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Behavior Lab. T-A-M-U like

1:07

Welcome to episode 473 of

1:10

the Brainy Business, understanding the

1:12

psychology of why people buy. In

1:14

today's episode, I'm excited to

1:16

introduce you to Barry Conchy and

1:18

Sarah Dalton, co -authors of The

1:20

Five Talents That Really Matter. Let's

1:24

get started. You are

1:26

listening to the Brainy Business

1:29

Podcast, where we dig

1:31

into the psychology of

1:33

why people buy and

1:35

help you incorporate behavioral

1:37

economics into your business,

1:39

making it more brain-friendly.

1:41

Now here's your host,

1:43

Molina Palmer. Hello,

1:45

hello everyone. My name is Melina

1:47

Palmer, and I want to welcome

1:49

you to the Brainy Business Podcast.

1:52

In today's conversation, I am joined

1:54

by two guests, Barry Conchie and

1:56

Sarah Dalton. Barry is the founder

1:58

and president of Conchie. He is

2:00

an expert in psychometric

2:02

talent assessments, leadership research and

2:04

development, team building, and

2:07

succession planning. Barry consults with

2:09

company boards, CEOs, and

2:11

leadership teams of leading organizations

2:13

across the globe and

2:15

researches leadership effectiveness and decision

2:17

-making heuristics. Sarah is a

2:19

partner at Conchi Associates.

2:21

She has worked extensively in

2:24

developing processes and training

2:26

teams across a variety of

2:28

industries and has managed complex

2:30

operational logistics for a

2:32

global company. Leaders and

2:34

managers partner with Sarah to

2:36

better understand the attitudes and

2:38

behaviors that drive performance and

2:40

how to select for talent

2:42

in the hiring process. She

2:44

is an expert at training

2:46

teams on interpreting talent assessments

2:48

and using those insights to

2:50

facilitate a superior candidate experience,

2:52

greater confidence in hiring decisions

2:54

and world -class performance across

2:56

all levels of an organization. Based

2:59

on their research of over 58 ,000

3:01

executive leaders in a variety of

3:04

industries, their book The Five Talents

3:06

That Really Matter, How Great Leaders

3:08

Drive Extraordinary Performance, dispels the fluff

3:10

in leadership literature, unveiling the traits

3:12

and characteristics that truly determine high

3:14

performance leadership. That is, of course,

3:16

what we are here to discuss

3:19

today. Now really quickly, before we

3:21

get into the conversation, I want

3:23

to be sure you know that

3:25

there are links in the show

3:27

notes for my top related past

3:29

episodes and books, ways to get

3:31

in touch with Barry and

3:33

Sarah and myself and more. It's

3:36

all within the app you're

3:38

listening to and at thebrainybusiness .com/473. Now

3:42

let's jump right in. Barry, Sarah,

3:44

welcome to the Brainy Business Podcast. Thank

3:47

you, Melina. Good to meet you, Melina. Yes,

3:51

I'm so excited to be here with

3:53

you today. I've really enjoyed reading your

3:55

book and learning more about your work.

3:57

Before we jump into talking about, you

3:59

know, what's in that amazing content. For everyone

4:01

who doesn't yet know you, can you

4:03

share a little bit about yourselves and the

4:05

work that you do? So

4:07

Barry and I run a consulting

4:09

business and we specialize in measuring

4:12

talents and people that drive the

4:14

highest levels of performance, no matter what

4:16

the job that they do. And

4:18

we wrote a book summarizing

4:20

all of our research into what

4:22

drives more effective leadership. Right.

4:25

So will be talking about that

4:27

today, but Barry and I have been

4:29

partners now for going on nine years.

4:32

Yeah, we work with companies to

4:34

help them resolve difficult selection

4:36

decisions, particularly. So if you think

4:38

about roles across the entire

4:40

spectrum of an organization, although our book is

4:42

about leadership, we know we focus on

4:44

all levels. And

4:46

the purpose of

4:48

that is to try to help organizations

4:51

pick the best people. And you know,

4:53

we don't need to spend a ton

4:55

of time talking today about how difficult

4:57

that is and how companies often get

4:59

it wrong. You know, you just look

5:01

at the news over the last month,

5:04

and I've read a dozen articles

5:06

about big CEOs losing

5:08

their jobs. So there were

5:10

12 occasions that I'm aware of

5:12

in the last month, where boards

5:14

got selection decisions wrong. So we

5:16

try to partner with boards to pick

5:19

CEOs who are more likely to succeed.

5:21

And then in all the other roles

5:23

in an organization to do the same

5:25

for those. Yeah.

5:28

And as we know, like you said,

5:30

don't need to talk about why

5:32

that is, you know, so harmful for

5:34

companies, especially as you get higher

5:37

up into organizations, right? If you get

5:39

it wrong, one, it's really expensive. And

5:42

of course, there's so

5:44

much just, you know,

5:47

the cognitive strain for different

5:49

team members and the stress

5:51

of, you know, transition that if

5:53

you can, and you lose,

5:55

you know, really valuable time for

5:57

an organization. So that and a

5:59

million five other reasons for why

6:01

it matters to get selection right.

6:03

I was really fascinated in the

6:05

book as you were talking about

6:07

the process you went through in

6:09

doing your research around this. So

6:11

as you share a lot, you

6:13

know, a lot of the advice

6:15

that's out there is kind of

6:18

in an end of one, you

6:20

know, my opinion is this sort

6:22

of space. And it was really

6:24

just fascinating to hear about your

6:26

process. Can you share about all

6:28

the work that you've done to

6:30

help make this a much more,

6:32

you know, quantifiable science of

6:34

hiring, you know, versus like I

6:36

said, that sort of my

6:38

gut says X, Y or Z. Well,

6:41

I think on the end of one

6:43

idea, Melina, we

6:45

aren't good at picking people either. I

6:47

mean, ourselves. So we don't

6:49

have any special powers

6:51

there or I, but we

6:54

are very good at

6:56

researching and building tools that

6:58

help narrow the error

7:00

rate in selection decisions. So

7:02

we started by defining

7:04

leadership performance and the success

7:06

that we wanted to study

7:08

in really successful leaders.

