0:00

to Episode 489 of The

0:02

Brainy Business, Understanding the Psychology

0:04

of Why People Buy. In

0:06

today's episode, I'm excited to introduce

0:08

you to Dr. Rosalind Chow.

0:11

Ready? Let's get started. You

0:17

are listening to The Brainy Business

0:19

Podcast, where we dig into

0:21

the psychology of why people buy

0:23

and help you incorporate behavioral

0:25

economics into your business, making it

0:27

more brain -friendly. Now here's

0:29

your host, Melina Palmer. Hello,

0:33

hello, everyone. My name is Melina Palmer, and

0:35

I want to welcome you to the

0:37

Brainy Business Podcast. What doors have

0:39

been opened for you throughout your

0:41

life and career? How did

0:44

those doors shape the experience you

0:46

have today? And how often have you

0:48

opened doors for others? That could

0:50

be leaving the door open once you've

0:52

walked through, but it's also that

0:54

intentional experience of using whatever influence you

0:56

have to open a door for

0:58

someone else. It may feel like you

1:00

can only do that once you've

1:03

risen high enough in your organization, like

1:05

you need more power and status

1:07

to help others. But that isn't

1:09

the case. There are always doors

1:11

you can open. And the great

1:13

news is they can help you

1:15

along the way as well. I'm

1:18

excited to talk more about this

1:20

in today's conversation with Rosalind Chow.

1:22

Rosalind is an associate professor of

1:24

organizational behavior and theory at Carnegie

1:26

Mellon University, where she studies the

1:28

power of social hierarchy and its

1:30

impact on diversity and inclusion efforts

1:32

within organizations. Her new

1:35

book, The Doors You Can Open,

1:37

distinguishes the concept of sponsorship from

1:39

mentorship. a concept I absolutely love

1:41

and am so excited to share with you

1:43

today. We also talk about the difference

1:45

between power and status, proper ways to think

1:47

about networking and more. It's such a

1:49

great discussion. I can't wait to jump right

1:51

in. Last thing before we get into

1:53

the conversation, I want to be sure you

1:55

know that there are links in the

1:57

show notes for my top related past episodes

1:59

and books, ways to get in

2:01

touch with Rosalind and myself

2:03

and more. It's all within the

2:05

app you're listening to and at

2:07

thebrainybusiness.com slash 489. Now

2:11

let's jump right in. Dr. Rosalind

2:13

Chow, welcome to the Brainy Business

2:15

Podcast. Thanks for having

2:17

me. Absolutely. I'm so excited

2:19

to be chatting with you today. Loved

2:21

your book. It has such great insights

2:24

in it. We'll, of course, dive

2:26

into that in a moment here. But

2:28

for everyone who doesn't yet know you, can

2:30

you share a little bit about yourself

2:32

and the work that you do? Sure.

2:35

So I am an

2:37

associate professor of

2:39

organizational behavior and theory

2:41

at Carnegie Mellon

2:43

University. I study topics

2:45

related to power and

2:47

status, social hierarchies,

2:50

normally within the context

2:52

of different social inequalities

2:54

like racial differences

2:56

or gender differences. And

2:58

I got tired of

3:00

publishing papers. about

3:02

those topics and wanted

3:04

to focus more on things

3:07

we could do to

3:09

reduce the inequalities that we see

3:11

around us. And that led me

3:13

to my interest in sponsorship.

3:15

And that's what the book is about. Oh,

3:18

great. Well, I'm intrigued by the, like

3:20

you said, you got tired of writing papers

3:22

on it and so decided to make

3:24

a shift. Can you share a little bit

3:26

more about what you mean by kind

3:28

of that experience? Sure.

3:31

So, A lot of my

3:33

earlier papers are about,

3:35

you could say in a

3:37

way, like the inevitability

3:39

of social inequality and

3:42

social hierarchy, because it's

3:44

one of the

3:46

most natural ways of

3:48

organizing social behavior. And

3:50

so for a lot of

3:52

us, it actually is

3:54

helpful to know who's in charge,

3:57

who's not in charge, who

3:59

we should pay attention to. all

4:01

of those things. The problem

4:03

is that oftentimes the

4:06

cues that we're using to

4:08

make those decisions are

4:10

aligned with other characteristics that

4:12

actually should have no bearing

4:14

on our decision on who should be

4:16

in charge and who should be following. So

4:21

I've published a lot

4:23

on those sorts of dynamics

4:25

around who tends to rise

4:27

to the top in

4:29

groups. different social

4:31

groups and how they try

4:33

to maintain their positions

4:35

within social hierarchies. But

4:37

again, all of that

4:40

is really about the

4:42

persistence and the maintenance

4:44

of unequal social systems.

4:46

And really not

4:48

much is out there on how

4:50

you can actively dismantle those

4:52

unequal systems. So that was the

4:54

impetus for wanting to move

4:57

in a slightly different direction. Right,

5:00

right. And a very valuable

5:02

one. And like, instead of just

5:04

talking about what's wrong, like,

5:06

let's step back a

5:08

little bit and see what we can

5:10

do to change. So just for those who

5:12

aren't as familiar with the field and

5:14

the research that does exist there, can you

5:17

share where you said there are some,

5:19

you know, who does tend

5:21

to kind of rise into some

5:23

of these powerful positions and

5:25

where you said it's for maybe.

5:27

peripheral reasons or things that aren't

5:29

as important? Like what are some of

5:31

those qualities or things that come into

5:34

play that tends, you know, as, know,

5:36

human nature that certain people that we kind

5:38

of sort in this way? Sure.

