0:00

Please don't push me Please

0:02

don't push me But y'all push me

0:04

Now we got dwellers from Cali to

0:06

flat Bush B Now they got heat

0:08

on they feet that say press B

0:11

And now we so deep in the streets

0:13

y'all can't stress me Can't curse me Then

0:16

bless me I'm crucifying my flesh

0:19

That's less me SAT from preaching

0:21

Can't test me Atheists are

0:24

now believing That bless me

0:26

Yeah We got the basement

0:28

replacing Any of those roly pursuits that

0:31

y'all chasing Any of those

0:33

trials and tests that y'all facing Any

0:35

of the relationships that y'all changing

0:38

We rearranging Making this shame shift Giving

0:40

Satan back what's his That's the blame

0:43

shift Rise up and walk commands That's

0:45

the lame shift Cheat coats for living

0:47

this life That's the game shift All

0:49

on your shoe a man The rest

0:52

is manure man I'm dying daily so

0:54

I rise up a pure man Pressing

0:56

B daily so my sins looking fewer

0:58

man Washing the blood to my sins

1:01

down the sewer man Yeah So press

1:03

B with me And let's

1:05

let whatever go be just B Uh

1:08

Yeah So press B with me

1:10

And let's let whatever go be

1:12

just B Welcome

1:17

to the basement ladies and gentlemen

1:19

I am your host Tim Ross I

1:22

hope you guys are all doing well Shout

1:24

out to all of my dwellers from all around

1:26

the world People all over the world Still waiting

1:28

for somebody to know what that

1:30

is from But all of my

1:32

dwellers from all over the world I appreciate you all

1:35

Hope you guys are doing well Um And

1:37

my B-Siders For everybody that has literally pressed

1:40

B Uh And downloaded

1:42

that B-Sight app Thank you for taking a safe

1:44

space and making it a safe place Uh

1:47

I appreciate you Um And

1:49

I appreciate your support Like you just allow us

1:51

to be able to have A show

1:54

that we can continue to hold space

1:56

for people And uh to

1:58

help people grow and develop and

2:00

mature in their walk

2:02

with Jesus, or even to know if they

2:04

want to rock with Jesus, right? People got

2:06

to make a decision. Like, this is not

2:08

something that you

2:11

can force upon a person. The Holy Spirit has

2:13

to lead somebody to Jesus, and they have to

2:15

be convicted to want to follow

2:17

him. And if that's not what they

2:19

want to do, then we can't force them to do

2:22

nothing. That's just that. Um,

2:24

I'm back with a dear friend of mine,

2:26

one of my homies. Um,

2:29

and we just get to chop it up.

2:31

I'm grateful that he's

2:34

already been on. And

2:37

I don't know what we're getting into today, but I know it's going

2:39

to be good. It's church hurt him.

2:41

Oh, it's true. You already have a theme.

2:45

I'm gonna get a lot of DMS from

2:48

your listeners that are going to be saying

2:50

they're praying for me either passive aggressively or

2:52

sincerely is kind of how I see my

2:55

Instagram looking after this. Yep. Uh,

2:57

yeah, but how are you, buddy? It's good to see you. I

2:59

love you. I don't want to like open all

3:01

like, uh, Debbie Downer, but I also,

3:04

I love how you prefaced, um,

3:08

even if you don't rock with Jesus, because

3:10

that's one of the things that I've really

3:13

been struggling with. I've been

3:15

in like a huge faith crisis, life crisis,

3:17

all the crisis. Um, and

3:19

I feel, I feel like when I

3:21

first became Christian, I was like, Christianity

3:24

makes you a happier person. And then

3:26

like a year in, I'm like, Christianity

3:28

has made me mentally ill. Like, I

3:30

feel like I'm losing my mind. Yep.

3:32

And, um, and so I

3:35

really love that you said that because, you know,

3:39

man, I mean, I, I've been

3:42

talking about this a lot on

3:44

my new podcast and on Instagram, and

3:46

I lost like 4,000 followers

3:49

on Instagram, talking about some of my issues

3:52

with the church and

3:54

the, I think

3:57

the people who have reached out that have also been pushed away

3:59

from the church. church, that's

4:02

one of the things that they cite, essentially,

4:05

where you hear Jesus,

4:08

and you see Jesus going to the

4:10

misfits, the broken, the outcasts, the sex

4:13

workers, the blah, blah, blah. And

4:15

you go, and he's flipping

4:17

tables and doing all that stuff when it comes to

4:20

the fair. You know the

4:22

story. And then

4:24

you meet Christians in real life or

4:27

in internet comment sections. And

4:30

you go, oh, you're doing the thing

4:33

that you're like, they're

4:37

mad at you for being an outcast, a

4:39

weirdo, a sex worker, you know, whatever. And

4:43

claiming this sort of self-righteousness, which you

4:46

can't do in a comment section. And

4:49

so what we've heard from people, you

4:51

know, we have a new show, and the show is

4:53

really new. But

4:56

we got a lot of messages, and those

4:58

messages are like, essentially, I

5:02

feel like we're kind of like a gateway drug

5:04

to Jesus. We're like, because we say the same

5:07

thing. Right. We're not, you

5:10

have to, you have to quote scripture if you're going

5:12

to listen to this show, or you have to have

5:14

it figured out, or you have to have, you know,

5:16

kicked porn, or you have to have, it's just kind

5:18

of like, hey, we

5:21

just want to be cool to everybody. And I think

5:23

because of that and because of what you're doing on

5:25

this show, I think

5:28

you can, you're going to help

5:30

so many more people than

5:33

just being the, hey, we're the Christians, we got it

5:35

all figured out. I met my wife when we were

5:37

both nine, and it's

5:39

been perfect ever since. Nine

5:43

is wild. When

5:46

you know, you know. And

5:48

we, but I think that's important.

5:50

And it was nice for

5:52

me, because definitely during this like faith crisis

5:54

phase, I was just like, I don't trust any Christians.

5:57

I don't trust my friends. I was like, you're all

5:59

full of shit. I'm out. And

6:02

so even hearing you say that up

6:04

top was like, you know, a very

6:06

nice sort of reminder that it's like,

6:08

okay, we can still we can still do

6:10

this. Well, okay. So ladies

6:12

and gentlemen, I present to some and

6:15

introduced to others. Jamie Kilstein

6:17

is back in the building with us. Oh, that was

6:19

my intro. I should have said that I was on

6:21

Conan. Follow me on Instagram. No, Jamie Kilstein. No,

6:23

no, no. I just I just wanted to make sure they know

6:26

exactly who I'm talking to. For those of you. Yeah. For those

6:28

of us that for those who have

6:30

unfollowed me on Instagram, allow

6:32

me to reintroduce myself. My name is Pong.

6:35

I so what's the name

6:37

of the what's the name

6:39

of the podcast? Yeah. So

6:41

the podcast I do with

6:43

my wife and

6:45

it's called Trauma Bonding with Jamie and Alex. It's a

6:47

dope name. Thank you. You were the first person I told

6:49

and you were so hyped on that name that we didn't

6:52

even make a list of names. I

6:55

still have that text conversation saved. Yeah, it's trauma

6:57

bonding with Jamie and Alex. It's

7:00

on iTunes and Spotify, but you

7:02

can go to youtube.com/at trauma bonding

7:04

pod. And and then

7:06

my Instagram where I do all the Christian

7:08

sketches and podcast clips is at

7:10

the Jamie Kilstein. When we just started a

7:12

page round, but I feel like I got

7:15

to earn I got to make them like

7:17

me before I say donate. So right now

7:19

you can go to trauma bonding. And then if

7:21

if I say anything where you go, we need

7:23

that in the Christian world, it

7:26

is not easy to make money when

7:28

you're like, I have nuanced thoughts. Right.

7:30

It's so much easier to be. I'm

7:32

the liberal atheist or I'm the right

7:35

wing Christian. Correct. Put me in a

7:37

box. When people go, oh, you're a

7:39

Christian now. You just trying to get

7:41

that Christian money, folks, I wish it

7:44

is the exact opposite. It is gone. No, no,

7:46

nothing but downhill. That Christian money is

7:49

hilarious. Yeah, that Christian money. We

7:51

know who has it all and it's not me. And

7:54

so patreon.com/Jamie Hilstein, if you

7:57

support the message that you

7:59

will hear. today. Well

8:01

before you even elaborate on the message that

8:03

we will hear today, I want

8:06

to say and encourage

8:08

everybody that's listening to The

8:10

Basement or that Rocks With The B-side,

8:13

you have people you

8:15

know that talk like Jamie Kilstein.

8:18

Oh that's cool. That think

8:20

like Jamie Kilstein. That

8:23

hold reservations like

8:26

Jamie Kilstein. That

8:28

are processing like Jamie Kilstein and

8:31

so whereas the audience

8:34

for The Basement might be processing

8:37

one way, it's just a little bit

8:39

of a degree of nuance before

8:42

somebody would be like I actually

8:44

need I okay I rock with The Basement

8:46

but I need somebody to listen to Trauma

8:49

Bondi. That's cool. Because Trauma Bonding like I

8:51

like I have five friends that are where

8:54

Jamie is. Yeah. And they're not where Tim

8:56

is and if you're saying you're a gateway

8:58

right then there's levels to this. That's

9:01

really cool because I never thought of

9:03

that. I only thought of you

9:06

know I guess we're just for

9:08

the delinquents who have been screwed

9:10

over or who are

9:12

just angry or whatever and you're right

9:15

like I mean one dude the amount

9:17

of like low-key DMs that I

9:19

get from like pastors you know that are like I

9:21

wish I could say that. But

9:24

also I never thought of yeah the friends

9:26

that you can't reach the friends

9:28

that you're shocked aren't coming to Jesus because

9:30

you lecture them every time they like meditate

9:32

or like smoke pot. You're

9:35

not gonna convince them. That's right. That

9:37

way in fact it's gonna drive for

9:39

me at least it's gonna drive me

9:41

further away. Correct. Where I go well I don't

9:43

want to be with these people who are just

9:45

judging and judging and judging me and even like

9:48

dude all of those like low-key

9:50

judgments where even the like you

9:53

know I hate the sin love

9:55

the sinner. Yeah it's just like

9:57

you saying that if I post

9:59

something about gay rights and you write that

10:01

in my comment section and you were

10:03

so adamant to write hate

10:07

the sin, love the sinner

10:09

about gay people you don't know to a

10:11

comedian you don't know. Do

10:14

you actually love gay people? Right. You

10:16

know what I mean? Do you even know

10:18

any? Do you know any? What made you

10:20

write that comment? Was it to reach out

10:22

and help or minister to gay people? Or

10:25

was it that it's just an easy fucking

10:27

target? So

10:29

I'm even tired of that

10:31

stuff pushes people away even though

10:33

you think that's me being nice

10:36

and tolerant. No, it's not, man.

10:38

No, well, those type

10:40

of statements come when

10:44

you're talking about an issue and not about a person. That's

10:47

good, yeah. If homosexuality is an issue

10:49

that you feel like needs to, like

10:52

traffic is an issue. Right. That's

10:55

a legitimate issue that needs to be resolved.

10:58

Like, hey, I'm waiting for the Metroplex. Why

11:01

don't you just pour all the concrete at

11:03

once? You know what I'm

11:05

saying? I'm waiting for the clickbait

11:07

YouTuber. There's a thumbnail next week.

11:10

Jim Ross compares gay people to

11:12

traffic. Yeah, like, you know what

11:14

I'm saying? Like, it's like, okay,

11:16

that's a legitimate issue that needs to be

11:18

resolved. Homosexuality is an issue.

11:21

It's a person. It's a person. You're

11:24

talking about a person having gay sex. Say

11:26

that. And if the thought of that makes

11:28

you have a seizure, then maybe you're

11:30

not ready to have this conversation at all.

11:33

So just stay away from the whole topic. Sure. And

11:35

the comment section. Sure. And anybody talking

11:37

about it. Sure, yeah. I mean, you know, that

11:40

was the thing that, I've

11:42

had a lot of stuff in my personal life dealing

11:44

with Christians and stuff like

11:46

that. But when I went

11:48

off the deep end was losing

11:53

4,000 followers for defending gay rights.

11:56

And, you know, the... So

12:01

I said this on the first episode, but for people who are

12:04

like, who is this? So I used

12:06

to, when I first heard of

12:08

Jesus, so I was raised by a mom who only

12:10

prayed if she lost her keys, and then my dad

12:12

was Jewish. I mean, we never went to synagogue, but

12:14

we got Christmas and we got Hanukkah. And

12:18

I believed in God the way

12:20

that every college-aged donor

12:23

believes in God, you know? I'm spiritual, but

12:25

not religious. Look at the stars. Holy

12:28

shit, this is nuts. There's probably a God. And

12:30

then I saw the Grateful Dead a lot. And

12:33

the first time I

12:36

heard Jesus mention a lot wasn't

12:41

about him feeding the poor, wasn't

12:43

about social justice, wasn't about, certainly

12:45

wasn't about love. It was

12:48

when I was in my early 20s and I

12:50

was becoming sort of politically aware, and

12:52

it was the Bush administration. And so the first

12:54

time I heard about Jesus was

12:57

the Bush administration, which at the time,

12:59

I mean, people were calling the

13:01

war on Iraq a crusade. So it was

13:03

like, Jesus, bombing Muslims. And

13:06

then that's when same-sex marriage became a

13:08

very mainstream issue. And I

13:10

was living in New York, and I knew

13:12

gay couples who were more monogamous and

13:14

loving and kind than a lot of

13:17

straight couples I knew. So

13:19

I go, oh, you wanna stop Charles?

