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best policy. my

0:49

family targeted in our homes. quite

0:51

early one morning, I think it's

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about five in the morning. My

0:56

wife says to me, our former

0:58

homeless here, our old house got

1:00

here. And, you know, she's showing

1:03

me this footage, basically showing this

1:05

kind of inferno right in front

1:07

of our old house. And then

1:09

a car in the driveway, the

1:11

adjoining property, they dawbbed it with

1:13

us, you said, fuck the Jews,

1:15

on one side, fuck us, or

1:17

another, which I thought was very

1:19

poetic, which I'm not. Hello,

1:23

welcome back to the Brendan O'Neill Show

1:26

with me, Brendan O'Neill and my special

1:28

guest this week, Alex Rifchen. Alex, welcome

1:30

to the show. Thank you so much.

1:33

Great to chat to you again, Brendan.

1:35

So good to have you on.

1:37

As you know, I've been an

1:39

admirer of your campaigning for a

1:41

long time and some listeners will

1:43

know that you are co-ce CEO

1:45

of the Executive Council of Australian

1:47

Jury, which means that you spend

1:49

your time advocating on behalf of

1:51

Australia's... 120,000 Jews and that means

1:53

that over the past 16 or 17

1:56

months you've found yourself

1:58

at the frontline of

2:00

a really sometimes quite ugly battle

2:02

because Australia like other Western countries

2:04

has found itself in the grip

2:06

of a kind of Israelophobia and

2:09

outright anti-Semitism since the events of

2:11

7th of October 2023. So to

2:13

kick us off I guess I

2:15

just want to ask you about

2:18

how bad things have got in

2:20

Australia, what is it like to

2:22

be a Jew in Australia right

2:25

now? Well, the very first thing I

2:27

can say read in is that the

2:29

admiration is very mutual. I've been reading

2:31

this stuff as long as I can

2:33

remember and you've truly made a

2:35

profound contribution to this space in

2:37

Australia as well. You've got a

2:39

great audience and following here. So

2:42

I truly thank you for everything

2:44

you've done. In terms of the

2:46

cooperation in Australia and what it's

2:48

like to be a Jew, there's kind

2:50

of two realities. One is the everyday

2:53

you know normality of being a

2:55

Jew and if you would have

2:57

come visit us in Sydney you'd

2:59

see that Jewish life continues as

3:01

normal. Synagogue attendance has never been

3:03

greater, participation in commune organizations has

3:05

never been higher. When at last Harakah

3:07

we had you know public writings of

3:09

the Menoras we do each year there

3:12

were record attendance as so these sorts

3:14

of things which would kind of test

3:16

the, you know, take the pulse of

3:18

the Jewish community show, weren't good health

3:20

and good spirits. But there's a

3:22

second reality to it, and I think

3:24

all the good stuff has come as

3:26

a reaction to the bad. It's almost

3:28

an act of defiance. We've needed the

3:31

anti-Semitism to make people appreciate

3:33

their Jewishness and also seek the

3:35

company of other Jews. And I

3:37

think there's something beautiful in that,

3:39

but also something, you know, quite

3:41

sad in the fact that we do feel...

3:43

like we're kind of estranged from

3:45

wider society and we do feel

3:47

more comfortable, more safe if you

3:49

will in the company and presence

3:51

of other Jews because we've seen

3:53

not only the large scale attacks

3:55

that have been reported globally but a

3:58

lot of kind of silent boycotts. of

4:00

Jews being pushed out of

4:02

certain industries, particularly the credit

4:04

industries. You know, when you

4:06

see your favorite restaurant, post

4:08

on the social media, really

4:10

ugly things about Israel, you know,

4:12

you feel you don't want to go

4:14

there. And so the Jewish community is

4:17

feeling that way. But there's a degree

4:19

of terror running through the community as

4:21

well, because we've seen things in

4:23

this country that last 16 months.

