0:00

Today's episode is brought to you by Slack.

0:02

Before there was podcast, there was radio,

0:05

Before that, the stage, and before

0:07

that. You get the idea. Things

0:09

evolve, Technology changes and

0:11

we do too. So now we can

0:13

listen to a show wherever, whenever.

0:16

However, why should our work

0:18

be any different? Why can't we work

0:20

with more freedom, more flexibility, more

0:22

choices. That's how Slack

0:24

works. It's a digital headquarters

0:26

that works how you work, and Slack

0:29

is where the future works. Hi,

0:33

everybody, I'm Rachel Banetta and I have my

0:35

very own podcast called Benched

0:38

with Banetta. You kidding me? I'm

0:40

just here so I won't get by. Every week,

0:42

I'm gonna be talking about all the things I find fascinating

0:45

about the NFL. And I'm doing something

0:47

that has never been done before. I'm

0:50

opening my d m s. D

0:53

ms now open, listen

0:57

every Tuesday and join me on the

0:59

bench. Subscribe now and listen

1:01

to the Bench with Bonetta podcast on the I Heart

1:04

Radio app, on Apple Podcasts or wherever

1:06

you get your podcasts. Check

1:09

out the new podcast I Am Kobe. Do

1:11

you want to understand how Kobe Bryant achieved

1:14

his unequal determination? How

1:16

did he come to his incredible passion to win.

1:19

In I Am Kobe, we reveal

1:21

intimate, never before heard tapes of

1:23

Kobe when he was a teenager, just as

1:25

he was starting to glimpse his own greatness.

1:28

It's about the making of an icon. We

1:30

weave together these tapes with Kobe's

1:32

high school coaches, his friends,

1:35

and the figures who knew him in his youth. All

1:37

episodes are out now so you can binge

1:39

the whole thing. Listen to I Am Kobe

1:42

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts

1:45

and wherever you get your podcasts.

1:51

Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I Heart

1:53

Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

2:01

welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert

2:04

Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back

2:06

with Part four of our exploration

2:08

of psychedelics. Robert, have we ever made it

2:10

to a part four on any series on this

2:12

show before? Oh?

2:14

I don't think we we have really.

2:17

I mean there have been cases where we've had, like an informal

2:19

series where each episode

2:21

is more or less self contained. So uh,

2:24

yeah, I don't know. I can't think of one off hand that

2:26

that has been a four partner. On the other

2:28

hand, we could have gone to eight parts on Dune

2:31

maybe well may yeah, certainly, they're

2:33

they're there's so many topics that we could

2:35

have divided up more, or

2:37

we could have uh dwelt

2:40

on in greater length. Uh you

2:42

know this one though, I mean the curious things. I feel like

2:44

we've gone in fairly deep, but we still

2:46

are are only providing like

2:48

basically a surface outline and everything

2:50

you know, and and leaving lots of room for

2:52

listeners to then to go out and explore

2:55

topics and portions of this topic and greater

2:57

depth. Well yeah, with rich subjects like psychedelics,

3:00

I guess, especially anything dealing with the mind,

3:03

you run into the problem that the deeper you go,

3:06

the more you uncover that you should you know,

3:08

like you're always just opening up more cases

3:10

instead of closing them. Right. It's it's

3:12

like saying we were gonna we're gonna do an episode on consciousness.

3:15

Yeah, yeah, it's you could sort

3:17

of do an outline episode of it, and I imagine

3:19

we've probably done episodes that are essentially

3:21

that in the past, but ultimately consciousness

3:24

is an ongoing series on this show,

3:27

and the same we said for a number of different topics.

3:29

But hey, if you're just jumping in, you should probably

3:31

go back listen to those other episodes. First,

3:33

we did uh Psychedelics Parts one

3:35

through three before this, where what do we

3:37

talk about, Robert, Well, we talked about what psychedelics

3:40

are and also what what drugs are.

3:43

We talked about how psychedelics

3:45

factor into traditional societies, how

3:47

they factor into ancient and modern history,

3:50

and ultimately how they factor into

3:52

both the hopes and fears that individuals

3:55

and groups of individuals have had for humanity's

3:57

future. Yeah, and so in the last episode

4:00

in part three, we focused a lot on the twentieth

4:02

century and how there was research

4:05

in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties

4:07

looking into how psychedelics could be used

4:09

in say, psychedelic assisted therapy for

4:11

treating conditions like alcoholism.

4:14

How a lot of psychiatrists in the nineteen

4:16

fifties saw its potential as what they considered

4:19

a psychoto memdic, meaning that it

4:21

would mimic the conditions of psychosis

4:24

that would allow them to empathize with their patients.

4:26

But then, of course it turned out to be something

4:29

rather different than just mimicking the effects

4:31

of psychosis. And then we talked about

4:33

sort of in the in the mid sixties to about

4:35

nineteen seventy, where the wave of crashed psychedelic

4:38

research encountered a lot of

4:40

backlash and for several decades it's

4:42

sort of was was forced into the underground,

4:45

and it's only in recent years that it's

4:48

experienced a resurgence. And that's what we're going

4:50

to focus on today. Yeah. Now, I do want to

4:52

throw into a quick note that I don't want to

4:54

leave anybody with the idea that all

4:56

psychedelic research ended with

4:58

Nixon's Control Substance Is Act of nineteen

5:00

seventy and then didn't pick up at all

5:03

until after the nineties. Right.

5:05

We've made that point in previous episodes, I think, but

5:07

that most of it had been driven underground.

5:09

Right. I was actually found a good source

5:11

and this has a nice visual for you know,

5:13

the ups and downs of the research with

5:16

the Beckley Foundation at Beckley

5:18

Foundation dot org. They have a nice overview,

5:21

a nice graphic. Now, this uh,

5:23

particular organization was founded in

5:26

by Amanda Fielding. I don't know if you remember Amanda

5:28

Fielding. Oh yeah, she uh. I think

5:30

she talks to Michael Pollen in his book How To

5:32

change your mind, which we've been referring to throughout the

5:35

past few episodes. I'm sure we'll refer to several

5:37

times again today. But she talks

5:39

to him, I think at some point and says something

5:41

like, look, I understand I have an image

5:44

problem. I'm a druggy with a hole in my

5:46

head. Right, she underwent Trepid Nation. We

5:48

have an episode in the that we did in the past

5:51

Entrepid Nation. But but the Foundation itself

5:53

is a UK based think tank, you

5:55

and accredited ng O, and it's

5:57

dedicated to global drug policy reform its

6:00

parchedelic research anyway, as

6:02

they point out, the Control

6:04

Substances Act of nineteen seventy effectively ended

6:07

all government sanctions psychedelic research

6:09

and brought everything down to a mere trickle um.

