0:00

We lived in vulnerability.

0:02

We were created to

0:05

live in vulnerability. Right. Sin

0:07

changed that. Our fallen nature

0:10

has made hiding our default.

0:12

Yeah, so growing up, apostolic,

0:15

everything was... If you do

0:17

this, then God won't do

0:20

that. If you do this,

0:22

God might kill you. And

0:24

my walk with Christ was

0:27

exhausting. Our first encounters with

0:29

God are through people. And

0:32

so if the people are

0:34

misrepresentations of God, by the

0:37

time we're broken up to go

0:39

to him ourselves, we go to

0:41

him like we went to them.

0:43

The institution of worships that you

0:46

were raised in did not normalize

0:48

it. They don't preach this stuff.

0:50

Like, we've got a whole book

0:53

on amitations, and we're telling people

0:55

not to cry. But we always

0:57

like to think it's just one

0:59

linear, straight-through thing. And we don't

1:02

understand how you can lead worship

1:04

and still be sad. This episode

1:07

is brought to you by Better

1:09

Help. Hey, listen, I'm so excited

1:11

for the opportunity that we have

1:13

to give you resources and tools

1:15

that can help you grow. Listen.

1:17

You might be struggling with comparison,

1:19

whether you have been online and

1:21

you've been watching how other people

1:23

live their life, the moves that

1:25

they're making, and you're thinking to

1:27

yourself. How come I haven't made

1:29

that progress yet? Well, maybe you

1:31

might be in your own way.

1:33

Maybe you are your own obstacle

1:35

course, and there needs to be

1:37

some things removed emotionally and mentally

1:40

that get you in the place that you

1:42

need to be. So that you can get

1:44

to the other side and make the

1:46

progress that you need to make not

1:48

in comparison with somebody else But authentically

1:50

based on who you are. Why don't

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I encourage you to to better

2:01

help.com/B-side. I love you guys.

2:03

Peace. Play the B-side. You

2:05

got the A-side of life

2:07

and the B-side and life.

2:09

What's on the B-side? All

2:11

of it. B-side's got some

2:13

bang insues of deep cuts.

2:15

Side, B-side, come on. Need

2:17

it for the B-side. On

2:19

the B-side. So what's this

2:21

really about? Every human on

2:23

earth is fully seen, fully

2:25

heard, fully known, fully known,

2:28

fully loved, even if they're

2:30

I hear you, I hear

2:32

you, I hear you. I

2:34

hear you, Val. I hear

2:36

you. I hear you. I

2:38

know you. I know I

2:40

know you. I know you.

2:42

I know you. I know

2:44

you. I love you just

2:46

the way you are. You

2:48

are love. I love you,

2:50

I love you, I love

2:52

you! Oh! Eddie, even if

2:54

you don't agree with it.

2:57

I'm a pipe and hot

2:59

mess. Sheeze! Keep it real.

3:01

I guess, keep it real.

3:03

Courage, vulnerability? You're vulnerable. It's

3:05

only vulnerability. I would normalize

3:07

it, but it's weird. That's

3:09

not normal, is it? Totally

3:11

normal. It's actually not weird.

3:13

It's actually super normal. Honorable?

3:15

Oh, frick. So that's what

3:17

this is really all about.

3:19

Please don't push me! But

3:21

y'all push B. Now we

3:23

got drillers from calley to

3:26

flat bush B. Now they

3:28

got heat on their feet

3:30

that say press B. And

3:32

now we so deep in

3:34

the streets, y'all can't stress

3:36

me. Can't curse me. Then

3:38

bless me, I'm crucifying my

3:40

flesh, that's less me. S-A-T

3:42

from preaching, can't test me,

3:44

atheists are now believing, that

3:46

bless me. Yeah, we got

3:48

the basement replacing, any of

3:50

those early pursuits that y'all

3:52

chasing, any of those trials

3:55

and tests that y'all facing,

3:57

any of the relationships that

3:59

y'all change. your range in making

4:01

the shame shift giving Satan back what's

4:03

his that's the blame shift rise up

4:05

and walk commands that's the lame shift

4:08

cheap coats for living this life that's

4:10

the game shift all on your shoe

4:12

man the rest is manure man I'm

4:15

dying daily so I rise up a

4:17

pure man pressing bee daily so my

4:19

sins looking fewer man watching the bloods

4:22

of my sins down the super man

4:24

yeah so press be with me and

4:26

let's let whatever gone be just be

4:29

Yeah, I can't even believe that

4:31

this is where I am right

4:33

now. Just speak. I'm in the

4:36

basement, y'all. I'm in

4:38

the basement. Tim Ross. Y'all

4:40

give it up for Tim Ross.

4:43

Oh, give it up for Tim

4:45

Ross. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I

4:47

can't even believe that this is

4:49

where I am right now.

4:51

Before the camera started

4:54

rolling. I was talking to

4:56

you Tim. I was telling

4:58

you. Just how grateful I

5:00

am for your ministry.

5:02

I'm really trying to calm

5:05

myself down because my brain

5:07

is going. So I'm trying

5:10

to calm myself down. But

5:12

this has been a two-year

5:14

prayer, answer to prayer. Oh,

5:16

wow. So when you started

5:19

your podcast, you started,

5:21

when did you start?

5:23

July 6, 2020, 22. 22.

5:25

Yeah. I pressed B immediately.

5:28

I watched that first, I remember

5:30

I saw the first couple of

5:32

clips that you did. Yeah. I

5:34

don't think it was your podcast,

5:36

I think it was with the... Yeah, it

5:39

was with JB and AB. Yeah, and AP,

5:41

JB and AP. There was a bunch

5:43

of letters out here. And I was

5:45

like... Just a bunch of letters.

5:47

Wow, this man is really like, like,

5:50

talking. He's talking. He's like,

5:52

no chill. Like, he's not mensing

5:54

words at all. Right. And of

5:56

course, like, I follow Mike Todd.

5:58

Yeah, for sure. I've seen you

6:01

preach at Transformation, but I've never

6:03

seen you in that context before

6:05

or heard you in that context.

6:08

So when you started your podcast

6:10

that first episode, I pressed B

6:13

immediately. When you told that vision

6:15

that you had, of when you

6:17

went to the penthouse floor and

6:20

all of, you know, I don't

6:22

remember word for word. Yeah, for

6:25

sure. Maybe you can go through

6:27

that. briefly for those who don't

6:29

have context to who you are.

6:32

Absolutely. But when you told that

6:34

vision, I was immediately captured. Yeah.

6:37

And it was because it was

6:39

in a journey, I was in

6:41

a season in my life where

6:44

I was starting this journey, I

6:46

think I was deconstructing a little

6:49

bit. Mm-hmm. It's healthy to do.

6:51

It's a very healthy thing to

6:53

do. Right. Yeah. I was kind

6:56

of like deconstructing. because hi, my

6:58

name is Ivory and I'm a

7:00

recovering legalist. And so I was

7:03

just deconstructing the things that I

7:05

had learned growing up that I

7:08

didn't think was right. And so,

7:10

and then starting this whole journey

7:12

of vulnerability. So before we get

7:15

there, I have like, it's not

7:17

really an ice breaker because I

7:20

feel like we've already broken the

7:22

ice. Okay. It's something that I,

7:24

I'm curious, so it's something I

7:27

do with some, I guess. Yeah.

7:29

What is your Mount Rushmore of

7:32

the Bible? My Mount Rushmore of

7:34

the Bible. Okay. That's got to

7:36

be four faces on there. I

7:39

mean Naomi rain added one more

7:41

face. Did she add that she

7:44

she just smushed the face on

7:46

there? She just like inserted the

7:48

face. Is it a baby? Is

7:51

it baby Moses? Is she just

7:53

stuck in there? Was it baby

7:56

Jesus? I don't even remember who

7:58

it was. That's hilarious. Okay. My

8:00

Mount Rushmore of the faith will

8:03

not include Jesus. Okay. Okay. And

8:05

that's only because he is our faith.

8:07

I mean, like, you know what I

8:10

mean? Like, if I put him there,

8:12

why would any, I wouldn't put another

8:14

face next to Jesus. He

8:16

is king of kings, lord

8:19

of lord. So I'm not

8:21

putting Jesus on the Mount Rushmore,

8:23

okay, because he's above. My

8:25

God. He's above it, right. So.

8:28

Abraham's on my

8:30

Mount Rushmore. Okay. Gideon's

8:32

on my Mount Rushmore. Why

8:35

Gideon? Because Gideon had

8:37

as much faith as Abraham

8:39

did. He just needed to

8:42

check. He just needed a

8:44

quality assurance check. And

8:47

I just think he gets

8:49

a bad rap. That's a

8:52

fact. So I need the

8:54

juxtaposition of Abraham next to

8:56

Gideon. typifies the two ways

8:59

I've had to express my

9:01

faith. I've had my Abraham

9:03

moment where it's just like

9:05

God told me I'm out and

9:08

then all the rest of my

9:10

moments are Gideon. It's like if

9:12

that's you I'm gonna put out

9:15

of fleas it need to be

9:17

purple and wet on Tuesday and

9:19

then it need to be pokodot

9:22

and dry on Wednesday. And then

9:24

they need to be orange with

9:27

spikes on third. Like, and, and

9:29

the Lord for some reason is

9:31

indulging me. You know, can we

9:34

just stop there real

9:36

quick? Yeah. Because I

9:38

appreciate, I appreciate that

9:40

story so much because for

9:42

someone like me, that it's

9:45

constantly like, God, is this

9:47

you? Yeah, I need signs. Like,

9:50

if that's you. Let

9:52

the phone ring twice and then

9:54

hang up. And the fact that

9:56

God gave him another sign

9:59

without him. and asking for it.

10:01

Yeah, for sure. Just in case.

10:03

Yeah, just in case. Yeah. So,

10:05

so I'm very, and like everybody's

10:07

like, Gideon didn't have faith. He

10:10

should just believe God. But then,

10:12

but like, you condemning Gideon, but

10:14

God didn't. That part. Like, God,

10:16

he's like, what do you need?

10:18

That part? Done. Oh, you know

10:21

how many times I felt bad?

10:23

Yeah. For feeling like I needed

10:25

to ask God for a sign

10:27

for a sign. Yeah, for sure.

10:29

We've been told that you're just

10:31

supposed to have faith and whatever,

10:34

but it's like there are times,

10:36

situations, decisions that you have to

10:38

make. It's like, God, could you

10:40

just remind? Like, could you just?

10:42

Yeah, the revision is history on

10:45

our faith testimonies, like removes all

10:47

the butt clinching. And I'm like,

10:49

I need the butt clinching. Y'all

10:51

know your cheek. The fibrous twitched

10:53

a little bit. It had to.

10:55

There's no way. I

10:58

know late in the midnight, I

11:01

already turned it around, but it

11:03

was 257 and you didn't know.

11:05

Yeah, yeah. So don't act like

11:08

you were just listening to worship

11:10

music like, I don't care what's

11:12

going on, I'm gonna praise in

11:14

the spirit, because God's gonna make,

11:17

oh, some of those are some

11:19

butt-clinching moments. Yes. And I just,

11:21

that's the reality. That's the reality.

11:23

You didn't know he was coming

11:26

through right that's a fact until

11:28

he did it like you know

11:30

what I mean? Yeah You didn't

11:33

know it's gonna happen right? He

11:35

was driving off talking about why

11:37

and then he did it and

11:39

you was like you know what

11:42

I mean? So God you're good.

11:44

Yeah exactly right you did it

11:46

again of course he did so

11:48

so that so Abraham Gideon I'm

11:51

a rock with those two from

11:53

the Old Testament And then I

11:55

guess I'll jump New Testament to

11:58

split it. I'm a go. I'm

12:06

gonna go Peter and Thomas.

