0:00

our job is journalist, the the way i i see

0:02

it is

0:02

not to to make a a pronouncement, not to to

0:04

convince people think one way way or

0:06

the the other, but to explain why

0:09

things happen suddenly they're telling us us

0:11

as reporters we can include something

0:13

that's true because it goes against some

0:15

kind kind of narrative colorful,

0:18

sharp liberal

0:20

often satirical journalist for

0:22

15 years, rolling stone of with the famous articles

0:24

like the the great american bubble machine with

0:26

matt, taibbi refers to to goldman sachs a

0:28

sachs vampire squid wrapped around the the face

0:31

of humanity yet matt, and i

0:33

are are planning a rather large coming ground of the your or 2022

0:35

that's how a you the be right across the the board and and finance

0:38

for its international policy presidential campaign,

0:40

for started

0:42

overseas specifically in in uzbekistan, until

0:45

been deported for piece of associated press

0:47

those critical of the countries rather rather

0:49

in russia met and it'd be absolved

0:51

irreverent newspaper from moscow that's different

0:53

from different is i'm ears or that his first

0:55

both the outside sex drugs and libel and

0:57

the libel russia his entire career

1:00

is brandon my this highly subjective often

1:02

brazen journalism and often said well as

1:04

we seen the left has now process

1:06

sassy getting any every little doesn't any

1:08

and orthodoxy without liberals

1:11

agnes and twenty twenty that

1:13

ethnicity this war for no longer be published

1:15

his own says he planted his published flag

1:17

subset continuing journalism independence

1:20

in this episode to stuff with left liberals and

1:22

even journalism now i'm sorry some

1:24

time on presidential campaign for help and

1:26

what happened aftermath bit of the it reaches

1:29

cinema viewing about losses what is woman

1:43

well sunday ,

1:47

special on one today sports the ben

1:49

thats ben matt woman

1:52

some bonus questions the and matt taibbi one

1:54

the we to get access thats of publication his

1:56

become a member daily wire com sunday

2:00

click that link in the episode of description

2:02

used corvette for 25% off they have access

2:04

to all of the full conversations with every

2:06

one of our awesome thanks

2:09

so much for join the show thanks so much for having been

2:11

so what, why don't we start with

2:13

the obvious here matt? which is that it's super weird that were talking

2:15

to each other so like 15, 15

2:17

years ago this would have been almost unthinkable, right?

2:19

i was working at breitbart about 2012/2013

2:23

and that you were writing for rolling stone

2:25

and it was your pitch battles

2:27

in the streets and all the rest and yet now,

2:29

here we are somewhat exactly changed

2:32

do you think that it's now may

2:34

conversations? like this possible on the

2:36

one hand and forbid, not the other one?

2:38

i i think there's been a significant

2:40

changing of what the mentality

2:43

is on, what used to be my side of the eye and

2:45

people like me i'm obviously like

2:47

middle of the road a seal you old

2:49

school liberal ah in

2:52

i believe in free speech civil

2:54

liberties are due process

2:56

all those things are people like

2:58

me are really dinosaurs

3:02

are no longer welcome on

3:04

the new left which is taking this dramatic

3:06

turn towards censorious

3:08

nurse i ,

3:11

toward , authoritarian approach to some

3:13

problems i think there's

3:15

belief that the old leftists

3:18

, or the old liberal approach to

3:20

the the ineffective

3:23

i and so you know we've

3:25

all been sort of kicked out of the club basically

3:28

so outs using any point of view at

3:30

all really suddenly people

3:33

like you and me are you and know a

3:35

media bedfellows

3:37

remember this some they're fine just utterly

3:39

bewildering if you watch sort of the progress of american

3:41

politics since the nineteen sixties there's no

3:43

question illiberalism was when it and been unusually

3:45

every front social francisco for

3:48

maybe even foreign policy front maybe i'm by

3:50

been on the first two for sure i mean it there's no

3:52

question that the left had been in ascendancy

3:54

my entire lifetime and the sort of radical

3:56

shift to you guys are wildly ineffective

3:58

stop talking to people the other side

4:00

we can't have free speech we need to lot this stuff the

4:02

and to avoid offending people where do

4:04

you think this is coming from

4:06

i have no idea what i totally agree with you

4:08

is you know when i was going

4:10

up there would have been no sign dollars

4:13

conservatism as an attractive ideology

4:15

for a young person like that without that

4:17

was completely out of the realm of

4:19

possibility but now i

4:22

think you see very significantly with something

4:24

like humor there's just no sense

4:26

of humor on on the political less

4:28

now and that is to be the exclusive province

4:32

of the political left once upon time and mean i

4:34

i grew up listening sir richard pryor

4:36

albums and you know that is sam

4:38

tennis and that was my education growing up

4:41

and ah those were are people

4:43

we saw it i and now all

4:45

the sudden there's now joking

4:47

allowed on there's side the aisle and

4:49

that's one the things the funny i

4:52

incidentally about

4:54

matt walsh is movie is that it's

4:56

done we the kind of sense

4:58

of humor in a satirical band that

5:00

sort of taboo ah on

5:02

our side the aisle now which i find

5:04

really strange because that that shift

5:07

happened almost overnight and

5:09

imperceptibly

5:11

oh man he mentioned met last movie

5:13

what is woman which is massively successful documentary

5:15

rasmus and unbelievable business it hasn't

5:17

received single mainstream review and of course when

5:20

we sent out the movie for view to

5:22

all of reviewers we got back just nasty nodes

5:25

cursing people saying they definitely would not watch

5:27

it's even the prospect of having received the email

5:29

was apparently in some sort of

5:31

the you up on the bonnet played a didn't have

5:33

been reached out to lead the

5:35

you are now infected and had to be quarantined

5:38

for a particular period of time at you wrote

5:40

about this your about fact the people unless or either

5:42

completely ignoring film or just ripping it without haven't

5:44

seen it and you receive that extraordinary amount blowback

5:47

any talk about with what drove you to write a piece

5:49

know what was blowback like

5:51

if the first of all i

5:53

had kind of tried to stay away from the as

5:55

you i did you know it's it's complicated

5:57

i i try to avoid issues i

5:59

don't know the whole lot about ah

6:01

but i had i had done couple stories

6:04

that touched on this basically from the speech

6:06

angle and i'd had really

6:08

unusual experience mean i've been a

6:10

reporter for thirty years now

6:12

and it's always the same message you call

6:14

around whole bunch of people you ask

6:16

them all what they think and then at the

6:19

end you can aggregate all the opinions

6:21

and figure out where the story is but

6:23

with the trans the see what i found his i would

6:25

call some people and they would talk to me and

6:27

then there because other group of people will

6:29

be furious that you even called ah

6:32

would refuse to have any kind of discussion

6:34

would call you a transfer for even asking certain

6:36

kinds questions and this is before

6:38

even have a point of view and the subject so

6:41

i was you know that's what that was odd

6:44

and then i had done an interview with woman

6:46

named tara dance key who is a

6:48

feminist agenda the gender critical feminists

6:51

and i

6:54

it's not that i purposely show but i just didn't

6:56

want to deal with the blowback that i knew was

6:58

going to com i kept telling myself

7:00

it wasn't the right time so

7:03

as felt guilty or and guilty or about that

7:05

old as time progressed in one match

7:08

movie tim and one one is woman came out i

7:10

realized i thought this was an

7:12

opportunity to kind of six the

7:15

that problem of having you're

7:17

not run nine interview so i i did both

7:19

once i reviewed mats movie and ran

7:21

an interview at the same time and

7:24

the the response was unbelievable

7:26

just for reviewing the movie

7:28

forget about what i said about it's i'm

7:30

in i lost friends over that there are there

7:32

were people who who i've known for

7:35

decades who who have no

7:37

of basically said that on the transform nice

7:39

i i'm kind of out of

7:41

there loop

7:44

i'm really amazed by that response and and

7:46

that any given would seen this i

7:48

the people who i when friendly with unlikeable like

7:50

jesse singal he's right for new york magazine

7:52

and jesse's had exactly the same issues the herzog

7:55

was the lesbians has had exactly the same

7:57

issues emily bazelon resort his recently

8:00

the for a new york magazine that i think was actually

8:02

fairly friendly toward the the transgender and

8:04

she was ripped up and down on that and gets

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more this in just one second first but

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unfortunately i think that what you went through is not