7:10

So we looked at three

7:12

characteristics. We looked at

7:14

measurable impact on financial process

7:16

measures in organizations. We

7:18

wanted to study people who number

7:20

one in their organization. We wanted to

7:22

study leaders who did that the

7:25

right way because you can achieve good

7:27

performance by bullying people and doing

7:29

nasty things to them. We

7:31

don't like that. We want leaders who

7:33

do it the right way. And therefore

7:35

we wanted to study leaders who were

7:37

in the top quartile of a credible

7:40

global measure on employee engagement because that would

7:42

be a good indicator that at least

7:44

we were treating people the right way. But

7:46

then the third criteria was the most

7:48

difficult and that is to achieve the first

7:50

two criteria for at least three consecutive

7:52

years. And the reason

7:54

why that's difficult is because businesses

7:56

go through different cycles. The economy

7:58

goes through cycles. But we didn't

8:01

want just to study people who

8:03

were riding the crest of a

8:05

way. We wanted to study people

8:07

who could deliver during the tough

8:09

times as well as the good

8:11

ones. So we looked at the

8:13

three timespan as the best indicator

8:15

of that. Then when we found

8:17

100 people who met those criteria,

8:19

which wasn't easy, we studied the

8:21

heck out of them. We put

8:23

them under the microscope. We put

8:25

them through a whole range of

8:27

other assessments as well as our

8:29

own. We observed them in team

8:31

meetings. watch them carry out one-on-one

8:33

reviews. We looked at them on

8:35

a stage to see how they

8:37

presented to others. And then we

8:39

looked at how they solved difficult

8:41

problems, the kind of questions that

8:43

they asked the process that they

8:45

went through. And we distilled from

8:47

all that knowledge the characteristics that

8:49

went into what we described in

8:51

the book, which is the assessment

8:53

that we built that predicts. more

8:55

leaders who look to have those

8:57

kinds of capabilities. And once we'd

8:59

achieve that and we built our

9:01

database up, then we thought, we

9:03

got to tell the world about

9:05

this. That's where the book came

9:07

from. I love that. And you

9:09

say, you know, you said here,

9:11

it was hard to find 100

9:13

people. I think it is that

9:15

met the criteria. I think people

9:17

will be surprised how many... People

9:19

you had to evaluate through to

9:21

get to 100. I think it's

9:23

even more than we might realize

9:25

thousands. Thousands. The thing to think

9:27

about Molina is this. Exceptional leadership

9:29

is extremely rare. And I think

9:31

it's really important people recognize that.

9:33

It's beyond the reach of the

9:35

vast majority of people. And I

9:37

think people just need to level

9:39

set themselves against that reality. Exceptional

9:41

leadership isn't in the reach of

9:43

everybody. In fact, it's not in

9:45

the reach of most people. It's

9:47

in the reach of a tiny

9:49

number of people and what we

9:51

try to do is find out

9:53

who those people are. Now that

9:55

doesn't mean people can't use our

9:57

analysis and figure out how to

9:59

improve. It's that everybody has a

10:01

limit and the limit for most

10:03

people is that they won't be

10:05

outstanding organizational leaders and our assessment

10:07

tries to figure that out. Definitely.

10:12

So, of course, in the spoiler

10:14

alerts of the world, you've

10:16

boiled it down to five talents

10:18

that matter when it comes

10:20

to this. Can you share a

10:22

little bit, I guess, first,

10:25

how you define a talent and

10:27

then sharing a little bit

10:29

about what goes into those criteria,

10:31

those sections? When you

10:34

typically hear people talking about talent,

10:36

it's in really generalized ways, right,

10:38

where I could be really talking

10:40

about anything. The important distinction

10:42

for us is that

10:45

talents are, talents are

10:47

innate, right. They are

10:49

born into who we are

10:51

as people. They are patterned into

10:53

how we think. Talent

10:55

tells us about the things

10:57

that people consistently do really

10:59

well to an incredibly high

11:01

standard, sometimes without having to

11:03

try very hard. The reason

11:05

why we look at talent

11:07

in terms of predicting effectiveness

11:10

in a role is, again,

11:12

they are stable. They are

11:14

resistant to change. They are

11:16

highly predictive of how people

11:18

ultimately behave. So, an

11:20

issue with a lot of assessments

11:22

out there is they are personality

11:24

-based. It's really difficult to get

11:27

a stable or a good prediction

11:29

around how people are going to

11:31

behave if you're just looking at

11:33

personality. An example of

11:35

that, if I were to ask

11:37

you to describe an extrovert, right,

11:40

everyone can figure out 15

11:42

different ways of characterizing that,

11:44

but it's really difficult for

11:47

what you can't always do

11:49

with, say, extroverts always behaving these

11:51

ways in all situations. So talents

11:53

are much more narrowly defined

11:55

than what you get with

11:57

broad descriptors like extroversion. They

12:00

capture things like discipline

12:02

and detail orientation. And when

12:04

you get people who are highly

12:07

disciplined, buttoned up, there's a

12:09

process for everything. They've got

12:11

ways of organizing things in their

12:13

mind where details don't go missed,

12:16

right? When you get really strong

12:18

evidence of talents like that, people

12:20

can't shut it off in themselves.

12:23

You can't tell a disciplined, structured person

12:25

to just go out and wing

12:27

it, that they don't need all

12:29

details. So sometimes a talent like

12:31

that, it's a differentiator between really

12:34

high performers and people who are

12:36

just kind of average or mediocre.

12:38

So in our world, talents are

12:40

massively predictive of how people behave.

12:43

And then again, all the research that we

12:45

do is what talent for the matter

12:47

in specific roles. So when we're

12:49

looking at effective leadership, we've kind

12:51

of centered around five broad talents.

12:54

One of those, when you look

12:56

at what leaders need to do,

12:58

they've got a set direction in their

13:00

business. So leaders need to have

13:02

a way of looking at all

13:04

the goals and opportunities in front

13:06

of them and figuring out what

13:09

it is that they're going to do.

