0:00

What do President Trump's pro- crypto

0:02

initiatives mean to the Bitcoin

0:04

and blockchain world? Today we

0:07

invite William Quigley co-founder of

0:09

Tether and the Wax blockchain

0:11

to the show to discuss

0:13

the state of wax, NFTs,

0:15

meme coins, Bitcoin, Ethereum, and

0:17

crypto regulation. You'll be surprised

0:19

at his price expectations for

0:21

end-of-year Bitcoin and his take

0:24

on Ethereum will have you saying,

0:26

hmm. That's what people say when they

0:28

meet us face to face. It's a

0:30

look of confusion, followed by a prolonged...

0:33

Hmm... Well, the groundhog has seen

0:35

his shadow and so have we.

0:38

So it's six more weeks of

0:40

winter and an upcoming Kansas City

0:43

Chiefs Super Bowl 3-pete victory on

0:45

episode number 763 of The

0:47

Bad Crypto Podcast. Who's

0:58

bad? That's right.

1:00

I said it.

1:03

The chief's going

1:05

in for their...

1:08

That's right. I

1:10

said it. The

1:13

chief's going in

1:16

for their third

1:18

Super Bowl win in a row

1:20

right here. Right here. Bad Cryptopia

1:22

Republic place that we live in

1:24

here because if not I'm gonna

1:26

have to live with Tears, and

1:28

I don't I don't want that

1:30

You know I talked I talked

1:32

to the missus over there and

1:35

I said really if we lose

1:37

is it you gotta is it

1:39

gonna be that painful I mean

1:41

Jesus we've been a minute for

1:43

a minute we've been the cheese

1:45

have been to five Super Bowls

1:47

in the last six years and they've

1:49

been to seven AFC championship I mean

1:51

dude literally I was thinking about this

1:53

one even while the bills game was

1:55

going on I was like dude they

1:57

could lose at this point and I'm like

1:59

yeah Let another team have

2:01

some like, it's okay, why

2:04

am I being so greedy?

2:06

Well, I mean, don't you,

2:08

the first team, I'm sure

2:10

for obviously, I'm sure

2:12

for my team, but still

2:14

I kind of go, well,

2:17

you know, man, well, you

2:19

know, here's the thing, it

2:21

reminds me of like, maybe

2:23

back in the 1950s, when

2:25

the Celtics won. eight of

2:27

them in a row. Like,

2:29

so it is, it is

2:31

crazy. I just say, wow,

2:33

if it happens, cool. But now

2:35

that we're playing against the Eagles,

2:37

I don't really like the Eagles

2:39

because their fans are so shitty.

2:42

The fans are so loud and

2:44

obnoxious and I want to say

2:46

they're all shitty, but I mean

2:48

I've just seen so many videos

2:50

and I stood by some when

2:52

I went to the Super Bowl

2:54

a couple years ago. They are

2:56

so loud and obnoxious until they

2:59

get punched in the mouth and

3:01

then they all quiet down and

3:03

they all disappear. They flew away.

3:05

I don't see one. Like there was

3:07

still like a minute or something

3:09

left or whatever. It's like right

3:11

after the final bomb and like gone.

3:14

Like they were. I mean, I was

3:16

like, wow, like all these. They flew

3:18

like an eagle. Welcome to the bad

3:21

crypto podcast. I do have the chief. Hold

3:23

on. I do have the chief. Hold on.

3:25

I do have the chief Super Bowl

3:27

Jersey. Really nice. Oh yeah.

3:29

For those of you watching

3:31

not watching the video version

3:33

it is a referee Jersey

3:35

that is yeah foul flag

3:37

on the play. No flags

3:40

in this interview though today we

3:42

got William quickly to come

3:44

back. It's been a hot

3:46

minute. He's been on the

3:48

show and man His stuff

3:50

got wrecked in L.A. His

3:52

house burned down, he lost

3:54

everything. Was he in the

3:56

Palisades? Yeah, he's, it's bad,

3:58

it's bad. I didn't want to

4:01

ask but I wondered I was like

4:03

dude is that like I hope you're

4:05

led your wallets or whatever it was

4:08

in a state. I'm sure his

4:10

crypto is secured wherever one would

4:12

secure the crypto but this is

4:14

a really interesting discussion with him

4:16

and I want to jump right

4:18

into it that's enough Super Bowl

4:21

talk let's get to crypto. And

4:23

back with us for the

4:25

I don't know what. it

4:27

is probably the third or

4:29

fourth time, but it's been

4:32

a few years. An incubator,

4:34

an investor in so many

4:36

blockchain projects, co-founded Tether, as

4:38

well as Wax, which is

4:41

a blockchain that we used

4:43

to do one and a

4:45

half million NFTs 2020 and

4:47

2021. Mr. William Quigley, welcome

4:49

back to the Republic of

4:52

Bad Cryptopia, sir. Hello, good see

4:54

you guys again. First things first,

4:56

I want to sympathize with

4:58

your plight. I know I

5:00

was supposed to see you

5:02

in Miami at the Wagmi

5:04

conference and you had to

5:06

fly back to LA. You're

5:08

one of the unfortunate ones

5:10

who whose homes got just

5:12

completely ravaged by the fire. So

5:14

we're really about that. Thank you.

5:16

I don't know where you go

5:18

from there. That's a long

5:20

process. I'm sure dealing with California

5:23

insurance is going to be

5:25

a great deal of fun. Yeah,

5:27

most people don't have home

5:29

burned down in their lifetime,

5:31

fortunately, but yeah, yeah, the

5:33

whole city burned. Well I

5:35

know that you are a bounce

5:37

back kind of guy and yeah

5:40

glad that you're here and that

5:42

you're still building and and I

5:44

want to start with with wax

5:46

okay because wax is the chain

5:48

that we chose to release our

5:50

NFT projects on in fact we

5:53

were the first major project to

5:55

release on atomic assets back in

5:57

2020 and we released I think

5:59

10 different series all but the

6:01

last one completely sold out

6:04

and I miss the good

6:06

old days of pack rip

6:08

and wax seems to be

6:10

languishing right now and there's

6:12

so many alternatives in the

6:14

NFT space I know you

6:16

are probably optimistic about the

6:18

future but why don't you

6:20

kind of tell us what

6:22

happened? two wax and how

6:25

are you guys working to

6:27

rebuild for the future so

6:29

that it's still a destination

6:31

for people to create NFTs

6:33

amongst other things? Yeah, I'd

6:35

say you're right. I mean,

6:37

wax really invented the concept

6:39

of this consumer mass market

6:41

NFT phenomenon in 2020 when

6:44

we did the tops, you

6:46

know, the baseball card. company.

6:48

We did a tops drop

6:50

with garbage pail kids that

6:52

kind of 1980s brand. And

6:54

I remember hearing that the

6:56

tops people who were, you

6:58

know, they knew nothing about

7:00

blockchain. I said, most people

7:02

didn't. And they thought it

7:05

was digital. And I'm like,

7:07

it's not digital. It's tokenized.

7:09

And let me explain that.

7:11

I got to say it

7:13

took 18 months to explain

7:15

this to these guys. They

7:17

were slow. But they eventually

7:19

We launched, I always remember

7:21

the day before the tops

7:24

launch of the garbage pill

7:26

kids NFTs, I said, can

7:28

you guys send out a

7:30

tweet just announcing it? No.