4:26

that we never thought we'd see. You know,

4:28

when you have fire bombings as the fact

4:30

of life, like rains related, anti-ting, fire bombings,

4:32

and now a normal thing in Australia,

4:34

no one is shot by them. It's

4:37

just a question of what the next

4:39

target is going to be. You know, when you

4:41

see a synagogue virtually burned to the ground

4:43

and a child care center fire bombed in

4:45

people's homes and, you know, you wake up

4:48

and you see cars dawed with... fuck Israel

4:50

and fuck the Jews and these sorts of

4:52

things and you know it's a horrible thing

4:54

to have to encounter and people are concerned

4:56

about the safety of their children. people

4:58

are having conversations about their future

5:00

in this country. So there's a

5:02

kind of duality to being Jewish.

5:04

You know, the resurgence of pride

5:07

is manifesting people getting tattoos of

5:09

stars of David, which isn't really

5:11

Jewish custom, but people are determined

5:13

to show that they won't be

5:15

cow by what's happening. But at

5:17

the same time, I think inside

5:19

people are feeling quite fearful and they're

5:21

feeling let down by society. That's

5:24

a really useful outline of both

5:26

the... seriousness of the anti-Semitism problem

5:28

in Australia right now, but also the

5:30

defiance with which many Jews are greeting

5:32

it and treating it. And I think

5:35

that's that's something I want to ask

5:37

you about. And I want to dig

5:39

down into some of the incidents that

5:41

you mentioned there, which have made global

5:43

waves. I mean, the attacks on synagogues,

5:46

the attacks on the daycare centre, the

5:48

incident outside the Sydney Opera House on

5:50

the 9th of October 2023, when people

5:52

chanted, fuck the Jews and... possibly

5:54

even gas the Jews. I want to talk to

5:57

you about that stuff, but I first want to

5:59

just ask you if I'm being naive

6:01

because I always had this impression

6:03

it's a known fact that Europe

6:06

has a long historical problem with

6:08

anti-Semitism going back centuries and centuries

6:10

and that history is very well

6:13

known. There's always been an undertone

6:15

of anti-Semitism in the United States

6:17

in various different ways different to

6:19

the European experience but it has

6:22

been there. I guess I imagined

6:24

that in a country like Australia

6:26

which is you know the lucky country

6:29

a country in which people kind of

6:31

muck along pretty well most of the

6:33

time. I thought that maybe anti-Semitism and

6:35

the problems we've seen over the past

6:38

16, 17 months in particular, that it

6:40

wouldn't impact there as much as it

6:42

does in other parts of the world.

6:44

So historically what has it been like

6:47

for Jews in Australia? Have there been

6:49

periods like this before or is

6:51

this something new? This is very

6:53

much new. And as you've laid

6:55

out there, the Jewish experience in

6:58

Australia has always been fairly tranquil

7:00

and uneventful. I mean, we

7:02

started in this country, I think

7:05

we're probably the only community anywhere

7:07

in the world that can point

7:09

the day that our existence began

7:11

in a particular country. We were

7:13

on the first fleet that came from

7:15

the mother country. There were... some

7:18

say eight some say 14 Jewish

7:20

convicts that came from predominantly London's

7:22

east end and from that time

7:24

Jews have settled in Australia you

7:27

had those initial waves of convicts

7:29

and then free settlers from

7:31

from England and from the

7:33

empire then post-war you had

7:35

Holocaust survivors coming and Australia

7:38

has per capita the highest number

7:40

of Holocaust survivors. other than in Israel.

7:42

You had in the 70s and 80s

7:45

and early 90s another wave of Jewish

7:47

migration during which time my family came

7:49

out fleeing the Soviet Union. You had

7:52

a lot of South African Jews coming.

