0:00

Hey! Hey! Welcome to the

0:02

Bitcoin Matrix podcast. I'm your

0:04

host, Cedric Youngwoman. In this

0:06

episode, I had the pleasure

0:08

of being invited on the

0:11

Bight Federal podcast and sitting

0:13

down with my good friend

0:15

Paul Tarantino, for an engaging

0:17

conversation about Bitcoin's transformative impact

0:20

on personal identity, global economics,

0:22

and investment strategies. We explored

0:24

how Bitcoin challenges traditional finance

0:26

norms, like the concept of

0:29

diversification. and I shared my perspective

0:31

on the mindset shifts required to

0:33

thrive in a Bitcoin-driven future. It

0:35

was a dynamic and thought-provoking discussion

0:38

that I truly enjoyed. Now... Before

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we get started, I want to

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I hope you enjoy this rip. Again,

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the only thing I'm going to ask

1:44

of you is if you can please

1:46

go and subscribe to the RSS feed

1:48

and our YouTube channel. And if you

1:50

do want to get in touch with

1:52

me, it's Cedric at the Bitcoin Matrix.com.

1:55

And now. Let's enter

1:57

the Bitcoin matrix. What

2:01

is real? How do you define real?

2:03

You can't jump into cash. Cash is

2:05

trash. What do you do? You get

2:07

out. My guest today, Cedric Young Loman,

2:09

if you don't know him, he runs

2:12

the Bitcoin Matrix podcast. And he gets

2:14

to talk to lots of people in

2:16

this space. He's been doing it for

2:18

a number of years. And so he's...

2:20

got a lot of things on his

2:22

mind and I've enjoyed getting to know

2:25

Cedric over the last couple years because

2:27

he always opens my eyes to new

2:29

potential outcomes. I like to think of

2:31

you dude as like the guy on

2:33

the wall right like I find the

2:35

guy in the basement putting all the

2:38

strings and pinning them up to the

2:40

pictures and then you come down to

2:42

the basement with me and you're like

2:44

oh Paul you got it all wrong

2:46

and you just start moving the strings

2:49

around and you reconnect everything for me

2:51

and then I'm like I never thought

2:53

of it that way but I could

2:55

see the potential. What are you saying?

2:57

That's like my entire relationship with you.

2:59

And I think you have that impact

3:02

on a lot of people because you

3:04

think way outside the box in a

3:06

positive way because it's always good to

3:08

hold multiple potential outcomes, right? So I

3:10

appreciate that and you and I'm glad

3:12

you're here with me today. Well, thank

3:15

you so much for having me. It's

3:17

awesome to be here. It's awesome to

3:19

be here, especially with you. We've become

3:21

friends over the last, I don't two

3:23

years now. You guys are doing awesome

3:25

things and the space is really cool.

3:28

You know, I do like to be

3:30

the fly on the wall, not just

3:32

the guy at the wall maybe, but

3:34

like hearing what's going on and kind

3:36

of tapping in. Speaking maybe like the

3:38

guy at the wall, sometimes maybe, I

3:41

do like to think outside the box

3:43

and contrarian, not just like to be

3:45

contrarian, but to kind of float what

3:47

could happen. And I could kind of

3:49

have strong opinions that I could hold

3:51

loosely and move on. kind of having

3:54

one of those like you know moments

3:56

where I thought I was having a

3:58

lot of real thoughts and was getting

4:00

crazy and I was telling my wife

4:02

I'm like wow it's like a beautiful

4:05

mind in here like it's crazy and

4:07

she's like you haven't seen the movie

4:09

and I'm like I know but like

4:11

you got a picture like I'm at

4:13

the wall and this is going on

4:15

and that's going on she's like that's

4:18

that's nothing like the movie and I'm

4:20

sure it's nothing like that in your

4:22

mind and it's not you know but

4:24

yeah it's fun to kind of

4:26

get into that stuff and

4:28

you know it's kind of

4:31

See what's going on and

4:33

figure it out and try

4:35

to maybe prepare yourself or

4:37

especially mentally these days or

4:39

yeah, that's a great. That's

4:41

a great place to start.

4:44

I was literally doing

4:46

that this morning thinking

4:49

about all the Change geopolitical

4:52

financial Fiscal

4:54

and monetary policy

4:57

presidential Wars,

4:59

there's so much shit changing

5:01

rapidly that, and

5:04

Trump's about to step

5:06

into that, to me, it's going

5:08

to be an absolutely

5:10

chaotic first six months

5:12

to maybe a year. What are

5:15

your thoughts on that? Yeah, I

5:17

mean, I think that's really,

5:19

I think a lot

5:21

of weird things are

5:23

getting normalized, like just

5:26

this united healthcare CEO.

5:28

I mean murdered on the streets of New

5:30

York and it takes five days to find

5:32

the guy and they find him

5:34

in McDonald's and the whole thing

5:36

is kind of weird but it

5:38

just it forget about the particular

5:41

incident it's normalizing sort of vengeance

5:43

and violence against people, you

5:45

know, CEOs or, you know,

5:47

the elite, whatever you want

5:49

to call it, political assassinations,

5:51

economic assassinations are getting normalized.

5:53

And so, that's kind of

5:56

scary. That's like fourth turning

5:58

stuff. Yeah, it is. and I

6:00

you know I I just I don't know if

6:02

you've noticed it maybe it's just my

6:04

feed but the last month on X the

6:06

amount of violence I'm seeing like like

6:09

just watching on X maybe it's because

6:11

I'm so in shock and I'm actually

6:13

watching it that they're feeding me more

6:15

of it but it's well it got

6:17

really bad for me about six months

6:20

ago where a lot of pure sort

6:22

of things I were trying to drive

6:24

racism I thought a lot of racial

6:26

violence just a lot of violence in

6:28

general Somehow for me my feed that's

6:30

home down a bit But it is strange

6:33

how there's like a water cooler moments

6:35

of the feed that probably shouldn't be

6:37

there in terms of like we're all

6:40

looking at maybe some issues the same

6:42

At least maybe in our spheres or

6:44

bubbles and even like I'll talk about

6:46

it with my wife like we have the same

6:48

feed Really? Yeah, it's like we'll show bring

6:50

up a tweet and I'll be like yeah,

6:52

no, I was I just sent you that

6:55

yeah, yeah, yeah Well, I guess that makes

6:57

sense because you know, it's listening to you

6:59

talk to sure I guess Yeah, but it's

7:01

it's kind of we should have very different

7:04

we should have a lot more variety in

7:06

our feeds I feel like okay and the

7:08

issues that there shouldn't be as many issues

7:10

I feel like bubble up maybe or stay

7:13

there for so long right right that seems

7:15

the algorithm definitely seems like driven towards

7:18

some goal Yeah, for sure and

7:20

driving conversations and Maybe it's misinformation

7:22

or disinformation or just distraction

7:25

or maybe there's more to it.

7:27

And I wonder how many entities are fighting

7:29

over that algorithm. Like we're, you know,

7:31

trying to, you know, game it for those

7:33

purposes outside of Twitter. Yes. You know, and

7:35

have moles in Twitter and stuff. I mean,

7:37

I don't know how far it goes. I

7:39

don't know. That's a really important algorithm.

7:42

That's incredibly undervalued. What is it,

7:44

like a hundred billion dollar company

7:46

now since? I don't even know.

7:48

But it is nothing. It feels

7:50

totally different in there now. It does. It

7:52

feels a lot better. But at the

7:54

same time, I think that this is

7:56

going towards like being like the WhatsApp

7:58

platform where we're going to. They're IDing

8:00

everybody on the platform. They're incentivizing

8:02

the platform for you to be

8:04

verified. He's going, I mean, he

8:07

comes from the PayPal world. So

8:09

he's gonna roll out money on

8:11

some rails there with some sort

8:13

of currency. I mean, I think

8:15

he would do best if he

8:17

went with the dollar. And then,

8:19

obviously, Bitcoin would be the best,

8:21

but like I think he's not

8:23

going to do that. And so

8:26

maybe it's the dollar, maybe it's

8:28

Doge coin, maybe some coin, Elon

8:30

coin. Yeah, I don't know if

8:32

that far, but that's the scary

8:34

part of it. Yeah. Well, let's

8:36

let's talk about that I mean

8:38

that Trump is You know obviously

8:40

pro Bitcoin, but he's also very

8:43

pro crypto, right? Which could be

8:45

CBDCs and stable points and surveillance

8:47

and I have no idea He

8:49

could be the guy that just

8:51

says make your own money. Go

8:53

for it. Do whatever you want

8:55

to do. Well, I think there'll

8:57

be a lot of that. You

8:59

know in some way there should

9:02

be Sure, like I mean we

9:04

had private money in the 1800s.

9:06

It was successful. I mean there's

9:08

there's an argument to be made

9:10

there There's more libertarian perspective of

9:12

sure of let the market decide

9:14

and I can appreciate that as

9:16

long as it's not like out

9:18

you know rub poles Yeah, exactly

9:21

outright fraud and scams and you

9:23

know predatory behavior, right? Yeah, I

9:25

think you know that You know

9:27

you even look at something yeah,

9:29

I mean securities like don't have

9:31

to all be shit coins I

9:33

think in a Bitcoin will there'll

9:35

be a financialized world. Yes, they'll

9:38

be credit and there'll be equity

9:40

and there'll be securities and there'll

9:42

be bonds They'll just be structured

9:44

differently right I mean think about

9:46

it today think about all the

9:48

financial products that are available today

9:50

that have a huge treasury component

9:52

to them Sure, yeah, of course,

9:54

right right because it's your base

9:57

so in the future Why would

9:59

not BTC be a part of

10:01

all so many of these financial

10:03

products? Right and loans would just

10:05

have to outperform the rate of

10:07

Bitcoin's natural return, right? You know,

10:09

but back to like say Trump

10:11

and Musk and like I'm not

10:13

sure You know, I have an

10:16

optimistic view. It feels way more

10:18

optimistic now than it did six

10:20

weeks ago, I kind of feel

10:22

that the world feels a little

10:24

different, more orange, bright orange future.

10:26

I'm still really weary. They still

10:28

have like several steps to take.

10:30

I think Free Ross day one

10:33

is, I mean, if we don't

10:35

see that day one, I'm going

10:37

to start questioning a lot of

10:39

promises and everything. Right. I'm trying

10:41

not to get too into the

10:43

details of appointments and who has

10:45

this position. I just want to

10:47

see results. And in the economy,

10:49

like, where do you know, there's

10:52

the federal reserve and everything they

10:54

do they do there, make Bitcoin

10:56

legal tender? Do they get rid

10:58

of capital gains tax on Bitcoin?

11:00

I mean, these are real steps

11:02

they can take, that probably would

11:04

benefit themselves. I'm assuming they're positioning

11:06

themselves. I mean, you know, they're

11:08

incentivized too. Yeah, we can only

11:11

guess, right? But I think we've

11:13

got a really good chance that

11:15

we're going to see them try

11:17

all sorts of things. We're going

11:19

into a new monetary paradigm. The

11:21

United States is going to go

11:23

there. And it has to go

11:25

there because of the death spiral.

11:27

So with that transition, we're going

11:30

to see things tried, we're going

11:32

to see things failed, retried, etc.

11:34

Until they get something that's working

11:36

towards their desired goal. which is

11:38

going to be more dollars in

11:40

the system, a lower purchasing price

11:42

of dollars, so a weakening of

11:44

the currency, and massive economic growth.

11:47

To me, that all signals, no

11:49

matter, no matter all the steps

11:51

it takes to get there, that

11:53

all signals weakening the dollar. purchasing

11:55

or at least getting out of

11:57

the way of purchases of Bitcoin.

11:59

So Bitcoin... as Bitcoin price drives

12:02

up, it's going to drive

12:04

the use of stable coins.

12:06

So just like the issuance

12:08

of more treasuries drives more

12:11

dollars in the system, you're

12:13

going to get the price

12:15

rising of Bitcoin generating

12:17

the desire for more

12:19

stable coins globally being

12:22

the primary trading pair,

12:24

USD and Bitcoin. And

12:26

so I think like. However you

12:28

want to look at all these different

12:30

things that could transpire in us getting

12:33

there, that's the desired goal and how they

12:35

get there is going to be a rough

12:37

ride because there's going to be a lot

12:39

of fights to get to that point. What are

12:41

your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I do

12:43

agree that it'll be a rough ride.

12:46

I mean, it's very optimistic in a

12:48

great way, like I, you know, struggling

12:50

with, thinking about the strategic Bitcoin reserve.