12:08

New Testament. Why Thomas?

12:10

For the same reason. He

12:12

doubted God and Jesus came

12:14

back to... Yeah, yeah. He doubted Jesus

12:17

and Jesus came back just

12:19

for him eight days later.

12:21

Why do we even call

12:23

him doubting Thomas? Because we

12:25

always, we always refer to

12:27

a person by the last

12:29

negative thing they did. For

12:32

some reason it just especially in

12:35

church. It just holds more weight

12:37

like if you did something bad

12:39

like we want to remember that

12:42

We want to remind you of

12:44

the bad like nobody wants to

12:46

talk about the fact that Thomas

12:48

made it all the way to

12:50

India Right. You know what? Do you

12:53

know everybody last name in India

12:55

is either Thomas Matthew or John?

12:57

That's because of Thomas I

12:59

proved it Right. And Jesus did say,

13:02

hey, you, you had to touch me to believe.

13:04

I did that for you. But blessed

13:06

is, blessed is the man who doesn't

13:08

need this type of proof and still

13:10

believes. Right. Right. That's all of

13:12

us, because we too far removed,

13:14

he ain't coming back to give

13:17

us that cameo appearance, right? Right.

13:19

But that's all time it's needed.

13:21

He got him all the way to India.

13:23

Do you know how reassuring that is

13:25

for someone like me? My nature is.

13:27

I'm a worry wart. Naturally.

13:30

I worry about everything.

13:32

So it literally takes

13:34

everything in me to

13:36

trust God to calm down,

13:38

relax and know that he's

13:40

with me and that I

13:42

can trust him. He's trustworthy.

13:44

But when I read, so

13:46

like there's scriptures that have

13:49

had me in knots. For

13:51

instance, he who asks don't

13:53

doubt, you know what I'm

13:55

saying. You're like a ship

13:57

tossed to a- Yeah, yeah,

13:59

yeah. And it's like there

14:01

are times where I'm like,

14:03

but God, like, I've never

14:05

been down this role before.

14:07

Are you gonna come through?

14:09

Yeah. And when I hear,

14:11

when I read about Thomas

14:14

and how he was doubting

14:16

Thomas, but yet you still

14:18

came, you proved yourself. Yeah.

14:20

It just, it gives me

14:22

so much comfort. Yeah, we

14:24

need that. You know, the

14:26

scripture that you references in

14:28

James, chapter one. I

14:30

think one of the things that

14:33

we forget is that faith is

14:35

not the absence of doubt. That's

14:38

not what faith is. Hebrews 11

14:40

says faith is the substance of

14:42

things hope for the evidence of

14:45

things not seen. But it's not

14:47

also the absence of doubt. It

14:49

is actually the acknowledgement of doubt

14:52

and fear and the application of

14:54

the faith anyway. That's real faith.

14:58

You know I've been taught

15:01

different. Of course you have.

15:03

Of course you have. Ciao.

15:05

You got taught a whole

15:07

bunch of stuff. We gonna

15:09

get there. You and me,

15:12

Bo. Yeah, Lord. Honestly, faith

15:14

journey has been so difficult

15:16

for me. Yeah. Okay, so

15:18

since we here. Yeah. Being

15:21

raised apostolic. Even though I've

15:23

been walking with Christ for

15:25

such a long time, it's

15:27

still, there are times that

15:29

I still feel like, God,

15:32

I feel like I'm a

15:34

baby. I feel like I

15:36

haven't gotten it yet. And

15:38

I have beat myself up

15:41

because I haven't gotten it

15:43

yet. It's like, I'm supposed

15:45

to know this by now.

15:47

I'm supposed to have this

15:49

faith. My faith is supposed

15:52

to be strong by now.

15:54

But I find myself struggling.

15:56

I find myself struggling with

15:58

faith. and trusting you and

16:01

in life be hard and

16:03

life be lifing and going through

16:05

things I've never gone through before

16:07

and learning or trying to to

16:09

find my faith with God through

16:11

it all and it's like I

16:13

beat myself up so much like

16:15

you're supposed to have it by now

16:18

yeah yeah that's that's um first of

16:20

all it breaks my heart to hear

16:22

you say that And there's so

16:24

many believers that are in

16:26

that frame of mind where

16:28

it's like, I should have

16:30

this already. The first thing

16:33

I popped in my mind

16:35

as soon as you said that

16:37

Ivory was like the disciples

16:39

didn't. They was with

16:41

him every day in

16:43

a concentrated amount of time

16:46

for like three and a half

16:48

years. And they still didn't get

16:50

it. Most of us. are

16:53

informed about him

16:56

through others. Right.

16:58

That are misinformed.

17:01

Right. About him.

17:03

So I need you to

17:05

give yourself way more

17:08

grace. Okay, so Tim,

17:10

this is one of

17:12

the things I wanted

17:15

to talk to you

17:17

about is the whole

17:19

idea of giving

17:21

myself. I didn't know how

17:24

to do that. I was always so

17:26

hard on me. Yeah. Hi, my name

17:28

is Ivory. I'm a recovering

17:30

legalist. So growing up, apostolic, everything

17:32

was rules oriented. Everything was, if

17:35

you do this, then God won't

17:37

do that. If you do this,

17:39

God might kill you if you

17:42

do this. He won't answer your

17:44

prayers, you won't get the blessing,

17:46

da da da. And it affected

17:49

the way that I saw God

17:51

in everything. For sure, absolutely correct.

17:53

And my walk with Christ was

17:56

exhausting. How could it not be?

17:58

One of the things. that you

18:00

mentioned in your book actually that

18:03

actually floored me because you talked

18:05

about you went to this church

18:07

and they taught that if you

18:10

didn't speak in tongues you weren't

18:12

saved right that was my life

18:14

yeah absolutely I know do you

18:17

know how traumatizing that was oh

18:19

for sure absolutely correct like all

18:22

the kids had to come to

18:24

the front yeah for tearing service

18:26

yeah and Amen. Yeah, everybody was

18:29

falling out. Yeah, and foaming at

18:31

the mouth. Yeah, yeah, I'm over

18:33

here like, yeah. And I can't

18:36

even find the verse. And I

18:38

would find the terrier verse. I

18:40

would be petrified because I really

18:43

loved God. For sure. And I

18:45

was petrified that if I didn't

18:47

get filled, I'm not going to

18:50

heaven. Yeah. And so after a

18:52

while, I just was like, I

18:55

don't want nothing to do with

18:57

it. I eventually did get filled

18:59

with the Holy Spirit much later

19:02

in life. Once you got off

19:04

day block. By myself in my

19:06

room. That's the way I got

19:09

filled with the Holy Spirit. September

19:11

28th. Yeah, six months after I

19:13

gave my life to Jesus in

19:16

1996, 222 AM, you can't make

19:18

it up, it's a red poetic.

19:20

222 AM on a Tuesday. In

19:23

my parents room, both of them

19:25

were at work. I was just

19:28

saying thank you to him, and

19:30

I'm a literalist, so I was

19:32

like, thank you for money, and

19:35

thank you for my friends, and

19:37

thank you for, you know what

19:39

I mean? It wasn't no, t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t

19:42

I was just thanking him for

19:44

stuff and I literally ran out

19:46

of stuff to thank him for.

19:49

Yeah, yeah. And then I got

19:51

ready to open my mouth to

19:53

say something else and this beautiful

19:56

language flowed out of my mouth

19:58

for like 25 minutes. Yeah, yeah.

20:01

I couldn't stop it. My brain

20:03

wasn't off, I wasn't like in

20:06

a trance. This beautiful

20:08

language was flowing through

20:10

my mouth and it

20:12

had like structure and

20:14

syntax. And like, it

20:17

wasn't gibberish. It was

20:19

like a language, but

20:21

I couldn't decode it.

20:24

And in my brain, I

20:26

was like, oh. even

20:29

wanted no more. And then

20:31

that's when he gave it

20:33

to me. So you're clearly

20:36

not petty. That part.

20:38

You're just not as petty

20:40

as the people that are

20:42

peddling you. What are you

20:44

doing to me? Pedaling you

20:47

is crazy. No. But

20:49

it's the truth. Yeah,

20:51

they're peddling something that

20:53

he just wants to

20:55

give. And that's

20:57

why I was so

20:59

exhausting because I mean,

21:01

it's a formula that

21:04

is like, first of all,

21:06

it's not in the Bible,

21:08

right? Terry till I

21:10

come was one time. And

21:12

it was only for Jews,

21:14

there were no Gentiles

21:17

present. But you, but,

21:19

okay. It had me tripped up.

21:21

for years and for sure absolutely

21:24

and years and there's a line

21:26

actually that you that you said

21:29

in the book oh god please

21:31

let me be able to find

21:33

it okay you said if it's good

21:35

food it'll do all the nourishing

21:37

of my body it'll do all

21:40

the nourishing of my body that

21:42

it needs and then it'll come

21:44

straight out if it's bad food

21:46

it'll get in just as easy

21:48

but it'll be hard to get

21:50

out that that that that religious

21:52

mindset has been so hard for

21:54

me to get out. Yeah, for

21:56

sure. Absolutely. To get out of

21:58

my system. Yeah. It affected the

22:01

way I saw God, so I

22:03

never believe that God loved me.

22:05

I never believe that he was

22:07

for me. I always felt like

22:09

he was a hard taskmaster, that

22:11

anything that I did wrong, he

22:13

was gonna punish me for. And

22:15

spending time with God was difficult.

22:17

Because I was afraid. I was

22:19

always afraid that God was mad

22:21

at me. I was always afraid.

22:24

And it's wild because I'm a

22:26

worship leader. Right? The

22:28

way that I was raised

22:30

in church Because eventually I

22:32

did leave the apostolic and

22:34

I went to non non-nominational,

22:36

but even in that Some

22:38

of the things that we

22:40

were taught it just helped

22:42

it just reinforced that idea

22:44

in my mind that if

22:46

I didn't pray for three

22:48

hours I couldn't step up

22:50

on platform because God was

22:52

going to be with me.

22:54

Yeah, if I you know

22:56

what I'm saying? It was

22:58

very exhausting Tim, it was

23:00

so exhausting. Yeah, for sure.

23:02

My walk with Christ was

23:04

so exhausting. And if I

23:06

can be just straight up

23:08

honest with you, it's only

23:10

been in the last two

23:12

years that I've starting to

23:14

feel my freedom. Yeah. And

23:16

recognize my freedom in Christ.

23:18

Yeah. And recognizing that God

23:20

loves me and recognizing that.

23:22

He doesn't hate me. He's

23:24

not mad at me that

23:26

I can spend time with

23:28

him and it's glorious Yeah,

23:30

you know what I'm saying

23:32

I Get emotional when I

23:35

think about it And I

23:37

think that's why your your

23:39

ministry has been so impactful

23:41

for me because I started

23:43

on the vulnerability journey You

23:45

don't know how much that

23:47

has changed my life. Yeah,

23:49

it changes everybody's life. Can

23:51

you talk to me a

23:53

little bit about your journey

23:55

to vulnerability and why you

23:57

think it's important? Yeah, for

23:59

sure. So. So, I got

24:01

sexually abused when I was

24:03

eight years old by a teenage

24:05

boy to live the cross street

24:07

for me. Happened for over like

24:10

a six month period of time.

24:12

It could have been longer, I

24:14

think, but to survive the trauma,

24:16

six months was, that's when my

24:18

brain was like, you won't see

24:21

any more of this, right? Disassociate.

24:24

So, between eight and 12 was

24:26

kind of like blacked out.