5:41

You know, I think the most

5:43

obvious one is to point

5:45

to is physical cues. So

5:47

often the person who talks most

5:49

in a group is the

5:52

one who tends to emerge as

5:54

the informal leader and are

5:56

chosen by others. to be leaders.

5:58

And that's because we have this

6:00

unspoken association between

6:03

confidence and competence.

6:06

But in reality, that

6:08

relationship is not

6:10

very strong. And

6:13

so, it's a

6:15

problem of relying

6:17

on these proxies

6:19

for these underlying qualities

6:21

that are harder.

6:23

to evaluate because we're

6:25

just cognitively lazy creatures.

6:29

Definitely. Well, and I, I have

6:31

a whole episode on the

6:33

Dunning -Kruger effect as far as

6:35

the confidence competence problem kind of

6:37

goes into, into play there

6:40

for sure. So yeah. So then.

6:43

As your work has kind of evolved here, and

6:45

like you said, you went into sponsorship. Can you

6:47

share a little bit? I, of course, know from

6:49

reading the book what you're talking about, but can

6:51

you share for people kind of what that means

6:53

and why it matters? Sure. I

6:55

mean, I think the first thing I want to

6:58

mention is that a lot of people don't

7:00

know what it means, or if they do,

7:02

they have a different association with

7:04

it than I intend. So a

7:06

lot of people know about sponsorship

7:08

in the context of, say, sports

7:10

sponsorships. or immigration sponsorship

7:13

right like so for you

7:15

to have um have

7:17

a successful application to emigrate

7:19

somewhere typically you need

7:21

um a person in that

7:23

home country to to be

7:25

willing to sponsor you you

7:27

also have sponsorship in that

7:30

context of like work

7:32

visas um so there's and

7:34

there's also the sponsorship idea from

7:36

you know alcoholics anonymous which

7:38

is not how we're thinking about

7:40

sponsorship here at all. So

7:44

sponsorship in the way that

7:46

I think about it is it's

7:48

a form of typically professional

7:50

support, but really just any

7:52

kind of social support could

7:54

fall into the category of

7:56

sponsorship. But it's any support

7:58

that you give to someone where

8:00

instead of trying to

8:03

change the person that

8:05

you're trying to help, you're not trying

8:07

to change who they are. you're

8:09

trying to change the social

8:11

environment around them. And

8:13

so a type of or

8:15

a form of sponsorship

8:18

that a lot of people

8:20

are very familiar with

8:22

are like letters of recommendation

8:24

or referrals where somebody's

8:26

writing on your behalf, saying

8:29

nice things about you, encouraging

8:31

other people to treat you

8:33

a particular way. That

8:37

would be sponsorship and not

8:39

to be confused with mentorship

8:41

where the person, the mentor

8:43

is actually trying to change

8:45

the mentee, right? So this

8:47

is where like the teacher who's writing

8:49

you a letter of recommendation is

8:51

actually telling the student, hey,

8:54

you need to do more of X, Y,

8:56

and Z. So that

8:58

would be mentorship, but them writing

9:00

the letter of recommendation to the

9:02

college and saying, hey. this

9:04

student is great for

9:06

ABC reasons, that would be

9:08

sponsorship. Definitely.

9:10

And it's, I was, of course,

9:12

going to ask about the

9:14

mentorship connection. So glad that you

9:16

brought that up here. And

9:19

I think that's something that people

9:21

maybe think about a little bit

9:23

more formally, right? As far

9:25

as a lot of companies have

9:27

their sort of required, you know, whether

9:29

they're as well. planned out or not,

9:31

you know, but like a mentorship program

9:33

inside of an organization is more common

9:35

than a sponsorship type of a program.

9:37

Though I do believe, you know, you

9:39

talked about in the book that there

9:41

are at least some companies that are

9:43

trying to bring that together. And

9:46

so, you know, good to kind of see

9:48

and think about the differences here. I

9:50

think... reason that you started with

9:52

it early in the book, but

9:54

the example with Derek Jeter is

9:57

a really good example of kind of what this

9:59

can look like. Can you share a little bit about that story? Sure.

10:01

So this is, well, I

10:03

guess it's a story of Derek

10:05

Jeter. It's also the

10:07

story of Ang. It's a story

10:10

of a thing that he

10:12

did one time that was really

10:14

helpful. So,

10:16

fair enough. Yes. So,

10:18

Kim Ang, starting with

10:20

Kim Ang, she was

10:22

the general manager for

10:25

the Marlins. And she

10:27

is possibly more famous

10:29

or most famous for

10:31

being the first female.

10:34

GM in Major League

10:36

Baseball, and actually in

10:38

all four major American

10:40

sport leagues. And the

10:42

question has always been,

10:44

why did it take

10:46

her so long? Because

10:48

she was probably ready

10:50

to be a GM

10:52

like 10 years before

10:54

she actually was selected

10:56

to be one. It

11:00

wasn't until Derek Jeter actually

11:02

became a co -owner of the

11:04

Marlins. And he had

11:06

worked with Kim Ang when

11:08

they were together at the

11:10

Yankees. And he basically vouched

11:12

for her to the other

11:15

people in the club. And

11:17

she was finally able to

11:19

get her dream job of

11:21

being a general manager. I

11:24

like starting off with that story

11:26

because I think it makes it

11:28

so clear. how what

11:30

Derek Jeter did was sponsorship

11:32

and not mentorship. So if

11:34

he had been mentoring Kim

11:36

Ang, that would have taken

11:38

the form of talking to

11:41

her and saying, hey, when

11:43

you interview, these are the

11:45

qualifications you want to play

11:47

up. Or this is something

11:49

that the team is really

11:51

concerned about. So as you prepare,

11:54

make sure you have an

11:56

answer for these types of questions.

