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0:43

Hello, I'm Ari Melber and you are watching

0:46

The Beat with Ari Melber and a special edition

0:48

at that. The trials of Donald

0:50

Trump as we approach a very

0:53

heavy period here in the weeks ahead. This hour

0:55

we're going to break down the legal cases, the four

0:57

looming trials and also look at how an

0:59

ally has already been convicted in a

1:01

trial that relates to January 6th.

1:03

It's someone who I just spoke with and we have

1:06

some special insights on that as well as how

1:08

other Trump officials

1:09

are now paying the price dearly in

1:12

finances and maybe in their liberty for what

1:14

they view as an unending loyalty

1:16

to Donald Trump. So we've got a lot for you

1:18

right now, but we begin with a closer look at this

1:20

pretty brazen defense strategy that we're seeing in the Rico

1:23

case in Georgia. Defendants arguing

1:25

that they shouldn't have to face trial

1:28

in the court where they were charged

1:30

because they're arguing that they should get a kind of treatment

1:32

based on the fact that they worked in the federal government.

1:35

Now, you've probably heard a little bit about this. Mark Meadows

1:37

lost a version of this argument, but

1:40

even though he lost and is appealing,

1:43

everyone gets their own case

1:46

here. So other people are going to

1:48

be able to make the same argument based on their situation

1:50

and Meadows himself says it's, quote, impossible

1:52

to draw a distinction between a chief of staff engaging

1:55

in official and political activity.

1:59

Going on to say that...

1:59

without that local activity being part of

2:02

his job it would be

2:04

to function you

2:06

don't need to be a lawyer to understand what's going on

2:08

there mister meadows having lost that case already

2:10

lost that argument and try to get overturned

2:13

on appeal is basically saying that his

2:15

alleged co-activity was just political

2:17

activity was just politics that would

2:19

be news to the vast majority of people

2:22

who've ever served in any white house in both parties

2:24

by the way including most use of staff who

2:26

would also and many of them say under

2:28

oath that they never did any who

2:31

plotting whatsoever let alone

2:33

trying to strong arm state elections

2:35

officials to overturn or steal votes but

2:37

he has every right to make that appeal in

2:40

the same lane and i'm telling you about jeffrey

2:42

clark who was trump sort of inside guide

2:44

the doj is arguing that he

2:46

should also get out of the georgia court system and

2:48

be tried in federal court

2:51

because whatever he did was quote ratified

2:53

by the president his job he says

2:56

included election-related issues a clerk

2:58

lawyer has argued that he was doing what trump directed

3:01

the president put it in his

3:03

lane all that is

3:05

not only false but in a way it's a kind of

3:07

admission because the oj lawyers

3:10

are not allowed to a just do

3:12

the president's bidding in fact there are strict rules

3:14

and walls for that and be if

3:16

the president gives you an unlawful

3:18

order well you're not supposed to follow it in

3:21

any part of the government fact you may recall during

3:23

those ten days in january twenty one before

3:25

the transition there were people in the pentagon

3:28

talking to speaker then speaker pelosi and others

3:31

about the fact that unlawful orders

3:33

given to the pentagon wouldn't be followed be

3:36

they on the nineteenth of the morning of the twentieth

3:38

or those kind of doomsday almost movie scenarios

3:41

let me tell you something if you work at the justice department

3:44

you better know professionally how to figure

3:46

out what an unlawful order is and not follow

3:48

it that's why his

3:50

argument is lacking whether those were unlawful

3:53

or criminal orders of course still has to be litigated

3:55

you got prosecutors both in d c in georgia

3:57

saying they were and you have all

3:59

these defendants who are presumed innocent legally saying

4:02

whatever they did was not actually criminal. Then,

4:05

let me tell you, there's three other Georgia RICO defendants,

4:07

part of the fraudulent electors plot, and they're arguing

4:10

that not only were they acting at federal officers,

4:13

but they are, they claim, now quote,

4:15

immune from state level prosecution

4:17

at all. So they want a judge to

4:20

intervene. Again, I will

4:22

say this in fairness, and it's important to understand how the

4:24

system works. There are many different ways

4:26

that defendants can have things double checked,

4:29

put on appeal for their rights,

4:31

procedural, substantive rights. But

4:34

these are not very strong arguments, so they have every

4:36

right to make the case. Judges will hear it, but

4:39

a lot of experts do not think the arguments we're

4:41

seeing from these various RICO defendants are going to get them

4:43

off the hook. Then there's Donald

4:45

Trump, speaking out in ways that

4:47

his lawyers certainly don't want. Indeed,

4:50

he kind of seemed to get very

4:52

close to a few good men territory

4:54

where you just blurted. He wasn't on the

4:56

stand, mind you, but under a fair or direct question,

4:59

you kind of blurted all out. We

5:01

all remember when under questioning

5:04

Jack Nicholson's character, basically

5:06

admits the whole case that he illegally

5:08

ordered the code red. Did

5:11

you

5:12

order the code red? I did the job.

5:14

Did you order the code red? You're goddamn right I did. You

5:21

know who I listened to myself? I saw what

5:23

happened. You were listening to your instincts. My

5:26

instincts are a big part of it. Please, the court,

5:28

I suggest the members be dismissed so

5:30

that we can move to an immediate Article 39A session. The

5:34

witness has rights.

5:35

Were you calling the shots though, Mr. President, ultimately?

