic competitors. competitors.

19:58

We are are strategic ad- adversaries. We,

20:01

as the United States, both parties, both branches

20:03

of government. are slow to

20:05

appreciate that change. We

20:08

have come to that

20:10

change. and realize, I think President

20:12

Xi and his leadership made a lot

20:14

of mistakes that woke us up about

20:16

10 years ahead of schedule. Now are

20:18

we making the most of that time

20:20

now that we're awake? Some yes,

20:22

some no. Um, and, uh,

20:24

certain things like what we've

20:26

done in the alliance with Japan.

20:28

Yes. I'm the trilateral? Yes.

20:30

On our military industrial base and

20:32

the big five companies, zero.

20:34

progress. and being able to really

20:36

have the resources necessary to be

20:38

credible in our deterrence. So

20:41

I don't I think. having a

20:43

personal dialogue, as President Biden laid a

20:45

note, is value. It doesn't

20:47

replace being blind to what are your

20:49

interests. and where do

20:51

they come into conflict? You have a country

20:53

like China. that didn't take

20:55

700 million people out of poverty by themselves. They

20:57

were part of a system. Yet

20:59

property theft, economic espionage, is

21:01

a core part of their

21:04

economic strategy. And they are

21:06

trying to, through mercantilism, crush

21:08

other countries' economies. In

21:10

Chile, the one only steel plant

21:13

there closed 20 ,000 people lost a

21:15

job because China was dumping steel. That's

21:17

a huge opportunity for the United States to

21:19

counter that, but we have a system. And

21:22

I use this example. Tokyo Electron

21:24

makes semiconductor machines. ASML

21:27

in Netherlands makes semiconductor

21:29

machines. They innovate and

21:31

compete against each other.

21:34

Only one party. was stealing

21:36

ideas and that was China. Intellectual

21:38

property. You can't have an economic system,

21:40

where we play by rules and

21:42

they cheat. It just can't work. For

21:44

sure. And I'm not sure, the

21:46

question for the incoming administration is, do

21:48

you appreciate a rules

21:50

-bound system versus a system

21:52

based on theft. And

21:54

I don't how and I don't have an answer to

21:57

this, but I know. It is

21:59

incompatible. to to have

22:01

an integrated world system where one

22:03

country not only your

22:05

industries high and low. and low, steals,

22:07

mean mean Google China China

22:09

was caught stealing AI technology. you

22:11

How do you have an economic

22:13

system in a world where property

22:17

theft and espionage core.

22:20

replication where another one

22:22

is rules where it it applies to

22:24

everybody big and small. small?

22:26

We're We're going to take a short break break

22:28

be right back with more of the with

22:31

more of the ax files. I'm

22:33

CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy this

22:35

week on the I'm CNN

22:37

tech reporter CNN week economics

22:39

of Service, Buchwald.

22:41

writer walk us through what we going to

22:43

walk us through what we

22:45

might want to consider buying now,

22:47

before prices go up a Trump House.

22:49

House. he gets in the

22:52

Oval Office, he can put

22:54

tariffs into place. he can actually made

22:56

in China. Really anything that just

22:58

isn't produced in the U .S.

23:00

Follow CNN's terms of service wherever

23:02

you get your podcasts. anything

23:05

that just isn't

23:08

produced in the

23:10

US. Follow CNN's terms

23:13

of service wherever you

23:16

get your from the White

23:18

House and 2000, the the

23:20

last year, the Clinton

23:22

administration when China's admission into the

23:24

World Trade Organization became

23:26

a big a big and

23:29

the administration pushed for it. Was it a

23:31

mistake? push for it. know a mistake?

23:34

Was it a to let them in. the end

23:36

it a mistake at the end of

23:38

the Soviet Union and China emerging to try

23:40

to get them vested into the system?

23:43

I I think that's a 55, a 45, 60,

23:45

40 decision. I I don't think it was

23:47

a mistake. mistake. I think what a mistake is

23:49

when it was clear that they were not

23:51

living by the rules of being part of

23:53

the being part which they're not today, and they

23:55

weren't. they in the past. past, and they were

23:57

And they were considered a developing economy, which

23:59

a different set of rules. They

24:01

are a fully developed economy.

24:04

that allowing them to

24:06

A, not implement WTA rules.

24:08

B, B, violate them with

24:10

disregard and cheat. That was

24:13

the mistake. Getting them in. making

24:15

them vested interested. not that

24:17

they were going become a democracy, but

24:19

vested in a system that we had

24:22

structured, that wasn't a mistake. It

24:24

was staying with it when all

24:26

bets were off by them and they

24:28

weren't abiding by it and turning

24:30

a blind eye when it was clear.

24:33

They were not playing by the rules that were required

24:35

to be a member of the W2 and they still

24:37

don't. I should point out that

24:39

when we talked before about. ways

24:42

in which you gave Kurt

24:44

Campbell and others dyspepsia

24:46

include. Some of

24:48

your social media posts about

24:50

China You've been pretty

24:52

barbed. Yeah, let me go

24:54

back to the example like this.

24:58

and the Soviet Union and the Russian part, they

25:00

were brought in to the G8,

25:02

they had a desk at NATO. Yeah.

25:04

Putin made a decision. You

25:07

could argue it was the decision

25:09

to extend NATO to Georgia, membership to

25:11

NATO, to Ukraine, whatever. In 2007,

25:13

he tells you Munich the

25:16

defense strategy meeting. Uh,

25:18

why he is, this is all bets

25:20

are off, et cetera. We hold on past

25:22

that to the premise that he was

25:24

part of something when it was very clear

25:27

he said, uh -uh, That's the mistake.