9:24

a unique experience it seems like a lot

9:26

of what's happened in politics and maybe this is the big

9:28

difference between traditional liberals

9:30

and the new left movement is

9:32

question of how people identified i don't mean

9:34

don't find homes of gender i mean what

9:36

people see the core of them so when

9:38

people feel that the core them is their

9:41

politics as of the politics is why

9:43

them and then there's an attack their politics

9:45

it's in is hop on core identities and it's had on

9:47

me and and will never be allowed and even sit

9:49

down with anybody would attack my politics means

9:51

that you're trying to erase nice a lot of

9:53

the language that's now applied they

9:55

they used to be applied on issues that

9:57

are immutable like issues of biology

10:00

there no it's applied to political

10:02

viewpoints again if he he you don't see

10:04

me unless you disagree with me and

10:06

to sit down with somebody who disagrees is somehow seen

10:09

as mark of as you say phobia

10:11

yeah and that's especially problematic and my

10:13

job right of is your reporter

10:16

i'm in your job is to sit down with all

10:19

types of people in we're not supposed surrender

10:21

judgment we're supposed to understand primarily

10:23

on one of the first moments when i realized

10:26

something really dramatic had changed

10:29

the on our side of the aisle team

10:31

in the two thousand and sixteen election and i

10:33

was doing a campaign sorry i've covered

10:36

i'd covered the the print presidential elections

10:38

for rolling stone for five

10:41

election campaigns and i

10:43

interviewed a guy from wisconsin who said

10:46

are you know my whole family was democrat

10:48

ah we've never voted for republican

10:50

army union member they

10:52

lied to us about nafta and i'm going vote for

10:55

trump because you know they

10:57

they lied to us and i put that in my piece

11:00

i didn't have an opinion on and i just put it in the peace

11:02

and got all this blowback from colleagues

11:05

who were saying you're validating the

11:07

economic insecurity argument

11:09

a no from plus and time liberal

11:12

read in style liberalism and

11:14

seen for be a and

11:16

no a no a read covering

11:18

from but our

11:20

our job is journalist the way i see not

11:23

to make a pronouncement not to convince

11:25

people to boot think one way or the other

11:28

but to explain why things happen

11:30

and i think trump this phenomenon

11:32

that had lot of explanations and one

11:35

of them was was the one that did this guy

11:37

in wisconsin was talking about you know i mean

11:39

he felt like to and so suddenly

11:41

they're telling us as reporters we

11:43

can include something that's true because

11:45

it goes against some kind of narrative

11:48

that was crazy i had never seen that

11:50

journalism before and and

11:52

that was a that was a signal to me that

11:54

something big was was going on the

11:57

manager a broader theme the you been reading about for

11:59

years but is really

12:00

been exacerbated the all sides the political aisle

12:02

and that is just institutional distress the

12:04

that the left and assorted congenital institutional discuss

12:06

with regard to say corporate america in right was more trusting

12:09

another right is not trusting with regard to corporate

12:11

america or the right had a congenital trust

12:13

of say the f b i and other is not trusting

12:16

of the f b i have feels like there's now

12:18

sort of consensus position over the last several

12:20

years as an anti establishment

12:22

consensus is it's now a consensus

12:24

that the institutions have dramatically failed

12:27

us in the people who continue to promote

12:29

those institutions are sort whistling past

12:31

the graveyard it's it's it's creating some very weird

12:33

political undercurrents dynamics

12:36

absolutely and as you didn't see that as

12:38

as a a primary

12:40

driver of what was going on two thousand

12:43

and sixteen you you you were in a very good

12:45

campaign reporter on them thanks i

12:47

think is who is very obvious in two thousand

12:49

and sixteen that what

12:51

drove both the bernie sanders movement and

12:53

the trump movement was this the

12:55

enormous groundswell of distrust

12:58

towards institutional america and trump

13:00

picked up on it very early ah

13:02

you know whether he went after nato

13:05

ah or the seat intelligence

13:07

services and especially us i remember

13:09

this i was in these halls when

13:11

you know we'd all be behind the rope

13:13

line the press corps and and trump would

13:15

start to go after us and would say look at those

13:17

bloodsuckers you know they they hate

13:20

you a middle america is

13:22

that they want me to lose they want you

13:24

to lose and people would throw stuff

13:26

at us and i you know

13:28

lot of reporters didn't understand it i totally

13:30

got it you know i i guess i when i

13:32

saw was these are people who felt

13:35

that the press and always other institutions

13:37

had betrayed them are you know especially

13:40

after two thousand and eight it it made

13:42

total sense to me what i think to a

13:44

lot of other people would doesn't that they still

13:46

don't get it that this is out

13:48

there that middle america has the

13:50

office way and ah i'm

13:53

i'm flabbergasted that there's still people

13:55

who don't see

13:56

it really is kind of amazing because

13:59

why i think the dead

14:00

blinders have really come off to the idea that

14:02

the people who purport to speak for particular

14:04

institutions really just speaking for themselves and

14:06

that the institutions in which replace across

14:08

our guys for for their own power as a

14:10

struck me pretty forcibly and last few

14:12

weeks actually when was looking at what was going

14:14

on the world economic forum he had people like class

14:16

rob who's out there saying we have

14:18

the power in this room to remake the

14:20

the world in in our own image and think

14:23

wait hold up second you second ago were talking about

14:25

the power laissez faire economics in power capitalism

14:27

it's and as a person who's conservative

14:29

libertarian minded on economics and

14:31

i most other issues as like okay well that part sounds

14:33

good but then you immediately shift into

14:35

okay but we and our friends we are

14:38

answerable to no one can now decide what policies

14:40

ought to be pervade to the

14:42

vast majority of the globe feel like you're

14:44

lying to me what you're basically saying me right now is

14:46

that you want use the power of institutions you

14:48

didn't create in order ramsey hundred

14:50

gender that none of us approve of you'll think

14:52

that's happening in institution after institution

14:55

yeah absolutely and this may

14:57

be something that i that i have had

14:59

little bit of a sneak peeks look at

15:02

because i lived in russia for ten years before

15:04

i move back to the states and you really

15:06

to thousands and those meetings at the at

15:08

davos where

15:11

you know officials who are close to the else administration's

15:14

there are lots of backroom deals that we're done

15:17

you know in switzerland that it that

15:19

have enormous enormous impact on future

15:22

of russia the time and had pay lot of attention

15:24

to that that was not something that i

15:26

think the average american had to think about

15:28

ever until very recently ah

15:31

but now we know we do have to think about the

15:33

user unaccountable international

15:36

, or whether

15:39

you know domestically here in united states institutions

15:41

like the cia the and and say the f b

15:43

i ah this

15:45

a permanent bureaucracies they

15:48

invade you have an impact on politics

15:50

think we've seen this very graphically an

15:53

a or the ordinary americans

15:55

now i think more tuned

15:57

that than they ever have been before

16:00

what do you think that the the solution to some of that

16:02

stuff is gonna be because there's one mentality

16:04

which is okay but it all down get rid all these

16:06

institutions as start grounds up

16:08

don't start over at off and the other

16:10

as we can kind of correct with an institution

16:12

seems like that than natural inclination

16:14

for people within the institutions has to do neither

16:16

of those is just kind

16:19

eternal it's just go into the shell

16:21

claim that everybody who opposes you is obviously

16:23

some sort of extremists his from big tech which

16:25

is trying shut down opinions they don't like you see from

16:28

for example during covered the cdc which would have immediately

16:30

declare that they are public health opinions

16:34

were the science and then five months later

16:36

they would realize they were wrong and that became

16:38

the new science but what how do you

16:40

think that that's that's going to shake out because

16:43

it it and what we're talking down to the reaction

16:45

could be quite dangerous mean some these institutions

16:47

are still kind of necessary and they do need

16:49

serious corrected it's

16:51

it's an enormous societal problem

16:54

when the the public doesn't trust institutions

16:57

you know beginning with the media frankly

17:00

yeah i think i think it's a it's huge

17:02

problem when people don't

17:04

trust the news they

17:06

get over the airwaves mean i've written

17:08

about this walter cronkite

17:10

was voted the most trustworthy person in america

17:13

twice once the beginning the seventies and

17:15

once in middle of the eighties that would never

17:17

happen today like the most trustworthy person

17:19

america being a mainstream

17:22

news anchor would never happened today or

17:24

but you need the public needs to have

17:26

some faith in the f b i

17:28

and you know of in in of

17:31

these other institutions but i think

17:33

you're right think the inclination the people

17:35

who are sitting those shares right now

17:37

this is not to fix the problem

17:40

or not to recognize the problem the only

17:42

solution for more i said as they have to govern

17:44

better they have to do a better job of

17:46

providing for population and that

17:48

seems to be the last thing that occurrence for

17:50

them like this they all one of

17:53

you know get into power through some kind of

17:55

political machinations whether it's you

17:57

know impeaching their the the people

17:59

in the other already your or you

18:01

know using some kind of messaging campaigns

18:04

that they think will temporarily get them over

18:06

it's not gonna work the only thing that's going work

18:08

is is actually delivering for people

18:11

in and getting them better jobs and getting them

18:13

better lifestyles and they they just don't

18:15

want to do it i don't understand why the

18:17

i'm in it is one the big mysteries as is watching

18:20

as for example of administration pursues ideological

18:22

goes over stop it clearly

18:25

works is is kind of insane man

18:27

gets that with yet and just one second first

18:29

what's up about recruiting a your company

18:31

though there a lot things to do this summer you want a free

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up as much time as possible to enjoy themselves