12:52

They have such an opportunity here

12:54

to recapitalize America's balance

12:57

sheet. You know I think there's sort of that

12:59

thing we'll get politicized down the road one

13:01

day where there'll be a future politician

13:03

who would be like wow we have

13:05

all these Bitcoin reserves we have 40

13:07

trillion in Bitcoin reserves like maybe someone

13:09

like AOCs like why don't we liquidate

13:11

that so we could pay for free

13:13

housing for everyone you know and destroy

13:16

our reserves and disheout the wealth to

13:18

the current generation but I would love

13:20

to even get that far and have

13:22

that problem yeah right I mean we

13:24

could recapitalize social security I mean, I

13:26

like the planned sailors rolling out where

13:28

we just, you know, recapitalize America

13:31

and demolish and demonetize gold and

13:33

our enemies' ability to like economically

13:35

fight against us and put them

13:37

all behind us. And this is

13:39

that moment where other countries are

13:41

obviously watching what we're talking about

13:43

and we are talking about that

13:45

as a nation. These are all things that

13:48

are on the table that as a Bitcoiner

13:50

for the last, I don't know how many, you've

13:52

been in a long time. It's hard

13:54

to fathom that we're here so fast. It's

13:57

like all these things we've been talking about

13:59

that are... that we're at some point

14:01

in the future and they boom they're

14:03

all right now but you know based

14:05

on our all our conclusions already like

14:07

we all kind of expected this and

14:10

that's these are grand things to say

14:12

and that's a broad generalization but like

14:14

you know if you believe in like

14:16

everything divided by 21 million that means

14:18

you have to blow through 10 thousand

14:20

a coin you have to blow through

14:22

a million you have to blow through

14:24

10 million like you know unless you're

14:27

just being sort of obnoxious or like

14:29

you know if you believe in that

14:31

math and that true sort of like

14:33

this is a denominator so all these

14:35

things aren't they're shocking that we're going

14:37

through it but we they're kind of

14:39

expected no that's what I mean I

14:41

didn't mean that's not shocking that we're

14:44

going through it's shocking that is all

14:46

coming right now to me at least

14:48

because like when you hear about you

14:50

know when I first heard Samson talk

14:52

about the Omega candle and going to

14:54

a million I was like you know

14:56

maybe the next cycle But now, I'm

14:59

seeing all these data points. I'm going,

15:01

Samson probably knew this before I knew

15:03

it. And that doesn't seem too far-fetched.

15:05

That's definitely a few different outcomes that

15:07

could get us to a million, like,

15:09

real fast. I think we have to

15:11

go to a million right fast in

15:13

a lot of ways whether it's this

15:16

cycle or next like they're gonna be

15:18

vicious swings up that I think a

15:20

lot of people are expecting lower returns

15:22

going forward or less volatility and I

15:24

don't think that's necessarily the case at

15:26

all you know that you have such

15:28

a small sample size behind us yeah

15:30

like you have that escur right there

15:33

you have to go up at one

15:35

point straight up straight up and if

15:37

you look at something like even like

15:39

you can look at something like Fidelity's

15:41

report Where they said that in 2038.

15:43

It's gonna be one billion dollars per

15:45

Bitcoin. Yeah, like to get there It's

15:47

violent and straight up and you know,

15:50

I was talking to a very Predominant

15:52

you could say famous Bitcoin or who's

15:54

one of those bill bullish bickows you

15:56

could ever meet I through he was

15:58

like how bullish you are and I

16:00

was like well. You got this article

16:02

from he's like oh, come on. That's

16:04

hocus focus numbers like no one could

16:07

even like you know, this is like

16:09

in a bar wasted numbers But like

16:11

out of line if you really believe

16:13

everything divided by 21 minutes? What? I

16:15

don't know who, I don't know what

16:17

her title was, but I just saw

16:19

a cryptocurrency analyst on CNBC from Fidelity

16:22

that said, this cycle 500 to a

16:24

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16:26

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river.com/matrix. Yeah, I mean, again, and I

16:53

think it's like, there could be unforeseen

16:56

events, like no one foresee China banning

16:58

mining for the ninth time. No, I'm

17:00

sure there's stuff coming on. No one

17:02

foreseeing FTX and Celsius and Luna. And

17:04

so there could be sort of black

17:06

swans. really weird things like again I'm

17:08

not rooting or for against it but

17:10

what if Trump got assassinated and the

17:13

you know Powell lowered what would it

17:15

be like he would lower rates no

17:17

raise rates dramatically and back the currency

17:19

for the next 10 to 20 years

17:21

with goal I mean like there could

17:23

be events or just the markets get

17:25

decimated because of world war there there

17:28

are bare cases that are you know

17:30

outside of maybe what we expect to

17:32

happen, but the more we all expect

17:34

one thing, maybe again, you have to

17:36

be a little contrarian, is like something

17:38

else could happen. And even if we

17:40

go up very fast, it's going to

17:42

happen in a way we can't expect.

17:45

Yeah, for sure. And that's the thing

17:47

about, like everyone thinks that bear markets

17:49

are harder than bull markets, but like

17:51

you'd, it's harder to ride a bull

17:53

than it is to a bear. Like

17:55

a bear is a less vicious. just

17:57

a really mobile animal. I'm not saying

17:59

you have a better chance against the

18:02

bear. I'm just saying like you could

18:04

ride the back of a bear probably

18:06

longer than the back of a bull.

18:08

And a bull literally tries to throw

18:10

you off by going lower. And like

18:12

the difference with the bull and the

18:14

bear is like in a bear market

18:16

like your losses are capped. It's like

18:19

options like you put in what you

18:21

put in and then you can only

18:23

lose that amount. It's finite. So you

18:25

could be like, yeah, I'm going to

18:27

zero, like I'd only lose that amount.

18:29

But in a bull market, like your

18:31

losses when you sell are infinite in

18:34

terms of what you miss out on

18:36

upside potentially. No, I know. This cycle

18:38

is going to be really hard to

18:40

sell. Well, I mean, but it's really

18:42

hard to sell. Well, think about if,

18:44

you know, if you go from like...

18:46

200,000 to 750,000 in a very short

18:48

period of time. And what that's gonna

18:51

do to people sort of, their own

18:53

wealth, like let's, whatever you are worth

18:55

at that $200,000 point of a Bitcoin.

18:57

So let's say you're lucky you got

18:59

to one Bitcoin. Are you really fortunate?

19:01

So you've written, now you're worth $200,000

19:03

with this one Bitcoin. I'm not saying

19:05

you don't have other things in your

19:08

life going on. And then it shoots

19:10

up to 750, now at that point

19:12

you could sell 200, and you know

19:14

what I mean you have all the

19:16

and then but but you really facing

19:18

this thing is like you're worth 750

19:20

right? And maybe you have a wife

19:22

and kids you have people dependent on

19:25

you and then that thing drops down

19:27

to 175 like you're gonna look like

19:29

a schmuck and feel horrible and maybe

19:31

still be better off at 175 than

19:33

you were at $15,000 Bitcoin but those

19:35

are psychologically really hard and all big

19:37

ones we've been around a while have

19:40

gone through this but the higher the

19:42

numbers go I think the harder those

19:44

things get to ride maybe in ways

19:46

that we we all don't expect yet.

19:48

I you know I've been I've been

19:50

that people have to make I've been

19:52

lucky enough or or unlucky or unlucky

19:54

enough however you want to look at

19:57

that to not sell any of it

19:59

ever but you know it is always

20:01

a it's unbelievable the the amount of

20:03

emotional pressure you have at those people

20:05

where you just, once you hit like,

20:07

I remember when we hit 17,000 back

20:09

in 2000, December of 2017, and we

20:11

were talking about ETFs back then. Right.

20:14

Because it was inevitable. We were like,

20:16

ETFs is going to happen like any,

20:18

eminently. Right. And we would go to

20:20

100K. We were thinking 100K back then.

20:22

Gemini was applying. There were also some,

20:24

somebody say, you know, it was like

20:26

Chinese New Year was going at Wall

20:28

Street bonuses. And then the futures, and

20:31

then futures came out. Yes, which demolished

20:33

the market and what it was. So

20:35

it was settled and there was a

20:37

way to manipulate. So, but you could

20:39

see how like every cycle when you

20:41

get into that emotional state where like

20:43

let's say we get to that 500,000

20:46

you're you're going to be going, oh

20:48

my god, it's literally like three bars

20:50

and we could be at a million.

20:52

You know, I mean, you also don't

20:54

know if so. back to the thing

20:56

like you're 500,000 are we going to

20:58

a million the cycle or back down

21:00

in 90K right and that's gonna be

21:03

really difficult for a lot of people

21:05

to ride that bull yeah exactly and

21:07

the uncertainty of that yeah and and

21:09

and face the people that are they're

21:11

responsible I'm sure you're experiencing this right

21:13

like I talked to a friend yesterday

21:15

I've been talking to him about Bitcoin

21:17

for a long time and I've never

21:20

sold either right way good for you

21:22

and he's asking me about Bitcoin now

21:24

ever since we broke all time, head

21:26

tonic, you know, it says, hey, I

21:28

want to talk to you, let's sit

21:30

down. And so I was talking to

21:32

him yesterday and he, you know, he's

21:34

going on like, where do you think

21:37

I could go? And I just said,

21:39

well, you know, we're certainly, you know,

21:41

within the next four to five years,

21:43

going to be at a million dollars

21:45

of coin. And he just looked at

21:47

me like, like, I know, it's hard

21:49

to me. Like it's just the start.

21:51

Like you just want to buy as

21:54

much as you can right now and

21:56

have it be money that you don't

21:58

worry about for the next 10-20 years.

22:00

And he's kind of looked at me

22:02

like just that mentality of shifting somebody.

22:04

away from, oh, here's a hot stock

22:06

tip, to this is the new monetary

22:09

system, this is becoming the pristine collateral

22:11

of the future financial system, you have

22:13

to hold this forever. That's how it

22:15

changes your life. If you sell it,

22:17

you're going to regret it. Like this

22:19

shift in the mindset of that blows

22:21

people away. And then I'll get the,

22:23

I literally, literally 30 seconds later goes,

22:26

but what do you think about Doge?

22:30

He's like, well, you know, he just

22:32

at that moment, he traded against you.

22:34

What's that? He's trading against you. What

22:36

do you mean by that? So he's

22:38

saying, okay, like, wow, like, Bitcoin might

22:40

still go from 100K to a million.

22:42

I would, 10X if that happened to

22:45

me. That's what he's saying. Right, right,

22:47

right, right. Right, right. Maybe I'm gonna

22:49

put 10 grand in this. You know,

22:51

and a lot of people when they

22:53

don't have any Bitcoin, they only consider

22:55

new money allocations. Like how much would

22:57

I go to the casino and spend

22:59

on this Bitcoin thing that might 5

23:01

or 10x from here. I'm a little

23:03

too late. I'll never catch Paul. So

23:06

and they're not trading with their future

23:08

self because they're not saying itself Whatever

23:10

I have wouldn't it be nice to

23:12

five or ten X that right in

23:14

a very sort of what I see

23:16

is a risk-free way if you study

23:18

your asset But they're saying no, this

23:20

is the most riskiest thing I could

23:22

do I'm gonna put it's very little

23:25

into as possible But if I could

23:27

buy this thing with very low price

23:29

point that Paul's not in especially Yeah,

23:31

yeah, yeah, then not only could I

23:33

do well, but I can might be

23:35

Paul, because that's really the whole game

23:37

at this point. What small amount can

23:39

I put into something else that I

23:41

don't care about that might be Paul?

23:43

How do we change that game? And

23:46

the other thing I saw, the other

23:48

thing I saw, the other thing I

23:50

saw, the other thing I saw that

23:52

is, because they're also like, because they're

23:54

also like, well, you know, I mean,

23:56

if like, if this thing is true,

23:58

then I'm going to do it. Very

24:00

few people at that point. Think like

24:02

Michael Sailor with like what can I

24:05

reallocate to Bitcoin? Yes, right? Like what

24:07

do I want to think? Oh, that

24:09

thing's better. I put in the work

24:11

and it's better than the things I

24:13

have because the point you're talking on,

24:15

they like the things they have. They're

24:17

up 10, 20, 30% in fiat terms.

24:19

It's doing well. They feel like that's

24:21

great. They would never sell this is

24:23

what they're investing in their guy told

24:26

them to buy that. And then the

24:28

other thing I noticed, you call like

24:30

the normy land, but I talked to

24:32

a lot of boomers over Thanksgiving. Like

24:34

a little on the older side of

24:36

boomers. But for so many people, 100K

24:38

feels like this natural, organic, limiting barrier.

24:40

And so like at Moek, we're at

24:42

another natural top. The thing is 100K.

24:45

Like you've achieved like now. For them,

24:47

that's not a million dollar thing, but

24:49

it's like a land beginning cost half

24:51

a million. It's like it is the

24:53

thing now. And the only way they

24:55

can go is really up a like

24:57

10 12% or down from here and

24:59

again, it's like and it's it's not

25:01

pristine collateral It's not money they could

25:04

spend and it's not to them. It's

25:06

newfangled Something they don't understand. It's like

25:08

why is this thing worth under K?