7:54

So we very much contributed to the

7:56

kind of melting pot that is Australia

7:59

and Australia multiculturalism. And this is

8:01

a country where there have never

8:03

been anti-Semitic laws. This is a

8:05

country where some of the most

8:07

revered figures in Australia and Australian

8:10

culture, our greatest ever soldier,

8:12

as regarded as Sir John

8:14

Monash, who was a Jew,

8:16

and found a designer consideration

8:18

in this country. The first

8:20

Australian-born government general was Sirius

8:22

Akaius, the Jew. And all the

8:25

way through, when you look at the

8:27

arts and business and the professions, an academia

8:29

and sciences, there's so

8:31

much Jewish contribution. And

8:33

the extent of anti-Semitism

8:36

would be the sort of stuff

8:38

that I encountered growing up, which

8:40

is schoolyard nonsense, which people go

8:42

out of. But in terms of

8:44

like organized movements that, you know,

8:46

profess anti-Semitism, it hasn't been there,

8:49

but at the same time, all

8:51

of the same kind of trans

8:53

cultural and political that you

8:55

see in Europe in the United

8:57

States exist here. There is a

8:59

neo-Nazi movement in this country and

9:01

there has been, you know, there have

9:04

been whole cosmonizing this country. When

9:06

ISIS became a fact of life,

9:08

there were about 200 Australians that

9:10

traveled from, mainly from Sydney from

9:12

the Western suburbs to fight in

9:15

Iraq and Syria with ISIS. So

9:17

we've had that issue as well.

9:19

You know, there's far-left ideology in this

9:22

country, we have a political party,

9:24

the Greens, which gets about 10%

9:26

of the national vote, and that

9:29

is increasingly becoming a hard-left,

9:31

you know, near Marxist party, with

9:33

all the ideology that that

9:35

entails, including anti-Western, anti-capitalist, and

9:37

of course, anti-Jewish is wrapped

9:39

up in all that. So,

9:42

it's there. But because of that kind

9:44

of benign history, we never thought we

9:46

could see it with the sort of

9:48

intensity that we've seen. And we believe

9:50

that if there were spurts of

9:53

anti-Semitism, that there would be quickly

9:55

shut down through a kind of national

9:57

movement of solidarity and support.

10:00

and very clear political leadership

10:02

to stamp it out. And that hasn't

10:04

happened. There's been a lot of good

10:06

intention on the part of some politicians, less

10:08

on the part of others, but things

10:10

have been allowed to fester. And you

10:12

mentioned some of the incidents, and no

10:15

doubt we'll speak about them and go

10:17

to length of what happened at the

10:19

Opera House, and things have just very

10:21

clearly progressed. You know, you can plot

10:23

it on a chart from the chance. to

10:25

increasing support for terrorism in a

10:27

very brazen way, and then to

10:30

the fire bombings and the physical

10:32

violence that we're saying. So on

10:34

the one hand, it's shocking. On

10:36

the other hand, it's so completely

10:39

predictable for those who know Jewish

10:41

history and who know how quickly

10:43

things can slide and how a

10:45

small number of people in a

10:48

society, if not confronted firmly and

10:50

quickly, can cause immense damage in

10:52

home. the way you describe the

10:54

history of the Jews in Australia

10:56

there makes the current climate all

10:58

the more tragic because you know

11:01

you think about the fact that

11:03

Jews in Australia have had a

11:05

better time than Jews in Europe by

11:07

a long margin and then still

11:09

you know over the past 16 or

11:11

17 months you have this outburst.

11:13

So let's talk about some of the

11:16

stuff that's been happening. I think it's

11:18

important for listeners to know that you

11:20

are not only campaign in against

11:22

the anti-Semitic outbursts that we've

11:25

seen in Australia and other parts of

11:27

the world since Hamas's pogrom with 7th

11:29

of October, but you've also been the

11:31

target of this. So I want to

11:33

start off by asking you about the

11:36

event that took place at your former

11:38

home a few weeks ago where the

11:40

house that you used to live in

11:42

with your wife and your three kids

11:45

was attacked and it was attacked by...