24:28

And then 12, I got exposed

24:31

to pornography and that was my

24:33

coping mechanism. This is what I,

24:35

point of masturbation is what I

24:37

used to like numb myself from

24:40

the trauma of my childhood. It

24:42

could have been, I could have

24:44

got alcohol first, I could have

24:46

got cigarettes first, I could have became

24:48

violent, all these different things. It

24:50

just so happened it happened to

24:53

be porn. So anyway. At 19,

24:55

my mom catches me. Looking at

24:57

more you tell this story all

24:59

the time and I'm like that's

25:01

wild. Yeah, she caught she caught

25:03

me right and but in this

25:05

beautiful thing happened I've read that night

25:07

That that I got caught it should have

25:10

been like full of shame full of

25:12

condemnation But it wasn't like my

25:15

brother admitted he was abused by

25:17

the same person mom abused She

25:19

was abused when she was sick

25:21

and then my dad confessed

25:23

that he was abused when he

25:25

was five and this night that

25:27

should have been shameful and full

25:29

of condemnation was full of light and

25:31

vulnerability and transparency

25:34

and honesty and openness and so it

25:36

was like this 2,000 pound slab of

25:38

concrete came off my chest and I'm

25:40

like oh my god I can breathe

25:43

again yeah and I was like I would

25:45

never have a secret again as long

25:47

as I live like that's that's all I

25:49

think it to myself I wouldn't

25:51

never have a secret again as long as

25:53

I live. Okay, then I give my

25:56

life to Jesus January 14th of 1996.

25:58

So about a year later off. was

26:00

20 and a half. Give

26:02

my life to Jesus January

26:04

14th of 96. I started

26:06

reading my Bible, my Bible,

26:08

January 15th of 96. I

26:11

started from Genesis 1. 1.

26:13

King James version. Thompson chain

26:15

reference Bible. You were church

26:17

kid for real. Church. Okay,

26:19

me and King James went

26:21

from Genesis 1 to the

26:23

end of revelation. And I

26:26

thought to myself. Oh, this

26:28

book has no problem. No

26:30

chill. This book has zero

26:32

chill. Letting us know what

26:34

happened with everybody. Right. Okay.

26:36

My mama has me a

26:38

book a few months later

26:41

by saying, I call him

26:43

Augustine. Some people call him

26:45

Augustine. Augustine hits right with

26:47

me. I say Augustine. Those

26:49

syllables feel right to me.

26:51

Okay, so St. Augustine is

26:53

a monk, okay, that lived

26:55

in some century a long

26:58

time. I don't know all

27:00

that. Preston Perry would know

27:02

that, I don't know. And

27:04

he wrote a book called

27:06

Confessions. My mom hands me

27:08

this book and I was

27:10

like, you should read this

27:13

book. Now that's not a

27:15

book you just hand to

27:17

some neophyte. Right. No new

27:19

believer. She should just be

27:21

sitting down with a monk's

27:23

thoughts. But my mama hands

27:25

me confessions like I'm doing

27:28

a dissertation in Theological Seminary

27:30

right I sit down with

27:32

confessions. I start reading it

27:34

and I literally I Paul

27:36

several times as I'm reading

27:38

through this and I'm like

27:40

I think I don't think

27:42

I'm supposed to be reading

27:45

this book. I think this

27:47

is a personal journal that

27:49

this man wrote And after

27:51

his death, somebody found it

27:53

and published it. I think

27:55

it's illegal. Because this seems

27:57

way too personal to be

28:00

a book. I feel like

28:02

I'm violating this man's thoughts.

28:04

It would be like sneaking

28:06

and finding somebody's journal and

28:08

reading it. Yeah. You know

28:10

what I mean? Like, I

28:12

don't think they wrote it

28:15

for you to read it.

28:17

Yeah. Even after they're dead.

28:19

I read that whole thing.

28:21

And he was so honest.

28:23

And there's levels. Honesty, transparency,

28:25

and vulnerability. or three different

28:27

things. That's good, could you

28:29

talk about that? Yeah, they're

28:32

not the same thing, right?

28:34

When you're honest about something,

28:36

you're not lying. Right. Do

28:38

you like Calamari? No. Thank

28:40

you for being honest. Like,

28:42

is your name Tim? Yes.

28:44

Thank you for being honest.

28:47

Like, that's an honest man.

28:49

Okay, you could also be

28:51

honest and not open. That's

28:53

true. Right, you know what

28:55

I mean? Like, you could

28:57

be cheating and never confess

28:59

that. But then when asked,

29:02

are you cheating on me?

29:04

Yes. Thank you for me

29:06

and honest. You didn't disclose

29:08

it. But I appreciate you

29:10

being honest. Right. I'm actually

29:12

a little bit miffed that

29:14

you were so honest. Were

29:16

you waiting for me to

29:19

ask you? Like, do you

29:21

want to be with me

29:23

no word? Like, what is

29:25

the problem? Right. Are you

29:27

cheating on me? Yes I

29:29

am. It's been happening for

29:31

seven years. Have a completely

29:34

different family in Chicago. Oh

29:36

my God. Right near the

29:38

lake. So glad we can

29:40

talk about this. So it's

29:42

like, okay, okay, right? So

29:44

honesty and openness are different.

29:46

Yeah, yeah. Transparency is being

29:49

see-through. Right, like your windows

29:51

are transparent, which is why.

29:53

We normally have finician blinds

29:55

or curtains or something to

29:57

cover our windows because our.

29:59

Windows allows to see through

30:01

a thing, right? Transluency doesn't allow

30:03

you to see through. It's clouded,

30:06

right? It's obscure. But transparency is,

30:08

I see through. The way I

30:10

describe transparency is if I walked

30:13

you on the outside of my

30:15

house and kept all the windows

30:17

open and put all the curtains

30:20

back, we walked around the circumference

30:22

of my house on the outside,

30:24

but I let you look in

30:27

every window. That's transparency. transparency

30:30

is you're looking through the window

30:32

and you can only see whatever's

30:35

in the viewpoint and vantage point of

30:37

the window you're looking right right

30:39

vulnerability is when I open the

30:41

door and give you a tour

30:43

on the of the inside of

30:45

my house where you have access to

30:47

things that you would never see

30:49

through the windows yeah yeah so

30:51

a deeper level of intimacy yeah

30:54

so what I say

30:56

about vulnerability is that

30:58

vulnerability is an extravagant

31:00

gift that every human

31:02

being has the opportunity

31:05

to give and it can never

31:07

be forced to be given.

31:09

Yeah. Vulnerability is

31:11

not required. It's a gift

31:14

that someone chooses to give.

31:16

You can't force somebody to

31:18

give that. So, um, the

31:21

Bible and St. Augustine's

31:23

Confessions are the two books

31:26

that made me go. Oh,

31:28

I'm supposed to live like

31:30

this. Like, I'm supposed to

31:33

live vulnerable. Some

31:35

people can't take that.

31:37

Can we pause right here?

31:39

Yeah, of course. Because I'm

31:42

gonna use your, to use

31:44

your words. Yeah, yeah, for

31:46

sure. Slow down. We in

31:48

the basement, y'all. Yeah. Okay.

31:51

You said vulnerability is the

31:53

way we're supposed to

31:55

live. I'm quite certain of

31:57

it. Why is it that?

32:00

We as believers in

32:02

general yeah, that's not

32:05

a thing. Yeah, well

32:07

humans is it's it's

32:09

it's not It is

32:11

not our default setting

32:13

and hasn't been since

32:15

Genesis three Mm-hmm. That

32:18

was our default setting

32:20

right up until Genesis

32:22

three right like Genesis

32:24

225 Second chapter Genesis

32:26

last verse and they

32:28

were naked and not

32:31

ashamed We lived in

32:33

vulnerability, we were created

32:35

to live in vulnerability.

32:37

Send changed that, right?

32:39

Right? So now we

32:41

have to retrain ourselves

32:43

back to what was

32:46

our default setting prior

32:48

to the sinful state.

32:50

Right. Because soon as

32:52

sin entered, they hid.

32:55

And they sold leaves. They

32:57

sold leaves. So we're hiding,

33:00

we're, for them to dive

33:02

into the bushes, they are

33:05

hiding amongst what they should

33:07

have been on the outside

33:09

managing. So when I see

33:12

somebody that throws themselves into

33:14

their work, they're doing exactly

33:17

what Edmund Eve did. Wow.

33:19

They're hiding in the thing

33:21

they're supposed to be on

33:24

the outside managing. Wow. Our

33:26

fallen nature has made hiding

33:29

our default. Yeah. And we

33:31

gotta retrain ourselves to live

33:33

in the light. So here's

33:36

the thing. Not only was

33:38

it difficult for me to

33:40

be vulnerable with people. For

33:43

sure. It was difficult for

33:45

me to be vulnerable with

33:48

people. For sure. It was

33:50

difficult for me to be

33:52

vulnerable with God. And

33:55

myself. Talk to you

33:57

by the people. Yeah.

34:00

Yeah, we are first encounters with

34:03

God are through people. And so

34:05

if the people are misrepresentations of

34:07

God, by the time we are

34:10

broken up to go to him

34:12

ourselves, we go to him like

34:14

we went to them. Yes. And

34:17

it's like I come to God

34:19

it's quite natural it really is

34:21

like fortunately like I would come

34:23

to God and be like I'm

34:26

trying to present him my bet

34:28

like put my best foot forward

34:30

and hide all the crap right

34:33

like he don't know like he

34:35

don't know like he don't know

34:37

like he don't know like he

34:39

don't know like he don't know

34:42

so I tell the story a

34:44

couple times and my sister she's

34:46

here I hope she don't mind

34:49

me telling this story but She

34:51

started this this journey of vulnerability

34:54

way before me, right? So She

34:56

tells the story about how one

34:58

time she was just going through

35:01

a lot just going through a

35:03

lot and You know sometimes we

35:05

can just have things pent up

35:08

and just like stuff down and

35:10

then when we come to God.

35:12

It's like Lord you're so good.

35:15

Yep. So amazing Right right but

35:17

inside your simmering yeah oh for

35:19

sure yeah and like there's just

35:22

some you just want to explode

35:24

yes and she felt like she

35:26

was driving her car and she

35:29

felt like I was like just

35:31

just tell me wow what is

35:33

it just tell me what it

35:36

is well but us the way

35:38

that we were brought up you

35:40

didn't question God you didn't you

35:43

didn't dare express express express Express

35:45

what? Yeah, exactly. You express your-

35:47

Express clothing? Exactly! It's the only

35:50

express we get to do. Right!

35:52

Like, expressing your real thoughts, that

35:54

was not a thing. And for

35:57

me, who's an introvert that keeps

35:59

everything. in and is very like

36:01

conservative and can seem

36:03

closed off yeah it was just

36:05

not a thing right but she

36:07

felt like I was like just

36:09

tell me and he just kept

36:11

tapping at her until she finally

36:14

was like you know what yeah

36:16

she pulled over yeah and just

36:18

let it all out yeah colorful

36:20

language and all yeah and I know

36:22

the saints they hear that and

36:24

they hear that and they're like

36:27

yeah they have seizures a little

36:29

But when she told me that

36:31

story to him, it did

36:33

something to my insights. Yeah. I

36:35

was like, wait, you mean I could

36:37

tell God what I really think? Like

36:40

you, you mean I could tell God

36:42

I'm angry at him? Yeah. You

36:44

can tell him I'm pissed off?

36:46

Yeah. Like I could really go

36:48

there with God. It was a

36:50

concept I had never known. Yeah. Which

36:52

is a, that makes me sad because

36:55

it lets me know that the,

36:57

the institutions of worship

36:59

that you were

37:01

in growing up played

37:04

hopscotch with the

37:06

text. What do you mean?