25:29

Wait a second, does this have to do with your

25:31

social media posts about China? Nothing. I I just wanted

25:33

to get this thing off my chest and this is

25:35

therapy. Okay, Okay. is What do you to do say about

25:37

social media about China? Well, you

25:39

were, uh... no, you've

25:41

had, I don't have them in

25:43

front of me, but you had, you

25:45

wrote some really barbed social media

25:47

posts about China, I'm sure they weren't,

25:49

you didn't clear those with the

25:52

State Department. No. That

25:54

was kind of unconventional. Well,

25:56

it wasn't, but I will say this

25:58

is that one - of my colleagues

26:00

from the UK, not here, but

26:03

a diplomat from the UK who

26:05

said, you say that's what we

26:07

would like to say, but don't

26:09

say. It's like the bubble above

26:11

your head. And I did it

26:13

many times in defense of Japan.

26:16

where I thought Um China

26:19

was violating, clearly. like when

26:21

they banned fish from the Japanese

26:23

waters because of Fukushima, the nuclear site

26:26

here, that they were testing the

26:28

waters and were starting. to

26:30

disperse the water,

26:32

but China has... close

26:34

to 200, 300 boats in the

26:36

same waters. fishing the fish,

26:39

but ban Japanese. fishermen from

26:41

exporting the fish. I said, okay, I'm gonna call.

26:43

I'm gonna call this out. The hypocrisy,

26:45

they attacked the United States for starting

26:48

COVID. They the

26:50

United States Armed Forces for starting the fire in

26:52

Hawaii. And I said You

26:54

know, when the minister of defense

26:56

went missing, it was like Akatha

26:58

Christie's novel. Then there will be

27:00

none. There's where lies

27:02

might happen to be true, but

27:04

I was going to call out

27:07

the hypocrisy because China walks around

27:09

saying we're going to be good

27:11

neighbors. It's a win -win situation.

27:13

And everybody's jobs industries are getting

27:15

destroyed by subsidized companies. And there's

27:17

nothing good neighbor about having a

27:19

conflict on the land with India. with

27:22

islands with the Philippines and

27:24

Japan with economic coercion of

27:26

Australia. There's no good neighbor

27:28

policy here. And the hypocrisy

27:30

should be called out. I want

27:32

to ask you about, you mentioned that

27:34

you have a long history with the

27:36

Middle East. Your father was an immigrant

27:38

from Israel, and

27:40

you have a long history

27:42

with Israel, but you also You

27:45

and I were in the White House together,

27:47

had some spirited backs

27:50

and forths with particularly

27:52

Netanyahu. Tell me

27:54

where you think the

27:56

Middle East is

27:58

now after. all these,

28:00

you know, more than a

28:02

year of conflict in Gaza

28:04

after what we've seen in

28:07

Lebanon, after what we've seen

28:09

in. Yeah, I mean, you

28:11

know, this is a whole

28:13

new kind of, a whole

28:15

new scene here. Yeah, I

28:17

would say it is rich

28:19

with promise and is always

28:21

rich with peril. And when

28:23

I say promise, there's no

28:25

doubt. So I want to

28:27

be given where we're going.

28:30

Don't get diplomatic now. Well,

28:32

let me say I want

28:34

to clear my throat. So

28:36

you and I were accused

28:38

by Netanyahu back in 2009

28:40

of being self-loathing, self-hating, juice.

28:42

I did not need a

28:44

war to have my view

28:46

of. And I have a

28:48

distinction in his Netanyahu's book.

28:51

The only person he, he

28:53

doesn't remember his comment about

28:55

you, but he does. take

28:57

after me so I have

28:59

two distinct just now yeah

29:01

I'm sure you get you're

29:03

higher on the packing order

29:05

there Israel there's a story

29:07

the I think in the

29:09

post today about Hamas basically

29:12

a lot of members of

29:14

the Palestinian people in Gaza

29:16

said you started a war

29:18

that you didn't have and

29:20

the head of the the

29:22

mosque said this is a

29:24

horrendous mistake Hezbollah basically also

29:26

sued for peace Hamas god-willing

29:28

the hostages will be home

29:30

and from Gaza and the

29:32

starting of rebuilding people's lives

29:35

in Gaza can start. Iran

29:37

is clearly vulnerable. Look, there

29:39

is a opportunity both with

29:41

Iran, with Israel and the

29:43

Gulf countries, not just Bahrain,

29:45

not just UAE, but also

29:47

possibly one day Saudi Arabia,

29:49

to do something significant. Will,

29:51

and this is where I'm

29:53

going to get in trouble,

29:56

will the of Israel in

29:58

this moment over should

30:00

shoot the opportunities of this

30:02

moment. What I mean by that? If

30:04

you look at history, 1967 was

30:06

an incredible war where Israel really

30:09

succeeded. They drank

30:11

the Kool -Aid to the point that they

30:13

got arrogant. and they in 1973, they

30:15

had a war where they nearly

30:17

lost. This

30:19

is an opportunity.

30:21

and the question

30:23

for the Trump administration, because

30:26

they're going to pick up the baton here. is

30:28

how do you make sure?