13:23

You know, my sweet roommate

13:25

who, that

13:28

seemed so ridiculous. And then at the same time,

13:30

you're hearing stories about closeted gay

13:32

pastors who were like, or these politicians

13:34

who were pushing this anti-gay legislation, and

13:37

you just go, great, church is a

13:39

sham. That's something I can cross off

13:41

my list early in my 20s, no

13:43

need. And then if anyone wants

13:45

to go back and listen to the first episode we did,

13:48

I year, I

13:50

mean, decades later came to

13:52

Jesus after so many ups

13:54

and downs in my life. And it wasn't a desperation

13:57

come to Jesus. It wasn't. During

14:00

one of those downs. Yeah, it was during

14:02

and up Yeah, and I was just around

14:04

a bunch of really good people who loved

14:07

Jesus and I became sort of spiritually awakened

14:10

which sorry guys started with mushrooms

14:13

and I

14:15

went to Google like Christians and mushrooms because

14:17

I almost wanted permission and every video looked

14:19

like fucking reefer madness in the 50s like

14:22

mushrooms lead to jazz music and that'll lead

14:24

to hanging out with Colored people and it

14:27

was just like so awful and so we

14:29

did an episode of trauma on the audit

14:31

But you know, I did mushrooms having no

14:34

No want to come to God I

14:37

did mushrooms when I was living in Arizona during covid and I

14:39

had a breakup and my cat died and I was sad and

14:41

I was like I got to learn how to be alone Someone

14:44

gave me these I'm gonna do these and

14:46

then cut to three hours later I'm on

14:48

my knees in front of a mountain with

14:50

my arms open going. I am open. I

14:52

am open. I am open and then I

14:54

go Wonder what I'm open to

14:56

I go I guess God and

14:58

then that led me to start reading Spirituality

15:01

and again, I'm staying so far away

15:03

from Christianity Yeah, because the only thing

15:06

I and a lot of people associate

15:08

Christianity with is bigotry and war and

15:10

and that's it Yeah, so I'm reading

15:12

everything but yep and

15:17

It's funny the first time

15:19

this year I got Shit

15:22

from Christians on Instagram after building kind

15:24

of a Christian audience was when I

15:28

Made a joke about how I was reading a Buddhism book and

15:31

people even got mad at that And

15:33

I was like that was wild because and I want to

15:35

say this It was

15:37

those spiritual books that led me to Jesus

15:39

because a lot of these sort of Dualistic,

15:43

you know kind of Buddhist Hindu just

15:46

spiritual people and I know there's

15:48

a lot wrong with that community as well But

15:51

a lot of them were it was the first

15:53

time I heard people talking about Jesus in a

15:55

loving way They were also talking

15:57

about Buddha in a loving way, but there's a

15:59

spiritual writer Ramdas who I love and he's so sweet

16:01

and he passed a couple years ago and He

16:05

would talk about Christ with

16:07

such with as much reverence as

16:09

he talked about you know Buddha or his guru

16:11

in India or whatever and this was a guy

16:13

who was a Pioneer of

16:16

the psychedelic movement went to India to

16:18

study Hinduism did stuff with some of

16:20

the most famous Buddhists in the world

16:22

and like his love for Jesus was

16:24

so much that that is actually what

16:26

opened me up to well even

16:30

like tippy-toeing yeah With

16:32

Jesus and so the reason I'm saying that

16:34

is because I think there are people listening

16:37

who if they're atheist

16:39

friend Or if someone started reading Buddhism

16:42

or was in the new age section

16:44

of a bookstore or God forbid talked

16:46

about mushrooms or you know We'd even

16:48

for their PTSD or for their anxiety

16:50

or whatever. They would go that just

16:53

it's all demonic All of

16:55

that I mean I wore a jujitsu shirt that

16:57

had tarot cards on it I

17:00

don't know anything about tarot cards, but I had people who

17:02

listen to the show writing in there like you can't wear

17:04

that That's demonic. I go my jujitsu t-shirt and

17:07

so the reason I'm saying that is because Sure,

17:11

some people may use anything for

17:14

nefarious people use Christianity To

17:17

to get rich people use Christianity

17:19

to wield power people use Christianity

17:22

to hurt women people you know

17:24

as they also

17:26

use new age stuff or whatever and but

17:30

Just a step further that I don't know if

17:32

it's ever been talked about on a podcast It's

17:35

also what brings it what's it is what brought

17:37

me to Jesus I would not have come to

17:39

Jesus if any of you brought me to your

17:41

church no matter how cool your church is ten

17:43

years ago Nope. Yeah,

17:46

no. Yeah, I would have been so suspicious

17:48

I would have been and so

17:50

that opened me up to it. Yeah, even

17:52

though it wasn't Christians

17:56

so here's what I'm having a hard

17:58

time understanding about people

18:01

that would be upset with your

18:03

path or your journey. Like

18:05

people that are born and raised

18:07

in Muslim countries grow

18:10

up Muslim, that's all they know and the Holy Spirit

18:12

brings them to Jesus. Like

18:15

we wanna parade them. This

18:18

guy has great testimonies, she has great. Somebody

18:21

that was born and raised in

18:23

a culture where

18:25

Buddhism was the

18:28

religion of that culture and then

18:30

they give their life to Jesus, they're like, oh, that person got a testimony.

18:32

We gotta get them on, let's have

18:34

an interview with them. They used to be on 700 Club.

18:37

They used to be Buddhists. They

18:41

had statues everywhere, but now they

18:43

love God. And here you

18:45

are reading a Buddhist book and it's like you're

18:49

going the wrong way. Well, here's the thing. I

18:52

don't understand the impatience.

18:54

Yeah, I love that we're 20 minutes in

18:56

and we're getting, so

18:59

I didn't know if I was gonna say this, but something

19:01

I thought about that on a

19:03

personal level hurt me very

19:05

bad and I'm gonna try to say it measured.

19:10

How about you don't? I always remember

19:12

that like sobbing, which

19:14

is. Well, you're safe here, just know

19:16

that. That happened with me. That

19:19

happened with me. Do you know how

19:23

thrilled everyone was

19:25

to get former atheist Jamie

19:27

Kilstein and

19:30

how somebody as insecure as me

19:34

finally felt accepted, finally

19:36

felt welcomed. And

19:39

it kinda seems like I

19:41

was a notch in some people's fucking belt or

19:43

it's like I fucked an atheist. You know what

19:45

I mean? Yes. And because

19:48

here's what kills me. When I came

19:50

on this show and I said,

19:53

I cheated, I struggled with

19:55

porn. I was canceled. I

19:58

was an atheist. I said, fuck God.

20:00

on television, all

20:03

this stuff. And now I love

20:05

Jesus. And now all the struggles

20:08

I was having with before are so minor compared to

20:10

the struggles I'm having now. I was like, I canceled

20:12

a comedy show because I wanted to feed homeless people

20:14

on Sixth Street with sandwiches and be more like Christ.

20:16

And I don't know what to do with my life.

20:18

And then I end up briefly doing a little Christian

20:20

podcast with you and all this stuff. They

20:24

loved that. Tell me more about the porn. Tell me

20:26

more about the affair because I wanna cheat on my

20:29

wife. And I look at porn and all this stuff.

20:31

But then when I go

20:33

and they're like, Jesus found you. The

20:35

way the Holy Spirit is using you, Jamie. I

20:37

mean, Michael Todd said that to me. The way the

20:40

Holy Spirit is using you, like, devil's gonna come

20:42

after you, but like something special is happening. Something special

20:44

is happening. And then I post that

20:46

gay people are people and that

20:48

maybe Christians should be calling out

20:50

predators in the church

20:53

more than pride flags. And

20:55

suddenly the person they loved, the person

20:58

that they were like, yay to porn,

21:00

yay to this. I defend gay people.

21:02

And those same fucking people are in

21:05

my comment section. And they

21:07

go, this guy's just a new Christian. He doesn't know

21:09

what he's talking about. You

21:11

know, he's applauding

21:13

depravity, all this stuff.

21:15

Unfollowed, you know, oh, how dare

21:17

you? You think you're a Christian

21:19

now? Because blah, blah, blah. These

21:21

same people. So my theory is

21:23

they love hearing about the stuff

21:27

that they struggle with because

21:29

it validates them. But

21:31

they never sucked the dick before. So they go,

21:33

I don't get that. And so

21:35

instead of looking inward and instead of

21:37

looking at the things that

21:40

they need to fix with

21:42

themselves, just like I need to look at the things

21:44

I need to fix with myself, lashing

21:47

out gay people super easy. Because like you said,

21:49

they might not even know a gay person. And

21:52

so that's how they prove they're a good Christian.

21:54

And then when they hear my story, or

21:56

when they hear you talk about porn, they

21:59

sort of like, they go, wow, this is such like

22:01

edgy Christian stuff. And it is, but

22:03

it shouldn't be, but it is. And

22:06

do they hear you talk about porn or me talk

22:08

about it? And then do they stop? Or

22:10

do they hear us and go, well, they were

22:13

fine. I'll be fine. How many

22:15

pastors have given an anti-porn talk and

22:18

then done them part two, where they were like, hey, I started watching

22:20

porn again. Or my wife went away for the

22:22

weekend and like I did it once and it was fine. But

22:24

I don't know. And that's not

22:26

me casting judgment. That's just me being like, I

22:29

don't know. And so

22:31

that I think is what hurt so

22:34

badly. It's like when I was quote

22:36

unquote towing the line because

22:38

I was new bright eyed Christian

22:42

and everything was Jesus and I hadn't been

22:44

hurt at all. And it was just like

22:46

everything was good. And if people could just

22:48

see their life would get this. And

22:51

then the second I was like, hey, this part's

22:53

fucked up. Suddenly all the people who were like,

22:55

yes, new Christian. They were like, he's not really

22:57

one of us. And

23:01

that feels bad. And

23:03

that makes me wanna walk away from all of it.

23:06

And then people go, but it's not people. That's

23:09

not God. That's just people. I go, right, but

23:11

if you walk into a Starbucks and every time

23:13

you walk into Starbucks, someone pisses in your drink,

23:16

you're gonna wonder what management looks like. That's

23:18

right. You know? And

23:22

again, I'm speaking wildly.

23:27

Hashtag not all Christians, right? There

23:29

are so many amazing, I mean, God,

23:32

if the only good Christian I

23:34

knew was your wife, who if you heard

23:36

the conversation we had downstairs, completely life changing,

23:38

the reason I'm not crying up here,

23:41

it's like if she was the only one, that's enough

23:43

for me to be like, Jesus is good. However,

23:47

when the vocal majority

23:49

is so what I believe

23:52

as a new fake Christian, kind

23:54

of antithetical to, at the very least,

23:56

the message of love. I mean, there are people

23:58

in my comments section being like, oh, he's one

24:01

of the... those Bibles love Christians. Like

24:03

in like parentheses, like making fun of it,

24:05

like that's a thing we make fun of.

24:07

Like, oh, he's one of those fucking people

24:09

that thinks Jesus was loving. What

24:12

are you doing, man? What are you doing? Okay,

24:16

so let's, let's

24:19

marinate on several things. Sure.

24:24

The first being, it

24:27

was like I summoned her. I was

24:29

complimenting you. Of

24:31

course I was. I always am. Juliet's

24:34

making cafe for

24:37

everybody. But

24:39

it's Cubano. Un

24:43

cafe es Cubano. All

24:47

right, so we're just, it's just a coffee house

24:49

now. I'm

24:54

lamenting. How

25:00

familiar this story is. Really?

25:03

Yeah, I am. Like I'm

25:05

hearing you talk, Jamie, and I wish I could

25:07

be like, dude, you

25:10

just had the worst

25:12

luck of all time. Like you just met, a

25:18

dozen of like the worst Christians of all time. We're

25:21

not all like that. Or, hey,

25:24

those 4,000 people that unfollowed you,

25:26

those 4,000 are hypocrites. Right,

25:30

right, right, right. But unfortunately,

25:36

what you're experiencing is all too

25:38

familiar. And everybody I talk to

25:41

about church hurt has

25:43

this kind of story. Yeah. I

25:46

talked to somebody recently who was

25:48

like, I

25:51

identify as someone

25:53

from the LGBTQIA plus community,

25:56

and I was gonna

25:58

marry my girlfriend. And my

26:00

pastor said that we were going to hell. And

26:03

so I broke up with her and now

26:05

I'm devastated. And I have a

26:08

very strained relationship with God. I'm

26:10

like, I probably would too if I walked

26:12

in with my girlfriend or my boyfriend and

26:15

they said, you're going to hell. But

26:18

one of the things like this,

26:20

there seems to be, and my

26:23

disclaimer before I go in with Jamie

26:25

is that we're both comedians,

26:27

all right? We both have comedic minds. So if

26:30

whatever spins we have, or you might

26:32

not think this is humorous or things

26:35

shouldn't be joke like this, but if you have

26:37

trauma, you think I'm funny. And

26:40

you think Tim is funny. Comedians know

26:42

how to take traumatic experiences and bring levity

26:44

to it so that we won't be

26:46

slicing our wrist. If you really want

26:48

to know why the best comedians are

26:52

the best comedians. Comedy is a coping mechanism,

26:54

people. It's not an art. Yeah, exactly. So

26:56

I say that to say, I just

27:00

wonder how many people

27:02

have walked in, how many straight people have

27:04

walked in that door that have been having

27:06

sex before marriage that the same pastor said

27:08

you guys are about to bust hell wide

27:11

open. Oh, most of them? Right? Like y'all

27:13

are fornicating. The Holy Spirit gave

27:15

me discernment. Bust hell. I know that's so

27:17

funny. Right, right. I didn't need to see

27:19

these visible signs, right? Because

27:22

it's so like, I

27:25

think, OK, thank

27:27

you, Holy Spirit. This is OK. This is how I

27:29

feel about Christians going after

27:31

gay people who have not confessed

27:33

Jesus' Lord. Yeah, OK, yeah. It's

27:36

Will Smith slapping Chris Rock. That's

27:38

good. That's

27:41

how I feel about a Christian

27:44

going after the gay

27:46

community. It's Will Smith slapping Chris

27:48

Rock. You know. You're

27:51

picking on somebody that you know you

27:53

can beat up. Sure. Yeah.