37:08

They were doing this. Because

37:11

like the majority

37:13

of the songs are anger.

37:16

It's true. It's like

37:18

some people pissed off.

37:20

Like I don't want

37:22

to do this no more. God, you're

37:25

good to them, but you ain't good

37:27

to me. Shoot. Like, if you just

37:29

slow walk in and, like, read it,

37:31

but if you play Hopscotch, which the

37:34

text, then. But even though that's in

37:36

the scripture, like, I know that that's

37:38

there, right? I read it, but it's

37:40

like, I would read it and still

37:42

feel bad for feeling some of the

37:45

same feelings that David felt in

37:47

the Bible. But this what I'm

37:49

saying, though, the institution of worshipships

37:52

that you were raised in. did

37:54

not normalize it. They don't

37:56

preach this stuff. Like you, like,

37:58

like we got. whole book on

38:01

limitations and we telling people

38:03

not to cry. Tim do

38:05

you know there was one

38:07

time I because I used

38:09

to struggle with depression yeah

38:12

and sometimes it comes up

38:14

but I'm learning to self-regulate

38:16

yeah I'm a dweller for

38:18

real yeah she had to

38:20

dwell her for real as

38:22

puff oh you don't ask

38:24

puff that's somebody else don't

38:27

ask puff But

38:30

no, I was, I was,

38:33

there was a season in

38:35

my life. I was struggling

38:37

hard body, like hardcore, like

38:39

I was struggling with suicidal

38:42

thoughts, and I'm leading worship,

38:44

but struggling so much. And

38:46

I remember a leader said

38:49

to me one time, in

38:51

a way that made me

38:53

feel really bad. How do

38:55

you lead worship then? And

38:58

I remember feeling like, because it

39:01

was a season where I couldn't

39:03

stop crying, like I just couldn't

39:05

stop crying. And I felt like,

39:07

I'm supposed to hide, I'm supposed

39:09

to put on this face, I'm

39:12

supposed to look like I'm okay

39:14

when I'm dying inside. Yeah, no.

39:16

Yeah, for sure, no. Everything felt

39:18

like a mask. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

39:20

yeah. Like I have to. Yeah,

39:22

yeah, yeah. We know how to

39:25

be prim and proper, we know

39:27

how to put on the face,

39:29

we know how to, when to

39:31

lift our hands, say hallelujah, you

39:33

know, we know how to do

39:36

all of that. Yeah, absolutely. But

39:38

like, I never felt free to

39:40

fully express who I was, where

39:42

I was, what I was struggling

39:44

with, what I was dealing with,

39:46

because you always felt like, well,

39:49

if you're honest, you won't get

39:51

set out. Yeah. You know what

39:53

I'm saying? It's so unfortunate. It's

39:55

so unfortunate. I have, I wanted

39:57

to read this, this chapter. It's

40:00

one of my favorites, okay? Asaf

40:02

writes this, this is Psalm 73,

40:04

oh yes, just let it marinate.

40:06

This is, okay, truly God is

40:08

good to Israel, to such as

40:11

our pure and heart. But as

40:13

for me, my feet had almost

40:15

stumbled. My steps had nearly slipped,

40:17

for I was envious of the

40:19

boastful when I saw the prosperity,

40:21

that's prosperity of the wicked. Now

40:24

right there, we won't even say

40:26

that in church. Okay. For there

40:28

are no payings in their death,

40:30

but their strength is firm. They

40:32

are not in trouble as other

40:35

men. They are not plagued, nor

40:37

they plague like other men. Therefore,

40:39

pride serves as their necklace. Violence

40:41

covers them like a garment. New

40:43

King James is just beautiful. But

40:46

their eyes bulge with indulgence. They

40:48

have more than... heart could wish.

40:50

They scoff and speak wickedly concerning

40:52

oppression. They speak loftily. They set

40:54

their mouth against the heavens and

40:56

their tongue walks through the earth.

40:59

Therefore, his people returned here and

41:01

waters of a cup, waters of

41:03

a full cup are drained by

41:05

them and they say, how does

41:07

God know? And is there knowledge

41:10

in the most high? Behold, these

41:12

are the ungodly. who are always

41:14

at ease, they increase in riches,

41:16

surely I have cleansed my heart

41:18

in vain, and wash my hands

41:21

in innocence. For all day long

41:23

I have been plagued, and chastened

41:25

every morning. If I had said,

41:27

I will speak thus, I will

41:29

speak like this. Behold, I would

41:31

have been untrue to the generation

41:34

of your children. When I thought

41:36

how to understand this, it was

41:38

too painful for me. until I

41:40

went into the sanctuary of God.

41:42

Then I understood their end. And

41:45

then it goes on to say,

41:47

like, all the stuff I was

41:49

thinking about, the wicked prospering, all

41:51

this kind of stuff, at the

41:53

end, they're gonna lose it all

41:56

anyway. But the way we read

41:58

this is that it all happened

42:00

in one fell swoop. I don't

42:02

know how long he wrestled with

42:04

one through 16 before he wrote

42:06

17. Right. Through the end of

42:09

the chapter. Right. But we always

42:11

like to think it's just just

42:13

one linear straight through thing. Yeah.

42:15

And we don't understand how you

42:17

can lead worship and still be

42:20

sad. That just means you're human.

42:22

But you're not supposed to be

42:24

too. Yeah, but that's what happens

42:26

when you take out ants and

42:28

put in butts. Some

42:32

of us need to throw

42:35

away the but-god statement and

42:37

just start putting in and

42:40

God. That part, yes. Yes.

42:42

I had failed miserably, but

42:44

God. No, you failed miserably

42:47

and God. That part, yes.

42:49

Ain't no but-god? Yeah. And

42:52

God, yeah, yeah. Who is

42:54

rich and mercy? Drew you

42:56

back to him with his

42:59

ever-loving kindness. There's room for

43:01

both. Yeah. He is lion

43:04

and lamb. Yeah. He is

43:06

alpha and omega, first and

43:08

last, beginning and end. Not

43:11

but. And. He was fully

43:13

God and fully manned. Not

43:16

but. And. Yeah. So if

43:18

he can hold the tension

43:20

of those two things, to

43:23

say he can't hold the

43:25

tension of our sinfulness and

43:28

our righteousness is crazy. It's

43:30

crazy to think that every

43:32

preacher preaching preaching on a

43:35

Sunday. Is. Happy. We watched

43:37

people blow their brains out

43:40

after preaching sermons. He looked

43:42

happy yesterday. He's dead today.

43:44

So let's not, and the

43:47

people that listened to that

43:49

sermon got saved. Then he

43:52

blew his brains out. That's

43:54

why this podcast means so

43:56

much to me. Because I

43:59

got... really sick and tired

44:01

of us not being honest

44:03

about where we are and what's

44:06

going on. Yeah. And then you

44:08

hear about another worship

44:10

leader go or someone going

44:12

to commit suicide. Yeah. Yeah.

44:14

It's like don't think that

44:17

a smile on the face is

44:19

there's scripture and

44:21

proverbs that talks about you

44:23

can laugh and you can

44:25

laugh and you can smile

44:27

but There's still sadness there.

44:29

Yeah, there can still be

44:32

sadness there. Sure. And it's

44:34

like, because I know what it's

44:36

like to live in depression,

44:38

I never want someone

44:40

that I know close to me

44:42

that's going through the same

44:44

thing to live there by

44:46

themselves. Yeah, it's good. I never

44:48

want anyone to feel like

44:50

they gotta go through this alone.

44:52

Yeah. Because I know it was

44:54

like to go through it alone.

44:57

Shame on you. Yeah for

45:00

going through this But it's

45:02

like when you're in

45:05

ministry It's this Thing

45:07

where we have to

45:09

be superhuman. Yeah That's

45:11

why I love When Paul

45:14

talks about the thorn in

45:16

the flesh, you know, I

45:18

love that scripture so much

45:21

because here's a giant

45:23

I know you don't

45:25

like the phrase giant

45:27

who was responsible for more

45:29

than half of the New

45:32

Testament, or half the

45:34

New Testament. And here he

45:36

is expressing his weakness. You

45:38

don't see that typically from

45:41

leadership in ministry. And for

45:43

me, I'm so impacted by,

45:45

because I love, growing up,

45:48

I didn't really have like mentors and

45:50

worship. in worship ministry, right? I didn't

45:52

have anybody to take me under their

45:54

arm and be a mentor to me.

45:56

I would observe, I would watch people

45:59

and I'd be... like, you know,

46:01

impacted by their ministry, but

46:03

to have someone actually take

46:05

me under their arm, I

46:07

didn't have that. So I

46:09

would, you know, I go

46:11

on YouTube and I look

46:13

up other worship leaders like

46:15

Michael Bethany. I followed him

46:17

from when I was like

46:19

young, you know, when he

46:21

was singing with Fred Hammond.

46:23

Means so much to me

46:25

is when they're honest about

46:28

where they like tasha cops

46:30

for instance She struggled with

46:32

depression anxiety for years. Yeah,

46:34

her opening up about that

46:36

I Think she was the

46:38

first worship leader that I

46:40

ever heard talk that openly.

46:42

Yeah about depression Yeah, because

46:44

when I'm telling you Tim

46:46

there were times I'd be

46:48

in my room I'd be

46:50

in my room feeling

46:53

like I just want to

46:55

die. Yeah, for sure. And I

46:58

got to lead worship tomorrow.

47:00

Yeah. Who do I talk

47:02

to? Yeah. My own leader made

47:04

me feel like I was

47:06

over ash because Because I'm

47:08

where I am. Yeah, because I

47:10

can't stop crying. Yep. Who

47:12

do I who do I go

47:15

to? Yeah. So to hear when

47:17

I hear worship leaders, I

47:19

hear people in ministry leaders that

47:22

are very open. failures and their

47:24

mistakes and their struggles. It

47:26

just, it's a breath of

47:28

freaking fresh air. It is, because

47:31

don't it seem like really

47:33

biblical? Because I've been, I've been,

47:35

I've been reading everybody else and

47:37

they're stupidity and they're failures

47:39

and stuff. I'm like, oh, so

47:42

you wanted them too. Right. So

47:44

I guess we can find

47:46

ourselves in the text. We

47:48

are here, aren't we, we, we're

47:51

not, it wasn't just them.

47:53

Couldn't just been them. Can I

47:55

tell you my first, because I

47:57

grew up in a legalistic

47:59

environment too, when I first got

48:02

saved, everybody was going here. Everybody,

48:04

including me. Right, I was

48:06

preaching to everybody's going to hell,

48:09

include, I'm gonna join you, I'm

48:11

gonna be right behind you.

48:13

It wasn't like, you go

48:15

into hell, and I was like,

48:17

nigga, I'm gonna be right

48:19

behind you. But you're going first,

48:22

because you was at the club.

48:24

I just still have a

48:26

porn addiction, but you go at

48:29

first, because you're at the club.

48:31

Right, my little magazine is

48:33

in between my mattress. You

48:35

gonna bust hell. Wow. Yeah, I

48:38

was like, nah, this kid.

48:40

Okay, so I'm like, I was

48:42

super legalistic, right? And because I

48:44

grew up in a legalistic

48:46

environment, apostolic, so I know about

48:49

it. Like, I know, I know,

48:51

we went around, my daddy

48:53

was cogic, mama was raised

48:55

holiness, and we wound up in

48:58

an apostolic church. Yeah. And

49:00

yeah, I was like, nah, this.