5:38

As to whether or not I believed it was rigged

5:40

or sure. I'm being charged with a crime. Is

5:44

that what this is? Is that what this is? I'm being

5:46

charged with a crime.

5:49

Yes, you are. That is what that is. Donald

5:51

Trump has now been charged with many crimes, 91 counts

5:54

in all, and taking it

5:56

on and saying basically, of course,

5:58

this was coming from the top. coming from him is

6:00

not a good legal strategy maybe he had other

6:03

reasons political personal emotional

6:05

why he needs to feel that he was in charge of everything

6:08

but his lawyers want to keep open the defense

6:10

both in georgia and d.c. that maybe

6:12

people acted out or went beyond what he

6:14

intended or that he wanted to double-check

6:16

the results but certainly not break the law he didn't want

6:18

to basically push past it being rigged

6:22

after it was legally completely

6:24

finished and ratified and certified by electoral

6:26

college well he is at least complicating

6:28

of not taking off the table those arguments as

6:31

for how he's feeling and what he fears well

6:33

this is what trump claims

6:36

when you go to bed at night do

6:38

you worry about going to jail no

6:41

I don't really

6:43

I don't even think about it

6:46

Trump says he doesn't even think about it while

6:48

others around him are telling Rolling

6:51

Stone that basically he's

6:53

been asking very specific questions what a prison

6:55

sentence looks like if the authorities would make him

6:57

wear a jumpsuit would he be sent to a club

6:59

fed style prison and somehow that

7:01

he views that as a potentially comfortable

7:04

option or what he might be more afraid of a quote

7:06

bad prison three sources

7:09

told Rolling Stone that account NBC

7:11

News has not confirmed it now

7:13

when you take it all together and we're going to do some of this

7:15

tonight we have our experts coming up including Joyce

7:17

Vance Michael Beschloss and a really

7:20

interesting very experienced federal prosecutor

7:22

who was asked to represent Trump and decline

7:24

so that's a little kind of sneaking

7:27

in a little deep tease as we call it for everything

7:29

we're gonna do tonight we've got a lot of people here but

7:31

when we take it all together as we approach what will

7:33

be these first ever historic

7:36

coup trials beginning next month in Georgia

7:39

it's all related and some of it has become clear

7:41

I want to show you something that we have been building and updating

7:44

over time with real-time legal

7:46

reporting the eight plots to overturn

7:48

this election and you can see now something

7:50

that we didn't have even just a few months

7:53

back which ones have been indicted

7:55

I've told you before lawsuits

7:57

even very annoying extreme ones even

7:59

ones that seem to rest on a faulty premise

8:01

lawsuits are legal in america you

8:04

might get fined if you take it too far but you will

8:06

not go to prison for filing a lawsuit

8:09

that is that it should be when you start

8:11

going down the list here on electors on the state's

8:13

plot which of course georgia's in the middle of on

8:15

the pence plot which is now evidence in the georgia

8:17

case do j interference and of course the last arrow

8:20

there on sabotaging entire january

8:22

six certification either

8:24

all the non-violent part of the separate from the sedition

8:27

and these are all now indicted added

8:29

a big development so you have

8:32

four looming cases as i mentioned ninety one

8:34

counts donald trump with so much to

8:36

worry about so we begin tonight

8:39

with these arrows how they've now become

8:42

indicted arrows with former prosecutor joyce

8:44

vance she is here we're gonna get into

8:46

it and she's standing by when we return in just

8:49

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10:01

We're back with Joyce Vance, former federal

10:03

prosecutor. Joyce, welcome back. We've been

10:05

going through the big picture here

10:07

and I mentioned those arrows and things that

10:10

it all has moved quite fast. For a long time people were saying,

10:12

is any of this going to get charged? Now much of it

10:14

has been charged. What do you

10:16

see as important in what will

10:18

be the first coup cases here starting next month?

10:23

Right. So, you know, Ari, I

10:25

think in some ways it's become difficult

10:28

to separate the cases. Their

10:30

gravity

10:31

is amplified because

10:33

they have all been brought together

10:35

and because Trump faces culpability

10:37

on multiple fronts. But I

10:40

think the most telling thing that we've

10:42

seen so far is the public not knowing

10:44

entirely what DOJ has in its hands

10:47

is the detail and the meticulousness

10:50

with which they have gathered evidence, whether

10:53

that's looking at the different states where there

10:55

were fake electors plots, whether

10:57

that's meticulously mapping out Trump's

11:00

conversations

11:01

with both charged and uncharged co-conspirators.

11:04

I'm very impressed by the evidence that all

11:06

levels of prosecutors have mustered

11:08

here.

11:09

We'll leave these arrows up. You and

11:11

I have discussed this and it's funny. When

11:13

I told, it just says a matter of journalism, when I

11:15

told viewers, I said, we'll update this if

11:19

events warrant. As you know, we

11:21

do a lot more reporting, Joyce, about

11:23

the past and the future. One of the limitations

11:26

we have is humble humans.

11:29

And so we updated that this is not only indicted,

11:31

but if you look at the bottom of this chart where you get out

11:33

to sabotage Jan 6 and some of these plots, this

11:36

chart takes them up to the January. Obviously, that's

11:38

how they occurred. Walk us through why

11:40

the DA in Georgia also made a point

11:42

of saying that with regard to some, not all

11:45

defendants,

11:47

the acts and the intent

11:50

occurred even long after that

11:53

January period.