27:56

That you know you can tear down.

27:58

Yep. That you know that you can

28:00

mentally. wear down. You ain't going after,

28:02

like you said, predators. Nope. You're not

28:04

going after the pastor that got a

28:06

side chick. Nope. Who's turned out the

28:08

choir boy. Yep. And

28:11

you're doing that with the Bible as your

28:13

backup. How gross is that? Yes. As you're

28:15

going, well, the Bible says it. Okay.

28:18

And you know, two

28:20

things that I just thought of. One,

28:23

the reason I loved and recommended, although

28:25

I don't know if this episode

28:27

is the best to promote his book, but my friend

28:29

Ryan, who you had on the show, who talked about

28:31

singleness, the reason I love him so much. And

28:34

I think the way I pitched him to you is

28:36

when I was single, I looked

28:38

up every single sermon that has

28:40

been given and so many

28:43

of them. And so Ryan, if you didn't

28:45

hear his episode on the basement, you know,

28:48

mid 30s, never had

28:50

sex, never been in a

28:52

relationship, good-looking dude, funny, charismatic

28:55

writer, runs like

28:57

easily. Yeah. Every, he

28:59

would never say this. I can say it. Every

29:01

girl like wants to, is like, I'm

29:04

gonna be the one to marry him at our

29:06

church. Let's make it a little bit more real.

29:08

I'm gonna take it for a drink. I

29:11

found a unicorn of a, I found a

29:13

white male in America who's never been with

29:15

anybody. I'm about

29:17

to bust that open. Well, you're about to lose

29:19

4,000 followers on Instagram. And

29:22

so, what I, so I love that

29:25

so much because he can talk about

29:27

singleness from a real honest place. And

29:29

so many times you hear these pastors

29:31

where they're like, when they give

29:33

their singleness sermon, they're like now, you know,

29:35

in college, I was sleeping around.

29:37

I mean, I was, I was really getting after it

29:39

if you know what I mean. I mean, some of

29:41

these girls I was with, it was great. But then

29:43

I found Jesus and a day later I found my

29:45

wife and thank God she was a virgin and we

29:47

got married a week later. And now we have five

29:49

kids. How come they never find a hoe? Right?

29:52

Right. Cause they were hoes. How

29:55

come they never find a hoe? Right. Like,

29:57

like with a body count. triple

30:00

theirs. What if, I mean, I don't even know, now

30:02

you would know more than me, but

30:04

what would be fascinating, because we love, just like

30:06

they loved me with the porn and the cheating

30:08

and stuff, we love the male

30:11

pastors who give that. Oh, I

30:14

slept with hundreds of girls with that. I found my

30:16

wife, and has a female ever given that? Same

30:23

sermon. Has a female been like? They won't let

30:26

her. That would, right? No,

30:28

and I'm gonna tell you why they won't

30:30

let her, because then every woman in the

30:32

church feels threatened, and

30:35

then every man in the church is

30:38

horny. Is horny. Right? And

30:42

obviously this is a presumption. Yeah, sure.

30:45

We had somebody on the pod who

30:49

was sex trafficked, but also was

30:51

a high class escort. And she literally

30:53

said, I go into green rooms, and

30:57

I can, I mean, she's been with thousands

31:00

of married men. You can catch

31:02

a vibe. That's most, you know, so she walks

31:05

in and she goes, oh, you just drank me

31:07

in like a cool glass of water. You

31:10

have a lust problem, right? And then

31:12

she's looking at like the pastor's wife, and she's like,

31:14

I'm not trying to bone your husband. Right. Your

31:16

husband's just a freak.

31:18

Right. You know what I mean?

31:21

I'm former. She had this,

31:23

dude, she had this incredible revelation on

31:26

Rahab the prostitute. Okay. My

31:30

brain almost exploded. I'm not gonna

31:32

do it justice, but in a nutshell, she

31:34

basically said that the

31:37

very first city that

31:41

was conquered en

31:43

route to the promised land for

31:46

the Church of Israel was Jericho. Rahab

31:49

was in Jericho. So prostitution and

31:51

sex slavery was happening in Jericho.

31:53

The king of Jericho is Rahab's

31:56

pimp, and

31:58

she helps. two men

32:01

overthrow Jericho, which

32:03

means God wants to eradicate

32:06

slavery en route to the Promised

32:08

Land. And then she goes, but

32:11

she wasn't just saved. She

32:14

was accepted by the Jewish community and

32:17

a man loved her enough to marry

32:19

her, knowing that she had the

32:21

highest body count out of everybody

32:23

in the town. And that woman gave

32:25

birth to a man that knew how

32:28

to love a woman that

32:30

did not know his God, which

32:32

was Rahab. Not

32:36

Rahab, Ruth. Because

32:38

she gives birth to Boaz. And

32:41

Boaz can now go, oh, a

32:43

Canaanite woman that needs to be

32:45

redeemed? My mama was redeemed. Wow.

32:49

Only Gentile could do that. That

32:51

is beautiful. It is. So

32:53

how in the world? I know. Well,

32:57

and I wanted to circle back

33:00

to the gay thing is the

33:02

person you were talking to, right?

33:04

Who broke up with her girlfriend.

33:08

Something we don't think about either is... So when we're

33:12

talking about marriage, I

33:15

think it's a very fair conversation

33:17

to talk about... I say this

33:19

word wrong. Permiss-cuity.

33:22

Permiss-cuity? Fucking around.

33:24

Yeah. Because gay

33:27

people do it. We do it. And

33:33

some people say it's more prevalent

33:35

in the gay community. Great. We can talk about

33:37

that sex issue and we can talk about not

33:39

in a shame-y way, but, oh, well,

33:41

when I was sleeping around, I felt really bad about

33:43

myself. And when I was sleeping around, I was trying

33:45

to fill a hole. And when I was sleeping around,

33:47

I was trying to get

33:49

a dopamine rush or I was trying to

33:51

numb out or I was trying to... Cool.

33:53

That is a conversation where we are trying

33:56

to better ourselves, right?

34:01

trying not to watch porn, it's not

34:03

because I'm afraid I'm gonna go to

34:05

hell. It's, oh, you know what? God

34:07

has showed me a better way and

34:09

I know when I don't do this

34:11

I'm actually happier and I'm more confident

34:13

and when I go to it I

34:15

probably should be going to something healthier

34:17

because I'm acting out. Correct. With

34:21

marriage, which is so beautiful

34:23

as me and you both know, imagine

34:28

like a gay kid who is

34:30

raised in whatever Iowa or

34:33

something and his family

34:37

is very religious. He goes to one of

34:39

those churches where you're gonna go to hell.

34:41

Maybe he gets abused, right? Maybe

34:44

he comes out and gets beaten

34:46

up all the time.

34:48

Maybe he gets hate crime. Maybe he stays in the

34:50

closet and he tries to kill himself. Maybe he gets

34:52

sent to that, you know,

34:54

wildly popular conversion camp that shut down

34:56

because people were killing themselves. Maybe he

35:00

becomes addicted to drugs. Maybe he does

35:02

start fucking around and he's going to

35:05

clubs and he's doing drugs and he's

35:07

having sex. Not because that's just what

35:09

gay people do because gay people are

35:11

slutty but because he has been abused

35:13

and that's what abused people do and

35:15

that's straight people do when they have

35:17

dysfunctional families or they have abuse in their

35:20

life and then moves to

35:22

a city, joins

35:24

a fucking theater camp,

35:27

falls in love. He's had a

35:29

lot of sex but he's never fallen in love

35:31

and he falls in love and they are monogamous

35:33

and they love each other and it's the first

35:35

time he could share who he really was and

35:37

all of these things. It's the first time that

35:39

he doesn't feel fucking

35:42

broken and he

35:44

wants to commit

35:46

himself to this person for

35:48

the rest of his life and

35:51

then the loving Christians are the ones that

35:53

go, that's what's gonna send

35:55

you to hell even though maybe he

35:57

was abused by loving

35:59

Christians. And

36:01

then they're taking away the

36:03

first person that truly

36:06

loved and understood him. Okay, that's what

36:10

kid that that's to me what makes

36:12

it even more heartbreaking. Yeah, you know

36:14

what I mean? Because there are stories

36:16

like oh no, there's there's by by

36:18

the. Thousands.

36:20

Yeah, so so here's here's my.

36:24

Let me tell you what the the biggest

36:26

issue in that story scenario

36:28

is for me. Yeah. The

36:32

presumption that that person

36:34

in that story wants a relationship with

36:37

Jesus. Sure. I

36:40

don't understand how we keep trying

36:42

to police people that

36:44

never even said they wanted to

36:47

follow Jesus. Even if

36:51

I mean what if do

36:53

you think it's crazy this way there

36:55

would be a lot more. Who

36:59

would if they thought that

37:01

was even an option dude. I

37:03

mean I am a I'm Hawaiian

37:05

but I look white as hell. So let's just say I

37:09

am straight white cisgender

37:13

male. We

37:15

got it. We got a pretty good in

37:18

America. Yes, you

37:20

do the fact that I'm

37:22

suicidal and depressed means my life is

37:24

very bad. Yeah,

37:27

I've made a lot of mistakes the

37:30

and I

37:33

didn't feel welcome when I started

37:35

church. I don't feel welcome now. If

37:38

I feel that way and I see what

37:40

you're saying where it's like we shouldn't police

37:42

them. But what if we took it

37:44

even one step further and was like

37:48

let them feel like it was an option if

37:50

we truly think coming to Jesus is the greatest

37:52

thing not just for our like eternal soul but

37:55

for now. Then I also

37:58

don't want to blow them off. and go,

38:00

well, if they don't follow Jesus, it's fine.

38:02

I'm not gonna criticize them. No, no, no,

38:05

I wanna go even further. I wanna love

38:07

them and say they can have a relationship

38:09

with Jesus, just like fucked up me and

38:11

fucked up you can. Oh, absolutely, absolutely correct.

38:13

I think the only difference is if somebody

38:18

has made a commitment to follow

38:20

Jesus and wants to

38:22

have gay sex, that's

38:25

a conversation we would need to have in

38:27

the community. In the same way,

38:29

if a cisgender person,

38:33

heterosexual person says, I wanna follow

38:35

Jesus, but I wanna have all the sex

38:37

I want and I never wanna get married. These

38:41

are the issues that come up

38:44

in community. The problem, and let

38:46

me say, I have zero biblical,

38:51

this is just Jamie speaking from Jamie's heart.

38:55

So like, we were talking before, I was like,

38:57

Tim, I might say some things, I'm not looking

38:59

to argue. And

39:02

because I see in

39:04

my comment section, everybody has

39:07

a Bible verse that fits

39:09

their world point of view and they

39:11

can flip it around and they can, we

39:14

were talking about the slavery one when you

39:16

came on my show. Absolutely. And

39:20

so this is just like my heart, is

39:26

one where I get completely lost

39:28

and where I go, maybe this isn't

39:31

for me, is we

39:34

can still have sex with our wives, right?

39:37

And unless

39:41

that gay person is gonna become a monk and

39:43

we're saying they can't get married either, then

39:46

we're saying that, well, then that's just something you

39:49

never get to have or just fake it till

39:51

you make it. And

39:53

that to me is because

39:55

look, our

39:58

faith, it's just that it's

40:00

faith. Right and So

40:03

for me to say I have

40:05

so much confidence that Jesus

40:09

Came down to earth put on skin and bones

40:12

was killed came back from the

40:14

dead And then

40:16

the gay guy is gonna say but you don't believe I

40:19

was born gay But you believe

40:21

that shit, you know, yeah. Yeah, I just kind

40:23

of go. Oh, you're right. I

40:25

don't know what you feel inside Yeah, I don't know

40:27

if you know, it's

40:29

a college phase I don't know if you're

40:31

like I've tried everything and I am gay.

40:33

I'm only attracted to men. There's nothing I

40:36

can do I'm only attracted to women whatever.

40:38

Yeah, and so You

40:40

know for me to be able to now for the first

40:42

time in my life I truly know what it's like to

40:44

feel something that other people are just like Yeah,

40:46

you believe that you're fucking crazy and so for me

40:48

to be like well You're not really gay if you

40:51

want to be Christian just stop being gay No, and

40:53

I'm not saying that's what you're saying But

40:55

that's what a lot of people say that's what a lot of people

40:57

and so that I'm like I don't

40:59

get in The

41:01

thing that I got in the comment section

41:03

the most when I talked about the predatory

41:06

pastor Comparing that

41:08

to gay marriage or whatever or I think

41:10

it was when everyone was giving Marlon Wayne

41:12

shit For like him supporting

41:14

his trans kid. It's like oh you should have thrown

41:16

out your trans kid if you want to be a

41:18

Christian So shut up I

41:21

think that so many people were saying well sin is

41:23

sin sin is sin sin is sin and they're quoting

41:25

the Bible and That killed me

41:27

because I'm like if you're saying this pastor who

41:29

raped a 12 year old is the same as

41:31

like the married couple That lives on the cul-de-sac

41:33

and watches Downton Abbey and drinks wine on Friday

41:36

nights like get off my feet.

41:38

Right get out, right? But if

41:40

sin is sin and this isn't

41:42

I got you question This is like I think you're gonna have

41:44

an answer that I really need to hear and

41:48

We were talking about okay if someone wants to follow

41:50

Jesus, but have gay sex whatever We're

41:54

all sinning every day right whether it's

41:57

pride whether it's we're

41:59

all we're all doing doing it. I mean,

42:02

the people on my Instagram comments weren't

42:04

exactly being Christ-like, right? People were being

42:06

hateful. Not to me,

42:08

it's Christ-like. So if sin is

42:10

sin, does the

42:14

gay sex conversation have to be as

42:16

big as someone who wants to cheat

42:18

on his wife? Or is

42:21

gay sex up there with just us

42:24

being prideful or cursing some guy off in

42:26

traffic? Or you know what I mean? Yeah,

42:28

no. Yeah, so sin

42:32

is sin, point blank period. I think it's

42:34

the same across the board. And there

42:37

are degrees of consequences. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

42:39

yeah. Right? Like in the same way,

42:41

murder is murder is murder, except was

42:43

it justifiable homicide? Or was

42:45

it self-defense? Was it manslaughter?