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emmys if you're business owner last thing you want

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is sort through lot of unqualified has

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it's resumes when you could be you

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know actually having a the time with your kids the sorrow

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a going out on the boat and mubarak it's this is why

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you need zip recruiter to do the work for you

18:49

be well matt show get the ben in

18:51

plus trails for for liberal questions at com

18:53

like ben get liberal for years

18:55

this com for like now to finance matt

18:57

the read campaign is ep with years from he

18:59

reviewed the read planted campaign in by

19:01

years after whats his to a plus independently

19:03

liberal has become plus read today matt he

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the to for reviewed read ratified

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employers you post on zip recruiter get a quality

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candid with in day one wonders a

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broker is the number one written hiring side

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face and g to satisfaction ratings as

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january one two thousand and twenty two so

19:19

no com on thats member has to often and

19:21

left liberal to on work for read for the

19:23

years here become liberal reviewed dont

19:25

com special ben get time

19:28

from castigating a liberal for dont com

19:30

flag be and continue he

19:32

as he his ep reviewed dont com

19:34

flag ben get liberal after his and he

19:36

the sports to though i

19:38

wanted that opinion on the by demonstration so far

19:40

so one joe biden won the election the

19:42

basic concept was dead person

19:45

who's i had do lot suppose that was pretty much

19:47

that that's pretty much what he what he was running on a

19:49

sort the appeal it was okay yeah things

19:51

are going pretty well economically and even foreign policy

19:53

wise up until the pandemic and

19:55

then trump's as crazy stuff on tv and he's with lot

19:57

of crazy stuff he's incredibly hiring and

20:00

lot of a bit a lot americans what i just

20:02

don't want that so let's find somebody

20:04

who's former inanimate

20:06

and will put that person in office to

20:09

basically just kinda leave things alone or bring back

20:11

some sort of seizes and instead joe

20:13

biden comes in and he immediately starts talking

20:15

about world breaking case as build that better

20:17

he's gonna blow out the spending he's going

20:19

to completely remake where we

20:21

aren't was a foreign policy by boat pulling out of

20:23

afghanistan and then getting us involved in

20:25

a in pre protracted conflict in ukraine

20:28

and americans looking at all this and going i don't

20:30

understand what you are doing or why you

20:32

are doing it what joe

20:34

biden dude you think to pull out of taleban to do

20:36

think the sort baked into the cake that the establishment

20:38

politics or just such that this was going to

20:40

happen no matter what

20:42

think this is gonna happen no matter what

20:44

i'm in a much i

20:47

covered by his campaign until

20:49

of course he stop campaigning ah

20:51

and it is

20:53

the obvious idea behind joe biden

20:56

was they looked at what happened in two thousand

20:58

and sixteen and they saw hillary

21:00

clinton ran as a as an insider like

21:03

whole pits to america was i've

21:05

been in washington for twenty five years i know how

21:07

things work ah you know

21:09

you you can trust me at three o'clock

21:11

in morning when there's a crisis but

21:13

know that's classic democratic party they

21:16

they had no sense that the entire population

21:18

the one thing they hated most that time

21:20

was the political insiders so of course

21:22

that was disastrous philosophy the

21:25

whole idea behind joe biden is he has like

21:27

the sliver of credit credibility

21:30

as an ordinary person through his scranton

21:33

joe a persona this idea

21:35

that he's you know he comes from a family that you

21:37

know it with it in some distant

21:40

always working class the

21:43

what he hadn't be of course having govern no

21:45

way raid and and he's

21:47

is governed essentially through

21:49

this the upper class

21:51

elite politics that makes no sense

21:54

ah to most of america

21:56

and it doesn't translate well on television

21:59

basically doesn't translate when guys

22:01

basically a course he doesn't understand what he's saying

22:03

on on t v ah so

22:06

i think they're and burn lot of trouble i mean

22:08

i i i don't know exactly what they're going run

22:10

on the midterms

22:12

are already look like they're disaster

22:14

that disaster going to happen but what

22:16

happens in happens in next presidential

22:18

election is an even bigger mystery

22:20

i have i have no idea where they're going with that

22:24

it looks as though what they really want to run on his

22:26

from because biden be trump

22:28

into the just keeps running against trump and he

22:31

thinks say that he's going when i think that when he

22:33

felt threatened as couple things one travel

22:35

not the bell and twenty twenty do and who

22:37

knows whether he'll be the balance y twenty four years between

22:39

more more of an issue and but you know beyond

22:42

that the referendum is no new you're the

22:44

president of united states and you're not just the guy

22:46

gets to sit outside critiques of the guys waiting

22:48

on the toilet you're you're the one who actually is in charge

22:50

of things and joe biden seems to have this tendency

22:53

to free his presidency as

22:55

though he were an observer to is on press the

22:57

healthy thing and it

22:59

appears the he's just been made aware of them on

23:01

spell yell at get or her own just yell

23:03

gas companies believes what was that produce

23:05

more as well or know how you think government

23:08

works for you yelling at people is not typically

23:10

how government works or or or how policy

23:13

worth and so i wonder you know the the really

23:15

are doubling down on a lot of january sixth kind

23:17

stuff i wonder how you think that's playing

23:19

a what you think that impact as

23:21

i don't think that stuff works again you

23:23

know visit you go back to two thousand

23:25

sixteen there's went nuts

23:27

it's i remember correctly ninety percent

23:30

of the money spent on advertising was

23:32

on negative ads it was that they

23:34

had made decision essentially there going to run on trump's

23:36

negative they thought that was gonna get

23:38

them across to the of the goal line and

23:40

it didn't they spent four

23:42

years of trump's presidency essentially

23:45

doing the russia good thing and trying to run against

23:47

that and then he was ukraine jade

23:49

and they tried to run against that

23:52

are and they never came out with like positive

23:54

plan or what what their

23:57

theory was of how they were going again

23:59

the ordinary america back on its

24:01

feet how they were going i'm you know resort job

24:04

in places that you know had lost them

24:07

i am they're still not doing

24:09

that they stopped they still think it's it's

24:11

political the

24:14

you know there's some kind easy political fix

24:16

to the question getting elected i

24:18

think they just lucked out frankly that

24:20

the that a pandemic it had

24:22

not been for that they might even have lost in

24:25

in two thousand and twenty i

24:27

n's you know going forward

24:29

if they think they're they're they're they're going to win because

24:31

of january six regardless

24:34

what might think about bad anybody else might think

24:36

about that i think dirt dirt deluded

24:38

it's the same delusion that got them into trouble

24:40

and doesn't sixteen

24:42

one of fascinating things that i think has happened in democratic

24:45

politics as as as we started off conversation

24:48

the kind of unwillingness to run

24:50

on broad populist message i

24:52

even bernie sanders radio his basic

24:54

idea which was this broad kind of socialistic

24:56

populism

24:57

what was that it is equally appealing to

25:00

all racial groups i'm not going to campaign has made

25:02

it pretty clear when succeeds for example i'm not

25:04

gonna campaign on the basis of race specific policies

25:06

i'm just gonna say that a rising tide lifts

25:08

all lifts all boats and so if we redistribute

25:10

way that i wonder is tribute everyone will be help my

25:12

solution to racial inequality is

25:14

going be offensively

25:17

also to redistribution and it's it's an economic

25:19

populist message that is not racially specific

25:22

and use it so hard by the racialized

25:24

left that he then went walker

25:26

in twenty points you know effect by the way he are no

25:29

additional vote based on that and

25:31

feels like that's been direction of the democratic

25:33

party for quite a while and it

25:35

almost feels like it's been that way really since

25:37

two thousand and twelve or so and then two thousand

25:39

a brock obama ran as a great unifier

25:41

we're we're moving past are racialized moment

25:43

we're going to a in my purse and i'm a i'm

25:45

in a unifying figure and then he governs

25:48

in love to my twenties well he'd basically started

25:50

lot the unifying rhetoric on things like raise

25:52

and was about had ray vaughan was that his son could have

25:54

been for by martin and and what

25:56

happened in in ferguson missouri was indicative

25:58

of broader national pride with regard right the

26:01

democratic party fell love with this theory

26:03

that they could replicate what obama didn't want it's

26:05

well which was actually not

26:07

a irrevocable phenomenon and twenty twelve

26:09

he cobbled together is heavily multiracial

26:12

house educated white ladies co listen and

26:14

democratic party think figured from there on it this

26:16

was going to be the coalition and they failed

26:19

to recognize couple of things one problem

26:21

as unique as it into that was unique the

26:23

in time the media birthing which

26:25

that one you create a racialized population

26:28

there going to a backlash and that backlash includes

26:30

huge percentage of white american and

26:32

many people who don't want to identify as racially

26:35

essential members will grill does seen with hispanics now

26:37

who are going to well i'm not really interested in kind politics

26:40

know bernie pretty well as guy i go back

26:42

with him a long way way back in two thousand

26:44

and five i did a store with him where he invited

26:46

me to hang out for a month

26:49

in congress as he was still the house back

26:51

then he was you wanted people to know how the housework

26:53

and housework did he did something did know

26:55

politician or normal politician would do

26:57

which is just take me on tour of how everything

26:59

works the rules committee you know was

27:02

who's influencing what and

27:04

you're absolutely right in two thousand sixteen

27:07

he was drawing blood on hillary clinton early

27:09

in that race and when when he started going after

27:11

her about her connections to these big

27:13

banks that paying her these massive amounts

27:15

of money for speaking fees

27:18

ah and lot of these were the same banks that

27:20

had gotten you know people trouble

27:22

in two thousand eight the

27:25

the democratic party try it all these responses

27:27

and none of them worked until hillary

27:30

did this thing that i think was brilliant

27:33

it radically change the direction

27:35

of the the democratic party she said

27:38

well if we broke up all the banks today

27:40

would that and racism and

27:43

it it's just deflected the conversation

27:46

and i think for somebody like bernie the

27:49

and i don't want to psychoanalyze them but

27:51

for somebody who's grown up in

27:54

become the less liberal he ecosystem

27:56

the worst thing the world is to be accused

27:59

being like actually regressive to be

28:01

a or were being a bigot i

28:03

think it was paralyzing to his campaign i

28:05

think he struggled with it's us road

28:07

the rest two thousand and sixteen and and he

28:09

definitely struggle with it the two thousand

28:11

and nineteen two thousand and twenty race and

28:14

it took him away from that message that with that

28:16

think was working on you know

28:18

he is he was saying lot of the same things

28:20

oddly enough the donald trump was saying that

28:23

year or trump even

28:25

said that on the stump remember listening

28:27

to don't trump saying know bernie and bernie you know

28:29

we have we have common were saying lot of the same

28:31

things and in

28:34

others think the media is

28:36

trying very hard to to prevent

28:38

people from realizing that that that

28:40

populist message if

28:44

somebody were try it would really work

28:46

you know and and bernie made

28:48

a big mistake i think tactically by going

28:50

away from them

28:51

into second one ask you about that sort of populism

28:54

and and a populist message and and whether a

28:56

horseshoe theory is real or it's just that

28:58

the critique is re is the same

29:00

but the but solutions are very very different get

29:02

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yes ran over to he would sleep that on slash