25:10

And it's over are you getting the

25:12

emails in the text? Congratulations I'm getting

25:14

at the dinner table over Thanksgiving like

25:16

wow I'm It's up a lot. I'd

25:18

never thought I've never thought it'd be

25:20

this price. I've been getting the messages

25:22

of like well, congratulations. It's the same.

25:25

It's the same sentiment. Right. It's over.

25:27

Like you made it. You made it.

25:29

You're over. It's over. Yeah. Like you

25:31

should get out. You know, like I

25:33

hope you got to point one coins

25:35

and you know, go get yourself like

25:37

some ice cream. Yeah. Disney. Yeah. And

25:39

again. I mean, I mean, I think

25:41

the point you made on when you

25:44

made on when you made on when

25:46

you came on when you came on

25:48

when you came on when you came

25:50

on my show when you came on

25:52

my show when you came on my

25:54

show when you came on my show.

25:56

I fundamentally believe in it, it goes

25:58

back to unit of account, but just

26:00

having a few sads, you don't have

26:02

to have a lot of a lot

26:05

of Bitcoin to be empowered by that,

26:07

by what this new paradigm shift is,

26:09

and that also one day you will

26:11

be wealthy because of everything divided by

26:13

21 million. life, right? But you have

26:15

to have patience. You've got to have

26:17

patience. And if you enter the cycle

26:19

now, I'd say to a lot of

26:21

people, like it takes like, I think

26:24

it takes three cycles, I think maybe

26:26

to retire yourself on Bitcoin, if you

26:28

do it in sort of a frugal

26:30

way. Like you're just setting aside new

26:32

money. A good friend of mine, and

26:34

I know you know her. I think

26:36

in 2000, I might have the date

26:38

wrong, 17 or something like that. She's

26:40

doing 30 bucks a day. Which is

26:42

amazing and awesome and now it's close

26:45

to 900,000 bucks Right and I think

26:47

87,000 dollars invested 900,000 roughly when it

26:49

hit about a hundred K and 30

26:51

bucks a day And what do you

26:53

think that's how many years? says several

26:55

several years. Yeah, I think it was

26:57

about 2017. Okay do that for the

26:59

next eight years now, right and I

27:01

think you'll see similar numbers if not

27:04

greater. Yeah, but at worst. What are

27:06

you can see? 10% of that? 500,000?

27:08

500,000? Right. And I think it's really

27:10

hard for people to see it as

27:12

a purchasing power increasing machine versus how

27:14

do I five X or nine X

27:16

and is that going to be enough?

27:18

And so if you use it as

27:20

a purchasing power machine you think of

27:23

it as more defensively like whatever I

27:25

have I want to convert into that

27:27

machine. It's like literally what what can

27:29

you afford to just put away every

27:31

day and do it? And do it.

27:33

20 years from now. Because you're just

27:35

going to be a game changer. Then

27:37

you've, the switch flips, you know, what

27:39

can I afford not to put into

27:41

this thing? It does. Like, what do

27:44

I have on the sideline? Well, after

27:46

you go through one cycle. Reallocate. You

27:48

start to reallocate. Yes. Once you hit

27:50

that cycle, you'll be like, oh, I'm

27:52

not putting enough in. And you got

27:54

to get started. then I gotta put

27:56

in $10 a day for the next

27:58

five years to maybe get... they get

28:00

disappointed and they get like they're

28:02

like and it's demoralizing and it doesn't

28:05

sound fast enough in a weird way

28:07

like that's crazy because their plan is

28:09

to wait another 30 years at their

28:11

day job yeah but so five years

28:13

and Bitcoin's not fast enough for 30

28:15

years at work sure going to be

28:17

great at the job they hit right

28:19

and so they don't put in any

28:21

effort you begged them to put an effort

28:24

and The guilt rides up. They're like,

28:26

wow, I didn't put it in the

28:28

effort when they said, now we're here,

28:30

it's probably over for me, and they

28:32

want to go find something else that

28:35

they could go. And unfortunately, you have

28:37

things like maybe micro strategy now, or

28:39

if you could talk some sense into

28:41

them. Well I can't believe, dude, if

28:43

I get one more question about XRP,

28:46

I'm going to frick and shoot. It's

28:48

weird that that's the big thing right

28:50

now. Everyone's... Oh, the Garling House always

28:52

ramps up the marketing every cycle. It's

28:54

amazing how effective they are. Oh

28:56

my God, the proof of marketing

28:59

is massive. Because they're up

29:01

like 200% and they're not

29:03

higher than where they were. Yeah. Price it

29:05

in Bitcoin, don't price it in dollars, and

29:07

see how it's tracked against Bitcoin. If you

29:09

look at XRP, XLLM, and Cardano, which is

29:12

a three I just did for somebody, every

29:14

cycle is a lower peak. Every cycle

29:16

is a lower peak. Every cycle is

29:18

a lower peak. And it just keeps

29:21

driving towards zero. Everything goes to zero

29:23

against Bitcoin. That's a meme because it's

29:25

true. And the best thing you could

29:27

do is just buy the Bitcoin right

29:29

now, because that is where everything's going.

29:31

I like what Tracy Mayer got me doing,

29:33

which was track your net worth in

29:35

dollars, in gold, and Bitcoin. And

29:37

of course, they should all be trending up.

29:39

Sure. But you'll notice that the

29:41

Bitcoin is going the slowest and

29:44

trending towards the amount of Bitcoin

29:46

you have in your portfolio. So

29:48

if you start off with, you know, like,

29:50

one Bitcoin and so the Bitcoin is worth

29:52

100K and you have 100K in your 401K,

29:55

you know, after a year you're going to

29:57

have like a 500, 500,000 in Bitcoin

29:59

and... 110,000 in your 401k. You'll be

30:01

up in Fiat terms, you'll be up

30:03

nothing in Bitcoin terms, though, if you

30:06

didn't add. And so you're trending towards,

30:08

like your whole portfolio, you could have

30:10

a million in your 401k and 100,000

30:12

in your, and you're going to trend

30:14

towards 100% Bitcoin. And you'll see that

30:16

it's going to be harder and harder

30:18

for that, for you to grow your

30:20

stack over time. Which I think, you

30:22

know, as I think also, kind of

30:24

demoralizing for a lot of demoralizing for

30:27

a lot of coming to... Bitcoin now.

30:29

Again, I think, you know, dollar for

30:31

dollar, they'd be better off putting any

30:33

dollar they could into Bitcoin and improving

30:35

the purchasing power and getting their money

30:37

out of the system and all things

30:39

like that. Even like, just even a

30:41

401k, you might have tax advantages, but

30:43

they might raise taxes over different regimes

30:45

and administrations. Think about all the things

30:48

you could sell finance, if you can

30:50

access all your money, you could self-fund

30:52

your own health care, your own car

30:54

insurance maybe, your own, probably just get

30:56

rid of mortgage insurance bullshit, but like

30:58

property insurance, well, can we get property

31:00

tax, but a lot of things you

31:02

could self-fund if you had your own

31:04

money and access to your own money,

31:06

and probably even just live a better

31:09

lifestyle if you had access to your

31:11

money now, and even redeploy it differently

31:13

if you could take it out of

31:15

the system. And then you take so

31:17

much risk out of your life. So

31:19

speaking about one of those financial calculations,

31:21

I hear a lot of people making

31:23

today is like real estate versus Bitcoin.

31:25

Yeah, right. I have a couple of

31:27

friends, millennials, that are like just buying

31:30

their first home and would always ask

31:32

me like, how do you know, about

31:34

down payments and things like that? And

31:36

wait. and then have a bigger down

31:38

payment to get a better house. And

31:40

not sell all your Bitcoin, or borrow

31:42

against your Bitcoin to get the bigger

31:44

house. Whatever you want to do, you

31:46

know, but the economic calculation between real

31:48

estate and Bitcoin, that's a hot topic

31:51

I think. for millennials because so many

31:53

of them have been priced out of

31:55

the housing market for so many years.

31:57

And it continues to get tougher and

31:59

tougher with rates rising. So what are

32:01

your thoughts on that? My first thought,

32:03

and I love this topic though, and

32:05

I think it's very timely, and I

32:07

think there's two different ways of looking

32:09

at just to frame it up is.

32:12

People who don't have a lot of

32:14

Bitcoin and are thinking about buying a

32:16

house and people who have Bitcoin for

32:18

a while and maybe thinking about buying

32:20

a house. And then there's people who

32:22

are like, have a house and thinking

32:24

about selling their house for Bitcoin. Let's

32:26

start with the people that are at

32:28

zero. I think first no Bitcoin and

32:30

no house. I think to kind of

32:33

give some love maybe the real estate

32:35

people because I think before Bitcoin a

32:37

lot of people and I think about

32:39

that myself like I was a securities

32:41

person an equities guy before Bitcoin if

32:43

I was going to invest I was

32:45

interested in stocks from a very young

32:47

age and there are some people who

32:49

were just interested in real estate over

32:51

stocks and the differences are like I

32:54

think primarily around sweat equity and leverage.

32:56

So if you like leverage, there's more

32:58

accessible in real estate, you can leverage

33:00

in stocks, but harder when you have

33:02

less of a portfolio in starting out.

33:04

And in real estate, you can put

33:06

in work, physical work, to juice the

33:08

asset or protect the asset or enhance

33:10

profitability. So I think a lot of

33:12

people come into Bitcoin already loving real

33:15

estate or loving their stocks and whatever

33:17

evolution they have. And I think also

33:19

around a home is so much about

33:21

beyond the financial, unfortunately homes have been

33:23

priced beyond their utility value. Yeah, exactly.

33:25

And I think that's the hardest dilemma.

33:27

They're overpriced for their utility, but there's

33:29

an emotional component to housing that is

33:31

separate from the financing of it. For

33:33

some people, I think housing represents stability,

33:36

security, maybe you have children and you

33:38

want to position yourself in a certain

33:40

part of town. Whether it's public school

33:42

or private school or homeschooling, you want

33:44

to know that you're going to be

33:46

there for eight to ten years. You

33:48

want to, and you can debate, okay,

33:50

you can maybe rent in perpetuity in

33:52

place, but it's harder to know the

33:54

landlord's not going to want to move

33:57

in or kick you out of cell.

33:59

And you can do more improvements when

34:01

you're at home. You might not do

34:03

as well with your money. As a

34:05

rent, though, as a renter, I love

34:07

not doing any of the home repair

34:09

maintenance. I think that should be a

34:11

whole outside. You have a car mechanic.

34:13

I love renting and it's like, I'll

34:15

get a, like leasing a car, like

34:18

I'll get a new house every three

34:20

years. We'll try to do it in

34:22

the same area and I'll let the

34:24

other people who manage these properties learn

34:26

how to deal with windows and plumbing

34:28

and electricity and I can focus on

34:30

podcasting and Bitcoin and books and philosophy

34:32

you know and like just special you

34:34

know but There's so much to that.

34:36

So I think that there are a

34:39

lot of people now who maybe have

34:41

been in Bitcoin for a while or

34:43

like, when do I maybe provide that

34:45

for my family? That's stability. You know,

34:47

when you do rent, like maybe you're

34:49

not going to put reverse osmosis on

34:51

the entire house. Right. You know, maybe

34:53

you're not going to improve the... the

34:55

driveway and the look of it, but

34:57

maybe it'd be nice to have a

35:00

better looking driveway and spend that money

35:02

or better landscaping and pay for it,

35:04

but you don't when it's not yours.

35:06

That's true. There's different things, you know,

35:08

maybe you have a pool and you

35:10

want a jacuzzi or, you know, whatever

35:12

it might be, and you don't want

35:14

to add that because you're renting. So

35:16

I think it's a really personal decision.

35:18

I just did a show with Leon

35:21

Wian Wankhamk about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin versus

35:23

Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin,

35:25

about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about

35:27

Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin,

35:29

about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about

35:31

Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin,

35:33

about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about Bitcoin, about

35:35

Bitcoin, versus real, I mean, I think

35:37

it, I think it, I think it,

35:39

and I think it, and I think

35:42

it, and I think it, and I

35:44

think it, about to stack Sats. Like

35:46

you were saying, to not put it

35:48

down to positive into home. But I

35:50

think if you're on the other side

35:52

of that equation and you're like, when

35:54

does housing look cheap enough in Bitcoin

35:56

terms, when do I, you know, and

35:58

there's also this like Fiat mindset I

36:00

think of like never, like never ever

36:03

selling ever ever. never ever selling your

36:05

Bitcoin is a little bit fiat yeah

36:07

right you're never gonna I mean it

36:09

is money it is savings well so

36:11

it you know can be used to

36:13

enhance your life at some point this

36:15

is where I've struggled with it with

36:17

these you might not live forever like

36:19

a shark when I've talked ha ha

36:21

ha ha we'll get there we'll get

36:24

there I when I've struggled with people

36:26

is it I think when they hear

36:28

me say what I'm about to say

36:30

they think I've lost my mind And

36:32

I tell them, like, don't buy the

36:34

house. Take your down payment, put it

36:36

at Bitcoin. And then just set up

36:38

a DCA and start. Take a hook

36:40

out of the house. No, but I

36:42

mean, be the guy who doesn't know

36:45

Bitcoin, right? And just, they think I'm

36:47

out of my mind when I tell

36:49

him this. Put however much you can

36:51

put in per week and just let

36:53

it grow. In four, five, 10 years,

36:55

you're going to have enough there that

36:57

you're going to be able to do

36:59

a transaction. to secure a home that

37:01

you never thought you could have. And

37:03

in that meantime, property prices are probably

37:06

going to be demonetized because Bitcoin is

37:08

stealing that monetization. And interest rates are

37:10

going to get lower because you have

37:12

the Bitcoin. So they're going to look

37:14

at you as a prime borrower. They're

37:16

going to be the best possible rate.