42:48

Was it murder one? Was it capital murder?

42:50

Premeditated. Who did you kill? Yeah, yeah, it

42:53

was the president. You know what I mean?

42:55

You tried to take off Trump's head. Yeah,

42:57

yes. He's going to shoot you now. You

42:59

don't even get to go to trial. He's

43:01

on the roof, on a little slant. Pop

43:04

is coming. We're literally going to have the

43:06

people who stormed the Capitol execute him live

43:08

on Fox News. Right,

43:10

exactly. So I agree with the

43:12

statement. I went through this in

43:14

2020. Because I'm a wordsmith.

43:17

And so semantics and all that

43:19

makes... I'm a

43:22

literalist, right? So in 2020, I got

43:26

accused of being political by the white

43:28

people that attended Embassy City when I

43:30

was pastoring it. They were like, well,

43:32

first of all, I think two things happened. I think they forgot I was

43:34

black. And then they

43:37

forgot that the same guy that puts

43:39

together these sermons can also break down

43:41

words. They're the kind of

43:44

white people who are like, our pastor's black, but

43:46

he's not that kind of black.

43:48

He's cool black. He's

43:50

the colored person my grandfather

43:52

would have liked. He

43:54

would have let him and Tim would have been in the house.

44:00

say that to him, but we would have let Tim in

44:02

the house. He

44:04

wouldn't have been in the field, no, no. Getting

44:07

mosquito bites, we would have given

44:09

him bacon. He

44:11

wouldn't have had to eat the Chitterlings. We

44:15

would have given him bacon, crispy

44:18

bacon. OK,

44:20

so with all that

44:22

said, so I

44:25

said Black Lives Matter. I love you so much, buddy.

44:27

I love you so much. I love you too. So

44:30

I said Black Lives Matter. Right. Yeah. By

44:32

the way, what a low bar of a

44:34

slogan. Because literally they matter. Yep.

44:37

Like at the very least they

44:39

matter. Yep.

44:43

Matter. Like matter

44:45

is like matter. Yeah,

44:47

it's not like their slogan was Wakanda

44:49

forever. It was Black Lives Matter. They

44:51

just matter, right? To get mad at

44:54

that slogan is so showing your hand.

44:56

So I'm literally thinking, yeah, Black Lives

44:58

do matter. And we're talking about the

45:00

Black Lives right now. When I talk

45:02

about the blue whales, we're not talking

45:05

about the fact that if bees die,

45:07

your fruit's going to taste like

45:10

trash. Sure. Right? Like your flowers

45:12

are going to wither if there's

45:14

no more cross-pollination in the Earth.

45:16

I'm saying they matter. They're like,

45:18

oh, you're part of an agenda.

45:21

I'm like turn off Fox News

45:23

and maybe listen to the fact that

45:26

I'm actually talking about lives actually

45:28

matter. I'm not talking about

45:30

conflating Black

45:33

lives with the LGBTQIA community, transgenderism.

45:35

It's not Antifa. It's not Antifa.

45:38

It's not any of that. It's

45:40

not even the organization. Because the

45:42

organization, just like all organizations with

45:45

capitalism and the government, faith, they

45:48

can be corrupted, right? And they were. Yep.

45:52

And they weren't at first. That's right.

45:54

But quickly. The more money came. But

45:56

the slogan, when I see someone with

45:58

a Black Lives Matter shirt. I don't

46:00

go, that guy supports the head of

46:02

Black Lives Matter or wear this money

46:04

or whatever. I go, that person wants

46:06

to stop seeing black people get terrorized

46:09

in their neighborhoods. I'm going to salute

46:11

that person. Pretty simple. Pretty simple. So

46:14

when I hear sin is

46:16

sin, I'm like,

46:18

literally, yeah, it's all the

46:20

same. But we got to know that there's

46:22

different consequences based

46:25

on our actions. And when

46:27

it's being used in the

46:29

comment section, trying to compare

46:31

a pedophile... No,

46:36

there's different consequences. You cannot do that.

46:38

The gay couple that's living on the

46:40

cul-de-sac that's watching downtown Abbey and drinking

46:43

their wine are

46:45

not traumatizing people

46:47

starting at 12 who are still trying

46:49

to get justice for what happened to

46:52

them in their flipping 50s. Wallets

46:54

being covered up. Wallets being like... Yeah, so let's

46:56

not do that. At least these people told you

46:59

who they were up front for years.

47:01

Right. Right. We're

47:04

not hiding the fact... I'm in here

47:06

boning a man. You

47:08

who? Just want y'all to know. I'm about to shut

47:10

the blind so you don't see it because I don't

47:12

want this image to be in your head forever and

47:14

ever. But it's about to happen because we're married. It

47:17

is happening. So, to

47:19

me, again, the Bible

47:21

is really clear

47:25

on humanity. Yeah.

47:28

It has no issue being like, this

47:30

is what the humans did. And God

47:32

even being like, hey, I didn't have

47:34

nobody else to use. I had

47:36

to use a liar. I

47:38

had to deal with the deck I was

47:41

handed. Right? Had to deal with a liar.

47:43

I got to use a murderer. Got to

47:45

use a guy that killed a dude and

47:48

didn't slept with his wife and have a

47:50

baby. That's even a

47:52

better example than my story of them

47:54

loving the atheist who cheated on his

47:56

wife in his 20s. It's like we,

47:58

the reverence... we have

48:00

for David, for Paul,

48:02

for whatever. And it's like, we're

48:05

so, just the idea

48:07

of being like, yes, he killed

48:09

Christians and was redeemed. And then

48:12

to throw such vitriol towards women,

48:15

towards gay people, towards, you know, I mean, even

48:17

like- You wanna hear my thought on that? Yeah.

48:20

Part of my interruption. No, please. Okay, but here's

48:22

my thought. My thought is, this is just what I've concluded. Could

48:25

be wrong, hope it changes. Yeah. What

48:27

I've concluded, Jamie, based on what you just said, is

48:30

that all of our stories will

48:33

be better appreciated when

48:37

they're written down and 2,000 years has

48:39

passed. Yeah. Yeah.

48:42

That's when we'll be able to look back and go, yes,

48:46

he did do bad. But

48:49

look at the books he wrote. Right. Because you

48:51

do know that if the people that

48:54

make up Christianity right now, were

48:57

the curators of the Bible, it'd be a

48:59

pamphlet. Yeah. It'd be this

49:01

thing. Yeah. Right? It'd

49:03

be like- It's just that picture of a gay person getting

49:05

beaten up. It'd just be Jesus. Who else could you put

49:08

in there? No. Right? Like

49:10

you couldn't put anybody in there. Thomas Doudenham, Peter

49:12

Deniedham, we know Judas betrayed him. They

49:15

all went back to their old job. Like, who

49:17

would we use? So, like, I

49:20

just don't understand why, and

49:22

I talk about this ad nauseum on this pod, Christians

49:28

suck at holding tension. Yeah.

49:31

We can't hold attention. So, I'll give you a

49:33

case in point. I was an adult pastor, and

49:36

I had a guy

49:38

come into the office one day, sit

49:40

down, and he was like, hey, I

49:42

need to have, I talk with you about something. I've been

49:44

struggling with this for months and months and months. You're my

49:46

final hope. I'm gonna

49:48

have this conversation with you, and then I'm gonna make

49:51

my decision. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, I'm

49:54

gay. Now, here's the thing. I

49:56

don't have a good gaydar. Yeah. Okay,

49:59

unless you are... like in

50:01

a little... I'm gonna try

50:03

that to get you canceled. We know. You know

50:05

what I'm saying? Unless you are flamboyant. Sure. Unless

50:08

you are flamboyant. There's a great

50:11

Simpsons episode where Homer accidentally befriends

50:13

and John Waters plays him. This

50:15

like gay dude and he loves him and

50:18

he loves his fashion, he loves all this

50:20

stuff. And then he finds out he's gay

50:22

and just like loses his mind. He thinks

50:24

he's trying to turn Bart gay. It's actually

50:26

a really, really sweet episode. But I highly

50:28

recommend the episode. It's fantastic. But it's reminding

50:30

me. Yeah, right? So unless

50:33

you're like really, really flamboyant, I'm

50:35

not gonna notice. Cause I grew

50:37

up... I did

50:39

show choir growing up. I'm very

50:41

in touch with both

50:43

of my sides. My feminine side,

50:45

my masculine side. I

50:47

choreographed routines for cheerleaders in

50:49

high school. I

50:52

also choreographed routines for strippers later

50:54

on. Like I did the most.

50:56

So I'm very comfortable in my

50:58

skin. I have almost zero inhibitions.

51:00

I just, I'm out

51:02

here, right? So I'm

51:05

used to being around other creatives that

51:07

run the spectrum of expression. So

51:10

again, unless you are like super flamboyant,

51:12

I'm like, dude, it's cool, right? So

51:14

I couldn't detect nothing on this guy.

51:16

And then he's like, I'm gay. And

51:18

it was like, he took off a

51:21

stealth cloak. I was like,

51:23

what? Then I could see it. And

51:26

it was like, ahhh. So he's

51:28

like, hey dude. I'm totally

51:30

this episode. Cause Homer gets mad at him.

51:32

He goes, you were trying to trick me.

51:34

And there's this line where he's like, I

51:37

want my homosexuals flaming. He was just so

51:39

mad that he wasn't more flamboyant. Exactly, right?

51:41

So yeah, we can't deal with like the

51:43

bearded gay guy who can chop down trees.

51:46

We're like, not the brawny man. He's

51:48

supposed to pick up wet

51:51

spills. I don't know. So

51:53

anyway, so which is probably

51:55

too much innuendo. So anyway,

51:57

he tells me that He

52:00

tells me that basically he's been fighting this for

52:02

too long, he needs to have

52:04

like a final discussion before he decides to like,

52:06

I'm just gonna go be, live my best gay

52:08

life or if I need to not be gay

52:10

or whatever and then I'm like, okay bro, let's

52:12

just talk about this. Tell

52:15

me everything you're feeling and

52:19

I'll spare you all the details

52:21

cause these conversations are so, so

52:24

many people like they want a cookie cutter

52:26

like stencil how

52:29

do I un-gay my friends? And

52:32

I'm like, I don't think that's the

52:34

goal. I think your goal is

52:36

to love them, right? And your goal

52:38

is to hold space for them and actually hear

52:40

them. Cause you can't really understand

52:43

if you're not listening. If you're doing the

52:45

like little BS like, uh-huh, uh-huh,

52:47

uh-huh, but anyway, the Bible says, right,

52:50

right, Leviticus 18, which

52:54

has 17, which

52:57

has 15 verses on heterosexual sex. One on

52:59

gay and one on bestiality,

53:01

but you want to focus on the gay. Okay,

53:03

so anyway. Well,

53:06

I mean, isn't that obvious why, right? It's like, I don't

53:08

look under my bed. Exactly, right? Just like, look at the

53:10

gay guy. Exactly, so at the end of the discussion, we

53:17

have an exchange, we have a moment of prayer and

53:19

he goes, hey, hey,

53:25

here's my decision. I'm

53:27

just gonna take a life

53:29

out of celibacy. I

53:32

said, really? He said, I

53:34

can't ever see myself with

53:36

a woman, but

53:41

I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit of having sex with

53:43

men. This

53:47

is not me like, yah, yah,

53:49

yah, yah. This is like, Holy

53:52

Spirit has convicted this dude of

53:54

sin, right? Okay, so then

53:58

I'm gonna take a life out of celibacy. I'm

54:02

gonna go get a dog and move downtown. And

54:04

to this day, that I know of,

54:06

that's his life. Doesn't

54:08

mean he still doesn't struggle to have that, but

54:11

I don't think it's any different than, and

54:13

this is what I mean about the

54:15

sin is sin, right? Ryan

54:18

is heterosexual

54:21

and is choosing not to ever be

54:25

married to a woman. Unless it

54:27

happens and yeah, but he has so far.

54:30

In the foreseeable future, he cannot see

54:32

himself, right? Yeah, he dedicated, if you

54:34

read his book single today, the dedication's

54:36

so funny, it cracked me. He goes

54:38

to my future wife and then it's

54:40

like, just kidding. Yeah, that

54:43

was so funny. So good, yeah. So

54:45

for me, I'm like, we have

54:47

to wrestle with this tension that

54:50

everyone coming to Jesus, if

54:53

you come out of the LGBTQIA plus community, you

54:55

got a decision to make. If you come out

54:57

of the heterosexual community, you have a decision make.

54:59

If you come out of a Muslim community, you

55:01

have a decision to make. If you come from

55:03

a Buddhist community, you have a decision to make.

55:06

If you come from an atheist community, you have

55:08

a decision to make. If you come from the

55:11

Wall Street, I'm the Wolf

55:13

of Wall Street, all I did was do coke

55:15

and bone chicks and make money. You have a

55:18

decision to make. Then you're awesome. You

55:20

see what I'm saying? So that's

55:22

my, everybody has a decision to make.