13:11

So the talent of setting direction

13:13

is all the thinking that plays

13:15

out before we just make up our

13:17

mind and say we're going to do

13:19

this. Right? Another talent that we

13:21

look at is what drives and

13:24

motivates a leader. Because I need

13:26

people in these positions who

13:28

set high standards for themselves

13:30

and other people. They've got

13:32

to harness all of the

13:34

energy in their organization and

13:36

drive people to the most

13:38

productive outcomes. The third and

13:40

fourth talents that we look at

13:43

and talk about in the book

13:45

are around how you how you

13:47

exert pressure and influence people to

13:49

do things So if I'm in a

13:52

leadership role I've got to be

13:54

able to break through resistance

13:56

in my organization and push

13:58

people to do what? is right. So

14:00

we've got to be able to

14:02

influence people. We look at that

14:04

as a leadership talent. Fourth is

14:06

about how you build connectivity in

14:08

your organization. Now if you think

14:10

about a company and all of

14:12

the people in it, you can

14:14

almost look at that as a

14:16

kind of social network where there

14:18

are bonds in connections that exist

14:21

between people, right? And what we

14:23

found is that the stronger those

14:25

bonds are. the easier information flows,

14:27

things happen easier at a company

14:29

where people have good relationships with

14:31

each other, and leaders really need

14:33

to drive that kind of connectivity.

14:35

So we look at that as

14:37

its own leadership talent. And then

14:39

fifth is, you know, the first

14:41

one that we talked about is

14:43

about setting direction. It's thinking about

14:45

what we could do. The final

14:47

talent that we talk about in

14:49

the book is around how you

14:51

control traffic, how you set the

14:53

right guardrails up so that things

14:55

get done in more predictable ways.

14:57

So controlling traffic as a talent

14:59

is about how you put the

15:01

right systems and processes in place

15:03

that enable things to just get

15:05

done. Right? So those are kind

15:07

of broad descriptors of what leaders

15:09

do. And then within each of

15:11

those five areas, we talk about

15:13

all the different characteristics that we

15:15

find and really successful leaders, because

15:17

they won't all do it the

15:19

same way. Definitely. And I love,

15:21

thank you for giving that great

15:23

summary there, Sarah. And of course,

15:25

you know, good news, there's a

15:27

whole book, you can read more

15:29

about each of those five things,

15:31

right, and how they come together.

15:33

And you know it's an important

15:35

point like you said there so

15:37

you found from your hundred people

15:39

and as you said that these

15:41

are the five areas but not

15:43

everyone's going to do them exactly

15:45

the same way it's not going

15:47

to show up in the same

15:49

way for every role and so

15:51

for someone who maybe doesn't even

15:53

know like I'm just being exposed.

15:55

to these five

15:57

things. I've never

15:59

really thought about

16:01

them before. How

16:03

do I start to analyze

16:05

whether I myself have any

16:07

of or all of these

16:10

qualities? And if the people

16:12

on my team have them, right?

16:14

If I haven't thought about them, where do

16:16

you advise people kind of start in that process?

16:19

The book goes into a lot of detail

16:21

about how to do that with respect to

16:23

yourself. So, you know, we

16:25

pose pretty powerful, reflective questions

16:27

to say, look, as you

16:29

consider this particular talent. And they're

16:32

fairly broad descriptors. So there's

16:34

some variance within each of those

16:36

talents that, you know, we

16:38

try to drill into so that

16:40

people can help potentially identify

16:42

those characteristics in themselves. So those

16:45

self -reflection questions help them a

16:47

little bit. And similarly, we

16:49

ask them to apply those questions

16:51

to the observations they make of other

16:53

people. But the caveat we put

16:55

around that is that people

16:57

are largely influenced to a

16:59

big degree by

17:01

likability. And

17:03

therefore, the only real way of

17:05

definitively answering that question is

17:08

through an assessment, where

17:10

it isn't me making a judgment

17:12

on you. It isn't contingent on

17:14

me getting my assessment of you

17:16

accurate. The assessment can do it

17:18

for you. So, you know, one

17:20

of the things that people can

17:22

do, we open this up at the end

17:24

of the book, is we give them the chance

17:26

to take this assessment after they've read

17:28

the book. So they can

17:31

actually get very accurate

17:33

information about how to measure their

17:35

strengths in each of these

17:37

areas. It's a little hard for

17:39

some people because we're very honest

17:41

in the book. We don't pull any punches. And

17:45

one of the ways that we illustrate that

17:47

honesty is by right out of the gate

17:49

saying, we've yet to find a leader who's

17:51

strong in all five areas. We

17:53

haven't found one yet. Our database,

17:56

when we wrote the book, was

17:58

58 ,000. It's now about 61 ,000. We've

18:00

yet to find a person who's good at

18:02

everything. And yet, if you were to ask

18:04

leaders and interview them, there are quite

18:07

a few people who think they're good

18:09

at everything. And so that's why the

18:11

self-reflection is a little unreliable, and

18:14

that's why we encourage people, look,

18:16

if you're really serious about your

18:18

leadership development, it's as important to

18:21

know what you're not as good

18:23

at, as reaffirm the things that

18:25

you are good at. And therefore,

18:27

that's why we opened up. the

18:29

assessment and I think that's a

18:31

big differentiated because there aren't we can't

18:33

find another way outside of those

18:36

generalized personality assessments that Sarah

18:38

mentioned before of getting a

18:40

really good read of your

18:43

future leadership potential and we're

18:45

very honest with people when they

18:47

take the assessment we'll say look

18:50

we don't think top leaderships

18:52

for you so rather than encourage people

18:54

and give them false hope or as

18:56

we put it. lying to people about

18:58

their future capability just to

19:00

make them feel good about

19:03

themselves. We'll tell them the truth.