11:58

Right. So really trying

12:01

to make change something

12:03

about Kim Ang. So

12:05

that would have counted his

12:07

mentorship, but that's actually not what

12:09

he did at all. He

12:11

didn't. He didn't give her any

12:13

coaching for that interview. He

12:15

was already very well acquainted with

12:18

her qualifications. He knew she

12:20

was going to do well on

12:22

her own. The main thing

12:24

was just making sure that she

12:26

would say yes to the

12:28

opportunity of interviewing for the position.

12:30

And then I'm sure once

12:32

they finished that process, he probably

12:35

advocated very strongly for them

12:37

to hire her. Right.

12:39

And like you said, potentially it's, you

12:41

know, I believe it was so he reached

12:43

out to her and said, hey, if

12:45

I put your name up, would you be

12:47

open to this sort of, you know,

12:49

trying for it, of which I'm sure it's

12:51

like, yes, please. I've been

12:54

trying to get this job for a

12:56

long time. was funny about that,

12:58

though? And I think this is actually

13:00

a really interesting thing that I

13:02

don't talk about as much in the

13:04

book, because the book is more

13:06

for people who are going to be

13:08

sponsors. But there's this

13:10

interesting interplay between being

13:12

sponsored as well. And so

13:14

if you look into

13:16

the interviews that Kim Ang

13:18

did at that time,

13:20

she talks about how nervous

13:23

she is to be

13:25

interviewing for the Marlins because

13:27

it's Derek Jeter. And

13:29

there's right. I mean, basically

13:31

she's putting herself in

13:33

a situation where she might.

13:36

get denied or rejected and then

13:38

has implications for her relationship

13:40

with this person that I imagine

13:43

she feels fairly close with

13:45

and trusts and that would be

13:47

that would be a hard

13:49

thing to have happen in a

13:51

relationship right yeah um so

13:54

you have to feel you have

13:56

to feel pretty certain certain

13:58

I guess as a protege if

14:00

you're gonna say yes to

14:02

these types of opportunities because obviously

14:05

it's an opportunity to shine,

14:07

but it also is a potentially

14:09

an opportunity where things might

14:11

not go very well. And so,

14:13

and it's going to look

14:16

bad for you. It's going to

14:18

look bad for your sponsor

14:20

and it's going to damage your

14:22

relationship with them. Right. Right.

14:24

And so I think that, I

14:27

mean, takes us nicely into

14:29

the, you know, question of, you

14:31

know, if someone was going

14:33

to choose to be a sponsor,

14:35

you know, where's, there's risk

14:38

in that. Right. And in the

14:40

way that, I mean, being

14:42

a mentor. which is so

14:44

important. I am a big advocate

14:46

of mentorship as I'm sure you

14:48

are as well. Right. And with

14:50

this, it's people need mentors and

14:52

they also need sponsors and knowing

14:55

that like, but as a mentor,

14:57

I can be giving you advice.

14:59

You, you do what you're going

15:01

to do with it. And it's

15:03

kind of, there's a wall that

15:05

you can kind of put up

15:07

between that. Whereas a sponsor is

15:09

like, I'm putting my name, my

15:11

reputation. on the line,

15:13

right? That's in the same way

15:16

of like, not a professional

15:18

reference for everyone sort of a

15:20

deal. And even being a

15:22

reference where someone can call me

15:24

is different than I'm going

15:26

out of my way, actively, proactively

15:28

paving a way for someone

15:30

else and doing what I can

15:32

to make that happen. You

15:34

know, it could feel like there's a lot

15:37

of, you know, risk in that. It could

15:39

be scary for some people. What

15:42

thoughts do you have on that as far as

15:44

advice too of like why it's worth it, even if

15:46

it does feel a little scary? Well,

15:49

so this is, I mean, so

15:51

thank you for talking through that

15:53

because I think that's actually a

15:55

really important part of what I

15:57

want people to take away from

15:59

the book, which is a lot

16:01

of times people think of sponsorship

16:04

as this like, yes, no category

16:06

of behavior. Am I going to

16:08

sponsor someone or not? And

16:10

I think what you're pointing

16:12

to is actually that sponsorship

16:14

is a continuum of different

16:16

types of behavior. So yes,

16:18

maybe I'm willing to act

16:20

as a referral for someone,

16:22

but how far I'm willing

16:24

to go, that changes the

16:26

amount of personal risk that

16:28

I'm taking on. So you

16:30

can always sponsor if you

16:32

want. It's just that how

16:34

you choose to do it

16:36

will... like strengthen the association

16:38

that people have in their

16:41

minds between you and the

16:43

person you're sponsoring. So if

16:45

you want to play it

16:47

really safe, you just, you

16:49

co -sign on the things

16:51

you feel especially certain about, right?

16:53

So that would be like,

16:56

oh, Melina won this award

16:58

for her podcast. That is

17:00

irrefutable, verifiable evidence that no

17:02

one is going to be

17:04

able to like say is

17:06

wrong. That's a very

17:08

safe thing to be putting

17:11

out there into the world

17:13

as a sponsor. But

17:16

on the other hand, if I

17:18

were to say, I think Melina is

17:20

so great that she is going

17:22

to win these podcast awards. And that's

17:24

why you should be paying attention

17:26

to her. That's in the future. It's

17:29

uncertain. You don't know.