55:25

Well, the one thing I would

55:27

really be hard on myself if

55:30

I didn't say something about that story. And then for

55:33

anyone, I also have

55:35

at some point, a more personal

55:37

Jesus question that'll be less political. I feel like

55:39

we should reward people who haven't angrily shut this

55:41

off. But

55:43

I think that'll help a lot of people that

55:46

I wanted to ask you about with still

55:48

similar church baggage-y topic. But the

55:52

thing is, there was a phase before

55:55

I met Alex, my wife,

55:57

and co-host of Trauma Bonding, youtube.com,

55:59

slash. at Trauma BondiPod. Shout out

56:01

to Alex, she's the best. Before

56:04

I met her that I told, I met with

56:06

Ryan. And what

56:08

I love about Ryan's book

56:10

and his attitude towards singleness is like, look

56:13

at all this amazing stuff you can

56:15

do while you're single, including, mainly,

56:19

forming your relationship with Jesus. But also he

56:21

was just like, you know,

56:23

because I'm a writer and he's like, bro, have you read

56:26

the Harry Potter books yet? And I go, no, you could

56:28

do that. How many books could you read? How many books

56:30

could you write if you were single for two years? And

56:32

I was like, a lot, because I'm just constantly trying to

56:34

get a girlfriend, you know? And

56:36

so that was the path I was gonna take, you

56:39

know? And I was all of it for a while.

56:43

And it's a really noble

56:45

path. Like, I think that

56:47

this idea of like being a monk and

56:50

like the Buddhist monks and all of it,

56:52

I think is a really noble path. But

56:55

the only difference between, I think, me

56:57

and Ryan and that kid, maybe,

57:01

is we will never know,

57:03

was it the Holy Spirit? Because, you know,

57:05

people who said the Holy Spirit stole me to do

57:08

some dumb things. I mean, you hear that and you

57:10

go, okay. Throughout history. Yeah, exactly. Or

57:13

was it such

57:15

mass amounts of pressure that

57:18

maybe it was his voice? Maybe

57:20

it was just, I just want this self-hate

57:22

to end because everyone is telling me that

57:24

being gay, I can't be gay and love

57:26

Jesus. And so maybe it was

57:28

the Holy Spirit, but I would

57:32

put some money on the fact that if it

57:34

was a scared gay kid who loves Jesus in

57:36

a Christian community, it could

57:38

have been fear. And we don't

57:40

know. Yeah, well. And I hope he's happy and like it

57:42

sounds like he has a dope life and like that's awesome.

57:44

And maybe, but

57:46

I think that's the difference is

57:50

the shame that I

57:52

would feel or that Ryan would feel if Ryan

57:55

got married, everyone would still celebrate the fuck out

57:57

of him. You know what I mean? And

58:03

I just, I think there are too many gay kids

58:05

who are

58:08

getting such hate and pressure

58:12

just being told you're broken, you're broken, you're broken, you're

58:14

broken. And they go, yeah, but we're all broken. It's

58:16

just like, cool, but you mean it differently when

58:18

you say it to that kid, you know? And

58:22

that's what I just,

58:25

I mean, I feel so strongly about this.

58:28

I just feel so strongly about the fact

58:31

that it took me 40

58:33

years and now I'm rolling

58:36

back downhill to

58:38

be like Christians or, you

58:41

know, our friendship,

58:44

John Mark Homer, who I've never met, but

58:47

his, he had a sermon

58:49

recently that got me back into Christianity and he's

58:51

great because you can never tell, he goes, that

58:53

guy conservative? And he goes, that guy's super liberal?

58:56

Is that guy vegan? Wait. And

58:58

he's just so gentle the way he talks about Jesus. And I

59:01

don't know him as a dude. I'm sure he'll disappoint me. Um,

59:04

but like there are, there

59:06

are certain people that wrestle with this

59:08

gray area and this tension. And

59:10

that to me is so real or that put love

59:12

at the forefront and that's so real. Um,

59:16

but if

59:20

you are telling me that I need to

59:22

be against, like not just like

59:24

tolerate, but like against a certain group of people, cause

59:26

that's what the Bible says, then I'm like, I'm out.

59:29

The amount of people that I just told, well, they're

59:31

like, you're not a Christian. If you feel this way

59:33

about gay people, I go great. Then I'm not a

59:35

Christian and that's fine. And I'm still going to pursue

59:37

a relationship with Jesus. And is that going to fuck

59:39

with my head? Sure. Um, but my

59:41

head's a mess anyway. Then like, cool, man. I'll

59:44

be out and I'll just be loving

59:46

and I'll still try to be like Jesus. But

59:49

if this is what you're saying it takes to be in your

59:51

club. So let me, let

59:53

me say this. I want to

59:55

say something to you and I hope you

59:57

can hear what I'm saying. Yeah. You're

1:00:02

so funny. You

1:00:07

love gay people. God

1:00:09

has given you a heart for

1:00:11

the gay community. It

1:00:14

is absolutely unequivocally

1:00:17

undeniable. And

1:00:20

I truly feel that

1:00:23

God has placed an oil on you

1:00:27

to help other believers

1:00:29

and followers of Yeshua.

1:00:32

I'm talking about that hateful sect that

1:00:34

you and I both hate. That are gonna

1:00:36

hate not just the gay narrative, but

1:00:39

the Black Lives Matter. Black Lives

1:00:41

Matter narrative, your cussing narrative, our

1:00:44

humor narrative, anything other than

1:00:46

their pious pompous

1:00:49

BS, right? I

1:00:52

don't want you to

1:00:56

waste another ounce of your energy

1:01:00

yelling at people who

1:01:03

are never gonna change their minds. That's

1:01:05

good. That's good. And

1:01:07

that actually does lead to my more personal

1:01:10

Jesus question really, really well. And let me

1:01:12

just say like, it's funny, man. I

1:01:14

have gay friends. Not a ton.

1:01:18

I feel like if the church

1:01:20

was as vocally anti-Black or when

1:01:22

I see that, I get just

1:01:25

as outraged. Yeah, for sure. Or if they were just as... It's

1:01:29

just that, like just

1:01:31

people. I just always want to defend people.

1:01:33

Yeah, for sure. Who are being

1:01:35

hurt or bullied. You know what it is? That's

1:01:37

it. Yeah. I have this thing maybe it's because

1:01:39

I was bullied, but I have this thing where

1:01:41

it's like when I see people being bullied, when

1:01:44

I see mobs. Yeah. That's

1:01:46

when. And yeah, if I'm in

1:01:48

the Christian community, chances are

1:01:50

it's gonna be, I guess I'm the guy who defends gay

1:01:52

people. Yeah. But

1:01:55

with the personal question, this is what

1:01:57

I struggled with. So I have

1:01:59

all this stuff. I have the Instagram

1:02:01

drama and by the way taken registered.

1:02:03

Thank you. You're right I

1:02:06

think I was so angry for a while that I was

1:02:09

Fighting back and that was kind of like

1:02:11

old me. Yeah, yeah, and I

1:02:13

kept being like be like, I mean

1:02:15

dude I'm literally I was reading Philip

1:02:17

Yancey's book about grace while Fantasizing

1:02:20

about like the demise of like certain

1:02:22

big Christians and like literally reading about

1:02:25

grace I'm like, oh fuck these motherfuckers

1:02:29

And so I definitely straight off track

1:02:31

myself But

1:02:34

before that, you know without going into

1:02:36

details Get

1:02:39

married God's way, you

1:02:41

know what I mean? I mean, here's what really

1:02:43

happened. I was just you know Jules

1:02:46

and I were talking about it, but Come

1:02:50

to Jesus suddenly get

1:02:53

a little dream apartment Suddenly

1:02:57

Get invited on my first Christian show Suddenly

1:03:00

make my first like real Christian friendship other

1:03:02

than the pastors at Red Rocks Suddenly

1:03:05

get a Christian podcast suddenly

1:03:07

have money suddenly have a

1:03:09

house suddenly, you know Meet

1:03:12

my wife and I go I

1:03:14

guess this is what happens when

1:03:16

you become Christian and You

1:03:20

know Got married

1:03:22

very fast the two things Christians

1:03:24

really came through the two things Christians do really well

1:03:26

fast as they get married too fast and they give

1:03:28

people church hurt too fast And I

1:03:31

got both of those within a year and

1:03:33

get married and then two days after

1:03:35

the wedding lose Everything

1:03:38

no money. No like ever

1:03:41

panic. Mm-hmm so

1:03:43

bad and It's

1:03:49

it's so hard I know the whole

1:03:51

phrase It's people

1:03:53

people are broken But

1:03:55

Jesus but Jesus but Jesus Jesus And

1:03:58

I think I really want advice

1:04:00

because it was so hard for me as

1:04:03

someone who really doubts himself, who has never

1:04:05

fit in, who has been so desperate for

1:04:08

people to love him and that's in

1:04:11

an unhealthy way to be so welcomed

1:04:13

again like we talked about in the beginning of the show

1:04:15

by Christians to come

1:04:17

here former atheist. Let me

1:04:19

suckle from your atheist heat. It's

1:04:23

hilarious today. It's a

1:04:26

funny word today. It's really fun.

1:04:31

So you lose it all. When you, and

1:04:33

it sounds so victim-y if someone else said it, it'll be like

1:04:35

ugh. But I'm sure

1:04:37

you've heard the story and I'm sure your listeners have

1:04:40

felt this. When you're fucking doing

1:04:42

everything right. You know when I

1:04:44

get screwed over because I'm doing wrong. You

1:04:47

know when I cheated on my 20s and it came

1:04:49

out and I got in trouble I go, yep

1:04:52

that is what I deserve. That is

1:04:55

what happened. Were there other sides

1:04:57

to it? Sure. But like for the most part,

1:04:59

I screwed up. But

1:05:02

when you're playing by the rules and

1:05:05

when you're working so hard on yourself

1:05:07

and so hard to be the best

1:05:09

version of yourself and then

1:05:12

your circumstances are so bad it

1:05:14

borderline sounds vindictive. It seemed like

1:05:17

God was looking at a bunch

1:05:19

of Christians and was like ugh how'd Kilsin get

1:05:21

in there? You know what I mean? Those

1:05:24

picture movies when they're like someone's loose and they're not

1:05:26

supposed to be in the like bam bam. I felt

1:05:28

like that's what was happening. It was like a soul

1:05:31

inside out kind of like we have

1:05:33

to remove him. And you know

1:05:36

when people get church hurt especially people who

1:05:39

had real life hurt. Yeah for sure. Who

1:05:41

had real world hurt. They

1:05:43

find Jesus, they find the church and then

1:05:46

they're either betrayed by Christians or they do

1:05:48

the right thing and the rug gets pulled

1:05:50

out. It's

1:05:53

so hard not to feel like

1:05:56

God hates you or he doesn't care

1:05:58

or you

1:06:01

know, you screwed up or you deserve this.

1:06:03

And then when people go, oh no, that

1:06:05

was just people, I go, yeah, but also

1:06:08

there's a supervisor. And it

1:06:10

still hurts so bad.

1:06:12

And I'll tell you, man,

1:06:14

there was, you know,

1:06:16

I texted you because I've been like suicidal

1:06:19

recently and the times

1:06:22

I'm suicidal are not the times I give up faith. That's

1:06:25

what's frustrating. The times I go, you know what,

1:06:27

I'm done with church or I'm just gonna go

1:06:29

back and read this really nice spiritual guy or,

1:06:32

you know, I'm just gonna ignore it and

1:06:34

just try to be a good person on my own, which

1:06:36

I know that's the thing that, you know, is the big mistake

1:06:38

when Christians, you can't try to fix it on your own and

1:06:40

I agree. But I

1:06:43

feel better and I'm not even doing anything. It's not

1:06:45

like I'm like cheating on my wife or doing drugs

1:06:47

or drinking. I don't do any of that stuff. I

1:06:50

just feel better because I'm not

1:06:52

around everything we've been talking about.

1:06:54

And then when I go

1:06:57

back to, when

1:07:00

I go back to, all right, I

1:07:03

gotta start reading these Christian books again. I gotta

1:07:05

start, you know, worship music is something I never

1:07:07

stopped listening to, which is that's really been like

1:07:09

my anchor, you know, to like, because

1:07:11

I just get music. But

1:07:15

I feel worse and I

1:07:17

feel like, okay, like

1:07:20

I'm back Jesus, I'm praying, I'm whatever.

1:07:22

And then it's still just dial tone,

1:07:24

dial tone, dial tone. And I know

1:07:26

that this is what David said and

1:07:29

that this is when you're supposed to,

1:07:31

you know, your faith is built and

1:07:33

whatever, but God, it sucks. And I

1:07:35

can see why so many people just

1:07:37

go, what's

1:07:40

the point, man? I was a

1:07:42

better, happier person without this shit.

1:07:44

Yeah, for sure. And,

1:07:47

you know, I'm at a crossroads because

1:07:49

I know it's real. I know Jesus's

1:07:51

love is real. And when I

1:07:53

don't feel it, I just wanna like run

1:07:56

the fuck away. So

1:07:58

did Jesus. you're

1:08:00

in really good company Jamie. That's the

1:08:02

best retort you could have said. Damn it.

1:08:05

Yeah, no, yeah. Yeah,

1:08:08

he prayed three times. Take this cup. Take

1:08:11

this cup. Yeah. Take this cup.

1:08:15

Crickets. Yeah. Crickets.

1:08:21

Yeah. Yeah. The

1:08:23

culmination of that is him dying

1:08:26

out on the cross. Eli,

1:08:28

Eli, Lama, Sabachthani, my

1:08:31

god, my god, why have you forsaken me? Yeah.

1:08:37

I guess I don't feel as bad anymore. What?

1:08:39

No, I'm saying. Yeah, I'm saying

1:08:41

it's beautiful. You're right. But here's my problem.

1:08:43

Here's my. You

1:08:46

do know the F bomb comes out of my mouth

1:08:48

when I'm with you. Yeah. So

1:08:50

again, I read the comments last time we

1:08:52

podcasted. You got chose. So. So

1:08:57

there he is. So here's the thing. Here's here's

1:09:00

here's one of my contention

1:09:05

points with our churches. Yeah. It's

1:09:08

too damn cool on Sunday, dog. Oh,

1:09:11

yeah. It's too damn

1:09:13

cool. Yep. It's too damn happy in there.