7:32

And I'm like, why? Well,

7:34

because it might fail. And

7:36

I was like, that's a

7:38

lame excuse. So I thought

7:40

they would sell out, but

7:43

it would take a while,

7:45

maybe 60 days. And they

7:47

sold out in like 24

7:49

hours. And that's really what

7:51

ushered in this concept of,

7:53

oh wow, people really are

7:55

excited about opening up these

7:57

packs and getting

7:59

NFTs. And then

8:01

throughout 2020, and

8:04

then 2021, the NFT boom

8:06

hit. Most people

8:08

were launching, even at that

8:10

time, we're launching on Ethereum because

8:12

that's all they knew, right?

8:15

Keep in mind, when I built

8:17

with my partners, when we

8:19

did Wax, we announced it in

8:21

2017 and went live in

8:23

2018. The most common

8:25

thing I would hear is, why

8:28

can't you just use Ethereum or

8:30

Bitcoin? Why would you need your

8:32

own blockchain? And trying

8:34

to explain to those people

8:36

at the time that because it

8:38

doesn't scale. And if you do

8:40

put a lot of traffic on

8:42

either of those chains, you

8:45

pay an ungodly

8:47

amount in transaction

8:49

fees, gas fees.

8:51

But it was

8:53

probably late 2021,

8:55

where the market finally went,

8:57

oh my gosh, Ethereum doesn't

8:59

scale. Now, had Wax

9:01

launched at that point, it

9:04

probably would have been very good

9:06

for Wax, right? Because the

9:08

zeitgeist was, oh, we need an alternative

9:10

low cost high transaction rate blockchain.

9:12

But by that time, Wax was

9:14

kind of old news that had

9:16

been out for three years. And

9:19

Solana benefited a lot at

9:21

that point, Solana and

9:23

Polygon. Solana

9:25

benefited mostly, I

9:28

think because

9:30

Sam Bankman Freed took like $4

9:32

billion of investor money in

9:34

his exchange and piled it into

9:36

Solana, right? Which caused the

9:38

price to spike and people to

9:40

go. Looking

9:42

at it from my vantage point

9:44

right now, I think the primary

9:47

motivation for

9:49

people to launch

9:51

a DAP or

9:54

a token on

9:56

a blockchain is that

9:58

the value the market

10:00

cap of that blockchain is

10:02

very high. So there's like

10:05

a lot of value in

10:07

that economy to pull from.

10:10

And as Solana, like has

10:12

just skyrocket over $100 billion

10:15

in value, I think it

10:17

has first, it kind of

10:19

missed the NFT stuff, but

10:22

it definitely got the meme

10:24

things. And you can sort

10:27

of consider memes to

10:29

be. the 2020 like

10:31

five or six block

10:33

chain from a transaction.

10:35

People do them. It's

10:37

sort of a highly

10:39

speculative thing. Heck, even

10:41

the president launched one.

10:43

And I think wax

10:45

has still, it's a

10:47

top, I think five or

10:50

six block chain from a

10:52

transaction volume. Wax does five.

10:54

seven million transactions, which puts

10:57

us in definitely top ten,

10:59

usually top 30 million, wax

11:01

was at 25 to 30

11:03

million until the NFT business

11:06

really sank. But it still

11:08

does. It's got a hundred

11:10

to 200,000 active wax

11:12

wallets each day, the DAU, and

11:14

then five to seven million

11:17

of transactions, which puts us

11:19

in definitely top ten, usually

11:21

top five or six. But where wax

11:24

has been hurt a bit is because

11:26

the market cap of the chain

11:28

is only 150, 200 million. And

11:30

if you're going to launch an

11:32

NFT, or I should say a

11:34

meme coin, and you want to

11:36

get it to a billion dollars

11:38

of theoretical value, you want to

11:41

do that on a chain

11:43

that has enough value represented

11:45

in market cap to where

11:47

your meme coin doesn't seem

11:49

out of whack. What you

11:51

wouldn't want to have happened

11:53

is You launch a token on

11:56

a chain and your token

11:58

is worth a billion. But

12:00

the underlying chain it launched

12:02

on is worth 200 million.

12:04

That seems backwards. So I

12:06

would say from a capability

12:08

standpoint, wax still is an

12:11

exceptionally good chain, virtually free

12:13

to use, the wax wallet

12:15

really easy to use, and

12:17

very high transaction volume that

12:19

it's capable of doing. If

12:21

you want to be like

12:23

going to get rich quick

12:26

kind of thing, you would

12:28

probably want to launch on

12:30

Solana because the market cap

12:32

there is bigger. So maybe

12:34

you can stock some of

12:36

that market cap into your

12:38

meme coin. Yeah, that's very

12:41

interesting. Let me ask this

12:43

then because I know you

12:45

guys kind of dipped your

12:47

toe into the meme coin

12:49

space. I think first with

12:51

the wuffy project, right? Yeah,

12:53

wuffy has been pretty good.

12:56

Yeah, and you guys are

12:58

bridging. Solana and wax, right?

13:00

So if you have X

13:02

amount of something over here

13:04

because that yes, you're exactly

13:06

right. If there's billions of

13:08

dollars of liquidity over here

13:11

and there's very little liquidity

13:13

over here, people are going

13:15

to go over there. So

13:17

is there maybe more ongoing

13:19

strategies around looping in Solana

13:21

and to partnering or bridging

13:23

wax through that? Yes. Yes.

13:26

I think the the whole

13:28

bridging phenomenon, which of course

13:30

has been an ongoing effort

13:32

by many chains over many,

13:34

many years. You have this

13:36

term EVM, you know, Ethereum

13:38

virtual machine, Ethereum compatibility. But

13:41

you'd probably want Ethereum, Solana,

13:43

maybe a couple of other

13:45

chains, because it just makes

13:47

sense. The more interoperable your

13:49

technology, the more widespread the

13:51

adoption. Right? That's always been

13:53

true in tech. And bridges

13:56

have also always been fraught

13:58

with risk because it's in

14:00

bridges where often people get

14:02

hacks, you know, the scams

14:04

take place. And so, and

14:06

there's costs, right, because you're

14:08

basically swapping one token for

14:10

another as you move your

14:13

token from your native chain

14:15

to the chain you want

14:17

to go to, and you

14:19

create some synthetic version of

14:21

that token on the native

14:23

chain to exist on the

14:25

next chain. And in doing

14:28

all of those swaps, There's

14:30

vulnerabilities and so Bridges have

14:32

always been an area of

14:34

high risk. We've so far

14:36

have not been hacked. We've

14:38

been Slowly building out bridges.

14:41

I suspect, you know, five

14:43

years from now virtually every

14:45

chain will be very compatible

14:47

with other chains through the

14:49

use of robust and maybe

14:51

more simplified chains There was

14:53

at one point, what was

14:56

it, Pocadot was trying to

14:58

create sort of this universal

15:00

chain that anyone could go

15:02

to, I wasn't a big

15:04

fan of the design of

15:06

that, and I don't think

15:09

that's the right answer for

15:11

the time being, it'll be

15:13

chains. And yeah, the more,

15:15

it's like a country, right,

15:17

as you open these bilateral

15:19

trade agreements with more and

15:21

more other countries, trade. helps

15:24

you as much as it

15:26

helps your trading partner. And

15:28

that's what I'd like to

15:30

see with Waxen and other

15:32

chains that I'm involved in.