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bar okay so are you talk

30:20

about that sort populist message because he yeah you're exactly

30:23

right i'm in a in any see it across

30:25

the border a seat down from praising for example

30:27

bernie sanders or tucker carlson praising

30:29

elizabeth warren's economic plan read that that

30:31

actually has happened on the earth boxes

30:33

and is hurting yourself okay well that's that's

30:36

an interesting sort of horseshoe or

30:38

is what really seeing just

30:40

that's what we're trying that before that the critique

30:42

of the institutions is clearly correct it's

30:44

just that everybody has wildly varying solutions

30:46

to the precinct on the institutions meaning that

30:49

i look at a wall street in say listen i love

30:51

capitalism i'm a huge capitalism dance while

30:53

three not engaging capitalism they're engaging

30:55

in a sort of predatory practice

30:58

whereby they work hand glove with the government and

31:00

then use their power to promote he

31:02

has to be ideals within corporations in

31:04

which they invest and people on let's say although

31:06

the corporations are bad guys and if there are more

31:08

government control to break up those corporations

31:11

and this would somehow foster greater

31:13

greater fairness i wonder whether in

31:16

fact sort of temporary agreement is false

31:18

as as i guess i'm asking

31:20

no i think you're right i mean i

31:22

covered the the aftermath of two thousand

31:25

need for nearly a decade and

31:28

i watched watched

31:30

scenes one comes to mind i covered

31:33

foreclosure course in jacksonville

31:35

florida if you remember they were foreclosing

31:37

on so many people they had to bring judges at a retirement

31:40

ah to do these things called rocket dockets

31:43

where they were essentially you would

31:45

go into a like a conference room and a judge

31:47

would would throw somebody out of out

31:49

of a house every three minutes or so

31:51

i know beauty of these old daughter

31:53

and eighty year old judges will the people

31:55

in those rooms they weren't left or right they

31:57

were they were both republicans and democrats

32:00

the victims of the two thousand

32:02

and eight crash and

32:05

i think you i actually agree with your now so

32:07

i think that was perversion of capitalism most

32:09

of my sources back then were

32:11

wallstreet people ah they were

32:13

people who were saying real problem

32:15

is that you know do

32:18

the bailouts are picking

32:20

winners and losers ah

32:22

they're giving unfair advantages to these

32:24

gigantic too big too fail banks in

32:27

they're letting these written these mid mid size

32:29

regional banks fail in

32:31

that's not really capitalism made like that's not

32:34

the adam smith's ideal we should let feel

32:36

failures fail on you know what

32:38

, chips fall where they may ah

32:41

but it's ah but are

32:43

true that that

32:45

people on both the left the right poor

32:47

people middle class people working class

32:49

people they they

32:51

both gone through the same things they both been

32:53

affected the same way as may have lot

32:55

the same common interests the critiques

32:58

and the answers may be different ah

33:00

according to whatever politicians they follow

33:03

but think they have lot in common and i think

33:05

that there's one

33:07

of the one of the mean a

33:09

motives of kind the device

33:11

of media model that we have today's to keep

33:14

people from realizing it that they have those

33:16

common interests

33:17

the let let's talk about the media for a second because

33:20

any i totally agree obviously with your critique of the

33:22

media i do wonder whether when

33:24

talk about media figures been widely

33:26

trusted maybe that that's impossible

33:28

simply because the internet basically ended idea that

33:30

was it was easy to say i trust while walter cronkite

33:32

when he was one of three people on cd who's talking

33:34

about news it's lot harder to say here

33:36

is guy i trust when you have one hundred

33:38

different sources and they're all critiquing each other

33:41

and usually there's something too many

33:43

many of critique and so you know was

33:45

and we have daily wire we are or obviously

33:47

a right wing company we make no bones

33:49

about their back to the bottom every one our articles

33:51

literally everyone we have disclaimer at bottom saying

33:53

we are conservative media company everything

33:55

that we do is through the lens of of our values

33:58

that think i think is significantly more on than

34:00

than most of other media companies that claimed

34:02

that they have no bias whatsoever for the day or

34:04

just speaking the pure unadulterated truth than have

34:06

like brian stelter promoting whatever on

34:09

on cnn show that that than

34:11

that the breakdown in in the media i

34:13

agree with you that it is

34:15

so important that

34:18

there's not even commons in the daily show there's not

34:20

common set of facts but the really is not common set fact

34:22

mean and and that not the code

34:24

people on right lying about facts invariably

34:27

say that that because day off in the mainstream

34:29

sources our obscuring the actual

34:31

facts in paragraph seventeen of a york

34:33

times article where the headline is actually wrong

34:35

they'll put the fact in but it's buried and period paragraph seventeen

34:39

yeah i agree with you i mean i'm a i'm kind

34:41

of the inverse of what your model

34:43

is right leg i grew up reading

34:46

hundred thompson and tom wolfe when i always

34:48

thought in my

34:50

father was a newsman by the way you as

34:52

a tv reporter and he was like a straight news

34:54

reporter didn't he did one editorial as

34:56

entire life ever everything was that just

34:58

the facts ma'am was him i want

35:00

the other way i liked the idea

35:02

of being and editorializing

35:04

funny writer ah but

35:06

letting people know exactly what thought about

35:09

things at all times always have that was more honest

35:11

than like the new york times model

35:13

where you know the by caesar's

35:15

frankly hidden right whether they put a headline

35:18

and on page four page mana

35:21

whether it's in big fonterra little fund these are

35:23

all editorial decisions they matter and

35:25

it's signal telling you

35:27

what organization thinks about the subject

35:30

however i do think we lost something

35:32

when those companies went away

35:34

from the what

35:37

let's say the objectivity

35:39

as an aspiration i think that

35:41

was important when new companies

35:43

tried least little

35:45

bit to be down the middle right to

35:48

to present both sides of an issue to not

35:50

care so much about what

35:52

what the impact of a news story was think

35:54

yeah i think that was important think i think you need

35:56

to have both kinds of media i

35:58

need have the over the subjective

36:01

media that tells you exactly what they think

36:04

and then think there's value to the to that other

36:06

time that says look i'm

36:08

just trying to get to the bottom of this your

36:10

i'll tell you this fact and that fact then you