6:12

But you still had some research going on that the

6:14

lowest point identified um um

6:17

on this website is seemingly in the mid

6:19

nineties. That it was, you know, it was

6:21

also very low in like the mid eighties,

6:24

and now we're at the point where the research

6:26

is even surpassing the previous high point,

6:28

the previous heyday of the late

6:31

nineteen sixties. I've got an informal

6:33

theory that you will see an

6:35

almost perfect correlation in in

6:37

the twentieth century timeline between the

6:40

quantity and quality of action movies

6:43

produced by Hollywood and the lack of

6:45

psychedelic research being done.

6:48

It's like the year Speed came out, there can't

6:50

have been much psychedelic research going on. That's

6:53

that would be interesting to compare those timelines for sure.

6:55

Now, I thought maybe the first thing that would be good

6:57

to get into today is a question neurochemistry,

7:01

the question of what's actually

7:03

happening in the brains of people who

7:06

take psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin.

7:09

We've talked a lot about the the anecdotal

7:11

phenomenological reports people

7:14

have. You know, what, what do people commonly say

7:16

about their experiences on these drugs, But

7:18

what's causing them to have those experiences

7:21

chemically in the brain? Right, Because it's

7:23

all obviously going to come down to neurochemical

7:26

um in a situation. You know, the

7:28

magic mushrooms are not actually magic

7:31

h the machine, They're not actually

7:33

working on your mind. Uh, there's something

7:35

going on chemically inside the brain. Yes,

7:38

But to go back to another point we've made

7:40

repeatedly already is the importance

7:42

of set and setting uh psychopharmacology

7:45

should acknowledge that, especially with some

7:47

drugs, psychedelics being some of them,

7:49

that the context

7:52

is going to highly influence what the

7:54

chemicals due to the brain, and that in

7:56

many ways these chemicals should be thought of

7:58

as um not necessary really the cause

8:01

of particular experiences, but facilitators

8:04

of experience of varying degrees

8:07

of intensity. Uh So,

8:09

these psychoactive compounds are, of course different

8:12

from one another. LST is not exactly psilocybin,

8:14

psilocybin is not exactly d MT, and

8:16

so forth. Uh So what's found

8:19

about one doesn't necessarily apply to all

8:21

of them, but there do appear to be some important

8:23

chemical similarities in the brain. And

8:26

so I want to talk about serotonin

8:28

and serotonin receptors. On the

8:30

neurochemical level, there appears to

8:32

be this really important connection between certain

8:35

psychedelics and the endogenous neurotransmitter

8:38

serotonin. Serotonin is also known

8:40

as five hydroxy trip to ME and

8:42

the role of serotonin in the brain and the body

8:45

is fantastically complex

8:47

and still not fully understood, and

8:49

I think partially because of its role

8:52

in the history of research on mood and

8:54

depression, Serotonin is often

8:56

thought of as an internal chemical that

8:58

creates happiness sort positive

9:00

mood, such that if you don't have

9:03

enough of it you get depressed. But

9:05

I think it turns out that this is a monumentally

9:08

oversimplified and largely incorrect

9:11

view. The most commonly prescribed

9:13

antidepressant drugs these days are

9:15

s s R EYES, which stands for selective

9:18

serotonin reuptake inhibitors,

9:20

and what they do is they block the reabsorption

9:23

of serotonin in the brain, increasing

9:26

serotonin levels overall. But

9:28

we shouldn't draw the wrong conclusions from

9:30

this. It is not simply a case

9:32

that more serotonin equals

9:34

more happiness or more serotonin

9:37

equals less depression. In fact,

9:39

ending up with too much serotonin due to drug

9:41

interactions can cause a potentially fatal

9:43

condition known as serotonin syndrome. Right.

9:46

One key interactive interaction of

9:49

where it can occur is is with ayahuasca

9:51

and certain antidepressants. Yeah, which

9:54

is a reason that is often stated

9:56

like you should be very careful if

9:58

you are engaging in know and what's

10:00

some code called freelance um

10:03

therapeutic psychedelic use. Well, yeah, exactly.

10:06

I mean that's one of the things that we alluded

10:08

to. And I guess we'll talk about more as the episode goes on,

10:10

is that even though we've established

10:12

that psychedelics have relatively low

10:14

recognized risk when compared to many

10:17

other drugs, it's not impossible for them to represent

10:20

risks, especially when you think about how they

10:22

may interact with existing psychological

10:25

conditions or other drugs that you might

10:27

be taking. Right. So, back to serotonin. While

10:29

serotonin does seem highly involved

10:32

in the internal regulation of mood,

10:34

it's mechanism is somewhat

10:36

complicated, and it's also involved

10:39

in a number of other processes throughout the body

10:41

and brain that aren't directly related to mood,

10:43

at least as far as we know. For example, digestion,

10:46

the like the vast majority of the body, serotonin

10:49

is found in the gastro intestinal tract, and

10:51

it has something to do with the regulation

10:53

of bowel movements. I'm sure some

10:55

comedian out there has a great joke about

10:57

like their depression slash

11:00

owl movements serotonin thing. I don't

11:02

know, I haven't put it together in my head, but run

11:04

with it somebody. Uh. But serotonin

11:06

also has a lot of other uses in the body.

11:08

It apparently, somehow seems linked to the regulation

11:11

of sleep, to bone metabolism,

11:13

so you know, like the creation of the osteoblasts

11:16

and osteogenesis, uh, sexual

11:18

arousal, blood clotting. So

11:20

there's a lot of stuff going on. And according

11:23

to the psychedelic researcher Robin L.

11:25

Carhart Harris, who's going to show up in research

11:27

that we will talk about later, quote,

11:29

a compelling unified theory of brain serotonin

11:32

function has not yet been established.

11:35

This is likely due to the exceptional complexity

11:37

of the serotonin system, with its

11:39

fourteen plus receptors,

11:42

over twice the number identified for

11:44

any of the other major neuromodular

11:46

systems. So there are a lot of different

11:49

basically holes in the body and the

11:51

brain for that molecule to put its

11:53

peg into, and they probably

11:55

all do slightly different things or

11:57

maybe largely different things. Never

12:00

unless it is clear that serotonin plays

12:02

some important role in psychiatric

12:05

disorders like depression, and

12:07

one recent theory I thought this was pretty interesting.

12:09

It's probably not conclusive. Again, we don't

12:11

have a agreed upon the theory of

12:13

serotonin yet, but one recent theory

12:16

is that, in Carhart Harris's words, seratinergic

12:19

processes are important for quote

12:21

mediating an individual's sensitivity

12:24

to context. So you

12:26

know, serotonin might play this important role

12:28

in the brain for like increasing the

12:31

salience of contextual

12:33

things in the environment. But

12:36

where does psychedelics come in. So what

12:38

happens is the classic psychedelics

12:40

appear to bind to a

12:42

specific subclass of serotonin

12:45

receptor known as the serotonin

12:47

to A receptor, and these receptors

12:50

are found concentrated in the human cortex.

12:52

The cortex is the outer layer of the cerebrum

12:55

the brain, which is associated with a lot

12:57

of higher brain functions like sensation.