17:31

So your willingness to

17:33

state that sort of outcome

17:35

with more certainty kind

17:37

of puts you more on

17:39

the hook for if

17:41

things don't go as you

17:43

predict. So you can

17:45

kind of choose how much

17:47

you want to predict into

17:49

the future for the other

17:51

person. And so if you

17:53

feel... scared

17:55

about sponsoring you can always just

17:58

stick with what you know

18:00

be true and that is super

18:02

low risk and still a

18:04

way to be a sponsor that

18:06

doesn't answer your other question

18:08

of like well why should you

18:10

sponsor if like it's so

18:12

risky um so if you're a

18:14

really good sponsor meaning you

18:16

know you make good calls People

18:19

trust you. They take your

18:21

recommendations. They end up working

18:23

with the people you recommend.

18:26

And they see that lo

18:28

and behold, this person

18:30

really is wonderful. It's

18:33

not just that your protege gets

18:35

a boost. It's like in the future,

18:37

they're going to pay even more

18:39

attention to the recommendations that you are

18:41

going to be giving out. And

18:44

so that's great for a couple

18:46

of reasons. One, because you have more

18:48

influence. But

18:50

the other reason it's really

18:52

great is because I like

18:54

to think of sponsorship as

18:56

a way to connect problems

18:59

with solutions. And the more

19:01

of us who can do

19:03

that, the better it is

19:05

for everyone. So if

19:07

you know people that other

19:09

people should know, it's really

19:11

much better if you're willing

19:13

to make those connections happen

19:15

than if you shy away

19:17

from, you know, introducing

19:20

people to each other, for instance. Right,

19:23

right. Well, and for everyone now

19:25

that's thinking, okay, yes, and, you

19:27

know, but I'm not Derek Jeter,

19:29

right? So, like, who am I?

19:31

What am I supposed to do?

19:33

What do I have here? Can

19:36

you share a little bit about, you

19:38

know, power and status and whether we...

19:40

Can everyone be a sponsor even if

19:42

we don't have? We would say we

19:44

don't have those things yet. Yeah.

19:46

So this is also a really

19:48

important distinction to be making. So

19:51

a lot of people think that

19:53

the only people who can sponsor

19:55

others are people who have lots

19:57

of power. So we would think

19:59

of Derek Jeter as someone who

20:01

has a lot of power because

20:04

in that situation, he's a co

20:06

-owner. and CEO of

20:08

the Marlins, so he clearly has

20:10

a lot of decision -making power. But

20:13

the most effective sponsorship

20:15

isn't necessarily coming from

20:18

power, it's coming from

20:20

status. So I'm a

20:22

social psychologist by training in

20:24

social psychology. We like to

20:26

distinguish between power and status.

20:30

Power is what we call

20:32

a control over resources

20:34

that other people want. And

20:37

status is the admiration

20:39

and respect that other people

20:41

have for you. So I

20:43

like to think of this

20:45

as you can exert influence

20:47

by compelling other people to

20:49

do what you want

20:51

or by getting them to

20:54

want to do it themselves. And

20:57

so power allows you to

20:59

compel, but status basically makes

21:01

other people want to do

21:03

it for you. of their

21:05

own volition so you're not

21:07

you're not forcing them to

21:09

do it they just they

21:12

just want to do it

21:14

and that's because we trust

21:16

people who have status um

21:18

so we don't actually necessarily

21:20

trust people who have power

21:22

if anything i think many

21:24

of us have a negative

21:26

association uh with people who

21:29

have power We typically

21:31

tend to think that our interactions with

21:33

them are not going to go very

21:35

well. They're not very friendly. But

21:37

that's not true for people who

21:39

have status. And so

21:41

sponsorship works best when

21:43

it comes from a person

21:45

with status. And

21:47

what I would

21:50

say to readers is

21:52

that you always

21:54

have status in somebody's

21:56

eyes. Not

21:58

necessarily. within

22:01

your organization, you might not feel

22:03

like you have a lot of

22:05

power, but you probably have at

22:08

least one or two people who

22:10

trust your judgment and would take

22:12

your advice if you were to

22:14

give it to them. And

22:17

that's trust that you can

22:19

leverage into sponsoring someone else because

22:21

sponsorship in a way, I

22:23

like to think of it as...

22:26

transitivity. So if you trust me

22:28

and I trust this person and

22:30

then think they're great, then you

22:32

should also trust that person. And

22:35

I assure you that you're going

22:37

to think they're great too, right? And

22:40

so for those people who think

22:42

they don't have a lot of power,

22:44

you want to start thinking less

22:46

about power, more about trust. And

22:49

then if it's really

22:51

daunting to you, just focus

22:53

on the positive stuff.

