0:00

Today's episode is brought to you by

0:02

the crowdfunding nerds Academy, a series of

0:04

online courses that will show you how

0:06

to run Facebook ads, optimize your crowdfunding

0:08

campaign, and do email marketing like a

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pro. Now I've been working with Andrew

0:12

and his team at crowdfunding nerds for

0:14

years now, several years, and they've helped

0:16

me raise, I don't know, coming up

0:18

on a million dollars total over the

0:20

course of about 20 campaigns. I've run

0:22

15 successful campaigns in the last 15

0:24

months through my Solo Game of the

0:26

Month series on Game Found, and Andrew

0:29

has been there every step of the

0:31

way, helping me figure out... all the

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different things that go into marketing, especially

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for my case, Facebook ads. And they've

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just been an excellent, excellent partner

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in my journey as a publishing company.

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And now that they're offering this online

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course, I reached out to Andrew and

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I said, hey man, let me put

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it out to the Borgame Design Lab

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community. I obviously believe in this stuff.

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This is a lot of learnings and

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a lot of information and things that

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I've been able to be the guinea

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pig for and they would kind of

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figure out. 30, 40, 50 campaigns ever many

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he's run through his company. Now the

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information is available to the public for

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1:11

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that data, all that information is packaged

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not only will you get an amazing

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a one-hour free coaching call with me

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and we'll talk about your campaign we'll

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talk about the your audience your customer

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avatar all the stuff that goes into

1:43

creating a successful campaign I would love

1:46

to chat with you I've been doing

1:48

that a lot over the last year

1:50

or so which is helping new creators

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new crowdfunding new designers getting into publishing

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figure out what to do and how

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to be successful and on game found

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so out crowdfunding nerds.com/bgDL and just

2:01

see if it's a right fit for

2:04

you. Marketing is one of the absolute

2:06

toughest parts of running crowdfunding campaigns but

2:08

the good news is you don't have

2:10

to do it alone and I highly

2:12

highly recommend crowdfunding nerds when it comes

2:15

to raising the funds necessary to bring

2:17

your game to life. What's

2:28

up my friends? Welcome to the board

2:30

game design lab. Today get a little

2:32

special episode diving into marketing talking to

2:34

my good friend Andrew from crowdfunding nerds

2:36

Andrew, welcome back to the show. I'm

2:38

excited to be here. So excited to

2:40

be a part of this like I

2:42

don't know. What is it a revival

2:44

or is it a? It's a mini

2:46

series. It's a little mini series. Okay

2:48

I just wanted to do a few

2:50

episodes with different people that I really

2:53

enjoy talking to about topics that I

2:55

feel like are kind of evergreen and

2:57

I wanted to do some updates. You

2:59

know, last time you were on the

3:01

show we were actually talking about

3:03

my failed campaign and the relaunch that

3:05

I was planning and so when was

3:07

that was like 2023 sometimes? So it's

3:09

been a minute and I think I've

3:11

run 15 crowdfunding campaigns since

3:14

last we spoke. Yeah, I know you've

3:16

run quite a few as well through

3:18

your company. both your crowdfunding nerds company

3:20

and your publishing company. And so

3:22

I just wanted to chat about

3:25

marketing where we're at. You know now here we

3:27

are kind of early 2025. I know

3:29

you've got this really cool marketing course

3:31

you've been working on so you've been

3:33

doing a ton of figuring things out for

3:35

that. And I just want to get your

3:37

ideas and thoughts on kind of marketing

3:39

where it is today, but also

3:41

marketing made simple. Because to your point,

3:43

we're chatting the other day. You said, you know, people

3:46

actually know a lot more about marketing

3:48

than they realize. And sometimes they just

3:50

over complicated. They make it more complex

3:52

than it really is. So I'm excited to

3:54

talk about that. But just give me an update in

3:56

the last, I don't know, year, year and a half

3:58

since we last spoke on the show. What you been

4:00

up to? What you've been, you know, what

4:02

you've been getting into? Oh man,

4:04

we've had at this point, I remember

4:06

when I was first came on the

4:09

BGL podcast, it was in 2019, and

4:11

I had just started to, I think

4:13

I took on my first client a couple

4:15

of months before that with the

4:17

Isafarian Guard, the first time they

4:19

went to Kickstarter, and a

4:21

couple of people had reached out to me,

4:24

and then the show kind of blew me

4:26

up a little bit where... It's like

4:28

a lot of people were like,

4:30

okay, this guy is somebody I

4:32

can talk to at marketing

4:34

work. And so since then, I

4:36

guess it's been almost, well, about

4:39

five years, just over five

4:41

years now, we have done

4:43

almost 250 crowdfunding

4:45

campaigns. We've helped raise

4:48

over $300 million, a tenth

4:50

of that, $30 million. which is

4:52

still a lot. I don't know,

4:54

I've been conflating two numbers. I

4:56

did my numbers to figure out

4:58

how much I've helped raise in

5:01

crowdfunding and it's over $30

5:03

million for almost 250 creators

5:05

at this point. And our e-commerce

5:07

numbers, because we help

5:09

people market things before,

5:12

during and after crowdfunding,

5:14

we've eclipsed $100 million

5:16

for e-commerce and e-commerce

5:18

sales for not just tabletop.

5:21

publishing, but that's a huge

5:23

chunk of it. We sell a

5:25

lot of stuff. So, like, holy cow,

5:27

this has been a fun journey. I

5:30

have a full-time staff of eight. And

5:32

yeah, about half our business

5:34

comes from helping tabletop

5:37

publishers with their

5:39

marketing problems. And it's

5:41

been a really fun journey because

5:43

I literally get to work on

5:45

games all day. And so I'm

5:48

pretty happy about that. Yeah, definitely.

5:50

Also, you've got the crowdfunding nerds podcast

5:52

that's over 100 episodes at this point.

5:54

It's doing really well. It's getting 120

5:56

something. Oh, yeah. Over 200 now. That

5:58

gone. And so that. That's been really

6:00

cool man. You know, I put the

6:03

Board Game Design Lab podcast on

6:05

hold, just kind of indefinitely because my

6:07

company took off. I mean, I

6:09

got so busy. Now I do

6:11

a new campaign every single month.

6:13

You know, I ran 12 campaigns

6:15

in 2024. I've got 12 more

6:17

planned, maybe 13. Who knows? For

6:19

2025. And. Yeah, it just kind of ate up all my

6:21

time. And so I've been glad that the crowdfunding nerds podcast has kind of

6:24

taken over in some ways the gap that the board game design like podcast

6:26

left when I kind of had to. I just don't have enough time in

6:28

the day. Other day, my wife, she asked me, she said, hey, you know,

6:30

do you need anything? I'm about to go to bed. What do you need? I

6:32

was like more hours in the day, way more, 10 more hours a day,

6:34

and I would be doing. She's like, can't be doing good. She's like, I

6:36

can't help you there, going to help you there, going to, going to, going

6:38

to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going

6:40

to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going

6:42

to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going to, going to bed.

6:44

She's, going to, going to Man, it's been crazy.

6:46

It's been a wild ride just

6:49

to get here and I've been

6:51

working with crowdfunding nerds on every

6:53

single one of those campaigns. Y'all

6:55

have helped me raise at this point.

6:57

It's over a million dollars across all

7:00

those campaigns. So that's I didn't know

7:02

that a backer sent me a message

7:04

the other day. They're like, hey, I

7:06

just added up all your numbers. You've

7:08

made over a million. I was like,

7:11

oh. It's been really, really cool to

7:13

see you. And the style, well I

7:15

guess the choices you've made, the

7:17

niche that you've kind of, I

7:19

don't want to say pigeonhole, but

7:22

you placed yourself in this niche

7:24

of solo games that can be

7:26

played with two players sometimes

7:28

and whatnot. And I think

7:30

just really I guess maybe did

7:32

start with your hunted series. But

7:35

now like that we're, you know, 15

7:37

solo games of the month in, it's,

7:39

you have a dedicated audience

7:41

that backs that backs. you

7:43

know several that on average several

7:46

campaigns some people back every

7:48

single one of them it's just been

7:50

really really great to see you leaning

7:52

into what's working I think like

7:54

principle number one is if it's working

7:56

do more of it right and if it's

7:58

not working it needs to change or

8:01

get eliminated. It's just like game

8:03

design. You know, if you find a

8:05

mechanic that you just really, really love, and

8:07

it's like the main thing that you made

8:09

this game to do, but the game kind

8:11

of wants to be something else, then you

8:13

need to lean into the fun, find, you

8:16

know, what's working and change or

8:18

eliminate everything else that doesn't

8:20

support that core experience.

8:22

And I think the number one thing in

8:24

marketing is, when you find something that

8:26

works, do more of that thing, you know.

8:29

Yeah, so that's kind of how how marketers ruin

8:31

the internet sometimes, right? Because they find

8:33

something that works and then everybody starts

8:35

doing it and then it gets done

8:38

to absolute death. Right. If you think

8:40

about old school pop-up ads, like those

8:42

those worked for a certain amount. Those

8:44

those worked for a certain amount of

8:47

time. Like they weren't just terrible evil,

8:49

awful, you know, annoying. At some point

8:51

they actually got clicks and got sales,

8:53

but then everybody used them and then

8:55

it just kind of took over the internet

8:57

and then it. I've seen studies that are

9:00

literally like the banners on the sides and

9:02

the top like our eyes don't even see

9:04

those parts of a page anymore. So, so

9:06

that, you know, they still work to a

9:08

certain degree and maybe you got to use

9:11

moving images or flashing lights and things like

9:13

that. But, you know, marketing is a matter

9:15

of figuring out what works and then

9:17

doing that until you need to pivot.

9:19

And so that's why I wanted to do

9:21

this episode and kind of update some

9:23

things since last week we chatted. So

9:26

give me your perspective. of kind of

9:28

what you're seeing in the market in

9:30

the marketing world as it relates to

9:32

board games right now, 2025 and in

9:35

the near future. Definitely. So now there's

9:37

there's always this foundation that everything else

9:39

is built upon and my contention is

9:42

that there is a foundation of

9:44

marketing that does not change ever. And

9:46

that is why I can go as a

9:48

professional marketer, I can go from one medium

9:50

to the next and continue to

9:52

find success. That's why. you know

9:54

board games were sold a different

9:56

way in 1990 than they were you

9:59

know then they have and they are in

10:01

2025, but the same people are buying

10:03

them, right? You know, just

10:05

average everyday people are just

10:07

finding different ways, or just learning

10:09

about board games in different

10:12

ways, maybe getting them in

10:14

different ways, being marketed to

10:16

different manner, but they're still

10:18

whipping out the same credit card or,

10:20

you know, paying for it in a

10:22

very similar manner. So the

10:25

first fundamental principle

10:27

of marketing is that. People

10:29

like to buy stuff. They just like

10:31

to buy stuff in particular if

10:33

I were to apply that to

10:35

2025 they people today Like to

10:37

buy experiences So if

10:39

you frame this in if it was like

10:42

if we were in like I don't know

10:44

1950 and I came to your house

10:46

with a vacuum cleaner that I

10:48

needed to sell because that's

10:50

what direct sales was like

10:52

the way to do it. I need to Show you

10:54

an experience that you want to

10:57

have yourself that you would like

10:59

to replicate That would make your own

11:01

life better, right? So I need to

11:04

show you. Oh, I'm just gonna pull

11:06

some dirt outside and drop it on

11:08

your carpet You're like oh, no, that's

11:10

gonna take forever to sweep up with

11:12

my broom You're like, oh, no,

11:14

that's gonna take forever to sweep up

11:16

with my broom You're like a lot

11:19

of nickel for your vacuum cleaner and

11:21

it's such an easy way to sell

11:23

It's because even a 1950

11:25

people bought experiences. They say

11:28

like, you know, facts tell, but stories

11:30

sell. That's a universally, in

11:32

my opinion, fundamental principle

11:34

of marketing that if

11:37

you want to sell something

11:39

that you're making, you need

11:41

to be able to connect it to

11:43

an experience that people want

11:45

to have. So when, you know, and the

11:48

best way to sell, frankly, is to

11:50

hear something from your trusted

11:52

friend. And it's like, dude, I just,

11:54

like, for example, I just got Elder Scrolls

11:57

betrayal of the second era, and I played through

11:59

one and a half. campaigns of it right

12:01

now and I'm so excited and man,

12:03

the dies tutorial on that thing was

12:05

so seamless and amazing. It has a

12:07

94 page rulebook, but I was playing

12:09

within 30 minutes. Like I selected

12:11

my character was playing a mission in

12:14

30 minutes and I think I finally

12:16

started flipping through the rulebook after

12:18

about eight hours of play. It's like,

12:20

oh, maybe I should learn some of the

12:22

finer details. I'm having so much fun, you

12:25

know, but maybe I'll have fun. reading

12:27

the rulebook, you know, instead of

12:29

actually like, uh, I need to

12:31

make this, uh, make it through

12:33

this 94 page to log before

12:35

I even begin. So me

12:37

relating this story to you, you're

12:39

like, oh, well, you know, that

12:41

game is big and expensive

12:43

and, and, and whatever,

12:45

but, but I can, you know, you

12:48

start to rationalize, like, I

12:50

can get started quick, I'm gonna

12:52

have tons of fun. And so

12:54

that's kind of a way that a simple

12:57

way that stories sell like a simple illustration

12:59

to show that that's how they sell absolutely.