11:55

Right. Prosecutors always love a good

11:57

coverup and Fonny Willis really.

11:59

has this ongoing course

12:02

of conduct that continues. And

12:04

of course, one of the things that we know is that

12:06

Trump has continued to perpetuate the

12:08

big lie. He even reached out

12:10

to people like Alabama Congressman

12:13

Mo Brooks, long after Joe Biden was

12:15

in office, asked Brooks

12:17

to continue to see what he could do

12:19

to change the outcome of the election.

12:22

This is important evidence for prosecutors

12:25

because it goes to Trump's knowledge, to

12:27

his motive to his intent. And

12:30

of course, we have talked endlessly about

12:32

the fact that it's important to prove Trump's

12:34

state of mind. That is always

12:37

a challenge for prosecutors. But when you

12:39

have someone who in the face of competent

12:41

evidence and court decisions and his

12:44

own experts telling him the election

12:46

was fair, the outcome was not tainted

12:48

by fraud, and he still added

12:50

a year down the road after using fake

12:53

claims of fraud, to fraud

12:56

people who are donating money to him, then the

12:59

prosecutor's case becomes very strong.

13:02

Interesting. And again, we're following this

13:04

very closely. When those cases reached

13:06

the jury, as you say, that could be very, not

13:09

only strong evidence, but it could

13:11

actually pre-butt or rebut what

13:14

a lawyer might say, which is, hey, all's

13:17

fair in love before, you know, this

13:19

date or that certification

13:21

or it was contingent. We've heard some of those arguments.

13:24

I don't think they're so strong, they have the right to make them. But

13:26

boy, when you've got President-elect Biden

13:29

becomes President Biden, and days

13:31

later, people are still talking about committing government

13:34

related fraud lying in

13:36

those venues, etc. It looks

13:38

worse. It looks like they very knowingly are trying to overthrow

13:41

the government. I wanted to ask you as well about Jack

13:43

Smith and his team,

13:45

they keep a pretty, pretty quiet

13:47

operation over there. So they mostly speak through charges

13:50

and court hearings. But you can't keep

13:52

everything 100% secret. Here's the headline that Jack

13:54

Smith has added a prosecutor to his team

13:56

now they've obviously been working Smith

13:59

adding a veteran crimes prosecutor who was his

14:01

deputy at the Hague to his team

14:03

as he prepares to go on trial. Trump

14:06

in Washington, the precise role they mentioned

14:08

at this point from reporting is unclear. I'll

14:10

tell MSNBC viewers here,

14:12

Joyce, that role, when

14:15

your deputy to the special counsel

14:17

is kind of like what Andrew Weissman

14:19

was to Bob Mueller. And as important as

14:21

Mueller was because he called the shots in

14:24

the trials of for Manafort and others,

14:27

it was Weissman arguing the case

14:29

and really clashing. And so this new

14:31

individual could be, again, to just kind

14:33

of make that rough comparison, a Weissman type figure.

14:36

I'm curious what you make of at least this little

14:39

tidbit and whether we

14:41

should expect anything about who will actually try

14:44

Donald Trump as a defendant. In theory, there's nothing

14:47

preventing the special counsel from doing it himself, although often

14:50

it is the deputies who do the daily trial

14:52

advocacy.

14:54

You know, I think that that's right. And I think in

14:56

these cases that we will see the lawyers

14:59

who have already been in court playing significant

15:01

roles in trial. But the addition

15:04

to Alex Whiting to Jack Smith's team

15:06

is a smart move. It's someone that he's used

15:08

to working with and relying on. He

15:11

has deep experience as a prosecutor.

15:13

He was in the Justice Department's Civil

15:15

Rights Division

15:16

doing criminal work.

15:17

This is someone who knows what's going on

15:20

in these sorts of cases

15:21

and will be a solid addition.

15:23

Interesting. Yeah. And you're reminding

15:25

folks of some of the other cases he's tried here at home,

15:27

not just, of course, the war crimes context.

15:30

We haven't hit much of the moral law, the logo documents

15:33

case at all tonight. I did want to turn to

15:35

the development that there is reporting,

15:38

call it, you know, a witness that Trump basically

15:41

was telling an aide

15:44

to deny knowing the classified

15:46

documents were there saying you don't know anything

15:48

about the boxes. Trump's

15:50

former lawyer Ty Cobb likened it to real mafia

15:53

boss behavior.

15:57

Trump, you know, really for

15:59

the first time in

15:59

In terms of the way this evidence is rolled

16:02

out,

16:03

speaking

16:04

in the terms of a mob

16:06

boss, giving

16:09

a direct order to

16:11

somebody that he probably should have no

16:13

reason to believe

16:15

would lie for

16:17

him,

16:17

but expecting her to do so. It

16:21

really is Trump

16:23

directly ordering

16:25

obstruction.

16:29

A former lawyer for Trump saying he's ordering

16:31

obstruction, that's his analysis, but also

16:33

he knows his way around the client. Your

16:36

view, Joyce? Right.

16:38

You know, I think Ty Cobb certainly knows

16:40

what he's talking about in terms of Trump mentality

16:43

and just reporting about Trump's

16:45

former aide and the way he instructed

16:48

her to obstruct justice is

16:50

very troubling. You know, this is a powerful

16:53

image for the jury because this is the woman

16:55

who says that Trump treated classified

16:57

documents like scratch paper, writing

17:00

to do lists for her on the back of classified

17:03

documents. And here we have Trump telling

17:05

her, look, I mean, you know, I'm sure that

17:07

they will have a benign construction for

17:09

what he allegedly said to her like

17:11

they do for everything else. But he's telling

17:14

her lie to investigators.

