0:00

So thanks everybody for joining us today on the Boring AI Show.

0:02

We're going to be talking about flow state and joining us today and our special guest is Emerson Smith, who is a human-centered design consultant and guru in all things flow state, and we're really excited to talk to you today about the intersection between HCD, human-centered design, flow state and AI.

0:22

So thank you for joining us today, emerson. Thanks, tim.

0:26

Excited to be here, Hi Tally Good to talk to you again.

0:29

Absolutely.

0:30

Excited to chat today.

0:32

Yeah, and, as always, tally joining us.

0:34

And Tally, you got some news for us today.

0:38

Where are we starting off today?

0:40

I do. So there's always some AI news out there, but I think that this article is really interesting from a psychological standpoint, which I know is really where the basis of our conversation today is going to go, so I thought it was quite fitting.

0:52

So, essentially, replica the company Replica is a chatbot organization that allows users to create AI companions, and replica users say that they formed emotional attachments to AI chatbots.

1:15

So they had a recent update that caused some of the features to be taken away and users who had developed emotional attachments to their chatbots took to social media seeing that.

1:27

They were left heartbroken when the company abruptly changed the bots personalities through a software update.

1:33

So it's really interesting the emotional connection to chatbots and to AI that a lot of users are experiencing and I know this can be kind of scary here that's what we were touching on earlier but for me it was really interesting because I think there are positive use cases around this.

1:52

And what came to mind for me? What is the use of AI chatbots for folks that beat isolation?

1:58

I'm thinking of our recent pandemic with COVID and how many folks were isolated and how detrimental to their mental health that was, and so maybe you know chatbots could be used to increase mental health and in those kinds of situations.

2:12

Yeah, I think there's a lot of really interesting use cases around it, but I'd love to hear, tim and Emerson, your thoughts on.

2:17

You know the ethical implications and also, just in general, you know users getting attached to and having emotional connections with AI companions.

2:27

What your thoughts are around that.

2:29

Emerson, you want to kick us off?

2:31

Sure, sure. So my first take on the article, I guess, was right in the title of it.

2:40

I don't think I was surprised to learn that people can form emotional attachments to AI.

2:47

I can think of a small physical talisman that your grandfather gifted down to you that you form an emotional attachment to.

2:58

So I think under the right circumstances, you can form an emotional attachment to anything.

3:07

I'm also more on the well, this is weird train than seeing clearly the potential benefits of this.

3:18

I think the marketing and the direction of it might have to be scrubbed up a little bit if they were truly trying to help people that an AI relationship is their best bet for their mental health.

3:34

I did find it interesting that at least in the article they stated that the tool is designed to build a relationship where you can be without fear of rejection or abandonment, and that kind of reminds me of your typical, maybe toxic, dysfunctional relationship where somebody says, oh, I'll never leave you, I'll never leave you, right.

4:02

So it's kind of this To me.

4:06

It seems like some some more responsibility in how they've marketed this tool so far.

4:13

Interesting. Yeah, this this article immediately reminded me of.

4:18

There's a really great book I recommend everybody who's venturing into this world of AI read, called the new breed, by Kate Darling.

4:28

And uh, it is. She's a expert, brilliant, uh, brilliant thinker on human computer interaction and she talks about these pet dinosaurs that you know I think it was Sony, um created and they were like driven by, you know, cloud computing where they could learn these activities, and you know, the the dinosaur could grow with the kid and, um, well, the sony decided to shutter the toy, like let's go close it down.

4:55

And, yeah, we're getting bombarded by messages from kids.

4:58

You know, don't kill my friend. You know, don't take away my friend.

5:01

But this is the intersection of business and you know, emerson, I agree with you.

5:07

We can create emotional bonds to anything you know, and whether that's like, um, you know, going to get ice cream at this specific place, you know that there's an emotional bond.

5:36

When that place closes, it's impactful to like, hey, this is my chat bot, I talk to every day, and some of the people said in the article it's like their chatbot had been lobotomized and these features that they really, really counted on were just taken away.

5:54

So really challenging on the spectrum of well, you want to create these features.

6:01

You know there's a market demand for it the GPT store.

6:04

You know we saw an explosion in AI girlfriends as GPTs.

6:09

There's a demand.

6:11

But how do you approach this in an ethically responsible way where you aren't killing kids' best friends or making people feel like you know they've been abandoned by their AI?