13:00

Uh, you know, the visual cortex, the auditory

13:02

cortex, it's associated you know, it's where

13:04

you have centers for speech and language, for

13:06

voluntary action and stuff like

13:08

that. So when you take a psychedelic

13:11

like LSD R psilocybin mushrooms,

13:13

the active compounds make their way into

13:16

the brain and they sort of play act

13:18

as serotonin binding to these serotonin

13:20

to A receptors. Now,

13:23

because we have such a limited grasp

13:25

of the role of serotonin to begin with, we

13:27

don't fully know how to interpret the

13:30

neurochemistry here, like what's happening

13:32

with the serotonin too A receptors that's

13:34

associated with or creating this psychedelic

13:37

experience. But Robin Carhart

13:39

Harris hypothesizes something really

13:41

interesting. So Carhard Harris says that

13:43

quote serotonin differentially

13:46

encodes behavioral and physiological

13:48

responses to uncertainty.

13:51

So under this model, you have like another serotonin

13:53

receptor, a different one, the serotonin one

13:56

A receptor, and Carhart's Harris

13:58

says, quote that provides bay soul

14:00

control during normal conditions

14:02

be a moderating emotion and anxiety

14:05

and promoting a generalized patience.

14:07

But the two A receptor,

14:10

which psychedelics have these agonist properties

14:12

for you, the psychedelics go in the two A receptor.

14:15

Quote is hypothesized to engage

14:17

more during conditions of crisis

14:20

when the above mentioned default mechanism

14:22

becomes suboptimal e g. When

14:24

an individual's internal and or external

14:27

milieu become so changeable

14:30

and or inconsistent with his or her

14:32

prior beliefs and behaviors

14:34

that significant revisions become

14:36

mandated. In other words,

14:38

Carhart Harris is hypothesizing that psychedelics

14:41

provide a neurochemical hyper stimulation

14:44

two receptors in the brain that normally

14:46

work during situations of crisis

14:49

and change to quote relax

14:51

prior assumptions or beliefs held

14:54

at multiple levels of the brain's functional

14:56

hierarchy perceptually, emotionally,

14:59

cognitive, lee, and philosophically e

15:01

g. In terms of biases. In

15:03

so doing, it opens a door to heighten

15:06

sensitivity to context, an ideal

15:08

precondition for effective change.

15:11

So that was really interesting to me. Like,

15:13

to be clear, we still don't know if this hypothesis

15:16

of what's happening is correct, but

15:18

it seems informed by what we do know about serotonin

15:21

receptors and about the neurochemistry of psychedelics,

15:24

And I guess the idea is that they sort

15:26

of mash frantically at

15:28

buttons in the brain that naturally,

15:31

when pressed, caused the brain

15:33

to break internal habits, associations,

15:35

and traditions at every level, from

15:37

the senses to the beliefs.

15:40

Interesting so in the same way that a basically

15:43

like a traumatic experience can change

15:45

or alter our our our

15:48

preconceptions about the world, or

15:50

in the same way that glimpsing something

15:53

marvelous like seeing the Grand Canyon

15:55

for the first time might have

15:58

some at least minor change the way you

16:00

think about about the natural world,

16:03

Like the the psychedelic state

16:05

is kind of um, like leaning into

16:08

those uh uh, those

16:10

kind of experiences though that the facilitate

16:13

change. I think that's right according

16:15

to this hypothesis at least, And this does seem

16:17

to ring true to me based on everything else we've read.

16:20

Uh, it's kind of like how I think we've talked about this

16:22

on the show before, how it really seems

16:24

like it's easier to break habits

16:27

or make changes in your life while

16:29

you're on vacation or we

16:31

in in any other kind of It doesn't have

16:34

to be just vacation. While you're external

16:36

contextual circumstances are different.

16:39

You know, you're faced with a different environment,

16:41

different stimuli, maybe you're meeting different people,

16:44

you're facing different challenges or problems.

16:46

That seems to give rise to processes

16:49

in the brain that makes us better at

16:51

changing what we've done and how we've been

16:53

before. And it makes sense, right because if

16:55

we as an organism, we change location,

16:57

we change what, we change set, and you

17:00

know, we we end up having to update

17:02

our priorities and our our judgments

17:05

about where we are and ultimately who

17:07

we are. And so it seems like

17:09

under this hypothesis, psychedelics

17:11

maybe doing something like that,

17:14

but in an even more intense and chemically

17:17

focused way right, And

17:20

yeah, it's interesting and in

17:22

a way that does not necessarily require

17:25

an experience of trauma, um or

17:27

or some sort of you know, tremendous

17:30

physical travel. Well, but there are interesting

17:32

parallels to trauma. I mean, again, this

17:35

is something that's very common in the report, so that,

17:37

like we've read about with the participants of the

17:39

March Chapel experiment, Uh, people

17:42

very often report having

17:44

some kind of experience of dying

17:46

or going through some great trauma during

17:49

their trip, and yet after their trip

17:51

on the whole, they report positive effects

17:53

and changes in their mindset and in their life.

17:55

So I don't think we should necessarily

17:57

discount the relationship to trauma

18:00

there. There may be sort of not

18:03

physical traumas, but but emotional

18:05

and psychological traumas that gets simulated

18:07

or run through in the brain during the psychedelic

18:10

experience. Yeah, I mean, so

18:12

many of these accounts that we've read or you

18:14

know, acquainted ourselves with, they

18:17

do involve at least a challenging

18:19

portion of the overall trip.

18:21

Maybe the trip itself is not a quote unquote

18:24

bad trip, uh, because

18:26

again that's that's kind of disingenuous

18:28

to get into the idea of like purely a good trip

18:30

bad trip scenario. Um

18:32

so yeah, so much of the time there is a

18:35

you know, for lack of a better word, a monster. But sometimes

18:38

you have to defeat a monster, right, I mean

18:40

it's it's it's kind of the old hero's

18:42

journey. Well, this is one of the things that's commonly

18:45

reported by psychedelic guides, people who

18:47

do psychedelic assisted therapy that

18:50

Michael Paulan talks about this and how to Change Your Mind

18:52

a good bit about UH. One

18:54

effective strategy of guiding people

18:57

through their meditative experience on

18:59

psychedelic is to encourage

19:01

them to approach challenging experiences

19:04

in their minds. So if you know they're faced

19:06

with something that scares them, don't run

19:09

away from it, go toward it. And

19:11

this actually tends to cause people to have very empowering

19:13

experiences of discovery. I'm

19:15

reminded of the the original ending to

19:18

Alan Moore's v for Vendetta. I don't know if you ever

19:20

read the comic book. I don't believe saw

19:22

the movie, but yeah, I don't think I don't think this made

19:24

it into the film. But in in the book

19:27

there's an individual who ends up like

19:30

taking LSD I believe it was LSD

19:33

and visiting the side of you know

19:35

what is essentially like like a labor

19:37

camp or uh, in order

19:39

to like fully process, like,

19:42

you know, the state of the world and his relationship

19:44

with it. Really more of a like a shamanistic

19:48

um kind of psychedla

19:50

delic encounter, but one that is intentionally

19:54

traumatic because the character feels

19:56

that they must they must confront something

19:58

that is troubling and traumatic in

20:00

their life. Yeah, I think there could very well

20:02

be uses like that that are

20:05

that are legitimate and take best advantage

20:08

of the psychopharmacology at work here. All

20:10

right, on that note, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll

20:12

be right back. Today's

20:14

episode is brought to you by Slack. Before

20:17

there was podcast, there was radio, Before

20:20

that, the stage and before that. You

20:22

get the idea. Things evolve, technology

20:25

changes, and we do too. So

20:27

now we can listen to a show wherever, whenever.