30:30

that your ally How

30:33

do you contain that hubris? Yes. and

30:35

makes the most of this and is gracious

30:38

in victory? because if it's

30:40

not. it will become

30:42

more perilous and

30:44

the Mideas can. do

30:47

great things and it can

30:49

actually really disappoint you And so

30:52

I look at it and I say, I I

30:54

know what I would do. that

30:57

said it's

31:00

to require American leadership. and

31:03

as I like to remind China

31:06

can't do it, Russia clearly can't do it,

31:08

Europe can't do it. That's why United States

31:10

is so important, not just because there's a

31:12

relationship with Israel. It is the only trusted

31:14

party that can actually do this. And there's

31:16

a real opportunity. not

31:18

by just land, but from a security

31:20

standpoint. and from an

31:22

integration standpoint. change the

31:24

Middle East to the better. if

31:27

you look at the history of Israel's

31:29

peace process. They have tried three things

31:31

over the last 40 years. one

31:33

negotiated peace agreements with Egypt,

31:35

Jordan and the Gulf countries. each

31:38

one of those Gulf countries. And

31:40

each one of Egypt and Jordan are helping

31:42

Israel We'll try to figure out how to. be

31:45

integrated into the region. Second

31:47

process was

31:49

self deciding to abandon both

31:52

Lebanon and Gaza and you

31:54

got Hezbollah Hamas failure on

31:56

that front. The other was

31:58

a unilateral Divorce

32:00

from the the West you have conflict there

32:02

Only one of one of three

32:04

strategies has ever worked, which

32:06

is negotiating with partners, with partners a

32:08

they can become partners. partners.

32:11

Egypt is playing a central role

32:13

in getting role in getting Israeli Jordan has played

32:15

his central role in his key role.

32:17

in a key role security. both in

32:19

the West Bank. in the West areas. other

32:22

areas in the the missiles dealing with with

32:24

Iran. The Gulf countries others, have played

32:26

a key role for Israel

32:28

the actual negotiating has

32:30

worked worked Israel's favor, the

32:32

unilateral approach to both Gaza and

32:35

Lebanon, the unilateral approach to

32:37

the West to the West Bank has up

32:39

with terrorism. It

32:41

is very very painful. And anyway, I want to

32:43

I want to get yelled at

32:45

afterwards don't want to get yelled that

32:47

afterwards, is I understand that

32:49

Israel can can say... We We

32:51

tried peace and what we got

32:54

was bombs on dishing off in

32:56

Tel Aviv. I can understand the

32:58

frustration. the frustration, the we offered them

33:00

something at Camp something Clinton. They

33:02

walked away that give Clinton. They

33:04

I can understand. give him a we

33:06

tried this. understand, like we

33:08

tried this. That said, you've You've

33:10

also tried something else. else, which is is

33:12

unilateral and you end up with up with

33:15

Only partners can give you

33:17

what you what you, ever wanted

33:19

in the founding the founding five. like

33:21

my father. my which

33:23

was which was peace, integration,

33:26

an opportunity. And it is

33:28

a tough road, but it is a better road. is

33:30

a better road. So I I want

33:32

to ask you about the ancillary

33:34

impact of the the

33:36

Israeli strategy over the last 14

33:38

months. And and to ask it.

33:40

to ask it. in the context

33:43

of something that happened to

33:45

you, you have a home

33:47

in Michigan, a home spray Someone

33:49

on that. Nazi and it's a

33:51

reflection of. of

33:53

a wave of anti of anti-Semitism. At

33:55

first of all, what was your

33:57

reaction when you - when you...

34:00

heard that. secondly, what you what do

34:02

you make of this rising tide

34:04

of anti and how

34:06

how much has it been fueled by

34:08

this? by this? Well, you're asking

34:10

me, well, I'm in Tokyo, in one

34:12

the one that, you know, for

34:14

the you know, for the last three

34:16

years is is anti-Semitic I don't feel any

34:18

of that, but let me say, that. But let of

34:20

two minds, David, not one. David,

34:22

not one. I don't know who who

34:25

I have a guess. know. some neighbor went

34:27

over in Michigan and... over

34:29

it so nobody would see

34:31

that would see that Nazism and

34:33

the and the hate. So I can, I kind of

34:35

look at that. at that and say

34:37

that is say, that is the people

34:39

I know. thing, and you know

34:41

this from my The

34:43

second thing, and you know this from

34:46

my for Congress, there was ran for Congress. there

34:49

was about money changes, said

34:51

then about money said et cetera.

34:53

I believe And I said then, and

34:55

I believe then having campaigned around the

34:57

district and it's Jewish Jewish community

34:59

was less than less than 1% heavily

35:01

Catholic district, Eastern European Catholic.

35:03

One, and I said, and I said the people

35:06

met the people of Chicago. I've met them on

35:08

the front stoop, at their them at their L Good

35:10

people that know right from wrong, good from

35:12

bad, and they're gonna make the right judgment.

35:14

I have confidence. to make the right think I have things

35:16

I would say to you is, of the

35:18

things I would say you is existed. always

35:21

existed. Is it rising? Yes. but it

35:23

but it always existed. The question is, does it

35:25

have a permission slip? slip. to be

35:28

be public. kind of kind

35:30

of implicit rather than explicit

35:33

there has been a

35:35

doubt a doubt. slip given

35:37

permission slip given for to no to

35:39

no longer be upon upon.

35:42

be have a an but to be

35:44

have and I go an expression and

35:46

i go back permissions slip

35:48

from who is it because there are some

35:50

would say from from would say from

35:52

some would would say from the right. some

35:54

I think there's a lot I

35:57

think it's not limited to a person

35:59

or or one idiot. You see a lot of

36:01

lot of young people whose

36:03

views have been influenced by

36:05

this war. war and who and

36:07

who have merged the idea

36:09

of Judaism and Zionism of policies

36:12

with Israel, with Israel

36:14

large and who who have

36:16

been very vocal these

36:18

on sometimes on these

36:21

on campuses, a

36:23

thing. you know, David, a thing, the

36:25

thing, you know, I understand that. Or

36:27

don't and do do and don't. but

36:29

nobody seems to call about war

36:32

crimes and genocide. mean, just as

36:34

now I'm saying just as now I'm saying is

36:36

President Assad killed a half a

36:38

million of his own citizens, half a million

36:40

of his own Nobody's talked about genocide

36:42

for Assad. nobody's talked about genocide for Assad so genocide

36:44

so equally or it's only genocide.