19:05

Yeah. Well, and I think in so

19:07

many ways, there may, you know, it

19:09

doesn't mean that they'll never be successful

19:11

in any role, right? But it's being

19:14

able to help someone to see, hey,

19:16

you're not going to like this, it's

19:18

going to be really hard, like it's

19:21

not going to be that right fit,

19:23

but there may be a role that,

19:25

or there is, you know, there are

19:27

several other options of roles where you

19:30

can excel that maybe aren't just being,

19:32

you know, the CEO of a

19:34

Fortune 500 company, right, like that's

19:36

not going to be, be it. It

19:38

feels like it's relatively recent that

19:41

companies are getting smarter about the

19:43

need to develop. kind of individual

19:46

contributor level expert tracks where it

19:48

isn't the only way that you're

19:50

going to gain status and more

19:53

money in your career that you

19:55

start managing people and climbing that

19:57

ladder. The reality is that Most

20:00

people aren't cut out to manage and

20:02

lead people, particularly not at the highest

20:04

levels of the company. So like Barry

20:07

said, if we keep lying to people,

20:09

or we keep making it seem that

20:11

that is the only option if you

20:14

want to grow, then it just pushes

20:16

more people towards that. So what, again,

20:18

I'm really encouraged by some of the

20:21

discussions that I've seen around, is there

20:23

a different way? How do we keep

20:25

challenging and developing people if it isn't

20:28

in leadership? Very recent. Yeah. In

20:30

the book we shared data that

20:32

indicates that 80% of managers shouldn't

20:34

be in the job. Now that's

20:36

not just our own research. We

20:38

share third-party research that shows

20:40

pretty conclusively that people fall

20:43

into management and leadership positions

20:45

by accident and they wake

20:47

up one morning and they're

20:49

miserable. So to your point,

20:52

not everybody's cut out to be a

20:54

leader, so there's a roll out there for

20:56

somebody. And what we try

20:58

to do is to say, look,

21:00

it might not be leadership. Now,

21:02

one of the options that we

21:04

offer in taking our assessment is

21:06

that Sarah gives a candidate feedback.

21:09

So she gets on the phone

21:11

or the video and she goes

21:13

through their assessment. And part of

21:15

that conversation may well be, look, sure,

21:17

you can keep trying to climb

21:19

the corporate ladder if you

21:21

want. You're going to reach

21:23

a level where you're utterly

21:26

miserable. And then you're going

21:28

to inflict that misery

21:30

on everybody that you work with

21:33

for free. You know, you don't charge

21:35

for it. You know, you just give

21:37

it for nothing. And it

21:39

destroys people. It destroys careers.

21:42

It destroys families. It

21:44

increases stress. Now I remember

21:47

talking to a teacher of

21:49

one of my children of American

21:51

school. I came over from the

21:53

UK in 2000. I sat

21:55

down with this teacher, I said, you don't

21:58

look at all you're having fun. And,

22:01

you know, she kind of blasted a little

22:03

bit, you know, she was obviously highly, highly

22:06

stressed. And I looked at her

22:08

in the face and said, what right have you got

22:10

to be miserable with children? And

22:12

that was a rather sharp comment. But

22:15

I said, there's got to be a role that makes you

22:17

happy. What puts a smile

22:19

on your face? Because it isn't teaching.

22:21

And we have to have those

22:23

conversations with people, in companies who are

22:25

managing other people. They've

22:27

got no right to

22:29

come into an organization

22:31

and inflict mediocre management

22:33

on the people in their charge. Now,

22:36

we used to call this the beta principle, where

22:38

people were promoted to

22:40

their level of incompetence. That

22:43

applies to 80 % of

22:45

managers across companies

22:47

around the world. We've got to get

22:49

real about it. And what we

22:51

tried to do is to correct that

22:53

statistical anomaly. Yeah, I

22:55

mean, it's, it's

22:57

very, I will

23:00

say, like humbling and hearing it

23:02

that way, right, as we

23:04

know, we of course have some

23:06

of that optimism bias problem

23:08

for ourselves and wanting to, you

23:10

know, say that's not me,

23:12

right? Everybody's going to say, oh,

23:14

good. Yeah, that other 80 %

23:16

is the problem, right? Like, that

23:18

can't possibly be me. We

23:21

know we want to be trying to

23:23

take a more, you know, honest look

23:25

and know that it shouldn't be the

23:27

goal to rise up until we're miserable,

23:29

right? We should be feel

23:32

enjoying the work we do. That

23:34

is possible for all of us, whatever.

23:36

And there can be a role for

23:38

everyone, which is good. So as people

23:40

are looking and if we are saying,

23:42

okay, we're going to be finding, like

23:45

you said, with those five talents, you

23:47

haven't found someone yet that has, you

23:49

know, exceptionally is doing all five of

23:51

those things. I also really appreciate in

23:53

the book, you talk about not trying

23:55

to. It's not the things you're weak

23:58

at that you need to focus. on

24:00

those necessarily, like this weakness and strengths

24:02

conversation. So what does someone do if

24:04

they find, like, is it, do I

24:06

need four, is being really good at

24:08

two of them enough, are some of

24:10

them most important, you know, how do

24:13

we go about understanding, you know, what

24:15

we're trying to do, if we're just,

24:17

and we can say just looking kind

24:19

of for ourselves. Well, let me, let me

24:21

give you a few thoughts and then I'm

24:23

going to ask Sarah to fill in a

24:25

few more of the details of the details.

24:27

And five is beyond reach. So between

24:30

two and five, we've got to

24:32

find out a workable blend. And

24:34

the answer isn't for people to try

24:36

to become brilliant in areas where

24:38

they're not very good because we

24:41

know what the success rate looks

24:43

like. You know, if you want a real

24:45

illustration of that, you know, have

24:47

you ever come across a person

24:49

who couldn't deliver a tough message? Right?

24:51

And we all have. And then the

24:54

question is, did training solve it?