17:16

Tell them that you know nothing. And that

17:18

in Ty Cobb's words is precisely the

17:20

kind of behavior that you see from mob bosses.

17:24

Yeah. And it goes to that sort

17:26

of coaching style, a kind of a sketchy

17:28

or dirty style of pressure. And

17:31

it also, Joyce, and just echoing what

17:33

you said, it's it's also a real

17:35

giveaway that you knew at the time

17:38

you were doing something wrong, which is very different than

17:40

saying, oh, I'm a government employee. I thought

17:42

I genuinely could hold this. And someone says, no, no,

17:44

you grabbed the wrong thing. And the DOJ

17:46

doesn't usually throw the book at people

17:48

in that situation, even if they might have been careless

17:51

at work. It's very different when someone's

17:53

instead of going, oh, I got the wrong name and give back says, hey, you

17:55

never saw this and this didn't happen. And now

17:58

I'm going to keep holding it. So it's.

17:59

pretty damning in that sense. Joyce, thank

18:02

you for hanging with us tonight.

18:04

Thanks Ari.

18:06

Absolutely, appreciate it. Coming

18:08

up we turn to Giuliani's downfall, the price

18:10

of loyalty to Trump, and something special

18:13

as we take this all in and take a breath at

18:15

the end of a long week. Michael Beschloss joins

18:17

us on where these coup trials

18:19

fit into what is both unprecedented and what

18:21

we can learn from history. I'm looking forward

18:24

to, believe it or not, slowing down for a minute,

18:26

kicking back and having our NBC historian

18:28

on here. Coming up next, my

18:30

breakdown of something that we have been directly dealing

18:33

with, the first conviction of a

18:35

Trump White House aide who was serving

18:37

during the coup efforts, Peter Navarro and

18:39

what lies ahead. That's next.

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19:51

You ever have a situation in your life where it

19:53

feels like nothing's happening? So you get used

19:55

to kind of assuming nothing's happening and then all of a sudden

19:57

a bunch of stuff starts happening? That's

20:00

kind of how covering the

20:02

fallout from Donald Trump's obvious

20:05

kind of publicly admitted coup efforts

20:07

has been. It was a long time of nothing and

20:09

then lately there's been a lot. So much now that people

20:12

are kind of saying, oh, they're used to there being so

20:15

much happening or gosh, okay,

20:17

this is the new norm. Charges

20:19

and bookings all the time. So right now

20:21

I just want to go through some of the more important details

20:23

as we sift this together. In Georgia,

20:25

you have two Trump officials indicted

20:28

for the RICO conspiracy, that's Meadows and

20:30

Clark. Now remember, Clark is

20:32

also the unindicted co-conspirator number

20:34

four in the related but

20:36

separate jurisdictional case brought

20:38

by Jack Smith in

20:40

Washington, indicted for, I should

20:43

say not indicted, but identified

20:46

for using the DOJ to open a sham election

20:49

crime investigation and influence state

20:51

legislators with knowingly false

20:54

claims of election fraud. Now

20:56

I emphasize there that he is unindicted

20:59

because you see what's written out

21:01

and you see what's happening in Georgia. He is someone who

21:03

was in the Trump administration at a high level,

21:06

had one-on-one and group meetings with Trump

21:08

in those final days, but he has not

21:10

been indicted federally,

21:13

let alone convicted.

21:14

Which brings us

21:16

to what I want to show you tonight. Only one Trump

21:18

official has actually been convicted

21:20

who was serving during these coup

21:23

efforts, and that is the White House veteran Peter

21:25

Navarro, who defined the January

21:27

6th probe.

21:29

The penalty

21:30

carries $100,000 fine and up to

21:32

a year in prison. This whole saga

21:34

began when he refused to comply with

21:37

a subpoena from the January 6th committee

21:39

which only reached him

21:42

after he sort of got on their radar

21:44

after discussing his efforts to overthrow

21:46

the election right here

21:48

on MSNBC.

21:59

I'm the January 6th guy.

22:02

The remedy was for Vice

22:04

President Pence's quarterback in

22:06

the Green Bay suite to remand those

22:09

votes back to the six battleground states.

22:11

He said the

22:13

quiet part out loud,

22:15

do you realize you are describing

22:17

a coup?

22:19

No. Members of the committee subpoenaed

22:21

Peter Navarro Wednesday. He

22:24

has so much knowledge to share with a journalist,

22:26

but he refuses to share that knowledge in

22:29

response to a lawful subpoena.

22:30

It's not my privilege to wave, Ari. I'll

22:33

stand tall on this. Come on, let me respond

22:35

to you. Executive privilege does exist.

22:38

Your problem, sir, is

22:40

it doesn't exist for you. They

22:42

put me in handcuffs. They bring

22:44

me here. They put me in leg irons.

22:47

They stick me in a cell. Peter Navarro

22:50

has now been found guilty on

22:52

two counts of criminal contempt of Congress.

22:55

Alter egos of the president cannot be compelled,

22:58

cannot be compelled to testify for Congress.