15:34

And in the in the

15:37

in the 2025 time period,

15:39

meme coins, like I said,

15:41

are sort of akin to

15:43

the NFTs of the last

15:45

happening. And so I think

15:47

chains that allow people to

15:50

easily create a mean coin

15:52

are going to do better

15:54

than ones that don't. And

15:56

this might be one... why,

15:58

you know, Ethereum has, has

16:00

kind of lost a little

16:02

bit of luster. And when

16:05

I say that, it's mostly

16:07

in terms of the value

16:09

of Ethereum, it's still below,

16:11

it's 2021 high, it hit

16:13

about $4,800, and it's right

16:15

now, I don't know, 3,000

16:17

drops recently. Not even, it's

16:20

not recovering as quickly as

16:22

Bitcoin was. But I want

16:24

to, I want to go

16:26

linger on Max a little

16:28

bit longer because A lot

16:30

of people. you know put a

16:32

lot into creating collectibles there

16:34

and then people started demanding

16:36

utility for them and I

16:38

think the coin is around

16:40

four cents right now even

16:42

when the market's moving it

16:44

wasn't moving as much you

16:46

know I understand that there's

16:48

a possibility with bridging and

16:50

and wax tokens on salon

16:52

and all that but how

16:54

do you recreate the enthusiasm

16:56

for NFTs and the NFT

16:58

community on wax? so that

17:00

people, you know, there's a few

17:03

that are creating things, but we

17:05

haven't done anything in years

17:07

because it just seemed like

17:09

people were leaving and

17:11

unfortunately wax because it was

17:13

virtually free to mint NFTs, kind of

17:15

got this reputation of being like the

17:17

garage sale. of NFTs or the Kmart

17:20

of NFTs which we always thought was

17:22

a benefit because why pay 30, 40,

17:24

50 dollars gas for an NFT when

17:26

it doesn't cost you anything to mint

17:28

it. Yeah that's one reason I stayed

17:30

away from board apes and whatnot and

17:32

the crypto punks I don't want to

17:35

pay $200 for I got spoiled with

17:37

wax I was like you can admit

17:39

how many NFTs for a dollar over

17:41

here I've got to spend this I

17:43

was like no way. dumb Travis on

17:45

that one. Yeah, yeah, and I agree

17:48

with you having been in the game

17:50

space for so many years. It was

17:52

unusual for people to be like,

17:54

oh, it doesn't cost as much.

17:56

It must be better. I kind

17:58

of looked at it differently right

18:01

I think what happened was

18:03

NFTs caught on they caught

18:05

on by lots of charlatans

18:08

let's face it and lots

18:10

of like random guys who

18:12

never heard of what a

18:14

Bitcoin was let alone how

18:17

block chains worked and you

18:19

couldn't really do it on

18:21

Bitcoin because you know Bitcoin

18:23

sucks for most utility functions

18:26

and so the next most

18:28

well-known chain was a And

18:30

since virtually all the people

18:32

who were building on Ethereum

18:35

didn't really understand like what

18:37

you should be able to

18:39

do in a blockchain and

18:41

why having a Q management

18:44

system that's akin to the

18:46

Uber surge pricing model is

18:48

terrible as your chain is

18:51

starting to scale. They were

18:53

oblivious to this. So most

18:55

people went there. And if

18:57

you thought you could make

19:00

$1,000 by getting some NFT,

19:02

you know, maybe you don't

19:04

care so much that it

19:06

costs $50 to transfer it.

19:09

And so I think that

19:11

benefited the theorem. And it

19:13

also benefited the theory of

19:15

course that it was a

19:18

token that was traded on.

19:20

many exchanges, right? Almost all

19:22

exchanges in the US and

19:24

outside. So liquidity, the underlying

19:27

liquidity is there and that's

19:29

super important. And the Ethereum

19:31

did have, because it was

19:33

the first mainstream chain that

19:36

adopted the smart contract model,

19:38

they had probably the most

19:40

developers of any chain out

19:42

there. And so I think

19:45

all those reasons really help

19:47

drive things to Ethereum. And

19:49

also, Wax was a new

19:51

on a on a new

19:54

consensus mechanism, right? We used

19:56

the delegated proof of state

19:58

consensus mechanism and particular in

20:00

2020 and 2021, I think

20:03

proof of proof of work

20:05

was still sort of

20:07

in the dogma of

20:09

crypto people, nothing to

20:12

do. And even though

20:14

that doesn't really scale,

20:16

I think had waxed maybe

20:19

been proof of work and

20:21

cost more, perhaps people would,

20:23

at least the traditional people

20:26

would say, oh, I trust

20:28

that more, because you might

20:30

remember there was this debate

20:33

going on really until Ethereum

20:35

went proof of stake. There

20:37

was a debate going on that

20:40

proof of work was more secure,

20:42

right? And It's a

20:44

theoretical debate. My comment

20:46

to people was always,

20:49

a blockchain is so

20:51

many thousands of times safer

20:53

than everything else you do

20:55

online, that to argue, you

20:58

know, proof of work is 10,000

21:00

times safer, and the proof of

21:02

stake is 5,000. It's sort of

21:05

an academic argument because they're both

21:07

more than safe enough for you

21:09

to do work on. But all

21:12

of those things I think led more

21:14

traffic to go or more at least

21:16

dollar-based transaction volumes to

21:18

go to Ethereum. William, this feels

21:20

more like a post-mortem, you know,

21:22

like you're doing a biopsy on

21:25

the blockchain. What I want to

21:27

know is, how does it come

21:29

back? We know we don't have

21:31

to. Right, but that's because you

21:33

asked me to give you a

21:36

take on it, right? So that's

21:38

the reason. Yeah, it is a

21:40

post-mortem of what has happened since

21:42

2021. Absolutely. Now, when you say,

21:44

how does it come back? Well,

21:47

if we measure block chains

21:49

by one factor, which is

21:51

transaction volume, wax is number

21:53

six in the world. So I guess

21:55

it could get to number one,

21:58

but there's thousands of

22:00

block chains and Max is

22:02

number six. So probably on

22:04

a DAU basis, I assume

22:06

it's top 10, but I'd

22:08

have to look in that

22:10

radar to see that. So

22:12

where will NFTs rise again

22:14

and become a dominant force

22:16

in crypto, I don't have

22:18

a crystal ball, right? So

22:20

I can't tell you if

22:22

they will or won't. I

22:24

think memes. are really popular

22:26

right now. And so chains

22:28

that have more meme activity

22:31

will have more transaction volume.

22:33

And then the other would

22:35

be defy to some extent,

22:37

right? So chains that are

22:39

very useful for defy will

22:41

tend to do better as

22:43

well. What we're doing at

22:45

wax. and we've been doing

22:47

now for the last couple

22:49

of years, is building more

22:51

robustness in different areas. The

22:53

R&G, the random number generation

22:55

capabilities, we're decentralizing that. We

22:57

are making improvements in the

22:59

RAM. You might, you guys

23:01

might remember, RAM becomes a

23:03

scarce resource as as you

23:06

scale up the transaction volume.

23:08

What we talked about earlier

23:10

bridging so we're doing much

23:12

more bridging bridging to more

23:14

chains and then block chains

23:16

are cyclical right so In

23:18

the end we really created

23:20

wax to help Bridge the

23:22

the digital video gaming market

23:24

into the tokenized gaming market

23:26

and it has taken longer

23:28

for blockchain-based games to rapidly

23:30

expand for there to be

23:32

a lot more use of

23:34

them. And that has actually

23:36

surprised me a bit. I

23:38

thought the very. aspect of

23:41

being able to control your

23:43

virtual items to be encouraged

23:45

to own and to trade

23:47

your virtual items would be

23:49

a strong use case. And

23:51

I'm, it's conjecture, I'm just

23:53

speculating that, block chains are

23:55

still quite, they're a lot

23:57

more difficult to interact with

23:59

than traditional digital based things,

24:01

digital games, whether they're mobile

24:03

or console or even PC.