24:56

and the answer is always no. Because

24:58

we're talking about traits and

25:00

characteristics at the level of the

25:02

brain and they are very very difficult to

25:04

change. So we do things like say well

25:07

if you're going to go in for a

25:09

tough meeting with an employee write down what

25:11

you want to say so they write it

25:13

down but then when they deliver it they

25:15

sugar-coated. So what we then say is okay

25:17

write it down talk them through and then

25:20

give the piece of paper to them afterwards

25:22

so they sugar coat what they write down.

25:24

Right, but they just can't seem to

25:26

deliver that kind of tough message. And

25:28

our five talents are like that. And

25:30

so one of the best things to

25:33

do is to build partnerships. And you

25:35

mentioned in an earlier question about the

25:37

team component, you know, not just how

25:39

you look at yourself, but how you

25:41

look at other people. You know, you

25:44

might not be capable in one area where

25:46

one of your team members is brilliant.

25:48

Well, that looks like

25:50

potential for an optimized

25:52

relationship. The problem is. that all

25:55

the effective leadership research

25:57

into the way people fly. to

26:00

other people is that they tend to pick

26:02

people like themselves. Now they deny this, you

26:04

know, you say to a person, do you

26:06

pick people like themselves? They say, oh no,

26:08

we don't do that. But then you, you

26:11

know, we come along and measure them and

26:13

it's as though we found, you know, a

26:15

little community in Western Nebraska that humans still

26:17

haven't discovered yet. They're all very similar to

26:19

each other. And so what we have

26:22

to do is encourage people to look

26:24

for more diverse capabilities than the people

26:26

that they bring on to their team.

26:28

That's where the assessments can help. Yeah,

26:30

Sarah, do you want to add or

26:32

build on that? Any thoughts? Yeah, just

26:34

talking about the issue of likeability, when

26:36

you think about what happens when you

26:39

get two people in a room together.

26:41

The goal is, can I build

26:43

up chemistry with this person? Can I

26:45

see myself working with them? Do I

26:47

like them as a person? And it's

26:50

when those judgments start to play

26:52

out that people end up picking

26:54

people like themselves. So part of

26:56

the value in the research that

26:59

we do and the assessments that

27:01

we build is that we are

27:03

broadening a company's understanding of what

27:05

talents actually predict effective leadership. Because

27:08

without that, again, people are thinking

27:10

in their minds, well, these are

27:12

the talents that made me successful.

27:14

I've got a really strong work

27:17

ethic. I'm really organized. I'm more

27:19

outgoing and gregarious. And so

27:21

the talents that made me

27:23

successful must replicate. you know, when

27:25

I see that replicated in other

27:28

people, I develop a reference for

27:30

it without even realizing it. And

27:32

when we study really effective leaders,

27:34

when we study really good people

27:37

in any role, again, they do

27:39

things in different ways, sometimes dramatically

27:41

different from each other. So

27:43

we try and build up a

27:45

model that's flexible enough to highlight

27:48

some of those differences, so that

27:50

when I've got an action-oriented, energize

27:52

our bunny and a leader over

27:54

here and someone comes along who's

27:57

way more thoughtful and deliberative and

27:59

slower to react, then we can

28:01

actually put a measurement and some

28:03

understanding to the characteristics that they

28:06

might not be picking up in the

28:08

room, right? But the first thing we've got

28:10

to do is really understand who are

28:12

our best people, how do they achieve

28:14

their success? And when you find really

28:16

good people, you just find that sometimes

28:19

they do it in very different ways

28:21

from each other. So I think that's

28:23

where assessments can just bring out

28:25

a ton of value in educating

28:27

people. about how other people think

28:30

that are different to

28:32

themselves. And Molina, we

28:34

want to enlist your help, but

28:36

we need a lot of help

28:39

in this area. We'd like

28:41

to remove the term chemistry as

28:43

part of the evaluation

28:46

between people because it's one

28:48

of the worst terms I

28:50

hear hiring managers and

28:52

executives use. as an excuse

28:54

for making about hiring decision.

28:56

Oh I felt this chemistry

28:59

with the person. At that

29:01

point all the alarm bells

29:03

should be ringing because chemistry is

29:05

horrible. What it really means

29:07

is I found someone that's

29:09

like me and it doesn't need

29:11

me to point out the diversity

29:13

challenges at the top of most

29:16

organizations, the lack of female leaders

29:18

or lack of minority leaders. And

29:20

all you have to do is

29:22

to think back to what chemistry

29:24

means in those circumstances. We know

29:26

exactly what it means because we

29:28

can measure the outcome. I think

29:31

that's such an important point.

29:33

As someone who once was told

29:35

I couldn't be promoted and shouldn't

29:37

be at a spot because I

29:40

wasn't nice enough and it was

29:42

a very nice culture. And I

29:44

brought, you know, you'd ask questions

29:46

and, you know, it's like I

29:49

wasn't always just saying the nice

29:51

thing or whatnot. So I get

29:53

that, some of that piece, right?

29:55

But, and I think I'm pretty

29:57

nice. I think people would. But

30:00

anyway, with that, I'm curious about

30:02

this balance between, because I totally

30:04

get the chemistry thing, like, right?

30:07

And people are also, I think,

30:09

the natural pushback, and potentially you've

30:11

heard this a ton of times,

30:14

right? But is this, but we

30:16

need people who are a good

30:18

cultural fit. and to evaluate if

30:20

they're a cultural fit is going

30:23

to be, you know, that's chemistry.

30:25

Do they get along with the

30:27

team? You know, how does that

30:30

kind of come together? So what's

30:32

the balance for people where

30:34

we do want to make sure that

30:36

there is a good corporate culture? You

30:38

know, how do we bring that

30:40

all together? Well, we start

30:43

by shifting people's perception of

30:45

what culture is. We talk a

30:47

lot about... high performing organizations

30:50

and you build high

30:52

performing organizations by people

30:55

completing roles to world class

30:57

standards. So we select people

30:59

who can contribute superior

31:02

performance to an organization. Now

31:04

to me, that's a really

31:06

important cultural attribute, high

31:09

performance. So if that's the

31:11

arbiter, then we're not talking about

31:13

social connectivity. We're not

31:15

talking about likeability.