13:01

And I think that's why you hire for

13:03

your your company campaign. That's why you

13:05

get influencers, You know, or whatever to

13:08

play the game to show their experience.

13:10

They're actual on the table. Here's

13:12

the, you know, experience of the game

13:14

because something I've been talking to a lot

13:16

of new publishers recently doing like coaching

13:18

and consulting calls and things like that.

13:20

And one thing that comes up all

13:22

the time. the game and the rules

13:24

and how it plays and how it

13:26

works and all these things. And they're

13:28

like, oh, if I could just get

13:30

people to play it. And I'm like,

13:33

yeah, but you can't because it's just

13:35

on a website, right? You're not

13:37

selling your game. You're selling the

13:39

idea of your game. And so

13:41

how do you approach things differently

13:43

when they can't sit down and

13:45

actually play it and move the

13:47

pieces around on the board on

13:49

the table? Now if you're at

13:51

a convention. In general, most of

13:53

us are selling online, where

13:55

all we have are the visuals,

13:57

the videos, the pictures, the

13:59

art. Maybe a rulebook, maybe some little

14:01

things here and there, but what? Personally,

14:04

I found that most people don't read

14:06

anything that's on a crowdfunding campaign. They

14:08

don't read any of the text, any

14:10

of the, maybe like a big headline,

14:12

but they're not reading the long paragraphs

14:15

and stuff like that. So I'm to

14:17

a point, I don't even put those

14:19

on there. Like you look at my

14:21

campaign pages. It's visual, it is art

14:23

and components and videos and a big

14:26

picture that says, hey, hey, click here

14:28

for the three sentences. And then maybe

14:30

some, you know, little details about shipping,

14:32

the finer nuances of like, the businessy

14:34

type of stuff, because some people want

14:37

to know, you know, as far as

14:39

that kind of stuff goes, but in

14:41

general, it's a visual medium. And so

14:43

I think the more you lean into

14:45

that, the more you can project the

14:48

idea of your game, but then that

14:50

gets into, how does the game look?

14:52

Is it attractive? You know, the pictures

14:54

on your page, are you taking nice

14:56

photos or have nice digital 3D renders?

14:59

Because again you're selling this idea. of

15:01

the game being fun. Oh, that experience

15:03

looks fun for me and my gaming

15:05

group or me and my kid or

15:07

just me as a solo gamer. And

15:10

so that's always a lens I'm looking

15:12

through. So tell me your thoughts on

15:14

that. And what are some ways that

15:16

you think new publishers or publishers in

15:18

general can really lean into the visuals

15:21

and, you know, selling that experience, that

15:23

idea. Yeah, in fact, that that it's

15:25

my fundamental number two is everything is

15:27

all about. So again, building on what

15:29

works, people buy experiences that does not

15:32

change. a good demonstration. In fact, the

15:34

better that you can demonstrate your product,

15:36

the easier it is going to be

15:38

to sell it. So when we're talking

15:40

about like you were talking about demonstration,

15:43

the best way to demonstrate is for

15:45

you to come over to my house

15:47

and play it on my table. Because

15:49

I am the human rulebook and I

15:51

will make sure that you have a

15:54

good time, right? And if you don't,

15:56

then I'll wrap up early, you know,

15:58

and make some iteration, make some changes,

16:00

and then come back so that you'll

16:02

want to come back again, right. But

16:05

the idea is like if my game

16:07

is finished, if everything is beautiful and

16:09

perfect and whatever. then the absolute best

16:11

way to demonstrate is just to let

16:13

you play right now with the internet

16:16

I I can't it's not as easy

16:18

to let you play I mean I

16:20

have you know like deliverance game that

16:22

I designed we have on tabletop simulator

16:24

we were just getting into board game

16:27

arena and there are digital ways to

16:29

play but before all of that I

16:31

just had a website that was like

16:33

this is what the game is like.

16:35

And I'm trying to give people an

16:38

understanding of what the game is like.

16:40

And so same thing, you know, if

16:42

you're at a convention or if you

16:44

are just on the internet, you know,

16:46

you, you, you want to give the

16:49

best possible demonstration you can to somebody

16:51

so that they can understand what it,

16:53

again, going back to that fundamental number

16:55

one, what it feels like when I

16:57

buy this. So I'll give you my

17:00

email address because I'm interested in the

17:02

thing, because you've shown me potential. Like

17:04

there's potential there. Now, I'm talking in

17:06

broad general terms on purpose because, really

17:08

because of this. The more effective your

17:11

demonstration, the better a case you can

17:13

make for the thing that you're advocating

17:15

for, that you're making, that you made,

17:17

that you're trying to sell, the more

17:19

likely people are to buy. So for

17:22

example, I mentioned chip theory games, betrayal,

17:24

betrayal of the second era. I think

17:26

it's probably the best produced game ever.

17:28

just quality-wise and it's a very impressive

17:30

specimen to look at and to open

17:33

the box and all of that. And

17:35

sometimes I feel like I'm just playing

17:37

checkers while companies like that are just

17:39

smashing it. It's like how am I

17:41

ever going to get as big as

17:44

that, right? But Chip Their Game started

17:46

small too. I think their first campaign

17:48

had like a hundred backers. Oh well.

17:50

So it was like hop Lamocas. It

17:52

really was, or maybe 250, something like

17:55

that. They have more money. and more

17:57

knowledge than you than you know more.

17:59

experience and all of that, more people

18:01

with individual skill sets, more hours in

18:03

the day, you want to get more

18:06

than 10 hours in the day, hire

18:08

someone, right? But they have the means

18:10

to be able to do things like

18:12

that. So they're going to be able

18:14

to play at a level that's higher

18:17

than somebody who's like their very first

18:19

game or who's a fledgling, you know,

18:21

publishing company and, you know, or even,

18:23

you know, some veteran publishing companies just

18:25

aren't quite there yet, right. They're going

18:28

to be able to convince more people.

18:30

But there are many that when you

18:32

show them something, sometimes it looks ugly.

18:34

You can't convince them not to buy

18:36

it. You've convinced them by the pictures.

18:39

I remember the very first Deliverance website

18:41

I had. I used a stock photo

18:43

of like an old Gothic church and

18:45

I had no art of the game

18:47

because it didn't have any art at

18:50

all. And I still got email sign-ups.

18:52

Like I think I talked about on

18:54

the very first podcast I ever joined.

18:56

with you back in 2019 or whatever,

18:58

I talked about how I earned 1100

19:01

email signups before spending anything on advertising

19:03

because I felt like my game needed

19:05

to justify its existence rather than me

19:07

just paying money for ads and all

19:09

of that. And it's something that you'd

19:12

be surprised at how little some people

19:14

need to be convinced to give it

19:16

a go, a paragraph of what your

19:18

game is all about. Like you said,

19:20

it's not common that people read that,

19:23

but some people will. Some people will

19:25

be like, all right, I'm interested enough.

19:27

I clicked an ad, I heard about

19:29

this somewhere, I saw it at a

19:31

convention, I'm now on the website. So

19:34

what is this game? They need facts,

19:36

they need, oh, it's a one to

19:38

five player, a cooperative deck building adventure,

19:40

where you play, scientists trying to stop

19:42

a zombie alien invasion, and they're also

19:45

pirates. You know, so there you go.

19:47

That's kind of what it is. So

19:49

if you like all of that then

19:51

or you know like ag. or Agricola,

19:54

the zombie edition that just was announced,

19:56

you know, that's like, it's kind of

19:58

combining two weird things. Well, that's the

20:00

hook in itself, though. Like, go about

20:02

to- Feeding your people is like a

20:05

weird twist in- You're feeding them brains.

20:07

You know, I was saying, my campaign's

20:09

usually have a few sentences now, but

20:11

it's that what you're talking about. It's

20:13

the hook, what is the hook of

20:16

your game? Backers and, and potential customers,

20:18

they don't need paragraphs of back story,

20:20

But they just want to know, is

20:22

this going to be fun for me

20:24

to play? And so, you know, if

20:27

you want to, if you want to,

20:29

you can explain, I think, the better.

20:31

Exactly. And if you want to put

20:33

that kind of information in updates, I

20:35

found that to be kind of helpful,

20:38

because a lot of people, they don't

20:40

care about updates, but the super fans,

20:42

they're going to read all of it,

20:44

and they're going to get really excited,

20:46

and put those. You know, back stories

20:49

and lore and extra stuff in campaign

20:51

updates along during the campaign and post

20:53

campaign. It's good content to give to

20:55

people, you know, among other like businessy

20:57

type shipping updates and stuff like that.

21:00

And so, but the hook back to

21:02

your point. So, Robomon, probably the best

21:04

hook of a game that I have.

21:06

And it's, hey, do you wish you

21:08

could play Pokemon as a board game?

21:11

That's it. Like, that's the whole question.

21:13

Like, okay, here you go. Here's the

21:15

game. Or, you know, we're in the

21:17

home stretch right now. It's like sleeping

21:19

God's Pokemon Edition. That's what I think

21:22

of it. Right. And so that alone

21:24

gets people to ask questions. So I

21:26

think that's another thing is good marketing

21:28

opens loops and gets people to go,

21:30

hmm, I want to know more. And

21:33

they start asking, okay, well, how does

21:35

that work? How do you do that?

21:37

Or does, you know, agricula, zombie, how

21:39

does, okay, how did the mechanisms change?

21:41

I'm asking questions and I want to

21:44

know more and my brain is not

21:46

going to let it go. I need

21:48

to go click on this link. I

21:50

need to scroll down the campaign page.

21:52

I need to watch this video because

21:55

I'm trying to answer these questions that

21:57

the good marketing, the hooks and the

21:59

images, have kind of created in my

22:01

mind. I have a dumb question for

22:03

you. Yeah. Have you ever tried to

22:06

drink water from a waterfall? Or... Not

22:08

intentionally. I think I got trapped in

22:10

our waterfall once when I was like

22:12

in the Grand Canyon, but in that's

22:14

a whole other thing. That's a whole

22:17

other story. But no, I was not,

22:19

the evident trying to drink from it.

22:21

But I think I see your metaphor.

22:23

So the way that I kind of

22:25

liken the content, so getting very specific

22:28

to Kickstarter game found story pages. They

22:30

called it the story. Not the web

22:32

page or whatever, right? It's the story.

22:34

You tell people the story about your

22:36

thing and they back pledges and whatnot,

22:39

or they pledge. I liken it to,

22:41

like this, like you show me a

22:43

picture of a waterfall. And then I'm

22:45

like, oh, that looks like a beautiful

22:47

place that I'd like to go. And

22:50

then I go there and I, next

22:52

thing you do, like, I need to

22:54

just dip my toe in the water.

22:56

It's like, oh, well, the water's not

22:58

too cold, it's crystal clear. It's crystal

23:01

clear. It's crystal clear. It's crystal clear.

23:03

It's like, it's like. It's very beautiful.