36:46

Why? Because some people are from

36:48

European descent. don't get are The second

36:51

thing is, descent I

36:53

cases of rape. is there was

36:55

cases of rape on October 7 cases

36:57

of Not just cases

36:59

massive of rape

37:01

of rape, women's genital, rape,

37:03

mutilation. Okay, yeah, mutilation,

37:05

fetuses cut out a woman.

37:08

Now, were were cheered. Israel,

37:10

there was a there was

37:12

a discovery. of possible of possible

37:14

rape at a prison legal

37:16

system system of the after after those

37:18

people and they're under arrest. under

37:20

arrest. point is, look, is,

37:23

look, the war The war has brought up a

37:25

lot of stuff. A A lot

37:27

of it is also uninformed and a

37:29

a lot of it is based on certain

37:31

views of of power power distribution

37:33

and just sometimes right but

37:35

but massively wrong and the I

37:37

don't and I and I and

37:39

the idea that invaded, as

37:42

I like to say I a country I'm

37:44

been a ceasefire, the I like to say,

37:46

I was for, I'm for going The one

37:48

on October 6th was going great. There's been

37:50

five since since 2007. Every one of them violated

37:52

by Hamas. I'm sorry, and I find a

37:54

little weird that now they want a permanent

37:56

ceasefire. Well, what's permanent? Does that mean no

37:59

raping? no raping? Does mean that you don't

38:01

get to kill a child in front of a parent? kill

38:03

a that permanent in front of a have

38:05

been Is that all violated one

38:07

party There have ,200 people are killed. all

38:09

violated one party of like conflicted. are killed.

38:11

I know, so I'm here's what I

38:14

would say to you. You have

38:16

the same conflict, David. what

38:18

I would you have the same have the

38:20

same me answer, let me speak

38:22

for myself here. As long as

38:24

I'm here, let me speak for myself.

38:27

let me speak for myself. I was devastated by

38:29

what happened on October

38:31

7th. It was everything that

38:33

you it was everything that you the

38:35

Israelis have every right

38:37

to every right to and protect

38:39

their, protect protect their citizens. citizens.

38:41

But I also, when you

38:43

say say have watched their

38:45

children killed in front of

38:47

them, that is a

38:50

daily occurrence in Gaza. a daily

38:52

doubt. in I a doubt. And I

38:54

am, it's very it's Let

38:56

me just make my final

38:58

point. let me think it's

39:00

very, my final is appropriate to

39:02

grieve to grieve for the victims victims

39:04

of October and still and able

39:06

be able to cry

39:08

for the children of Gaza.

39:11

happened on October What happened on

39:13

October give doesn't give Israel a permission

39:15

slip to act correctly and to the ethics

39:17

and the code of ethics. code of ethics

39:19

of the Israeli IDF. I will say to you

39:21

and say to you to the what

39:23

has happened to the Palestinian people,

39:25

the Palestinian people the the Gaza the the

39:27

West Bank deserve a a better future

39:30

than what their leadership has given them.

39:32

them and Hamas and Hamas started

39:34

a process. Palestinians today say the

39:36

religious leaders religious leaders of Gaza Strip,

39:38

started started something that only they

39:40

couldn't finish that they

39:42

brought a war on the people. Without

39:44

a doubt. But Israel does not get

39:47

a permission slip slip to violate

39:49

their codes. There's a

39:51

reason they said they have a higher

39:53

moral code in the no thing that ever There

39:55

is no thing that acceptable it's

39:57

not acceptable on happened on October 7th that

39:59

gives of permission to break that code. We're

40:03

going to take a short break and we'll be right

40:05

back with more of the Axe files. And

40:16

now back to the show. Let

40:22

me, uh, take a hard shift here,

40:25

uh, and ask you, uh, you are

40:27

I I mean, we we met when

40:29

I was a reporter, young reporter at

40:31

the Chicago trick and Trig and both

40:33

young once David. you were, uh, uh, were,

40:35

you were younger than me. And, uh,

40:37

you, uh, uh, you

40:39

were involved in a political

40:41

campaign at that time that

40:43

you wanted me to write

40:45

about, you have fundamentally been

40:48

immersed in American politics for

40:50

40 years. And

40:52

how hard was it to sit

40:54

out over there in Japan and

40:56

watch this race? Or were you

40:58

grateful to be able to sit

41:01

in Japan and watch this race?

41:03

It was It

41:05

was maddening. Um, no,

41:07

I look, there was a part of me, I will

41:09

say that I'm glad. Oh, thank God. On the other

41:12

hand, it was It

41:15

was 98 % 2 %

41:17

thank God I'm over here.

41:19

Look, I'm coming home. It's

41:22

maddening because there are certain things

41:24

having been involved President

41:26

Clinton's elections. President Obama's, but my

41:28

own, but also former chair

41:30

of the Democratic Congressional Committee. You

41:32

look at things and you're

41:34

like, this is self -evident, And you

41:37

make six, seven, eight calls just to

41:39

try to get one point. And You

41:41

know, and sometimes you succeed a lot

41:43

of times you didn't and so it

41:45

was very frustrating. It was immensely, because

41:48

the stakes are high. Could that race

41:50

have been won? Well, the

41:52

answer I would say is, Well,

41:54

yes, because of how close it was, there's no doubt it

41:56

could have been one. I say that

41:58

no doubt. It's clear

42:01

clear a A different race, Harris, rather

42:03

Harris rather than running behind the

42:05

congressional would have run ahead of

42:07

the ahead of the Democratic candidates and you

42:09

probably have a senator in

42:11

pennsylvania today have senator in Pennsylvania a

42:13

minimum a senator how close it was.