36:12

decide for yourself what you want to do

36:14

but do about it and we've lost that

36:16

i think get sick in the modern media landscape

36:18

that doesn't exist anymore and that's that's

36:21

a big problem the

36:23

adding one of the analog in the in the modern

36:25

media landscape where there actually is open

36:27

by as is one think that i can make all the

36:29

time and i literally said this has at least once a

36:31

week get question when

36:33

somebody how do i ascertain the truth about particular

36:35

story where say is i want to listen my podcast

36:37

and a while you're in a positive america and where

36:39

we agree on the fact that can be the kind of quarterback

36:42

and everything else can be the opinion that drawn

36:44

their from and the that seems like

36:46

fairly young have a word lines

36:48

intersect that dot is gonna be the common

36:50

core affect the problem is dan pfeiffer goes

36:52

on msnbc and he literally says on msnbc

36:55

the face books it's shutdown off her traffic

36:57

to daily fare so well said

36:59

it is a feeling that i get is like well i'm

37:01

trying to say you don't find listen to anything

37:03

i'll i'll toss and of on bill marr show and america

37:06

my my shuttle be great

37:07

that there's whole side the aisle that's like know

37:09

it is a false objectivity to even

37:12

i'm okay idea that there is another idea so there should

37:14

not be another idea and so whatever

37:16

we say goes in a few contra birds that narrative

37:19

than your immediately barred from the club

37:21

and that's just the losing argument with

37:24

most our audiences mean people implicitly

37:26

just trust anyone who doesn't want you to do

37:28

to listen to someone elses argument right

37:31

i am and that used to be something

37:33

of that attracted me frankly to the

37:35

in of liberalism was

37:37

this idea that out here with a person says

37:40

i believe what i believe the new you can watch

37:42

matter listen to that if you want doesn't bother me

37:44

right well that's not the attitude anymore

37:47

and yet the attitude is we have to

37:49

do everything we tend to stamp out

37:51

this information misinformation or

37:53

whatever it is like that gonna

37:55

change something or or or like that's

37:57

going to have a positive impact on

37:59

on is it has the the opposite

38:02

i think it it it has a tendency

38:04

to inspire audiences to trust

38:07

the people in the opposite direction

38:09

if do that to the since sorriest

38:11

this this this new idea kind of stamping

38:14

out the other side completely

38:16

in the hope that the

38:18

oh you'll you'll be last opinion standing

38:20

that that's losing strategy i think

38:22

end it's it's incredible to me that

38:24

it's been adopted

38:26

what you think he'll that there's a lot of rot

38:29

in our institutions obviously a one of

38:31

the incisions you focus on on a lot

38:33

in your writing is is the up the i

38:35

did the national security infrastructure the i say the

38:37

c i a weird that brought

38:39

start has always been there were only just noticing

38:41

it now and we'll

38:43

how how you think it goes

38:46

know i don't know i mean as such as you go

38:48

back to the the think there was mutt there

38:50

was a moment in history in the

38:52

mid seventies when you

38:54

know you the yard the church committee hearings

38:56

yard seymour hersh doing that extraordinary

38:59

story about a domestic surveillance

39:02

program that was being cooked up and

39:04

american set for a long time had this incredible

39:06

distrust the intelligence agencies

39:09

because of what they heard of at church committee hearings

39:11

and then there was another moment

39:14

i after the iraq war ah

39:17

when all these revelations started to come out

39:19

about illegal surveillance programs

39:21

about the ennis a stellar when program

39:24

you know the snowden revelations

39:27

are you had heads of the intelligence agencies

39:29

perjuring themselves openly i

39:31

in testimony before congress and

39:34

if you are remember wasn't that long ago

39:36

just before donald trump got elected ah

39:39

there was tremendous animosity across

39:41

the board in america and distrust the

39:43

word those institutions and then what happened

39:45

was i think donald trump got elected in those

39:48

a lot of people those institutions presented

39:50

themselves as the defenders of democracy

39:52

were ones who are going to save you from donald trump

39:55

and suddenly they got this great press

39:58

ah and may revived themselves it was it

40:00

was cannabis amazing media come back

40:02

story in way i'm

40:04

but think what we've seen as a rock goes

40:06

pretty deep of to me that's the

40:08

headline story from russia did is

40:10

this sort of tat casual

40:13

corruption that pervades the entire

40:15

system throughout that narrative

40:18

ah which ought to have been shocking

40:20

been shocking to to reporters

40:23

are you know across the spectrum quickly

40:25

was not but i

40:28

think it's big problem i think most of america

40:30

especially on the right now they they have no

40:32

believe in

40:34

in that in those institutions anymore

40:37

i will admit that i feel like was laid

40:39

on the russia gate story not because i

40:41

didn't think that there is something fishy going on said

40:44

very early on i thought that there's something fishy going on but

40:46

didn't actually believe that the rock could possibly

40:48

go as deep as it ended up going

40:51

mean the when when there allegations for example

40:53

that that the visor court had

40:55

had not even been informed the

40:58

that car page stuff was basically scam

41:00

or that sealed off it was basically bit of oppo research

41:03

and that they and when ahead

41:05

need they signed this despise a warrant for

41:07

for therapy or when was

41:09

when i was being told said the entire at

41:11

the i infrastructure all the way up to games com

41:13

he was basically attempting to

41:15

oust donald trump by jury rigging together

41:17

a crap dossier and and laundering it into

41:19

media by having meeting was from other other

41:21

stuff is is pretty far fetched and then as

41:24

a began to materialize i

41:26

can see why broke people's world i can see why

41:28

that like they're they're there all these moments in people's

41:30

lives were they're sort of politically

41:32

defined and for some people was

41:34

nine eleven and for you know some people

41:37

it was declared sanitary and for

41:39

a lot people in though and last five years

41:41

is really been i think maybe three

41:43

things think maybe in the last five

41:45

years of his russia gay that it was

41:48

the the the power in have

41:50

who am i know the cavanaugh hearings in the

41:52

and that kind of triple whammy i think his is

41:54

destroyed so much trust not just in the

41:56

media but in virtually every major institutions

41:59

and any power that the insanity

42:01

of entire colbert institutional ram

42:04

down which i doubt that's the biggest one

42:06

of all autopsy about covered in just one second

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okay so i wanna talk to you about you know each