24:05

So. We still need more

24:07

enhancements in usability. And until

24:09

that happens, I think it'll

24:11

be harder still to get

24:13

large adoption of video game,

24:16

blockchain based video gaming. But

24:18

keep in mind, that's been.

24:20

The reason why Wax was

24:22

launched was collectively around blockchain-based

24:24

video gaming and virtual item

24:26

trading within that group were

24:28

NFTs, but it wasn't launched

24:30

as an NFT chain. NFTs

24:32

are just one element within

24:34

blockchain-based video gaming. Yeah, I

24:36

remember meeting you guys back,

24:38

I think Joel and I,

24:40

we were at the D10,

24:42

D2010 or something. D10 E

24:44

conference in it was in

24:46

Silicon Valley in 2017. That

24:48

was the first time that

24:50

I had noticed you guys

24:53

and you had a booth

24:55

there at the event and

24:57

it was really interesting to

24:59

sort of see and then

25:01

see evolution from there to

25:03

to where you are now.

25:05

I want to ask, I

25:07

want to ask about this

25:09

because you've, you've been in

25:11

the game for a long

25:13

time. Mr. Mr. William Quigley.

25:15

I have. And I mean,

25:17

you were one of the,

25:19

were you like the first

25:21

institutional institutional investor in PayPal

25:23

in PayPal and PayPal and

25:25

PayPal or something like that

25:28

or something like that? Yeah,

25:30

my firm was yeah, yeah,

25:32

that's spectacular and so what

25:34

I want to know is

25:36

as we've moved from you

25:38

know traditional finance into PayPal

25:40

which was really early digital

25:42

money transmitting essentially into tether

25:44

Now here we are with

25:46

additional stable coins now we're

25:48

starting to see the US

25:50

kind of deregulate some stuff

25:52

And I think you've said

25:54

this before, it's all, what

25:56

was the direct quote? It's

25:58

always obvious. It's obvious ideas

26:00

are obvious after the fact.

26:03

And so let's put our

26:05

future, let's put our futures

26:07

hat on. Where is the

26:09

future of money going next?

26:11

Because we have a friendly

26:13

administration in place. It seems

26:15

like more and more countries

26:17

or maybe going to stable

26:19

coins. Are we gonna get

26:21

to like a. a stable

26:23

coin forex kind of a

26:25

thing coming up like where

26:27

do you let's maybe give

26:29

us five years or kind

26:31

of peer into the future

26:33

and and let's see what

26:35

might be obvious but we

26:38

don't know it's a mystery

26:40

you love mystery so let's

26:42

let's dive into the mystery

26:44

how do you think it

26:46

could go sure and I

26:48

would start by saying that

26:50

the Trump administration is certainly

26:52

not deregulating crypto It is

26:54

regulating crypto. We have been

26:56

in an anarchy period since

26:58

Bitcoin was rolled out, since

27:00

they, you know, when prosecuted

27:02

Ross Littlebrick, and then they

27:04

went after particularly the US

27:06

regulatory bodies. They regulated via

27:08

litigation, and that is really

27:10

a bad way to regulate

27:12

because people have to guess

27:15

what's okay and what's not

27:17

okay and if it's not

27:19

okay and you made a

27:21

legitimate mistake you get sued

27:23

by one of the regulatory

27:25

agencies so under Gary against

27:27

a lot of people's portfolios

27:29

they're here to protect your

27:31

portfolio like now you actually

27:33

decimated a lot of exactly

27:35

Yeah, I mean think about

27:37

the harm done to people

27:39

who were getting nice returns

27:41

by staking their Ethereum on

27:43

either cracking or coin base

27:45

if they were US citizens.

27:47

That's a perfectly legitimate activity

27:50

and coin base can do

27:52

it or cracking can do

27:54

it easier than an individual.

27:56

And then the SEC for

27:58

some bizarre reason decided to

28:00

sue both. of those companies

28:02

and said, you can't do

28:04

that for Americans. It's bad.

28:06

But the alternative is to

28:08

let their Ethereum essentially be

28:10

paper weights and non-earning assets.

28:12

So that to me was

28:14

an example of what you're

28:16

talking about. Through their actions,

28:18

they were harming the very

28:20

people they were supposed to

28:22

protect. And when it comes

28:25

to the most successful experiments

28:27

that have happened on block

28:29

chains, obviously stable coins have

28:31

been the best. Stable coins

28:33

are their most traded tokens,

28:35

and they are the most

28:38

needed. Exchanges really wouldn't exist

28:40

in their current form if

28:42

it weren't for stable coins.

28:44

And the reason is because...

28:47

There's no way to do

28:49

arbitrage trading, unless one side of

28:51

the trading pair is stable. Because

28:53

if it's not, and both things are

28:56

moving, you don't know if you're

28:58

actually ahead or behind when you

29:00

conduct a trade, because you need

29:02

a base currency to calculate your

29:04

gains or your losses in. And

29:07

so that's the reason tether became

29:09

so dominant. And now there are

29:11

many other stable coins as well,

29:13

and some of them are in

29:15

different groupings. much of the way

29:17

stable coins differ between each other

29:20

is in terms of what the

29:22

underlying collateral is that makes them

29:24

stable. I think the best designed

29:26

is the one I was involved

29:28

with which is tether and the

29:30

first one. That's the best designed

29:32

stable coin and others have followed

29:35

in that but then there's been

29:37

ones that have tried to do

29:39

it a different way and some

29:41

of those have wound up crashing

29:43

and burning. I believed in 2015.

29:45

when tethers started to get

29:47

rolled out to different exchanges.

29:49

I believe it would take

29:51

10 years to 15 years

29:53

for the world's major economies

29:55

to adopt the tokenization

29:58

of their fiat currency. Now that's

30:00

taken longer than I thought

30:02

it would. Technally it could

30:04

be done in a year,

30:07

but it took longer and

30:09

a lot of that was

30:11

just education and probably some

30:13

hard efforts against doing it

30:15

by the regulated financial institutions,

30:17

who like any big corporate

30:20

group, look at any new

30:22

technology as a threat. to

30:24

their profits. And I would

30:26

guess that's the case with

30:28

stable coins today. There's probably

30:30

a trillion dollars made every

30:32

year globally in an 80

30:35

trillion now almost a hundred

30:37

trillion dollar global economy. There's

30:39

probably a trillion dollars made

30:41

by banks and other finance

30:43

institutions in converting currencies. It's

30:45

the invisible tax of global

30:47

trade. The remittance is that,

30:50

that's huge for people who

30:52

are sending money back to,

30:54

like they're, back in Africa

30:56

or something, right? And what

30:58

people focus on with remittance,

31:00

which is just people working

31:02

in one country, earning money,

31:05

and then sending that to

31:07

their relatives in another country,

31:09

what people focus on is

31:11

the stipulated fees, the one

31:13

or two or three percent

31:15

transaction fee. That is irrelevant,

31:17

okay, to these companies, but

31:20

it's a side show that

31:22

they make you pay attention

31:24

to. The real money is

31:26

in the currency conversion, because

31:28

who really knows what a,

31:30

you know, a peso should

31:32

trade at at any given

31:35

time, or what the exchange

31:37

rate between the dollar and

31:39

a yen. right, or RMB

31:41

or whatever. And those are

31:43

the major currencies. When you

31:45

get to these small regional

31:48

currencies, the capture of value

31:50

can be. over 10% 20%

31:52

big arbitrage opportunities that's why

31:54

I think a stable coin

31:56

forex kind of a model

31:58

could be big for arbitrage

32:00

but it would almost be

32:03

like how much is Bitcoin

32:05

in Nigeria it's this much

32:07

so then you should be

32:09

able to figure out based

32:11

on the dollar it should

32:13

almost be algorithmic somehow based

32:15

on we have an exit

32:18

that we all agree upon

32:20

it's worth this much in

32:22

that much like it seems like

32:24

it shouldn't be so hard but I

32:26

think that's where they It's there's

32:28

nothing technically hard. Yes,

32:31

there's nothing technically hard about

32:33

it. It comes down to

32:35

where the resistance points are.