11:47

anti-Semites. So I believe they

11:50

set a fire outside your former

11:52

home. They wrote fuck Jews on

11:54

a car near to your former

11:57

house. Just explain to us what

11:59

happened. there and what it felt like

12:01

for you and your family to know

12:03

that you were presumably the

12:06

target of that attack even though

12:08

you no longer live in that

12:10

place. Yeah so the label kind

12:12

of transpired my wife and I were

12:14

working up quite early one morning I

12:16

think is about five in the morning

12:19

and my wife says to me our

12:21

former homeless you know old house got

12:23

here and She's showing me this

12:25

footage which was taken by our

12:27

old neighbors across the street who

12:29

were very, you know, very warm

12:31

and familiar with, basically showing this

12:33

kind of inferno right in front

12:36

of our old house. And you

12:38

can see red paint splashed all

12:40

over the facade. It's a semi-detached

12:42

house where we lived for five

12:44

years. It was a really beloved family

12:46

home, you know, like I have a

12:48

lot of fond memories from that place.

12:50

It's when we bought it up or

12:52

we'd be there forever. And actually, finally enough,

12:55

I gave an interview to the Wall Street

12:57

Journal a few weeks ago about the incident.

12:59

And the journal's asked me a very curious

13:01

question. He said, why did you buy that house

13:03

when you bought that house? Well, that's an old

13:05

question. Why does anyone buy a house? But it

13:07

compelled me to actually reminisce and kind of think

13:09

about why I did buy it. And there was

13:11

a very specific reason why I bought that house.

13:13

We bought that house. It was the only house

13:15

we looked at. It was because when we first

13:17

migratedated to Australia to Australia to Australia

13:19

to Australia to Australia to Australia from

13:22

the Soviet Union. My grandfather, who had

13:24

been engineer in Kiev and couldn't

13:26

find work because he had health

13:28

issues, he couldn't speak English. The

13:30

only kind of useful thing he

13:32

could do was he drove a

13:34

bus for a Jewish social problem.