6:24

You know, bff, it's challenging, tali.

6:31

What are your other thoughts here? We're kind of chatting about this.

6:35

No, I think it's interesting. I'm sure or I like to think, at least the optimist in me that this wasn't intentional, and so I think it's interesting to see this impact.

6:44

Optimist in me that this wasn't intentional, and so I think it's interesting to see this impact.

6:46

You know, maybe even the shock that Replica had, that this was the impact that their users experienced when they took away some functionalities.

6:52

I think it just highlights how thoughtful and careful folks need to be, who are the ones, you know, behind these companies, making sure they're thinking about the ethical implications of any sort of feature, update or release as they move forward, because I think it has more of an impact than you know maybe is realized.

7:11

So, yeah, very interesting.

7:14

Yeah, it's almost like don't forget, you're humans, right, you're right.

7:17

It's a crazy thought.

7:20

Sounds like something we might have said a few times on this show.

7:23

Don't forget, you're humans Crazy thoughts. Sounds like something we might have said a few times on this show. Don't forget your e-commerce so awesome.

7:27

Anything else we want to talk about on this news story, and don't forget everybody who are regular attendees.

7:33

We share all of our news stories as comments on this event, so you can read the news story for yourself.

7:39

Some really great coverage on I think it was ABCc australia.

7:46

Like you had a lot to say. That's really good stuff, uh, so we'll share those links here.

7:49

But anything else from the crowd?

7:51

No, all right, cool, you guys want to talk about flow state?

7:58

Now let's do it.

7:59

I think uh, you know, before we dive into the media, I would love to emerson start with some.

8:03

You know, before we dive into the news here, I would love to Emerson start with some, you know, defining some terms I would love to start with.

8:08

You know, I know we've thrown out the term flow state quite a bit and it's in the title already.

8:14

But before diving in, I'd love for you to take some time to maybe define to the audience here what flow state really is.

8:21

Sure. So flow state is an optimal state of consciousness.

8:26

It's where we feel our best and perform our best.

8:29

There's a lot of colloquial names for it, like being in the zone or runner's high, hyper-focus or wired in.

8:37

If you remember the movie the Social Network about Facebook.

8:40

If you remember the movie the Social Network about Facebook, it's associated with a lot of different activities.

8:47

Typically they're rhythmic and harmonious movement activities.

8:53

So physical activities is usually where we associate it with.

9:08

There's a lot of flow state talk in the sports world, also in the video game world, come to find Very cool and when we were talking about this, we were talking about some qualities that helped you identify where are you in flow state, are you in flow state or not?

9:19

Can you share just the baseline for people like some of those qualities?

9:23

Because, as we were talking about before, it was like oh yeah, I've been there.

9:30

Yeah, yeah for sure. So I think there's like eight main factors of flow and I like to break them down into a couple categories.

9:40

One, the prerequisite factors that you can kind of work to create in yourself or in your teams, and those are having clear goals, having immediate feedback in whatever the activity that you're engaging in, and then this thing that's very important to flow, called the skill challenge balance, where you're basically trying to challenge yourself slightly beyond your skill level so that you're stretching but you're not breaking.

10:08

Then there's the emergent factors of flow.

10:13

That are kind of things that we can't really control consciously, but when we get into flow they emerge and as our action and awareness merging together.

10:27

So basically, presence, being in the present moment, this feeling of time distortion, where time speeds up or slows down based on your perception, and then also a loss of self-consciousness.

10:39

So you know, not filtering yourself, not thinking too much, really, again, being in the moment.

10:48

There's also this quality of enjoyment.

10:51

Right, flow is very enjoyable, and that's the quality I kind of put in the middle of prerequisite and emergent, because you can lead yourself towards enjoyable activities, but then also, when you hit that flow point, they spike in enjoyment, I think.

11:06

Um, and then, finally, a sense of control.

11:09

Typically, we need that in any sort of activity that's going to bring us flow, um, having some confidence in your ability, uh, which goes along with that aspect of having clear goals in in the tasks that you're engaging in.

11:25

Very awesome. So where, when you you you've studied a ton in flow state, where do you see people kind of saying like, oh, that's where I hit flow state, or like some of the activities that you're doing?