32:38

The biggest resistance, I think,

32:40

even beyond the central banks

32:43

of the world, who are

32:45

interested in experimenting, I think

32:47

is the big financial institution

32:49

saying, we cannot allow this

32:52

to happen unless our profit

32:54

streams are either. stable

32:56

or enhanced from this activity.

32:58

That's gonna be the challenge.

33:01

Now, the Trump administration

33:03

came out in one of its

33:06

executive orders and said that they

33:08

would put a hold on a

33:10

what's called a central bank

33:13

digital currency, that's what they

33:15

call stable coins issued by

33:17

governments. So Trump wants to

33:19

put a freeze on any

33:21

plan to introduce a tokenized

33:24

US dollar issued by. the

33:26

US government. And I would

33:28

say that's a mistake.

33:30

We should tokenize our

33:32

currency. It's one of the

33:35

There are very few things where

33:37

there's no tradeoffs, negative tradeoffs,

33:39

at least to the masses

33:41

of us, and that would

33:43

be tokenizing our currencies. It's

33:45

a very good idea, mainly

33:47

because we could keep those

33:49

currencies in their native form

33:51

and avoid these big currency

33:53

conversion costs. But, you know,

33:55

visa just launched something called

33:57

their visa asset tokenization platform.

34:00

T.P. that will allow banks to

34:02

really tokenize their own like the

34:04

Wells Fargo dollar the chase dollar

34:06

instead to be able to tokenize

34:09

their own. So is that advantage?

34:11

I don't really want a government

34:13

to tokenize the dollar because then

34:16

they say you can only spend

34:18

it within this mile radius. You've

34:20

spent too much on be here

34:23

this month. You can't buy any

34:25

more of that. When they got

34:27

programmable money with with that side

34:30

of thing is what I think

34:32

scares people. I think you're right,

34:34

the scare seems to be that

34:37

if you tokenize the dollar, the

34:39

government will be able to monitor

34:41

what you buy, maybe even restrict

34:44

what you buy. I have news

34:46

for the world. They already fricking

34:48

do that. Stence the US Patriot

34:51

Act, a terrible piece of legislation.

34:53

The US government has been able

34:55

to know everything you do with

34:57

your money and to restrict your

35:00

money wherever they so choose. And

35:02

there's a particular regulatory rule known

35:04

as the BSA, the Bank Secrecy

35:07

Act, that has been getting a

35:09

little bit more visibility recently, but

35:11

is an awful thing. It was

35:14

mainly designed to stop like terrorist

35:16

financing. And like many things, the

35:18

corporations have used it to go

35:21

after their competitors. And so the

35:23

BSA, the Bank Secrecy Act, is

35:25

the rules. that the bank uses

35:28

to restrict or cancel your banking

35:30

relationship with them for no reason.

35:32

Because what their compliance teams will

35:35

say is, oh, you, um, are

35:37

no longer allowed to bank with

35:39

us. And we're not going to

35:42

tell you why. They did that

35:44

to Kanye. Well, actually, Twitter just

35:46

did that for one of my

35:49

business accounts. They said, oh, you're

35:51

suspended because you did something. I'm

35:53

like, did we used Grock to

35:55

do it? What do you mean?

35:58

And they don't tell you anything

36:00

else about it. Yes. So it's

36:02

not just banking. It's all kind.

36:05

of things that that's... I agree

36:07

with you. It's not just making,

36:09

I think as companies get to

36:12

be significant players in a economy,

36:14

I think there has to be

36:16

a higher standard for them denying

36:19

you the right to use their

36:21

platform. To say, it's one thing,

36:23

let's say, a Facebook ban you.

36:26

You could argue Facebook. doesn't have

36:28

a lot of regulatory power, and

36:30

you and I, I guess, could

36:33

start our own Facebook. See, this

36:35

is not true in banking. Banks

36:37

are actually more a governmental body.

36:40

In order for us to start

36:42

a bank, we need to get

36:44

a license from the people of

36:47

the United States, either at the

36:49

state level or the federal level.

36:51

And if we get a state

36:53

or a federally charter bank, the

36:56

people have given us the right

36:58

to bank, to be a banking

37:00

operator, I believe because of that,

37:03

because it's a license the people

37:05

of the United States give to

37:07

you, then you should be held

37:10

to a higher standard. You should

37:12

be required to give everybody banking

37:14

access. unless there's some specific prohibition.

37:17

I don't know what that may

37:19

be. You're a convicted money launderer.

37:21

Maybe they can deny you. But

37:24

to be able to just stay,

37:26

which is I think unique to

37:28

banking, they never are required to

37:31

tell you why. They can just

37:33

say, in accordance with the Bank

37:35

Secrecy Act, we're not required to

37:38

tell you anything. But they're not

37:40

accusing you of terrorist financing. I

37:42

think in many cases, this... BSA

37:45

rule was used to deny people

37:47

bank accounts simply because of their

37:49

association with crypto. And I would

37:51

like David Sachs, who's now the

37:54

crypto AISR. I would like the

37:56

new head of the SEC, maybe

37:58

Scott Bennett, the. Bissette, the nominee

38:01

for the Secretary of the Treasury, I

38:03

would like all these guys to

38:05

stay. Bank secrecy act has to stop

38:07

being used by banks just to go

38:10

after people they think could compete

38:12

with them. Well, we actually have some

38:14

breaking news right now along the lines

38:16

of some of what we've been talking

38:18

about. Frank Corva with Bitcoin Magazine is

38:21

on the scene at David Sachs press

38:23

conference that's taking place right now and

38:25

there's a few tweets. I'm just going

38:27

to read out here to see some

38:30

of the things that were said. David

38:32

Sachs, as crypto founders, simply want rules.

38:34

Tim Scott says the Golden Age has

38:37

begun French Hills, a representative, we don't

38:39

want to be behind in financial technology

38:41

and digital assets in the US.

38:43

John Boosman says some digital assets

38:45

are commodities, summer securities. David Sachs

38:48

is laser focused on bringing certainty

38:50

to digital assets market. And Tim

38:52

Scott says we've got an opportunity

38:54

to get crypto bills through the

38:57

Senate in the first hundred days.

38:59

David, again, we're here to provide

39:01

resources of education for members of

39:03

the House. Senate and then these

39:05

right here. Tim Scott says we're

39:08

moving first on stable coins and

39:10

the David says the president asked

39:12

us to evaluate the idea for

39:14

a Bitcoin reserve it's one of

39:16

the first things that we're gonna

39:19

look at so there's a lot

39:21

there but comment on that. So

39:23

I would say, those are

39:26

all things that we have

39:28

been getting teased, like, hey,

39:30

something needs to be done

39:33

on the privately issued stable

39:35

coins, right? Because you've got

39:37

currently almost all

39:39

privately issued and

39:42

then experiments being

39:44

done by governments on

39:46

the sovereign issued stable

39:49

coins, but it looks like

39:51

those are going to take

39:53

longer. Like, give me a break.