22:55

So I call it good

22:57

gossip. Good gossip is

22:59

always a low -hanging fruit

23:01

for all of us to

23:03

engage in. And it

23:05

actually seems to help everyone

23:08

when we share good

23:10

gossip because now other people

23:12

are aware of who's

23:14

good at what. But you

23:16

also get kudos for

23:18

being the kind of person

23:20

who pays attention. to

23:22

what other people are doing

23:24

and the good that other

23:27

people are doing. So you're

23:29

paying attention to the positives,

23:31

the contributions that other people

23:33

are making, and you seem

23:35

very other, what we would

23:37

call other focused, right? You're

23:39

not self -promoting, you are

23:41

promoting, but you're promoting somebody

23:43

else, which is a very

23:45

selfless kind of action. It's

23:49

a great way to show

23:51

that you care about the group,

23:53

to help somebody else, to

23:55

make it more obvious. Like if

23:57

there's someone in group who

23:59

has a problem that this person

24:01

would be good to, you

24:03

know, would be helpful to help

24:05

solve their problem. Like now

24:08

you have that information. It's what

24:10

we call like a win -win

24:12

-win situation for everyone. Yeah,

24:14

definitely. So

24:17

as we expand a little

24:19

bit on the idea of good

24:21

gossip, is it just that

24:23

we instead of saying, oh, my

24:25

gosh, did you see what

24:27

Melina was wearing yesterday? Yuck.

24:30

Sort of gossip instead of something like that

24:32

is more like, oh, my gosh, did

24:34

you hear, you know, Melina

24:37

just won this award on this

24:39

thing or whatever. Right. Like that.

24:41

And or is it, you know,

24:43

where does this tie into the

24:45

idea of just even being a.

24:47

connector, right? You know, as far

24:49

as I heard this job is

24:52

available, I'm going to tell them

24:54

about this person, like it's gossiping

24:56

that someone's, you know, good about

24:58

something or that you heard about

25:00

a job role, like what all

25:02

falls into the category of people

25:04

are looking to channel their need

25:07

to connect and gossip in a

25:09

positive way. What would that look

25:11

like? I mean, we do it

25:13

all the time, really. It's just

25:15

not necessarily about specific individuals. Like,

25:17

we just don't see it that

25:20

way. So, for instance, if you

25:22

were talking to someone and they're

25:24

like, you know, I'm just, I'm

25:26

feeling really bored. I know

25:28

how I, like, I just

25:30

don't have a lot of intellectual stimulation

25:32

in my life right now. Like, let's

25:34

imagine that that's their problem. Okay, so

25:36

that's their problem. And

25:38

so then maybe what you could do

25:41

is you would say, okay, well,

25:43

the way that I manage that problem

25:45

is I listen to a bunch

25:47

of podcasts. So let me tell you

25:49

about all the podcasts that I

25:51

find really interesting. And here's this one

25:53

by Melina Palmer. And you should

25:55

listen to the Brainy Business because that

25:58

one really captures my attention and

26:00

breaks things down in a way that

26:02

makes me feel intellectually stimulated. Here

26:05

is someone expressing that

26:07

they have a problem.

26:09

They're unaware of the

26:11

solutions available. And

26:13

you're essentially just helping them

26:15

make that connection. So

26:18

that would be an easy

26:20

one. In the workplace, this typically

26:22

manifests as like, oh, you

26:24

have this problem or you have

26:26

this question. I don't

26:28

necessarily know the answer to that

26:30

question or I don't have the

26:33

capacity to help you with this

26:35

thing right now. But I know

26:37

someone else who can answer that

26:39

question or who does have capacity

26:41

and would be a really great

26:43

fit for this sort of opportunity. Right.

26:46

Yeah. So making those sort of

26:48

connections and helping, you know, and so

26:50

when you were. Coming up with

26:52

those suggestions there, I definitely was thinking

26:54

about, you know, later in the

26:56

book, you talk a little bit about

26:58

listening and like actually really deeply

27:00

listening. And I think it was so

27:02

interesting to read about your examples

27:04

because we hear all the time that

27:06

you should be a better listener

27:08

and be an active listener. And it's

27:10

like, okay, fine. But

27:12

the exercise you talk about

27:15

in the book. It's

27:17

one that I found very

27:19

interesting. Can you share

27:21

a little bit about that?

27:23

It's one of my

27:25

favorite exercises. And

27:27

I will give credit where

27:29

credit is due. My colleague, Nathan

27:31

Pettit, was the one who

27:33

shared it with me. I don't

27:35

know if there's an alternative

27:37

originating author to the exercise. So

27:41

in this exercise, the

27:43

participants... paired off

27:45

into, well, they're paired

27:48

off in pairs. So

27:51

there's two of them. They're

27:53

sitting across the table from

27:55

each other and they have

27:57

to answer a series of questions.

28:00

But the kicker is that

28:02

while one of them is

28:04

speaking, the other one cannot respond.

28:07

And there's three rounds of the

28:09

exercise and each round gets...

28:11

longer and longer. So the first

28:13

round is two minutes long,

28:15

then it's five minutes and then

28:17

it's eight minutes. And

28:20

each person, you know, they

28:22

switch back and forth between

28:24

who is speaking and who's

28:26

listening. And it's really hard

28:28

for the people in the

28:30

exercise. Like the first two

28:32

minutes are just agony for

28:34

both of them, for both

28:36

the speaker and the listener.