42:16

Given how close it was, there's, I would say, I

42:18

don't want to say no doubt, no but

42:20

it's more, it's yes, it could have been one. been

42:22

one. And Um, and definitely you could

42:24

have improved the chances that Democrats would

42:26

have the would have the House and be, and

42:28

the would be tighter. You've

42:30

been prolific in

42:33

end-of-year of year. on all

42:35

manner of subject, but

42:37

all manner of subject, on but. but. this on

42:40

this subject of

42:42

the you know, we have

42:44

a lot of And, you know, we

42:46

have a lot of conversations offline. know,

42:48

we're sort of a know we're

42:50

sort of Well, don't worry The are listening

42:52

to our conversations to our

42:55

Well, maybe we'll learn some. Well,

42:57

maybe we'll learn some. summarize you the the arguments that

42:59

you've have a you have a piece in

43:01

this morning. Post wake up

43:03

every morning up the major publications

43:06

of America to see where

43:08

you have landed another piece.

43:10

see where you have landed I have a

43:12

lot to say, well I have a lot to say

43:14

so now that yeah so David here's so as you've you and

43:16

I've talked talked about this, a one when 70%

43:18

of the of the country says in

43:20

the wrong direction, the bones of

43:22

the election are there. are there on

43:24

the other hand, Donald Trump ran a

43:26

race against the Kamala Harris of

43:29

2020, not the Kamala Harris of 2024.

43:31

They had they obligation obligation to change become

43:33

the agent. She could could by the

43:35

nature of her biography, been the change

43:37

agent. and she didn't she campaign

43:39

did The campaign did not they that. They

43:41

did it in the beginning and they

43:43

walked away from that. hard to be isn't it hard

43:45

be a change agent when when you're vice of

43:47

the organization? of the want to fire. people want to

43:50

yeah, but yeah well yeah Trump was the guy

43:52

that - was the guy that I played a a role

43:54

in January 6th it became something else. People had

43:56

a had a view of his tenure and then all of a sudden

43:58

of a sudden they had a positive view. I

44:00

mean, that's the card you have and you got

44:02

to make that card work. No, it's not

44:04

a fate complete. And And clearly, when she pulled

44:06

ahead of them, that in

44:08

the campaign, was clearly, could have

44:10

been continuity or could have been

44:12

change. That was a choice the

44:15

campaign had to navigate to become

44:17

the change agent. I mean, as

44:19

you and I have talked about, you know. the future

44:21

begins today. She could have

44:23

been owning that tomorrow. Ben,

44:25

I think this election. is

44:28

about its place in history. And

44:30

I use the three seminal moments,

44:32

the Iraq war built on a

44:34

lie, a financial meltdown built on

44:36

liar loans. and then our

44:39

decision when the establishment was hated. years

44:41

later in COVID, the voice

44:43

of the establishment and embrace the

44:45

establishment and that has destroyed

44:48

the party. I think

44:50

And because in

44:52

the last 20 years. the

44:54

elite in the establishment have lost any credibility

44:57

with the American public not only have

44:59

they deceived them into some of the two

45:01

worst things were livelihoods and lives were

45:03

lost. They have not owned

45:05

it. and they have not once said

45:07

they're sorry and have not anybody in

45:09

all of those classes gone to jail

45:11

for their failures and they have been

45:13

massive. And I think the public and

45:16

Donald Trump in his rhetoric. I

45:18

am your vengeance, I I am your anger. he

45:21

I'm instrument he understands this moment

45:23

of legitimate rage and people are

45:25

not only angry at the system

45:27

today they're angry that it's stacked

45:29

against their kids and we as

45:31

a party who fight

45:34

for people have lost that voice.

45:36

And not only that voice,

45:38

that interest. then, Now

45:40

the good news In

45:42

this period of time, both 0608,

45:44

2018, some lessons out of 2022,

45:46

but definitely out of this. We

45:49

can, both through message and messenger get

45:51

out of this. And I

45:53

think the land is to,

45:56

And I believe this rather than as I say in

45:58

this piece today in the public. rather than than drain

46:01

the swamp, he's going to be swimming

46:03

in it and that swamp filled with

46:05

filled with corruption, with hey filled with

46:07

the big interest, powerful interest, taking

46:09

their spoils off the table. the table

46:11

is where our goal is. That is where we

46:13

find our voice our our footing again. And there

46:15

will be ample examples as there was in

46:17

the campaign. as make the most

46:19

of being the voice for those who

46:22

are getting the host here. are getting the

46:24

me, I mean. me I I don't

46:26

think it's that hard. it's that hard when You

46:28

David, you have multiple places,

46:30

I have multiple places, multiple places. Okay,

46:32

we have. We have families that can't buy a

46:34

single home. a single We have a system

46:36

where people are buying where people are This is

46:38

crazy. This is Young families want to start

46:40

something, they can't get a home. get

46:43

a can't save save for a education.

46:45

You can't save for your

46:47

retirement. retirement. illness away. We

46:49

can't be that voice. that voice.

46:51

for For those who are just trying

46:53

to get a scrap of the the

46:55

American is who we are who think are.

46:57

And I think... Let me say one other

46:59

thing thing. I'm I'mma get this off this off.

47:01

If you have you have a Cup, and it

47:03

says an NPR logo, in in

47:05

the corner, be be quiet. listen,

47:07

you have you have something to learn.

47:09

Stop telling people how to live their lives. live their

47:12

lives. Yeah, no, I feel I feel very

47:14

strongly about that. I'll get back to that

47:16

in a second. that in a second. my my

47:18

mind... I think your analysis

47:20

is is good,

47:23

but incomplete because this

47:25

trend has gone

47:27

back has gone back farther than the war.