23:02

That brings us all the way up to here. September 2023,

23:05

Navarro convicted. He

23:07

is appealing the case, although

23:10

it was pretty open and shut, according to

23:13

the prosecutors, the judge who limited what

23:16

he could say based on it having to be true

23:18

and have evidence and the jury moved quickly. Now,

23:22

Mr. Navarro came back for

23:24

an interview. This was his first time back on

23:26

MSNBC since all this started, a post-conviction

23:29

interview. I want to share a little bit of what

23:31

we learned from him as we discussed his

23:33

case.

23:35

You have now been convicted.

23:38

Have you learned anything? Would you do anything

23:40

differently? For better or for worse,

23:43

I'm going to be a figure

23:45

in history in a landmark Supreme Court case

23:48

since the beginning. That sounds a bit like a- That goes back to your

23:50

question. I'd like a note. Do you now see that it can

23:52

be a crime

23:53

to try to overturn lawful

23:55

final votes in this country? Let me

23:58

just stay with my case.

23:59

was charged with failing

24:02

to comply with a congressional subpoena.

24:04

If I went in and selectively

24:07

invoked the fifth or privilege,

24:10

I would have forfeited my right to

24:13

absolute testimony, immunity. But over

24:15

a thousand witnesses did cooperate,

24:17

Peter. Thirty-four took

24:19

the fifth, something you just alluded to. There are

24:22

other ways. None of those people are

24:24

in the trouble that you're in. They have Trump. All

24:26

he had to do was write it. He tweets a lot. He posted

24:29

a lot. He never wrote, I give Navarro

24:31

privilege. Slow down. Slow

24:34

down. How much did he help pay

24:36

for your legal fees? Donald

24:38

Trump. About $300,000.

24:39

My legal fees are well in X-axis

24:44

and six. Do you think Trump can beat this case

24:46

in Washington against Jack Smith?

24:49

No, I don't. That's

24:53

some of what Mr. Navarro said, the final

24:55

point there being

24:57

he, having gone to the same courtroom and

24:59

a similar federal trial, does not think his

25:01

old boss, Donald Trump, will

25:04

be acquitted. He thinks Donald Trump will be convicted.

25:07

Donald Trump's trial, scheduled for March in

25:09

that same Washington courthouse. That's

25:11

our update on what we learn there. Still to come, a Giuliani

25:13

insider speaking out and, as

25:15

promised, our NBC historian Michael Beshlaw.

25:18

As we take a step back, take it all in

25:20

and learn from history. That's coming up.

25:27

Let

25:30

me start this special discussion, which I hope you'll

25:33

enjoy with an admission. Sometimes

25:35

here we're dealing with the little picture,

25:38

not the big picture, the daily

25:40

grind, the latest headline, and not

25:43

sort of the larger history that we're living through.

25:45

And we know that. And sometimes we

25:47

find ways to do big special reports

25:49

or pull back a little bit. But even then, day

25:51

by day, it's a lot of those headlines.

25:54

They say news can be the first draft of history

25:56

and it's interesting to live together. But right

25:58

now we actually want to take a deliberate step. step back

26:00

for a bird's eye broader look at

26:03

these developments so we understand what's happening

26:05

to our country with these looming trials no

26:07

matter how they're resolved and what

26:09

it means for history in America

26:11

and joining us for that is NBC presidential

26:14

historian Michael Beschloss.

26:17

Michael, you know why we thought of you, how are you?

26:20

Oh, very well, how are you?

26:22

I'm good. So

26:23

we're going to slow down

26:25

here. We're going to kind

26:26

of imagine that we're with you at one

26:28

of your, I know you only write with a quill pen

26:31

and an old antique oak. A

26:34

chisel on a rock car. And

26:37

get in that mood and to set it up, I'll just

26:40

give us a thought that I think you can analyze

26:44

for us here. We have the four indictments that

26:46

Trump is facing and a lot of co-defendants. We

26:48

had the mug shot that echoed not only across

26:50

our country but around the world and

26:53

we have all of these developments in

26:55

Georgia and the federal case. Trump

26:58

musing on where it could all lead.

27:00

I

27:01

want to show how we got

27:03

here so

27:04

we can understand it as living history

27:06

including events over the last few days. Take a look.

27:09

We say around here

27:11

we are living through extraordinary

27:13

times. Mark Meadows losing his bid

27:16

to move his case to federal

27:17

court. Mark Meadows case and

27:19

Clark's case arguably are on the ropes.

27:21

They're going to say that Jeffrey Clark was acting

27:24

as a federal official. The state of Georgia has

27:26

filed a stinging response

27:28

in opposition.

27:28

The special grand jury that investigated

27:31

election interference in Georgia recommended

27:33

criminal charges against 39 people. The

27:35

special

27:36

counsel investigating former President

27:38

Trump

27:39

wants a judge to give what's essentially

27:41

a limited gag order. When you

27:43

go to bed at night,

27:44

do you worry about going to jail?

27:47

No, I don't really.

27:49

I don't even think about it. A historic,

27:52

historic moment in

27:54

American politics and in American life and for

27:57

all the worst reasons.