23:05

Before you know it, I'm trying to

23:07

drink from the waterfall. I wonder what

23:09

I wonder if I could get behind

23:12

the waterfall. I wonder if there's like,

23:14

you know, Zola from Legend of Zelda

23:16

or something like that, Zora's waterfall. Anyway,

23:18

that's kind of how the progression goes

23:20

in marketing. Like you were saying, you

23:23

need a huge headline that is like

23:25

the major message that you're giving. that

23:27

leads people to want to know more,

23:29

then you give them something else that

23:31

just shows a little bit of maybe

23:34

the gameplay, gives like a little splash,

23:36

lets them dip their toe in and

23:38

understand a little bit more. And then

23:40

when they're ready, if I'm very interested

23:42

in those things, I will read a

23:45

dissertation of words about the thing. I'm

23:47

like super interested in the story or

23:49

whatever, you know, I'm like magically gathering.

23:51

I never read flavor text, but I

23:53

got bored. one day, you know, this

23:56

is a long time ago now, but

23:58

I got bored one day and just

24:00

started reading. I was, I think this...

24:02

set was nemesis and I started reading

24:04

story text when a friend of mine

24:07

got up to go to the bathroom

24:09

or something like that. And then a

24:11

couple of days later I had read

24:13

like all of the books that I

24:15

could find on you know in Magic

24:18

Gathering the story you know. So the

24:20

the idea is like give me so

24:22

what I always tell my clients give

24:24

me the hook of your game and

24:26

what it is in six words or

24:29

less. That's all you've got. The one

24:31

that we used for Deliverance needs to

24:33

totally summarize what it is, as well

24:35

as why you would be interested in

24:37

it, which is the Angelic Warfare Board

24:40

game. So that's only five words. The

24:42

Angelic Warfare Board game, it's what it

24:44

is, and it's why you would be

24:46

interested in it. So there's another one

24:48

that I want to say it was

24:51

Homeworld, the Homeworld campaign that we did,

24:53

for Modipius Entertainment. It was like fast-paced.

24:55

spaceship fleet battles or something like that.

24:57

And that was like the big, just

24:59

right up at the front, very bold,

25:02

large letters. Easy to understand. If I'm

25:04

not interested in sci-fi, if I don't

25:06

care about fleet battles or whatever, I'm

25:08

out. But you're not trying to get

25:10

everyone. You're trying to appeal to like

25:13

the right group of people that like

25:15

are your hardcore fans, right? So you

25:17

want, you don't want to try to,

25:19

you know, water it down for everyone.

25:21

But. Then, you know, after, so for

25:24

me, my, you know, the hooks of

25:26

deliverance were, you know, the Angelic Warfare

25:28

Board game returns. We, we went to

25:30

Kickstarter the first time, we did 300,000,

25:32

and then went to Kickstarter last September,

25:35

we did 505,000 with, you know, 3,400

25:37

backers or whatever, and we've already done

25:39

another 163,000 on the, in the pledge

25:41

manager, a couple of, you know, a

25:43

couple of additional months, and, It's the

25:46

way that we start. was tell me

25:48

what it is and then show me

25:50

what it is. So tell me what

25:52

it is in as few words as

25:54

humanly possible and then immediately show me

25:57

art and visual assets and the game

25:59

laid out on a table. I think

26:01

or or what the way we do

26:03

is a 3D render. And this is

26:05

very common. So I need to see

26:08

the game like in like a snapshot

26:10

of the game at like in a

26:12

mid game state. You know, show me

26:14

what it looks like on the table.

26:16

that looks you know in a way

26:19

that is like attractive and interesting some

26:21

people will do you know will go

26:23

like way far in fact the way

26:25

that we did it the first time

26:27

in deliverance I showed everybody like all

26:30

the components in the entire box and

26:32

it was like miniatures in front and

26:34

decks of cards and like map tiles

26:36

and rulebook and all this stuff and

26:38

it looked like you got a lot

26:41

in the box but I can't see

26:43

how this is played the way that

26:45

I laid it out. And I actually

26:47

think even though the first time cost,

26:49

we'll say, more money to get a

26:52

3D render of like every single component

26:54

in the box and, you know, obviously

26:56

they didn't render every single card, they

26:58

did like the card back and like

27:00

a deck looking thing and whatever. The

27:03

other version I did was like, here's

27:05

two player characters set up on the

27:07

map with their player boards, a couple

27:09

of bad guys on the map, you

27:11

know, a couple of enemy player boards,

27:14

a couple of like cards. you know

27:16

that you can see and that's it

27:18

and it was it's so much more

27:20

effective because what it's doing is it's

27:22

it's accomplishing the purpose of of the

27:25

story where it's actually showing me what

27:27

it's like it's demonstrating to me what

27:29

the game is is going to do

27:31

it's like okay this is a miniature

27:33

kind of a skirmish war game of

27:36

dudes on a map you know ain't

27:38

your angels playing demons and protecting demons

27:40

that's what you're doing in deliberate so

27:42

I actually showed that on the board

27:44

and more people back the game You

27:47

know, it was, it was very, very,

27:49

you know, it's very eye opening when...

27:51

And you do things right? And like,

27:53

okay, people are backing when you do

27:55

things wrong. Like, why aren't people backing?

27:58

Yeah. So right off of that, I

28:00

like to do both. I like to

28:02

put the game in progress at the

28:04

top, right? Because as a, as a

28:06

backer, personally, I like, that's the first

28:09

thing I do. Show me the game

28:11

on a long time, but designing games

28:13

a long time, I can get a

28:15

pretty good sense of how this game

28:17

works, just by looking at it laid

28:20

out. at the very top we have

28:22

the game set up here's the stuff

28:24

right and so you're literally from your

28:26

perspective you're like looking at the game

28:28

out on a table as if you

28:31

were playing it yourself right go back

28:33

to that story that experience we were

28:35

talking about further down I like to

28:37

put all the components here's everything in

28:39

this box because it's the equivalent of

28:42

going to a game store in person

28:44

in reality picking up the box and

28:46

feeling how heavy it is And then

28:48

your brain does a little calculation to

28:50

go, is that worth it? Now, the

28:53

experience has nothing to do with any

28:55

of this, right? It's literally like caveman

28:57

brain, hmm, this heavy, it worth more

28:59

money. Like, that's what we think, right?

29:01

And so, you know, it's the equivalent

29:04

of that on your campaign page, where

29:06

you've, right? And so, you know, it's

29:08

the equivalent of that on your campaign

29:10

page where you've got all the price

29:12

and go, yeah, yeah, And a lot

29:15

of times I've seen campaigns that are

29:17

struggling, and I think that's part of

29:19

it, where they've got the components. And

29:21

it's like, okay, that's all you get.

29:23

And it's like, well, that price is

29:26

way off. That just seems expensive for

29:28

that. Like, where is that money going?

29:30

And as a poster, I kind of,

29:32

like, where's that money going? And as

29:34

a poster, I kind of have an

29:37

idea of like, I kind of have

29:39

an idea, like, like, your price points

29:41

off, like, your price points, like, your

29:43

price points, like, But they have a

29:45

general idea based on the wall of

29:48

games, like you know, you have that

29:50

wall of games behind you. You know

29:52

how much you paid for those. And

29:54

when a game does it... line up

29:56

to an MSRP of stuff that's similar

29:59

in your collection. It's like, mmm, it

30:01

feels over price, especially because people on

30:03

crowdfunding, they're looking for a deal. Like,

30:05

they don't pay retail price. And that's

30:07

another conundrum that you have to do

30:10

with as a publisher. But let's keep

30:12

going. Tell me more about the campaign

30:14

page. You know, it's big pragmatic. All

30:16

right. So we talked about you need

30:18

a hook. You need beautiful art, good

30:21

visuals. You need the game laid out

30:23

on good visuals. you know, what else

30:25

would you say is a must have

30:27

on the page? I think about the,

30:30

uh, we'll call it a, the next

30:32

fundamental is that there is a, a

30:34

conversation that you are having inside your

30:36

head right now. Talking to all the

30:38

listeners, talking to you gave, talking to

30:41

me. It's called your inner monologue, and

30:43

you cannot turn it off. You can

30:45

only turn it down. You can only

30:47

turn the volume down. So if... Something

30:49

if you're looking at something you have

30:52

questions that you're asking just like you

30:54

said like what is this? Okay, and

30:56

now I know what it is because

30:58

you know in the Kickstarter story you've

31:00

got that six-word hook Right and then

31:03

it's like what I like this though

31:05

and then you scroll down and you

31:07

see the game on the table and

31:09

you're like okay. I think I might

31:11

like this. What is the next natural

31:14

progression of this of the inner monologue

31:16

that you might have and that is

31:18

exactly how you need to lay out

31:20

your Kickstarter story? or game found whatever,

31:22

you know, your story. Because you need

31:25

to answer, you need to answer questions

31:27

or the customer has them. So oftentimes

31:29

it's like, okay, how does this, it

31:31

goes usually one of two places. It

31:33

goes into like, how does this game

31:36

actually play? Like show me a summary

31:38

of like how this plays or show

31:40

me what's like what components are there

31:42

in the box and I'm looking for

31:44

the value. In my opinion, the summary

31:47

of how the game plays. should be

31:49

the next thing. You know, you shouldn't

31:51

be given people like tons of detail.

31:53

You should be helping people understand like

31:55

how it feels to play. You know,

31:58

still like with that experience first, it's

32:00

like, you know, I'm not saying step

32:02

one, draw seven cards from a deck.

32:04

I'm like, you know, play cards from

32:06

your hand to stop the zombie apocalypse,

32:09

you know, thwart other adventurers that try

32:11

to throw you out of the truck

32:13

or whatever, you know, I don't know,

32:15

stuff like that. You're, it's like, how

32:17

does it feel thematically? And I think

32:20

that's an important tie in the theme.

32:22

needs to be tied in at this

32:24

point with the game mechanics. So, and

32:26

then after that, it's like, okay, I

32:28

am interested now in the theme, the

32:31

gameplay looks good, what's the natural next

32:33

step? Well, they're usually one of two

32:35

places that people go. I want to

32:37

see other people give this a go

32:39

because maybe, I don't know, Alex Radcliffe

32:42

of board game co, usually is, you

32:44

know, I agree with a lot of

32:46

what he says or, you know, I

32:48

don't know, call in of meet me

32:50

at the meet me at the table

32:53

at the table or meet me at

32:55

the table or meet me at the

32:57

table or meet me at the table.

32:59

you know whoever Steve a one stop

33:01

co-op shop you know you want to

33:04

have reviewers that have hands on with

33:06

this experience and they can say I

33:08

knew you said it was going to

33:10

be like a pirate zombie whatever game

33:12

and it really feels like that it's

33:15

really great it's like dead of winter

33:17

on a pirate ship oh well that's

33:19

that's I mean I'm making stuff up

33:21

here like just examples but it's like

33:23

a high praise for a game like

33:26

this and it's going to make it's

33:28

good But now because this other guy

33:30

says, so I actually believe it's good.

33:32

So now the last question is, is

33:34

the value there? Like, what's the, for

33:37

me, the offer is the last like

33:39

key cornerstone? And conceptually, like fundamental, I

33:41

guess the next fundamental, if you will,

33:43

is the value has to be greater

33:45

than the price. So if, you know,

33:48

the value I'm receiving has to, in

33:50

my, in my perception as a customer.

33:52

I have to be. Getting greater value

33:54

than the money I'm handing over if

33:56

it's break even I'm probably not I'm

33:59

probably gonna save it for a better

34:01

deal, right? And so I don't know

34:03

if you had any comments on what

34:05

I yeah, so a couple things that

34:07

stuck out and we'll jump right back

34:10

to what you're saying is Whenever I'm

34:12

pitching a game or I'm talking to

34:14

other people who are wanting to pitch

34:16

One of the first things I tell

34:18

people is make sure the publisher knows

34:21

right as you sit down right as

34:23

you sit down, okay. answer those questions.

34:25

Who am I in this game? And

34:27

how do I win this game? So

34:29

when you're pitching to backers, it's the

34:32

same thing. Make sure they are aware

34:34

who they are in the world. You

34:36

are an adventurer. You are a zombie-slaying,

34:38

you know, badass. Like, whatever it is,

34:40

how do you win? You kill all

34:43

the zombies. Okay, now I have a

34:45

frame. Now I have a context for

34:47

everything else you're going to tell me

34:49

as far as the game's theme and

34:51

the mechanisms and the experience and the

34:54

experience and how it all works and

34:56

how it all works because I'm how

34:58

it all works because I'm a how

35:00

it all works because I'm a. guy

35:02

driving a truck, apparently, people trying to

35:05

throw me out of your truck. I

35:07

don't know, that's cool. We're designing a

35:09

really cool game here, by the way.