11:37

We talked about runners high, you know, as kind of a nickname here what other kinds of activities do we see people really peaking in FlowState?

11:52

Well, I think across the board there's a ton of people on this planet.

11:55

I get the sense that people can get into Flow in almost any sort of activity.

11:58

I've heard that even people sitting down and doing arithmetic will bring them to Flow, which for me is as far from the truth as you could possibly get In my personal experience.

12:11

I'm a mountain biker, I'm a drummer, I'm a juggler.

12:14

So I know a lot of friends physical activity running, walking, hiking, biking, skiing, snowboarding where when I talk about flow, their eyes light up, you know, and they're like, yes, that's that feeling I get when I'm cruising down the mountain on my skis.

12:31

Then there's also, I think again in my personal zone my friends kind of the performance side of it.

12:41

So there's this collective of people called flow artists and those are the jugglers, the fire spinners you know things like that dancers and then musicians.

12:54

You know playing the drums, getting up on stage with people to my favorite type of music to play is improv.

13:00

So you know those people in that circle are also familiar with what the state.

13:06

I think very cool yeah, I know, we were talking about with you with, uh, you know, the pottery and painting yeah, no, I was just gonna say absolutely.

13:17

I mean, I don't know, there's very few forms of art that I've yet to find, that I can't get in.

13:21

I don't know, I just love. For me it's like the active, it almost feels like a play for me, like it's not about the outcome, it's just about the process.

13:28

I also really love yoga because I find myself getting lost in that as well, and yoga is really fun because Emerson's point you can keep pushing yourself to the edge of your ability and then get stronger with different positions.

13:40

So yeah, those two definitely definitely come to mind for me.

13:44

What about you, tim?

13:45

Yeah, yeah, man. So from a as anyone knows me, I'm not like, yeah, let's go exercise.

13:53

Like you know, I should probably be more like that.

13:56

But you know back in the day when I'd be teaching karate, and you know back when I did exercise a lot more funny, it was before I had kids.

14:04

No, no commentary on that.

14:06

But you know the there was often in martial arts.

14:10

You know you're in a flow state. But also now for me it is, um, you know, pastels, charcoal, I like to draw in those, uh, mediums.

14:19

But also, I would say, my writing.

14:22

When I'm doing fiction writing, it is very I can slip right into it.

14:26

I can uh see that and then uh, coding, like with software development, like there are times when you're just on a tear and you're going and, man, it's like, oh crap, I need to eat lunch.

14:39

I need to like, oh, it's dinner time, or oh, hey, the kids are home from school now, like I just thought I started.

14:56

When I think about software development specifically, I feel like that's areas where that I've flipped into a flow state the most often.

15:00

So I would say, for me, that's, that's, that's, that's that. And I think when we talk about AI assistance, we'll get further into that.

15:06

But before we go into the world of AI Emerson, why don't you talk a little bit about human-centered design?

15:17

Because I think that will help us connect some more dots about how this whole flow and human-centered design and AI all fit together.

15:22

Can you take us through that?

15:25

Yeah, sure. So human-centered design is an approach to problem solving.

15:31

It's used in all kinds of different frameworks engineering, management and it focuses on bringing the human perspective into all steps of the problem solving process, and so I think what that results in often are brainstorming workshops, design workshops, where you have a really diverse and representative group of individuals in the same room that might not know each other, they might not have the same technical proficiency regarding the problem that they're trying to solve, and so one of those emergent factors of flow is this loss of self-consciousness where your ideas flow out.

16:13

It's important to mention also that your creativity has been shown to spike massively when you're in flow.

16:21

So when we're trying to solve these really hard problems and we're trying to innovate and come up with new unforeseen solutions, being in flow can help people not stay within their box, think outside of the box, throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, which, of course, is a really great quality in somebody engaging in the divergent phase of human-centered design, where we're thinking outward and then later converging together to actually implement something or test something.

16:58

Very cool. So how does AI fit in all this?

17:02

So we got all those different thinking models and flow state and we're losing time and all this good stuff.

17:09

How does AI help? Or how have you seen AI help with you as you are trying to enter into or navigate into a flow state?

17:20

Well, I think the first thing that comes to mind has to do with employee engagement kind of the world that you guys have talked to me about, getting employees working with AI and feeling okay about it.

17:34

I think what I see there is, I kind of think, as a system we're kind of designed to move towards flow subconsciously.