20:30

However, why should our work

20:32

be any different? Why can't we work

20:34

with more freedom, more flexibility, more

20:36

choices. That's how Slack

20:38

works. It's a digital headquarters

20:41

that works how you work, and Slack

20:43

is where the future works. I'm

20:48

Jake Calbern, host of deep Cover.

20:51

Our new season is about a lawyer who

20:53

helped the mob run Chicago. We

20:55

control the courts, we controlled absolutely

20:58

everything. He brought judges

21:00

and even helped a hit man walk free, until

21:03

one day when he started talking with the FBI

21:06

and promised that he could take the mob

21:08

down. I've spent the past year

21:10

trying to figure out why he flipped and what

21:12

he was really after. From my perspective,

21:15

Bob was too good to be true. There's got to

21:17

be something wrong with this. I wouldn't

21:19

trust that guy. He looks like a little

21:21

scum bag layer still Bidgeon. He looked

21:23

like what he was or at I can say

21:25

with all certainty I think he's a hero because

21:28

he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway.

21:30

The moment I put the wire around the first

21:32

time, my life was over. If

21:35

it ever got out, they would kill me. In the heartbeat,

21:38

listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app,

21:40

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get

21:42

your podcasts. The

21:48

Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation

21:50

that revolves around underworld, the

21:52

criminals and entertainers. To victim of his crime

21:55

and law enforcement. We cover all facets

21:57

of the game. Gangster Chronicles podcast

21:59

does glorifier for motilicit activities.

22:02

We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions

22:04

of these activities because that the law. If

22:06

you played gamester games who are ultimately rewarded

22:09

with Gangster prizes. Our Heart Radios

22:11

number one for podcasts, but don't take

22:13

our word for it. Find Against the Chronicles

22:15

podcast and I Heart Radio app or wherever

22:18

you get your podcast. Okay,

22:23

we're back. So we've been talking about the

22:25

neurochemical action of

22:28

psychedelics and and some ideas

22:30

about what may be going on in the brain there with

22:32

their relationship to a certain

22:34

serotonin receptor of the serotonin two

22:36

A receptor. But there are also

22:39

ways of going beyond the neurochemical level

22:41

and just looking at the neurological effects of psychedelics

22:43

through brain imaging studies. Right yeah,

22:46

I mean, nothing spells good

22:48

trip more than getting somebody

22:50

on psilocybin and sticking them in

22:52

an fMRI machine. Right, But you can't.

22:54

I mean, I wonder what those subjective experiences

22:57

are like. Surely somebody has studied that, Like asking

22:59

for the uh, the experiential reports

23:01

of people have been in the fm R I, But I mean

23:04

the studies are are quite useful looking at

23:06

where, you know, where does the blood flow change,

23:08

what, what's receiving oxygen in the brain.

23:11

Pollen talks about this at length in his book.

23:13

One of the most interesting things is that psychedelics

23:17

apparently tend to

23:19

reduce activity in

23:21

one of the most interesting networks of the brain,

23:23

which is the default mode network.

23:28

Well, normally you'd be thinking, okay, psychedelics

23:30

must be causing increased activity

23:33

somewhere right, But here it's fascinating

23:35

to see where, you know, the brain may

23:37

be empowered by suppressing certain

23:40

parts of it. So the default mode

23:42

network is a brain subsystem we've talked

23:44

about before. It involves different

23:46

regions all over the brain. So it's not just like one

23:48

little node somewhere you know, it's happening all over.

23:50

But it's a set of interlinked

23:52

and and related nodes

23:55

of the brain that work together. And it's normally

23:58

believed to be most active when we

24:00

are not engaged in any other particular

24:02

task. It seems to be highly associated

24:04

with an idol wandering mind. But

24:08

it is not only active when

24:10

we're mentally unoccupied. It's not only

24:12

when our mind is wandering or idle, that we use

24:14

the default mode network. Activation of the default

24:16

mode network is associated with

24:18

many kinds of deliberate thought processes,

24:21

especially self referential

24:24

thought processes, so like autobiographical

24:27

and self evaluative thinking. The

24:30

default mode network seems highly involved in

24:32

knowing facts about yourself

24:35

and in understanding and evaluating

24:37

characterizations of yourself. If I

24:39

give you a list of adjectives and

24:41

ask you to think how they apply to

24:44

you, we will probably see activation

24:46

and regions of the brain that are associated

24:49

with the primary activity of the default mode

24:51

network. Right, and pretty much anytime

24:53

you catch yourself thinking,

24:55

contemplating, worrying

24:57

over who you are and how others

25:00

perceive you. Uh, this is the network

25:02

that is in play, right Uh.

25:04

The default mode network also seems to be associated

25:06

with forms of meta cognition, so

25:08

like reflecting on your own emotional

25:11

states and thought processes, which

25:13

this in itself, I mean not to really

25:15

categorize any of these isn't isn't is

25:18

good or bad, but but certainly

25:20

metacognition in and of itself. Being able to think about

25:22

your emotions and be self aware, I mean, it's

25:24

a uh, it is worth pointing out, yeah

25:26

that even though it's a lot of worrying

25:29

is caught up in the default mode network.

25:32

You can argue then that a certain amount

25:34

of our ability to to stop and

25:37

uh and think about how we're thinking is also

25:39

tied up there. Sure, I mean, yeah, the default mode

25:41

network is I mean, it's quite clear

25:43

we have it for a reason, right. It probably it

25:45

does something useful for us. It

25:47

probably just comes with a lot of downsides

25:50

too. It probably allows

25:52

us to be philosophical and

25:54

to you know, to do a lot of stuff that we value

25:56

about human culture and human mental abilities.

25:59

But it just also tends to be highly

26:01

involved in ruminating on what's

26:03

wrong with yourself and the world

26:06

and your life and all that. Right, And the

26:08

next example is a key example

26:10

of this. Well, yeah, so the defaultment network

26:12

seems to be highly associated with mental time

26:14

travel, thinking about things that happened

26:17

in the past and episodic memories

26:19

of those things and then imagining

26:21

events in the future, which is all this

26:23

is key if we're going to to

26:25

navigate the world, be at

26:27

the world that we've built for ourselves or even just the natural

26:30

world. Uh, you need to

26:32

be able to we need to be able to to mental time

26:34

travel, to to think about the lessons we've

26:36

learned and prepare for the challenges ahead.