1:09:15

Yeah. We're not telling people the

1:09:18

truth. Yeah. We are playing duck

1:09:20

duck goose with that book, dog. Yeah. For

1:09:23

you to come out with that conclusion. Yeah. You didn't

1:09:25

get there by yourself. Yeah. Somebody

1:09:27

is only pointing to the somebody

1:09:30

is touring you around LA and

1:09:32

the whole tour. Jamie has been Beverly Hills.

1:09:34

Well, to be clear, it's like I mean,

1:09:36

certainly wasn't my church because they did. They

1:09:38

do speak on that. Oh, yeah. I'm not.

1:09:41

I'm not. And I'm speaking on like I'm

1:09:43

speaking to you for many. Well, I think

1:09:45

it's also it's what we choose to hear

1:09:47

as well. Boom.

1:09:50

You know, I'm grateful for the ownership. Yeah. You know

1:09:52

what I'm saying? Yeah. But but I I want to

1:09:55

talk to the church. I I'm I'm

1:09:57

happy this came up. I'm I

1:09:59

am. I have a point of contention

1:10:01

with churches that only drive people around

1:10:03

Beverly Hills. You gotta take

1:10:05

these niggas to Watts. Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:09

There is a part of Compton that

1:10:12

ain't cool. Like there is a

1:10:14

part of East LA that you don't

1:10:16

wanna be at. You don't wanna go down

1:10:18

the wrong street in East LA

1:10:22

after dark. Yeah,

1:10:24

I mean, Ryan gave a sermon yesterday about

1:10:26

how it's not like, you

1:10:28

know, God fixes now. It's like, you're

1:10:31

not praying for that. You're praying for

1:10:33

peace. You're praying your heart.

1:10:35

That's right. And that's why I keep hearing, I

1:10:37

heard it from your wife downstairs. It's like, you're

1:10:39

praying for that. And, you

1:10:42

know, I think too, when people, you

1:10:44

know, I used to get in trouble when

1:10:46

I would have my beginner kickboxing class spar

1:10:49

because that's how you learn. That doesn't mean, go spar

1:10:51

with this professional fighter is gonna beat you up, but maybe

1:10:53

it's your first day and maybe me and you only

1:10:55

spar with a jab. I teach you how to throw

1:10:57

a jab. I teach you how to block a jab. Today,

1:11:00

you're just gonna feel what it's like now that you're

1:11:02

a little nervous, now that you're a little flinchy, now

1:11:04

that you're a little. And I

1:11:06

remember this gym owner going, you know, of

1:11:08

people, especially of women who, by the way,

1:11:11

need to spar even more, because they're smaller and they need to

1:11:13

know what's gonna happen when someone grabs you. You

1:11:16

know, if they see that, they're gonna be scared away. Even

1:11:20

though it's real. And even though it's how

1:11:22

you learn how to fight, you know. And

1:11:25

I feel like that's probably what it is with

1:11:27

the church. Cause I'll tell you, me who loves

1:11:29

Jesus, when I hear, you know, oh, well, what

1:11:31

about, what happened to the apostles? And this one

1:11:33

was in jail and this one was beheaded. And

1:11:35

I was like, were any of them fine? Did

1:11:38

any of them have a successful Patreon?

1:11:40

Or did they get a podcast afterwards

1:11:43

or a book deal? Because

1:11:45

that all sounds terrible.

1:11:49

I don't want that to happen at

1:11:51

all. And you know, even Ryan

1:11:53

mentioned this sermon, but if I misquote this,

1:11:55

it's not him, it's me. the

1:12:00

line everyone likes to quote, I

1:12:02

can do all things. Through Christ,

1:12:04

that's for instance. Yeah, it's like. Philippians 4.30. Yeah,

1:12:07

and people forget he was writing from jail. It

1:12:10

wasn't like he just won the Super Bowl.

1:12:12

No. Or whatever, he was writing that

1:12:14

from jail. Yeah, and the preceding verses are saying, I've

1:12:17

had food and not had food. I've

1:12:19

had money and not have money. I've had shelter and

1:12:21

not had shelter. I can do

1:12:23

all things. Yeah, and here's what's interesting, man.

1:12:25

It's actually, the reason that I can accept

1:12:28

all of that isn't from anything I

1:12:30

heard in church. But it kind

1:12:32

of is from what I've gotten

1:12:35

from meditation and mindfulness, Buddhism, jiu-jitsu,

1:12:37

which is the just being content

1:12:39

in the now and the present.

1:12:41

And I think the problem is you either

1:12:43

get all Beverly Hills, you

1:12:45

walk in and the church lobby looks like a scene

1:12:48

from Get Out. Or. Or.

1:12:50

All Compton. Fire and brimstone. All

1:12:52

Watts. Yes. Nickerson Gardens. Yes.

1:12:55

Gang riot in LA. Prison break. Yeah. That's

1:12:58

what you get. I think what we

1:13:00

try to do. Nobody lives in Pasadena. And

1:13:03

Pasadena is just lovely. What

1:13:06

we try to do on trauma bonding, what I try

1:13:08

to do on my Instagram, what

1:13:10

I'm trying to figure out and kind of

1:13:12

process live on the podcast, I mean, that's

1:13:15

kind of what the podcast is, it's

1:13:17

this. Because Alex can quote scripture like

1:13:19

this and I'm just like, help. So

1:13:23

you guys will get Alex if you listen to the podcast

1:13:25

too. She's my stable side. But.

1:13:29

It's because of, because

1:13:32

there are just those two extremes, what I need

1:13:34

is, okay, if you're gonna give me that, if

1:13:36

you're gonna give me the kind of rough news,

1:13:39

then I also wanna hear how do I process that?

1:13:41

Yes. And how do I live and how

1:13:43

do I still live like Christ and how do I still, because

1:13:46

usually people just say, you know, you're gonna get betrayed and you're

1:13:48

gonna get like this and it's supposed to make you more Christ

1:13:50

like, great. How? Yeah, how? Because

1:13:52

I can just take the beating. But

1:13:54

that's gonna make a lot of people

1:13:57

resentful. Right. And you know what, dude,

1:13:59

when I broke down. The

1:14:02

times where I've gone from I'm

1:14:04

in a bad situation to suicidal

1:14:08

were the times that I'm like, I've

1:14:12

never felt this angry. I've

1:14:15

never felt this resentful. I've

1:14:17

never felt this bitter. I've

1:14:20

never looked at some like Christian

1:14:22

pastor's success and been like fuck

1:14:24

that guy. I mean I have

1:14:26

comedians who were so mean to me back in

1:14:28

the day and I went and bought a ticket

1:14:30

to their movie. I go, you know, I support

1:14:32

you. John Mulaney, one of the most successful comedians

1:14:34

in the world, did

1:14:37

a kind of worst version of what I got

1:14:39

cancelled for at his play in the stadiums and

1:14:41

has a great Netflix show. And he is one

1:14:43

of my favorite comics. And when I met him,

1:14:45

he got me my first manager and was very

1:14:47

nice to me. And I'm not going to turn

1:14:49

on that guy. But this was

1:14:52

different. And I remember

1:14:54

when I had those feelings, I

1:14:56

was like fuck

1:14:58

Christians for hurting me. And even

1:15:01

though I know this is my responsibility, fuck them

1:15:04

for making me angry because that's not who I

1:15:06

am. And now I'm being driven

1:15:08

farther away from being like Christ because you

1:15:10

know what? When things

1:15:12

were going great, I

1:15:14

was being Christ like I was making a

1:15:17

lot of money, but spending all of my

1:15:19

extra time teaching children jujitsu. I was handing

1:15:21

out sandwiches. I was doing this. And now

1:15:23

I'm sitting here scrolling on fucking Instagram, looking

1:15:25

at, oh, this guy has a podcast now.

1:15:27

I wonder how much he's getting paid. And

1:15:30

I felt so disgusted

1:15:32

with myself and

1:15:34

heartbroken that it was the people

1:15:37

who I thought

1:15:39

represented Jesus. That even though

1:15:41

all of that stuff is my fault, I need to

1:15:43

take responsibility. I need to do the work. But

1:15:47

yeah, of course I'm going to read a

1:15:49

Buddhism book. You know why? Because that Christian

1:15:51

fucked me over. And this little Buddhist lady

1:15:53

is teaching me how to sit still and

1:15:55

meditate. And she seems lovely. Yeah, she had

1:15:57

all the good vibes. Yeah. And she didn't

1:15:59

like rape a 12. year old at the

1:16:01

monastery. She's just a little monk lady and

1:16:03

killer. And then I'm gonna quiet my

1:16:05

mind using this thing I learned from the little monk

1:16:07

lady and guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna attempt

1:16:10

to hear Jesus. I'm not listening for Buddha. He was

1:16:12

just a dude who sat under a tree and was

1:16:14

really smart. Yeah, I

1:16:16

can identify with you Jamie. What

1:16:20

you just said vividly brought

1:16:22

back the church

1:16:25

hurt that I experienced. And

1:16:29

I remember the

1:16:33

person that hurt me. I

1:16:36

remember trying to match his

1:16:38

energy. It

1:16:48

was the worst three weeks of

1:16:50

my life trying

1:16:53

to match this dude's energy. Yeah, man.

1:16:55

I was trying to be as

1:17:00

cold and heartless as him. And

1:17:03

I'm like, this is not me. No, I

1:17:05

was like, this is it. I

1:17:13

hated that he even brought that out of me.

1:17:16

That's exactly how I feel. You know what I'm

1:17:18

saying? It feels like your identity is being like

1:17:20

ripped apart from the yes ride. That's right. And

1:17:22

yeah, it's like you're taking on their like power.

1:17:24

And then there's even part of you where you

1:17:26

go, well, they're more successful than fucking me. Right.

1:17:29

So maybe I'm doing this. Yeah, I'm doing it

1:17:31

wrong. I need to be cutthroat. I need to

1:17:33

be heartless. I need to be callous. And by

1:17:35

the way, when I was that pretty successful. Yeah.

1:17:37

Yeah, that bad. But when I just

1:17:40

like didn't really give a shit, didn't have a God,

1:17:42

right still trying to be nice and defend people or

1:17:44

whatever. I was cheating and drinking.

1:17:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was doing great.

1:17:48

Yep. Yep. I promise you, dude, I

1:17:51

tried it for three weeks. It did not work.

1:17:53

And I really the Holy Spirit told me, I

1:17:55

will actually I said something to God. And then he said something

1:17:58

to me when I told God was, I feel

1:18:00

I feel like my soul has been cratered. And

1:18:02

there's a crater in my soul. Yeah. And

1:18:04

the Holy Spirit was so sweet

1:18:07

because he didn't dismiss it like

1:18:09

a Christian would. Right? You know what I

1:18:11

mean? Like, oh, the Lord is your strength

1:18:14

and your salvation. Whom shall you fear? If

1:18:16

you don't shut up. Right? So. Just

1:18:18

join a small group. What? What?

1:18:21

Have you found your purpose through growth check

1:18:23

yet? I

1:18:26

see you've only completed three or four weeks.

1:18:28

That's why you don't know what your destiny

1:18:30

is. Destiny is all. If

1:18:33

anybody likes the last kingdom. Anyway. So

1:18:35

I said, Lord, I feel like there's a

1:18:37

crater in my soul. And the Lord, the

1:18:40

Holy Spirit's response was, that's exactly

1:18:42

what you have. It

1:18:44

was like so, I was so happy to

1:18:46

be validated. That's exactly what's

1:18:48

in your soul. Right. A

1:18:50

crater. Yes. You're

1:18:53

right. He did crater you. Yep. Hey, oh

1:18:55

great. So I'm not like crazy. I'm not

1:18:57

crazy. I'm not crazy. I feel

1:18:59

like I'm having a mental breakdown during all of this. Cause

1:19:01

it's like, you're trying so hard and you feel Jesus and

1:19:03

then you're just, yeah, you have that identity ripped apart. Yeah.

1:19:06

So you're like, cool. Now I'm an insane person. Exactly. And

1:19:09

I'm not like he, the Lord just validated. He was like, cool. There

1:19:12

is a crater. He was like, but you get to

1:19:14

choose what you fill it with. That's

1:19:16

so good. And he goes. That's a good guy. And

1:19:18

he gave me two options. He goes, you can fill

1:19:20

it with bitterness. He said, and

1:19:22

if you fill it with bitterness, people will

1:19:24

drown in it for the rest of your life.

1:19:27

Yeah. So huge crater. He said, or you can

1:19:29

fill it with grace. If you fill

1:19:31

it with grace, people will be refreshed in

1:19:33

it for the rest of your life. So

1:19:37

my parents gave us a middle class life

1:19:39

in the hood. Yeah.

1:19:44

They found a way to do it. Right. Exactly. Scratch

1:19:46

out this house. That was $43,000 and it had a pool. And

1:19:49

we were like one of the only kids in the, in

1:19:53

the neighborhood with a pool. Okay, cool. My

1:19:55

dad, okay. So winter goes by and the

1:19:58

pool turned dark green. and

1:20:00

there's little algae and

1:20:03

there's little tadpoles and frogs spawning,

1:20:05

right? And so

1:20:07

he has to drain the pool every spring

1:20:10

and then pour acid,

1:20:13

hydrochloric acid all the way around to eat

1:20:15

away all the algae and then spray it down, power

1:20:19

wash it, and then after you get it all,

1:20:22

you know, the whole thing cleaned out, he

1:20:25

takes a garden hose. A

1:20:28

garden hose, dude. A

1:20:30

garden hose. And this

1:20:32

is what I saw in my spirit is filling

1:20:34

up this crater. Took this garden hose

1:20:37

and he just drops it over the

1:20:39

edge of the deep end and he just turns it on. And

1:20:42

he walks in the house. And

1:20:44

it's like six days later. Yeah. The

1:20:47

pool is filled. Yeah.