39:55

If you, if there was

39:57

no enforcement whatsoever, no regular.

39:59

body asking questions are going

40:02

after people, I would say,

40:04

well, I guess it's just

40:06

a caveat am tour and

40:08

we'll just go forward. But

40:10

be, and that's how basically

40:12

the internet 1.0 worked and

40:14

it worked out very well.

40:16

But that's not what's happened.

40:18

It's been the worst of

40:20

all cases. No roadmap for

40:22

how to be in compliance

40:24

and different US regulatory bodies

40:26

going after people for infractions.

40:28

They didn't know. they had

40:30

made. Gensler was the worst

40:32

guy from that regard in

40:34

the US government. He basically

40:36

tried to set policy via

40:38

litigation. The Goldman Sachs lackey,

40:40

right? I mean, that's one

40:43

of those like the revolving

40:45

door when you have, you

40:47

know, these regulatory people coming

40:49

in. It's very incestuous how

40:51

like the FDA and the

40:53

SEC and all this, the

40:55

CFTC, they all kind of

40:57

just sort of rotate and

40:59

then they go out of

41:01

one deal. Go into a

41:03

big lobby deal and it's

41:05

just, it's just obnoxious. Yeah,

41:07

and so David is a

41:09

free market oriented guy, but

41:11

he understands that you need

41:13

some rules right so first

41:15

and foremost what we need

41:17

is a Some sort of

41:19

omnibus regulatory framework now that

41:21

really should not be done

41:23

at the regulatory agency level

41:25

that makes no sense to

41:28

me Crypto is different enough

41:30

that Congress needs to set

41:32

that because Congress speaks to

41:34

the people. The people have

41:36

a right to be. to

41:38

voice their opinions to these

41:40

elected people. If this stuff

41:42

gets relegated to some agency

41:44

that is filled with bureaucrats

41:46

who have no accountability to

41:48

us, the people, then it's

41:50

gonna be bad. So what

41:52

I would like is for

41:54

Congress to come and say,

41:56

let's try to create some

41:58

framework and job one is

42:00

going to be designated. one

42:02

of these agencies as having

42:04

primary jurisdiction over that that

42:07

area of crypto and it

42:09

may be Treasury does it

42:11

for stable coins and all

42:14

other tokens are done by

42:16

the CFTC I given what

42:18

the SEC, the inconsistencies of

42:20

how they've approached things, I

42:22

would prefer it not be

42:25

the SEC. I'd prefer it

42:27

CFTC. I doubt it's gonna

42:29

be the IRS. So it's

42:31

gonna be one of those

42:33

three Treasury SEC or CFTC.

42:35

They need to be primary

42:38

stewards of this. And then

42:40

every other agency sort of

42:42

like follows behind them. If

42:44

we don't do that, I

42:46

think you're going to get

42:48

this, what we've seen so

42:50

far, different groups trying, you

42:52

know, you had the IRS

42:55

say crypto is property. The

42:57

CFTC said, no, it's a

42:59

commodity. The SEC, it's a

43:01

security and Treasury said it's

43:03

money. And so which one was

43:05

it? And here we are in

43:07

2025, we still don't have that

43:09

resolved. I do think In the next

43:11

year, I bet it takes just

43:13

12 months, we start to get

43:16

some of this clarity. And this

43:18

is where a guy like David,

43:20

who's listening and carrying out

43:22

the goals of Donald Trump,

43:24

is going to be very

43:26

helpful. I think he can go

43:29

and speak to these agencies

43:31

and say, this is what

43:33

the president is looking for,

43:35

and speak to members of

43:37

Congress. The fact that we have

43:39

not tokenized, widely tokenized Fiat so

43:42

far, other than things like tether

43:44

and USDC, just shows how much

43:46

big big corporations have been on

43:49

the sidelines because they haven't known

43:51

what's legal and what's not legal.

43:53

And where goes the US? This

43:56

is why I'm bullish on what

43:58

President Trump is doing. The US

44:00

sets the schedule for what happens

44:03

in any regulatory world. So if

44:05

the US comes out and says,

44:07

this is the framework, very rapidly,

44:10

the EU is going to do

44:12

it. And then other countries are

44:15

going to do it. And then

44:17

we can have a lot more

44:19

certainty as crypto people in what

44:22

we can do in each different

44:24

country. Let me ask you this,

44:27

because there's different types of crypto,

44:29

right? So it seems different types

44:31

of crypto has different types of

44:34

classifications, right? So a stable coin

44:36

probably should be it's money, right?

44:39

A stable money, kind of money,

44:41

Bitcoin. commodity probably probably I would

44:43

say what about NFTs and what

44:46

about meme coins because it seems

44:48

to me that when the SEC

44:50

said hey you can't have utility

44:53

because that's a security then everybody

44:55

says okay well I'll just create

44:58

this completely worthless shit coin that

45:00

has no utility that doesn't do

45:02

anything And then conversely, when somebody

45:05

launched an NFT project that didn't

45:07

have any utility, people got all

45:10

mad and upset. But now we

45:12

got these meme coins that don't

45:14

do anything. And it's just, it's

45:17

just weird. So how do we

45:19

even, how would you even go

45:22

about classifying or regulating meme coins

45:24

or NFTs? How does that look?

45:26

Well, obviously there has to be

45:29

a framework, right? As you said,

45:31

the easy ones are things like

45:33

maybe a Bitcoin, which is probably

45:36

money. what the regulators might call

45:38

financial contracts. So that could be

45:41

some sort of smart contract that

45:43

gives you a yield for doing

45:45

some duty, whatever that is, maybe

45:48

voting on the blockchain or something.

45:50

So maybe it's kind of a

45:53

new kind of asset, maybe, or

45:55

an asset class or a regulated

45:57

class, yeah. Right. So I think

46:00

if it's very much being marketed

46:02

to people as a. way to

46:05

make money, so you've tokenized a

46:07

real estate project. Okay, that's probably

46:09

a security, and I have no

46:12

problem with that. But a meme

46:14

coin, an NFT, a blockchain-based video

46:16

gaming virtual item, these things are

46:19

collectibles. We've had digital

46:21

collectibles. since the freaking

46:24

1980s. Like that was a

46:26

business I was in, the

46:28

buying and selling a video

46:30

game virtual items. It was

46:32

never a problem. The world

46:34

existed with it. No one

46:37

went bankrupt. And so I

46:39

would like to see a

46:41

special category of, call

46:44

them tokenized collectibles, and

46:46

NFTs, memes, and anything

46:48

in the metaverse space.