13:36

of Holocaust survivors and he would pick them up

13:38

and drive them to the club and the club

13:41

would give him five dollars a day as kind

13:43

of lunch money and he would bring it

13:45

home as wages because that's all he was

13:47

able to earn at that time and I would

13:49

go with him before after school and I

13:51

would sit in the buses who would pick

13:53

these people up and we would drive up

13:56

and down this road called military road

13:58

which is this beautiful long winding road

14:00

in eastern suburbs of Sydney. And on one

14:02

side of it, you can see views of

14:04

Sydney Harbour, on the other side, you got

14:06

the Pacific Ocean, and it winds all the

14:08

way down on our beach. And we will

14:10

drive up and down that road. And I

14:12

just remember my grandfather how he would look

14:14

at that road and look at the houses. And

14:17

to him, it was like a utopia. It

14:19

was everything that he knew he personally

14:21

would never have. but that he thought

14:23

that he could create and enable

14:25

me and my now late brother

14:27

to have this free people free

14:30

from discrimination in Australia. And so we

14:32

went in looking really, but that I saw

14:34

a house on that street, I think I

14:36

was jogging one day and saw it and

14:38

two weeks later we signed a contract

14:41

and we bought it. So the house

14:43

represented a great deal to me. You know,

14:45

not merely a place to live, but

14:48

something far greater, had a lot of

14:50

meaning. And so I'm watching the

14:52

surveillance footage of this kind

14:54

of inferno and fund and then

14:56

more CCTV footage came out and

14:58

you can see this car pulling

15:00

up, two guys get out, they

15:02

have a can of petrol which they

15:04

pour like a fuse across the

15:06

whip of the street going from

15:08

one side to be out on

15:10

leading up to cars apart from

15:13

the driveway of my old house and

15:15

then they light it and these cars

15:17

just ignite. And then a car in

15:19

the driveway, the joining property, which was

15:21

owned by, still owned by, a Jewish

15:24

couple of my 80s, it would be

15:26

like 50 years. They dawbed it with

15:28

us. You said, fuck the Jews on

15:30

one side, fuck his wrong mother, which

15:32

I thought was very poetic because it's

15:35

like two sides of the same coin, two

15:37

sides of the same car. And yeah, and

15:39

it was a terrible thing. But in

15:41

terms of how it impacted me,

15:43

to be honest. I don't think I

15:45

fully even processed it because it

15:48

came in a period of really intense

15:50

work so the day before

15:52

my wife and I and kids

15:54

we've been in Brisbane for a

15:56

much needed long awaited holiday but

15:58

the whole time I spent in TV

16:01

studios and giving press conferences in the

16:03

park because there had been other attacks

16:05

on Jewish synagogues and the C's five

16:07

engineers run Hamas. That was just full,

16:09

full on work. And then we landed

16:11

back in Sydney. The next morning this

16:13

happens and then 6 a.m. the following

16:16

morning I'm going to fly to Poland for

16:18

events to do with the 80th anniversary

16:20

of the liberation of Auschwitz. So it's

16:22

all been so happy that I really

16:24

paused to really think about it and

16:26

the safety of my family. I really

16:29

think treated it as another anti-Semitic incident.

16:31

I don't think I've fully grasped

16:33

how personal this is and what

16:35

it means. And I'm not a person

16:37

who really frets about security.

16:39

People ask me about it all the time,

16:41

but I don't really think about it.

16:43

But, you know, when I do

16:45

pause and contemplate it, it's obviously a

16:48

horrible thing to know that, you know,

16:50

that I was targeted and my family

16:52

were targeted in our homes. You

16:54

know, in a... residential street where the houses

16:56

are close to each other where a fire

16:58

of that scale was lit and could

17:00

have incinerated people in their beds. You know,

17:03

that's what could have happened. So this is

17:05

the reality of life in Australia right

17:07

now. You know, everything seems placid and

17:09

calm but really beneath the surface is

17:11

anything about that. Hi, it's Brendan

17:14

here. I have some exciting news

17:16

to share with you. This year,

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So as we mark Spike's 25th birthday,

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years. Now on with the

18:50

show. You know hearing you

18:52

talk about it is really interesting

18:54

and I think very important as

18:56

well and I guess this might

18:58

not be a nice question but

19:00

I wonder if you've thought about

19:03

What do you think was the

19:05

aim of this attack was? Do

19:07

you think it was to harm

19:09

you, to physically harm you and your family

19:11

because these people might have mistakenly thought

19:13

that you still lived in this house?

19:15

Or was it to send you a

19:17

message? Was it to try to silence

19:19

you, which I guess might serve as a

19:21

testament to the brilliant work that you've

19:23

been doing since 7th of October, 2023?

19:26

What do you think was the aim

19:28

of this attack? What do you think

19:30

they were trying to achieve with this

19:32

anti-Semitic? barbarism that they visited on

19:34

your former home? You know, I haven't

19:36

actually thought about that. I really haven't

19:39

stopped to think about what the precise

19:41

motivation was and what they're hoping to

19:43

achieve. I guess we won't really know that

19:45

until I mean, just in the last 24

19:47

hours, they've arrested a couple of guys in

19:50

connection with this as potential accessories. So

19:52

hopefully the investigation will, you

19:54

know, identify whether because there's

19:56

speculation that this is all

19:59

essentially coordinated. from abroad. So

20:01

we'll see what the motivation is. Look,

20:03

it could be any number of things.

20:05

I mean, over the years, there have

20:07

been reports about the

20:09

Iranian regime targeting Jewish

20:11

leaders abroad. That could certainly

20:14

be something, you know, there's

20:16

always concerns about Iranian cells

20:19

and Hezbollah operatives in Western

20:21

countries. That's really a fact

20:23

of life. It could have been, you know,

20:26

I don't know, it's difficult to determine

20:28

whether they wanted to physically harm

20:30

us, whether they knew that I'd

20:32

moved on from that house, whether

20:34

they thought or as to live there,

20:36

whether it was to send a warning

20:38

to silence me, to silence the community,

20:40

to make this fearful, to make this

20:43

stop speaking out. You know, I have

20:45

been extremely visible and vocal since

20:48

October 7, particularly since October

20:50

7, and not ever likes what I have to

20:52

say. And I've obviously attracted a lot

20:54

of people who despise me, despise what

20:57

I stand for, and despise the things

20:59

that I say and believe. But I

21:01

speak every word that I say, I believe.