31:17

Both those elements, by the

31:20

way, lead to us picking people like

31:22

ourselves. We're focusing on the

31:24

traits and characteristics that enable

31:26

a person to perform at

31:28

the highest standards. And one

31:31

of the questions that we force

31:33

executive leaders in

31:35

particular to consider is could

31:37

you ever imagine appointing a

31:39

person you actively dislike? The

31:41

answer should be yes. And as I

31:43

think back on my career, I've worked with

31:46

quite a few people I didn't like,

31:48

but my goodness, some of them were

31:50

really good for me. And these are people

31:52

I'd never take out for a cup of

31:54

coffee. I would never call them my friends,

31:56

but some of the work we

31:58

did together was phenomenal. They made

32:00

my brain hurt. I didn't

32:02

like them. They probably didn't

32:05

like me. In fact, that's

32:07

a racing certainty, right?

32:10

And we've got to make

32:12

that okay. So what we

32:14

can't allow organizations to

32:16

do is use cultural

32:18

fit as a means of squeezing

32:20

the real talent out of

32:23

a person. Because that to

32:25

us is a recipe for mediocrity.

32:27

If you want to know why

32:29

most companies have not broken away

32:32

from their competitive set, you look

32:34

at industry by industry by

32:36

industry, you look at that

32:38

whole bunch of companies that

32:40

are indistinguishable from their competitors.

32:43

It's because cultural fit has

32:45

played too much of a part

32:47

of the perceptions they have of

32:49

who will succeed in their organizations.

32:52

And it's a complete and utter...

32:54

nonsense. The good news is that

32:56

Sarah and I call that out,

32:58

you know, which is, which is why,

33:00

you know, we're not a fit

33:03

for some organizations

33:05

because some organizations

33:07

can't grasp it. That's

33:09

a really powerful question in the,

33:11

because I think, you know, we

33:14

say, would you hire or a

33:16

point, like you said, someone

33:18

that you don't like? I think

33:20

we want to say like, no, right, of

33:23

course not, but, you know, there's seeing the

33:25

value in that I think is really

33:27

powerful for people and to see, you

33:29

know, it doesn't have to just be

33:31

about that liking. And, you know, hopefully

33:34

there's some version of some mutual respect

33:36

that comes in that someone's not just,

33:38

you know, mean for no reason, but.

33:40

Before we close out our conversation, I

33:42

really want to make sure we have

33:45

at least a little bit of time

33:47

to talk about kind of the interview

33:49

questions, assessment questions, and of course we

33:51

won't get to all of them, but

33:53

you have some really important questions in

33:56

the book and showing, you know, trying to get

33:58

away from maybe some of these, you know, How

34:00

many golf balls can you

34:02

fit in a Volkswagen? Questions.

34:04

And knowing that there are

34:06

some things that we can

34:08

be asking that are more

34:10

standardized, can you share just

34:12

some tips for people that

34:14

are in that HR space

34:17

or something thinking about interviewing

34:19

potential candidates, what should they

34:21

be considering as they're looking

34:23

to hire for these five talents?

34:26

So I won't remember the exact questions in

34:28

the book, but I can definitely give

34:31

you an illustration of how these work

34:33

and one of them that I play

34:35

out for people quite often. But in

34:38

the book, for each of the five

34:40

talents, we've set out sets of interview

34:42

questions. And we're really good at thinking

34:45

about what's the non-obvious question that we

34:47

could ask that is open-ended, that invites

34:49

people to tell us what they really

34:52

think. And then what we've done in

34:54

the book is said, here's what a

34:56

good answer looks like, because the mistake

34:59

that too many hiring managers make is

35:01

they have their kind of pet questions

35:03

that they like to ask, but they

35:06

don't actually know what they're listening for.

35:08

They don't know what kind

35:10

of candidate responses are actually

35:12

predictive of better performance, right? And

35:15

there's simple illustrations of this. I

35:17

think one, there is a kind

35:19

of salesy question that that hits

35:22

home. And it's, you know, think about

35:24

if you just happen to be in

35:26

a room in a really sales reps,

35:29

for example. A question you might ask

35:31

is, you know, as you think about what

35:33

you do well compared to other

35:35

reps that you've seen in the

35:37

business, right? So you're out there.

35:40

You've met other people in your

35:42

company, you met your competitive reps.

35:44

What do you do better than other

35:47

people? Now. Sometimes you might get

35:49

brilliant answers to that question, that in

35:51

the moment sound wonderful. You know, what

35:53

if you get a rep that comes

35:55

in and says, you know, as I

35:57

think about my performance against other reps.

35:59

One thing that I think I do really

36:02

well is building relationships with

36:04

customers. My customers consider me a

36:06

friend, they have access to my personal

36:08

phone number, I know the kids' birthdays,

36:10

I know what they're doing on weekends,

36:12

and that really informs the conversations that

36:15

we have week to week, so that

36:17

I know, my customers know I know

36:19

them as people, right? So someone can

36:21

really play up that kind of

36:23

response, and in the moment, it

36:26

sounds wonderful. I'm thinking... I need

36:28

to get that person into my

36:30

business. What about the rep that

36:32

comes in and says, as I

36:34

think about myself against other people,

36:36

I close deals? I close deals

36:39

better than anybody, right? One of

36:41

those responses is massively

36:43

predictive of higher performance in the

36:46

role, although the other one sounds

36:48

good too. So what we've done

36:50

in the book is giving you

36:52

illustrations of what are really

36:54

good questions to ask. that

36:56

people don't, can't listen to those

36:59

and know off the bat what it is that

37:01

you want to hear, right? That's mistake

37:03

number one. Managers usually make

37:05

is the answer is always

37:07

obvious. So what's the non-obvious

37:09

question? How do we invite people to

37:11

tell us what they really think? But

37:14

also, what does a good response sound

37:16

like? What do you need to

37:18

hear that's more predictive of higher

37:20

performance in a role? So

37:22

it's those kinds of things where

37:25

I think people are going to

37:27

get a tremendous amount of value

37:29

just out of that one chapter.