37:18

And you may not even have to

37:20

sell your Bitcoin to get the mortgage.

37:23

That's such a vastly different world than

37:25

they could have ever imagined and then

37:27

they hear that coming from the guy

37:29

down the street Who goes fishing and

37:31

surfing and and they they're like That's

37:33

a lot of killing I think I'll

37:35

just buy the I think I'll just

37:37

buy the I think I'll buy the

37:39

house. Well a lot of people I've

37:41

gone through this conversation with neighbors in

37:43

my community. Yeah who we you know

37:45

we all know we all not we

37:47

all some of us moved to Florida

37:50

in the last two three four years

37:52

we're renting to start some have gone

37:54

on they they were chasing the market

37:56

at its peak almost it seemed like

37:58

but there's a lot you know there's

38:00

a they don't put in the work

38:02

with Bitcoin but It's a really emotional

38:04

factor, I think, housing that's a little

38:06

beyond economics. And I think those things

38:08

are coming way quicker than everyone realizes.

38:10

you know, but for a lot of

38:12

people like building that bridge to that

38:14

world, even if you are a big

38:16

pointer, is not easy. And I think,

38:18

you know, the other thing around like

38:20

you're the guy who down the street

38:22

who fishes and all these things and

38:24

they might say like, oh, he drives

38:26

this car or like that thing. And

38:28

they don't see it as like, oh,

38:30

maybe like to save and afford stack.

38:33

If you look at my car, you

38:35

have no idea. But they're like, like,

38:37

My friend Paul Tarantino did not find

38:39

the new global reserve currency world before

38:41

MS NBC and CNN tell me that.

38:43

Like there's no way he found it

38:45

first. And they would want to see

38:47

more signs like in like what they

38:49

think about crypto rich for you to

38:51

like... And so, like, they have to

38:53

almost go through several cycles with the

38:55

scoreboard where, like, you told them at

38:57

X number, and the first time you

38:59

told them at Bitcoin, they probably looked

39:01

at the price, and they don't remember

39:03

the price. So, sometimes the price has

39:05

to go up several orders of magnitude

39:07

before they even notice the price, and

39:09

then it goes up several orders of

39:11

magnitude before they even notice the price,

39:13

and then it goes to several orders

39:16

of magnitude before they start, you have

39:18

credibility, because I just want to help

39:20

people. Yeah, but most people don't know

39:22

that most people are not looking to

39:24

help others because they see every trade

39:26

in their life as Against you or

39:28

you against them That's fear. That's fear.

39:30

That's fear. So there's no trade that

39:32

has ever existed Where we both win

39:34

right where we both win right where

39:36

we both win unless your cousin Bobby

39:38

who cut me in on the deal?

39:40

Yeah, yeah, right and we cut other

39:42

people out of the deal right right

39:44

and that's how everything is worked. That's

39:46

also why the game that goes up

39:48

a lot and price looks scammy Yeah,

39:50

it sounds like if you You should

39:52

buy Bitcoin because it goes up in

39:54

price. It's like, well, When I hear

39:56

like, people like, you know, I'll get

39:59

like people were like, oh, said, I

40:01

heard you're the Bitcoin guy, you're the

40:03

Bitcoin boy, you're the Bitcoin guy, go

40:05

do orange pill. Do it, do it,

40:07

orange pill now. And I'll be like,

40:09

no, orange pill now. I'll be like,

40:11

no, man, I'm cool. Orange pill now.

40:13

I'll be like, no, man, I'm cool.

40:15

I'm cool. I'm cool. Orange pill now.

40:17

I'll be like, no, man, man, man,

40:19

man, I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool.

40:21

I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm

40:23

cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool.

40:25

I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm

40:27

cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool.

40:29

I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm

40:31

cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool.

40:33

I Best stock in the world or

40:35

some checking account got 19.2% Where you

40:37

could get them in construction bridge loans

40:39

at 67% over three months I mean

40:42

like these things don't sound real There's

40:44

always a catch right and and people

40:46

in the Fiat world They're doing so

40:48

much more than their day job They're

40:50

spending 30% of their times already trying

40:52

to create recreate money in their portfolio,

40:54

right? That's all a portfolio is is

40:56

your portfolio manager trying to recreate money

40:58

and maintain purchasing power in a fiat

41:00

world. Like let me get a basket

41:02

of goods that's going to outperform the

41:04

dollar by a little bit. Not too

41:06

much because we don't want too much

41:08

risk. It's got to be stable. It's

41:10

got to be like money. Right. We're

41:12

trying to create a currency in this

41:14

thing. Right. They're trying to engineer store

41:16

a value. But it takes a lot

41:18

of time. And we've already got the

41:20

best one on the... Right. Right. Even

41:22

if you have a guy. Like you're

41:25

sweating those decisions. You're sweating the decisions

41:27

your guy and what's also amazing is

41:29

everyone's guy You know down a fidelity

41:31

or Charles Schwab has never made money

41:33

in their lives for themselves Right, they're

41:35

you know, and I'm not trying to

41:37

diminish those jobs or whatever, but they

41:39

studied Canadian economics in college and they're

41:41

handed a playbook by management And they

41:43

don't have they have very little money

41:45

of their own in the market because

41:47

you know unless they're if they've made

41:49

any real money in the market. They're

41:51

not managinguring your money Right, it's a

41:53

much more exclusive network. You're not getting,

41:55

you know, a great broker down at

41:57

the mall's fidelity branch. Right. But a

41:59

lot of people are like, oh, you

42:01

know, I remember over the years, I've

42:03

tried to help people and people like,

42:05

whoa, you're not helping grandpa. Like, we

42:08

have a guy at Morgan Stanley and

42:10

we'll talk to him. And then the

42:12

guy Morgan Stanley says, like, he's doing

42:14

okay and he shouldn't sell his apartment

42:16

and buy Bitcoin and prepare for the

42:18

future because of Social Security. It's all

42:20

good. And this, you know, so many

42:22

people pay for just a pat on

42:24

the back. Yeah, I was doing good.

42:26

You know, yeah, I was wild. You

42:28

know, you know, and they want to

42:30

be told what to do because it's

42:32

stressful out there and it's overwhelming. I

42:34

think, you know, Bitcoin is... We sound

42:36

like such arrogant assholes. Yeah, probably. But

42:38

I think, well, because, you know, uh,

42:40

Bitcoin before you, maybe you have these

42:42

thoughts, but before Bitcoin, I started to

42:44

put all my questions on the back

42:46

burner. Because I could prove nothing in

42:48

Fiat Land. Like, everything was a Fugasey.

42:51

Right, like how money works, how those

42:53

stocks should perform, like everything's a fugase,

42:55

everything's manipulated, everything's corrupted, right? And so

42:57

you're just like, all right, I'm not,

42:59

I can't, like, you grow up like

43:01

wanting to fucking rage against the machine,

43:03

and by like 25, you're like, all

43:05

right, I just, I'm going to, I'm

43:07

going to grind through the day, I'll

43:09

go to the gym, you know, I

43:11

got other things to do, you're not

43:13

going to fight the world, like, And

43:15

you're like, wait a minute, there's this

43:17

thing that I can find a real

43:19

truth. Like you can't, no one can

43:21

debate that they'll never, like the way

43:23

the code is written, if you run

43:25

your node, that your node will never

43:27

accept more than 21 million. It doesn't

43:29

have to be written to the code,

43:31

it's how you run your node, right?

43:34

And no one can. to base your

43:36

units in the system and no one

43:38

can, like, again, back to the example,

43:40

like you want to get in business

43:42

and like you want to give up

43:44

your corporate job and like, oh, open

43:46

a bar. Are you going to be

43:48

able to get a license? Like, does

43:50

the mayor know you? Like, are you

43:52

close enough to the mayor? And any

43:54

of these games, like, everything has business

43:56

risk. Like, you got your life savings,

43:58

what, like, Jeff Basos, like, gets a

44:00

blow job on video. and that leaks

44:02

and like your retirement's gone now because

44:04

you thought you were in the best

44:06

stock and like you have like you

44:08

could read their 10K and be like

44:10

okay I know they're gonna come out

44:12

with like this amazing product and they

44:14

could fail to execute you're gonna put

44:17

your life savings in that and the

44:19

more you diversify like this and this

44:21

someone who grew up I mean finance

44:23

and accounting degrees is like they teach

44:25

you to diversify right it's like the

44:27

like no one builds wealth through diversification.

44:29

And literally when you boil it down,

44:31

you're like, okay, like, I'm going to

44:33

get more involved in things I know

44:35

less about. Like every bet you get

44:37

from your main bet is a deviation

44:39

from how much you know about the

44:41

main thing. And how much do you

44:43

know about Amazon stock? Are you really

44:45

reading the 10-K every year in the

44:47

quarterly and the, you know the minutes

44:49

and going to the calls? You know

44:51

nothing about these things. And you're going

44:53

to put your life savings into these

44:55

things. And so, Bitcoin finally gives you

44:57

this thing where I could stop arguing

45:00

at the parties about everything. Even national

45:02

politics. Like, fuck it. Like, I don't

45:04

have to get involved at all at

45:06

any national politics conversations with anyone I

45:08

don't want to. Because I now have

45:10

this tool that defends me against enough

45:12

of it. Right. And maybe I had

45:14

a vote with my feet and I

45:16

moved from Illinois to Florida, right, to

45:18

change some things around me. But like,

45:20

Bitcoin was a big part of that

45:22

journey. I'd like to think I would

45:24

do it without Bitcoin, but like, you

45:26

know, it's a financial tool. Yeah, it's

45:28

fuck you money. Right. And it's, it's,

45:30

so all of a sudden, like, you

45:32

have this thing where like, no one

45:34

can argue with you, like, you, it's,

45:36

no one can argue with you, like,

45:38

you, it's, no one can argue with

45:40

you, like, no one can argue with

45:43

you, like, those clouds look weird, and

45:45

like, you're like, you're like. No, I

45:47

was right. Like, you know. And I

45:49

was like, oh, like, remember when, like,

45:51

I was, like, questioning, like, food in

45:53

my 20s. And I did I, I

45:55

became a fucking vegetarian. or Presbyterian for

45:57

nine years, like why? Why was I

45:59

looking at sort of the massination and

46:01

industrialization of food? And you know, I

46:03

might have went down some wrong rabbit

46:05

holes, but I was still trying to

46:07

figure out like what I should be

46:09

doing better. Right. And I was still

46:11

finding that, and I couldn't find any

46:13

truth there until like that coin in

46:15

a lot of ways. Like just the

46:17

curious mindset that. Got

46:20

people in the Bitcoin earlier. I think

46:22

that's all it is is truth seekers

46:24

to see and then not just truth

46:26

seekers But having the humility to admit

46:28

you're wrong about right change you hold

46:30

dear and dear and change your mind Right

46:32

the willingness to change it might be

46:34

truth seekers that like are a little

46:36

too arrogant because they believe in the

46:38

truth there to hold Yes, and that's

46:40

what the humility thing comes right that's

46:42

why I love what you said earlier.

46:44

You know strong beliefs held lightly right

46:46

because how you go I think I've

46:48

used go I think if you used

46:50

to change your mind quickly in the

46:52

face of new information in the face

46:54

of new information Right because I know

46:56

you're just you're just fooling yourself. I

46:58

know everything I'm thinking about I'm lacking

47:00

a lot of information I'm trying to

47:02

gather as much as I can I'm

47:04

gonna spend more time on the things

47:06

that I need to know more about

47:08

but even Bitcoin like I don't I

47:10

mean I know nothing about it in terms

47:13

of like knowing everything that knowing everything

47:15

that's right right and so like there's

47:17

always so much about learning now there's

47:19

other subjects I know nothing about that

47:21

I don't feel the desire or the

47:23

necessity maybe when you first found out

47:25

about it. Was it your accounting background

47:27

that queued you in or was it?