43:18

one of those things in her mouth start the day one so

43:20

cove it if if anything has

43:23

completely disrupted any

43:25

remaining institutional press that is existed

43:27

is go but i mean cove it was just they

43:29

they set we're told through out was just through

43:32

it was exaggerated it was this the

43:34

actual terrorists esoteric and

43:37

you say what what we tell you the public that have

43:39

your we behind closed doors not we know the

43:41

actual for you to stupid handle that we're going to

43:43

tell you something it's false feeling good gonna tell

43:45

your platonic lies you feel better about

43:47

things and the mean everything

43:49

exploded for me when it came to koba narrative

43:52

the minute that in june there were riots

43:54

in the middle of streets and giant protests

43:56

twenty one million people involved and we're being pulled

43:58

our health officials said in home

44:00

and not send your kids to the park but if you

44:02

are talking for george boyd then suddenly

44:05

everything was fine right college is one way it was

44:07

the woke is virus and all human existence at

44:09

that moment i think lot of people's bro

44:12

yeah the viewer lot of

44:14

things that made no sense about that story

44:16

from the very beginning very beginning know i

44:18

i think for me as a journalist watching

44:20

it i was in shock pretty

44:23

early on you know an

44:25

important characteristic important think of any good

44:27

reporter the to have humility

44:30

about the any story

44:32

that you're covering politically it a technical or

44:34

a scientific stories you know where

44:36

your knowledge level as zero going in

44:38

red sea are completely relying

44:41

on your sources tell

44:43

you the truth about something well

44:46

when may ruled out instantaneously

44:49

the idea that this could possibly

44:51

have originated in lab

44:54

for they had a definitive idea

44:56

of what how it actually had originated

44:59

the that told me something significant

45:01

had changed in the media landscape

45:03

like if don't have humility about possibility

45:06

that kudos it could have occurred

45:08

this way ah and you're absolutely

45:10

sure that it didn't happen that way

45:12

and mint must been this other thing the

45:17

that doesn't work with audiences you your chances

45:19

you chances the absolutely certain

45:22

all the time before you have

45:24

definitive answer in front of you and that

45:26

was a that was a pattern throughout covered they

45:28

would tell you something with absolute

45:30

certainty and then few months later they would you

45:32

know turn around and say oh yeah actually

45:34

we were wrong about that you know met

45:38

masks do work we do need

45:40

the map that's after we told you that

45:42

they didn't work and you don't need them were ventilators

45:44

are necessary them they're unnecessary

45:48

and i i that this stuff was was

45:50

all unhelpful right think if you're if

45:52

you're trying to be an honest you

45:55

know promoter of good health habits

45:58

you are you a damn it we

46:00

some doubt in your recommendations things

46:02

is this is our best guess right now right

46:04

as to what you should do but that's not what

46:06

they did they they they

46:08

essentially commanded people to behave

46:10

certain way and and

46:13

that tom was very off putting and and resulted

46:15

in a lot of a lot negative outcomes

46:18

you'd is also maddening because and in some

46:20

us to just read basic statistics you didn't have

46:22

to be like it's true none of us were epidemiologist

46:24

but you could see from the first few weeks the pandemic

46:26

that this was killing old people it was when nothing

46:28

young people he could see could read basic

46:31

stats and then you'd have public edwards

46:33

it contravenes says the just be out there saying

46:35

no to it's at serious risk to everybody

46:37

can have kids out there he got me for the

46:39

does the schools are closed not only are the schools cause

46:41

you as a young healthy person you are

46:43

definitely not allowed to go go

46:46

outside and and walk a little

46:48

where we were california the rule was the

46:50

has walked six feet apart from other human beings

46:52

when you were literally out that they shut down the beaches

46:54

they poured sand over the over the

46:56

skate parks in in venice while

46:59

you're in california meanwhile is

47:01

a if remember the when it

47:03

the a it may june and pandemic this

47:05

this basically what causes some of florida is

47:07

that this triple whammy of okay

47:09

well we're going to shut down all of human society

47:12

the

47:12

will confided your home because the riots outside we're not

47:14

going to do anything about those then

47:17

also we're going to make said we do nothing about massive

47:19

homeless problem with homeless problem that has now

47:21

destroyed quality of life southern california

47:23

and badmouth of late this is

47:25

all nonsense i can attest and all good conscience

47:28

pay taxes seats in the does

47:30

this egg as it my wife who is the

47:32

way was politically active than i am when all this

47:34

book she's like i don't know how

47:36

we're supposed raise kids under these circumstances

47:39

and yet you are being told that if you ask any of these questions

47:42

that social media would would would prohibit

47:44

you from of mass many of these questions like

47:46

said adding a ledge world level of madness

47:48

and politics frankly

47:51

he i think what we're settling with today everything

47:53

is now so reactionary that if somebody says something

47:55

don't even try to ascertain whether it's true or not you just immediately

47:58

reactors and who they are and said the or

48:01

if it's somebody who's giving you the sort counter

48:03

narrative you media least in the because everything

48:05

was conspiracy this is also conspiracy

48:08

and we saw know there were there were a couple

48:10

of reporters the new york times he tried to do

48:12

some i think earnest and good reporting

48:15

about the fairly minimal

48:17

risk sit two children ah

48:19

that the disease pose and and there were some

48:21

other reports where they tried talk

48:24

about you know the basically

48:27

how safe you were being outside

48:29

ah and that you didn't really need to wear a mask

48:34

but you can't you can't be wrong about

48:36

those things and tell people where

48:38

the people who believes seen , and

48:40

thanks bjp in middle of a mate

48:42

what's clearly mania and

48:44

then denounce everybody else as

48:47

being anti science so science think that's

48:49

i think doesn't work out of there were people

48:52

clearly on the right who had some other

48:54

ideas i think that we're not right

48:56

about the virus but the

48:58

messaging on you know from from

49:00

the mainstream media was inconsistent

49:03

at best i thought ah

49:05

condescending ah and

49:08

and contradictory off

49:10

that

49:11

is this drives into larger conversation

49:13

about the simple fact that now

49:15

you matt taibbi you're right winner

49:17

and know it as old mean congratulate

49:20

the did is how it seems to work these days

49:22

is joe rogan who i know well

49:25

and is definitely not right winger is right winger

49:27

because he was telling people during home maybe

49:29

should think about exercising they didn't

49:31

make him a right winger or because he said aber

49:33

makin which is apparently a horse

49:35

do you are not not the not the human time

49:37

that the horse your and it means that is obviously

49:40

rather i mean franklin the fact that even has me

49:42

or jordan peterson on show mint is right winger according

49:44

according left you're right winger now because you get

49:46

going on shows like this one or because you been on tucker

49:48

south this means that that you're right

49:50

winger bill maher is now right winger everybody

49:53

is is right wingers a number

49:55

one don't understand how that happened but

49:57

number two hours and why anybody unless since

49:59

the does it winning it with literally

50:01

everyone except yourself outside into the cornfield

50:03

and then you're surprised when you're alone in the house and everybody

50:05

outside has pitchfork whoa

50:08

it's it's or propaganda tactic

50:10

to try to try to earn

50:12

dismiss

50:14

any legitimate criticism from

50:16

within your own ten by

50:18

essentially saying these people are

50:20

are they're not

50:22

one of us the right wingers are trump or really

50:25

in disguise i did

50:27

the seminal moment for me came when

50:30

rogan indoors bernie sanders

50:33

and there were these stringent calls

50:35

even from sanders supporters

50:37

a for bernie to reject endorsement

50:39

member he was trying to win the election at

50:41

this point and and joe rogan

50:44

one of most influential media figures the country

50:46

and they said you all you have to you have to reject that

50:49

endorsement because bernie

50:51

will have because show once said something

50:53

about you know mm is fighters

50:55

maybe who are born male not not

50:58

being a good idea that they fight a

51:01

needle females right on

51:03

that's crazy you know mean like joe

51:05

rogan is to the left of probably

51:07

eighty percent this country and cease

51:10

to scream for you you

51:12

know that that's probably an indication

51:15

that there's something going on in in in your own

51:17

political a bubble that's

51:19

that's awry you

51:22

know the to me you know kind of

51:24

right winger you ease got opinions

51:26

that sort of are you

51:28

like the average person basically

51:30

right and that's that's how he presents himself in

51:32

that's why he's successful i think that's why his show

51:34

is successful he doesn't try to pose as anything

51:37