47:29

years of war fought by

47:31

1 % of the people. fought

47:33

by sold on people, that

47:35

wasn't true on something a cost

47:38

of, you know, over

47:40

a trillion dollars. of, you is

47:42

certainly one a that

47:44

the financial crisis without is

47:46

certainly one thing. doubt and you and I were

47:48

there, I were and we were engaged in

47:50

the debates about. about that

47:52

at the time and I time, and

47:55

I think we both felt

47:57

strongly that some form of accountability

47:59

was necessary. The American dream dissipating

48:01

and the unaccountability, yes it goes

48:03

farther than those, but there's no

48:05

doubt than where people felt. Those

48:07

who are major catastrophic events. I

48:10

think the whole century has been

48:12

one dislocating event for, but what

48:14

I'm saying is, and I want

48:16

to say this, because I don't

48:19

know that you and I agree

48:21

on this, your globalization has had

48:23

a great and positive effect for

48:25

some. And it has been, it

48:27

has gutted some communities. Over time,

48:30

you know, certainly in the 80s

48:32

and 90s, that was. The case

48:34

automation, which is, you know, has

48:36

been, has had a dramatic impact

48:38

and we're going to see a

48:41

turbocharged now with AI. It's going

48:43

to move right up the chain

48:45

from the blue collar workers to

48:47

white collar workers. That's been very

48:49

dislocating. The churning of technology generally

48:52

has been including social media, very

48:54

dislocating, but the biggest thing. So,

48:56

so some of that. And you

48:58

were there in the White House

49:01

for some of that. You know,

49:03

no doubt that the 90s were

49:05

a decade of prosperity, but the

49:07

prosperity, but there also were an

49:09

uneven impacts of some of the

49:12

liberalization of trade and so on.

49:14

David, here's what I would say

49:16

100% agree with that actually. It's

49:18

not that we disagree. And I

49:20

highlight two or three COVID. the

49:23

war and the financial meltdown. There

49:25

is no doubt the continuity and

49:27

globalization, the risk was not equally

49:29

shared and the opportunity was not

49:32

equally shared. And telling people, well,

49:34

here's your trade certificate and go

49:36

figure out how to get yourself

49:38

trained. It was absolutely wrong. There's

49:40

opportunity, but it's not equal or

49:43

level, and there was risk also

49:45

not leveled. And we didn't do

49:47

the type of... We gave a

49:49

a permission slip

49:51

we were we were

49:54

passive when it

49:56

came to investing

49:58

in America and Americans.

50:00

And And that

50:02

means more people

50:05

able to compete

50:07

and win in

50:09

that globalization. I mean,

50:11

the common common element of all of

50:13

the things that you're describing and

50:15

what I just what raw I just described. There's

50:18

a winners and losers they tend

50:20

to be the same people. they tend to

50:22

be the same people. No doubt it. it. The

50:24

other thing is, I just want to

50:26

say this because I want to

50:28

return to you for a second, because I

50:30

know, your own path here. you for a

50:32

second, you know, your own path here.

50:35

My critique of the Democratic

50:37

Party is that it's become

50:39

a become a college-educated party, still identifies

50:41

as the party of working

50:43

people, of still trying to

50:46

do stuff to help working

50:48

people, working people but but the come

50:50

as missionaries and anthropologists and

50:52

we say, we are are here

50:54

to help you become more

50:56

like us. us. And the message the

50:58

message is one of unintended

51:01

but very clear you do What

51:03

you do is less important what

51:05

we do. Now Now, these are

51:07

people who work their asses

51:09

off, growing things, making things,

51:11

shipping things, caring for people.

51:13

They're the people we call

51:15

essential workers in in. in a

51:17

pandemic. we then we forget about

51:19

him They make the

51:22

country go. They deserve respect. I

51:24

think one of the mistakes Joe Biden made

51:26

is he was elected as Joe from Scranton

51:29

as Joe from thought he because

51:31

and respect them he did

51:33

them with respect. and And

51:35

he did a lot of things as president to

51:37

help. a lot of things

51:39

as president help working people, to

51:41

help working he sort of spoke

51:43

like of spoke like you you're

51:45

limited because you're still an

51:47

ambassador there an more like Joe

51:50

from Washington than Joe from

51:52

Scranton as from Let me as president.

51:54

Let me say, it is it always about

51:56

me so let me say one

51:58

thing me say one thing. Like said if I got 40. years

52:00

of experience. Yeah, but you you

52:02

make this point we have a We

52:04

have a what we between what we

52:06

think we are talk how we talk and

52:08

what we advocate. and

52:11

unfortunately highly educated or educated, to

52:13

as I like to

52:15

say, highly educated, highly caffeinated

52:17

and undersized people have shut

52:19

out everybody else's voices. everybody they

52:21

need to sit and listen a little. and

52:23

And the fact is when it comes to is

52:25

when it comes to middle class, working

52:28

class that are trying to get their

52:30

children a better tomorrow. a better tomorrow.

52:32

We talk about, you get you get...

52:34

Well, that's not the only ticket to

52:36

the not the only ticket

52:38

make it about reflecting And we make it

52:40

about reflecting ourselves more than reflecting them. used

52:42

to Clinton used to say when he said

52:44

in the snows of New Hampshire, the hits

52:46

hits on me are nothing like the hits

52:48

your kids are gonna take if we

52:50

don't turn this country around. if we don't turn this country

52:52

things I was proud to do things I was

52:54

proud to was I was mayor. Two two

52:57

things. first city to make free

52:59

first city to make free community

53:01

college accessible. kids from the to kids

53:03

from the city of Chicago. Three. You got a B average,

53:05

you get books, got to be average, you

53:08

get books, tuition, and transportation. which

53:10

The second thing. I wrote, as you

53:12

as we about my writing, you talked about

53:15

my writing back in June. succeed.