21:03

And if people don't write what I have to

21:05

say, then I'm not concerned. I

21:07

know I have the overwhelming support,

21:09

certainly the Jewish community. There's no

21:12

question about that, but also the

21:14

vast majority of Australians who just

21:16

want to live peaceful in this country.

21:19

and abhor extremism and Islamism

21:21

and far left ideology

21:23

and terrorism and don't

21:25

want any of this nonsense in

21:27

our country and you know if their

21:29

attempt was to silence me they failed

21:31

Disney I can tell you that. Yeah

21:33

absolutely and you have

21:36

been very visible since 7th of

21:38

October and before it of course

21:40

and I think you've you've played

21:42

an incredibly important role in

21:45

reminding people of the values of

21:47

Australia and the values of the

21:49

West more broadly against these mobs

21:51

who have risen up against the

21:54

Jews and and who are expressing

21:56

this extreme hostility towards Israel. I

21:58

want to take you back to the first

22:01

incident that made me think,

22:03

oh God, it's happening in Australia

22:05

as well, which is what

22:07

happened outside the Sydney Opera

22:09

House on the 9th of

22:11

October, you know, I think

22:13

less than 48 hours after

22:16

Hamas's pogrom. And what there

22:18

was a gathering of about

22:20

a thousand people, so-called pro-

22:22

Palestine activists, there were radical

22:24

Islamists there, various groups of

22:26

people, and they chanted... fuck

22:28

the Jews, there is some

22:30

suspicion that they also said gas

22:32

the Jews, but other people are saying

22:35

they said where are the Jews. You

22:37

know I'm an old-fashioned person who thinks

22:39

that any menacing chant about the

22:41

Jews is a bad thing to

22:43

do regardless of what the actual

22:46

content is. But that event sent

22:48

shockwaves around the world. I

22:50

mean we saw something similar in

22:52

London where there was gathering outside

22:54

the Israeli embassy. on 9th of

22:57

October as well and it was

22:59

essentially a celebration of what Hamas

23:01

had done. People were playing pop

23:03

music, they were dancing, they were

23:05

waving the Palestine flag, it was

23:08

a celebration of the Pogrom. And

23:10

we saw similar incidents in the

23:12

US as well where very early

23:14

on before Israel had even properly

23:17

responded to Hamas's attack, people were

23:19

essentially celebrating Hamas's evil deeds. But

23:21

to see it outside the Sydney

23:23

Opera House at Sydney Harbour. what

23:26

I've always considered one of the

23:28

most beautiful and civilized places in the

23:30

world, that felt genuinely shocking. And

23:32

for you, and I guess for

23:34

the Jewish community in Australia, was

23:36

that an early sign, do you

23:38

think, of how bad things could

23:40

potentially get in the aftermath of

23:42

7th of October? Yeah, it really

23:44

was. And it revealed so many

23:46

elements of what was to come,

23:48

but actually... There was an incident before

23:51

even what happened at the Opera House

23:53

steps on October 9th that showed us

23:55

that things get really nasty. So the

23:57

previous day, October 8th hour time, where

24:00

the full news of what had

24:02

transpired in Israel hadn't even really

24:04

come out when Hamas was still

24:06

in southern Israel and some of

24:08

the key would seem bad. But

24:11

it was known that something horrendous

24:13

and unprecedented had happened. Mass slaughter,

24:15

you know, we'd seen the footage

24:17

of, you know, the Bibus family, we'd

24:19

seen the footage of Shani book

24:22

and her broken body being paraded

24:24

through the streets of Gaza as

24:26

people spotted her and hit her