other than what he is i

51:39

and yet he's denounced and

51:41

nuts i again i just think it's a losing

51:43

strategy

51:45

one the things they always say about joe is that they're they're

51:47

always a while you'll he he has the blonde and they purport

51:49

be experts and they has and ask them questions

51:51

from position of expertise like that's his whole shtick

51:53

i mean just just whole thing is i don't

51:55

know anything about the south ignominy ask you questions

51:57

he's like a great the for

52:00

the agreements would ask a question that person

52:02

off the street who knows nothing about the saab it would

52:04

would want to know from you and that that is why

52:06

people listen to show it is the things media refused

52:08

to do because they can choose their experts this is one of my

52:10

my least favorite things that see in media is the laundering

52:13

of expertise is if you'll you'll see

52:15

an article from that's how it it onto her experts

52:17

say acts as ideas of what hold

52:19

up what are experts what they

52:21

know at shop egg and why are they say gags

52:24

and it is it's always like i can find five experts

52:26

the country to say almost anything

52:28

you choose as your as your base for

52:30

for an article that is one had media

52:32

buys me talked earlier about fact that when you know nothing

52:34

about topic is reporter he tried go get wide

52:37

variety of sources and then you try figure out what

52:39

is common thread where's the battle happening

52:41

said it seems like very often the media

52:43

in said there's preset narrative undergo find

52:45

five people who agree with that narrative and have a

52:47

phd next to their name and then it's experts

52:49

say experts really i say x and i just how

52:51

these experts to back me up

52:53

ray and and it's it's also

52:55

a school of journalism that says rapidly

52:57

disappeared i mean i think there's there are

52:59

as variety of in an interview techniques

53:02

the once

53:04

upon time was pretty standard for somebody

53:06

like charlie rose to do this this

53:09

style of interview where the whole idea

53:11

was to build rapport with somebody makes

53:13

them feel comfortable and let them express

53:16

to you what they're all about

53:18

in their own words so that they would

53:20

be understandable to to mass audience

53:22

it wasn't your job the

53:24

pin them down the or to prove

53:26

them wrong or to score points against

53:29

them or our own them writes ah

53:31

so you could put little video up on twitter

53:34

that this is where i got this person

53:36

right that that that's not what the job as the

53:38

job was it's an informational

53:40

job you're trying to learn what this person is

53:42

all about that's why we define mike wallace

53:44

interviewed the ayatollah khomeini right like he

53:46

did ask tough questions but

53:48

part of it is just trying to understand phenomenon

53:51

rights and that journalistic

53:54

curiosity is kind of been replaced

53:57

by this new phenomenon

53:59

of it's mix

54:01

of advocacy and i

54:05

would call it almost like performatives

54:07

the you know journalism

54:09

wait where you're trying to show that europe's

54:12

you know that your your side is winning

54:16

it doesn't doesn't whole lot for audiences in terms

54:18

of educating them about subject

54:21

though eleven hours have that kind the the

54:23

future's about the democratic party and republican

54:25

party so people are conservative

54:27

the boy makes organs the democratic party and will

54:29

say it looks frankly like they're

54:31

in a heap of trouble and muffled the people

54:34

who are these supposed moderates are falling to

54:36

woakes and enjoy by beings to perfect example

54:38

of this he's just saying things from his they sold is clearly

54:40

did not understand but has been told by his

54:42

advisors or burial mind that this is

54:44

stuff that he said say it feels like that

54:46

the older guard democratic party is

54:48

not have wiring around far more radical

54:51

young guard that that is using

54:53

them in order to achieve mainstream

54:56

sad the and them and then

54:58

young people unless look at the right now for you guys are becoming

55:00

ever more extreme your trump is party or

55:02

your perry their of his to acknowledge the results walesa's

55:05

you think that there is he would let

55:07

let's go party by party what do you think the future of democratic

55:09

party is you think that there is going be any

55:11

sort backlash are rising wave of people

55:14

hussein or enough is enough let's get back the brand

55:16

sort of almost john edwards ask

55:18

your mainstream populism that that was

55:20

the bread butter of the bill clinton or the democratic

55:22

party for years and years the

55:25

i think the one of the major

55:27

underreported stories and politics

55:29

the last twenty years so has been the dramatic

55:31

shift in the makeup the democratic

55:34

party where their bases if

55:36

you look at night the last time i looked

55:38

at this i think forty one of those of

55:40

the fifty wealthiest congressional

55:43

districts in america had

55:45

, in those seeds and isaac was all

55:47

of the top ten and

55:50

if you go back as recently as

55:52

nineteen ninety two that it

55:54

probably would have been more like a fifty like

55:56

a even sixty four he split in

55:59

in favor of repub organ this

56:01

idea that your affluent upper

56:03

class suburb is now

56:06

you know nearly somewhere between seventy

56:08

and ninety percent democratic vote

56:11

, most places places a

56:13

that's dramatic shift in the

56:16

composition of that the democratic party

56:18

i think this goes back even before clinton

56:20

nice goes back to eighty four

56:22

astor walter mondale when the dlc

56:24

stepped in and said we can have

56:27

unions being you know the main

56:30

supporters , the party anymore we to get

56:32

away from that we have to have more pro growth

56:34

strategy and they lost touch

56:36

with people who are shipbuilders

56:38

or who had had

56:40

manual labor jobs at work construction

56:43

like there there are no people like

56:45

that who rise with and democratic party

56:47

anymore then they don't they what

56:50

ordinary people think about what they're like

56:52

you know and i and so think that's a huge

56:54

problem for the party that

56:56

there's no theater system that

56:59

brings in people whom you know

57:01

in past medical from unions in

57:05

you know those people the

57:07

they're not there anymore

57:09

one of the things that that brings up is the fact that it

57:12

seems like when you look at it economically

57:14

it makes no sense right from economic perspective

57:16

if supposedly republicans are the party of

57:18

free markets and big business

57:20

and all the rest of those were these affluent areas

57:22

as going blue and all the lesser

57:25

affluent areas are starting to read

57:27

even including and in many hispanics districts now

57:29

i even the black or discerned it to move little

57:32

bit away from the democratic party's go to

57:34

ninety to ninety five percent black vote

57:36

for the democratic party not seems to moving in sort of like

57:38

eighty five ninety percent range and lot

57:40

before they've even eighty five percent which is just

57:42

the death knell for the democratic party demographically

57:44

speaking

57:45

yelp a if you look at it from it from fierce

57:48

mattress perspective or pure you

57:50

know economically for a conservative

57:52

perspective economic don't tell the whole story there's

57:54

a culture war here that is happening

57:56

and i think people in the media

57:59

refused to acknowledge go to war because there's

58:01

such participants in it said the other side doesn't

58:03

exist it shows you that like

58:05

what trump really was the kind middle finger to the

58:07

institutions but he was also thanks a bunch of people

58:09

who been attacked by the cultural institutions

58:12

as regressive and non tolerance

58:14

and better cleaners using them know

58:16

that lot of people out there were exactly like you and

58:18

look at me i'm new yorker own agree with lot

58:20

of this of the you guys the lead socially fights

58:23

i'm it for you with certain level of the flynn respect

58:25

as a human being and one people went well

58:27

as that of a that's it that's kind of refreshing prospect

58:29

of mean you're not even like mitt romney from the example

58:31

telling me this your your your somebody

58:34

who has that easily such

58:36

weird thing to get it from from because he's

58:38

not he isn't lead by every standard by every

58:40

economic standard average occasional standards

58:42

they didn't play like that he played like archie bunker

58:44

more than played like mitt romney that

58:46

even though he's much more like mitt romney and from some your

58:48

personal the economic lifestyle

58:51

than than archie bunker that's social

58:53

battle that you can either the

58:55

the most telling part the modern political

58:57

discourse and real maybe maybe the primetime

58:59

for does not predominantly about economics about levels

59:01

of respect for people who actually have different

59:04

values than your own the

59:06

i think that i think there's lot to that

59:09

another major under reported story was

59:11

one you just reference to do with

59:13

was the fact that in twenty

59:15

twenty oh know the constituency

59:18

that really elected joe biden was white

59:20

guys ah donald trump actually

59:22

outperformed the expectations

59:26

from twenty sixteen was every other

59:28

demographic including women

59:30

including black women black

59:32

men especially ah

59:35

hispanics ah and

59:37

what does that tell you that tells you that you

59:40

know that there's something that's

59:43