28:40

Because the speakers usually run

28:42

out of things to

28:45

say. And the listeners are

28:47

like, how am I

28:49

supposed to engage in this

28:51

conversation when I can't

28:53

say anything? Or depending on

28:55

how I run it,

28:58

I also don't let them

29:00

make facial expressions either,

29:02

which is really hard for

29:04

a lot of people. But

29:08

what's really magical is that

29:11

as you go through the

29:13

exercise, people kind of relax

29:15

into it. So listeners, they

29:17

realize, oh, well, if I'm

29:19

not allowed to do anything,

29:22

like I can't say anything

29:24

in response and I can

29:26

do minimal facial expressions. So

29:28

now, I mean, the only

29:30

thing I have to do

29:33

is listen. And they find

29:35

that they are just like

29:37

much. They internalize a lot

29:39

more of what the other

29:41

person has to say. And

29:44

the speakers, some, I mean, some students

29:46

just never get over the fact that

29:48

they have to spend so much time

29:50

speaking. But there

29:52

are other students who

29:54

they realize like, huh,

29:57

this person can't respond one

29:59

way or the other. And

30:01

so. I don't have to

30:03

pay attention to if they understand

30:05

what I'm saying, if they

30:07

care about what it is that

30:09

I'm talking about. Like, I

30:11

can just talk about whatever I

30:13

want. And so

30:16

they start spewing stuff. I

30:18

like to call it verbal

30:20

vomit. But

30:22

they're like some really

30:24

golden gems in the

30:27

verbal vomit, right? Because

30:29

it's the uncensored stuff.

30:31

that we normally don't share. And

30:34

so after the exercise, I

30:36

think what's really compelling is

30:38

that, you know, the students will

30:40

always be like, that was

30:42

the weirdest thing ever. Like,

30:45

I don't want to ever do this

30:47

again. But when

30:50

you ask them, like, how close do

30:52

you feel with the other person?

30:54

How well do you feel like they

30:56

know you? They

30:58

all feel a lot

31:00

closer. to each

31:02

other. There's usually some

31:05

crying involved because someone

31:07

starts sharing something that

31:09

they didn't expect to

31:11

share. People

31:13

hug afterwards and they're like,

31:16

I feel like I made a

31:18

new best friend. I mean,

31:20

the responses to the exercise can

31:22

be really touching. Well,

31:25

and like you said with that, like,

31:27

you know, two minutes to just talk, I

31:29

feel like I could do that, right?

31:31

Eight is a lot, especially after I just

31:33

talked for two and five minutes as

31:36

you just sort of ramble. As a podcaster,

31:38

I speak into the abyss a lot,

31:40

so I'm sure I'd be okay. But

31:43

it is, it's fascinating. And

31:45

I know you, like you say

31:47

in the book is that

31:49

it feels like. to have

31:51

a good conversation, to get to

31:53

know people, this back and forth

31:55

is required. And so showing that

31:58

actually, if you just take the

32:00

time to listen and hear what

32:02

they're saying, that you can get

32:04

to a deeper level than would

32:06

have been possible if you're waiting

32:08

for your turn to talk, right?

32:10

If you're just looking to be

32:13

able to speak. Yeah.

32:15

Yeah. I think for

32:17

me, the important thing

32:19

for my students and

32:21

but also for the

32:24

readers is that um we

32:26

actually guide our conversations

32:28

in pretty significant ways through

32:30

our both through our

32:32

non -verbal behavior but also

32:35

in what we choose to

32:37

respond to right about

32:39

what the other person is

32:41

saying um and A

32:44

lot of times, we think

32:46

of the most constructive conversations

32:48

as one where both sides

32:50

are contributing equally. But there's

32:53

another version where what you

32:55

give to the other person

32:57

isn't your perspective, but really

32:59

just space for them to

33:01

articulate for themselves what is

33:04

important and where they want

33:06

to go. And you are

33:08

just kind of this passenger

33:10

in their self -exploration. Um,

33:14

so it's, you know, if

33:16

I had to give

33:18

some advice, maybe, um, right.

33:20

It's for, it's, it's for

33:23

the listeners who tend to like

33:25

to solve other people's problems,

33:27

like jump into problem solving mode

33:29

right away when they hear

33:31

the other person is struggling with

33:33

something. Um, because sometimes it's

33:35

actually, it's not just. okay, what

33:37

are you struggling with and

33:39

how can I help you solve

33:41

that? It's more important to

33:43

understand why the thing that they're

33:45

struggling with is one, a

33:47

struggle for them, but two, why

33:50

that thing in particular compared

33:52

to like anything else. And

33:54

that is the kind of

33:56

deeper information, but I think many

33:58

of us don't take the

34:00

time or give other people the

34:02

space to share with us. Yeah.

34:07

So as we look to bring

34:09

that, you know, kind of

34:11

full circle, how does this skill

34:13

of being a better listener

34:15

help as far as then being

34:18

a sponsor? Like, how does

34:20

that come into play? So I

34:22

think of sponsors, again, like

34:24

they're problem solvers. They're not just

34:26

people. They're not just like

34:28

PR people, like pushing out messages

34:31

into the world. It's

34:33

much more targeted. if

34:35

you're doing it right, because

34:37

you're not looking to spam

34:39

other people with positive gossip.

34:41

You want to focus your

34:43

sponsorship on the people who

34:45

are actually looking for the

34:47

solutions that you can offer,

34:49

which are the other people

34:51

in your network. So I

34:53

like you to think of

34:55

it as being really good

34:57

at identifying problems and really

35:00

good at identifying potential solutions.

35:02

And so when we think

35:04

about people as having problems

35:06

and being a good listener

35:08

and understanding one, you know,

35:10

one asking if they have

35:12

struggles, because that's often something

35:14

we don't necessarily ask about

35:16

or people necessarily even share

35:18

about. So that is part

35:20

of why I talk so

35:22

much about being a good

35:24

listener. It's about being able

35:26

to hear. what the

35:28

problems are and to understand

35:30

it at a deeper level

35:32

so that when you can

35:34

offer potential solutions in the

35:36

form of sponsoring somebody else

35:39

from your network, you have

35:41

a higher likelihood of making

35:43

a good match across those

35:45

two people. But it's not

35:47

just really understanding the problem. It's

35:49

also really understanding the solution. Right. So

35:51

if you know somebody has a

35:53

problem, you also need to know why

35:55

that person in particular would be

35:57

a good solution for that problem. Right.