28:01

There we are. I'm curious what

28:04

you think we can make of the history as it

28:06

unfolds and what

28:08

in our past shows us guidance for

28:11

things that were unprecedented and

28:13

then have a precedent, like holding these government

28:15

officials who are presumed innocent accountable,

28:19

putting them on trial for coup attempts. Well,

28:22

I think one way to look at it, Ari, is

28:24

that let's travel back to the not

28:26

entirely wonderful world of the mid-1990s. And

28:30

that was a time that two things happened. Number

28:32

one, the internet was beginning to spread, so

28:34

you could have social media sites, in

28:37

this case right-wing radical sites

28:39

that spread all sorts of

28:41

information to potentially

28:43

billions of people. That had never

28:46

happened before in history. Before

28:48

then, it would have to be some guy standing on a street

28:50

corner with some crazy flyer. That

28:53

was a big difference in our country. The

28:55

other thing is that we

28:57

had the beginning of Fox News and

28:59

imitators in 1996, untethered by

29:03

fact, very eager to push

29:05

right-wing radical narratives that

29:08

didn't connect to actual evidence. So

29:10

that, I'm not blaming them entirely, but

29:13

maybe not entirely a coincidence

29:15

that in 2004, you remember

29:17

how many Americans thought

29:20

that Saddam was behind 9-11,

29:22

which he was not. In 2008,

29:26

the number of Americans who thought that Barack

29:28

Obama was a Muslim, not a Christian, and

29:32

that went up. That was possible because

29:34

of this new technology, and

29:37

particularly that cable network, and its

29:39

imitators. And so that set the stage

29:42

for a synagogue, Donald Trump,

29:44

to come in 2016, use this technology,

29:48

the cable network, websites

29:50

that would amplify his message, reaching

29:52

all sorts of people that Richard Nixon

29:55

never could have in 1974, and projecting a view

29:57

of it. of

30:00

himself that was not true, a

30:02

moderate, successful businessman.

30:05

That's when he campaigned that. So the

30:07

point I'm making is that for most of

30:09

American history, we might have had a demagogue

30:12

run for president, but that person

30:14

would have been stopped by a party structure

30:16

who would say, you know, you can't have

30:18

our nomination, or it might have been

30:20

stopped by traditional news

30:23

media saying, this is what he's saying

30:25

that is not true, and he should be barred from

30:27

the presidency as Richard Nixon was

30:29

in Watergate.

30:32

Yeah, it's really striking when you put it that

30:34

way, particularly as Fox moved more

30:36

to the right and as you diagnosed in

30:39

both tandem and sometimes in

30:41

a messy clash with its sort

30:43

of imitators in an expanding

30:45

digital environment. And here we have Rupert

30:48

Murdoch exiting

30:50

the scene as

30:53

they had to get rid of Tucker Carlson and payout 700

30:55

million over, as you say, those lies.

30:59

Then we have the larger

31:02

sense of how do you govern amidst this? That's

31:05

new. I mean, Biden is many things, but among

31:07

other things, he's the first president to

31:09

come into power after a coup effort like this.

31:12

Other presidents have dealt with many different things, including,

31:14

as you mentioned, Nixon and dirty tricks, but this

31:16

was of a different level. He has

31:19

likened the Putin authoritarianism to at

31:21

least part of what he sees as a right-wing MAGA

31:23

threat at home. We saw that here

31:25

at the stage of the U.N. this week. It also

31:27

drew some pushback, understandably, on the right. I

31:29

want to show you that. Take a look. Sure.

31:31

President Joe Biden

31:34

told a crowded Broadway theater.

31:36

Donald Trump was determined to

31:39

destroy the nation. Biden

31:41

delivered an urgent message

31:43

to world leaders. If we abandon the core

31:45

principles of the United States to appease an aggressor,

31:49

can any member

31:50

of the United States in this

31:52

body

31:53

feel confident that

31:54

they are protected?

31:56

We will defend democracy. What do you

31:57

think about the fact that the president gave a speech to

31:59

They didn't say anything about

32:02

what's happening at the border.

32:03

Biden is bowing to the climate

32:05

gods.

32:06

Our country is from the beacon on the Hill

32:09

for the rule of law. It is frankly

32:11

easy for me to get depressed. The Donald

32:14

Trump is competitive for president

32:16

of the United States.

32:19

I wanted your view again in

32:21

our theme of history here. And

32:24

I say this as fairly as possible.

32:27

On the one hand, the authoritarian

32:30

threat is real in the United States. We've

32:32

been covering it. On the other

32:34

hand, there has been a troubled history

32:37

in our past of some

32:39

politicians and presidents who seized on

32:42

those threats abroad and tried to liken

32:44

domestic opposition, etc. to

32:47

that. In other words, there are some

32:49

people who are trying to do a coup and some

32:51

of them are on trial as I've covered. I don't think anyone

32:53

thinks I'm soft or ignorant on that. On

32:55

the other hand, it is not all Republicans

32:57

or even all people who like Trump that

32:59

should be just lumped in with Putin.

33:02

So I'm curious what history teaches about,

33:04

I guess, that line that the president is trying to walk

33:06

this week,

33:07

this past week.

33:09

Well, the president does not have the voice

33:11

that presidents once did. And that's not Joe

33:13

Biden's fault. That's part of the change

33:15

that we're talking about. 1962, John

33:18

Kennedy went on TV to tell Americans

33:21

that the Soviets had slipped missiles

33:23

into Cuba and this was a danger to the world.