17:49

I think that's why actually we procrastinate on things is because, when we look at it, yes, we might be completely stressed out by the thing at which point you need to lower the challenge and break it into manageable pieces, but also, a lot of the times, we're just bored by something, and that's why we procrastinate to amplify the challenge so that when we actually go to sit down and do it, we're actually in flow.

18:14

So I think of flow as this thing that we all are just naturally wanting to move towards at different levels.

18:21

And so, if you think about the employee experience maybe somebody that's been in accounting for 40 years or something, 40 years or something Now, all of a sudden, you have this extremely powerful tool that a lot of people are telling you is going to completely change the way you work.

18:39

It might even take your job from you completely, and that represents to me a massive increase in the challenge.

18:45

So in the challenge of just thinking about your job, in thinking about your career trajectory, there's this massive unknown that raises the challenge.

18:56

So I like to approach that by thinking of ways to lower that challenge again or make the thing enjoyable or interesting, instill some curiosity and exploration and things to lower that challenge down, to bring people back in flow where they can kind of truly experience what AI might actually do for their job, their role.

19:23

That's one kind of angle, I think, but I think there's probably a few more, but let's start there.

19:30

I love that because I know for me the activities I think of, where I get in flow.

19:35

It's fun, it's playful to your point with a challenge, but it's still fun and enjoyable.

19:40

And I think if there's ways that we feel more comfortable or folks feel willing to play with AI without a massive risk, doing so appropriately, I think that hopefully builds folks' technical confidence with experimenting with AI without a massive risk, you know doing so appropriately.

19:51

I think that that hopefully, you know, builds folks technical confidence with experimenting with AI and Emerson.

19:58

I know you. You mentioned a while back that there was an example of like maybe even using AI in like a Mad Lib format, and I thought that was a really fun example, if you want to share with the audience of of you know just how to use AI.

20:12

You know there's so many different ways to use AI in a playful way.

20:15

You know that's maybe less intimidating, but that was a great example.

20:19

Yeah, sure. So I was trying to find a way to experiment with the notion of a custom GPT with your ChatGPT Plus subscription, where you can kind of preset it with instructions, instructions you can upload documents for it, to refer to things like that.

20:36

And so I just wrote out sort of a workflow instruction diagram.

20:42

Um, that kind of walked through how the gpt should interact with a facilitator, somebody that's facilitating a design workshop or really just needs a warm-up exercise to kind of get people into flow, having fun opening up.

21:00

And so I designed this to walk people through and ask them for a category or a topic, and then it gives a three-question multiple-choice quiz or not a quiz, more like a poll that the facilitator then administers to their participants, and that quiz breaks down aspects of an image prompt for ChatGPT.

21:26

So the first question asked about what should the main subject of the image be?

21:31

And then the second question asked, sorry, what's a verb or an adjective that should be involved in the prompt?

21:37

And then the third was just a completely random aspect to.

21:40

You know, really kind of try to make it fun, make the results unexpected, and then it would give you the prompt and you could have a moment to alter it or change it or just say, yep, go ahead.

21:51

And then it just generates this image that the group kind of collaboratively engaged on creating the prompt.

21:59

So I've been using that in a twofold way, kind of, like I said, to get people into that flow state and also just as an exposure point to a custom GPT and ChatGPT in general.

22:15

Maybe Maybe it's their first time. So I'll kind of wrap up that warm-up by pointing out maybe things in the image that it overemphasized or completely left out, things like that, just kind of highlighting the limitations and also maybe the strengths of ChatGPT as it is today.

22:35

Yeah, that's interesting.

22:37

So the one thing that I was thinking about as you were sharing this and processing for myself, like, how am I using these tools?

22:48

And I find that even when I'm using tools like github, copilot, to code, you know where it's a coding assistant, um, and there is a lot of emphasis on it.

22:58

You know it keeps you focused, it keeps you moving, but but again, it's actually breaks my flow.

23:04

Uh, is really what I feel like as of today.

23:07

So, uh, because it's new and it's a, it's a oh yeah, that's right, I have this tool.

23:12

I should go use it, like, and I have to like context switch in my brain, like you know, from just crank out the code.

23:19

You know, go, go, go to, ok, well, we go ask this tool and get some response.