37:32

What questions should you be

37:34

asking? And just on that issue

37:36

about, you know, number of ping pong

37:38

balls or tennis balls, you can

37:40

fit in a Volkswagen or whatever

37:43

it is. So I've sat down

37:45

with people who've asked that

37:47

question, but I said, what's a good

37:49

answer. Now they never give

37:51

you a specific number. They don't

37:54

say 17,328. They never do that.

37:56

What they say is, well you

37:58

know, it te- which is me

38:00

something about how the person thinks. So,

38:04

you know, I list some people

38:06

imagine, you know, a cardboard box of

38:08

a certain size and how many of

38:10

those fit into the vehicle. And then

38:13

they estimate the number of balls that

38:15

go in each cardboard box and multiply

38:17

the number of balls by each card,

38:19

you know, and they get, they get

38:21

at this. So they say, I learned

38:23

something about how they think and people

38:26

answer that question in different ways. And

38:28

then I turn around and say, so when you've

38:30

learned that, how does it correlate to performance? Then

38:34

it's like crickets. I

38:37

said, so okay, so the fact that somebody

38:39

gives that kind of an answer and you

38:41

like that answer, what does that tell

38:43

you about how they're gonna perform? They've

38:45

got no idea at all. So what we

38:47

try to do is cut through that

38:49

kind of nonsense and say,

38:51

look, stop playing silly games. I mean,

38:53

there's one, one of the CEOs

38:55

of one of the big search firms,

38:59

his favorite question to a

39:01

candidate is, tell me how

39:03

you make a tuna fish sandwich?

39:06

I mean, what

39:08

planet are we on? I

39:10

mean, whatever, whatever a

39:12

person says around how they

39:14

make a tuna fish sandwich,

39:17

there's nothing that that CEO

39:19

is listening to that's gonna help

39:21

him make a prediction of future

39:23

performance, nothing. So what we try to

39:25

do is teach people to stop

39:27

asking stupid questions and to

39:29

start asking questions around

39:31

which, listening for specific responses

39:33

increases your confidence about

39:36

a future prediction of performance.

39:39

And we'd probably go through about 30

39:41

to 40 questions in the book. So

39:43

one of the values that people get

39:45

from reading it is that when you

39:47

go through all the process leading up

39:49

to that point, when you then go

39:51

through the questions, you've got a much

39:53

better understanding about how to ask good

39:55

questions and stop asking bad ones.

39:58

Oh, by the way, Here's another

40:01

good question. If you were

40:03

an animal, what kind of animal

40:05

would you be? And then get the

40:07

follow-up. And what color would

40:09

you be? Right? Well, I heard to

40:12

tell people that I'm a purple kangaroo.

40:14

Now, what are we learning about

40:16

people by asking stupid questions

40:19

of this time? A long time

40:21

ago I wrote a series of

40:23

articles on LinkedIn and I did

40:26

it every week. and I

40:28

was illustrating stupid interview

40:30

questions. Now I did that

40:33

about eight years ago, Molina,

40:35

and I've got to tell

40:37

you I could be continuing

40:39

that article to this day because

40:41

there are so many of them.

40:43

But yeah, so I'm a purple

40:46

kangaroo if anybody is interested.

40:48

Sarah, do you know what sort

40:50

of animal you would be, what

40:52

color you would be? Do you

40:54

have the... No clue. I'll be

40:56

a dog. It doesn't matter, right?

40:58

I thought this thing is to

41:00

talk about these interview questions. Imagine

41:02

I'm in a company and I've got

41:04

a kind of structured set of interview

41:07

questions and they're good ones like

41:09

the ones we've got in the

41:11

book, right? Imagine that I ask

41:13

every candidate those same questions. And

41:16

now I've got a more objective means

41:18

of comparing people versus what we know

41:20

actually happens where hiring managers go into

41:22

the room and it's an off-the-cuff conversation

41:24

and at the end of it I've

41:27

just got to decide how I feel

41:29

and who I liked more in the

41:31

room. Right? It's that we need to

41:33

start winding people back from. So I

41:35

love thinking about just the improvement and

41:38

an overall process. If I've got good

41:40

questions and I give everyone a chance

41:42

to tell me what they think across

41:44

the... areas that I know actually connect

41:46

to how they're ultimately going to perform.

41:49

So for people who do pick up

41:51

the book, look at those and great

41:53

great questions. Yeah and it really helps I

41:55

think with those questions like so just

41:57

for everybody but as you're going to

41:59

be and be getting your copy, you're

42:01

gonna go find this chapter here. As

42:03

I said, there's lots of great questions

42:05

there, but it has the question, it

42:07

has kind of the explanation as to

42:10

why you would be asking this question

42:12

and then what you're looking for in

42:14

the answer. And so some of them

42:16

also having multiple choice versus saying, you

42:18

know, are you very good delegator?

42:20

Are you good at delegating? Which is

42:22

like, who's gonna say no, right?

42:24

Like, yes, I love

42:26

delegating. It's

42:29

to actually kind of get into the

42:31

moment. So there's some, you know, saying, why

42:33

are we asking where it's

42:35

the like pressure test on

42:38

some of these where things could go

42:40

wrong that you can help to identify

42:42

that someone might not willingly, you know,

42:44

be putting out there because they don't

42:46

necessarily know. And it's just to help

42:48

get people away from saying the answer

42:50

that they think you want to hear

42:52

because they're trying to get a job,

42:54

right? But you want to understand more

42:57

about, like you said, those innate talents.

42:59

And also, I think, you know,

43:01

it was really surprising for me

43:03

in reading this that I don't

43:05

think enough. And I'm sure you've

43:07

come across this so much more. But it's

43:09

just don't think enough

43:11

about how the question

43:14

and the answer they're going to give ties back to

43:16

the performance, you know, what is it I want

43:18

them to do in this role? What is the most

43:20

important thing that we're going to get, you know,

43:22

here on the brainy business, we always talk about, you

43:24

know, with behavioral science being, you know, what do

43:26

you want someone to do? What are they doing now?