33:26

Ninety percent of the television audience

33:29

was able to watch that speech because there were

33:31

just about three networks, the mainstream

33:34

magazines and newspapers. All

33:36

that's out the window now. For most

33:38

of American history, if you had had a president

33:41

who's defeated for reelection, as Donald

33:43

Trump was in 2020, complaining

33:47

that the election was rigged and stolen

33:49

and that he would really he had really won

33:51

this piece of this person would have take

33:54

been taken away by some people

33:56

wanted to be an institutionalized, not

33:59

some prejudice. serious figure. But

34:01

because of those megaphones that we're talking

34:03

about, social media, irresponsible

34:06

cable channels and others, look

34:09

at the number of people in our country now

34:11

in 2023, September, who

34:13

think that Donald Trump actually did

34:16

win the 2020 election. That

34:18

was something that our founders never

34:20

imagined.

34:22

Yeah, really striking. Michael,

34:25

we like these little moments to step

34:28

back and do some history with you. So appreciate

34:30

you doing it. I hope you'll, hope you'll join

34:33

us again soon, sir.

34:34

Always my pleasure. Be well, Ari.

34:36

Yes, sir. Be well, Michael Beschloss. We appreciate

34:38

you. It's been a break, but when we come back,

34:41

we've got something that is both serious and a little bit

34:43

fun. We're going to talk about the Rico defendants,

34:45

the loyalty talk, but how it all brings us into

34:48

the classic, Johnny Brasco. That's

34:50

it.

35:22

An iconic scene from

35:24

Donnie Brasco about rats and loyalty.

35:26

And right now it is newly relevant

35:29

with Donald Trump blatantly

35:31

publicly saying that Rico defended Mark

35:33

Meadows, who was his number one aide, who was involved

35:35

in so much, and he needs to stay,

35:37

quote, loyal.

35:40

By the way, do you think your

35:42

former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, is still

35:44

loyal to you? He just pleaded not guilty in the

35:46

joint. Well, I hope he's loyal to me. I mean, I don't think they're at all. Do you worry

35:48

about him flipping? I didn't know anything wrong.

35:53

Trump then shifting from loyalty to saying what is

35:56

really the answer your lawyers want you to say, that you didn't

35:58

do anything wrong, that people should just tell the truth. truth, not

36:00

necessarily have to be politically loyal. Giuliani

36:03

like Meadows is a Georgia Rico defendant dealing with

36:05

a civil suit there and a judge found Giuliani

36:08

defamed to election workers. He's also

36:10

being criticized as a deadbeat

36:13

on that legally required payment

36:15

as well as allegedly payments to his own

36:18

lawyer who is suing Giuliani

36:20

for over a million dollars, a

36:23

pretty whopping some there in what he alleges

36:25

are now unpaid legal fees. Now

36:28

whatever Trump does, there's not actually always

36:31

mutual loyalty and that

36:33

isn't just all the way back to people like Michael Cohen who ultimately

36:36

testified against Trump, take people who are involved

36:38

in this who've been very much on his

36:40

team all the way through this

36:42

and at great personal and professional cost

36:44

like a former Trump attorney, now

36:47

a Rico co-defendant Jenna Ellis, who

36:49

is finally coming I guess to a different

36:51

view of the old boss. She

36:54

is concerned that Trump is not

36:56

helping her with the costs

36:59

and the legal fees that only exists for her

37:01

because of what she says she did for him. Now

37:04

she may change her tune.

37:06

I simply can't

37:09

support him for elected office

37:11

again because of that

37:14

frankly malignant narcissistic tendency

37:17

to simply

37:19

say that he's never done anything wrong.

37:23

She is shifting more so than Meadows

37:26

and Giuliani at this point. Now we turn to a very

37:28

special guest who we call in on

37:31

very special nights. This is the former Watergate prosecutor

37:33

John Sale, a former assistant US

37:35

attorney and he worked in the

37:37

famed Southern District of New York like David Kelly

37:40

and Giuliani and others we've had on. I should

37:42

also note he previously represented Giuliani during

37:44

the Ukraine congressional probe and no longer

37:46

represents him. He was also asked

37:49

to represent Donald Trump in the federal

37:51

case and he declined, something we've discussed before.

37:53

Welcome back, sir. Thanks, Ari.

37:56

Nice to be back.

37:59

defended Trump here when he talks about loyalty

38:03

as well as people like Ms. Ellis who

38:05

seems to be adjusting her views of him.

38:09

Well as an outsider loyalty

38:11

to Donald Trump sounds like a one-way street

38:14

but

38:15

I have to say something about the times we're living

38:17

in because Michael Beschler told us how

38:20

we got here but like

38:22

when he mentioned Richard Nixon and he said was barred

38:24

from the presidency and if he had more time

38:26

he would have explained it but he stepped down

38:29

because of bipartisan

38:32

atmosphere. It was the Republicans who

38:34

called for him to step down they couldn't support

38:37

him. We live in a totally different

38:39

times right now. I mean there was a it's

38:41

very scary there was a University of Chicago

38:43

study that showed that 12 million

38:46

people would favor violence to

38:48

support Donald Trump and somebody

38:51

is I always felt responsible as Governor

38:53

Huckabee just the other day he said

38:55

that if the legal system brings

38:57

down Donald Trump that the next election will

38:59

be decided by bullets rather than ballots.