53:17

We hired plan, succeed. and hundreds

53:20

hundreds and hundreds of and careers, careers

53:22

start a freshman year. year.

53:24

To To get your high school diploma,

53:26

you had to show a letter of acceptance

53:28

from a college, from a or branch of the

53:30

Armed Forces. college, or branch of the education. or

53:33

vocational a priority We didn't took

53:35

but everybody had something next

53:37

after graduation next after the high

53:39

school the high and career preparation and

53:42

than just a diploma. rather

53:44

than And I think the way to make

53:46

sure people have a chance, whether that's a.

53:48

whether that's a carpenter, a plumber,

53:50

a Navy graduate, graduate, a

53:53

graduate. a a community

53:55

college, IT worker, a or a college

53:57

graduate. got to have to have

53:59

an education. that trains them and prepares

54:01

them for tomorrow. And the party

54:03

put an emphasis only on one

54:05

of those four roads. And that's

54:07

mistake. I agree that's, I agree

54:09

that. And Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania,

54:11

among others, has been quite good

54:13

on that. So your name came

54:16

up as a potential leader for

54:18

the Democratic National Committee. I think

54:20

I may have been one of

54:22

those who dropped it. Yeah, you

54:24

act like you act like this

54:26

is immaculate conception acts or I

54:28

yeah, yeah, but You know, I

54:30

mean, I don't think I'm just

54:32

guessing but I you're not going

54:34

to run for Democratic National Committee

54:36

chair But I know you I

54:38

know that you are not going

54:40

to go fish for the rest

54:42

of your life and you're not

54:44

going to sit still and you're

54:46

not going to not want to

54:48

be in the action. And frankly,

54:50

you're not going to want to

54:53

be not relevant to the action.

54:55

So a number of things have

54:57

been brought up. One of them

54:59

is the possibility of running for

55:01

the United States Senate in Illinois.

55:03

One of them is if the

55:05

governor doesn't run running for governor.

55:07

One of them has been... come

55:09

back and run for mayor mayor

55:11

right now is not doing is

55:13

not very popular in the city

55:15

like what are you thinking all

55:17

above and none of the above

55:19

and you know look I think

55:21

the first thing I know is

55:23

I've been away for three years

55:25

doing my job here I've learned

55:27

a part of the world that

55:30

I didn't know have something to

55:32

contribute to that I'm gonna come

55:34

back and come home to Chicago

55:36

and spend time retalking to people

55:38

connecting. I've stayed in touch with

55:40

people over three years, not like

55:42

I went radio silent. And see

55:44

what I think is the possibility.

55:46

You know this David, I love

55:48

public service. And I'm hoping there's

55:50

another role and it doesn't have

55:52

to. I have had both appointed

55:54

positions and electoral positions. And I've

55:56

and there's more

55:58

than one way

56:00

or one or one half

56:02

in service. service. not sure,

56:04

that's the honest answer, and

56:06

I'm gonna take an assessment take an

56:09

assessment of where I can I can make the

56:11

biggest difference and whether whether it's electoral office

56:13

that may be a path. be a path,

56:15

and it it may not know. That's

56:17

the I don't know, But the

56:19

honest answer. way, another, you're or another, you're

56:21

not done No, and I think this, the

56:23

other thing is, and it's not,

56:25

I just, I just. I do know having

56:27

gone gone home for Thanksgiving, being

56:30

family back in Chicago. in Chicago.

56:32

The Democrats are beaten

56:35

are as a up. of it were

56:37

beaten up and we of their work, when I

56:39

beating up not we have, we were

56:41

here when I became, I'm not saying

56:43

it's perfect analogy, but. then Nancy

56:45

leader Pelosi, called me to Pelosi

56:47

over me to take

56:49

over the Democratic Congressional We

56:51

had lost committee, 2002,

56:53

and 2004. and 2004. We're in in

56:56

that place there is a path. You

56:58

There is a path. You gotta have the

57:00

discipline to see that path. that

57:02

want to want to contribute. to

57:05

building not only the only the

57:07

party to doing what I think what

57:09

I think is important in politics to

57:11

to then do what do what we think needs

57:13

to be done from a public policy

57:15

position. to build a

57:17

country with more opportunity for others. I

57:20

just want to, just to put

57:22

a to put a... a coda on what on what

57:25

you just said, I I think. you

57:27

that, I agree with you has surrounded

57:29

know, Trump has surrounded himself with

57:31

plutocrats. Listen, if he and peace

57:33

and prosperity lifts lifts people's incomes

57:35

and their prospects and so

57:37

on, more power to them. good

57:40

for him. him. I am I am

57:42

not rooting for catastrophe here, you

57:44

but at some of the at some of

57:46

the appointments that he's made and

57:48

some of the things that

57:50

he's said and I do I do

57:52

worry about and yeah, direction of things.

57:54

a high there may be a

57:56

high likelihood that that opportunity will

57:58

arise. arise that, that. surrounded of

58:00

by plutocrats, you know, which doesn't

58:02

suggest that the people who elected

58:04

them are going to come out

58:07

on top in this deal, but out

58:09

on advice to deal. I

58:11

think it's not to Democrats, and

58:14

I yours, not a part a departure

58:16

from yours a the most

58:18

important question. is the most important

58:21

have so many people

58:23

in this country become

58:25

so jaundiced. jaundiced institutions so jaundiced

58:28

about elites so jaundiced about

58:30

government what has driven

58:32

people away and made

58:34

them believe them they are

58:36

they are that the system

58:38

is fundamentally corrupt and

58:41

rigged against them rigged what

58:43

them It is guess what it is

58:45

well I think that. I think that

58:47

There needs to to be some

58:50

humility and introspection here. I

58:52

hope that I hope that that, I hope that is part

58:54

of of the process that follows. Since

58:56

humility is one of my strong

58:58

suits. my exactly. You're gonna be the, how

59:01

can we go wrong with be

59:03

the, how can coach? with Rahm Emanuelist a

59:05

more, you know, three years here

59:07

in Japan, I'm more, you know, three years

59:09

here in the thing is brother.