35:11

Someone pleases on this, but I don't

35:13

know where the partnership is in, but

35:16

it does. We'll make it work. But,

35:18

um, but everything else makes sense now

35:20

because you told me the context. Who

35:22

am I and how do I win?

35:24

And then going back to the whole

35:27

time. the more time you put in,

35:29

the more fun has to come out

35:31

the other end, and if that ratio

35:33

is off, then it's not a good

35:35

game. If Janga lasted an hour, it

35:38

would be a terrible game. But because

35:40

it lasts five minutes, it's really, really

35:42

fun. Because the time to fun ratio

35:44

is right. Well, the time to fun

35:46

ratio is right. Well, money, money, is

35:49

also fun. Because the time to fun

35:51

ratio is right. Well, money. Well, money,

35:53

money is also in that. It's going

35:55

to take this amount of time I

35:57

have to wait on the game. Allegedly,

36:00

they say a year. That's probably... going

36:02

to be longer. Like everybody, that's why

36:04

my campaigns, the game is basically done

36:06

when you see it, right? The art

36:08

is done, the gravity design is

36:11

done, everything's done, except

36:13

for production and shipping,

36:15

because I got so frustrated

36:17

with myself, and shipping, because

36:20

I got so frustrated with

36:22

myself, taking, taking, taking

36:24

forever, taking, because I

36:27

got so frustrated with

36:29

myself, and money into that engine

36:31

and how much fun am I going to get

36:33

out on the other side and that ratio has

36:35

to be right for them to hit pledge,

36:37

you know, to hit back the campaign. And

36:39

then the more expensive the game is,

36:41

the harder it is to get them, you know,

36:43

to get that ratio just right. You know, I

36:46

sell $25 games. It's not as hard for me

36:48

to sell a game as it is my selling a

36:50

hundred dollar game because again that

36:52

ratio is just a different, a different

36:54

thing. So anyway. Keep going. Yeah, so

36:56

I guess like for you know

36:58

conceptually you could consider customers

37:01

buy They feel like they're getting a

37:03

good value when they when they you

37:06

know when you talk about like we'll

37:08

say value for money if they're

37:10

getting less Value for much

37:12

less money that you know, it's like

37:14

the $20 game like a bit of

37:17

a fun experience in a that you've

37:19

never had before in a $20 game. It's

37:21

like well, that's not very much money

37:23

you know, 20 bucks, like 25 is

37:26

like 30, 40, you know, it starts

37:28

to really tick up, like I

37:30

need to think harder, need to

37:32

get more value, right? But like

37:34

20 dollars or like, you know, I

37:36

have a star, my original Star Rome

37:39

is one of the very first

37:41

games I ever purchased. Was that

37:43

like $12 or something? That, you

37:45

know, it's like an easy,

37:47

no-brainer. No-brainer, I'll buy that.

37:49

I don't know if I play it.

37:51

I play it once, I don't. But

37:53

the concept that I'm

37:56

getting less value for

37:58

much less money. I'm

38:00

getting more for less. So

38:02

I'm getting more value for

38:04

less money. And then I'm

38:06

getting, we'll say more, I'm getting

38:09

much more value for more

38:11

money. So I'm paying, I

38:13

paid $400 for Elder Scrolls

38:15

Patrol of the second era.

38:17

And then I also grabbed like

38:20

this extra add-on that

38:22

was like a set of leather

38:24

bound character sheets. And it

38:26

was like 30 bucks add-on. that

38:29

shoot dude that's the biggest expense

38:31

that i've ever invested into a

38:33

game and but i just felt the value was

38:35

so off the charts that it was worth it for

38:37

me right type of game i've not gotten

38:39

any of the too many bones games what

38:41

i really wanted to and so i held

38:43

myself back and then just jumped on into

38:45

this one when i had the opportunity and

38:48

so those kind of three levels of equations

38:50

and the way that it actually like works

38:52

out so now jumping out of theory the

38:54

way it actually works out on your page

38:56

is like Show me don't show me the

38:58

components list in a small image.

39:01

I want to see every component

39:03

Like large like you know show

39:05

me don't tell me like 72

39:07

cards show me 24 battle cards

39:09

and 36 you know I don't

39:12

deliver inside 36 darkness cards and

39:14

you've got prayer cards and different

39:16

types of cards that each

39:18

have function, but each deck it

39:20

shows there's thought behind this

39:22

game each element is like

39:25

being featured it looks like you know

39:27

if you show me four or five decks of

39:29

cards that each have a purpose and

39:31

you title them in your in your

39:33

components list and you show me a picture

39:35

of the card back and some of the

39:37

card faces it it lets me kind of

39:39

jump in more and kind of investigate

39:41

I'm like there's there's a lot of

39:44

value it's not like a playing card

39:46

it's like a card that you use as

39:48

like a defense thing and then here are

39:50

the bad ones that that like the enemy

39:52

uses to attack you and I kind

39:54

of see mechanically how some of that

39:56

works because I'm seeing the card faces,

39:58

you know, and um... So you don't

40:01

need to show all the components

40:03

in your game, but you need to

40:05

show a sampling of all of them. And

40:07

you need to talk about them and

40:10

really kind of celebrate each one.

40:12

And the better you do that

40:14

with your components, it might be

40:16

like a scrolling long list of

40:18

things, depending on how big your

40:21

game is. But it's gonna build

40:23

a lot of value. So by the time

40:25

they see the price, they're like,

40:27

but look at all I get, right? you

40:29

know, for $29. It's like, well, I

40:31

don't want a box for $29.

40:33

But if you showed me all that

40:36

was in there, be like, wow, there's

40:38

a lot in that box. You know,

40:40

that's kind of part of

40:42

the way customers do that thing.

40:44

And then, you know, another very

40:47

practical tip is make sure

40:49

that your shipping price is

40:51

subsidized. So if you have a, you

40:53

know, $25 game and your shipping for

40:56

that thing is, I don't know, $14.

40:58

You actually have a $29 game

41:01

with $10 shipping. So all you're

41:03

doing is just putting some

41:05

of the shipping into the cost

41:07

of the game and you're

41:09

reducing the shipping cost and

41:11

it looks like a great value.

41:14

Instead of saying, oh, I'm paying,

41:16

you know, the ratio seems good.

41:18

So for me, it's like four

41:20

to one, your game needs to

41:22

be at least four times what

41:25

the shipping is. for people to

41:27

even make sense of it. Sometimes if it's

41:29

like a small box game, it can be

41:31

different, but generally subsidizing shipping

41:33

is a good idea. People will look at

41:35

that and, you know, and then also, you know,

41:37

one other thing, don't try to hide numbers.

41:40

Tell people what the numbers are and

41:42

give them the choice, right? Like they

41:44

eventually have to decide. But if you've

41:46

done such a good job building the

41:48

value, building experience and sharing what it

41:51

is, people will pay. They'll just, they'll

41:53

pay. Yeah, absolutely. There's no shortage of

41:55

people who want to buy great games,

41:57

great experiences. Like, yeah, it just is what it is.

42:00

and will continue to be so. I

42:02

know there's a lot of fear around

42:04

economies around the world and things are

42:06

kind of weird right now and 2025

42:08

has been an odd year. People are

42:10

still gonna buy games because they still

42:12

gonna buy stuff. Yeah, they still want

42:14

those experiences. Now, will it be less?

42:17

Yep. Yeah, they still want those experiences.

42:19

Now, will it be less? Yep, probably.

42:21

But you know, I feel like the

42:24

companies that really continue to figure it

42:26

out as far as how to put

42:28

their best foot out forward. I think you'll

42:30

like it and who market it well,

42:32

those companies will continue to do well.

42:34

And it's just that's just the nature

42:36

of business. I want to switch gears a

42:39

little bit and talk about Facebook ads

42:41

and just kind of ads in general, right?

42:43

And what you're saying, because, you know,

42:45

the old school, I say old school, you

42:47

know, 15 minutes ago in the online marketing

42:49

world, it was, you know, you run a Facebook

42:52

ad, you get people to click on that,

42:54

it goes to a landing page, it goes

42:56

to a landing page, you've got, you've got,

42:58

And then you take that email address

43:00

and now you're going to follow

43:02

up with them over the course

43:04

of, you know, however many months

43:06

leading up to your campaign and

43:09

then you'll launch and you'll send,

43:11

you know, the launch notification out

43:13

to all those people on your

43:16

email list and hopefully a certain

43:18

percentage of them will back. Is

43:21

that still the formula? Has that

43:23

formula changed? Do Facebook ads still

43:25

work? What are your thoughts? just

43:27

to test everything. Because,

43:29

you know, as a publisher,

43:31

I want to be, I mean,

43:33

we made 500K, you know, that's a

43:36

good ratio of what I spent to

43:38

what I earned, right? But I want

43:41

to test, I tested TikTok,

43:43

we tested the Twitter

43:45

slash X, we tested,

43:48

obviously Facebook, by the way, is

43:50

the best. Google ads, you know,

43:52

we did email lists, I bought,

43:54

you know, dedicated email

43:56

blasts from relevant websites.

43:59

We did. guest posting and other

44:01

things like that. Read it

44:04

ads and you name it like

44:06

I've tried it recently. And I

44:08

will say that without a doubt

44:11

Facebook is the king of crowdfunding

44:14

advertising. So if you have

44:16

a thousand dollars to spend

44:18

it is best spent on

44:20

Facebook. And the reason for

44:22

that is because you can

44:25

target people by interest.

44:27

and like sub-interest so like I

44:29

target all the people that

44:31

like Kickstarter I can also reduce

44:33

the amount of people that I'm

44:36

targeting that like Kickstarter by

44:38

the second interest of board games

44:40

and so all board gamers that

44:43

back Kickstarter projects you can easily

44:45

easily reach and what's very important

44:47

about that is that you eliminate

44:49

everyone else so whereas on X

44:52

or TikTok or whatever you're just

44:54

it's very hard to get as

44:56

granular as that. You can try, but

44:58

it just doesn't work nearly as well.

45:00

And so you're burning a lot of

45:03

money on the wrong people. So Facebook,

45:05

you're spending money on the right people.

45:07

So, you know, rather you can. Now,

45:09

you asked about the process, kind of

45:11

what we call the funnel, where you

45:13

see an ad, by the way, demonstration

45:16

is still the same. Demonstration

45:18

telling people what is it, what is

45:20

it, and all that applies to every

45:22

individual thing that you do

45:24

that is marketing related. including

45:26

Facebook ads. You can apply the same

45:29

process to just the Facebook ad, what it

45:31

is that you say, what your headline is,

45:33

what your primary text, what your image is,

45:35

etc. And then they go to a landing page,

45:37

which I still do believe is the best

45:40

process. Please, listeners do not do Facebook

45:42

lead ads, where they just get an email

45:44

address, because they're not getting an experience

45:46

with you when they're giving you an

45:48

email. It's like, it's just the easiest

45:50

thing to do, you click a button,

45:52

and then they're on to the next

45:54

thing. you make them interested

45:56

with your ad and then you you should

45:58

you should give them like story on

46:00

your landing page, whatever landing

46:02

page you go to, should demonstrate

46:05

your product and help them be

46:07

understand. By the way, another

46:09

fundamental I really wanted to get in

46:12

there is like, don't, don't do, make

46:14

sure that the primary thing that you're

46:16

trying to sell is the actual

46:18

product, instead of trying to say like,

46:20

oh, join our email list for, you

46:22

know, and enter a chance to win

46:24

a copy of this or whatever. People

46:26

will do that because they want the

46:28

free thing. But that's not the main

46:31

thing that's going to keep you in

46:33

business. And that's not the main thing

46:35

that's going to make you successful.

46:37

It's a fringe thing that's a distraction.