47:29

I definitely think that was part of

47:31

it. I mean I was drawn to

47:33

like Pierre Richard, Stefan, Laverre, Robert Breedlev,

47:35

and these are all foreign accounts. But

47:37

I was like, and it's running the

47:39

numbers I think when I started hearing

47:41

about as a ledger, I think one

47:43

of the things I fell down wrongly

47:45

into was like triple ledger accounting. Why

47:47

did you say that was wrong? At

47:49

the time. Because I think that made

47:51

blockchain made blockchain more than it. So because

47:53

it made it sound more applicable to

47:55

other things outside of money and that's

47:57

one thing Right, so it's sort of

47:59

like a red herring at the time.

48:01

Maybe that'll come back into play in

48:03

a different way But, so yeah, I

48:05

definitely think it was accounting. It was

48:07

this ledger, it could run the numbers.

48:09

Like I said, like I said, like

48:11

you can't, the numbers are what they

48:13

are, and you can't change, like I

48:15

said, yeah, no, there's 42 million coins,

48:17

no, there aren't, bro, or whatever, you

48:19

wanna like, think about how you calculate

48:21

money or total market value, like, how

48:23

you use unit account, account account, very

48:25

important, because like. you're already used to

48:27

converting things from different currencies into this

48:29

currency. So I never really thought about

48:31

currency as something as a store value or

48:33

invest in it. I think that's why

48:35

I missed Bitcoin early on. I didn't

48:37

need black market money. I thought that

48:39

was cool for people who need, even

48:42

if it was white market money, like

48:44

whatever they were buying, I thought that

48:46

was cool, they had currency and rails.

48:48

But I didn't know it was something

48:50

you could store money and I never

48:52

went... Oh, I'm going to scale into

48:54

the end over the next three years

48:56

because I really feel like Japan's got

48:58

great central banking policy. And as a

49:00

23-year-old account at Ernst & Young, like

49:02

I'm going to take my $4,000 in

49:04

disposable income and go hard into currency.

49:06

And I wasn't going to, you know,

49:08

with limited vestible income or savings, I

49:10

wasn't looking at more esoteric plays like

49:12

options. And, you know, I was like, let's

49:14

just stick to the basics until I

49:16

grow some wealth, right. Bitcoin, yeah, I

49:18

mean, really as a ledger, from an

49:20

accounting perspective, sure. One of the other

49:22

things that really drew me, though, was

49:24

sort of like that, well, truth-seeking, but

49:26

sort of that really toxic, the toxicity

49:28

of Bitcoiners. And when they would say

49:30

things, that sounded that you could prove

49:32

it right, false, or right, or wrong.

49:34

So they would say things like, there

49:36

will only be 21 million Bitcoin, and

49:38

everything will be divisible. So I'd have

49:40

to learn. What does that mean? And

49:42

kind of refute what they're saying and

49:44

I found out I just couldn't like

49:46

what they said found sounded like I

49:48

would love to fight with these people

49:50

online and prove them wrong. This sounds

49:52

retarded Max Kaiser's awesome with that right like

49:54

he'll dump truth bombs on you and

49:56

you're like And as a big point

49:58

you have to go you have to

50:00

go test it Right, so you're like,

50:02

I'm going to test that out. I

50:04

would be like, I kept coming up

50:06

to like that. I can't get to

50:08

a place where I'm like, that sounds

50:11

like I can get to where they're

50:13

wrong. Right. Right. So then, then, then

50:15

when they would say things that were

50:17

very like, well, Bitcoin's going to the

50:19

moon, Bitcoin's going to a million a coin

50:21

or ten million a coin. Well, all

50:23

these other things were proving out a

50:25

speculative person. That's what's what's what's what's

50:27

really. You know, when I talk to

50:29

people of Bitcoin, they think I'm a

50:32

sound like a speculator. And I'm moving

50:34

to Bitcoin. D risk my life. And,

50:36

but back then, I was looking at

50:38

it as speculative. And I was like, wow,

50:40

like maybe if I put a small amount of

50:42

money in this way they're sounding, like maybe

50:45

this thing is going to a million, this

50:47

cycle. And, you know, they started learning about

50:49

this after that, the crash, because I got

50:51

into Bitcoin, like November, like November 2nd 2017,

50:54

2017. Oh yeah, I mean I got started

50:56

a little earlier than you but I remember

50:58

that's the same thing. But then you know

51:00

you crash and you go from genius to

51:02

idiot. And you like do I sell it

51:04

all and go back to Fiat or do

51:07

I stay in this thing? Do I stay

51:09

in it and leave my position or even

51:11

increase my position and see this as an

51:13

opportunity? Yeah, I mean I got started a

51:15

little earlier than you but I remember that's

51:17

the same emotions like because it's

51:20

like. The money grew so exponentially

51:22

fast and then give it all back

51:24

in 18 and 19. Right. You feel

51:26

like an idiot. You know, eventually the

51:29

price went below my industry. Am I

51:31

still excited about this thing? Do I

51:33

still want to learn about this thing?

51:36

I mean, Bitcoin went below my initial

51:38

purchase prices. So I was sitting on a

51:40

negative bag. Yeah. And, but you do, you

51:42

have all those questions. It's like,

51:44

like, was I wrong? Because I was, I

51:47

believed strongly that I know. Right, you questioned

51:49

everything. Was that right now we're wrong? But

51:51

I guess that's, like you said though, you,

51:53

that question, instead of just giving

51:55

up, questioning and questioning and

51:57

questioning and questioning, got me to.

52:00

point was like, oh my god, I just

52:02

need to be buying as much as possible.

52:04

But you value to do some work during

52:06

that period. Read tomorrow, close us in a

52:08

podcast. It was like five podcasts a day.

52:10

It was like a second job. Yeah, it

52:12

was a second job for sure. And but

52:14

you get to the point and I remember making

52:16

this sense like I just have to buy a

52:18

lot, I have to buy a lot. And then it

52:20

went down to 3,000 and I was like, maybe

52:22

I'm wrong and I was afraid to touch it.

52:25

And then it came back up to

52:27

like, I don't know, six or seven or

52:30

ten and then it went and I'm like,

52:32

I got to buy, I got to buy, I got

52:34

to buy, and then boom back down to

52:36

3800. I was like, maybe I'm wrong.

52:38

Well, I remember. So, you know, you're

52:41

not alone if you're having these kind

52:43

of emotions, and which is why guys

52:45

that have been in a long time, like

52:47

Cedric, just say, like, buy it

52:49

to hold it to hold it, to

52:51

hold it, to never sell it, to

52:53

never sell it. And I don't know

52:55

how many opportunities we're going to have

52:57

like that going forward from, you know,

52:59

getting the crashes. Like, it's not making

53:01

you puke anymore, but for somebody else,

53:03

there might be things that make me

53:05

puke, I don't know, 500K and it

53:07

goes down to 100K, they're going to

53:09

feel pretty ill. Yeah, 100%. No, but

53:11

at 100K is when they should buy

53:13

and it should make them puke. I

53:15

remember American Hottle, like, so around 2019,

53:17

you know, I've done work now, I've done work

53:20

now, conviction through numbers, and then there's

53:22

like learning about other people's roller coaster

53:24

rides and hearing the anecdotes. And someone

53:26

like American Harrow was just really influential

53:28

from two perspectives from maybe like smash

53:30

buying during Lowe's, so like he was

53:32

like, he was like, he did a

53:34

tweet, he was like, wow, I just

53:37

bought a shit ton of GBTC at the time, I

53:39

guess he had money stuck in an account, and he

53:41

was like, and I just had to walk around

53:43

the block from not to not puke, you know,

53:45

and he's like that probably means it's a good

53:47

buy means it's a good buy, it's a good

53:50

buy. Yeah, you know and that over and so

53:52

you realize like when you don't want to buy

53:54

is when you should and you know, but the

53:56

man just hearing those things and so

53:58

the knowing that you you maybe miss

54:00

that moment, but then the next time

54:03

it goes from like 32 to 21,

54:05

you're like, oh man, like maybe this

54:07

is my American huddle moment, right? And

54:10

maybe this is my opportunity. And so

54:12

it's good to hear from other Bitcoiners

54:14

so that you can kind of learn

54:16

the ropes in advance of touching, so

54:19

you don't have to touch the stove

54:21

and make mistakes. But you can make

54:23

the most of your opportunities. I always

54:25

feel like everybody's gonna touch the stove

54:28

and get burned the first time. So

54:30

that's why I always try and set

54:32

people up to just. start small, let

54:34

that confidence build over time, and educate

54:37

yourself. As much as you want them

54:39

to, you know, you'll lo in with

54:41

everything they have, because you know... Well

54:43

now we're in a weird place with

54:46

Wall Street, like the ETF being the

54:48

most successful ETF of all time, I

54:50

mean, uh... The Powell's comparing Bitcoin to

54:53

gold. Like, you know, when I was

54:55

at 65, when I, when Bitcoin was

54:57

at 65K, and I was standing with

54:59

a neighbor, who's just, a guy in

55:02

IT. The last cycle, you mean, the

55:04

last cycle? The year, uh, just five

55:06

months ago. Okay, okay. Nine months ago,

55:08

whatever it was, when we were at

55:11

65K. Yeah. And, uh, this was after

55:13

the ETF. You know. kind of getting

55:15

to know each other and he's you

55:17

know another father in neighborhood he's in

55:20

IT you think he'd get it and

55:22

so at 65K I was like so

55:24

I just wanted to do a poll

55:27

like what do you think what do

55:29

you think of Bitcoin now and he's

55:31

like Bitcoin now what do I think

55:33

him I just don't know so you

55:36

could see there was just no work

55:38

yeah all you see is the movement

55:40

in price and he turned to me

55:42

and he said you know He had

55:45

just bought the house, you know, and

55:47

I think at peak, and he was

55:49

like, I wish I bought this house

55:51

in 2016. And you could see the

55:54

mindset of always being behind, right? And

55:56

so like, if you're bringing me something,

55:58

it must be behind. Like, there's nothing

56:00

I can get in front. of in

56:03

this world. And that's a mindset. Like

56:05

the first, like, Kahado talks about, the

56:07

first thing you have to do in

56:10

Bitcoin is love yourself. Like, start there,

56:12

like, believe that, like, what you find

56:14

and what you believe in is true.

56:16

And so, Bitcoin, like, helps people move

56:19

from belief to, like, it's just fact.

56:21

Okay, it's better built money. Like, it's

56:23

literally, like, it's hard to be like,

56:25

this is designed to go off forever,

56:28

what does that mean? What does that?

56:30

I agree. I mean, my first buy

56:32

was like 500 bucks. And then it

56:34

became 3,000. I was like, why the

56:37

hell did I not just yellow in

56:39

with everything? I thought it was an

56:41

unbelievable tech. Like, you know, you start

56:44

having all these self doubts. And so

56:46

it takes time to learn it. And

56:48

you can't be hard on yourself. I

56:50

mean, but the beauty is that takes

56:53

you to love yourself and believe in

56:55

yourself and that you could miss something

56:57

and still not miss out in time.

56:59

I mean, there's just so many factors

57:02

to that. Right. You have to not

57:04

want to be like everyone else in

57:06

a lot of ways. You just have

57:08

to, yeah, right, benefit yourself. Do what

57:11

you can do and benefit yourself. Right.

57:13

Because I think a lot of people

57:15

are like, wow, like if I go

57:17

into this weird thing and I lose,

57:20

and I lose it. right no and

57:22

someone will know and I'd rather go

57:24

down with everybody and not take a

57:27

chance yeah and hope that we all

57:29

you know all boats rise with the

57:31

tie yeah you know and it's like

57:33

you think about so the tide for

57:36

them is the S&P 500 and I

57:38

love saying this and young people kind

57:40

of get a kick out of it

57:42

but like and I consider myself young

57:45

so I'm not saying it like like

57:47

that but if say like anyone a

57:49

young set of mindset but like I'll

57:51

be like you know standard and poor

57:54

like what does it stand for it

57:56

stands for standard and poor I mean

57:58

like literally like that's the name of

58:00

like what you're putting your life saving

58:03

this standard and poor like like that's

58:05

it's built for you to be one

58:07

of the standard and poor is like

58:10

I mean that's what is designed for

58:12

And like, I don't know, you know,

58:14

there's like no one who's been like,

58:16

yeah, man, I got rich from investing

58:19

in the standard and pours. I mean,

58:21

they might. We need the exceptional and

58:23

rich index. So it's hard. I mean,

58:25

I don't know. And then there's a

58:28

link back, I mean, there's so much

58:30

that they have to be, not happy,

58:32

that they are thinking of beyond Bitcoin.

58:34

I mean, even just if they got

58:37

kids, they got brothers and sisters and

58:39

sisters, parents, I mean, I mean, lives

58:41

are so busy now. Wait a minute,

58:44

and you're telling me my money is

58:46

fucked. That's the, uh... Because the whole

58:48

game is to get more of this

58:50

money. That was the boss pitch, right?