24:28

with sticks. We saw images of

24:31

Nam 11 being dragged by her

24:33

hair in her bloody tracky pants

24:35

into captivity. We'd seen this, we'd

24:37

seen images of a tired worker

24:40

getting his head locked off with

24:42

a shovel and a gathering to

24:44

a place in West Sydney, about

24:46

half an hour from where I'm

24:48

sitting down the western suburbs of

24:51

Sydney, where a shake a preacher

24:53

took to the streets and a

24:55

mob they're gathered. And he chanted

24:57

it and he screamed with great

25:00

elation and this kind of real

25:02

sense of frenzy about how this is a

25:04

day of joy, this is a day of

25:06

pride, today I'm happy. And the mob chanced

25:08

back all up at every point

25:11

and convoys of cars drove through

25:13

the streets of West Sydney letting

25:15

off fireworks and this was the

25:17

greatest day of their lives. And you

25:19

know, when you look later at the

25:22

footage and I've seen very little

25:24

of it, it's too horrendous to

25:26

watch the body camp footage from

25:28

Hamas. That's the thing that really

25:30

struck me about all other things.

25:32

The fact that they were in

25:34

this frenzy, adulation and joy, this day

25:36

of rape and killing and looting

25:39

and destruction, just pure destruction,

25:41

was the greatest thing that

25:43

ever experienced. And that was the

25:45

mood in West Sydney on that

25:47

day. And so the following day,

25:50

as you described, Brendan, there

25:52

was a gathering of pro-Palestinian

25:54

gathering there and a part of

25:56

it kind of peeled off and you

25:58

had probably 50 or

26:00

so, maybe 100 youths, heads covered,

26:02

faces covered, so they couldn't

26:05

be identified, and they were

26:07

chanting these things. And the things

26:09

that ensued from that really showed

26:11

us that we're in some trouble here,

26:14

because again, it was such an outrage

26:16

for it to occur at all, and

26:18

to occur at the opera house, which

26:20

was a national disgrace broadcast throughout the

26:23

world. And we thought that it would

26:25

stop there, but several things happened which

26:27

showed us that things are going to

26:30

get really nasty. The first thing was

26:32

the police who don't write this stuff,

26:34

don't want this stuff, but didn't really

26:36

know. They were kind of paralyzed. They didn't

26:38

know what to do. And one Jew had

26:41

defied police and government recommendations to

26:43

not go anywhere near the area, which

26:45

in itself is a travesty. The fact

26:47

the Jews were locked out of our

26:49

own CDD area and told not to go

26:51

there when a mob was rampant. They controlled

26:54

the area, but the Jews couldn't go there.

26:56

And one Jew went there with an Israeli

26:58

flag, and he was quickly detained and hauled

27:01

away. And from a policing point of

27:03

view, I understand why, because when you

27:05

have a mob like that, anything can happen.

27:07

And it's easy to remove the one Jew

27:09

who will be the victim of the mob

27:12

rather than the mob itself. But it also

27:14

sent a signal that the mob will be

27:16

left alone, that they're entitled to do

27:18

what they're doing. And the second

27:20

thing already disturbed me. about that whole

27:22

incident was you slowed about the

27:24

things that were chanted. So

27:27

originally it was reported that

27:29

they were chanting gas the Jews.

27:31

Other things, you know, they were

27:33

definitely chanting, F the Jews, no

27:35

one questioned that. They were chanting

27:37

the medieval battle cry of Kiva

27:39

Kiva Jews, the armies of Muhammad

27:41

are coming. So you can chant

27:43

the battle fires, which mean killing

27:46

Jews. You can chant, F the Jews.