1:20:51

It was slow. It's

1:20:53

good. The way

1:20:55

that crater was filled was

1:20:59

slow. Dude.

1:21:03

Slow. I

1:21:08

haven't told you this story, but I hope I don't

1:21:10

get in trouble. It's a Dorm well story. So

1:21:13

I love

1:21:15

how you said that. And what's

1:21:18

funny is I catch myself

1:21:20

going, I just need one break.

1:21:23

I just need one gig. And

1:21:26

I feel selfish because if somebody asked

1:21:29

me on a self-help podcast, oh, when I get this

1:21:31

girl, then I'll be fine. Or when I get this

1:21:33

amount of money, I go, nope, it's all within you.

1:21:36

You need to learn how to be happy now. You

1:21:38

need to learn how to be Pete. But at the

1:21:40

same time, the anxiety, having

1:21:42

to get a refund

1:21:44

for, I haven't taken my wife on

1:21:47

a honeymoon. She's trying not to sell her wedding

1:21:49

dress. There's just so much sad shit right now

1:21:53

that might get worse. I

1:21:55

don't know how it's gonna play out or it might

1:21:57

get better. But I just keep asking

1:21:59

for like. I just need one. I just need one. But

1:22:02

when I'm when I'm not in that self hating mode and

1:22:04

when I'm not in that looking at the bank account or

1:22:06

freaking out mode and I go, why did

1:22:08

God do this to me? On

1:22:11

my good days, like

1:22:13

I know I've been suicidal. I

1:22:15

know I've been bitter and angry.

1:22:18

On my good days, dude, I feel

1:22:20

like I'm being cracked open. I

1:22:22

feel like if I get through this, all

1:22:25

that stuff before, because I got a sweet podcast deal,

1:22:28

that ain't nothing compared to the kindness that I'm going

1:22:31

to show now. And

1:22:34

it's a fight. It's a fight

1:22:36

not to ruin my marriage, right? Because I go,

1:22:38

well, I got married because of God and everything.

1:22:40

And even she's perfect. But since everything else gets

1:22:42

taken away from me, you know what I mean?

1:22:45

I'm sure for sure. You just go, well, nothing.

1:22:47

None of this is probably real, right? But

1:22:50

my good days, I do feel it. And

1:22:52

Alex is really good at, you

1:22:56

know, playing the long God

1:22:58

game. And so

1:23:01

when when I lost the

1:23:03

money, we had to get rid of

1:23:05

this house. We were renting a house and

1:23:07

we had to get out and we had to pay

1:23:09

this crazy lease break fee. And they're like

1:23:11

still trying to keep us on the hook for the hat.

1:23:13

Like it was wild. It still is wild. And

1:23:18

we start going to Torren Wells Church. And

1:23:21

it was great. And man, that worship team is so good.

1:23:27

And I go, you know, if

1:23:29

we don't rent this house, like we're done. I'm going to be homeless. And,

1:23:33

you know, when all that

1:23:35

stuff first happened, when I first lost the money,

1:23:37

it was everything we talked about. God hates me. I never

1:23:40

belonged here. This was a trick. I screwed. What did I

1:23:42

do to screw up? You know, was it because I was

1:23:44

feeding the homeless people? But I maybe I looked to see

1:23:46

if someone saw me or I'm teaching these kids. But maybe

1:23:48

I, you know, I'm still getting $30 a class. Maybe

1:23:51

I need to give that back. Like all this crazy stuff.

1:23:55

And Torren texts

1:23:57

me. He goes, dude, I think I found

1:23:59

someone to rent the house. And I

1:24:01

was just like, this is God.

1:24:03

This is the story. We haven't lost any money

1:24:05

yet. Someone's just gonna walk in.

1:24:08

You know, cause Torin also, he, we

1:24:11

went to church the day we got married, and

1:24:14

Torin prayed over us while the worship band played.

1:24:17

And you know, especially new baby Christian music

1:24:19

is my God love language to have Torin

1:24:21

Wells. I was just like, it was the

1:24:23

most beautiful. It was like, you were gonna

1:24:25

be so impactful in the Christian community. We

1:24:28

get married. I'm like, yay. Two days later,

1:24:30

lose everything. And I'm like, Torin Wells prayers

1:24:32

are cursed. They are cursed.

1:24:35

Do not let that man pray over you. He

1:24:39

was some kind of sorcery that he

1:24:41

placed on us. And I

1:24:43

was like, losing my mind. Oh my God. So

1:24:45

then, so Torin texts and he goes, and

1:24:47

he goes, he goes,

1:24:49

hey man, I think I have someone to

1:24:51

rent this house. And he sees these young

1:24:53

kids and their actors and these like kind

1:24:55

of new artists. And

1:24:58

they come in, they fall in love with the house. And

1:25:00

I go, okay, oh my God. Still, you know,

1:25:03

God knew I needed a celebrity pastor to validate

1:25:05

all of my other feelings towards celebrity pastors. And

1:25:07

you know, they're gonna rent the house and we're

1:25:09

not gonna lose any money. And I'm cool with

1:25:11

simplifying because Jesus lived a simple life and I

1:25:14

don't need a house. I'll go to this apartment

1:25:16

and it's fine. And

1:25:18

I feel so good again. And

1:25:21

then they get rejected. And

1:25:25

I lost it more then than when I lost all

1:25:27

the money. Because that I just

1:25:29

go, why? Why would

1:25:31

you tease me like that? Why would you

1:25:33

have Torin give

1:25:35

these kids who are so sweet and this

1:25:38

house and then some asshole's gonna say no

1:25:40

because someone has student debt or something. And

1:25:43

I lost it. I was like, there's no point

1:25:45

to this. At least, you know, I

1:25:50

could see positives in the long game for the

1:25:52

other stuff, but not for this. And

1:25:57

Alex goes, you know, because everyone,

1:25:59

when you just need it, I need pragmatic advice

1:26:01

when you just need, hey, what's my job? What

1:26:04

should I do for a job? I asked you,

1:26:06

I asked a couple other friends, what's my job? And

1:26:08

Charles Metcalf's like, you should fast right now. I'm like,

1:26:10

I'm gonna need to, because I can't afford food, Charles.

1:26:13

I just need a job. He

1:26:16

was very sweet. But the, so,

1:26:21

Alex is one of those people. And she's like, hey, this

1:26:23

is gonna happen for a reason. She goes,

1:26:25

maybe you'll end up acting with them one day. I was like,

1:26:28

sure, shut up. And

1:26:31

anyway, she's producing a movie. There's

1:26:33

an audition that's right for me. It's

1:26:36

like an indie movie. It's like just like a short thing, but

1:26:39

I've always wanted to act and I've always been too scared to

1:26:41

do it. That's why I make those little sketches on my own.

1:26:44

You know, and out of like 80 people or whatever, I

1:26:46

do my first audition that I've ever done and I get

1:26:48

it. And then we meet

1:26:51

and we love it and she loves Jesus and

1:26:53

she kind of feels the same way that I

1:26:55

do. And we go, hey, you wanna start making

1:26:57

sketches together? And so now me, her and her

1:26:59

boyfriend and Alex, now we have

1:27:01

a little crew and he does stunts. So

1:27:03

we can make some of these sketches like

1:27:06

kind of wilder and then I'm

1:27:08

trying to help them

1:27:10

get exposure and they're showing me how to

1:27:12

end. So Alex

1:27:15

was right. Who would have thought that this thing

1:27:17

that in the moment, I was like,

1:27:19

there was nothing I can get

1:27:22

from these kids getting rejected. We are gonna be

1:27:24

homeless. To suddenly, at

1:27:26

42, this dream that I've always

1:27:28

wanted, I

1:27:31

can do. And so I see God

1:27:35

in these little ways and I hate myself

1:27:37

when I go, yeah, but

1:27:39

I need money or I need this.

1:27:41

And it's like, no, I just want peace. Yeah.

1:27:44

Yeah. You know? Yes.

1:27:47

And sometimes you need money for peace. Sometimes

1:27:49

money answer with all things. That's what the

1:27:52

Bible says. Yeah. And I do

1:27:55

see it in these little ways, whether

1:27:57

it's the career stuff or whether it's the, even

1:27:59

just. me and Alex like dude we

1:28:02

have 222 subscribers on YouTube and we probably have

1:28:06

30 patrons and the show's been going on for a month.

1:28:09

That's awesome! Well what I was gonna say

1:28:11

is the old me would go that's so

1:28:14

bad blah blah blah you know I have

1:28:17

30,000 on instant whatever and

1:28:20

there's something so different about this podcast

1:28:22

and I think it's because like what

1:28:25

we're saying is impacting people so much those

1:28:27

222 on YouTube I mean there's much more

1:28:29

on the audio but those 222 on YouTube

1:28:31

I know them pretty much by name because

1:28:33

they've reached out to tell us how

1:28:36

we are helping them and that

1:28:38

is so different than the podcasts I've done

1:28:40

that are maybe bigger at first but

1:28:44

it's not that yeah it's not that

1:28:46

community you know for sure like we

1:28:48

call our listeners sad pandas so

1:28:51

we have like a little like sad panda army and

1:28:54

it's like it actually helps people and

1:28:56

that's even another way I'm cracked open before it was

1:28:58

like validate me with numbers let me be the next

1:29:01

John Mulaney let me be Shane Gillis I have to

1:29:03

prove to people whatever yeah and now I'm just like

1:29:05

dude I would die for these 222 people

1:29:07

and I know when it

1:29:09

goes up that's gonna stay because I've

1:29:11

lost so much but

1:29:14

oh no the process sucks it

1:29:16

sucks and we won't we

1:29:18

won't talk about Jesus bloodied

1:29:21

and feeling forsaken on that cross yeah

1:29:24

we just want to he

1:29:26

called my name and I

1:29:28

ran out of that grave

1:29:33

out of the darkness

1:29:35

to that marvelous day

1:29:40

and we're all jumping yeah

1:29:42

and the song is dope

1:29:44

yeah but that's

1:29:47

not act like he He

1:30:00

didn't die. Yeah. A horrible

1:30:02

death. But that's even more. I'll

1:30:04

even be victim with that though.

1:30:07

Like at my worst. Because

1:30:09

again, I'll have some like rich

1:30:12

Christian dude be like, you just got to pray on

1:30:14

it or you got to whatever. And I was like,

1:30:16

cool. But when shit goes wrong for you, you are

1:30:18

still fine. Right. You still have a house. Right. You

1:30:20

still have this. You still have whatever. Yeah. And

1:30:25

even with that, you know, at first

1:30:27

I felt so warm when you were like Jesus went

1:30:29

through what you went through and I was like, OK.

1:30:31

And then I was like, wait, he

1:30:34

was the son of God. I'm

1:30:37

a comedian. You know what I mean? Like

1:30:39

he went through that and he was

1:30:42

screaming bloody down that cross. Right. Where

1:30:44

the fuck does that leave me? Screaming

1:30:47

at some point in your life as

1:30:50

well. Yeah. Mine too. Yeah. And then

1:30:52

believing that God has

1:30:54

my back. Listen, if

1:30:57

you are a believer in Jesus Christ and

1:31:00

you haven't had a why have you forsaken

1:31:02

me moment. Yeah. You ain't walked a block

1:31:04

with him. Right. I

1:31:07

love calling it a walk. You're still on the

1:31:09

porch. A why have you forsaken me moment. That's

1:31:11

so good. Yeah. Dude. Yeah. I mean, if you

1:31:13

haven't had that moment, how far have

1:31:16

you been walking with? Right. Yeah. I've

1:31:18

had that conversation with myself when it comes

1:31:20

to Juliet. Yeah. Like who are you in a

1:31:23

deep relationship where you have inside item at some

1:31:25

point and been like, sure, I don't even like

1:31:27

you no more. You know what I'm saying? Like,

1:31:29

what am I with you? What

1:31:32

does your Psalm look like? Everything is good.

1:31:34

Bye. Yeah. Exactly. Like

1:31:38

so my I am

1:31:40

a big. I

1:31:42

like to I lead with bad news. I don't give

1:31:44

people that hey would you like good news or bad

1:31:46

news first. Sure. I'm gonna give you bad news first.

1:31:49

Yeah. Right. Like let's give you but we like I

1:31:51

just think thank you Holy Spirit. I've never said this

1:31:53

before. So we thank you Jamie

1:31:55

Kielstein got you. The good news is the

1:31:57

good news. Yeah, but it's not the good

1:31:59

news. at the expense of bad news. And

1:32:03

I just think we've gotten so good at

1:32:06

giving good news, we forget to even give

1:32:08

them bad news. There

1:32:10

is some bad news. In

1:32:12

this life you will be persecuted. There

1:32:15

is some bad news. Everything ain't gonna go your

1:32:17

way. And we

1:32:19

have countless examples of

1:32:21

that from Genesis to Revelation. So I

1:32:24

don't understand why everybody thinks there's

1:32:26

two sides to every coin. Like

1:32:28

we talk about Jonah in the belly of the

1:32:30

whale. Can we talk about the fact that the

1:32:32

people that were on their way to Tarsus didn't

1:32:34

do nothing wrong? And

1:32:37

they almost wind up shipwrecked behind this fool? I

1:32:40

mean, I think the problem is the

1:32:42

people who fixate on the bad news, and

1:32:44

this kind of brings the whole conversation together

1:32:46

with like the kickboxing analogy and stuff, the

1:32:49

people who focus on the bad news are

1:32:52

oftentimes the ones producing

1:32:54

the Christians who

1:32:57

are so wrapped up by fear

1:33:01

that then they lash out and miss

1:33:03

the loving part. There you go. And

1:33:05

this, in this full circle,

1:33:08

this is what happens when you don't hold tension. Yeah,

1:33:10

when you don't hold tension, good. It has to be, give

1:33:13

them all good news. If you

1:33:15

don't hold tension, bad. You're going to hell, going to hell, going

1:33:17

to hell. You got a beard, going to hell. Plaid shirt, going

1:33:19

to hell. You're still drinking coffee, going

1:33:21

to hell. Jeans, going to hell. You

1:33:23

don't have any shoes, going to hell. Shave that

1:33:26

beard. Might go to heaven. White

1:33:29

T-shirt only. Might go to heaven. So

1:33:32

you're paranoid on that side. Then over here, you're in

1:33:34

delululand. It's all good, it's all good, just pray, it's

1:33:36

going to all be good. Oh, you want

1:33:39

your kid to get into the Ivy League school? All you got to do is pray. Oh,

1:33:42

you want your studio that wants to be eradicated? God

1:33:44

wants to make you debt free. Oh,

1:33:46

you want to have a Bugatti? Just believe

1:33:48

God hard enough. I'm like, you work at a

1:33:51

call center. Dude, and I'll tell you. Nobody

1:33:53

at a call center. That makes you... That

1:33:56

was one of the things that really got... pushed

1:33:59

my bitch. is yeah,

1:34:01

having all these very successful, very rich Christians be

1:34:03

like, I'm praying for you. And then a week

1:34:06

later, how's it going? I'm still praying for you.