58:53

For the kids. Do it for the

58:55

kids. And that is a good way,

58:57

I guess, to frame people's minds, if

58:59

they have kids. Sure, low time to

59:02

be like, low time to build, especially,

59:04

and build, you know. And I think,

59:06

you know, I think it's very fiat

59:08

to be like, like, I don't have

59:11

to get into... The conversation about politics

59:13

doesn't mean that I'm not concerned with

59:15

these issues or want to help do

59:17

things locally where it can have an

59:20

impact. But I just don't want to

59:22

talk to someone ad nauseum about something

59:24

that we can't solve and they're never

59:27

going to kind of agree on some

59:29

sort of North Pole of truth. Right?

59:31

Speaking of geopolitics. Excuse me. What do

59:33

you think about the ramping up of

59:36

the war right now? I don't, I

59:38

try not to think about it. I

59:40

know, it's horrid and disgusting, but this

59:42

is what I'm getting at. So when

59:45

I see, I see geopolitics, the debt

59:47

spiral, this new monetary frontier, all meeting

59:49

in the next three months, and it's

59:51

like fireworks. It's, it's, it's moment.

59:54

Or maybe it's maybe everything just

59:56

kind of keeps going. I don't

59:59

think so. It's possible though. Or

1:00:01

it's possible. Everything's possible. And Bitcoin

1:00:03

rises in price dramatically. I'm just

1:00:05

outlining my highest probability is shit's

1:00:08

about to get really chaotic. I

1:00:10

think we're kind of like in

1:00:12

the eye of the storm right

1:00:14

now. Obviously, I mean, I felt

1:00:17

like I was on the edge

1:00:19

of a hurricane literally and figuratively

1:00:21

going into the election. But now

1:00:23

I feel like we're kind of

1:00:26

the eye of the storm. and

1:00:29

we're just starting to feel the

1:00:31

winds blowing again and it's going

1:00:33

to get freaking nuts in the

1:00:35

first six months of his administration.

1:00:38

And I think that is literally

1:00:40

like Bitcoin's time to shine to

1:00:42

show the world that it is

1:00:44

a safe haven asset. This will

1:00:47

be like the first opportunity where

1:00:49

Bitcoin says it's a safe haven

1:00:51

asset and it becomes a safe

1:00:53

haven asset because So

1:00:56

many global fiat currencies are

1:00:58

going to be under stress

1:01:01

and decay. So many governments

1:01:03

are going to be under

1:01:05

stress and decay. And this

1:01:07

is literally the time when

1:01:09

Bitcoin becomes the life raft

1:01:11

for sovereigns. So if you

1:01:14

can get in there, if

1:01:16

you get into the boat

1:01:18

now, I think a year

1:01:20

from now, it'll be a

1:01:22

whole different world. I

1:01:25

think it's like literally the setting

1:01:28

of the new playing field, the

1:01:30

setting of new rules, the Breton

1:01:32

Woods 2.0, if you want to

1:01:34

call it that, but we're going

1:01:37

to have that level of change

1:01:39

over the next six months to

1:01:41

a year. And it doesn't feel

1:01:43

that way right now. I feel

1:01:45

totally hopeful, but when I look

1:01:48

at the little cauldrons that are

1:01:50

spinning around the globe and in

1:01:52

economics and in the financial system,

1:01:54

I'm like, oh, this is going

1:01:57

to get, this thing's about to

1:01:59

blow to blow. Where is the

1:02:01

gold? And I don't know I

1:02:03

know I know you mean I

1:02:06

don't mean like the other conspiracy.

1:02:08

I mean like I know there's

1:02:10

a lot of gold in America

1:02:12

Where is more gold? Where is

1:02:15

more gold? Where? Apparently there's three

1:02:17

more trillion in El Salvador than

1:02:19

yesterday. Known gold. Where are the

1:02:21

biggest vaults of gold? Switzerland? Switzerland?

1:02:24

Anywhere else? I mean, I know

1:02:26

there's others, but I don't know

1:02:28

exactly. I think there's something like

1:02:30

in Argentina, right? I don't know

1:02:32

if they hold it with the

1:02:35

Bank of England. I don't know

1:02:37

where the gold is. And I

1:02:39

wonder for- There's vaults, obviously, in-

1:02:41

lots of parts of the world,

1:02:44

but I mean the big vaults,

1:02:46

the store bullion, the big, big,

1:02:48

big, big vaults, I believe, are

1:02:50

all in Switzerland for the most

1:02:53

part. But then you got... I

1:02:55

ran Syria, like, uh... Yeah, are

1:02:57

they buying a store in there?

1:02:59

Because, well, my question is if

1:03:02

you're getting... Well, what I'm really

1:03:04

getting at is if there's actual

1:03:06

ground war. Yeah. And assets are

1:03:08

actually being at risk of risk

1:03:10

of being stolen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you've got

1:03:17

to sell the gold out the

1:03:19

back door before it gets taken

1:03:22

from you. Yeah, I hadn't thought

1:03:24

about that. Right. Or even your

1:03:26

IOU, maybe, you know, your gold

1:03:28

is in America, but it's not

1:03:31

being repatriated ever. Right. Like if

1:03:33

you have gold in America and

1:03:35

you're not an ally of America,

1:03:37

you would want to sell it

1:03:40

or get it out or, you

1:03:42

know, or you lose it. And

1:03:44

then China is trying to move

1:03:46

as much gold into their own

1:03:49

country. Right. you know, could we

1:03:51

get their gold? Or, you know,

1:03:53

not we being like, oh, it's

1:03:55

root for that, but I mean,

1:03:57

like, if actual gold is at

1:04:00

risk, then most people need to

1:04:02

move away from physical assets that

1:04:04

are at risk towards digital assets

1:04:06

that are not, that are more

1:04:09

highly more defensible. I was thinking

1:04:11

more in terms of like, as

1:04:13

war, like, Ukraine heats up. Syria

1:04:15

gets worse, Libya, all the stands,

1:04:18

you know, everything's right. The Israeli

1:04:20

front, I think it all heats

1:04:22

up. And as that happens, that's

1:04:24

gonna put immense amount of stress

1:04:27

on Fiat. Fiat's gonna get debased.

1:04:29

Sure, to pay for war. Pay

1:04:31

for war, also the risk of

1:04:33

having your dollars in a financial

1:04:36

system that is under the stress

1:04:38

of war. And if that does

1:04:40

what I think it's going to

1:04:42

do, I think there's going to

1:04:44

be a flight to Bitcoin, like

1:04:47

you can't imagine. Right, and the

1:04:49

national winner of that race, the

1:04:51

state winner of that race gets

1:04:53

to set the new Brenton Woods.

1:04:56

Yes. Right, I see where you're

1:04:58

going with this. Yeah. That makes,

1:05:00

that's like a two-a-four-year process before

1:05:02

we even get to that moment.

1:05:05

But I think the race starts

1:05:07

in Trump. Right, right. So they

1:05:09

have to mess a stockpile before

1:05:11

you go to the next agreement.

1:05:14

This is why we blew out

1:05:16

to 100 game. We're probably going

1:05:18

120, 150 before Trump gets into

1:05:20

office. Trump gets into office and

1:05:22

then it's a formal game on.

1:05:25

And at that point, I think

1:05:27

it becomes such a mad dash

1:05:29

for the exit that the Fiat

1:05:31

globally starts to feel the pressure.

1:05:34

So you could do a lot

1:05:36

of Like he could do tariffs

1:05:38

and he could do other things

1:05:40

that are pro dollar strength, but

1:05:43

people around the world could be

1:05:45

dumping dollars to buy Bitcoin. Net,

1:05:47

we could have a dropping dollar.

1:05:49

It's in our best interest to

1:05:52

have a dropping dollar. If he

1:05:54

wants to reshore manufacturing, if he

1:05:56

wants to drive economic growth, he

1:05:58

needs a weaker dollar. But normally

1:06:01

in a time of war. You

1:06:03

would see the dollar as a

1:06:05

safe haven asset and you would

1:06:07

see that dollar rise. I think

1:06:09

the dollar... going to get sold

1:06:12

along with everything else and the

1:06:14

flight to gold and Bitcoin is

1:06:16

going to be real. That's good.

1:06:18

That stress actually kind of supports

1:06:21

the long term Trump administration goals

1:06:23

of rebuilding America as a manufacturing

1:06:25

base, re employing people, creating an

1:06:27

export market market that goes. So

1:06:30

I think that this is like

1:06:32

the point in history that we've

1:06:34

been waiting for where Bitcoin just

1:06:37

all of a sudden becomes like,

1:06:39

oh, it is a safe haven

1:06:41

asset. And then coming out of

1:06:43

the back of that, like you

1:06:45

said, if we have the strategic

1:06:47

reserve or the Bitcoin stockpile or

1:06:50

however it gets defined, and we're

1:06:52

actually adding Bitcoin to our balance

1:06:54

sheet, then yeah, I think we

1:06:56

have a seat at that table

1:06:58

and maybe the strongest seat of

1:07:00

that table. I want to invite

1:07:02

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1:07:58

excited to see you guys there.

1:08:00

And now, back to the show.

1:08:03

I mean, I would love to

1:08:05

see Bitcoin extremely more non-correlated with

1:08:07

the rest of the market and

1:08:09

demonstrate that value that you're saying.

1:08:11

I mean, I just get nervous

1:08:13

thinking about. Let me ask you

1:08:15

this though. Do you think that

1:08:18

that correlation is... I think that

1:08:20

just is a factor of the

1:08:22

four-year cycle. Right because you could

1:08:24

look at Bitcoin in any part

1:08:26

of the cycle But that four-year

1:08:28

cycle is so so consistent You

1:08:30

can be like oh, yeah. Well

1:08:33

in this part of the four-year

1:08:35

cycle We are trending with the

1:08:37

expansion of the monetary system and

1:08:39

therefore everything's bullish right and at

1:08:41

this part of the cycle We're

1:08:43

trending down because you know, we're

1:08:45

pulling monetary units out of the

1:08:48

system and and Bitcoin is dropping

1:08:50

and so is everything else. I

1:08:52

think that I don't think that's

1:08:54

a Bitcoin being correlated, I think

1:08:56

that's Bitcoin just being a monetary

1:08:58

sponge. Right. And we're at a

1:09:00

point in time in history where

1:09:03

the debt spiral so big that

1:09:05

it's everything up, everything down, everything

1:09:07

down, everything down, everything's one, right?

1:09:09

And so you just, you know,

1:09:11

Bitcoin being the asset that goes

1:09:13

up the most. Right, right. So

1:09:16

in a world where everything is

1:09:18

correlated and you look across that

1:09:20

world, it's hard to invest in

1:09:22

anything but I

1:09:24

would agree, I mean, it's a simply

1:09:26

a B test. And so surprising now,

1:09:28

just discussing with people Bitcoin, I mean,

1:09:31

just the evidence we have in front

1:09:33

of us of what's happening geopolitically, what's

1:09:35

happening economically, the financialization of Bitcoin, the

1:09:37

conversation. It's surprising, more people aren't just

1:09:40

catching on. But I think a lot

1:09:42

of that is just, I don't know

1:09:44

if it's nihilism, I don't know if

1:09:46

it's arrogance or, you know, lack of

1:09:48

humility, but it's... still surprising to see

1:09:51

it just not being a no-brainer for

1:09:53

more people. And like you said, I

1:09:55

think we're getting very close to the

1:09:57

suddenly part. Yes, the suddenly part, exactly.

1:09:59

That's another. to say it. Yeah, and

1:10:02

you know, I think even if, you

1:10:04

know, I'd love to say, you know,

1:10:06

we all hope for like, you know,

1:10:08

things like retail, our friends and family

1:10:10

to, you know, get on the Bitcoin

1:10:13

standard. And I think anyone who gets

1:10:15

on now is still early. I think

1:10:17

we sell greater returns in front of

1:10:19

us. But I think just quite frankly,

1:10:21

you know, the real money that's going

1:10:24

to move us is not going to

1:10:26

be retail. Like retail, I don't think

1:10:28

we can't come back in a stampede.

1:10:30

I think if institutions come in as

1:10:32

stampede, they just have that much more

1:10:35

capital and will drive the market that

1:10:37

much more. I think that's absolutely where

1:10:39

we're at. Yeah, and we're seeing it

1:10:41

now with, I mean, Microsoft is voting

1:10:43

on it today. I don't think they'll

1:10:46

pass, but like Amazon, I think it

1:10:48

gets to vote on it. Like, it's

1:10:50

just becoming way more of like, that's

1:10:52

now going to be standard protocol. Yes.

1:10:54

And it's going to be. You know,

1:10:57

the Microsoft thing, if they don't take

1:10:59

it, is going to be one of

1:11:01

those sort of like Paul Krogwin fax

1:11:03

machine moments. Yes. Right. And the real

1:11:05

irony and the laugh is going to

1:11:08

be when micro strategy buys Microsoft. Oh

1:11:10

my God. You know, at the end

1:11:12

of this cycle. You know, because micro

1:11:14

strategy is like, yeah, we could use

1:11:17

a little software business. Yeah. Right. and

1:11:19

FASB is really a game changer right

1:11:21

from an accounting perspective. It's just it's

1:11:23

beyond the scope of like game changer.