46:39

You need people on your email

46:41

list that genuinely are very interested

46:44

in your stuff. And so if you use

46:46

a call to action of, oh, get three

46:48

free STL miniature downloads, then you

46:50

get people jumping on. I have

46:52

people that have like 80% open

46:54

rates for their automatic email response

46:56

because people wanted the downloads. Like

46:58

not. because they're interested in supporting

47:00

your next Kickstarter. And you

47:03

know, and so that's a really important thing to

47:05

consider. So the game, the actual product needs

47:07

to be the reason that somebody would jump

47:09

on an email list because they see value

47:11

in that thing. So yes, definitely make sure you

47:13

have a landing page that goes through the

47:15

same exact process. Tell me what it is and

47:17

show me it on the table. And if you don't have

47:19

all of those images, do the absolute pass that

47:21

you can. With given what you have, if you have,

47:24

if you have no money, if you have no money, then

47:26

you have no money, then you have. can

47:28

still find a way to demonstrate your

47:30

product. Just take a picture with your

47:32

iPhone, you know, do whatever you

47:34

got to do. I was taking pictures

47:37

of like my cardboard prototypes

47:39

and it's like that's the best I

47:41

got, you know, and I know I'm not going

47:43

to get every single person on my

47:45

email list at that point, but

47:47

there are people who are going to

47:49

see the vision and they're going to

47:51

follow me in and all that, right?

47:53

So that's a really important

47:55

principle. before you actually go

47:57

live and have something to sell.

48:00

Obviously you want people to buy

48:02

a product, but when they subscribe to your

48:04

email list, they are signaling to

48:06

you that they want more information.

48:08

And remember, every single email is

48:10

a different person, different interests,

48:13

different needs, and all of that. But

48:15

all of them together collectively have hopefully

48:17

said, I am interested in what it

48:19

is that you are sharing at this

48:21

point. I want more information. So that's

48:24

your opportunity, in my opinion, to

48:26

win the right to communicate with people

48:28

on your email list. across multiple

48:30

different mediums. This is something

48:32

that has changed a little

48:34

over time. So what I actually do,

48:37

our process at crowdfunding nerds, is

48:39

when they subscribe to the email

48:41

list, I will send them an

48:43

automated welcome email. It's like

48:45

an instant response email that says,

48:47

hey, thanks for joining. You're now,

48:49

you know, my company and CEDAW, whatever.

48:52

And it has links to your

48:54

social communities. What we used to

48:56

do. is just redirect people to

48:58

the social community like Facebook group

49:00

or a discord server back and

49:02

back five years ago. It was

49:04

only Facebook groups, you know. And now what

49:06

we do is we send the automated

49:08

welcome email that has the primary

49:11

goal of that welcome email is to

49:13

get people on the in the in

49:15

the community and your Facebook group and

49:17

your discord server for me a community

49:19

is something that. You can talk to

49:22

your people, your people can talk to

49:24

you, and very importantly, they can talk

49:26

to one another without your involvement. So

49:28

maybe ask each other rules questions or

49:30

whatever, you know, that's how we do

49:32

that. But then the automatic redirect

49:35

when they submit the email goes to

49:37

Kickstarter or Game Found so that they

49:39

can follow. So there's now on both

49:41

platforms, you can, you know, I'm sure back

49:43

your kid as well, but it's not common

49:45

that we market something over there. yet.

49:48

But so on Game Found you can follow

49:50

on Kickstarter you can follow

49:52

and there's this story page that

49:54

you can actually do like a

49:56

pre-marketing landing page where you can

49:59

share more there. and the overall the

50:01

email list you can each you know once

50:03

a month or whatever you send a

50:05

newsletter and you have you should have

50:07

like a single-minded goal for

50:09

every email that you send don't tell

50:11

me ten links don't give me

50:13

ten places that I can go give me

50:15

one place that I can go and like

50:17

two or three different locations that

50:19

you know buttons that I can go

50:22

do that one thing so if you want me

50:24

to read your latest update give

50:26

me like two or three buttons that I

50:28

can read the update in each section

50:30

with one of those buttons in it,

50:32

tell me a different reason why I might

50:35

want to go read the rest of that

50:37

update, you know? And, you know,

50:39

there's art and there's game development

50:41

stuff and, you know, here's a

50:43

personal update on me or whatever. So,

50:46

the general concept is, your

50:48

email list will help fuel all of

50:50

the other things. So, and then in return,

50:52

all of the other things that you've

50:54

got, your communities, your whatever.

50:57

will help remind people about the

50:59

email list. So like, you know, I send an

51:01

email, I post an update on Discord,

51:03

I post an update on board

51:06

game, gig, Kickstarter, whatever. And then

51:08

people like, oh, I can't find it,

51:10

it's in spam or whatever. You'll have

51:12

people that will like opt back in

51:14

your email or that will find, go

51:17

through their spam folder and find that

51:19

information because you let them know it

51:21

existed. But they don't actively open

51:23

that email account, but now they

51:25

do because. They're following you somewhere

51:28

else. And then, you know, of course,

51:30

you can point people toward your, you

51:32

know, followers on your, your various, you

51:34

know, Kickstarter Game Found pages.

51:36

And, um, the important thing about

51:38

this, this process is so, it's so

51:41

valuable to have an email list over,

51:43

let's say, I'm just going to

51:45

use the Kickstarter or Game Found.

51:47

Actually, it's one of my problems

51:49

with programs like, like, like, like,

51:51

like, like, like, Ad Found, or, whatever

51:53

way it's just like oh we're just gonna

51:55

direct people right to your page it's because

51:57

um you don't get the email so like what if

52:00

just don't back and don't you know they

52:02

follow but then they fall off and they

52:04

you know they didn't get into your ecosystem

52:06

then there's just that's it you know

52:09

it's like a less valuable lead whereas

52:11

like if you get him with the email

52:13

and then right away you you

52:15

cross-pollinate them into different groups

52:17

it's like totally it's way better so

52:19

also just along those lines me personally

52:22

I'm doing a campaign every month now

52:24

I wouldn't recommend anybody do that shenanigans

52:26

because it's insane but a lot of

52:28

companies they want to do more than

52:30

one campaign a year maybe two maybe three

52:32

and so if you're if you're just

52:34

directing people to the campaign page not

52:36

capturing any way to contact them directly

52:38

then you know maybe this game isn't for them

52:40

but that maybe the next one is so it's

52:43

the difference between are you trying to sell a

52:45

game or you're trying to build a company and

52:47

I'm trying to build a company I'm trying

52:49

to get people into the community of

52:51

the community of the solo game of the month concept

52:54

and yeah this month's game might not

52:56

be for you But maybe next month

52:58

or maybe six months from now, maybe

53:00

that's the game. You're like, oh, I

53:03

need that one. But if I

53:05

don't have your contact information, I

53:07

don't have your email address, I

53:09

can't do anything to let you know.

53:12

And so you might not even see

53:14

the ads, you know, six months from

53:16

now. So yeah, again, email list is

53:18

still king. Yeah. And you know, with

53:20

a company like ours, you know, what's

53:23

funny is a publicly traded.

53:25

company that helps people retire.

53:27

You know they sell they sell their house

53:29

in California and retire in a

53:32

nice community in Mexico and they are

53:34

actually the only company that

53:36

other than you that I work with that

53:38

launches so frequently if we're talking

53:40

you know just straight up like here's

53:43

an event I need people to it

53:45

and then afterward we got another event

53:47

they have like a dinner in Sacramento and

53:49

a dinner in San Diego and they have

53:51

a week. and the budget's this much

53:54

and just get as many butts in

53:56

those seats as you can and because it's

53:58

an event like you have to the event

54:00

and then we're on to the next

54:02

event and so I just thought

54:04

that's funny like you are about the

54:07

same work style as a as

54:09

this publicly traded company and Jacob

54:11

actually who works with you on

54:13

all your ads and stuff works

54:16

with that company too and just

54:18

fun to see you know such

54:20

similarity but yeah it's the the

54:22

problem that I see is you know you can

54:25

do it for one or two projects

54:27

but your scaling is going to

54:29

be it's going to be a

54:31

problem for you. When, like for example, let's

54:33

say you had no email list and

54:35

you just stuck with Game Found, you

54:37

would have to now send updates on

54:39

20 campaigns, or whatever, 16 I think

54:41

is what I see on Game Found. You would

54:44

have to send updates across that

54:46

many campaigns just to get everybody

54:48

that has ever interacted with

54:50

your company. Whereas if you get

54:52

them all in your email list

54:54

and you've been diligently following up

54:57

and collecting emails, like it's still

54:59

one. update. You send one email, you

55:01

get all your people, it's the highest

55:03

open rate, the highest, you know,

55:05

basically rate that people pay attention.

55:07

And then in addition to that, like if

55:09

you sent 16 updates, you know, one to

55:11

every, you know, one, just one update

55:14

to each of your projects, you know,

55:16

letting people know that the next game

55:18

was around. There are people who

55:20

have backed multiple projects, so you

55:22

will spam some people. You was

55:24

starting to meet people Matt.

55:26

Exactly. I had to

55:28

send me seven emails. Right.

55:30

I had some people comment

55:33

recently on a campaign and

55:35

they're saying, hey, you know, really

55:37

need an update. You know, it's

55:40

okay to post an update that

55:42

says there's no no news.

55:44

I'm like, no, I can't do that.

55:46

I've got too many people

55:48

that have backed multiple

55:51

campaigns on average. For

55:53

my company, the average backer. is

55:55

going to get three emails, three

55:57

messages from Game Found, three updates.

56:00

If I do a new update every

56:02

single month, for whatever reason.

56:04

But there's a lot of people

56:06

who have backed 14 games in

56:08

a row. So they're going to

56:10

get 14 emails. And all that's

56:12

going to do is similar to

56:14

what we were talking about earlier

56:17

with the batter ads and people

56:19

just turned their brain off

56:21

and they don't see those anymore.

56:23

That's what's going to happen. And

56:26

they're not going to open the

56:28

updates. Yeah, there's no value.

56:30

Exactly. So I'm to the point where I

56:33

will send an update when there's something

56:35

to let you know. Hey, the game

56:37

is shipping. Hey, the print and play

56:39

files, I just emailed those out. So

56:41

if you didn't get them, fill out

56:43

this form and I'll get them to you.

56:45

I only send updates when they are

56:47

necessary. And the cool thing over

56:50

the course of the last year is I've

56:52

really been able to hone in and

56:54

kind of polish the community to

56:56

the community. They're not like, oh,

56:58

he's stealing our money. They know,

57:00

like, one, I delivered nine games

57:02

last year. So hopefully that gives me

57:04

enough of a track record to say,

57:07

your game is coming. Yeah, it might

57:09

be a little late. It might be,

57:11

you know, something came up with production,

57:13

something came up, we had to reprint

57:16

something, the rulebook took longer for the

57:18

editor to finish, whatever, like things happened,

57:20

because that's just the nature of physical

57:22

products in the board game space and

57:24

dealing with so many international.

57:27

trust me and so that's another thing

57:29

you can do as a creator is you can

57:31

kind of hone in your community and

57:33

get them used to your cadence get them used

57:35

to kind of how you are I'm to the

57:37

point now where you know I used to spend

57:39

a lot of money on videos and

57:42

I was reaching out the influencers and

57:44

you know the influencers and you know

57:46

they were doing play-throughs and overviews

57:48

and I was paying money for the like

57:50

the the campaign video stuff like that I

57:53

was like why why am I'm spending so

57:55

much money every Backers in my community. So

57:57

now I do the overview video. I do the how

57:59

to play. do the playthrough and

58:01

I've gotten decent at it and I have

58:03

fun with it and I do the main video

58:06

and I don't do this like trailer you

58:08

know a lot of campaigns it's like

58:10

a movie trailer a hype trailer yeah

58:12

yeah and it's thousands of dollars it's

58:14

five grand ten grand sometimes people are

58:17

paying for these really nice 3d animation

58:19

narrator and that's awesome and if you

58:21

want to do that go for it

58:23

but what I found is now that I've

58:25

built a community I can do a video

58:28

that's just me sitting at

58:30

a table holding the game. Right,

58:32

I've got, here's, here's, literally

58:34

just like, hey, here's the game. This

58:36

is why it's fun. This is how it

58:38

plays. This is why I'm bringing it

58:41

to you this month. If you want to

58:43

back it, love to have you on board.

58:45

If not, I'll see you next month.

58:47

Like it's literally just me

58:49

talking to the community, almost

58:51

like 101, just like, hey, here's

58:54

the game. You know, here's the game.