26:39

But of course, as humans, we take

26:41

this too ridiculous extremes and we get

26:43

trapped in the past or trapped in the

26:45

future, and uh, everything

26:47

that is between those points is just stretched

26:50

out to the point of writting. Well, to mention

26:52

rumination again as a you know, psychological

26:54

phenomenon, rumination in

26:57

a way, a positive version of it

26:59

could be thinking about plans

27:01

for the future, trying to think through what you should

27:03

do and figure out the best thing to do. That's an

27:05

important skill that we have with

27:07

our brains. But also that

27:10

leads to people just imagining,

27:12

you know, like recursive thought patterns of the

27:15

way all the ways things could go wrong in horrible

27:17

ways that are not actually useful.

27:20

Right, well, I mean and ultimately too, it's you

27:22

know, the idea of pursuit of happiness, the idea

27:24

that we should be happy. That's um,

27:27

you know, that's that's a that's also a human complication,

27:30

right, It's really part of the evolutionary

27:32

model, right. I would guess one of the easiest

27:35

ways to make yourself unhappy is

27:37

to try really hard to be happy

27:40

or to think about how to make yourself happy.

27:43

Absolutely, I remember moments of the

27:45

purest joy are going to be the times when we're not

27:48

actively seeking and grasping for it.

27:50

Yeah. Another thing that seems to

27:52

be associated with the default

27:54

mode network is thinking about other people. It's

27:56

important for theory of mind, so imagining

27:59

the mental states of others, trying I'm

28:01

thinking, what is Robert thinking? That's

28:04

theory of mind. But then also in making

28:06

judgments and evaluations about other

28:08

people. Yeah, and of course this is this.

28:11

This is one of those things that's involved in some

28:13

of the noblest and most sought after

28:15

human experiences. You know, this is

28:17

in this is tied up in in

28:19

in love and UH and

28:21

and family, but it's also caught up

28:23

in like the worst inclinations

28:25

of humanity as well. Yeah, and so

28:28

the default mode network, we've bashed

28:30

it before, but obviously it's not

28:32

bad. And I guess this is sort of a sidetrack,

28:35

But I have read somewhere that the concept

28:37

of the default mode network is one coherent

28:40

brain subsystem has been criticized or

28:42

challenged by somebody. So no, I think not all

28:44

UH neuroscientists would accept that the

28:46

default mode network is actually a coherent

28:49

network, but right, like a lot of these

28:51

things, it lends itself to being

28:54

used as a mere metaphor for making sense

28:56

of our our environmental processes,

28:59

and in a similar way that serotonin

29:01

can be sort of misinterpreted, is you

29:04

know, but but perhaps perhaps,

29:06

but perhaps I think that the default mode network, if

29:08

it, if it is being misused as metaphor uh,

29:10

some of the times or even a lot of the times by people,

29:13

maybe it's a little more useful or at least

29:15

less harmful and metaphor. Well, I do

29:17

think it's still largely accepted within

29:20

neuroscience, you know, but I'm not talking about

29:22

it like it's not

29:24

being you know, a valid theory, but

29:26

more like when I when I'm engaging

29:29

with it, Like to what extent am I engaging with it

29:31

as a metaphor for how my mind? Oh? Yeah,

29:33

I see, yeah yeah, um, but yeah,

29:35

yeah. I mean, it's just so interesting that

29:38

this would be a major effective psychedelics

29:40

on the brain, the suppression of

29:42

activity in the default mode network, Like

29:45

could it be that suppression of activity

29:48

in the default mode network, which is so largely

29:50

focused on the self and metacognition

29:53

and thinking about the past and future and the

29:55

evaluation of self. That this

29:58

suppression is what CAU causes

30:00

all these subjective reports of ego

30:03

loss or ego dissolution on psycho

30:05

psychedelics boundary dissolution.

30:07

Yeah, and again, if you don't remember

30:10

from we talked about it in the first episode

30:12

of the series, ego loss or ego suppression

30:14

is one of the most interesting common reports

30:16

of people, especially on higher doses of psychedelics.

30:19

And the best way to I mean, that's kind of inherently

30:22

ineffable, but the best way to describe

30:25

it, I guess, is the experience

30:27

of having experience without

30:30

a self, to have the experience or

30:32

of sort of being without being

30:34

an eye or a me. And of course,

30:37

isn't it interesting that we also encountered this

30:39

in dream as well, except

30:41

maybe not that first night of sleep in a new

30:43

location. I remember study that came out several

30:46

years ago that that pointed out that

30:48

what do you see, uh, with increased

30:50

activity on that first night of slumber

30:52

in a new location the default mode network.

30:55

Oh so you're dreaming with a higher,

30:57

higher state of awareness of self and self

30:59

other distinctions, right, or at least it's

31:02

too revved up to allow like a proper night's

31:04

sleep to take place. So

31:07

yeah, so the ego loss thing definitely

31:09

suffers from ineff ineff ability.

31:11

But to whatever extent we can understand it,

31:13

it seems to involve a a reduction

31:16

or loss in the sense of self

31:18

as a distinct other, separate from

31:20

the rest of the universe or from nature, or

31:23

from whatever is being observed. It's kind

31:25

of ego loss is pure experience

31:27

without a me. And so I guess

31:29

you can see if if the default mode network

31:31

is being suppressed, the default mode network does all

31:34

the stuff we're just talking about, that may

31:36

be what's active there. And it's also worth pointing out

31:38

that there are studies showing that meditation

31:40

tends to reduce activity in the default

31:43

mode network. Absolutely. We've talked about some

31:45

of the research on the show before, and as we discussed

31:47

in previous episodes, there are some strong parallels

31:49

between the psychedelic experience caused by drugs

31:52

and the you know, the experience of master

31:54

meditators or people who achieve you

31:56

know, like the greatest points

31:58

of I don't know what you call it, the peaks of

32:01

conscious experience as as

32:03

sought after by by meditation, like mindfulness

32:05

and stuff. Oh yeah, I mean it comes back

32:07

again to this idea that metacognition is

32:10

part of the default mode network. It's like, yes, you can,

32:12

you can potentially turn to pharmaceutical and

32:15

pharmacological keys to

32:17

the to the locks that that

32:20

imprison you. But also the key

32:22

is already in the cell like that, the key is

32:24

is present arguably

32:26

within the default mode network itself. The

32:29

one thing at least seems to me, I

32:31

mean, you're much more experienced with meditation

32:33

than I am, is that the meditation

32:35

route seems to take a lot of work, right,

32:38

Like it takes a lot of practice and people

32:40

can't always necessarily get there on their own.