35:59

And, you know, that just also

36:01

made me think a bit about taking

36:03

the time to ask as far

36:05

as those who become sponsored. You have

36:08

the example of the for Adobe

36:10

and the guy that had created the

36:12

different brushes and where we think

36:14

we don't have. People

36:16

are hesitant about asking sometimes. So

36:18

just, I think, getting back to

36:20

the side of someone who could

36:22

be sponsored, knowing that people are

36:25

out there. You

36:27

know, what's the little bit

36:29

about that story, I guess,

36:31

and then advice for people

36:34

to, like, you don't know

36:36

who you know and what

36:38

they know and who they

36:40

know. Right. Yes, that's right.

36:43

So just to briefly talk

36:45

about that story. So this

36:47

is a story of Kyle

36:49

Webster, and he is an

36:51

illustrator who actually invented these

36:54

digital paintbrushes. They're known as

36:56

Kyle Brushes. They became super

36:58

popular, so much so that

37:00

Adobe ended up acquiring them

37:02

and now includes them as

37:05

part of their... set

37:07

in adobe photoshop so

37:09

they're now very broadly

37:11

available um and when

37:14

adobe first approached kyle

37:16

about purchasing his brush

37:18

set he realized that

37:20

he had no idea

37:22

how he was supposed

37:25

to like how do

37:27

you even know how

37:29

much your brush set

37:31

is worth what

37:33

are the terms you can

37:36

ask for? Like, he definitely

37:38

needs, I mean, you need

37:40

a good lawyer, basically, is

37:42

what it comes down to. So

37:45

as an illustrator and

37:47

not necessarily like a business

37:49

person, he felt really

37:52

stuck because his network is,

37:54

was, and like many

37:56

of us. His network was

37:58

very composed of people

38:00

who were very similar to

38:02

him. So they were

38:04

all also illustrators. And he

38:06

was kind of like, okay,

38:09

well, right now I don't need an

38:11

illustrator. I need a lawyer. And I

38:13

don't know any lawyers. I only know

38:15

other illustrators. But

38:18

he ended up kind of

38:20

getting over himself and shouting,

38:22

you know, like an SOS

38:24

into the ether and being

38:27

like, okay, friends, I need

38:29

a lawyer, please, anyone.

38:31

know a lawyer. And as

38:33

it turns out, at least

38:35

one of his friends did

38:37

know a lawyer who was

38:39

perfectly qualified for this particular

38:42

type of transaction. And

38:44

so Kyle Webster was able

38:46

to fulfill his dream of

38:48

selling his brushes to Adobe.

38:51

And the moral of the story

38:53

there is that one, you

38:56

should ask for help when you

38:58

need it. Even

39:00

if you're not sure

39:02

if the right person

39:04

exists in your network.

39:07

And I think the other thing

39:10

that I would highlight here is

39:12

a lot of people think about

39:14

networking in terms of who you

39:16

know directly. And that's a very

39:18

simplistic way of thinking about networking.

39:20

The more advanced way of thinking

39:22

about networking is trying to figure

39:25

out who the people you know

39:27

know. So it's the second order. relationships

39:30

that are actually really important for

39:32

you to try and map out if

39:34

you can. Because

39:36

just like in Kyle Webster's case,

39:38

he had no idea who all

39:40

of his friends were connected to.

39:42

And it turns out there were

39:45

so many more resources in his

39:47

network than he realized. Yeah.

39:49

And just taking that time to

39:51

ask, I am a big advocate.

39:54

I always talk about how business...

39:56

and life, you know, but business

39:58

is a long game, right? And

40:00

in this space of, you know,

40:02

give generously, give often, there's a

40:04

reason we have be thoughtful kind

40:06

of as the moral of the

40:09

world here at the Brainy Business.

40:11

And just, you don't know when

40:13

you're going to need to ask

40:15

for something, but also like what,

40:17

you know, 25 steps down the

40:19

line is going to come back

40:21

around in a positive way and

40:24

just, you know, make the... see

40:26

the thing, make the call,

40:28

send the text, do the thing,

40:30

right? And eventually, you

40:32

know, it'll all work itself out.