58:56

You can do that in your email list,

58:58

but again, you have to be able

59:00

to connect. You have to be able

59:02

to talk to people directly and give

59:04

them your, you know, a little bit of

59:06

your personality and have some fun

59:08

with it. But, you know, don't overthink

59:11

it. Actually, let's get back to that

59:13

idea. One thing we talked about at

59:15

the very beginning of that idea. One

59:17

thing we talked about at the very

59:19

beginning of this episode was people

59:22

know, that they don't need to go,

59:24

you know, you know, necessarily. spend

59:26

a bunch of money hiring a

59:28

mentor or something like that. But

59:30

what are some of the simple

59:32

things that people understand

59:34

in marketing that they could

59:36

apply to crowdfunding? Yeah,

59:39

so first thing I was thinking

59:41

about is, so like, let's say you

59:43

drive to the store and you're

59:45

on the freeway and then you go

59:47

to the store, you come back home,

59:49

how many advertisements do

59:51

you think that you probably

59:53

saw? you know offhand say it's a 15 minute drive

59:56

to the store and back. Well for me none because

59:58

my town is tiny but like when I I

1:00:00

lived in Atlanta. Yeah, there were

1:00:02

tons of billboards, tons of, you

1:00:04

know, ads on sides of buses,

1:00:06

on cabs and stuff like that.

1:00:08

So I mean, I don't know. It's

1:00:10

50. Yeah, it's, it's, that's not

1:00:12

an unrealistic number. But how many

1:00:15

of those do you think you

1:00:17

actually paid attention to? Maybe one,

1:00:19

if it was funny. Yeah, right.

1:00:21

And then maybe other times you

1:00:23

would have never noticed it. Maybe

1:00:26

out of five trips, one billboard, you

1:00:28

finally. There was I can't remember

1:00:30

which interstate is right through the

1:00:33

heart of Atlanta. There was a

1:00:35

sunny delight billboard Right this massive

1:00:37

sunny delight this orange juice

1:00:39

type this orange juice adjacent

1:00:41

this Timu orange juice drink right

1:00:44

and It had the the jug of the

1:00:46

sunny light and in the only text on

1:00:48

it. It said everyone wants the D I

1:00:50

was like that's funny now. I saw that

1:00:52

billboard like six years ago

1:00:55

something like that's something like it

1:00:57

was I think pre-covet, I saw

1:00:59

that billboard, it still sticks out

1:01:01

in my mind. So that one,

1:01:03

I remember, because it was funny

1:01:05

and I saw what they were doing there.

1:01:07

But yeah, in general, they're, they're

1:01:10

forgettable. Chick-fil-a does a great

1:01:12

job of being funny and

1:01:14

having like the 3D cows that

1:01:16

are hanging off the side of the billboard.

1:01:19

So, you know, those companies have

1:01:21

to go the extra mile to

1:01:23

just be noticed when most of

1:01:25

them you just pass right by. They

1:01:27

don't like to be sold, but they

1:01:29

love to buy stuff, which seems

1:01:31

like a conundrum. It's just that

1:01:33

your job is to remember that, you

1:01:36

know, as a customer, what do you

1:01:38

hate? Do you, when you go, like, I

1:01:40

don't know, it's a target or,

1:01:42

Walmart doesn't really have employees that

1:01:44

are on the floor nowadays,

1:01:46

it feels like, you know,

1:01:49

when you're looking for someone,

1:01:51

you can't find anybody, you

1:01:53

can't find anybody, but whenever

1:01:55

anybody, get my phone worked

1:01:57

on for something and I

1:01:59

was like Oh no, no thanks, I'm

1:02:01

just looking, right? Because I don't want

1:02:03

you to sell me a printer, you know,

1:02:05

get on my face, you know, if I

1:02:07

want to buy a printer, I will know

1:02:10

the printer and I will ask

1:02:12

you a question about that printer,

1:02:14

right? Because I'm expecting that the

1:02:16

person in the store is a

1:02:18

salesperson, that needs to make a

1:02:20

commission, and all of those stereotypes

1:02:23

are in my head. And so it just,

1:02:25

it comes out in a very polite

1:02:27

way, so I'm just having. you

1:02:29

know, spoken about. So think about

1:02:31

yourself as a consumer and

1:02:34

what you like and what you don't

1:02:36

like. That's so important. If

1:02:38

you can like take your

1:02:40

sales or rather take your

1:02:43

publisher hat off and just

1:02:45

put like a regular average

1:02:47

human hat on and say like

1:02:49

how would I perceive this if I

1:02:51

was just, you know, not me, you know,

1:02:53

if I was not my, you

1:02:55

know, like for me, I'm a

1:02:57

quote unquote. marketing expert I have

1:03:00

a t-shirt right here with my

1:03:02

company's name on it and it's like

1:03:04

I just need to like how would I

1:03:06

perceive you know all of this stuff

1:03:08

that I'm typing if I was

1:03:10

just a regular customer like

1:03:12

is it clear do I understand who

1:03:14

I am and how to win and why

1:03:17

my actions in this universe matter

1:03:19

you know to the greater good

1:03:21

or whatever like I need to

1:03:23

understand certain things and if I

1:03:25

don't then I just don't have

1:03:27

context for all the rest, right?

1:03:29

And so sometimes you're simply putting

1:03:31

yourself in the shoes of your

1:03:34

customer and asking yourself how will they

1:03:36

perceive this? You know, and where will they

1:03:38

start? They'll need to know what it is.

1:03:40

And after they know what it is, you know, I'm

1:03:42

missing like every, yeah, I'm missing something.

1:03:44

I don't know what, like what is

1:03:47

the next questions they're going to ask?

1:03:49

You know, what's the next thing they want

1:03:51

to know? After the box is checked,

1:03:53

oh, oh, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I

1:03:55

know. So, like, if I ask you, hey,

1:03:57

Gabe, what's your profession? What do you

1:03:59

do? It's like for one of the first questions

1:04:02

that, you know, men oftentimes ask one another,

1:04:04

just to make small talk and they're met

1:04:06

you before, where to park, your kids playing

1:04:09

next to my kid. And I'm like, hey,

1:04:11

what's your name first, right? And then it's like,

1:04:13

oh, I'm game. What's, what do you do? You know,

1:04:15

and what's your response? I say, I

1:04:17

run a publishing company, because if I say a

1:04:19

board game publishing company, people look at

1:04:21

me like, like, do you make, like, do you

1:04:23

make checkers, Connect 4, do you sell monopoly?

1:04:26

You know, most people aren't in the hobby

1:04:28

side of this stuff. So I just say,

1:04:30

I run a publishing company. Which is great,

1:04:32

because that's all I want to do is

1:04:35

like, Mark, I just want to like check a

1:04:37

box. It's like, okay, publishing company. If

1:04:39

I can understand it, it's like,

1:04:41

all right, I can move on to the next thing.

1:04:43

If you get too complicated, it's

1:04:45

like, I'm just trying to put you in a

1:04:47

box. So tell me you're tell me you're

1:04:49

a dentist. You know you operate on teeth

1:04:52

and blah blah blah blah blah blah

1:04:54

it's like dude just tell me you're

1:04:56

a dentist you know the funniest

1:04:58

one I've heard was someone someone

1:05:00

said I kill old people for insurance money

1:05:02

I was like oh okay I don't know

1:05:05

if he was joking I assume but

1:05:07

I don't know who knows that's that's

1:05:09

curious but the I guess the important

1:05:11

thing is it needs to be very

1:05:14

easy to understand just as a customer

1:05:16

whatever it is that you make has

1:05:18

to be to understand why Don't buy

1:05:20

anything. So if you write in a complicated

1:05:23

manner, if you demonstrate in

1:05:25

a complicated manner, if you share what

1:05:27

it is that you're doing, and it takes

1:05:29

more than two lines, you're gonna just

1:05:31

lose people. People scan. They don't

1:05:33

even read. They're gonna like read

1:05:36

the one line headline or the three

1:05:38

word headline. They're gonna read the first

1:05:40

like half of the first sentence in

1:05:42

the first paragraph, and then they're

1:05:44

skipping to the next section. And

1:05:47

if they can't like... Grock the the

1:05:49

I say Grock it's not the I think

1:05:51

Elon Musk named it after the

1:05:53

concept which is if they can't

1:05:55

intrinsically understand what

1:05:57

it is that this thing is

1:06:00

with like that quick scan, they're

1:06:02

probably not gonna buy it. So,

1:06:04

you know, think about how you, when

1:06:06

you buy things. Another thing is like,

1:06:09

it just feels so complicated

1:06:11

sometimes for everyday normal

1:06:13

people, the medium of things

1:06:16

like, I have to build a landing page,

1:06:18

I don't know how to do that. I

1:06:20

have to, you know, do Facebook ads,

1:06:22

I don't know how to do that.

1:06:24

So, actually that kind of. you know

1:06:26

I we launched a we're launching actually courses

1:06:29

in these spaces filled with

1:06:31

like very concentrated actional information

1:06:33

to help you do the

1:06:35

things that you must if you plan on

1:06:38

marketing stuff because bottom line is

1:06:40

like as a publisher somebody who's

1:06:42

self publishing you're creating a

1:06:45

business and you got to learn to

1:06:47

do a lot of new things a lot

1:06:49

and fulfillment is something that's very few

1:06:51

people understand it's like oh but I

1:06:53

can kick that came down the road.

1:06:56

marketing, if you kick the can down

1:06:58

the road and you launch a

1:07:00

crowdfunding campaign without marketing, it's

1:07:02

like, you're, you know, not going to

1:07:05

succeed or it's not going to be, it's

1:07:07

going to be a shade of what it could

1:07:09

have been, right? And so the,

1:07:11

you know, we developed three courses,

1:07:13

one on the crowdfunding page, the

1:07:15

actual way that it should be laid out,

1:07:17

what makes a good offer, you know, all sorts

1:07:19

of things we talk about like, you know, you

1:07:22

know, how to, how to like. demonstrate

1:07:24

the product in the best possible

1:07:26

light specific to tabletop games. Then

1:07:28

we we did another course we

1:07:31

actually released this one two years

1:07:33

ago originally and it was it was

1:07:35

awesome people loved it it was on

1:07:37

Facebook ads how to go from zero to

1:07:40

funded on day one. We've since proven

1:07:42

that case study over 200 or I'm

1:07:44

sorry over 150 times with first time

1:07:46

creators. We have helped over 150

1:07:49

first time creators fund their

1:07:51

projects on day one which is pretty cool.

1:07:53

And then we also released

1:07:56

another one, which is

1:07:58

email marketing. for crowdfunding

1:08:01

Mars and like, all right, let's go over

1:08:03

like the five most common, and I

1:08:05

spent like two hours of this four hour

1:08:07

concentrated course on how to write a

1:08:10

good subject line. It's the most

1:08:12

important thing you could possibly do

1:08:14

when you're email marketing and we

1:08:16

did like a workshop of, you know, I

1:08:18

took terraforming Mars and I'm

1:08:20

like, all right, let's go over like the

1:08:22

five most common terrible subject lines that

1:08:25

I see all the time. and how

1:08:27

will we make those subject lines into

1:08:29

good ones for this particular game so

1:08:31

i use that and then i i break out

1:08:33

like what are great subject lines that i

1:08:35

have written that had great results for

1:08:37

me and so on so i think that um

1:08:40

an email an email without a good subject line

1:08:42

is like a nice house or a mansion without

1:08:44

a door it's like it could be the best

1:08:46

house in the world but if you don't have a

1:08:48

way to get in What are we doing?

1:08:50

And so yeah, subject line is the

1:08:52

same thing. If you can't get somebody

1:08:55

to click on the message to read

1:08:57

the amazing update that you have,

1:08:59

then you've kind of wasted

1:09:01

everybody's time. Yeah. Yeah, it's just

1:09:04

your stuff is going to get filtered

1:09:06

into the spam folder or. Or the

1:09:08

promotions tab. Yeah, just scroll.

1:09:10

You know, my wife has like 10,000

1:09:12

unread emails on her account. Like every time

1:09:15

I look, I see her phone. I see

1:09:17

her phone. I see her. make me lose

1:09:19

my mind. But I feel like she's

1:09:21

not alone. There's a lot of people.