32:43

Um yeah, I mean it does. But

32:46

then again I think I think one of them

32:48

I'm not trying to knock it, but no, no, no, But I think the

32:50

other side is that, like we have to drive home that

32:52

with um, with psychedelics

32:54

like that, you know, again the importance of set and setting

32:57

and intention that this is not

33:00

necessarily the easy road either.

33:02

I mean, it does seem to be the case that with with

33:04

psychedelics you can you can induce

33:07

a state like this, uh

33:09

a lot quicker. But at

33:12

the same time, it's not it's

33:14

it's not easy. It's just not like hitting the Nirvana

33:16

switch on somebody's brain. Uh

33:19

and uh. And there's gonna be a certain amount

33:21

of work involved there, and there's gonna be there're

33:24

gonna be some risks. Well, maybe we should talk

33:26

about what the science says about

33:28

those risks when we come back from another

33:30

break. Hello, and welcome

33:32

to our show. I'm Zoie de Channel and I'm so

33:34

excited to be joined by my friends and cast

33:36

mates Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris

33:38

to recap our hit television series

33:41

New Girl. Join us every Monday on

33:43

the Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll

33:45

share behind the scenes stories of your favorite

33:47

New Girl episodes, revealed the truth behind

33:49

the legendary game True American, and discuss

33:52

how this show got made with the writer's, guest

33:54

stars and directors who made the show so special.

33:57

Fans have been begging us to do a New Girl

33:59

recap years, and we finally meet

34:01

a podcast where we answer all your

34:03

burning questions like is there

34:05

really a bear in every episode

34:07

of New Girl? Plus each week you'll

34:10

hear hilarious stories like this at

34:12

the end when he says you got some Schmidt on your

34:14

face. I feel like I pitched

34:16

that joke. I believe that I feel like I did.

34:19

I'm not on a thousand percent. I want to say that was I

34:21

tossed that without Listen to the Welcome to

34:23

Our Show podcast on the I Heard Radio app,

34:26

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

34:28

your podcasts. Hello,

34:31

Hello, Hey. I don't know if you heard,

34:33

but my podcast Checking It

34:35

has been nominated for the d a CP

34:38

Image Award in the category of Outstanding

34:40

Lifestyle and Self Help Podcast.

34:43

I'm grateful for the nomination. I

34:45

I almost didn't even do a podcast because I

34:47

was just wandering there are thousands of podcasts

34:50

out there and why is my voice

34:52

needed. But a nomination from

34:54

the end of a CP lets me know that

34:57

I made the right choice, and I encourage you

34:59

to do don't orient. There are thousands

35:01

of something else that you want to do.

35:04

No nobody has your sauce, so listen.

35:06

You can still vote. Go to vote dot a

35:08

CP Image Awards dot net. You have until

35:10

February five, um nine pm

35:12

Eastern Standard time, and please

35:15

listen to my podcast. We're part of the Black

35:17

Effect podcast Network on the I Heart Radio

35:19

app or wherever you get your podcast. Thank

35:22

you for checking gare. This

35:32

is Roxanne Gay, host of The Roxanne

35:34

Gay Agenda, The Bad Feminist Podcast

35:36

of Your Dreams. Now what

35:39

is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask.

35:42

It's a podcast where I'm going to speak

35:44

my mind about what's on my mind,

35:46

and that could be anything. Every

35:49

week I will be in conversation with

35:51

an interesting person who has something

35:53

to say. We're going to talk about feminism,

35:56

race, writing in books, and art,

35:58

food, pop culture, and yes, politics.

36:01

I started show with a recommendation.

36:04

Really, I'm just going to share with you a

36:06

movie or a book, or maybe some

36:08

music or a comedy set, something that I

36:11

really want you to be aware of

36:13

and maybe engage with as well. Listen

36:15

to the luminary original podcasts of

36:18

the Roxanne Gay Agenda, The Bad

36:20

Feminist Podcast of Your Dreams, every

36:23

Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

36:25

Podcasts or wherever you get

36:27

your podcasts.

36:31

Than all right, we're

36:33

back. So we've We've spoken a lot

36:36

on this show in these episodes

36:38

about like particular examples of

36:40

individuals taking a psychedelic substance

36:43

and having some sort of mind altering

36:45

experience, life altering experience.

36:48

But we haven't really talked about any of the sort

36:50

of uh, you know, cautionary

36:53

tales of the psychedelic experience,

36:55

for one part, because those stories

36:58

are pretty prevalent in our culture

37:01

due to the backlash and the moral panic

37:03

surrounding psychedelics. But but I

37:05

but I did think it would be helpful at this point in

37:07

the episode to focus briefly on

37:09

one example, UM, and

37:11

that would be I think one of the more famous

37:13

examples of

37:15

of of of psychosis,

37:17

schizophrenia, schizzo effective disorder

37:20

being linked to the psychedelic experience, to

37:22

the consumption of a psychedelic substance, Beach

37:24

Boys co founder Brian Wilson um

37:27

UH brilliant musician, but has

37:30

also lived with schizo effective disorder

37:32

since the mid sixties, with his symptoms

37:34

reportedly remote emerging shortly

37:37

after he took LSD and

37:39

after after he had taken it. After these symptoms

37:41

began to emerge, he would he ended up

37:43

having to struggle with auditory hallucinations

37:46

from that point on, still struggles

37:48

with them today, I understand now.

37:51

At the same time, it's worth noting that he's had a lot of

37:53

positive things to say about the spiritual and

37:55

creative influence of psychedelics.

37:57

But his case does seem to stand

37:59

as a cautionary tale of psychedelic

38:02

how psychedelics can affect someone with a predisposition

38:05

for schizophrenia or schizoeffective

38:07

disorder, or at least the

38:09

perception that they could have played a role

38:11

there. I mean, because I think we still don't

38:13

know for sure exactly what that interaction

38:16

is. But it does. It does not, but

38:18

but it is. It's certainly it seems real

38:20

enough that everyone mentions it and

38:23

urges everyone to exercise caution in

38:25

that area. If you do have a, say,

38:27

a family history of schizophrenia.

38:29

Absolutely, I mean, I'm all for exercising

38:32

caution. We I think we've said this in every

38:34

episode before, but we do want

38:36

to reiterate that we are just trying to be descriptive

38:38

in these episodes. We're not telling you that you should

38:41

take psychedelics. That's a decision you can only

38:43

make on your own and hopefully

38:45

in the with the consultation of a medical professional

38:48

and like learning, doing your own

38:50

research and all that kind of stuff. So you

38:52

should make sure that if you are going

38:54

to go down this path, you understand the risks

38:56

for yourself and you do all the digging you need to

38:58

do there. Now, it does seem

39:01

to be the case that there are plenty of reports

39:03

of of experiences on psychedelics

39:06

being timed to make it seem

39:08

as if they have triggered symptoms in people

39:10

with a predisposition for psychosis, and

39:13

of course psychosis we should probably define

39:15

that. I found a good definition by the

39:17

National Alliance on Mental Illness that

39:19

psychosis is quote disruptions to a

39:21

person's thoughts and perceptions

39:24

that make it difficult for them to recognize

39:26

what is real and what isn't um

39:29

and so so psychosis is a symptom, not

39:31

a disease. It's a symptom of conditions

39:33

like schizophreniaand schizo effective disorder.