1:34:08

I'm like, guess what? Your prayers don't work. Things

1:34:11

are bad. They're very bad. Stop

1:34:13

praying for me, dude. Stop praying for me, Torin. It's

1:34:17

not good. Exactly.

1:34:21

And you know, what I really

1:34:23

love, and we hype a lot on

1:34:26

trauma bonding, is we talk about the stuff outside

1:34:28

the church we're doing to better ourselves. And

1:34:30

it's not because, again, when I

1:34:33

meditate, I'm like worshiping Buddha. It's

1:34:35

because, hey, there

1:34:37

are things outside of the church

1:34:40

that you can do to calm

1:34:42

your mind and to become a

1:34:44

non-anxious presence that will help you.

1:34:48

Or like in my case, because I sound like a

1:34:50

lunatic right now, but all of this is just me

1:34:52

being very self-aware. A lot of guys feel a lot

1:34:54

of the stuff I'm saying, and they hold it in

1:34:57

and punch walls. So

1:34:59

true. The amount of work that I do

1:35:01

do for myself to get to this is

1:35:03

a lot. Me too. Yeah,

1:35:06

so a lot of that, you talk about therapy a

1:35:08

lot for me. I talk about meditation. I talk about

1:35:10

jujitsu. Even the way I eat, this

1:35:13

whole ever since life went bad, like, bro,

1:35:15

I put on 25 pounds. You

1:35:18

know how much that affects my

1:35:20

confidence? I mean, it's brutal on top

1:35:22

of everything else. And

1:35:25

so we talk about those things

1:35:27

not to replace Jesus, but

1:35:30

hey, if you need to quiet your

1:35:32

mind, meditation is actually a really beautiful

1:35:34

tool. And sure, maybe secular Buddhists use

1:35:36

it just to be present, but

1:35:39

why can't you use it, this beautiful tool

1:35:42

of just sitting still? Scripture says meditate. Yeah,

1:35:44

why can't you use it to hear the

1:35:46

Holy Spirit and to calm the chatter in

1:35:49

your mind? And so, you know, cause it's

1:35:51

funny, cause preachers always have to give that

1:35:54

Christian preface whenever they're like, you

1:35:56

know, I went to a yoga class once, don't worry. Now

1:35:59

I'd want to, I didn't. I didn't do the downward

1:36:01

dog. I just want to be clear.

1:36:04

I didn't downward with my dog.

1:36:06

I did yoga with my eyes

1:36:08

glued shut the entire time. I

1:36:11

didn't see anyone in yoga pants. I

1:36:14

just want to be very, very clear.

1:36:16

My spine still curved like a cat.

1:36:19

So they do the downward dog. I

1:36:21

do the downward cat. Like,

1:36:26

shut up! Yeah. So

1:36:28

we really talk about that on the

1:36:31

show, where it's like, hey, here's what I'm

1:36:33

doing to get closer to Jesus. Here's some

1:36:35

bullshit I saw in the church. Alex, please

1:36:37

talk me down from this ledge. And here's

1:36:40

what I'm doing just in

1:36:43

life to become a

1:36:45

better person. Here's where I slipped

1:36:47

up. Here's where I. And that,

1:36:50

I think, is so, so

1:36:52

important. Dude, I do a six-mile

1:36:54

walk most days. When

1:36:57

I'm feeling really frisky, 8.3. That's

1:37:00

great. One

1:37:02

day I'm going to do 10 just to

1:37:04

know what it feels like. If my Tesla

1:37:06

ever loses its juice in the middle of

1:37:09

nowhere, at least I know I can walk

1:37:11

10 miles without water. You know what I'm

1:37:13

saying? On a hot day. If

1:37:18

everything is prey on your knees,

1:37:21

if you're not in that position, you're not hearing

1:37:23

God, all my walk is where I have

1:37:25

my time with God. The first

1:37:28

three miles is me talking to Jesus

1:37:30

Christo. Yeah, and by the way, so for

1:37:32

me, I mean, that's the Tim Ross. But

1:37:34

for me, who's going through all these struggles,

1:37:37

when I take my morning walk, I

1:37:40

don't start with that as my intention all the

1:37:42

time. Sometimes I do. And

1:37:44

I will see something so beautiful or

1:37:47

I'll hear a song so beautiful that

1:37:49

before I know it, unplanned,

1:37:51

I am praying. Yeah, that's

1:37:53

beautiful. And like, you know,

1:37:55

I could sit there forcibly

1:37:58

on my. every

1:38:00

morning at 7 a.m. and there is a lot of good you

1:38:02

can get out of that. Like I said, that's the whole like

1:38:04

monastic living like like that could actually

1:38:06

be good for me in another way and maybe in

1:38:09

another phase of my life and the times I've tried

1:38:11

that like before coffee I'm judging my prayers now and

1:38:13

I'm like I'm not even praying right and do I

1:38:15

mean this and when I say something like you know

1:38:18

why just pray for something financial to be stable I

1:38:20

suddenly am just like oh God's gonna think I'm a

1:38:22

selfish jerk and it's like well obviously I'm gonna donate

1:38:24

a bunch of that and like I might have to

1:38:26

cancel this donation because I don't know if I can

1:38:29

afford it right and it's a mess. Yeah but when

1:38:31

I am walking in nature and

1:38:33

I see God's creation I mean this happened this morning I

1:38:35

was like I had to hit my walk even though I

1:38:37

had to fly here so like I woke up at 5

1:38:39

and I walked at 6 and then I

1:38:41

showered and got to the airport. The

1:38:44

sunrise was so beautiful as I saw these like

1:38:46

bunnies and I was like of course

1:38:48

I'm suddenly praying I'm suddenly saying thank you

1:38:51

God thank you God thank you God not

1:38:53

because I forced it on my knees because

1:38:55

I actually experienced God's creation and I actually

1:38:57

took some God pressure off me and

1:39:00

then what's gonna happen you're gonna see

1:39:02

God's magic and you're gonna be grateful.

1:39:04

I love it there's a verse that

1:39:07

I want to read which I

1:39:11

think is going to you

1:39:14

know ever since they did the Bible on the phone

1:39:16

thing and you're at church I can I'm

1:39:18

either like am I in awe that you're reading

1:39:20

the scripture or am I mad at you that

1:39:22

you're on your phone and it's a real you

1:39:25

can't you can't judge people they got a movie

1:39:27

theater if you see a light on a phone

1:39:29

you know fuck this guy needs to be kicked

1:39:31

out right church I still have that instinct and

1:39:33

then I'm like right

1:39:36

you might be in

1:39:38

the notes app yeah

1:39:41

journal so I can

1:39:43

stop judging I

1:39:46

think this is I don't know

1:39:48

why this has been happening with my Bible okay

1:39:53

it's on both of those while

1:39:58

you're doing that I tried to I'll try to do

1:40:01

a thing sometimes because I still have trouble with scripture.

1:40:03

Like for me, prayer, worship

1:40:05

music, Sabbath

1:40:07

fasting, is kind of like,

1:40:10

and I just struggle with scripture. So

1:40:13

sometimes I'll be like, all right, there's a passage God wants

1:40:15

me to read. And even though I thought I was supposed

1:40:17

to like you right now, that's what made me think of

1:40:19

it. Like even though I thought I was going for this

1:40:21

passage, I'm on this passage, so let's read it. And then

1:40:23

I like read a paragraph and I'm like, no idea what

1:40:25

that means. And then I close it and I'm like, I

1:40:27

struck out again. Okay, okay, so

1:40:29

this is, I'm gonna ask you

1:40:31

two questions. And then I'm

1:40:34

gonna read this verse and

1:40:37

then we're gonna go because it's

1:40:39

time to eat. Yeah. Jamie

1:40:42

Kilstein. Yes. Do you

1:40:44

believe that Jesus is Lord? Yeah. Jamie

1:40:47

Kilstein. Do you believe that

1:40:49

God raised him from the dead? Yeah. Okay.

1:40:52

I already know this, but this is

1:40:55

why I'm saying this. Because there's

1:40:57

gonna be some people that listen to

1:40:59

this podcast and go, oh, Jamie's a heathen.

1:41:02

Did you hear his mouth? Did

1:41:04

you hear his perspectives? Did you hear

1:41:06

those takes? Can't believe Tim had him

1:41:08

on. Can't believe Tim

1:41:11

had him back. And

1:41:13

to the others, patreon.com/Jamie

1:41:15

Kilstein. patreon.com/Jamie Kilstein at

1:41:17

the Jamie Kilstein on Instagram. If we can get

1:41:19

4,000 new followers to make

1:41:22

up for that. To replace the jerks that

1:41:24

left, let's go. So here's why

1:41:26

I wanted to read this. This is second Corinthians.

1:41:29

No, this is first Corinthians. It's first Corinthians chapter number

1:41:31

12. First number three. Paul writes

1:41:33

this. So don't argue with me, argue with

1:41:35

Paul. Yeah. So I want you

1:41:37

to know. And he'll kill you. He has. patreon.com/Jamie

1:41:43

Kilstein. This

1:41:45

is hilarious. So I want you

1:41:47

to know, first Corinthians, first

1:41:50

Corinthians, yes, first Corinthians 12, verse

1:41:53

number three. Paul's writing, here's what he says.

1:41:55

NOT. So I want you to

1:41:57

know that no one speaking by the.

1:41:59

The Spirit of God will curse Jesus. And

1:42:02

no one can say Jesus

1:42:04

is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.

1:42:08

Anybody that wanna come after me for having my homeboy on this

1:42:10

show, go

1:42:13

talk to Paul first. Yeah. And

1:42:15

you know, just something I'll say in closing,

1:42:19

which is like, I

1:42:22

gained nothing from these points of

1:42:24

view. Right.

1:42:27

And you know, the people

1:42:29

who are like, oh, he's doing the Christian grift

1:42:32

or, I remember I posted a pro gay something,

1:42:34

they're like, Jamie went woke again. I was like,

1:42:36

guys, I'm allowed to like, not hate a group

1:42:38

of people. And

1:42:41

for people, like someone was like, oh, you're trying to

1:42:43

get that money. And I was like, I wish people

1:42:45

knew how much money I lost and am

1:42:48

currently losing. And that like, it's easy for me

1:42:50

to go, oh yeah, I lost

1:42:52

4,000 followers, screw those guys. We didn't want

1:42:54

them. And when launching a new podcast that

1:42:56

you're supposed to sell fund, starting from nothing,

1:42:59

I need them. Right, right, right, right, right,

1:43:01

exactly. Not them. Why would

1:43:03

you be alienating people if you were trying

1:43:05

to make money? Tim, you know my story,

1:43:08

and you remember how bonkers that first podcast

1:43:10

we did went. Do you,

1:43:12

and I'm smart. I'm self hating, but I'm

1:43:14

a smart dude. If I

1:43:16

wanted to play my Christian hand, do

1:43:18

you know how much I could be killing

1:43:21

it? Oh, you would be like most,

1:43:23

you would be like the majority of

1:43:25

lead pastors who live duplicitous lives. Yeah,

1:43:27

I mean, it would be so easy

1:43:29

for me just to do the, write

1:43:31

the former atheist testimony, write

1:43:33

the canceled testimony, tour

1:43:35

churches, stop posting, open all of

1:43:37

these music festivals. Bro,

1:43:40

I could kill the podcast, judging

1:43:42

other people, well I'm a changed man and this

1:43:44

blah, blah, blah. And I

1:43:47

just want to say like, it's not me trying

1:43:49

to be a shit stirrer and it's not me,

1:43:52

it's truly, it's funny man. One of the things

1:43:54

that I'll ask you on another podcast sometime is,

1:43:56

I always got jealous of the people who were

1:43:58

confidently like I heard the. Holy Spirit. I heard

1:44:00

the Holy Spirit and I never felt that way.

1:44:03

And you know, I'd hear little

1:44:05

voices and I get intuition, which is the Holy Spirit.

1:44:07

Yeah, for sure. But the

1:44:10

first time I truly felt it was during all

1:44:12

of this that it's like

1:44:14

I know I'm on the right path and I

1:44:16

know I certainly know I'm not speaking out against

1:44:18

God. You know why? I'm gaining nothing from it.

1:44:20

Like if I was talking about if

1:44:23

I was saying all these things about Christianity so

1:44:26

that I could sleep around and

1:44:28

I'm just like, guys, the thing about pre-marital sex is

1:44:30

crazy. Like I said, I barely know any gay people.

1:44:32

Yeah. Gaining nothing. I'm not even getting like it's not

1:44:34

like I'm getting gigs at like LGBT. They're not gonna

1:44:36

have anything. Right, right, right. It's

1:44:39

truly I believe so deeply in my

1:44:41

heart that God wants me to reach

1:44:44

the people who have been pushed out by the church and

1:44:47