1:09:23

They just like, they don't even bother

1:09:26

to click it to like let it,

1:09:28

they don't even market as red. They

1:09:30

just scroll on by. So yeah, our

1:09:32

courses are really designed to kind of

1:09:34

fill the gap between the knowledge gap

1:09:37

and to help people kind of

1:09:39

connect the things that they already

1:09:41

know. Like for example, what makes

1:09:43

their game awesome. with like how to

1:09:46

express that in the medium of Facebook

1:09:48

ads, how to put that on your

1:09:50

Kickstarter page in a manner that actually

1:09:52

will absorb through the crocodile brain into

1:09:55

the neocortex where people can reason and

1:09:57

rationalize why they should actually buy

1:09:59

this. right? Um, people are very

1:10:01

emotional creatures. They tend to buy

1:10:04

on emotion and then justify

1:10:06

with logic afterward. They're

1:10:08

like, you know, for me, $400 on

1:10:10

a game, it's ridiculous. And then, but

1:10:12

I'm like, well, but, you know, free

1:10:14

shipping. It's like, yeah, dude, they can put

1:10:16

$100. Well, Andrew, you've got like 14

1:10:18

kids. So going to the movies one

1:10:21

time is about 400 bucks. So, you

1:10:23

know, it's like, it's like going to

1:10:25

the movies. Oh yeah. So it's funny, you

1:10:27

know, but I think that the biggest

1:10:29

problem that I've seen, you know, like we

1:10:32

run our marketing agency if you

1:10:34

want to get our full service, it's

1:10:36

like 3,000 bucks and it goes up

1:10:38

from there and it's split over a

1:10:41

number of months, but it's very

1:10:43

expensive for a lot of people

1:10:45

that are listening to this podcast.

1:10:47

And the reality is they can't

1:10:49

afford that. They might have 2,000

1:10:51

dollars. for every bit of

1:10:54

marketing including reviewers and

1:10:56

prototypes and everything so like

1:10:58

how are they going to afford a

1:11:00

service like mine you have to either hope

1:11:02

you know find somebody that like

1:11:05

isn't a professional but says

1:11:07

they can do it and just throw all

1:11:09

your chips in on them and hope

1:11:11

that you get a good result. spoiler

1:11:13

it's not usually a good result

1:11:16

or do it yourself and that is

1:11:18

where you get the best result

1:11:20

because nobody cares more. then you

1:11:22

do about your baby, right? About your

1:11:24

project you've been working on. And so

1:11:27

what I decided to do, you know, we

1:11:29

really start, we have our crowdfunding

1:11:31

nerds podcast like episode 225 at

1:11:33

this point, closing it on that. And that's

1:11:35

all free content that we share

1:11:37

everything that we do. We hold nothing

1:11:40

back and we just share everything for

1:11:42

the purpose of helping people do it on

1:11:44

their own. And you know, like we have lots of

1:11:46

great clients that join us on there every

1:11:48

once in a while you've been on there

1:11:50

a couple of times. It's been really fun,

1:11:53

but that's something that I think really

1:11:55

benefits people. But what about like

1:11:57

everyone in the middle that needs some

1:11:59

guidance? that is not willing to

1:12:01

listen to 227 or 225 hours of

1:12:04

content in order to get that. You

1:12:06

know, like Kickstarter lessons

1:12:08

on Jamie Stakemeyer's blog,

1:12:10

amazing resource, only like, you

1:12:13

know, 450 lessons to read, and

1:12:15

then you can get started. It's like,

1:12:17

who has time to do all of

1:12:19

this now? You know? And so what

1:12:21

we did was we created these courses

1:12:24

that are highly concentrated

1:12:26

pieces of like essential pieces of

1:12:29

the puzzle. that you can jump

1:12:31

in. And normally they're 700

1:12:33

bucks. You know, our Facebook

1:12:35

course, we actually raised from

1:12:37

600 to 700. We were selling it

1:12:39

at 600 for the last two years.

1:12:42

We had this really low deal when

1:12:44

we first launched it. And our

1:12:46

whole, actually we're doing the same

1:12:48

thing right now for like the month

1:12:51

of March were bundling everything

1:12:53

and selling it for $690

1:12:55

for all three courses. or 399

1:12:57

for a single course, and I think 599

1:12:59

for two of them. And yeah, I mean, we're

1:13:01

just basically just doing this,

1:13:03

you know, this podcast partially to

1:13:05

just help people understand that

1:13:08

you know way more about marketing than

1:13:10

you think. You just have to put

1:13:12

yourself in the place of the customer

1:13:14

and figure out, you know, make

1:13:16

the connection between like demonstrating something

1:13:18

and me wanting to buy

1:13:21

the thing. You know, if you do

1:13:23

an effective demonstration, like. I will buy the

1:13:25

thing like Billy Mays and Oxy Clean or

1:13:27

the Shamwell guy or you know half the

1:13:29

people that go to Shark Tank make me

1:13:32

want to buy their thing because

1:13:34

their demonstration is so effective. So

1:13:36

how can you do that exact same thing

1:13:38

on every little bit of thing

1:13:40

that you touch that is marketing

1:13:42

related? Anything that faces a customer,

1:13:44

your Facebook ad, your email marketing,

1:13:47

your you know landing page, your Facebook

1:13:49

group and what you post weekly

1:13:51

or whatever? So these courses are just going

1:13:53

to help you get there faster. Right. And

1:13:55

they're excellent. You sent me, the course is

1:13:57

a while back to kind of check out and offer.

1:14:00

some feedback and give some ideas on.

1:14:02

And so, you know, I think they're

1:14:04

excellent. I was already planning to do

1:14:06

this little mini series of podcasts, like

1:14:09

it's something I want to do, I've wanted

1:14:11

to do for a couple months now, just

1:14:13

kind of get, you know, sit back down

1:14:15

in the chair with the microphone and chat

1:14:18

with some people that I really enjoy talking

1:14:20

to. And it just kind of worked out

1:14:22

timing wise that you were running, you know,

1:14:24

selling these courses like, oh, hey, let's just

1:14:26

kind of roll that in together. community. One

1:14:29

thing I reached out to you about recently,

1:14:31

and I think you thought was a pretty

1:14:33

good idea, was offering free coaching, on my

1:14:35

part, I say free, coaching on my part, if

1:14:37

you buy the course through the board game design

1:14:39

lab link, and I'll put the link everywhere you

1:14:41

can find links, you get a free hour of

1:14:44

coaching or consulting for me, right? Because

1:14:46

it's something going back to what you

1:14:48

were saying. A lot of people, especially

1:14:50

just starting out, they don't have thousands

1:14:52

and thousands and thousands of dollars. to

1:14:54

hire a company and whatever. You know,

1:14:57

launch boom is really expensive. Gelop can

1:14:59

be expensive. Like there's a lot of

1:15:01

companies out there that sell services

1:15:03

that are just not, they don't make sense

1:15:05

for a lot of companies, especially if you're

1:15:07

selling a $20 game and your margin is

1:15:10

seven bucks. Like it's hard to justify spending

1:15:12

a whole bunch of money on something yet

1:15:14

you don't even know is going to pay

1:15:16

it out. And so I think these courses

1:15:18

offer an extremely good entry point for people

1:15:21

just getting who we're offering, you know. For

1:15:23

your first game, don't sell a $100 game.

1:15:25

You know, just don't do that in general. It's not a good

1:15:27

idea. You know, sell a $20 game, sell a $30 game. But

1:15:29

if that being the case, you're not just not going

1:15:31

to have as much margin to play with. And so

1:15:34

this is a great entry point for people just to

1:15:36

figure things out to get started without having to listen

1:15:38

to hundreds and hundreds of hours of

1:15:40

podcast information, my show, your show, Jamie

1:15:42

Stagmire, and YouTube, all these different places.

1:15:44

And so all these different places. And

1:15:46

so anyway. Yeah, if you if you

1:15:48

use my link, my feeling link to

1:15:50

get the course. We actually created one

1:15:52

for you. It's a crowdfunding nerds.com/bgDL is going

1:15:54

to get you there. All you have to do,

1:15:57

you'll get to learn all about the courses and

1:15:59

whatnot. But, um. but press any button

1:16:01

that says go to the course and

1:16:03

you get and it's gave's link and

1:16:05

it's it's really amazing what gave is

1:16:08

offering that free hour of coaching just

1:16:10

so it's honestly with all of what

1:16:12

it is that we're doing your link

1:16:14

is the most value for the money

1:16:17

I mean it's already it's already $2,100

1:16:19

of courses for 70 or for $700,

1:16:21

699 or whatever it's like two-thirds off

1:16:23

but then. To add on that extra

1:16:25

hour of coaching is really awesome. Yeah,

1:16:28

I've been getting more into coaching and

1:16:30

consulting lately, mainly because I've run into

1:16:32

all the problems. I think you can

1:16:34

run into, I've run, you know, 14

1:16:37

campaigns in a row, 14 months. I've

1:16:39

got a lot of scars, and if

1:16:41

I can help other people get the

1:16:43

lessons without the scars, that's great. Like,

1:16:45

I've fallen in the holes. Shipping, fulfillment,

1:16:48

you know, pricing. working with freelancers that

1:16:50

don't work out. You know, all sorts

1:16:52

of things I've run into that I've

1:16:54

been able to help other people with.

1:16:56

And I think this is just an

1:16:59

excellent way to kind of do that

1:17:01

on a bigger scale. And so yeah,

1:17:03

I'm excited to chat with designers, publishers,

1:17:05

people. A lot of times, designers, people,

1:17:08

a lot of times, people. And so

1:17:10

yeah, I'm excited to chat with designers,

1:17:12

publishers, people, people. A lot of times

1:17:14

people, I'm like, I'm excited to chat

1:17:16

with designers, designers, designers, designers, designers, to

1:17:19

chat with, designers, designers, to chat with

1:17:21

designers, designers, designers, to chat with, designers,

1:17:23

designers, to chat with, designers, designers, designers,

1:17:25

to chat with, designers, to chat with,

1:17:28

designers, designers, designers, to, designers, to, to,

1:17:30

designers, to, to, to, to, to, to,

1:17:32

to, to, to, meet new publishers and

1:17:34

help them get further down the road

1:17:36

faster than I did, right? And yeah,

1:17:39

I'm excited. So I really appreciate the

1:17:41

partnership. Yeah, it's such a blessing. You

1:17:43

know, when I started marketing in this

1:17:45

space, I run this company since 2009.

1:17:48

You know, I actually did a board

1:17:50

game, a website for a board game

1:17:52

called Constitution Quest in like 2014, which

1:17:54

was like, what is it? I can't

1:17:56

remember. I can't remember the game now.

1:17:59

Are you George Washington or cheesy? requesting

1:18:01

for the Constitution? Yeah, well, you have

1:18:03

to answer questions about the US Constitution

1:18:05

as like you move your little part

1:18:08

cheesy token around. It's funny. But that

1:18:10

was back in like 2014. But my

1:18:12

first experience with like actually marketing a

1:18:14

crowdfunding project was 2019. And it's gotten,

1:18:16

it's become more complicated since then because

1:18:19

your product has to look more complete

1:18:21

than ever before. You know, it was

1:18:23

good if your product looked more premium

1:18:25

back in 2019, but now it's like

1:18:28

if your product doesn't look premium, then

1:18:30

there are so many things out there

1:18:32

that do. You know, and another thing

1:18:34

is like for the average person, a

1:18:36

lot of the time when people come

1:18:39

to me for consulting or other things

1:18:41

like that, they will have started Facebook

1:18:43

ads and they're asking me the wrong

1:18:45

questions. They're asking me like, oh, I'm

1:18:48

getting 20 cents a click, or I'm

1:18:50

getting 10 cents a click, is that

1:18:52

good. And it's like, well, what is

1:18:54

that actually, like what are the result

1:18:56

producing things that happen because you're spending

1:18:59

money on Facebook ads? Are you getting

1:19:01

more people on your email lists that

1:19:03

are interacting with your community that back

1:19:05

your campaign? Like, and for the most

1:19:08

part, people can't make the connection between

1:19:10

those things. And so that's one of

1:19:12

the things that courses will help with

1:19:14

is like, they just, you know, by

1:19:16

the way, a lot of the time

1:19:19

when people don't know what's actually happening

1:19:21

with their marketing dollars, they... Or if

1:19:23

they don't understand why sending a monthly

1:19:25

email is going to be good for

1:19:27

their long term, they stop doing it.