43:28

How are we going to get them there? What

43:30

are these kind of points and indicators? And I think

43:32

it translates in this way of like, what's

43:35

going to be most successful in the job role?

43:37

We need people to be really good at

43:39

these three things. And we've seen maybe, you

43:41

know, this type of response is not great.

43:43

We don't want people that are like

43:45

you said in the, you know, great relationships

43:48

is important. But if you don't close

43:50

deals, it's that's a lot of time when

43:52

you were giving that response, Sarah. And

43:54

I was thinking about the person who is

43:56

like best friends with all their clients,

43:58

and they've shared their phone number. and they

44:00

know their kids and where they're going

44:02

on the weekend and what they're doing,

44:04

you know, like, that sounds like a

44:06

lot of time being spent

44:08

on things that aren't necessarily moving that

44:10

needle, right? When you stop and think

44:12

about it. And so understanding, you

44:14

know, there's a balance to that. But if

44:16

they're not closing a deal, then

44:19

they're not doing the job, right?

44:21

So thinking about those things

44:24

in advance, and we can know

44:26

what we don't want in answer. And if

44:28

someone does say that, right, they say the thing

44:30

about having good relationships, okay, good. Relationships are

44:32

good. And like, how about closing deals, right? We

44:34

know we have a follow up question or

44:36

something to ask to get to things that really

44:38

matter, you know, for us in that

44:40

role. Love it. Perfect.

44:43

Well, as we go to close out any

44:46

last thoughts, in addition to, you know, for everyone

44:48

who wants to is now so excited to

44:50

find you and learn more, you know, where should

44:52

they go? Well, they should

44:54

go to Amazon and buy the

44:56

book. That will help them.

44:58

And then if they go to

45:00

www .conshi .com, that'll get to

45:02

the website. It'll tell you more

45:04

about our approach and what

45:06

we do. So those are the

45:08

two sources of information. And

45:10

then followers on LinkedIn, we are

45:13

fairly regular posters on LinkedIn.

45:15

We cut through a lot of

45:17

nonsense that we see on

45:19

LinkedIn. So we often point out

45:21

some of the silliness that

45:23

goes on there. So

45:25

if you want to, you know, keep sharp

45:27

and up to date on the stuff

45:29

that we pay attention to, then we're both

45:31

on LinkedIn followers there. Perfect.

45:34

And we'll have links, of course, for all

45:36

that and the show notes to make

45:38

it easy for everyone to find you to

45:40

get their copy of the book and

45:42

to start evaluating themselves and their teams and

45:44

hiring for the right talents. So, you

45:46

know, just thank you so much again for

45:48

your books and your, for your book,

45:50

your insights are for joining me on the

45:53

show. It's been really delightful to chat

45:55

with you both today. Thank you,

45:57

Melina. Appreciate you. Pleasure talking

45:59

to you. Thank you. Thank

46:01

you again to Barry and Sarah

46:04

for joining me on the show

46:06

today. What got your brain buzzing

46:08

in today's conversation? For me, I

46:10

always appreciate when people have large

46:12

data sets and have really invested

46:14

in finding answers to their most

46:16

burning questions. Researching nearly

46:19

60 ,000 liters is no easy

46:21

feat, and I really like their

46:23

approach to find the best of

46:25

the best with very stringent criteria

46:27

so they could closely look at

46:29

everything these leaders might have in

46:31

common or not to help understand

46:33

the traits and characteristics

46:35

that truly determine high performance

46:37

leadership. As a

46:39

reminder, the five evidence -based talent

46:41

dimensions they uncovered in their

46:43

research are setting direction, high

46:46

performing leaders guide their organizations

46:48

through complex situations and articulate

46:50

that value in a way

46:52

so many employees find motivational

46:54

and engaging. Next

46:57

is building energy. Driven by

46:59

a burning work ethic, talented

47:01

leaders set an exacting example.

47:03

They measure progress and recognize

47:05

that the most talented employees

47:07

beneath them demand their greatest

47:10

attention and support. Third

47:12

is exerting pressure. Talented leaders

47:14

assert a clear point

47:16

of view and persuasively drive

47:18

change and improvement, never

47:20

settling for average outcomes. Fourth

47:24

is increasing connectivity. Outstanding

47:26

leaders prioritize people, establishing

47:28

effective followership through purposeful

47:30

and ethical behavior and

47:32

demonstrating care and concern

47:34

for those they lead.

47:36

And finally, we have

47:38

controlling traffic. High performing

47:40

leaders understand their organizations,

47:42

driving superior performance by

47:44

establishing protocols and guardrails

47:46

while showing agility and

47:48

flexibility when circumstances change. And

47:51

while, as Barry said,

47:53

they've yet to find

47:55

someone who excels in

47:57

all five talents, the

47:59

best leaders have several

48:01

of these five. And

48:03

if you're curious... your own talents.

48:06

The final chapter of the book is called

48:08

Are You An Exceptional Leader and has resources

48:10

for you to see how you stack up

48:12

in these five talent dimensions. There is of

48:14

course a link to get your copy of

48:16

the book, the five talents that really matter,

48:18

along with links to my other top related

48:20

episodes and books, ways to get in touch

48:22

with Barry, Sarah and myself, and more in

48:24

the show notes for the episode. It's all

48:26

waiting for you in the app you're listening

48:29

to and at the brainy business.com slash 473.

48:31

And thank you again to Barry and

48:33

Sarah for joining me on the

48:35

show today. It was a delight

48:37

to chat with and learn from

48:39

you. Join me Tuesday for another

48:41

brainy episode of the brainy business

48:44

podcast. It's going to be a

48:46

lot of fun. You don't want

48:48

to miss it. Until then, thanks

48:50

again for listening and learning with

48:52

me. And remember to be thoughtful.

48:57

Thank you for listening to

48:59

the Braney Business podcast. Molina

49:02

offers virtual strategy sessions, workshops,

49:04

and other services to help

49:06

businesses be more brain-friendly. For

49:08

more free resources, visit the

49:11

Braney Business.com.