39:02

That's very scary times we're living in and

39:05

I may be naive but I think

39:08

that what's going to save the system and our

39:11

democracy because Donald Trump by the way said

39:13

he doesn't think there's much of democracy left. I

39:15

think it's the Constitution and I'm leaving

39:17

using that interchangeably with democracy

39:20

which will save us and I think

39:22

what we have to do is make

39:24

sure he gets a fair trial and if he

39:26

gets and I think the trial that's going to go is the

39:29

one in the District of Columbia. I think

39:31

it's going to be a challenge to get a fair trial

39:34

there but I think the judge will do

39:37

everything possible to ensure that. I

39:39

don't rule out a change of venue I mean just

39:41

recently the mayor former district attorney

39:44

of Baltimore was granted a change of venue.

39:47

The Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh was

39:49

granted a change of venue so we have to see. The

39:51

law is we don't know if we can get a fair jury

39:53

until we try but a fair trial

39:55

I

39:57

think is what will show

39:59

the Constitution.

39:59

works.

40:01

And I used to be

40:03

totally against televising trials. Unfortunately,

40:06

this trial will not be televised because it's

40:08

in Washington. But I wish it were because

40:11

then the American people would see the overwhelming

40:13

evidence, but he needs to look at it. I'm

40:16

gonna jump in.

40:18

I'm gonna jump in. I do that with with all guests

40:20

from time to time. But I appreciate the substantive

40:22

points you're making. And again, I reminded folks, as

40:25

an attorney, you represented Giuliani,

40:27

you have the kind of background or standing where Trump

40:29

wanted you. So those words that you're

40:31

sharing tonight, the position you're sharing is

40:34

powerful, I think. And second,

40:37

on a lighter note, you said you may be

40:39

naive, you're not known for your naivete, not

40:42

in your career, your legal skills. So I pay you that

40:44

brief compliment. I know you're not going to get

40:46

into the history with Giuliani because

40:48

of representation. But it is a matter of news. And

40:50

his other former lawyer here who was

40:52

out on the warpath against certain figures

40:55

like Michael Cohen is now suing him. So there seems

40:57

to be some pressures. I do want to play to remind

40:59

viewers, this is the gentleman suing Mr.

41:01

Giuliani back when he was representing him. He was attacking

41:04

Cohen, took a look. They

41:07

notified me that Michael Cohen had

41:10

executed a waiver of the attorney client

41:12

privilege. For reasons I have

41:14

no idea.

41:16

Frankly, it was a very stupid move by Michael

41:18

Cohen, because now we're able to tell

41:20

the truth about what Michael Cohen was saying

41:23

at any point in time. He's totally unreliable.

41:26

I have Costello, who's now, instead

41:28

of spending time with Tag and Cohen, he's just trying to get what

41:31

he says is money that is owed. Even

41:33

if we put your former client to the side, I got about 45 seconds.

41:36

What do you see here in these RICO codefendants

41:39

and the pressure on them?

41:42

I think the real issue here is third

41:44

party payments. And I think what's happened

41:46

with Trump is a disservice. We

41:48

all live with third party payments. It's a

41:50

question of ethical lawyers. If

41:53

I don't mean I don't make myself up as

41:55

the model, but any ethical lawyer will say to

41:57

a client, look, even if I'm not going

41:59

to pay my fees. My responsibility

42:01

is to you, and you're going to tell the truth, whatever

42:04

it is. If it's in your interest to cooperate,

42:06

you will. If it's not, we'll go to trial. And

42:09

I think that the problem is it's being abused, and

42:11

people think there's a perception that when

42:14

Trump pays legal fees, he's buying silence.

42:17

I don't know if that's fair in reality, but

42:19

if that's the case, that's obstruction. If

42:22

it's not the case, people are

42:24

entitled to have their legal fees paid.

42:27

Mm-hmm. Understood. And that's an important issue.

42:29

As you say, some of this goes back to the bar, you

42:32

know, people who have all their criticisms and jokes about lawyers,

42:35

but this country has at times been benefited

42:37

by honest lawyers. Lawyers, for example, who represent

42:39

the civil rights community, Marla King, lawyers

42:42

like yourself who worked in Watergate, completely

42:44

on a nonpartisan basis. So if

42:47

this is an issue, as you mentioned also with the bar,

42:49

I hope it's addressed. John Thale, thank

42:51

you for being here tonight. We're going to take a break, but

42:53

we are not done when we come back. I'm going to explain

42:56

where you can follow up to learn a little bit more about one

42:58

of our special pieces tonight and what I want

43:00

to hear from you and how to reach me. That's next.

43:08

Thanks for spending time with us here on this special edition

43:10

of The Beat, The Trials of Donald Trump. We showed

43:12

you that Peter Navarro interview, his

43:15

first time talking to me since his conviction.

43:17

And I wanted to share with you that while

43:19

we just showed an excerpt of it, or you may have heard about it, we

43:21

actually have uploaded most of it and you can go

43:23

to msnbc.com

43:26

slash Ari and we can show

43:28

you our YouTube page here on screen. That's

43:30

msnbc.com slash Ari. It takes

43:32

you to our YouTube playlist.

43:34

So you can find the Peter Navarro interview there, other

43:37

segments we did tonight and across the week. So I always

43:39

encourage you to check out that website

43:42

link. You can also always find me on social media,

43:44

arimelber.com or any social

43:46

site, go to arimelber.com to connect

43:49

with me. I've gotten some questions with you guys about

43:51

the news, life, what's ahead, and I try to answer

43:53

them there. So just wanted to mention that

43:56

as we all take in this living

43:58

history together. That does it for us. Keep it.

43:59

here

44:00

on MSNBC.

44:22

You

44:30

can do this when you angie that.