1:11:25

Maybe explain explain to me how how

1:11:28

you think that's going to impact you

1:11:30

mean do you think that just mean

1:11:32

a flood of corporates are coming because

1:11:34

of that? Well it makes it a

1:11:36

lot easier to carry Bitcoin on your

1:11:39

balance sheet and benefit from the price

1:11:41

appreciation. So right now the way Bitcoin

1:11:43

is carried on the balance sheet you

1:11:45

can only recognize price depreciation. So you

1:11:47

take a hit and the only you

1:11:50

basically mark the market on every low

1:11:52

is that to the low, right? And

1:11:54

then you don't mark to market back

1:11:56

to any highs or any increases in

1:11:58

price. The new rules have had. will

1:12:01

allow you to market to market and

1:12:03

take I believe the earnings to maybe

1:12:05

even realized earnings. But so

1:12:07

over the last year or

1:12:09

so I mean Microsoft micro

1:12:11

strategy has been showing negative earnings

1:12:14

every quarter. So to in Q1

1:12:16

which will be like when they

1:12:18

report like will be in April

1:12:20

of 2025 or May of 2025

1:12:22

they'll have to restate the prior

1:12:25

year and capture all the losses

1:12:27

as earnings in Q1. So

1:12:29

but I mean they don't have to

1:12:31

pay tax on that do they if

1:12:33

it's just capital gains? Is that's getting

1:12:36

a little bit above my pay grade?

1:12:38

No, I don't think you're going to

1:12:40

pay tax on it because I don't

1:12:42

think it's going to flow through net

1:12:45

income like that. Okay. But it's not

1:12:47

earnings per se, but it's a yeah, so

1:12:49

it's not taxable earnings. It's their

1:12:51

balance sheet. Yeah, but it'll flow

1:12:53

through EPS I believe. If a

1:12:56

company owned a bunch of brick

1:12:58

and mortar. and the value of the

1:13:00

real estate was going up. Right, but

1:13:02

you only, like, you marked it down

1:13:05

when, like, there was a real estate

1:13:07

crash, now you own all this real

1:13:09

estate. I mean, most small businesses and

1:13:11

even corporations, how they really have made

1:13:14

money over the last 50 years was

1:13:16

from the real estate assets. You know,

1:13:18

the plumber, like, he bought the shop,

1:13:20

he made his salary every year, you

1:13:23

know, you hear all these stories nowadays

1:13:25

on Twitter, I don't know if they're

1:13:27

all true, and I don't think. just

1:13:29

enhancing marketing. I think that's a lot

1:13:32

of it's bullshit. But think about it.

1:13:34

Think about what you just said, and

1:13:36

it just struck me real quickly. You're,

1:13:38

these guys would, I mean, all of

1:13:40

us, right? We go work for our salary,

1:13:42

and it was the assets that made

1:13:44

us wealthy. Yes. And if you made

1:13:46

just, if you could just extract 5%

1:13:48

out of that income. and you put

1:13:51

that into assets, that's how you got

1:13:53

wealthy. Or leverage the asset that you

1:13:55

own, the existing asset. No. And use,

1:13:57

because you didn't need repairs and maintenance

1:13:59

on your building. So you need maintenance reserves,

1:14:01

put those in Bitcoin, take the cash flow

1:14:03

from the tenants or whatever, and put that

1:14:05

in Bitcoin. Right. This is what I was

1:14:07

getting at, is that imagine a future where

1:14:09

you're still the plumber, you're still the electrician,

1:14:11

you're still the guy mowing lawns, you're still

1:14:14

making your 10% margin, you're going to use

1:14:16

95% of that to pay your bills, and

1:14:18

you're going to take that little 5% that's

1:14:20

left, and you're going to invest in a

1:14:22

Bitcoin. Or imagine you'd just get paid in

1:14:24

Bitcoin. Right. And you're getting paid in the

1:14:26

asset. So now you take that point five

1:14:28

percent, you don't even have to convert it,

1:14:31

it just sits on your balance sheet and

1:14:33

that builds your wealth. So running a business

1:14:35

where you're earning Bitcoin, I don't know, Peter

1:14:37

McCormick did this, right? I mean, that's just

1:14:39

running in his podcast and saving his Bitcoin.

1:14:41

Well, biblically speaking, you'd want to have a

1:14:43

third of your wealth in like your home.

1:14:45

a third of your wealth in your business,

1:14:48

maybe you have a garment business and you

1:14:50

have to have inventory, you own a third

1:14:52

of your wealth in money, at the time

1:14:54

it was gold, right? So you have, that's

1:14:56

your savings, you have a third of your

1:14:58

wealth in liquid savings, a third of your

1:15:00

wealth in liquid savings, a third of your

1:15:02

wealth probably in the business you run, maybe

1:15:04

your W-2, so your balance, your balance, you

1:15:07

look different. But if you own your business,

1:15:09

you own inventory, then maybe a third of

1:15:11

your balance, a third of your balance, a

1:15:13

third of your balance, a third of your

1:15:15

balance, a third of your balance, balance, a

1:15:17

third of your balance, balance, a third of

1:15:19

your balance, a third of your balance, balance,

1:15:21

a third of your balance, balance, your balance,

1:15:24

your balance, your balance, your balance, your balance,

1:15:26

your balance, You know property taxes sort of

1:15:28

changed the conversation about owning a home, but

1:15:30

this is from the perspective of like stability

1:15:32

in owning a home. Maybe some of your

1:15:34

wealth is in there. And that makes sense

1:15:36

when your home has just been sold to

1:15:38

you at utility value, right? By the way,

1:15:41

I've been talking to a company, Orange Bridge.

1:15:43

These guys... They're going back loans? No. So

1:15:45

what they're doing is they're doing a non-interest

1:15:47

line of credit... I mean, the interest of

1:15:49

Cruz, but you don't have to pay monthly

1:15:51

interest. Line of credit against your home that

1:15:53

has to be used to buy Bitcoin. And

1:15:55

then when you buy the Bitcoin, it's... they

1:15:58

record the value that you paid for and

1:16:00

they're watching the value and then they start

1:16:02

messaging when it's up 300% like you should

1:16:04

pay off your loan, you should pay off

1:16:06

your loan, you should pay off your loan.

1:16:08

They try and get you to sell and

1:16:10

clear out that loan, but it's like a

1:16:12

10-year loan. We don't have to make a

1:16:15

payment, but the interest just accrues. And as

1:16:17

long as your Bitcoin is growing faster than

1:16:19

that accrument, it's basically double secured, right? The

1:16:21

loan is secured against the Bitcoin and the

1:16:23

Bitcoin and the real estate and the real

1:16:25

estate. Right and every

1:16:27

vertical from life insurance that's all health

1:16:29

insurance It all should be backed by

1:16:32

Bitcoin. Yeah, the reserves right right now

1:16:34

life insurance companies or insurance companies can't

1:16:36

buy spot Bitcoin right FEMA needs to

1:16:38

get off their button by Bitcoin to

1:16:41

pay for all these hurricanes Or maybe

1:16:43

stop causing the hurricanes. I don't know.

1:16:45

Yeah, right exactly maybe spend less on

1:16:47

the hurricane production. That's our other podcast

1:16:49

right But I mean there's a whole

1:16:52

market for people like what micro strategy

1:16:54

is sort of brilliantly engineering is refining

1:16:56

Bitcoin for the market that can't buy

1:16:58

spot Bitcoin and wants price exposure to

1:17:00

Bitcoin. So I mean that's brilliant. I

1:17:03

wonder when he went from like I'm

1:17:05

using Bitcoin as a story value to

1:17:07

like I'm gonna be a Bitcoin evangelist.

1:17:09

and you know get other companies on

1:17:12

board and like get my store value

1:17:14

to better to I'm refining Bitcoin because

1:17:16

those are defining you know the refining

1:17:18

Bitcoin moment to me is sort of

1:17:20

like you know you know Jeff Bezos

1:17:23

knew he was attacking he probably knew

1:17:25

he was attacking all realist all Retail

1:17:27

verticals before everyone else because everyone else

1:17:29

just thought he was attacking books Right

1:17:31

yeah, but he's like I'm doing every

1:17:34

vertical. It just hasn't happened yet But

1:17:36

he didn't see AWS and cloud computing

1:17:38

coming Right like he even he didn't

1:17:40

know that was going to be you

1:17:43

know 66% of Amazon's business 20 years

1:17:45

from when he started so I don't

1:17:47

think Michael Sailor necessarily saw Bitcoin refining

1:17:49

the way, you know, he's describing how

1:17:51

Rockefeller refined oil from the gas market

1:17:54

the way. I don't think he thought

1:17:56

of that four years ago. I wonder

1:17:58

when he had that light bulb moment

1:18:00

that it was much bigger than just,

1:18:02

you know, stacking his own balance sheet

1:18:05

with reserves. You know. I mean, do

1:18:07

you think he's building essentially a Bitcoin

1:18:09

financial services firm over the long term?

1:18:11

Yeah, I think it goes way beyond

1:18:14

that. I think it's like a perfect

1:18:16

pathway type entity. It's just a massive

1:18:18

conglomerate. Like what I'm trying to say,

1:18:20

there's so many things he's as large

1:18:22

as holder. So you think they're going

1:18:25

to buy other other businesses. I don't

1:18:27

know what they're going to do, but

1:18:29

as the largest holder of Bitcoin, there'll

1:18:31

be things that we can't even dream

1:18:33

of that they'll be able to exploit

1:18:36

from a monetization, financialization perspective, whether it's

1:18:38

loaning out the Bitcoin or, I don't

1:18:40

know. But they're going to use that

1:18:42

in ways that in ways that would

1:18:45

be very profitable. Right now, it's just

1:18:47

profitable buying the Bitcoin and giving the

1:18:49

bond market exposure. I mean, that's a

1:18:51

hundred trillion dollar market or two hundred

1:18:53

trillion dollar market that he's gonna, that

1:18:56

every company is copycatting him. And that's

1:18:58

the thing, it's back to what we

1:19:00

talked about in the beginning of the

1:19:02

show, like he can do this and

1:19:04

he can open source what he's doing.

1:19:07

And two things. One, it's a win-win

1:19:09

for everybody. He's in a special situation.

1:19:11

He's the first mover. there is first

1:19:13

mover advantage to buying Bitcoin in 2010

1:19:16

than there is to buying in 2020.

1:19:18

You might have bought in 2020, 2010,

1:19:20

sold in 2014, and maybe the guy

1:19:22

in 2020 who buys has a second

1:19:24

weird mover advantage over you, but like

1:19:27

it definitely would have been better to

1:19:29

hold from 2010. All right, so like

1:19:31

micro strategy could fumble this somehow, but

1:19:33

like no one's gonna catch them, no

1:19:36

private entity. Right, right. So whatever like

1:19:38

any entity is able to do with

1:19:40

sort of a large size of Bitcoin,

1:19:42

they will be able to do to

1:19:44

do to the greatest extent. to the

1:19:47

greatest extent. Like other companies can copy

1:19:49

Berks or halfway, but if you don't

1:19:51

have the capital pool Like there's only

1:19:53

so many deals you can make you

1:19:55

have less and you have less of

1:19:58

a deal flow Less people coming to

1:20:00

you right so you have less is

1:20:02

let me think about like if it's

1:20:04

like he buys a financial they buy

1:20:07

a country It's gonna get crazy It's

1:20:09

gonna get crazy. And I don't know

1:20:11

what he's gonna do. But like and

1:20:13

I think new ideas are gonna be

1:20:15

brought to from the smartest people in

1:20:18

the world because it's kind of like

1:20:20

if you want to build somewhere where

1:20:22

it's gonna last forever, then you gotta

1:20:24

build on Bitcoin, right? Does he own

1:20:26

more than Satoshi, no? Does the company

1:20:29

own more than Satoshi? No, I don't

1:20:31

think so. That's also something I thought

1:20:33

about on the way over here, like,

1:20:35

it's been extremely quiet, his buys. Like,

1:20:38

we always hear every week now microstrategies

1:20:40

buys, but like, we even heard a

1:20:42

peep about his personal holdings, and I

1:20:44

think a long time. And you'd have

1:20:46

to think from a personal standpoint, from

1:20:49

a personal standpoint, even whatever his end

1:20:51

goal is to give it's end goal

1:20:53

is to give it's to give it,

1:20:55

like, like, like, Ego wise like he

1:20:57

has to be buying he has to

1:21:00

be buying a shit ton personally Because

1:21:02

he doesn't even his shares in micro

1:21:04

strategy are not real Bitcoin right so

1:21:06

yeah, and you know, he's not the

1:21:09

largest probably shareholder of micro strategy So

1:21:11

he probably wants just from his own

1:21:13

personal standpoint his own stash, but we

1:21:15

don't hear about it. Oh, I wonder

1:21:17

if he even can be in charge

1:21:20

of that as his personal stat or

1:21:22

like the like can he deduct the

1:21:24

buys and Be working at microstrategies saying

1:21:26

yeah, we should buy more Bitcoin like

1:21:28

engineering debt to buy more Bitcoin a

1:21:31

micro strategy while Simultaneously buying it for

1:21:33

himself. I hope he's allowed to at

1:21:35

least maybe algorithmically buy and just something

1:21:37

like that I'm gonna buy a minute

1:21:40

He might have somebody doing it for

1:21:42

him right on his behalf like a

1:21:44

blind trust. Yeah, something like that right

1:21:46

sure I don't know then how you

1:21:48

know, I'd also wonder how someone maybe

1:21:51

it's not because it's commodity maybe it's

1:21:53

not even an issue I don't know.