23:26

But where I found that it has been very helpful for flow is when I go and pre-prepare pre-prepare is that the right word, you know like, go and get all my resources together and um.

23:39

So I'm thinking about specifically like a um art project I was doing with photoshop, where I was using tools like mid journey and adobe, firefly to prepare assets and then brought it all together in the creative activity.

23:54

Similarly, with code, like where it's not that I'm asking questions while I'm coding, but I've done some research and I've prepped some items in.

24:04

You know, whether it's Bing chat or chat GBT, or you know our internal mind over machines tool.

24:10

Katie, you know I've, I've prepared, and then I go into the activity and start rolling with it.

24:16

As you hear this, being kind of the flow guru here like what?

24:22

What's your reaction to? You know, breaking because it's new, versus preparing and going from there.

24:32

Yeah, I think to me what you're getting at is this quality of it being such a new tool.

24:39

I think it's a good example of a product that was developed in a tech-centered approach.

24:47

So internally I imagine they're all super excited about the underlying technology that powers this thing, excited about the underlying technology that powers this thing, and they think that that will be enough to really get people into flow and to massively adopt it on a wide scale.

25:03

I think if you were to take a human-centered approach and I'm specifically talking about ChatGPT because that's the tool I have the most experience with A human-centered approach to the design of that interface and that user experience I think could pull from the qualities of flow, for instance.

25:27

So on ChatGPT at least you don't have a whole lot of control as to what the tone of the response is or how long it is or any of those things, unless you already know that you have to explicitly state it in your text prompt.

25:45

But to give users more control over that, which is a control and user freedom is one of the core tenets of usability heuristics.

25:58

That control and freedom to me relates to the aspect of flow state, where you have clear goals and you have this level of confidence in your ability to accomplish those goals, even if it's slightly above your skill level.

26:13

Slightly above your skill level. So it kind of presents you with this very ambiguous experience that, like you said, I think can pull you out of flow.

26:21

I hope that answers your question, tim.

26:24

No, it does. And it raises actually a question, tally, you know, as we talk about like tools like Jasper, where you can set some of those controls in place, you know what's the tone, what's the, you know output range, stuff like that.

26:40

You know, tali, you know and I know you're a big Jasper, you know fan, big Jasper user you know how are you using Jasper as your kind of inflow state and as you're going from there, do you pre-useuse it?

26:54

Do you use it during the activity?

26:56

just curious well, it's funny because I think chat gpt you know, using that or like a chat bing, you know, it's so much more.

27:04

It to me like that's like a blank canvas and that can be a little intimidating from a flow state because you really to your point to him.

27:10

You have to prompt, engineer well, and so there is a level of kind of maybe some skill base that's needed in order to get some of the outputs.

27:20

Maybe you're looking for Jasper I found myself kind of delving into and maybe all of a sudden I looked down and two hours had passed and I played around with them there, and so maybe that's how I'm defining flow state.

27:31

But it's the playfulness of it because the user interface, this tool, allows you to select different templates.

27:38

So maybe I'll use it for writing certain marketing material or product content, but there's all these different formats that you can do that in, and then the user interface allows you or guides you to generating a prompt that maybe in ChatGPT you would have to have that prior knowledge and research beforehand.

28:01

With Jasper you could really experiment on the fly so you can say different types of tones, whereas maybe in ChatGPT I wouldn't even think to put the tone of the response to Emerson's point, Am I looking for a certain tone, Whereas Jasper has these dropdown downs built into the user interface?

28:20

That, I think, makes it more easier to kind of play, experiment and get the outcome you're looking for.

28:28

And that challenge is there and you could see, you know, when you use certain templates or certain prompts, that you get outputs that are more what you're looking for.

28:38

So you can kind of build up your skill. But I think it happens faster and it's more visually um.

28:44

You know you get the feedback kind of automatically with that.

28:47

So I really like the, the user interface um of Jasper in that it really kind of guides the users to um be better prompt engineers essentially, uh, which is really really helpful.

28:59

So that's yeah, that's what I was thinking of when you guys were chatting about that.

29:04

Yeah, so, side note, we we don't sell Jasper Like we're just, we're just fans, um, so you know, just to kind of disclaimer on that, um, but uh, you know one, and Talia, as you were going through that, one thing that came to my mind, emerson, is from a flow state perspective.

29:22

The examples that a lot of us were talking about are individualized things like discovering flow state individually.