39:36

But the I think an important

39:38

thing to emphasize there is that psychosis

39:40

is understood as as causing problems

39:43

recognizing reality, which is not necessarily

39:46

the same as the kinds

39:48

of experiences the perceptual disturbances

39:50

that people might have on psychedelics

39:52

where you can see things but you in

39:55

many cases know that they're not really

39:57

physically present. But I guess the question

39:59

is, is there any empirical evidence about

40:02

whether the use of psychedelics actually causes

40:05

psychosis. Uh, there's

40:07

a little bit. So I was reading a news

40:09

feature for the journal Nature by Zoe

40:11

Cormier which pointed to two

40:13

different studies from recent years

40:16

finding no link between psychedelic

40:18

use and symptoms of psychosis

40:20

or other mental health complaints.

40:22

So these studies are not necessarily definitive, but

40:24

this is what the evidence, at least as measured

40:27

here, seems to indicate. So the first study

40:29

was published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology

40:31

and by Johansson

40:33

and Crebs called Psychedelics

40:35

not Linked to mental health problems or suicidal

40:38

behavior of population study. Here

40:40

the authors reviewed survey data from

40:42

a huge population study comprising

40:45

more than a hundred and thirty five thousand adults

40:47

in the United States, and the cross

40:49

checked the use of LSD, psilocybin,

40:52

and mescalin. So the study only applies

40:54

to those three drugs, not necessarily to others.

40:56

Uh. Those three drugs versus reports

40:59

of mental health problems. Uh.

41:01

And I should know that almost twenty

41:03

thousand of the roughly a hundred and thirty

41:05

five thousand adults in study had to use

41:07

psychedelics, so that's about fourteen percent. They

41:10

found no correlation. Quote

41:12

after adjusting for sociodemographics

41:14

other drug use in childhood depression, we

41:17

found no significant associations

41:19

between lifetime use of psychedelics

41:21

and increased likelihood of past year serious

41:23

psychological distress, mental health

41:26

treatment, suicidal thoughts, suicidal

41:28

plans, and suicide attempt, depression,

41:30

and anxiety. We failed to find evidence

41:33

that psychedelic use is an independent risk

41:35

factor for mental health problems,

41:37

so that's one thing now. On the other

41:39

hand, Coromier's article also cites

41:41

an interview with Charles Grobe, a pediatric

41:44

psychiatrist at the University of California,

41:46

Los Angeles, who is also an advocate

41:49

for some use of psychedelics in certain clinical

41:51

settings, and Grobe seems

41:53

generally encouraged by these findings, but warns

41:55

that we shouldn't conclude that there are no risks

41:58

and says that individual cases of negative

42:01

effects from psychedelic use do occur.

42:03

One example, he gives his hallucinogen

42:06

persisting perception disorder or

42:08

hp p D, which is

42:10

sometimes described as like the never ending

42:12

trip. It involves like repeated

42:15

or incessant or invasive disturbances

42:17

of the visual field or shimmering lights

42:20

or seeing dots or something. Also

42:22

known as acid flashbacks if you will,

42:25

Uh, Grob gives a quote saying,

42:27

quote, I've seen a number of people with the symptoms

42:29

following a psychedelic experience, and it can be

42:31

a very serious condition. Right.

42:34

Uh. You know, we have an older episode

42:36

from years back on this that I think was based

42:38

in part of a two thousand thirteen study, and

42:41

if I remember correctly, that study

42:43

found that, you know, it's that it was extremely

42:45

rare, uh and in a large part

42:47

blown out of proportion by anti drug

42:49

messaging, because of course that was part of the

42:51

moral panic, because that everyone's going to take LSD

42:54

then they're going to You're either gonna force yourself

42:56

through a keyhole or you're gonna deal with acid

42:58

flashbacks the rest of your life. Uh, or

43:00

it's going to be the Blue Sunshine scenario. Right. But

43:03

oh man, Blue Sunshine has got

43:05

to be the best and ugliest psychedelic

43:08

exploitation cinema. Yeah, and thoroughly

43:10

not like non psychedelic really, but

43:13

still worth seeing. If that movie, that movie

43:15

is a tan shag carpet it

43:17

is just hideous starring Zalman King.

43:20

But I I do have to to mention too that

43:22

I remember when we aired this episode and this

43:24

was I think an episode I did with Julie Douglas back in the

43:26

day. We did hear from a couple of listeners

43:29

who insisted that they had experienced acid

43:31

flashbacks at some point in their

43:33

life. So, I mean, the the accounts

43:35

are out there, there is, uh, you know,

43:38

at least they're

43:40

at least accounts of people dealing

43:42

with these and and you know, claiming to

43:44

deal with the reality of of acid

43:46

flashbacks. So um, you know, perhaps

43:48

more studies needed. Well, I mean, according to

43:50

grow Is, it's not like that they're

43:53

serious doubt that some versions of these

43:55

things exist. The evidence seems

43:57

to show that if to whatever

43:59

extent these problems do exist, they're

44:02

rare enough that they don't really show up

44:04

statistically right. Well,

44:06

then you know, and also wonder too, like what

44:09

other factors are involved there, Like

44:11

if if you have had a psychedelic

44:13

experience and it was meaningful,

44:16

as a lot of them end up being, they ended up being

44:18

something that stick with you and they

44:21

give you a glimpse of, you know, something

44:23

that is in some way hallucinatory,

44:25

and then later on you have some sort of hallucinatory

44:28

uh experience that is tied

44:30

to another uh

44:33

situation, like you might have a tendency

44:35

to interpret it as being linked to

44:37

that original use. Well exactly,

44:39

yeah, there's a correlation causation issue here.

44:41

I mean the authors of the first study, Crebs

44:43

and Johansson I mentioned, they point out that

44:45

these symptoms of hpp D also

44:48

occur in people who have never taken psychedelics

44:51

that you know, so there could be there could be a causality

44:54

issue there. Decide another

44:56

study. There was a study by Hendricks

44:59

at All in the Journal of Psychopharmacology

45:01

and called classic psychedelic

45:04

uses associated with reduced psychological

45:06

distress and suicidality

45:08

in the United States adult population. So

45:11

this study looked at an even larger sample,

45:13

about a hundred ninety thousand survey respondents.

45:16

It also found that the use of

45:18

those three psychedelics was not and

45:21

again I mentioned earlier it was LSD,

45:23

psilocybin, and mescalin, so

45:26

not not necessarily applying to the others.