1:19:30

So a lot of the time people

1:19:32

are like, oh, I'm going to do

1:19:34

this on my own, and they spend

1:19:36

$100 on Facebook, and they're like, well,

1:19:39

I don't really know what that did

1:19:41

for me. I hope 10 cents a

1:19:43

click is good, but I don't want

1:19:45

to just keep burning money, and so

1:19:47

they shut it off. And I will

1:19:50

help you spend your money, that you

1:19:52

can actively track and measure. And I

1:19:54

think that's one of the most important

1:19:56

things just, you know, like, how do

1:19:59

I know? that I'm doing the right

1:20:01

thing, you know, is a lot of

1:20:03

the time what people will ask, you

1:20:05

know, in varying versions, whether it's marketing

1:20:07

or like related to publishing in a

1:20:10

different way, like logistics, like, how do

1:20:12

I know if I'm, what I'm doing

1:20:14

is right? And you help people, like,

1:20:16

crazy, answer those questions in all sorts

1:20:19

of areas. And I feel like sometimes

1:20:21

we can be like, do you ever

1:20:23

feel like a psychiatrist when you're talking

1:20:25

to someone? Yeah, because so much of

1:20:27

business is like, is emotional. People don't

1:20:30

just buy things emotionally. They sell things

1:20:32

emotionally too, right? And there's all sorts

1:20:34

of psychological things happening on both sides.

1:20:36

So yeah, definitely. It's funny, you know,

1:20:39

but yeah, so, you know, I hope

1:20:41

that the launching, it's called our crowdfunding

1:20:43

nerds Academy. We really want to like

1:20:45

get further into course work and just

1:20:47

helping people help themselves, you know, and

1:20:50

so what we're planning is basically just.

1:20:52

this launch point if you know people

1:20:54

want to jump and grab all the

1:20:56

courses or whatever it's going to be

1:20:59

the lowest price that'll ever be it'll

1:21:01

have lifetime access lifetime access to updates

1:21:03

by the way so anything that we

1:21:05

change anything that gets like Facebook ads

1:21:07

has changed several times over the years

1:21:10

and we've updated our course several times

1:21:12

to keep to make sure that you

1:21:14

know how to find the Facebook pixel

1:21:16

and install it or you know whatever

1:21:19

if that how to navigate the business

1:21:21

manager You know, and see if your

1:21:23

ads are working where the buttons are

1:21:25

have changed and and all that. So

1:21:27

our courses need to update. And so

1:21:30

if you grab them, you get lifetime

1:21:32

updates. Yeah, that's great. And like I

1:21:34

said, I went, I've gone through them.

1:21:36

They're excellent. I'm excited for other people

1:21:38

to go through them and get all

1:21:41

the value out on. Andrew, this has

1:21:43

been great. Man, any kind of closing

1:21:45

thoughts, anything else that maybe we didn't

1:21:47

dive into, anything that comes to mind

1:21:50

as far as far as far as

1:21:52

marketing, you want to. leave listeners with?

1:21:54

Man, well I think the first thing

1:21:56

is, you know, we're going to be

1:21:58

advertising the crowdfunding nerds academy everywhere, but

1:22:01

if you're listening to this podcast, I'd

1:22:03

really love you to grab it through

1:22:05

Gaves, Gaves Link, just to support what

1:22:07

it is that you're doing. I think

1:22:10

it's amazing, just crowdfundingnerds.com/be GDL for like

1:22:12

four game design lab. And I want

1:22:14

to say like I'm so proud of

1:22:16

you for how far you've come, like

1:22:18

you've raised a million dollars over the

1:22:21

course of like, you know, whatever it

1:22:23

is 20 projects or 16 projects that

1:22:25

have been exclusively like generally solo. And

1:22:27

you're really kind of paving new territory.

1:22:30

I don't know, it's just really cool

1:22:32

to see. And you get to like

1:22:34

be like your marketing partner on that.

1:22:36

It's been really fun. But just to

1:22:38

see how you've grown and how you've

1:22:41

made quick decisions, your like your goal

1:22:43

is to fail fast. You're like, I'm

1:22:45

going to figure it out and then

1:22:47

like be done. And you know, it's

1:22:50

and you pivot quickly, which I think

1:22:52

is really fantastic. So you're an excellent

1:22:54

case study to watch. I think, you

1:22:56

know, listeners that have been kind of

1:22:58

wondering what Gave's been up to, he's

1:23:01

been a busy B. like follow game

1:23:03

on you know best with one on

1:23:05

game found like doing all your stuff

1:23:07

what do you what do you got

1:23:10

coming out you have um so Rome

1:23:12

the Rome deluxe and we'll be back

1:23:14

for a second first of all thank

1:23:16

you I appreciate that but the cool

1:23:18

thing about doing so many campaigns is

1:23:21

I can experiment constantly hey what if

1:23:23

we do this what if we change

1:23:25

it to that what if I didn't

1:23:27

pay a bunch of youtopers to do

1:23:30

the videos what if I did the

1:23:32

videos to the videos what if I

1:23:34

did on myself okay let's trying Let's

1:23:36

keep doing that. Let's try ads that

1:23:38

do this. Let's try, let's offer an

1:23:41

add-on. Let's offer a neoprene play map.

1:23:43

Does that work? Okay, it did. Okay,

1:23:45

let's, there's so many experiments that you're

1:23:47

able to run, because, or I'm able

1:23:49

to run, because I'm doing so many

1:23:52

campaigns, but every month's an adventure. I

1:23:54

never really know going in. Okay. I

1:23:56

have an idea. This is gonna go

1:23:58

well. This month is Rome deluxe edition.

1:24:01

I did last year and it did

1:24:03

really well and people love it and

1:24:05

some people a lot of people said

1:24:07

the best game of the year for

1:24:09

solo games. It's like cool. Let's let's

1:24:12

do a reprint. I ran out of

1:24:14

stock immediately. I think I sold out

1:24:16

I had extra copies and I sold

1:24:18

those out in like 15 minutes. Yeah,

1:24:21

there's nothing. I backed that one. Yeah,

1:24:23

I appreciate. And so it's like, all

1:24:25

right, let's do a reprint and let's,

1:24:27

I had all these people asking for

1:24:29

deluxe stuff and it's like, let's, let's

1:24:32

give people what they want. Give them

1:24:34

a good deal on it, right? It

1:24:36

just makes sense. And then everybody's happy,

1:24:38

right? I can pay my bills and

1:24:41

people get what they want in Nashville.

1:24:43

So I think it's nothing about marketing.

1:24:45

Don't overthink it. Figure out what people

1:24:47

want, typically by asking them, against, good

1:24:49

to have people want, typically by asking

1:24:52

them, against, good to have people on

1:24:54

your email list, that way you can

1:24:56

say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this,

1:24:58

put out a poll, and let people

1:25:01

give you their data, you know, their

1:25:03

information, as far as far as far

1:25:05

as like what they prefer what they

1:25:07

prefer what they prefer, what they prefer,

1:25:09

and then, what they prefer, and then,

1:25:12

So I'm excited about this coming up

1:25:14

campaign. I've got some really cool. I

1:25:16

mean, I am so pumped for some

1:25:18

of the games that are coming later

1:25:21

this year. And I'll probably put out

1:25:23

an email soon to the best with

1:25:25

one email list and just say, hey,

1:25:27

here's the cover art for three games

1:25:29

coming later this year. And some of

1:25:32

them are unbelievable. And yeah, I was

1:25:34

really pumped to you on a sign.

1:25:36

I signed a game a couple weeks

1:25:38

ago from a designer who I love.

1:25:41

I think he's an excellent designer. really

1:25:43

cool to get him on board on

1:25:45

the team and then other games coming

1:25:47

out later this year as well. But

1:25:49

yeah man every every month's adventure and

1:25:52

experiment and we just keep riding the

1:25:54

wife. Yeah yeah so I guess I

1:25:56

guess like last minute advice I have

1:25:58

I have one thing that I think

1:26:00

is really important. I see experienced companies

1:26:03

and new companies doing this where they

1:26:05

fail to involve their community and they

1:26:07

just like give them what they think

1:26:09

they think they think they think they

1:26:12

want. And the community responds saying, we

1:26:14

don't want this. And a lot of

1:26:16

the time, and you know, as a

1:26:18

constant, They, you know, experience companies, especially

1:26:20

lately, I don't want to name any

1:26:23

names, but like have canceled campaigns that

1:26:25

they, you know, after many very successful

1:26:27

campaigns, they've canceled others that I've seen

1:26:29

have, you know, made way less than

1:26:32

they, and they were expecting. And it's

1:26:34

oftentimes all rooted even before the game

1:26:36

is conceived. It's rooted in the, or

1:26:38

the Kickstarter, whatever. It's rooted in like

1:26:40

their starting assumptions. That is where companies

1:26:43

just without sharing your very beginning assumptions

1:26:45

with your audience, you can fall flat

1:26:47

on your face. And it's such an

1:26:49

easy thing to do. You can ask

1:26:52

your people, like for example, my deliverance

1:26:54

people, hey, do you guys want an

1:26:56

expansion? Is a really good question to

1:26:58

ask. And they said yes. So I

1:27:00

made an expansion. And we made 60%

1:27:03

more than our first campaign. We reprinted

1:27:05

the base game and we, which is

1:27:07

hard to do. It's hard to make

1:27:09

a lot more on the next printing,

1:27:12

even though we see a lot of

1:27:14

success stories that have reprintings that are,

1:27:16

you know, that have raised more. It's

1:27:18

actually a quite a hard thing to

1:27:20

do. And so if I just made

1:27:23

it without asking, you know, a lot

1:27:25

of companies do, they always come up

1:27:27

with a follow-up product after you've. experience

1:27:29

the first Kickstarter and you're like I'm

1:27:32

I'm assuming that you liked that one

1:27:34

and you're gonna want another game using

1:27:36

that same system sometimes like if I

1:27:38

did that without asking it would have

1:27:40

been fine because my community did want

1:27:43

something like that but many times you

1:27:45

know I'll see people go for like

1:27:47

a deluxe edition or a super duper

1:27:49

deluxe edition and rather than simply it

1:27:52

being as cut and dry as like

1:27:54

oh do you want this or not.

1:27:56

if you have customers that have your

1:27:58

that have purchased a previous edition you

1:28:00

have to make sure that they are

1:28:03

satisfied like hey I'm producing a deluxe

1:28:05

edition of this like if for example

1:28:07

like you produce your Rome deluxe edition

1:28:09

and you don't have an upgrade kit

1:28:12

you get people mad mad but then

1:28:14

you know if you if you ask

1:28:16

them like hey would you guys like

1:28:18

an upgrade kit they're gonna be like

1:28:20

yes I'd really like this token to

1:28:23

be upgraded that be so great Or

1:28:25

I'd really like, here's my ideas, and

1:28:27

you're like, great, because I've already thought

1:28:29

of those things and I'm making it

1:28:31

happen, you're gonna get your people on

1:28:34

board. But the assumptions that people make

1:28:36

at the very beginning of the conception

1:28:38

of their product, oftentimes without talking to

1:28:40

a community of fans, it's just, it's

1:28:43

like, why would you voluntarily put a

1:28:45

blindfold on to? you know, throw darts

1:28:47

at a dartboard, right? If you needed

1:28:49

to hit a bullseye or if you

1:28:51

needed to throw well, you want to

1:28:54

take the blindfold off. And the way

1:28:56

that you do that is by talking

1:28:58

to your community. So that's like, I'm

1:29:00

such a big advocate for that. I

1:29:03

want to talk to my people and

1:29:05

I want them to be able to

1:29:07

talk to me. And so that's my

1:29:09

last bit of parting advice. Yeah, and

1:29:11

I wholeheartedly agree. Well Andrew this has

1:29:14

been great really glad to have you

1:29:16

back on the show and I just

1:29:18

chat through all these things good luck

1:29:20

with crowdfunding nerds and the course and

1:29:23

and bringing deliverance you know the expansion

1:29:25

everything to life I know it's you

1:29:27

got a lot going on as much

1:29:29

as I've got going on you got

1:29:31

a lot going on too man and

1:29:34

so yeah good luck with that and

1:29:36

everything else you got going on right

1:29:38

now. Thanks man I appreciate it.