29:29

Is there a best practice for groups finding flow state together?

29:38

So, for instance and I'm looking at our attendee list and one of the attendees kind of sparked this question Do we know how people think and how they process information?

29:51

Does that have any impact on if you get similar people together, they get to flow better, faster, easier, or is it no, if you have a diverse thinking group, you get to flow state better, faster?

30:03

Just curious, from your perspective, what's the right mix or a group to get, or collaboration to get to flow state?

30:12

That's a really great question, something I've been trying to think a lot about.

30:16

Uh, I think, as far as you know the specifics of people's learning styles or personality styles, um, I don't think I could speak specifically to.

30:26

You know, here's one paradigm that works for this type of group and and another.

30:30

It's really something I've been experimenting with and trying to figure out just through my practice.

30:36

I think, though, that, well, just in general, I think that there's a contagious aspect to Flow.

30:45

It has been shown that it's more enjoyable when it's experienced in the company of other people experienced in the company of other people, but I think, providing a few different activities for people to get into flow that are kind of from these different categories.

31:08

So, maybe you have a workshop with 100 people, maybe you have a meditation facilitator come in, you have a rhythmic movement type activity, and then something that's more engaging to the mind and your curiosity, or something like that, and you would offer people.

31:29

All right, we're going to spend the next 15 minutes doing a warm-up Pick which one you want to go to, and then we'll regroup minutes doing a warm-up pick which one you want to go to, and then, and then we'll regroup.

31:39

Um, I have been one of the earlier facilitation methods. I was experimenting with um, where I I did have this sense that it had a, it was very accessible and that kind of no matter who you were at least in my experience when I played this game with people they would we would get into this.

31:55

You know, synchronized group flow together.

31:58

Um, I call it the two ball pass.

32:00

Essentially, you take two balls with a partner and you stand two, five, ten feet apart, you know, depending on where you want that challenge level to be, and you put some music on in the background.

32:13

I mentioned that there's often a rhythmic, harmonious aspect to flow activities.

32:19

So music seems to be something that, no matter who you are, you can find a rhythm to some degree.

32:27

You're passing these balls back and forth in the rhythm.

32:30

If you drop them, the idea is to just flow with it and get it back into play without making a huge stink or without stopping or anything like that.

32:42

So for a while I thought, yeah, this is it. This is something that most people can do.

32:47

But as I brought it more into the professional world and wasn't just testing it with my friends, I learned that, all right, man, some people aren't as coordinated or there's a number of factors that might prevent somebody from being able to engage in that activity in a way that's going to get them to flow.

33:07

So that's where I'm at now kind of trying to provide a few different flow activities for people to choose from Gotcha.

33:17

And then I'll also say there's an aspect, I think, of just flow education and telling people, hey, there's a lot of different ways you can get to this state, but it's beneficial to you, to our team, to our mission.

33:33

So encouraging people to go out on their own and engage with those activities, and that goes along with the whole work-life balance conversation, I think.

33:47

Very cool.

33:49

Yeah, it's really interesting and honestly, on that note to your point, I don't know.

33:54

I have some hypotheses but I don't know necessarily about different types of personalities.

33:58

That would work well, but I would imagine or at least, yeah, I would imagine that in order to get a good slow state or be in that zone of play, there needs to be a sense of safety, and so I wonder if roles in a brainstorming session make a difference.

34:15

In a brainstorming session make a difference. So, like, if you have somebody from a senior leadership team who maybe is going to shoot down certain ideas, people will be less likely to you know, um, brainstorm or collaborate in that space.

34:22

So maybe I'd be curious how, um, yeah, different roles or certain types of personalities might um, contribute to a loss of flow state.

34:33

In that sense, that would be kind of interesting.

34:36

Again, I don't know how much data there is on that, it's just kind of what.

34:39

What comes to mind for me and I know tam one of the exercises we we've used in the past is lego, serious play, and I think that's a great example of again, just trying to get people out of a certain mindset and get into more of a playful, different kind of um way of thinking.

34:55

I definitely see that aspect of safety being important, I think in professional environments.

35:03

But then the image that immediately popped into my mind is like a gazelle running from a tiger on the savannah or something.

35:13

I can almost look at mammals and see a sense of flow in them as well.