59:11

Look, the thing is we have as a party

59:13

as a party the I think the

59:15

country is better served when you

59:17

have two parties in ideological, I would I

59:20

would say battle but offer different visions

59:22

or capacities. or We owe it

59:24

to ourselves to understand. how

59:26

we lost. how we lost. We

59:28

have a vision of have a vision of

59:30

ourselves, let me say it this way. We have

59:32

a vision of of that the American people

59:34

do not have. people do not

59:37

have. And Yeah, they're having problems.

59:39

right? have a point. Right,

59:41

we have We see

59:43

ourselves as advocates for the good

59:45

for, you know, uh, helping people,

59:47

et cetera, helping people, fighting for those

59:49

who have no voice who have no us.

59:51

And they see us, and and data is is

59:53

pretty clear captured by a far

59:56

left that is actually socially economically

59:58

and culturally. and culturally. and

1:00:00

distinct and and arrogant them.

1:00:02

about how to how to live their lives.

1:00:04

And I think. a There's a dissonance

1:00:06

between how we see ourselves and how

1:00:08

the American public sees us. I

1:00:10

had a young a young on this. on

1:00:13

this. podcast a few weeks

1:00:15

ago, Marie Camp Perez from

1:00:17

Washington, probably the most endangered

1:00:19

Democrat in the country. ended

1:00:21

up out in the ticket by

1:00:24

seven points and the a

1:00:26

district as Trump points it for

1:00:28

the third straight time. as Trump

1:00:30

she said, straight time. And she

1:00:32

said, don't come us what

1:00:34

we need. need. Don't come come

1:00:37

and tell us what we

1:00:39

need. Come and, and, and, know, come

1:00:41

with, you know, give know, give

1:00:43

us the respect of of dialogue

1:00:45

listening and and don't come into,

1:00:48

this is akin to what

1:00:50

to what Anyway, gotta go. But

1:00:53

to go, but I'm, you know, one thing

1:00:55

that I look forward to in to

1:00:57

in having you back back stateside.

1:00:59

only so I don't have

1:01:02

to constantly. have to up what

1:01:04

time it is in Tokyo time it is

1:01:06

in Tokyo, I call you. As somebody

1:01:08

who has received has call at 2

1:01:10

a .m. and then I get a

1:01:12

text, and was a I call. I look

1:01:14

forward to was a buck call. I look forward to it

1:01:17

I'm tired of having your buck

1:01:19

call me at 2 a .m. me so

1:01:21

I'm looking okay? So I'm looking for this ax. Yes. Yeah.

1:01:23

put my phone in another pocket

1:01:25

in any case. case. good to be to

1:01:27

have you on the last episode.

1:01:29

last episode of acts files. Of Files. acts files see

1:01:31

you when you get home. Happy

1:01:33

and home. Year. Thank you, same

1:01:35

to you. year. Thank you. Same to

1:01:38

you. As I say goodbye for now I

1:01:40

want to thank the As I

1:01:42

say goodbye for now, I want

1:01:44

to thank the many team responsible

1:01:46

for so many of these

1:01:48

episodes. producer producer and indispensable chief researcher

1:01:50

Miriam Annenberg. Engineer Jeff Fox and producer Saralina Barry

1:01:53

and Hannah McDonald. I also I also want

1:01:55

to acknowledge Lauren Mench, who was who

1:01:57

the superb executive producer of of the

1:01:59

Ax files. on CNN during our television years. Profound

1:02:01

thanks to the University of Chicago

1:02:03

Institute of Politics of this podcast

1:02:05

was born, and to CNN to CNN

1:02:08

partnering with us all these years. Finally,

1:02:10

and and most important, I want to

1:02:12

thank thank listeners for joining me

1:02:14

on this journey, this and I'm dedicating

1:02:16

this episode to one of the

1:02:18

most faithful, the Bob Bob is a

1:02:21

dear friend from Chicago who's never

1:02:23

missed an episode. Now he's dealing with

1:02:25

some serious health challenges, and

1:02:27

I wanted to take this take to wish him

1:02:29

the very to him Happy best. Happy all,

1:02:31

and all, hope to see you

1:02:33

down the road. the road.

1:02:35

Thank you for listening to The Axe

1:02:38

you for listening to by the brought

1:02:40

to you by the Institute of

1:02:42

Politics at the University of Chicago

1:02:44

and CNN The The executive producer

1:02:46

of the show is Fender

1:02:48

Annenberg. The show This show

1:02:50

is also produced by Serelina Barry,

1:02:52

Jeff and and Hannah Grace McDonald.

1:02:55

and special thanks to our

1:02:57

partners our partners at CNN, including

1:02:59

Steve Licktai For more programming

1:03:01

from more visit from

1:03:03

the IOP, visit .edu. Welcome

1:03:24

to Times Square, Anderson Cooper Andy

1:03:26

Cohen are back together together

1:03:28

the ring in the New Year. That's none

1:03:31

of my run! And anything could happen.

1:03:33

Oh my gosh, so much. That's perfect

1:03:35

TV. New Year's Eve Live starts at

1:03:37

8 on CNN.