45:29

Those are the classic psychedelics I guess, so

45:31

the psychedelic classic not

45:33

to be confused with your classical psychedelics,

45:35

not new psychedelics. Anyway,

45:39

this study found that those three psychedelics

45:41

were not associated with any adverse

45:43

mental health outcomes. The study actually

45:46

found some evidence to the exact contrary.

45:49

People who had at some time used

45:51

LSD or psilocybin had a lower

45:54

lifetime risk of suicidal ideation

45:56

or suicide attempts, though it's not clear

45:58

that the psychedelics paws these lower

46:01

rates of suicidal thoughts and behavior. Maybe

46:03

there's some factor not controlled

46:05

for that makes people both less prone to

46:08

these problems and more likely to try

46:10

psychedelics at some point. But it is worth

46:12

noting that the use of other non

46:14

psychedelic illicit drugs was mostly

46:16

associated with increases in risk

46:19

for past months, psychological distress,

46:21

and suicidal thoughts and behaviors. The psychedelics

46:23

appeared to be the exception. They were the

46:26

drugs that that did not cause increase

46:28

mental health problems. And so, to go

46:30

back to Cormier's article, this was written up

46:32

with a with a quote from one of the authors of the paper

46:35

saying quote the author was Matthew

46:37

Johnson, saying quote, We're not claiming

46:39

that no individuals have ever been harmed by

46:41

psychedelics. Anecdotes about

46:43

acid casualties can be very powerful,

46:46

but these instances are rare. Uh

46:48

And he says that the population level, that

46:50

the data about the harms of psychedelics

46:53

have been overstated. So again we're

46:55

not advising any particular plan of action

46:57

or telling people to take psychedelics. I would say the

47:00

bottom line from my reading

47:02

on the risks of psychedelics is that there

47:04

do appear to be some risks, but the

47:06

risks are rare. There are risks to

47:09

any drug. Any drug you're going to take,

47:11

you should research from science

47:13

based sources and and if possible,

47:15

get medical advice before embarking

47:18

on um. But then also

47:20

those risks that do exist seem

47:23

to be relatively low and relatively

47:25

rare compared to the risks of lots

47:27

of other known drugs. Yeah, ultimately,

47:29

basic decisions on science

47:32

and not on whatever the last horror

47:34

movie you saw have or

47:36

or or comedy. You know, you could go either way,

47:38

right, depending on what you're watching. You can

47:40

get a very skewed view of what

47:43

a psychedelicy is and what kind of experience

47:45

you can expect from them. Aren't Psychedelic comedy

47:47

is generally more horrifying than psychedelic

47:49

horror. I'm trying to think of what a

47:51

good side. Well, you know, you're talking like the monkeys

47:54

movie like head and

47:56

and so forth, or Yellow Submarine

47:59

horror comedy. Okay,

48:01

did we did we run into the problem we envisioned

48:03

we might, which is that we thought this was going to be

48:05

the last part and then we only got halfway by

48:07

the time we're what like fifty minutes

48:10

now. Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna need to cut

48:12

this episode off. There's gonna be one more. So for

48:14

everyone out there who is enjoying this, uh,

48:16

this ride of psychedelic episodes,

48:18

well then rejoice because we have one more for you.

48:21

Um for the rest of you, well, just

48:24

bear in mind there's only one more. I mean, you can't get

48:26

off. You gotta go all the way to the endpoint, right

48:29

right. Yeah, And our next episode, we're gonna we're

48:31

gonna discuss some of what's been going on in the

48:33

twenty one century, where we are now in the psychedelic

48:35

renaissance, and where we might be going in the future.

48:37

Sounds great. In the meantime, if you want to check

48:40

out more episodes of Stuff to Bow your Mind, head on

48:42

over to stuff to Blew your Mind dot com. That's

48:44

where you'll find them all. Uh. You also,

48:46

of course can support our show in

48:48

a few different ways, but the best way to do it is

48:50

to tell your friends about Stuff to Blow your Mind. Uh.

48:53

To make sure you have subscribed to this show as

48:55

well as our other show, Invention, which

48:57

is an exploration of human techno hit

49:00

Stree and UH and I think we're planning

49:02

to do an episode soon or

49:04

have already done an episode on

49:06

penicillin, depending on when

49:08

you listen to this. Yeah, we will not have already

49:11

done it. We will have done it. We

49:13

will do it. I'm not sure where we will

49:15

have agreed to do it. We will have agreed to

49:17

do it. It sounds to me

49:19

like you're struggling with mental time travel. It

49:22

can be difficult with a two podcast

49:24

schedule at any rate. Support

49:26

Invention. Support Stuff to Blow your Mind by subscribing,

49:29

leaving nice reviews, leaving some stars, and telling

49:31

your friends about it. Huge thanks as always to

49:33

our excellent audio producer Maya

49:35

Cole. If you would like to get in touch with

49:37

us with feedback on this episode or any other,

49:39

to suggest a topic for the future, or

49:41

just to say hello, you can email us at

49:44

contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

49:46

dot com.

49:56

Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's

49:58

How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my Heart

50:00

Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

50:03

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

50:54

Hi, I'm Robert sex Reese,

50:56

host of The Doctor sex Rees Show. And

50:59

every episode I listened to people

51:01

talk about their sex and intimacy issues,

51:03

and yes, I despise every

51:05

minute of it. And she she made

51:07

mistakes too? Did she kill

51:09

everyone at her wedding? But hell is real.

51:12

We're all trapped here and there's nothing

51:14

any of us can do about it. So join

51:16

me, won't you? Listen to The Doctor's

51:18

Sex re Show every Tuesday on the I Heart

51:20

Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever

51:23

you get your podcast. Hello, I'm

51:25

Mini Driver and on my podcast Many

51:27

Questions, I put together a little experiment.

51:30

I ask trailblazers across different

51:32

disciplines the same seven questions. Questions

51:34

about the inflection points in their life, what

51:37

they like least about themselves, and what relationship

51:39

has to find love for them. This season,

51:41

I'm coming back with new trailblazers

51:44

like Blondie vocalist Debbie Harry.

51:46

I did have a revelation. It was at

51:48

CBGBs. As a matter of fact, I was waiting

51:51

for the audience to give it

51:53

to me, give it me. Then I realized that I had

51:55

to make them. I have to

51:58

command them artists and creative

52:00

Juggernaut. Goldie and I walk up to

52:02

the mountain on high cop just being

52:04

in that environment and seeing life and death

52:06

in front of you, right in front

52:09

of you. And I got there and scream and

52:11

crying and laugh and I find

52:13

that being the happiest.

52:16

And many more join me as we continue

52:19

this exploration on season two

52:21

of many questions on the I Heart Radio

52:23

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

52:25

you get your favorite podcasts. What

52:30

girls in the forest, our imaginative

52:32

and our family bonds. The

52:35

forest is closer than you think. Find

52:37

a forest near you and discover the forest

52:39

dot Org. Brought to you by the United States

52:42

Forest Service and the AD Council.