49:02

So I, the most suicidalital I

49:04

was. The most suicidal ideation,

49:06

not like contemplation, and like, this

49:09

is how I'm gonna do it,

49:11

but the most suicidal ideation

49:13

I ever had in my life

49:16

was probably my first, probably decade

49:18

in ministry, decade as a

49:20

believer. Because I could never

49:22

reconcile my flesh with. His

49:25

holiness and like I couldn't I

49:27

couldn't do I couldn't do I

49:29

my streak one long enough I

49:31

couldn't get it I couldn't string

49:34

them to get I couldn't string

49:36

them days together Yeah, you know

49:38

I'm saying the OSHA sign, you

49:40

know 42 days without accident. Yeah,

49:43

I didn't right I didn't get

49:45

a cool 30 before I had

49:47

done something stupid. You know what

49:49

I mean? It felt like oh

49:52

man. Let me recommit my life

49:54

to Jesus and try again and

49:56

erase you know 22 days and

49:58

write zero. again start over right

50:01

so it was it was like

50:03

a very when you come from

50:05

a legalistic background I think there's

50:07

pros and cons to both when

50:10

you come from a grace background

50:12

you don't think nothing's wrong right

50:14

and when you come from a

50:16

legalistic background everything is wrong right

50:19

so it was just like yeah

50:21

I most of my suicidal ideation

50:23

was caused by the by the

50:25

by the by the church by

50:28

by what I was taught and

50:30

because I really thought like something

50:32

because Okay, thank you. Holy Spirit,

50:34

let me slow down. It was,

50:37

it was what I was taught

50:39

and the lack of vulnerability. Yes.

50:41

Yeah. And forget vulnerability, even the

50:43

transparency. Yeah. I didn't even hear

50:46

a pastor say, I struggle with

50:48

this. Yeah. You know what I'm

50:50

saying? Yeah. So I'm like, I

50:52

don't have no point of reference

50:55

for it. It must be just

50:57

me. Yeah. I can't get it

50:59

right. And that's when the enemy

51:01

starts going, you don't. Everybody. Look

51:04

at everybody else walking around here

51:06

free. And I didn't know they

51:08

was also... Toa. You know what

51:10

I'm saying? But I'm like, I

51:13

found out later, I said, well,

51:15

compared to you, I was... Due

51:17

to five! I was making snow

51:19

angels in the snow. That snowing.

51:22

I was in Aspen, compared to

51:24

you. You was in Death Valley!

51:26

So, it was a, it took

51:28

time to come out of the

51:31

skin. There's this beautiful word that

51:33

I learned in a book called

51:35

the Emperor of Ocean Park. I

51:37

think they're making a movie out

51:40

of it right now, so. But

51:42

the Emperor of Ocean Park, this

51:44

word, Ectesis. It means the shedding

51:46

of a snake skin, the outer

51:49

layer of the skin. And I

51:51

feel like, whatever you want to

51:53

call it. Deconstructionism. The ecstasist I

51:55

had to leave church for whatever

51:58

you have to come I of

52:00

the skin you were born

52:02

again in. Yeah. So that

52:04

you can like, okay, I'm

52:07

really, I'm really before

52:09

God now. Yeah. Yeah. Without

52:11

the trappings of these

52:13

teachings and this

52:16

theology and this. So

52:18

yeah, it takes time. For

52:20

me it took moving, because

52:22

I grew up in New

52:25

York. So I moved to

52:27

Florida in 2020, the end

52:29

of 2020. I think that

52:32

was the beginning of,

52:34

what did you

52:36

call it? The

52:38

echtesis. Echtesis. Echtesis.

52:40

Echtesis. Echtesis. That.

52:42

Yeah. That's when

52:44

I started doing that.

52:47

And it's crazy because

52:49

when I started my

52:51

podcast, the first season

52:54

was cute. It was

52:56

great. But I felt like

52:58

the Lord was like, that

53:00

was cute or whatever. But

53:02

what I mean. Your God

53:05

is from New York. Facts.

53:07

That was cute or whatever.

53:09

Shorty. That was cute or

53:12

whatever. That was cute or

53:14

whatever. But hold on though.

53:16

Give me one moment though.

53:19

Beto what I need you

53:21

to do. Beto. Beto. Beto.

53:23

Beto wow. I

53:27

lived in Harlem for some time.

53:29

So what I felt like the

53:31

low was like, I need you to

53:33

go in. I need you to be more

53:36

honest. This is why your

53:38

podcast was so crucial for

53:40

me because I'm taking in

53:43

all of your episodes and

53:45

your honesty and your

53:47

vulnerability and your transparent,

53:49

like all of it.

53:52

And I felt like the low

53:54

was like, I need you to be.

53:56

more honest, more vulnerable

53:58

about way. you are

54:00

and what's going on with

54:02

you and and even bringing

54:04

on guests that can meet

54:07

me in that same vein

54:09

and so at the time

54:11

I was like all right

54:13

cool for show yeah yeah

54:15

yeah yeah that's the woke

54:17

thing to do right right

54:19

right right I got you

54:21

until life starts lifeing yes

54:23

Yeah, all of that that

54:25

you're going through, all that

54:27

anxiety, all of that, I

54:29

need you to talk about

54:31

that. And I was like,

54:33

no. Yes, of course. It's

54:35

like, what do you mean?

54:38

Yeah, yeah. You want me

54:40

to, you want me to

54:42

tell all these people, I

54:44

have built a reputation, God.

54:46

I have, what you mean?

54:48

You want me to just

54:50

come out here and just

54:52

be like, yeah, I'm struggling

54:54

with anxiety, like, hella bad.

54:56

I can't breathe. There are

54:58

times I'm on the platform

55:00

and I can't breathe. Or

55:02

there are times that I

55:04

have suicide or ideation. Not

55:07

that I wouldn't want to

55:09

do anything, but it's like

55:11

I'd rather die. Yeah, exactly.

55:13

You want me to talk

55:15

about that? Yeah. You really

55:17

want me to just put

55:19

myself out here? And the

55:21

Lord's like, yeah. Yeah, that.

55:23

And I can't tell you,

55:25

season two was really special

55:27

because... That was the beginning

55:29

of me doing that. Wow.

55:31

And the response is that

55:33

I was getting from people.

55:35

Thank you so much for

55:38

just being honest. Thank you

55:40

for telling us where you

55:42

are. Yeah. This vulnerability, like,

55:44

no one ever talks about

55:46

these things. Thank you so

55:48

much. And I was like,

55:50

well, I'm so glad you're

55:52

getting blessed, but I'm out

55:54

here just dying. Yeah. Facts.

55:56

It's very, it's facts. You

55:58

know what I'm saying. There's

56:00

a cause. It costs something

56:02

to go first. It does.

56:04

And that's what, that's, you

56:06

know, when you, I'll never

56:09

forget, I'll share my testimony

56:11

somewhere. I can't remember where

56:13

I was. All I remember

56:15

is somebody walked up to

56:17

me and said, thank you

56:19

for giving these people the

56:21

gift to go second. I

56:23

said, what? They said, yeah,

56:25

when you tell your testimony,

56:27

you go first. which

56:29

gives everybody else the gift

56:32

of going second and third

56:34

and fourth and fifth and

56:36

sixth. It's easy to be

56:38

the second person up. Right.

56:40

Right. That's a fact. Third,

56:42

fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh. Right.

56:44

It takes bravery to go

56:46

first. It just takes bravery.

56:48

And when you choose to

56:50

do it, that's why everybody,

56:52

thank you for talking about

56:54

this. It's much needed. I'll

56:56

go through the same thing.

56:58

You already know our community,

57:00

like it's full of two

57:02

through four hundred seventy two

57:05

thousand, whatever, right? Like, like,

57:07

but it's, we give people

57:09

the gift to go second.

57:11

Yeah. And when you give

57:13

somebody the gift to go

57:15

second, we have to acknowledge

57:17

what it costs to go

57:19

first. It's not easy. You

57:21

have the shame hangovers. You

57:23

have the did I overshare

57:25

share. Should I edit that?

57:27

Should not? I probably should

57:29

put that out. You know

57:31

what I mean? You go

57:33

through all of these iterations

57:35

and then the Holy Spirit

57:38

is like, go eat a

57:40

sandwich and shut up. Because

57:42

it's going out as is

57:44

and you're like, no, boo.

57:46

Leave me alone. Actually, that's

57:48

interesting. You say that because

57:50

season one, I feel like

57:52

I did a lot of

57:54

chopping up. I did a

57:56

lot of editing. Oh, a

57:58

lot of editing. Yeah, yeah,

58:00

yeah, yeah. Season 2. out

58:02

here. But they Genesis 225

58:04

and she was naked and

58:06

not ashamed well parenthetically a

58:09

little bit of shame but

58:11

she decided to just keep

58:13

it out there anyway like

58:15

you know what are you

58:17

gonna do like last year

58:19

like last year for me

58:21

like was a very all

58:23

of me came out in

58:25

2023 and what I realized

58:27

was like I

58:30

had to like let that live. It

58:32

is, it's a side of me, obviously

58:35

that would never be appropriate in a

58:37

pool pit or something like that. But

58:39

this is a side of me that's

58:41

always been in people's green rooms at

58:43

their houses, all that kind of stuff.

58:45

And so I knew that there would

58:47

be a reaction. I did not know

58:50

the reaction would be as it was.

58:52

But I was like, you know what?

58:54

I'd rather y'all see all of that

58:56

and then make a decision if you

58:58

want to, because that's all me. Yeah,

59:00

yeah. Don't act like I lost, I

59:02

didn't lose my mind that day. Right,

59:04

right. I didn't go crazy. I didn't

59:07

spas out. I've never been drunk in

59:09

my life. I'm not under the influence

59:11

of an illegal substance or a legal

59:13

one. I don't have no medicated gummies

59:15

on this episode. Like, you know what

59:17

I mean? If this is bothering you,

59:19

I'd rather you make that decision. Like,

59:22

not that I was hiding it before,

59:24

but it just wouldn't, it didn't manifest

59:26

itself. Like, you know what I mean?

59:28

If I'm out of all-white conference, then

59:30

I'm probably not gonna say what's what's

59:32

up, what's up, what's up, what's up,

59:34

what's up, what's up, like, like, like,

59:37

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

59:39

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

59:41

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

59:43

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

59:45

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

59:47

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

59:49

like, Even the white chocolate niggas is

59:52

not gonna get that for me. Right?

59:54

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But

59:56

it's like, if you hurt me on

59:58

my couch. Yeah. That's... That's really who

1:00:00

I am. I'm from LA. Yeah, yeah.

1:00:02

I'm from Englewood. Yeah. We all

1:00:04

talk like this. Yeah. I eulogize

1:00:06

all my dead homies. I'm the only,

1:00:09

I'm like the eulogist for all my

1:00:11

dead homies. Like when I go back,

1:00:13

they, those are my nakers. And they

1:00:15

will be for life. Like those are my

1:00:17

dudes. I grew up with them dudes, you

1:00:19

know what I mean? So it's, it's, it's

1:00:22

a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's

1:00:24

a, it's a, it's a, it's a,

1:00:26

But you go first and then

1:00:28

people get to go second, third,

1:00:30

fourth, and fifth. And most

1:00:32

people don't understand

1:00:34

the bravery that it takes to

1:00:36

go, I'm gonna let you deal

1:00:39

with my humanity. Yeah. Because

1:00:41

I'm gonna let you see

1:00:43

it. And then you can judge

1:00:45

it or misjudge it or whatever,

1:00:47

but it is what I said

1:00:49

what I said. Let me, let me,

1:00:51

let me, since you brought up

1:00:53

Paul. Let me just get to the

1:00:56

beauty of him. Okay, so that's

1:00:58

12 Starting around nine, right? I'll

1:01:00

start at the seventh first and

1:01:02

lest I should be exalted above

1:01:04

measure by the abundance of revelations

1:01:06

A thorn in the flesh was

1:01:08

given to me a messenger of

1:01:11

Satan to buffet me. Lest I

1:01:13

be exalted above measure concerning this

1:01:15

Thing I pleaded with the Lord

1:01:17

three times that it might depart

1:01:19

for me and he said to me in

1:01:22

red my grace is It's sufficient for

1:01:24

you and my strength is made

1:01:26

perfect in weakness. Little preacher

1:01:28

nugget. Jesus is the only one that

1:01:30

could have responded to him.