1:21:55

But I really, I also think like,

1:21:57

so he's in a position where he

1:21:59

just sees even from a personal, like,

1:22:02

I couldn't see things as a minor's

1:22:04

perspective truly until I start. being part

1:22:06

of a mining farm. Like you could

1:22:08

read an article, you think that's a

1:22:11

terror, you could philosophize about it, you

1:22:13

could intellectualize about it, but you're going

1:22:15

to discover new things as a minor

1:22:17

than you would have before. And so

1:22:19

like I think for Michael Saylor he's

1:22:22

brilliant, but he had a $500 million

1:22:24

melting ice cube, right? So he had

1:22:26

a problem to solve. And so it's

1:22:28

interesting how I wonder what he's trying

1:22:30

to look at now and where he's

1:22:33

angling to figure out new things. develop

1:22:35

new solutions or come to solutions sooner

1:22:37

than people who don't have that problem.

1:22:39

And the size of the problem brings

1:22:42

it to the forefront of your life,

1:22:44

I think, faster. He seems very pro-America

1:22:46

also. Do you think there's any plans

1:22:48

there to gift America, Bitcoin? I mean,

1:22:50

I'm, I'm, I think there could be,

1:22:53

I mean, why couldn't America be looking

1:22:55

at his. Stash and it is a

1:22:57

massive honeypot. No, I know, like putting

1:22:59

the 60 102 aside, like thinking in

1:23:01

terms of like, his own personal stash,

1:23:04

like, could he gift some of that

1:23:06

to the treasury? I mean, micro strategy,

1:23:08

I mean, America might just come to

1:23:10

micro strategy and say, we're going to

1:23:13

give you $100,000 per share. Right. We're

1:23:15

literally going to print some number that

1:23:17

you're going to be OK with, and

1:23:19

we're going to be OK with, and

1:23:21

we're going to be OK. take the,

1:23:24

I mean they could just do things.

1:23:26

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think your

1:23:28

question inside is like, is Michael Seller

1:23:30

aware of anything ahead of time? Like

1:23:32

is there, you know, a handshake that

1:23:35

I'm acquiring all this? On behalf of?

1:23:37

On behalf of the government for future

1:23:39

use. Yeah. And I think, you know,

1:23:41

I think that's where I think, regardless

1:23:44

of whether that happened or not, I

1:23:46

still think it's the most brilliantly engineered

1:23:48

security in the history of the stock

1:23:50

market, not just for what he's already

1:23:52

accomplished, but for what is going to

1:23:55

be accomplished. And that just, but it

1:23:57

also points out very clear, it's. not

1:23:59

Bitcoin. You're not getting any of the

1:24:01

attributes of Bitcoin. You have, you have

1:24:03

counterparty risk. You have managerial risk. You

1:24:06

have custodian risk. You have all of

1:24:08

it. So, you know, it's not, it's

1:24:10

not for people who want the qualities

1:24:12

of Bitcoin. And maybe there are Bitcoiners

1:24:15

who have money trapped in the system,

1:24:17

but he's not. he's not trying to

1:24:19

sell you and me micro strategy shares

1:24:21

right he is really going after an

1:24:23

institutional market it's not for retail retail

1:24:26

might capitalize on it want to get

1:24:28

involved in it but yeah you you

1:24:30

can get rug pulled you have to

1:24:32

think defensively with him just like or

1:24:34

not him personally maybe i mean you

1:24:37

should but just anybody personally and any

1:24:39

company and so it's not real Bitcoin

1:24:41

and all those fears and concerns to

1:24:43

be there right i think it's like

1:24:46

a weird thing because i think like

1:24:48

Also for Bitcoiners is the sort of

1:24:50

the trying to figure out the balance

1:24:52

of like okay I have This this

1:24:54

wealth in this new paradigm and I

1:24:57

now have custody of it But now

1:24:59

you become your own counterparty risk, right?

1:25:01

How do you manage your Bitcoin? And

1:25:03

your counterparty risk to your maybe relatives

1:25:05

and your heirs right because like just

1:25:08

like if you lose your money at

1:25:10

the bank you go to the bank

1:25:12

and you get back from them Well

1:25:14

your family is like well now you're

1:25:17

the bank Right? Dad, mom, like, if

1:25:19

you lose the Bitcoin, like, what do

1:25:21

we get? Right? You're our counterparty risk.

1:25:23

And so you have to learn how

1:25:25

to manage. Like, I wonder how Michael

1:25:28

Seller manages his personal stack. Like, how

1:25:30

does he get comfort with the guy

1:25:32

who owns the blind trust and manages

1:25:34

a stack for him, maybe? Right. Like,

1:25:37

does he have a key of three?

1:25:39

You know, is he had on chain

1:25:41

and coin base and him and on

1:25:43

chain to get on a call? He's

1:25:45

like, and I got me. But like

1:25:48

only one of you could lose a

1:25:50

key, like, so can I see your

1:25:52

system? Like, you know, is he at

1:25:54

on ramp and it's at 100 different

1:25:56

places? Is he with the Bitcoin advisor?

1:25:59

Like, what is he doing? Is he

1:26:01

just got his own little, like, coal

1:26:03

card? Like, and what does my strategy

1:26:05

do? And like, I really do think

1:26:08

if you have- My best strategy, if

1:26:10

I remember- I think his, didn't he

1:26:12

buy originally a coin base? I don't

1:26:14

know if they still do. Yeah, and

1:26:16

I think they still have, but what

1:26:19

does that look like? And how do

1:26:21

you gain comfort, right? And how does

1:26:23

coin base? gain comfort. And it's a

1:26:25

much different thing. If you have a

1:26:27

thousand dollars in Bitcoin, your security system

1:26:30

is different than if you have 10,000,

1:26:32

then if you're 100,000, and there are

1:26:34

numbers that you and I can't even

1:26:36

can fathom what it's like to protect

1:26:39

that. Because we're nowhere near these levels,

1:26:41

right? Because you have a billion dollars

1:26:43

in a multi-sig, like who's in the

1:26:45

multi-sig? Is it a, you know, is

1:26:47

it an end of 12? Like, what

1:26:50

are we doing, what are we doing

1:26:52

here? You know, is there an article

1:26:54

that like 97 keys is worse than

1:26:56

a three? I saw that didn't Black

1:26:58

Rock just split their entire pile up

1:27:01

into like wallets with 400 400 coins

1:27:03

each? Maybe. I think they're diversifying even.

1:27:05

And I'm sure there's a multiple multi-six.

1:27:07

I'm sure you can find some guru

1:27:10

on Twitter is like that's the worst

1:27:12

way to go. Right, sure. Right. And

1:27:14

then Coinbase has their guy who's like,

1:27:16

we thought about this very deeply and

1:27:18

we have our reasons why we don't

1:27:21

like your solution because we're, because we

1:27:23

can't do that and we're a public

1:27:25

company. So like we just, we literally

1:27:27

cannot do what you just suggested, even

1:27:29

though it's better. Right. So good luck.

1:27:32

Parnman and grow your stack up to

1:27:34

$400,000 coin and utilize your plan then.

1:27:36

And then people who say like, like,

1:27:38

oh, this might be bad for the

1:27:41

for the network. who holds the coins,

1:27:43

right? And whether it's an IOU or

1:27:45

there's shares involved or whatever, I mean,

1:27:47

but there's no way to fathom the

1:27:49

way he's looking at these problems. And

1:27:52

there's no way to fathom the solutions

1:27:54

that are being brought to him and

1:27:56

weighing through that. And like, could you

1:27:58

imagine, like, you think about it for

1:28:00

three months and then have to, like,

1:28:03

you, like, we're the proof of reserves

1:28:05

on. You know, I'd like to see

1:28:07

that on micro strategy coins. Yeah, you

1:28:09

know, that would be good to see

1:28:12

as a public company that's at the

1:28:14

forefront of Yeah, I think it just

1:28:16

disclosed. It's just disclosed more I think

1:28:18

there and that's I mean, maybe they

1:28:20

can't for some reason Yeah, maybe not

1:28:23

with their current setup. I don't mean

1:28:25

like they can't because of laws or

1:28:27

something I don't know yeah but like

1:28:29

we don't know the issues they're facing

1:28:31

and and the risk they're trying to

1:28:34

avoid or decrease or minimize like yeah

1:28:36

we could do that but then we

1:28:38

open ourselves up to this conversation and

1:28:40

that and maybe we'll do that in

1:28:43

six months if we can you know

1:28:45

I think I saw south door protect

1:28:47

their coins like how do they know

1:28:49

this guy doesn't get on a plane

1:28:51

how did the Central Reserve think I

1:28:54

don't know how does like how does

1:28:56

bouquetly get comfortable that it's not going

1:28:58

to be taken be taken from the

1:29:00

country That's not going to be taken

1:29:02

from him. How does the country get

1:29:05

comfortable that he's not going to take

1:29:07

it? I mean, and it's not like

1:29:09

they can have a real open forum

1:29:11

discussion on this. Right? But I would,

1:29:14

their solutions would probably be of interest

1:29:16

to people trying to figure out the

1:29:18

pros and cons of different, because there

1:29:20

are always pros and cons of your

1:29:22

choices. And you're never getting until like

1:29:25

no cons. That's an interesting question, because

1:29:27

it is a central reserve bank holding

1:29:29

Bitcoin. Right. I mean, do they have

1:29:31

a key and Antarctica buried? We're like

1:29:33

three guys know about it, you know?

1:29:36

I hope not. That's where all the

1:29:38

Rotillians are. Right. So, yeah, fair enough.

1:29:40

So, but he knows about them, right?

1:29:42

But like, yeah, I don't know how

1:29:45

they manage that. And it'd be interesting,

1:29:47

it'd be interesting conversation between Buchaley and

1:29:49

Sailor. Like, if they felt they weren't

1:29:51

recorded, like, what would they talk about?

1:29:53

Right. And would they... Hey bro, how

1:29:56

are you holding rookies? Yeah, like, what's

1:29:58

your plan? Like, you know, and just,

1:30:00

you know, what they would share, what

1:30:02

people in that position would share if

1:30:04

they could speak off the record? Right.

1:30:07

Because they're having experiences that most people

1:30:09

can't relate to. Yeah. You know, even

1:30:11

if it's just scary. you know. Yeah,

1:30:13

that's surprise. It's wild. The coin base

1:30:16

is the one that's getting so much

1:30:18

of this custody. Yeah, I don't like

1:30:20

that. I mean, they must be according.

1:30:22

I mean, they must be good at

1:30:24

it. But I wonder if it's just

1:30:27

because they're publicly traded. That's a big.

1:30:29

Hopefully it's not. Hopefully it's because their

1:30:31

security practices are so good. Yeah, I

1:30:33

mean I don't know if it's because

1:30:35

it's I think it's because they got

1:30:38

first mover advantage and they're the largest

1:30:40

I think But I would think that

1:30:42

if any company took it further to

1:30:44

do their due diligence who do micro

1:30:47

strategy I guess you a lot of

1:30:49

companies like because Fidelity is the only

1:30:51

one that custody is their own Right

1:30:53

and that's another company like I hate

1:30:55

you the word trust, but like you

1:30:58

argue there's an element of trust in

1:31:00

everything you do besides and everything you

1:31:02

do besides and your your stash of

1:31:04

satosies. for hundreds of years they manage

1:31:06

trillions of dollars it seems like a

1:31:09

very reputable incredible institution. Do you think

1:31:11

there'll be I got this is just

1:31:13

a gut feeling that there will be

1:31:15

the first ETF that will have an

1:31:18

in-kind distribution? Like out of the fun.

1:31:20

Let you take the Bitcoin. I don't

1:31:22

know if any UTFs ever going to

1:31:24

do that you think that's I think

1:31:26

Fidelity is going to do that to

1:31:29

be more competitive Maybe if that's part

1:31:31

of their wealth management business and getting

1:31:33

people to I know that they offer

1:31:35

They offer real Bitcoin they offer real

1:31:38

Bitcoin to their real Bitcoin to their