40:35

But that's, so that is a

40:37

big reason why your book and

40:39

your work really appealed to me

40:41

of the, you know, showing the

40:43

science behind that and that it's

40:45

not just nice to do, there's

40:47

actually a lot of really good

40:49

value for other people too. Absolutely. Yeah,

40:52

that there's a way to network

40:54

that doesn't have to be dirty is

40:56

the way that I like to

40:58

think about it, right? It's not about

41:00

being super strategic and trying to

41:02

plan out, okay, five years from now,

41:04

I might need this person. So

41:06

I'm going to try and cultivate that

41:08

relationship now. Yeah,

41:11

even saying that you go. No,

41:17

it's, you know, it's very

41:19

much about just being super

41:21

curious about what's going on

41:23

with other people and being

41:25

willing to connect them to

41:27

other things that might, you

41:29

know, other things, other people

41:31

that are going to expand

41:33

their horizons. Yeah, I love

41:35

that. Well, I could talk to you

41:37

all day and we've already had so much

41:39

of your valuable time as we pick

41:41

and we didn't get to talk about, you

41:43

know, trusted 10 and so many amazing

41:45

things from the book. But if you were

41:47

going to take and of course, everyone

41:49

can go get their copy so they can

41:51

learn more about, you know, what the

41:54

doors they can open and and what those

41:56

things are we're talking about. But if

41:58

you were going to share, you know, one

42:00

last thing as we kind of wrap

42:02

up, what would you want people to know

42:04

as they think about? the work and

42:06

the book and anything else? Sure. So, you

42:08

know, I think we started off with

42:10

me saying that anybody can be a sponsor,

42:12

right? I think the

42:14

other big takeaway that I would

42:16

want readers to come away

42:18

with is this idea that it's

42:20

not about finding sponsors. So,

42:22

so many of us are fixated

42:24

on finding someone who can

42:26

sponsor us. And more about being

42:28

a sponsor, that the best

42:30

way to find sponsors is to

42:32

first sponsor other people. And

42:35

once you start saying nice things about

42:37

other people, those people are going

42:39

to start saying some really nice things

42:41

about you too. Yeah, love

42:43

that, right? The give first

42:45

and like, no, it'll all

42:47

come back, right? Perfect. So,

42:50

Rosalind, for everyone who is now so excited

42:52

to, of course, get their copy of the

42:54

book and to learn more and to follow

42:56

you, connect, whatever else, we'll put links in

42:58

the show notes, of course. But, you know,

43:00

what's their best path to do so? So

43:04

if you're actually a person

43:06

who's super interested in social

43:08

science, especially as it relates

43:10

to business and management. I

43:13

actually post fairly regularly on

43:15

LinkedIn. So in true

43:17

form, I don't really

43:19

post about my own research.

43:21

But what I do

43:23

is I summarize other people's

43:25

research and I talk

43:27

about what the practical implications

43:29

are of the research

43:31

for people who are working

43:33

right in the corporate

43:35

space. So you should

43:38

follow me on LinkedIn

43:40

if you're into social

43:42

science work. And you

43:44

can get the book

43:46

at any of your

43:48

favorite retailers, Amazon, Barnes

43:50

& Noble. I personally

43:52

prefer bookshop .org. But

43:54

truly, anywhere you normally get your

43:56

books. Yay, wonderful. And I would say,

43:58

you know, what you're talking about that

44:00

you share on LinkedIn feels very much

44:02

in line with, you know, the listener

44:04

base of here at The Brainy Business.

44:06

So I bet they will all be

44:08

very excited about that. And we'll have

44:10

links to your LinkedIn in the show

44:12

notes as well. So thank you again,

44:14

Rosalyn. It was so great to chat

44:16

with you today and excited to have

44:18

the book out in the world for

44:20

everyone. Yeah, thank you so much for

44:22

having me on. Thank you

44:24

again to Dr. Rosalind Chow for joining

44:27

me on the show today. What got

44:29

your brain buzzing in today's conversation? For

44:31

me, I'm guessing it won't come as

44:33

too much of a surprise to learn

44:35

that I really liked the discussion on

44:37

the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. I

44:39

also like that we all have the

44:41

opportunity to be a sponsor for someone

44:43

else. You don't have to be at

44:45

the top of any chain to be

44:47

able to help others. You can sponsor

44:49

someone right now, today. I

44:51

sound like an infomercial. But the

44:54

good news is sponsoring others is

44:56

an investment that pays dividends, which

44:58

very quickly can be monetary for

45:00

you, even though your initial act

45:02

doesn't have to cost you any

45:04

money. Sponsoring people is an act

45:06

of reciprocity, genuinely giving something

45:09

to others without expectation of anything

45:11

in return, but knowing that the

45:13

universe has a way of repaying

45:15

those who give first, give generously,

45:17

and give often. Even if

45:19

you don't think you have power, or

45:21

you objectively don't have power, it

45:24

doesn't mean that you don't have status.

45:26

They're different. Status is a form

45:28

of influence and something that everyone has.

45:30

You have status in a group

45:32

you're part of. It won't be in

45:34

every group and situation, and that's

45:36

okay. But who do you know that

45:38

authentically supports you and listens to

45:40

what you have to say? Where might

45:42

you pass that on to another

45:45

person who wants or needs access to

45:47

that group? Where's the win -win for

45:49

everyone? will

46:13

find me as the Braney Biz pretty

46:16

much everywhere and as Melina Palmer on

46:18

LinkedIn. There are links to make it

46:20

easy to connect with me in the

46:22

show notes, which also have links to

46:24

my top related past episodes and books,

46:27

including the doors you can open and

46:29

more. It's all waiting for you

46:31

in the app you're listening to

46:33

and at the Braney business.com/four eight nine.

46:36

And thank you again to

46:38

Rosalind Chow for joining me

46:40

on the show today. It

46:42

was a delight to chat

46:44

with and learn from you.

46:46

Join me Tuesday for another

46:48

brainy episode of the Brainy

46:50

Business Podcast. It's going to

46:52

be a lot of fun.

46:54

You don't want to miss

46:57

it. Until then, thanks again

46:59

for listening and learning

47:01

with me. And remember

47:03

to be thoughtful. Molina

47:05

offers virtual strategy sessions,

47:07

workshops, and other services to

47:09

help businesses be more brain friendly.

47:11

For more free resources, visit

47:13

thebrainybusiness .com.