1:01:32

That's why Jesus responded personally. No

1:01:35

angel, no Gabriel, no, right? Had

1:01:37

to be Jesus. Yeah. Because Jesus is

1:01:39

the only one that prayed for something

1:01:42

three times that happened and it didn't.

1:01:44

So he could identify with Paul. Yeah. He

1:01:46

prayed three times for the cup to pass.

1:01:48

Yeah. And it didn't. Yeah. So now he's

1:01:50

coming to Paul going. I know what it

1:01:53

is. To pray three times for something

1:01:55

to... Yeah, I get it. But

1:01:57

it... Yeah. No. And no. Didn't

1:01:59

have... for me, it's not gonna

1:02:02

happen for you. Here's Paul's

1:02:04

conclusion. Therefore, most gladly, I

1:02:06

will boast in my infirmities

1:02:08

or weaknesses that the power

1:02:10

of Christ may rest upon

1:02:12

me. Therefore, I take pleasure

1:02:14

in my infirmities and reproaches

1:02:16

and needs in persecutions and

1:02:18

distresses for Christ's sake for

1:02:20

when I am weak, then

1:02:22

I am strong. I grew

1:02:24

up in a culture of

1:02:26

like the disc test and

1:02:28

like strength finders and Myers

1:02:30

Briggs and INFJs my you

1:02:33

know personalities. I'm like we

1:02:35

should have weak finders. I'm

1:02:37

done with everybody's strength. Just

1:02:39

tell me where you suck.

1:02:41

Thank you. Off rip. Just

1:02:43

tell me your top five

1:02:45

suckiest things. I'm depressed. I

1:02:47

struggle with anxiety, you know,

1:02:49

I have low self-esteem, whatever

1:02:51

it is, right? I'm a

1:02:53

liar under pressure. I struggle

1:02:55

with comparison. Okay, I'm unfaithful.

1:02:57

Yeah, I mean, if it's

1:02:59

not for the Lord, I'll

1:03:01

cheat on you right now.

1:03:03

I'll cheat on this video

1:03:06

game. I'll cheat in spades.

1:03:08

I'll cheat on. I cheat

1:03:10

on Supermar, brother, to this

1:03:12

day. If I don't have

1:03:14

up, up, down, left, right,

1:03:16

left, right, right, right, B.A.

1:03:18

Start, I don't know. Like,

1:03:20

you know what I'm saying?

1:03:22

Like, I would rather you

1:03:24

just... Yeah. Oh, how church

1:03:26

would be so... I'm petty.

1:03:28

If you get on Petty,

1:03:30

if you... I'm petty, I'm

1:03:32

petty. If you get on

1:03:34

Petty, I'm petty. I'm petty.

1:03:37

I'm gonna read. I'm gonna

1:03:39

read you first. I'm gonna

1:03:41

read. Yeah, yeah, I would

1:03:43

like at least give me

1:03:45

the opportunity to be like

1:03:47

I can't do petty. Yeah,

1:03:49

like you know what I

1:03:51

mean? Yeah, I can, I

1:03:53

don't like liars either, but

1:03:55

like, you gonna, you gonna

1:03:57

tell me when you lie,

1:03:59

right? Like you ain't gonna

1:04:01

hold a lie. You'll tell

1:04:03

me. Like, because we all

1:04:05

got something. Yeah. On our

1:04:07

worst day, or if we

1:04:10

miss lunch, or if we're

1:04:12

in traffic, if we're grieving

1:04:14

and you catch us, I'm.

1:04:16

I can't guarantee what is

1:04:18

and what's not. All I

1:04:20

know is I'm trying to

1:04:22

stay submitted to the Holy

1:04:24

Spirit and as I'm a

1:04:26

tour it should happen less

1:04:28

but you might catch me

1:04:30

on a day. Yeah. Is

1:04:32

all I'm saying. You mess

1:04:34

with my kids, you talk

1:04:36

to my wife wrong. All

1:04:38

the stuff, you know what

1:04:40

I mean? Yeah. It's a,

1:04:43

it's, that's normal. Like Paul

1:04:45

is saying I'm gonna just

1:04:47

tell you where I'm weak.

1:04:49

Like he didn't have to

1:04:51

do no open letter to

1:04:53

the Corinthian church to let

1:04:55

them know he got a

1:04:57

thorn. But he did. Well

1:04:59

everybody else trying to tell

1:05:01

us what's another tick on

1:05:03

their resume and what other

1:05:05

award they got and how

1:05:07

many more people were added

1:05:09

to their church and how

1:05:11

many people they baptized Paul

1:05:14

over here dropping dyes on

1:05:16

the self. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:18

Yeah. So that's what I'm

1:05:20

that's what my brain is.

1:05:22

And that's what I'm trying

1:05:24

to live. I don't want

1:05:26

I'm tired of the fake

1:05:28

me to I'm tired of

1:05:30

the facade. I'm tired of

1:05:32

being one way in in

1:05:34

front of certain people you

1:05:36

know what I can't stand

1:05:38

please to I'm just gonna

1:05:40

put this out I want

1:05:42

it I want to know

1:05:44

I would I really peppy

1:05:47

you know how like you

1:05:49

can meet somebody in ministry

1:05:51

like I've worked for churches

1:05:53

you know for many many

1:05:55

many years and you can

1:05:57

be dealing with somebody, talking,

1:05:59

having a conversation with somebody,

1:06:01

but immediately when Pastor So

1:06:03

and So walks into the

1:06:05

room, suddenly you don't exist.

1:06:07

This is the worst. I

1:06:09

know exactly what you're talking

1:06:11

about and it's the worst.

1:06:13

I'm sick. I'm sick. I'm

1:06:15

sick. Say it again. I

1:06:17

just want to make sure.

1:06:20

You're sick of it. You're

1:06:22

sick of it. Yeah. I

1:06:24

don't, I don't, I don't,

1:06:26

I don't like that two-faced

1:06:28

kind of, I just, I

1:06:30

don't want no parts. I

1:06:32

want that when I die,

1:06:34

they'd be like, she was

1:06:36

the same with me, with

1:06:38

him. That's right. She was

1:06:40

genuine authentic. You know what

1:06:42

that's about though, right? What?

1:06:44

It is about a strong

1:06:46

dislike for oneself that needs

1:06:48

approval from the people they've

1:06:51

chosen to validate them. Yeah.

1:06:53

They don't like them. It

1:06:55

ain't got nothing to do

1:06:57

with you. They've

1:06:59

just what they've deemed is that

1:07:01

You're not the person that can

1:07:04

validate me the way I want

1:07:06

I need somebody that I have

1:07:08

chosen To be The type of

1:07:11

person that can speak into my

1:07:13

life and give me some type

1:07:15

of validation And so that's why

1:07:18

when they walk into the room,

1:07:20

you no longer exist because they

1:07:22

need that person to notice them.

1:07:25

Yeah Yeah, it's a sad. It's

1:07:27

sad. It's disgusting. And it's, it's,

1:07:29

it's, um, yeah, they miss rich,

1:07:32

deep relationships. Yes. Waiting for this

1:07:34

superficial, not calling the person superficial,

1:07:36

but that person's not gonna give

1:07:39

you what you need. Right. And

1:07:41

if they do give it to

1:07:43

you, they gotta continue to give

1:07:46

it to you, because you have

1:07:48

a hole in your soul. So

1:07:50

it's gonna leak. Yeah. Yeah. Okay,

1:07:53

I gotta. Okay, I'm gonna switch.

1:07:56

One of the things that

1:07:58

I really wanted to talk

1:08:01

to you about because I

1:08:03

didn't know who else to

1:08:05

have this conversation with. I

1:08:08

like this. Women in ministry,

1:08:10

let's go. Sweet, too easy.

1:08:12

I'm just gonna go here.

1:08:15

Go. You're already there, let's

1:08:17

get it. Okay. Coming from

1:08:19

where I was, in New

1:08:22

York, we didn't really have,

1:08:24

at least I didn't feel

1:08:26

this, women can't do this,

1:08:29

women can't do that, when

1:08:31

we can't speak, Whatever. We

1:08:33

actually had a lot of

1:08:36

female leaders. And in the

1:08:38

context of like worship ministry,

1:08:40

because that's my biggest, that's

1:08:43

where I'm in, we had

1:08:45

a lot of female worship

1:08:47

leaders. Yeah. A lot. It

1:08:50

wasn't until I moved, and

1:08:52

I don't know if this

1:08:54

is a southern thing. It

1:08:57

is a southern thing. Okay.

1:08:59

Before you even get into

1:09:01

it. Oh, it's southern. Bless

1:09:04

you. Because I moved down

1:09:06

south. Yes, you did. And

1:09:08

I was like, wait a

1:09:11

second. I started noticing that

1:09:13

women in ministry, women are

1:09:15

not, especially if you're single,

1:09:18

are not treated with the

1:09:20

same respect as a man

1:09:22

in ministry. Period. And in

1:09:25

like the context of worship

1:09:27

ministry, I started asking around,

1:09:29

started asking some of my

1:09:32

friends, guys, ladies, do you

1:09:34

think... Men out, what's the

1:09:36

word, dominate, worship ministry, and

1:09:39

everybody was like, yes, for

1:09:41

sure. But that's besides the

1:09:43

point. The point is, it

1:09:46

feels to me like women,

1:09:48

especially if you're single, are

1:09:50

not treated with the same

1:09:53

respect. For me, I remember.

1:09:55

joining a particular ministry and

1:09:58

being asked on the my

1:10:00

first day, are you married?

1:10:02

And I said, no. And

1:10:05

they said, oh. And you

1:10:07

kind of felt like

1:10:09

they kind of checked

1:10:11

out of the

1:10:13

conversation. And I

1:10:15

remember feeling like, so

1:10:17

am I less than because

1:10:20

I'm not married? And

1:10:22

then I started noticing,

1:10:25

like, women who

1:10:27

are married. are

1:10:29

held here, women who are

1:10:31

single are kind of held

1:10:34

down here, and then if

1:10:36

you're man, you're held

1:10:39

up here. Single are married.

1:10:41

Right. You can't be

1:10:43

promoted unless you're

1:10:46

married. You are not in

1:10:48

the same rooms, unless

1:10:50

you're a guy. You don't

1:10:52

have access to

1:10:54

mentorship. Because you're

1:10:57

a woman and you're

1:10:59

single at that so

1:11:01

you can't be mentored

1:11:03

by a man because

1:11:05

something will happen. I

1:11:07

don't know. And you just

1:11:09

kind of made to feel

1:11:11

like you're this big.

1:11:13

What do you do? Like, what

1:11:16

are you supposed to do?

1:11:18

Like, what am I supposed to

1:11:20

do? You know what I'm saying?