46:50

that video game items

46:52

those are there and

46:54

they're very lightly regulated

46:56

right because there's their

46:58

collectibles that the if

47:00

you try to heavily regulate

47:02

beanie babies back in the

47:05

day right would smother that

47:07

activity and people have been

47:09

collecting probably since societies were

47:12

formed they're just digital collectibles

47:14

I think when you start

47:16

touting things like rates of

47:19

return promises of financial

47:21

upside. Of course, that's more

47:23

like a security. I wonder

47:26

what the SEC was, it

47:28

just wanted to call anything

47:31

done on a blockchain of

47:33

security. And it was nonsense. I wonder

47:36

if Thai is eyeballing an opportunity to

47:38

launch Beanie Baby NFTs eventually. So I

47:40

know you got a cut out here

47:42

in a minute. So last question for

47:44

you, I want to talk about the

47:47

four-year cycle that we find ourselves now

47:49

in year number four. And there's a

47:51

couple questions around this. Do you see,

47:53

especially with the wind at our sales,

47:56

this is all very bullish news long

47:58

term for crypto and blockchain. Do you

48:00

see us having the four-year

48:02

cycle where things are going

48:05

to go bubboom? crazy here

48:07

heading into the summer and

48:09

maybe even later in the

48:11

year and do you think

48:13

that we're going to see

48:16

less overall volatility in the

48:18

steep sell-offs because blockchain is

48:20

just moving forward everything is

48:22

moving forward are we likely

48:24

to see less dramatic bare

48:26

markets and less dramatic bull

48:29

markets Those are obviously if

48:31

I knew for certain the

48:33

answers. I would be a

48:35

trillionaire right? Tell us what

48:37

to buy will you? Come

48:40

on. I wish I knew

48:42

but I would say historically

48:44

We have, crypto people have

48:46

been in the game a

48:48

long time, have followed the

48:51

cycles. Because much of these

48:53

tokens were not issuing financial

48:55

statements, didn't have formal management

48:57

teams, you can't use the

48:59

traditional valuation metrics that you

49:02

use in traditionally traded assets

49:04

to figure out what's going

49:06

on in crypto. So a

49:08

lot more of it was

49:10

based on sentiments. the four-year

49:13

cycle around the Bitcoin having

49:15

has been a reliable kind

49:17

of pattern that we've all

49:19

sort of fallen into. This

49:21

would be the fourth one

49:23

since 20 May 20 or

49:26

April 2024. Historically, these have

49:28

lasted 18 months call that

49:30

November 2025. So if things

49:32

were to go as they

49:34

were historically, we would have

49:37

had post-April 2024, Bitcoin happening,

49:39

we would have a slight

49:41

uptick, which we did, and

49:43

then one or two strong

49:45

pullbacks in August and September,

49:48

which we did, and then

49:50

a ramp up in Q4,

49:52

which we also saw, Bitcoin

49:54

went from like 65,000 to

49:56

100,000 in Q4. But then

49:59

by my look at the

50:01

patterns, Bitcoin needed to hit

50:03

about 300,000 plus dollars in

50:05

this cycle sometime in 2025

50:07

for us to be on

50:10

track with historical patterns. And

50:12

then where goes Bitcoin? So

50:14

goes Ethereum and all the

50:16

other all coins. They usually

50:18

follow about six months after

50:21

the bump up in Bitcoin.

50:23

Now it's we just completed

50:25

January. And January was lackluster.

50:27

We're kind of like at

50:30

100,000. We've had pullbacks and

50:32

then we've gone up to

50:34

like 110 and down to

50:37

95. Hard to say exactly

50:39

why these things have happened.

50:41

But I would say this,

50:43

if Bitcoin is not at

50:45

$200,000 by ends of April,

50:47

then I would say there's

50:49

probably a shift in

50:51

the pattern. If by the end of

50:53

June, it's not. hitting

50:56

$200,000, then it's unlikely

50:58

we're going to see

51:00

that $300,000 Bitcoin price

51:02

in 2025. Is it

51:04

conceivable that for various

51:06

reasons, the bull market

51:08

has been pushed back

51:10

six months so that that

51:12

is going to happen in

51:15

2026 maybe? But historically, at

51:17

about 18 months after a

51:19

bull run, there is a

51:21

dramatic steep drop off where Bitcoin

51:24

goes down 75% and the other all

51:26

coins drop even more. I think we

51:28

have this real quick, hold that thought

51:30

there, did that sort of pre having

51:33

impact that because this was out

51:35

of cycle regularity because those ETFs

51:37

came on board and then we

51:39

had this sort of pre having

51:41

weird bump that we were like,

51:43

oh my God, we're going and

51:45

then it just, and then it

51:47

just, and then so it's been

51:49

a really weird cycle already. Yeah, so

51:51

obviously nothing is ever exactly as

51:53

the prior pattern these are more

51:55

generalized things I did note that

51:57

that oh there was someone do

52:00

For ETFs, but I think that

52:02

should have been kind of washed

52:04

out played out by the end

52:06

of the summer And so through

52:08

December I was like look Bitcoin

52:10

if it hits a hundred thousand

52:12

in December And I was saying

52:14

this in 2023 said if in

52:16

December 2024 bitcoins at 100 ,000 I

52:18

will be keeping the faith that

52:20

we're on the prior cycles, which

52:22

means Roughly

52:24

Bitcoin needed to go about

52:26

5x from its prehabiting price

52:28

is 65 ,000 So that gets

52:31

you like 325 or something

52:33

right now from this vantage

52:35

point I still think that

52:37

seems quite doable by the

52:39

end of the year Remember

52:41

Bitcoin doubled it from August

52:44

to like November it doubled

52:46

right like 45 to 90.

52:48

There's no problem So Bitcoin

52:50

has an ability in three

52:52

months to double. There's never

52:55

been a problem with that

52:57

where I'm I'm

52:59

starting to wonder is

53:01

on things like Ethereum. So

53:03

Ethereum Has generally done

53:05

2x the multiples of Bitcoin.

53:07

So Ethereum was at

53:09

like 20 or $2 ,000

53:11

around the happening of Bitcoin

53:13

It needed to do

53:15

not 5x it needed to

53:18

do double what Bitcoin

53:20

is going to do it

53:22

needed to do 10x

53:24

Which would be 20 ,000.

53:26

So does it seem to

53:28

me that that's a

53:30

hard That's a hard level

53:32

to hit it does

53:34

from this point. It's like

53:36

early February 2025. I'm

53:38

like, hmm Can Bitcoin hit

53:40

20 ,000 sometime in 2025?

53:42

I think that's gonna

53:44

be very challenging If it

53:46

doesn't right That's a

53:49

long -term problem for Bitcoin.

53:51

I'm sorry for Ethereum and

53:54

The trade -off with Ethereum was

53:56

always it's much more volatile

53:58

than Bitcoin But you

54:00

get a lot more upside potential.

54:02

Well, if if Ethereum only

54:05

goes up about the same amount

54:07

as Bitcoin, you would much rather

54:09

have your assets in Bitcoin

54:12

because Bitcoin is much more

54:14

liquid and Bitcoin

54:16

usually doesn't drop as much

54:18

in a downturn. So I think

54:20

the big loser in this 2025

54:22

bull market, if it doesn't

54:24

go positively, the biggest loser

54:27

would be Ethereum. That could

54:29

mean people just stucking money

54:32

out of Ethereum. And that's it.

54:34

I hope that doesn't happen.

54:36

I've been a long-term holder

54:38

since I was part of the

54:40

the Ethereum crowd sale. So I

54:43

would like to believe that it's

54:45

going to do what it's done

54:47

historically. And then wherever

54:49

goes, Bitcoin and Ethereum

54:51

so goes the rest of

54:53

the alt. It would be

54:56

somewhat ironic if with Trump

54:58

in power and this very

55:00

attractive regulatory clarity that guys

55:03

like David Sachs and Trump

55:05

are bringing to crypto be

55:07

a bit ironic in that

55:10

environment. We had kind of

55:12

a modest bump in this

55:15

post-habiting cycle. That makes no

55:17

sense to me that for that to

55:19

happen. There's just too much happening. There's

55:22

too much adoption. Black Rocks got too

55:24

much. Microstrategies got too much. There's going

55:26

to be a supply squeeze on Bitcoin

55:29

and it's going to drive. I mean,

55:31

we're already in the early stage of

55:33

mass adoption and retail's not here yet.