more important to these voters than what the

59:46

traditional mainstream media would have you believe

59:48

them in the i think there's a widespread

59:50

belief among people

59:52

in the in the press that if you're black

59:54

you just automatically are going to vote democratic

59:57

or because that's what you do right

1:00:00

i get good somewhat wrestling shoes or george

1:00:02

boyd that's the most important thing to you while

1:00:05

not necessarily my people are different

1:00:07

that's that's one of the things you learn as a campaign reporters

1:00:10

that is a million reasons why people who'd for

1:00:12

people they're all over the map you

1:00:14

night when i covered trump i'm

1:00:16

i had people who were

1:00:19

far to the right who who said things

1:00:21

that were you know kind of deeply offensive

1:00:23

to me you know on on the race front

1:00:25

and then had other people is that who who were like

1:00:27

just elderly ladies from cincinnati you said

1:00:30

yeah really liked is t v show you know

1:00:32

and like there are different reasons why

1:00:34

people vote for people you can't just make

1:00:36

assumptions a and when you

1:00:38

see those statistics the i

1:00:40

think there's something going on there were

1:00:42

you know there's there's battle between

1:00:45

the union's sort of go an ordinary

1:00:48

people working class people middle

1:00:50

class formerly middle class people who

1:00:53

, don't see their values reflected

1:00:56

in like the mainstream press and

1:00:58

from prominent democratic party politicians

1:01:01

and i think they're defecting you

1:01:03

know and that's big problem for for the democrats

1:01:06

the much the

1:01:08

other side the aisles obviously

1:01:10

you're still somebody identifies liberal i

1:01:12

don't know how you vote now because it's it's sort

1:01:14

of the i would seem heterodox it's or depends but

1:01:16

they even tell me sort of if if comfortable

1:01:19

that's know how you voted recent elections

1:01:21

or maybe not didn't have less time okay

1:01:24

fine so i'm yeah you look at republican

1:01:26

party what what what am can

1:01:28

you think the republican party is moving

1:01:30

in because there's this huge internecine war

1:01:33

for the of yeah from non

1:01:35

from national conservative or libertarian

1:01:37

like where you think the party's going there in one the

1:01:39

problems facing the

1:01:41

i think the the the republican

1:01:43

party isn't an interesting spot

1:01:45

because you know because of the

1:01:48

the incompetence of them of the democratic

1:01:50

party they're all these doors

1:01:52

that are open to them that have never been open to them

1:01:54

before you mentioned before that the conservatives

1:01:57

never one though because the cultural war

1:01:59

before we've never even options

1:02:01

they were always dominated on that front well

1:02:03

that's not true anymore like

1:02:06

there there are issues were were

1:02:08

republicans can when i'm

1:02:10

not particularly on things like free speech

1:02:12

and the civil civil liberties right like cause

1:02:14

they can represent themselves as champions the

1:02:16

that's however i think that happens to be

1:02:18

under club when you pass laws

1:02:20

banning certain kinds of speech you know

1:02:23

in in some places there

1:02:27

it different laws would you know

1:02:29

some of these some of these responses

1:02:31

to see our t ah and to

1:02:33

trans care read or a different

1:02:35

approaches that they could take that would

1:02:37

allow them to still be champions

1:02:40

of free speech it

1:02:42

and to enter also stand

1:02:44

up for their values there the

1:02:47

the i picked up with that's it that's a major dividing

1:02:49

line within the republican party is do we do

1:02:51

we wanna be can

1:02:53

a traditional libertarians

1:02:56

and you know laissez faire capitalism

1:02:59

what do we want be something else and

1:03:02

i don't think they've settled on the formula yet i'd be interested

1:03:04

year was using the i mean

1:03:06

i i think that

1:03:08

there is a a lot of appetite the culture

1:03:10

war right now by the right because the left is

1:03:12

pushed so far and so things that were not even

1:03:14

consider remotely controversial five seconds

1:03:16

who are now considered while the controversial so

1:03:18

the that the i'm very pro

1:03:20

free speech person i also

1:03:23

am not in favor of public schools

1:03:25

he can kid that orientation at

1:03:27

the age of five rows don't think that's inappropriate

1:03:29

things and so yeah think the data that

1:03:31

that the left by pushing so far my my my

1:03:33

theory basically here is that liberal got

1:03:35

so successful in the culture war that they didn't

1:03:37

know when to just say

1:03:41

we'll hope it turned into what's

1:03:43

the weather the weather our base out and when get our base out

1:03:45

his we have had next civil rights

1:03:47

movement readily we had he had black americans

1:03:49

excellent civil rights movement now we have game arrogance that's

1:03:52

next round of civil rights movement in any turned into

1:03:54

men believe that their women and people started

1:03:56

go the whole baptist know that in

1:03:58

a running up against natural hard realities

1:04:01

and the end when started saying

1:04:03

that it's not yet the

1:04:05

we want gay lesbian americans to be able to

1:04:07

live as they wish to live in free society we

1:04:10

want to mandate your children learn about

1:04:12

that value system for public school teacher

1:04:14

the that your business have to

1:04:18

basically enforce anti discrimination

1:04:20

laws that we feel are appropriate i think

1:04:22

you're you're now entering a went from me

1:04:24

was one the paths your home to you

1:04:27

will do what we want or we will burn you to ground

1:04:29

when that happened i think the right was suddenly

1:04:31

left disused swath of land

1:04:34

that could claim which was will leave alone because

1:04:36

gotta leave us alone is bet you have left us alone means

1:04:38

we can now buy back know i think there's a danger that

1:04:40

the right will go to bars of right will start saying

1:04:42

okay we're gonna carry the slag off way back to the

1:04:44

top of that mean that's where things

1:04:46

going by the fact that the left has become

1:04:49

so why are we radical on

1:04:51

his stuff so i it many of the prediction

1:04:53

that a lot of people were making about where

1:04:55

same sex marriage would end up which seen as completely

1:04:57

outlandish when when he for the kids were made in two thousand

1:05:00

forty thousand five they'll be effectively

1:05:02

advocated by the white house and and

1:05:04

that's yeah i think given

1:05:06

lot of grounds you too conservative

1:05:09

and to moderate people mean a lot

1:05:11

of listen that they the so called don't say

1:05:13

gable and for is widely popular with democrats

1:05:15

and skill florida for his again it was targeted

1:05:18

at

1:05:18

don't get to do this to kids you wanna do this when

1:05:20

you're adult fine you'll get to do this to kids the

1:05:23

watches pushed too far as i think that that

1:05:25

can be fertile ground until it is and i think that maybe the

1:05:27

message with politics right now everything is fertile ground

1:05:29

until the moment you pushed too far which kids becomes incredibly

1:05:32

inhospitable

1:05:33

interest quickly i know i covered the

1:05:35

the virginia governor's race

1:05:38

and you know election and glen young can

1:05:40

and and ah if democrats traditionally

1:05:43

have held anywhere from twenty to thirty

1:05:46

point lead on the education issue it's

1:05:48

one of reasons that they've always done so well

1:05:50

and congressional races because

1:05:54

this was an issue where they were overwhelmingly

1:05:56

trusted more than of hub republicans

1:05:58

were and you know

1:06:00

i but what i saw it

1:06:02

just seen that one county in virginia

1:06:05

i'm loving county was

1:06:07

this dramatic change in

1:06:10

where people from

1:06:12

south you did the politicians were

1:06:14

that they could trust they they they

1:06:17

saw the local democratic and a

1:06:19

party infrastructure as being

1:06:21

on side of this that

1:06:23

of non transparent cabal that was

1:06:25

trying to impose something

1:06:27

and the

1:06:29

the fastest way to lose support to get between

1:06:31

parents and their kids added yeah did

1:06:33

you see that in places

1:06:36

all over the country where he on now

1:06:38

if you look at the polls that

1:06:40

once thirty point lead and that wasn't that

1:06:42

long ago that was in the obama years it's

1:06:45

evaporated to three or four points

1:06:47

and think it's gonna keep going in that direction

1:06:49

and unless they unless they fix it

1:06:51

man pay the want ask you few file questions

1:06:54

style rolling with years years he show has

1:06:56

at continue and a wire he movie after style

1:06:59

often what as announced done for and from

1:07:01

his by and read done in of read from reviewed

1:07:04

like to here matt taibbi and happened

1:07:06

daily wire member has member to daily wire com flag

1:07:08

sunday

1:07:09

include that link in the episode descriptions use

1:07:11

called ben for twenty five percent off your the rest of

1:07:13

conversation there added matt

1:07:15

taibbi everyone make sure to check out math

1:07:17

subs taxi k news by matt ab

1:07:20

always wary get full access as teachers pounds

1:07:22

and creative writing math thanks so much for joining the shows

1:07:24

them pleasure or so much going for her men really

1:07:26

appreciated

1:07:33

it i

1:07:35

know she was executive

1:07:39

decision newborn hershey manager have

1:07:41

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1:07:43

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