35:20

So I don't know, if you know, I think a complete lack of safety or a total threat could actually be that raised challenge that that individual needs in that moment to get to a flow.

35:34

But yeah, I think in a professional setting it's probably not as applicable.

35:41

Well, as we think about AI's perception by workforce and managers of is this going to take my job?

35:48

And this is where, a lot of times, we hear managers dismiss the idea of AI taking their job, and it's kind of times, you know, we hear managers dismiss the idea of AI taking their job and it's kind of like, well, don't be so comfortable in that, you know, because a lot of management tasks, there is a component where AI and reasoning-based AI systems, decision-based AI systems, can significantly perform some of these tasks.

36:17

Now, do we want AI to perform these tasks?

36:19

That's a different question. So I was kind of in the same boat with Talia Maybe it's just from our discussions of using AI to get into a flow state would require a level of comfort and safety by the person to say no, this is not a threat to me, I've got this.

36:40

But now I'm kind of scratching my head of like, oh, and looking back at some past experiences where we have worked with team members who did feel threatened by the AI system and never really saw what value they were bringing to their work until the AI system showed up and then, all of a sudden, they could articulate well, here's the value I bring on top of this, which then created a much better experience for themselves.

37:09

Now, I'm not saying that we should terrify people into self-actualization that's not where I'm going here but what I am saying is this is interesting and challenging some of my held thoughts of like no safety is where you'll get the best flow, so interesting.

37:31

Very cool and I guess, on that note, I know there is a perception of AI taking over jobs and I think there are certain tasks that AI is great for and certain tasks that aren't.

37:44

They're never going to fully replace who we are as humans ideally curious.

37:52

Emerson, what are some of your thoughts on how you used AI in a way that's been maybe advantageous to you professionally?

38:01

That could increase the employee experience rather than maybe replace some of the key humanistic values?

38:09

Well, one example, my latest example, maybe less than an hour ago, tim mentioned a book the New Breed that I hadn't heard of.

38:20

So I went to chat GPT and I said summarize this book for me real quick.

38:23

And as we were talking I just read a few bullets on what that book was about.

38:27

And I think in that sense Tim mentions a book I've never heard.

38:33

My challenge goes up a little bit. I go to chat GPT, I quickly learn a little bit about it, my skill rises to meet that challenge and I continue on in that flow state.

38:43

So that's an example that literally just happened.

38:47

Love that.

38:50

Excellent, yeah.

38:53

So with that, I would also say we talked earlier about AI disrupting flow state.

38:59

You know, is there, from a best practice perspective, emerson, like how do you see extrapolate out in the future?

39:08

You know, where do you think that we're going to be going with AI and productivity tools to help us get into flow state better, faster, easier?

39:16

Do you see this as like, is it a technology challenge or is it a humans learning how to interact with these tools challenge?

39:26

It's not black or white, it's going to be a hybrid of both.

39:29

What are your thoughts?

39:31

Yeah, I was going to say, well, it's probably both.

39:34

But something that I've been imagining lately is take any of these productivity apps where you're entering some kind of data, whether it's a daily journal on your routine that you're trying to follow or goals that you're trying to hit.

39:53

Trying to follow or goals that you're trying to hit um, I I imagine a system where an ai could take that input and then refer it against uh, you know, a database of scientific information on flow state, um, something that's kind of designed to, you know, be a check and balance for what you're inputting into the system, and then it it could customize actions or activities that you specifically could do, given what you've told it, to manage your flow a little bit.

40:25

But I think there's a ton of possibilities that I haven't thought of yet.

40:30

So I'm excited to see the future of that intersection, for me like the wellness productivity sort of tech space mixed with AI.

40:44

Yeah, very cool. Well, tali, I think we're at time for wins.

40:49

What do you think?

40:52

Let's do it. Yeah, let's delve in.

40:55

Right, emerson, do you want to kick us off? What's your win this week?

41:00

Sure, yeah, I'll share a win. I recently joined an affiliate marketing program for a product called Brainfm, and Brainfm is designed to.

41:13

It delivers scientifically-backed music for flow, for focus, and it just so happens it turns out to be very similar to the type of music that I've been listening to for over a decade.

41:27

That I just felt was good for my flow, so I'm very excited about that that's awesome.

41:34

Is it like death metal, very like high-pitched frequencies?

41:41

Yes, no, that's awesome.