1:11:22

Like, I would like to learn

1:11:24

and grow and be mentor, but

1:11:26

it's like, these men make you

1:11:28

feel like you go rape them. I

1:11:31

don't know. It's like, it's like, I

1:11:33

don't understand. I don't understand. And

1:11:35

it's like, they don't realize we're

1:11:37

not in the rooms. We don't

1:11:39

get to go. play golf with

1:11:41

y'all. We don't go out to

1:11:43

lunch with y'all. So we're not

1:11:46

getting the same help. We're not

1:11:48

getting the same mentorship. We're not

1:11:50

getting the same. You know what

1:11:52

I'm trying to, you know what I'm

1:11:54

saying? I know, everything you saying out

1:11:57

your mouth, I understand it. And sometimes

1:11:59

it kids. It gets so

1:12:01

frustrating when you're in

1:12:03

a place where they

1:12:05

hold up marriage, like

1:12:08

it's the epitome of

1:12:10

success and it's the

1:12:12

epitome of everything and

1:12:14

you as a single

1:12:16

person, it's like, well,

1:12:18

just don't mess up,

1:12:20

you know what I'm

1:12:23

saying? And it just,

1:12:25

sometimes, there are times

1:12:27

if I'm being like

1:12:29

straight up honest, there

1:12:31

are times when I'm

1:12:33

like, man, I wish

1:12:35

I was a dude.

1:12:38

Maybe life would be

1:12:40

easier. Maybe ministry would

1:12:42

be easier. Maybe I

1:12:44

would get to the

1:12:46

rooms that I'd love

1:12:48

to get into or

1:12:51

be a part of

1:12:53

the conversations that I'd

1:12:55

like to or be

1:12:57

at the table that

1:12:59

I'd like but Nobody's

1:13:01

gonna ask my opinion.

1:13:03

Nobody wants nobody sees

1:13:06

me. You know what

1:13:08

I'm saying? And there

1:13:10

are so many young

1:13:12

Young girls that I

1:13:14

know that Have ambitions

1:13:16

from ministry, but it

1:13:18

just seems like it's

1:13:21

never gonna happen for

1:13:23

you because you're a

1:13:25

woman and you're single

1:13:27

at that You know,

1:13:29

yeah, what are your

1:13:31

thoughts? Oh, I hope

1:13:34

everything I said made

1:13:36

sense. It made perfect

1:13:38

sense. Okay. And it's

1:13:40

heartbreaking. I've had this

1:13:42

conversation more times and

1:13:44

I'd like to have

1:13:46

this conversation. And it's

1:13:49

so stupid. The South

1:13:51

is so spiritually rich

1:13:53

and so spiritually corrupt.

1:13:55

The South. and

1:13:58

so expensive. That

1:14:00

part. Guess a

1:14:03

fact. The South.

1:14:06

Gosh, it's so

1:14:08

good. And so

1:14:11

bad. And I

1:14:13

haven't even talked

1:14:16

about the church

1:14:19

in the South

1:14:21

yet. That's just

1:14:24

the South. Yeah.

1:14:26

The churchy South?

1:14:32

True or false? Facts.

1:14:35

Okay, you're gonna predominantly

1:14:37

white church and the

1:14:40

white men in the

1:14:42

South pride themselves on

1:14:45

their purity and they

1:14:47

pride themselves on their

1:14:50

on their morals and

1:14:52

That pride comes at

1:14:55

the expense of the

1:14:58

value of the value

1:15:00

of women For

1:15:04

some reason

1:15:07

these Lord

1:15:10

help my

1:15:13

tongue. Help

1:15:16

my tongue

1:15:19

be as

1:15:21

one with

1:15:24

you. Hold

1:15:27

my tongue.

1:15:33

Hold my tongue, Lord. Is

1:15:35

this a real song though?

1:15:38

I'm making it up as

1:15:40

I go alone. For some

1:15:43

reason, these white men in

1:15:45

the South, their purity comes

1:15:47

at the expense of a

1:15:50

women's value. Yes. For some

1:15:52

reason, these niggas can't be

1:15:54

pure and hold their morals

1:15:57

in the presence of a

1:15:59

woman. Single

1:16:01

or married? If we're keeping

1:16:04

it a book, why is

1:16:06

it that the single woman

1:16:09

is devalued even more than

1:16:11

the married woman? Because if

1:16:13

I did have a thing

1:16:16

for you, I'm not committing

1:16:18

adultery. It's just for an

1:16:21

occasion. All right, so for

1:16:23

your whole womanhood to be

1:16:26

reduced down to your vagina

1:16:28

as a threat is absolutely

1:16:30

crazy. And offensive. Yeah, it's

1:16:33

absolutely offensive. I'll tell you

1:16:35

another thing that's offensive. It's

1:16:38

egregious to think for them

1:16:40

to think that you want

1:16:42

them Nobody checking for you.

1:16:45

They got one mentorship. You

1:16:47

know, thank you. Nobody wants

1:16:50

your pink weenie No, I

1:16:52

don't and I don't know

1:16:55

if you like white men

1:16:57

or not. I'm just saying

1:17:03

Blake, nobody's checking for you.

1:17:05

Every doesn't want you. She's

1:17:08

trying to get, she's trying

1:17:10

to get put on game

1:17:12

like you gave the other

1:17:14

five dudes you mentored. Yes.

1:17:16

All I'm saying is I'm

1:17:19

trying to be a dope

1:17:21

worship pastor like you. I

1:17:23

can't go to lunch. We

1:17:25

gonna do, some gonna happen

1:17:27

at high no niggit. At

1:17:30

Applebee's? We're a chickfilly, we

1:17:32

can't have four chicken strips

1:17:34

together in a public chickfilly

1:17:36

without somebody thinking, oh. I

1:17:38

saw Blake with that single

1:17:41

black girl, that tall glass

1:17:43

of hot chocolate. You know

1:17:45

what could happen, he might

1:17:47

drink it. Blake might drink

1:17:49

the hot chocolate. Yo, I'm

1:17:52

not to be under this

1:17:54

couch. It might be, it

1:17:56

would be a reproach on.

1:17:58

Oh. And it will

1:18:01

be her fault for going out

1:18:03

with him somehow to be your

1:18:05

fault. Right, right, right, right, right.

1:18:07

It's never their fault. No. You're

1:18:09

you're Jezebel now. You Jezebel your

1:18:11

way into the... So... I'm sick

1:18:13

of it. I'm as sick as

1:18:15

it as you are. Yeah. And

1:18:18

if I could find him, I'd

1:18:20

punch him in the face. With

1:18:22

my words. I'm not gonna do

1:18:24

it. I don't want a physical

1:18:26

altercation, but I'm sick and tired

1:18:28

of women. I can close my

1:18:30

eyes and you sound like every

1:18:33

woman in every church that has

1:18:35

that same structure in that same

1:18:37

spirit. And it just bothers me.

1:18:39

It's not the way, you cannot

1:18:41

make me believe that this is

1:18:43

the way Paul would have handled

1:18:45

it. He would be empowering women

1:18:47

and they would be. unleashed all

1:18:50

around the church. Y'all can try

1:18:52

to point to your couple of

1:18:54

verses in Timothy and in Corinthians

1:18:56

about women keeping silent and all

1:18:58

that kind of stuff. You can

1:19:00

point to it. I still think

1:19:02

it's cultural. You might think that

1:19:05

it's universal. That's your opinion theologically.

1:19:07

and it would it however it

1:19:09

works in your system maybe the

1:19:11

maybe none of the women in

1:19:13

ministry maybe none of the people

1:19:15

and maybe none of the women

1:19:17

in those type of churches actually

1:19:19

want to be in ministry maybe

1:19:22

they just want to come home

1:19:24

have babies and teach Sunday school

1:19:26

to their children and be safe

1:19:28

through childbirth right but I don't

1:19:30

know I don't know what you're

1:19:32

going to tell me about Priscillasire

1:19:36

Right. What are you going to

1:19:38

tell me about Beth Moore? What

1:19:40

are you going to tell me

1:19:42

about Katie Creel? What are you

1:19:44

going to tell me about Katie

1:19:46

Cozidey? What are you going to

1:19:48

tell me about? Jackie Hill Perry.

1:19:50

What are you going to tell

1:19:53

me about Jackie Hill Perry? What

1:19:55

are you going to tell me

1:19:57

about all of these different people?

1:19:59

Now, Jackie Hill Perry is more

1:20:01

complementary. In a nutshell, and Preston

1:20:03

and Jackie would break this down

1:20:05

way better than me, but

1:20:07

in a nutshell, egalitarian

1:20:10

means that we're equal,

1:20:12

right? Well, complementarian

1:20:15

is that we, God made

1:20:17

the woman to help the

1:20:19

man, which I actually believe.

1:20:21

But the word for help

1:20:24

is the same word that is

1:20:26

used for God to help

1:20:28

Israel. It's not like my

1:20:30

man is cutting down a

1:20:32

tree with an axe and

1:20:35

I brought him a glass

1:20:37

of cool water. I helped

1:20:39

that man that day. I

1:20:41

can't even say it without

1:20:43

laughing because it sounds

1:20:45

so dumb. I do

1:20:47

not believe women are

1:20:50

supposed to be doing everything

1:20:52

a man does. in the

1:20:54

same way I don't believe

1:20:56

a man can do everything

1:20:59

a woman is supposed to

1:21:01

do. Right. There are

1:21:03

responsibilities that have been

1:21:05

assigned to our gender that

1:21:07

we can only work out

1:21:09

through the bodies he put

1:21:11

us in. So that's a

1:21:14

whole other thing. But I've

1:21:16

grown tired of the excuse

1:21:18

that pastors have about all

1:21:20

these divvian up of like a

1:21:22

single... a single female or a

1:21:24

single male can only do this.

1:21:27

And then if you get married,

1:21:29

then you can tear up and

1:21:31

do that. And it's just safer

1:21:33

because as a single woman, you

1:21:35

might have more temptations than a

1:21:38

single man. And I have a

1:21:40

friend of mine who's not married.

1:21:42

His libido is like point two.

1:21:44

He's not gonna say his name, but

1:21:47

he don't want to do nothing.

1:21:49

Right. So the wind can blow

1:21:51

hard or blow soft. And he'll

1:21:53

be like. Jesus is Lord.

1:21:55

It's a great day to

1:21:57

preach. He's some beautiful.

1:22:00

could walk up to him and like,

1:22:02

you're just so happy. He'll be like,

1:22:04

thank you. Have you received Jesus into

1:22:06

your heart and your mind and your

1:22:09

soul? He ain't gonna get with nobody.

1:22:11

He ain't thinking about getting with nobody.

1:22:13

So everybody that's single ain't single and

1:22:16

horny waiting to get married. Some people

1:22:18

aren't even checking. They don't even cross

1:22:20

their mind that much. They don't even

1:22:23

think about it. Some people are gonna

1:22:25

be single for the rest of their

1:22:27

life. So what you're gonna do with.

1:22:30

half of the population in your church

1:22:32

wait for them to get married before

1:22:34

they can be activated in ministry so

1:22:37

so so here's here's where my angst

1:22:39

comes in this from our frustration comes

1:22:41

in is we make all these different

1:22:44

rules right mhm and these married lead

1:22:46

pastors is having sex with the admin

1:22:48

after all after all these lines of

1:22:51

demarcation After all of

1:22:53

this, I can't be in the

1:22:55

room with you, and I won't

1:22:58

do that, and I won't do

1:23:00

that. And you still find a

1:23:02

way to get a side check?

1:23:05

You still getting a blow job

1:23:07

on Thursdays? After all this? After

1:23:09

all this? I won't be in

1:23:12

the room with you, and I

1:23:14

won't. But then how's she get

1:23:16

down there? I don't know, maybe

1:23:19

your door got that little doggy

1:23:21

hole in it. And maybe she

1:23:23

crawled through that little doggy hole

1:23:26

with a little flap, you know,

1:23:28

the door for the pest to

1:23:30

come in. Yes. Maybe she came

1:23:33

through there. I don't know. I'm

1:23:35

just trying to figure it out.