55:35

So I'm going to remain wildly optimistic

55:37

that the best is yet to come.

55:39

But it could be hard for Ethereum,

55:41

you're right. I mean, I think, well,

55:43

you mean, Ethereum is in this weird

55:45

flux state right now because they went

55:47

from the proof of work to proof

55:49

of stake. They've not seen those all-time

55:52

high since they moved from proof of

55:54

work to proof of stake, right? And

55:56

so I think that, I don't know

55:58

if that's part of the problem. but

56:00

I know that your time is

56:02

about up. We got to, you

56:04

got to, you know, the only

56:06

thing I'll say that's exciting is

56:08

2025 is a, this is the

56:10

year, right? It's the what we

56:12

have every four years. This is

56:14

the year. So we will know

56:16

all the answers to our questions.

56:18

We will know by November, December.

56:20

we will find out if the

56:22

cycles are going to continue. And

56:24

it could be, I forget which

56:26

one of you mentioned this, it

56:28

could be if we don't have

56:30

this tremendous increase in value, like

56:32

we've seen historically, that the decline

56:34

in 2026, 2027 is also more

56:37

modest, right? That's, that's, that would

56:39

be a little bit of a

56:41

consolation. Let's say Bitcoin only pulls

56:43

back 25 or 50% not 75%

56:45

obviously the worst case would be

56:47

it pulls back 75% having never

56:49

really taken off in this cycle.

56:51

But like you guys, I see

56:53

no reason for that. And at

56:55

this point, I think we're still

56:57

on that 300,000 Bitcoin price in

56:59

2025. I'm less less optimistic about

57:01

Ethereum hitting 20, I'm hitting less

57:03

optimistic about Ethereum hitting 20, I

57:05

hope it hits 10 to 12.

57:07

And then every other token follows

57:09

suit. I like those. Those prognostications

57:11

make me happy. We'll see if

57:13

you're right, William Quigley, always happy

57:15

to have you on. Where's your

57:17

favorite place for people to follow

57:19

you to keep up with your

57:21

thoughts and rambling? I guess it's

57:23

Twitter. I'm not I'm not terribly

57:25

active on social media, but it's

57:27

mostly Twitter. Yeah, we'll get a

57:29

link in the show notes. We'll

57:32

get a link in the show

57:34

now so people can follow you

57:36

there and thanks again good sir

57:38

we appreciate you. Good talk with

57:40

you guys after a couple of

57:42

years. Yeah. Okay now we can

57:44

get back to football talk if

57:46

you want to on the bad

57:48

sports ball podcast. Welcome to the

57:50

bad sports ball. Hey if you

57:52

do actually if you do like

57:54

sports, me in a couple of

57:56

friends are doing one called the

57:58

fan base dot i.o because I

58:00

realized I was just always staying

58:02

in my house too much and

58:04

never seeing my friends and so

58:06

I was like I need so

58:08

this is kind of fun I

58:10

got one of my friends Lance

58:12

I've known since I was 10 right and

58:14

that is crazy he's like ridiculous when

58:17

it comes to sports betting his he's

58:19

like 70 plus percent winning on this

58:21

whatever he does research on it's really

58:23

obnoxious so I said you need to

58:26

come on and talk about it And

58:28

then Moser I've known here for about

58:30

30 years, he's like a comedian, he's

58:32

one of the funniest dudes I know.

58:34

And then Marty, Marty is one of

58:37

the guys who was the co-founders of

58:39

the Save Our Chiefs movement that I

58:41

was a part of back in 2012

58:43

when they awarded us Super Bowl Rings.

58:46

So it's pretty crazy. So we're

58:48

launching the Super Bowl rings. So

58:50

it's pretty crazy. So we're launching

58:52

the fan base ball most of

58:54

the time. You need to up your

58:56

bad, your, um, smart assery game

58:58

here. Okay, I'm gonna try. That was

59:01

great speaking with William again.

59:03

And so he's saying, you

59:05

know, by his estimates, Bitcoin

59:07

should hit 300,000 and he's

59:09

a little sad about Ethereum.

59:11

Yeah. Seems right. It seems right. I

59:13

think that I don't think Ethereum will ever

59:16

see 10k again. I don't think it'll happen

59:18

because Solan has taken all the liquidity because

59:20

it's never it's never seen 10k. What do

59:22

you mean again? I'm saying I'm just saying

59:24

the thought of it hitting 10k is not

59:26

going to happen because in the days of

59:29

Ethereum, Ethereum was the only game in town

59:31

besides from Bitcoin, right, whenever it was doing

59:33

that pump, all those NFTs, they were all

59:35

on for the most part on Ethereum, on

59:37

Ethereum, the big ones, the big ones. Cryptopunks,

59:39

board apes, pudgy penguins, all those, the ICO

59:42

days, everything was on Ethereum. And

59:44

now all that liquidity has gone

59:46

over to Solana. And so I

59:48

think that if Wax wants to

59:51

do something and make it fun,

59:53

which is the collectible game, memes

59:55

and NFTs, they gotta do something

59:57

big with Solana and connect the...

1:00:00

somewhere with that. And I hope

1:00:02

they figure it out because we

1:00:04

are big wax holders and big

1:00:06

fans of that ecosystem. I did

1:00:08

not get the answers. I was looking

1:00:10

for there and I wanted to,

1:00:12

you know, make sure we could talk

1:00:15

about some other things as well.

1:00:17

I wanted to press them a little

1:00:19

harder on on wax because, you

1:00:21

know, with the market cap being so

1:00:23

low, it's like, where does it

1:00:25

go from here? And I wanted

1:00:27

to ask him if he regretted going

1:00:30

from an ERC of wax. That

1:00:32

probably well that was that was but

1:00:34

EOS looked like it was going

1:00:36

to be the big hot thing and

1:00:38

you couldn't have done what you

1:00:40

did with wax packs on the or

1:00:43

C20 at the time because it's

1:00:45

just there wasn't a side chain they

1:00:47

did it yeah so I don't

1:00:49

know what it is and it's all

1:00:51

a learning game in the game

1:00:53

of crypto and it's my regret is

1:00:56

that we didn't you know dive

1:00:58

into more of those big NFT projects

1:01:00

because there's no reason why we

1:01:02

shouldn't have had ten board tapes each

1:01:04

you know I mean because we

1:01:06

were we launched NFTs before anybody was

1:01:09

talking about NFTs I just sort

1:01:11

of stayed away from all those

1:01:13

and to this day I think the

1:01:15

reason NFTs on Ethereum popped so

1:01:17

big was because of Gary V having

1:01:19

that zoom call telling all these

1:01:21

guys to go out and buy crypto

1:01:24

punks and they all bought up

1:01:26

and raised popped off the price and

1:01:28

then next thing you know he

1:01:30

launches his deal very smart marketer that

1:01:32

Gary V guy. Appreciate you guys.

1:01:34

Thanks for listening watching tuning in being

1:01:37

a part of our little family

1:01:39

here at the Republic of bad cryptography

1:01:41

We will catch you the next

1:01:43

time we catch you which will be

1:01:46

next week because we do weekly

1:01:48

shows until then stay back the

1:01:59

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