41:44

I've I've heard of brain fm. I've heard you know other people talking about it, um, but I haven't checked it out so I will.

41:50

I'll check that out. It's interesting, um.

41:52

You know, my brother and I talk a lot about music.

41:55

In you know writing. He is uh talking about somebody who gets in flow state with arithmetic.

42:00

That's him, um, and you know so music is a very big component of that for us, um, so he's big into, uh, lo-fi, so for, for getting into that flow state, so interesting yeah, that's pretty much the genre that it sticks around is that lo-fi takes out the distraction of overly complicated melodies and rhythms and vocals and all that stuff.

42:28

Very cool, very cool, tali.

42:30

What do you got for a win? Very cool. I gotta add that to my playlist.

42:34

Yeah, so mine is AI related.

42:37

When I was looking at news articles, this one popped up and I just thought it was a really interesting, um, positive ai news so, um, essentially it's a article about how ai predicts alzheimer's seven years earlier on average, um, and so, basically, researchers have developed an ai method that can predict Alzheimer's disease, utilizing machine learning to analyze patient records, and this case, their study highlights high cholesterol and osteoporosis, you know, especially in women, as key predictors, showcasing AI's potential to unveil complex disease patterns, which is really interesting.

43:13

So, again, if there's ways that we can look at patterns and problem solve, to you know, hopefully get treatment to folks faster interesting.

43:18

So, again, if there's ways that we can, um, we'll get patterns and problem solve, uh, to you know, hopefully um, get treatment to folks faster.

43:22

Uh, I think that's really, I don't know, really exciting to me.

43:25

So that was a really interesting article very cool, very cool, uh, that you know I, I think the ultra is.

43:35

It's interesting for me because alzheimer's seems to be a target with AI.

43:38

There's a lot of research going on around Alzheimer's with AI, so I'm very curious to see how this goes forward.

43:48

Nothing interesting For my win.

43:52

It's not AI related at all. It is actually painting related.

43:56

It's not AI related at all.

43:58

It is actually painting related. I got a bottle of black 4.0 from Culturing, which is the blackest black.

44:04

It absorbs like 99.9998% of light and you got to check this out, like, if you haven't seen this, like you, you paint something with this and it totally does not reflect light.

44:19

So you can paint um a 3d object and it will look 2d when you look at it because there is no light around it.

44:28

And so, um, I've been uh experimenting with uh 3d objects coming out of canvases and you know you, using this paint, it looks flat.

44:37

It's just fascinating to me, uh, and this is a great example of like material sciences, which I guess does connect into ai, as you do more and more of it.

44:46

But, um, check it out, uh, black 4.0, uh, paint from culture hustle, um, again, I don't sell cultural disclaimer, um, but it is amazing to see what people are doing with this stuff.

45:03

So not not exactly AI related, but sounds definitely related to your personal flow, your creative flow.

45:09

Yes, and this is where you know.

45:12

So my daughter also an artist that you know, her and I working on projects together, um, and it's, it's pretty cool stuff, um, uh, but you do have to keep like these are the nice paints and these are the paints that just anyone can use whenever.

45:28

And this, this splatter paint paint.

45:30

This is not, you know, my son, you know, who is a big finger painting fan.

45:34

You, this is not for finger painting.

45:37

So it's good stuff.

45:39

All right, we put it on the top shelf.

45:43

So, emerson, thank you for joining us today on the Boring AI Show.

45:48

This has been really awesome. If people want to find you and follow up, where can they find you?

45:53

Well, it looks like you're probably directly linked to my LinkedIn account or you can go to my website, emersoncsmithcom.

45:59

Awesome, thanks for having me, tim and Tally.

46:03

Yeah, thank you for being with us today, tally. Thank you, as always, of course, this is a great show, all right, and we will catch up with everybody.

46:10

Links, comments, all that good stuff, they'll be posted.

46:14

Tally always wraps that up for us here.

46:16

And that good stuff, they'll be posted.

46:21

Tali always wraps that up for us here. And then in two weeks, tali, what are we planning for two weeks from now?

46:23

Two weeks from now, we will have our very own Justin on one of our very own mind of machines.

46:29

Folks, we'll be talking about AI and a citizen developer.

46:34

Very cool. All right, we'll see everybody then.

46:37

Thanks for joining us today.