1:23:38

It's hypocritical to me. Yeah. And

1:23:40

so I'm happy for the Billy

1:23:42

Graham rule. Like Billy Graham rule.

1:23:45

I don't travel without somebody. Okay.

1:23:47

That's great. Right. pastors and elders

1:23:49

to travel with other people, but

1:23:52

they still have separate rooms. They

1:23:54

don't sleep in the same room.

1:23:56

So they travel together, but they

1:23:59

have separate rooms and guess what?

1:24:01

They call the... So I don't

1:24:03

like the hypocrisy of it. If

1:24:06

that's what you're really doing and

1:24:08

that's really your structure. I don't

1:24:10

hurt it all. Ain't nothing new

1:24:13

under the sun. I don't hurt

1:24:15

it. A, L, I believe you.

1:24:18

I believe. I've heard it all.

1:24:20

Yeah. So I don't like the

1:24:22

hypocrisy of it. If that's what

1:24:25

you're really doing and that's really

1:24:27

your structure, I'm not, I'm not

1:24:29

railing against nobody's structure. All I'm

1:24:32

saying is, let's give an account.

1:24:34

for all of y'all that got

1:24:36

this structure in place and you

1:24:39

still can't stop people from having

1:24:41

sex in your church at the

1:24:43

leadership level in your C suite

1:24:46

amongst your executives y'all out here

1:24:48

while in still. Blow the whole

1:24:50

thing up and stop punishing single

1:24:53

women as a rebel. Just admit

1:24:55

you are horny and you cannot

1:24:58

control yourself in front of women.

1:25:00

Say that. Everything can't be your

1:25:02

fault. So... What do we do?

1:25:05

What do we do? Oh. Is

1:25:07

that the answer to my question?

1:25:09

Oh. I barely got the question.

1:25:12

Oh. I knew it was coming.

1:25:14

Leave. Because you ain't gonna change

1:25:16

it. That's a fact. So you

1:25:19

gonna stand and be frustrated or

1:25:21

you gonna leave? Because you got

1:25:23

that choice. Now if God's called

1:25:26

you there. And that's the structure

1:25:28

that's there and he genuinely he's

1:25:30

doing something through you in that

1:25:33

then stop complaining about it. But

1:25:35

if it's really that much of

1:25:38

a frustration you have a choice.

1:25:40

You can bounce. Sometimes seasons change

1:25:42

and people just really be thinking

1:25:45

that they still got to stay

1:25:47

there. There once arose a pharaoh

1:25:49

that knew not the God of

1:25:52

Joseph. And

1:25:56

sometimes times can change, leaders can

1:25:59

change. Leadership can change, your boss

1:26:01

can change, your direct supervisor can

1:26:03

change, your direct report. And then

1:26:06

it's just like, this ain't it

1:26:08

no mo. Yeah. But yeah, you

1:26:10

don't have to be no place

1:26:13

that you're gonna be devalued. That's

1:26:15

332 million people in this country

1:26:18

alone. There's a place you can

1:26:20

thrive. You can get, you can

1:26:22

be somewhere. It ain't gotta be

1:26:25

there. You

1:26:35

asked the question. Just remember,

1:26:37

you wouldn't ask that question.

1:26:39

You're right. You're right. You're

1:26:41

very right. Okay. Uncle Tim.

1:26:43

Because we've been here for

1:26:45

a while. I feel like

1:26:47

I can call you. You

1:26:49

sure can't. Absolutely. Can you,

1:26:51

can you, for people that

1:26:53

are watching my podcast and

1:26:56

maybe don't have context to

1:26:58

the basement and the, the

1:27:00

basement yeah can you tell

1:27:02

us give us your vision

1:27:04

that you had years ago

1:27:06

yeah when I was 30

1:27:08

yeah so I had a

1:27:10

vision when I was 30

1:27:12

years old a vision isn't

1:27:14

like really deep a vision

1:27:17

is just a dream that

1:27:19

you have when you're awake

1:27:21

that's a vision so I

1:27:23

had this vision and there's

1:27:25

I'm walking down the street

1:27:27

and I'm walking in the

1:27:29

direction of a building that's

1:27:31

a hundred stories tall and

1:27:34

The closer I get to the

1:27:37

building, I can actually hear people

1:27:39

on the top floor, on the

1:27:41

100th floor, I can hear people

1:27:44

talking and music billowing from the

1:27:46

100th floor, and this is only

1:27:48

something that can happen in a

1:27:50

vision, right? Because there's no way

1:27:53

at that distance I should be

1:27:55

able to hear, but I hear

1:27:57

it. And it draws my curiosity.

1:28:00

So I walk into the building,

1:28:02

it's a sterile building. white. When

1:28:04

I walk in there's no art

1:28:07

on the walls, nothing, no wayfinding,

1:28:09

but I see an elevator and

1:28:11

I press the button and I

1:28:14

step in the elevator and I

1:28:16

turn around and look at the

1:28:18

buttons only see two buttons. There's

1:28:21

an L for the lobby which

1:28:23

is where I entered from and

1:28:25

above the L there is 100.

1:28:27

There is no one through 99.

1:28:30

So I press 100 and I

1:28:32

start going up. And obviously when

1:28:34

you're going up that high, your

1:28:37

ears are popping and, you know,

1:28:39

you're waiting to be up at

1:28:41

the top. The higher I go

1:28:44

up, Ivory, the more self-conscious I

1:28:46

become. I start checking my pants,

1:28:48

my shirt, I'm like, do I

1:28:51

have any stains? I'm really like,

1:28:53

self-conscious, for real. I'm

1:28:55

like, I don't know if

1:28:57

I'm supposed to be up

1:28:59

here. As we approach the

1:29:01

top before the door is

1:29:03

even open, I'm intrinsically aware

1:29:05

that everyone on this floor

1:29:07

is an influential person in

1:29:09

the body of Christ. Nameless

1:29:11

and faceless. So it's not

1:29:13

like I get up there

1:29:15

and I'm like, there's Smith

1:29:17

Wigglesworth. There's A. A. A.

1:29:19

Allen. There's Catherine Coleman. Bless

1:29:21

God. There's William Seymour. I

1:29:24

just know intrinsically these are

1:29:26

influential people in the body

1:29:28

of Christ. Get to the

1:29:31

hunger floor. The doors part

1:29:33

and there's just long hallway

1:29:35

and then these three steps

1:29:37

that kind of open up

1:29:40

to like this sprawling like

1:29:42

beautiful living room area and

1:29:44

then off to like the

1:29:46

right. and forward is out

1:29:49

to the balcony where a

1:29:51

lot more people were and

1:29:53

that's where I think the

1:29:56

music and the the voices

1:29:58

I heard was coming. from.

1:30:00

So I step off the

1:30:02

elevator and what I cannot

1:30:04

see from the elevator that

1:30:07

I immediately see once I

1:30:09

step off to the size

1:30:11

of me is that to

1:30:13

my left there is

1:30:15

a line of bikini-clad

1:30:18

women. Gorgeous women. On

1:30:20

my left side lined

1:30:22

up all the way

1:30:24

down the hallway holding

1:30:26

these silver chargers like

1:30:28

these plates. And on

1:30:30

these silver charging plates,

1:30:32

every sin vice and

1:30:35

wait you could ever imagine

1:30:37

is on here. To my

1:30:39

right, lined all the way

1:30:41

down, the buffest dudes

1:30:44

you've ever seen, 2%

1:30:46

body fat, speedo wearing.

1:30:49

Six, 12 pack. I

1:30:51

don't even know if you

1:30:53

can get abs up in

1:30:55

your sternum. They had a

1:30:57

12 pack. and biceps and

1:31:00

triceps and they're holding their

1:31:02

little silver platter charges and

1:31:05

and with every sin vice

1:31:07

and weight on it. So

1:31:10

I'm looking at both sides

1:31:12

and I'm like, oh to be able

1:31:14

to get down to where these

1:31:17

people are, this must be my

1:31:19

test. Like I can't pick up

1:31:21

nothing from these chargers. So I'm

1:31:23

like, cool. So I put my

1:31:26

head down. and look at

1:31:28

my shoes and I just walk straight.

1:31:30

And I get to the end of

1:31:32

the hallway and I take these three

1:31:35

steps down and I'm looking

1:31:37

around. Everybody's mingling with each

1:31:39

other but no one looks

1:31:41

up at me. It's like, you know,

1:31:43

when you walk into a room,

1:31:45

you expect somebody to acknowledge

1:31:48

you. Like if you're already

1:31:50

in the room and the

1:31:52

door open, you might just

1:31:54

glance like, you know, nobody looked up.

1:31:56

So I'm standing there for a few minutes,

1:31:58

I'm kind of looking around. Nobody

1:32:01

checking for me. And about

1:32:03

eight feet away from me,

1:32:05

these two guys are chopping

1:32:07

it up with each other.

1:32:09

And I'm looking, and I

1:32:11

kind of look in their

1:32:13

hands, and they're both holding

1:32:15

something from the charger. And

1:32:17

as soon as I noticed

1:32:19

that, one of the men,

1:32:21

like, snapped away from the

1:32:23

conversation he was having and

1:32:25

looked at me. And then

1:32:27

he went like this. Like

1:32:29

looked me up and down

1:32:31

like And and he looked

1:32:33

at my hands like he

1:32:35

didn't carry him nothing He

1:32:37

hold him nothing and went

1:32:39

right back to his conversation.

1:32:42

It's the only interaction I

1:32:44

had the whole time So

1:32:46

after a few more minutes.

1:32:48

I'm like, I don't guess

1:32:50

I'm supposed to be up

1:32:52

here So I turn around

1:32:54

I walk back up to

1:32:56

three steps and now the

1:32:58

bikini-clad women are on my

1:33:00

right in the Men are

1:33:02

on my left and I

1:33:04

ain't got no issue but

1:33:06

these dudes like that ain't

1:33:08

my issue but these women.

1:33:10

Lord have mercy. I was

1:33:12

like how all y'all look

1:33:14

like this right now? So

1:33:16

I put my head back

1:33:18

down and I'll get right

1:33:20

back to the elevator. And

1:33:23

I'm about to press L

1:33:25

to go back to the

1:33:27

lobby and I see a

1:33:29

button underneath the L going

1:33:31

down. that I don't see

1:33:33

going up and it's faint

1:33:35

but it's a B. So

1:33:37

I press B and when

1:33:39

I press B I go

1:33:41

down a hundred and one

1:33:43

stories and the elevator rest

1:33:45

at the bottom and before

1:33:47

the doors even open I

1:33:49

can hear people laughing and

1:33:51

I can hear just it

1:33:53

was a different type of

1:33:55

joy. up there on the

1:33:57

hundred floor, naming some faceless,

1:33:59

but like very... influential like

1:34:01

like but like just the

1:34:04

personalities no friends family spouses

1:34:06

children just these massive personalities

1:34:08

okay so then the doors

1:34:10

open when I get down

1:34:12

to be which I now

1:34:14

know as a basement but

1:34:16

I didn't know there the

1:34:18

doors open and as soon

1:34:20

as the doors open everybody

1:34:22

is packed in there's men

1:34:24

and married people and single

1:34:26

people and family, friends, it

1:34:28

was just packed. They turn

1:34:30

around, the doors open like

1:34:32

this, they turn around. Yeah!

1:34:34

They start cheering to the

1:34:36

top of the lung. They

1:34:38

yank me off of the

1:34:40

elevator. They pat me on

1:34:43