27:48

part of the press, the activist

27:50

hard left press, got bogged down

27:52

deliberately on whether gas the

27:54

juice was actually chanted. And the reason

27:56

why they did that was it was a

27:58

way to sow down. to say that

28:01

don't trust the claims of the

28:03

Jewish community by anti-Semitism, they're misleading

28:05

them, they're deceiving me. And

28:07

ever since that time... Every time there's

28:10

been an attack, including the attack

28:12

on my former home, you see,

28:14

and even from relatively mainstream characters,

28:16

talk about a false flag and

28:18

inside job, you know, the same sort of

28:20

pathology that causes people to question the

28:23

Holocaust, or to say that Israel killed

28:25

its own people on October 7 and

28:27

the whole thing was planned to justify

28:29

genocide, that same psyche is on display

28:31

all the time here in Australia. And

28:34

again, I think the starting point was

28:36

the reaction to what happened... on the

28:38

steps of the October House on October

28:40

9th. That's such an important point

28:43

because I was going to ask

28:45

you about the response to what

28:47

happened on the 9th of October

28:49

because in some ways that terrified

28:51

me even more than the event

28:53

itself. And similarly in the UK

28:55

when I saw people celebrating the

28:57

pogrom outside the Israeli embassy, That

28:59

was a horrifying image, but it

29:01

was the lack of anger about

29:03

it and the lack of commentary

29:05

about it that chilled me even

29:07

more. So when I was following

29:09

these events in Australia and I

29:11

was watching them on the news

29:14

and reading about them in the

29:16

press, the thing that really chilled

29:18

me to my bones was the

29:20

fact, you know, anti-Semites are going

29:22

to be anti-Semitic, that's a given

29:24

and it's a tragic given, but

29:26

that is what they're going to

29:28

do. They're going to gather in

29:30

public and say anti-Semiticitic things. but

29:33

the refusal, the flat-out refusal or

29:35

the unwillingness off the left and

29:37

other sections of polite society to

29:39

very loudly condemn those actions, that

29:41

was one of the most worrying things

29:43

because I think that pointed to where

29:46

things were going to go, which is

29:48

not only that we would see

29:50

a minority of vocal anti-Semites

29:52

on the streets, but also

29:54

that we would see a

29:56

betrayal of the Jews by

29:58

the opinion-forming classes. What did you

30:00

make of the response to the events

30:02

outside the Sydney Opera House? Were you, I

30:05

mean, obviously there was official condemnation

30:07

as there should be, but that

30:09

it felt like there wasn't the

30:11

kind of anger that one would

30:13

expect in response to such an

30:15

act of virulent racism against Jewish

30:17

people? Look, I think that's right. And

30:19

again, to refer to the incident the

30:21

day before on the streets of Western

30:23

Sydney. That occurred within the

30:25

electorate of a very senior

30:28

government minister who now holds

30:30

the portfolios of interestingly multiculturalism,

30:32

immigration and also home affairs.

30:35

And it took him weeks, weeks to

30:37

condemn that and under duress and

30:39

a lot of political pressure. And

30:41

again, that showed us we're not in

30:43

good shape here. We don't have a

30:45

political leadership that is strong enough to

30:48

recognize what's happening, where it's going to

30:50

go, and what they need to do. And

30:52

you also contrast that, you know,

30:54

we periodically have in this country,

30:56

it's happening more and more because

30:59

they sense the opportunity, gatherings of

31:01

out near Nazis on our streets.

31:03

And we contrast the reaction to

31:05

that with the mob at the

31:07

steps of the Opera House. And

31:09

both were obviously anti-Semitic. No reasonable

31:12

person could deny a question that.

31:14

But when it's near Nazis, no

31:16

one takes them seriously. Everyone... condemns

31:18

it with no political loss

31:21

or implications, and therefore they

31:23

are isolated and their influence

31:25

is not really able to grow

31:27

or to kind of seep into

31:30

mainstream Australia. But when a mob

31:32

subscribes not to near Nazi

31:35

ideology, but to a different ideology,

31:37

but still expresses desire to kill

31:39

Jews. and relive glory days of

31:41

the debt reduced, if not the

31:43

Holocaust, then Kaiba, whatever, as though

31:46

it's a difference, that still chances

31:48

these things about Jews. But because

31:50

it happens with a Palestinian flag

31:52

being waived, or through the prism

31:55

of Israel and some connection to

31:57

it, suddenly it's complicated, suddenly

31:59

we shouldn't take sides or there's

32:01

new ones or there's context or

32:04

there's history and it's not condemned.

32:06

And so the very clear message

32:08

that's said is that this is permissible.

32:11

This form of expression of

32:13

anti-Semitism is okay. And so

32:15

it continues and it continued

32:17

with no police implications and

32:19

no social ramifications, which I

32:21

think is probably greater. The

32:23

fact that there's no price

32:25

socially or professionally or in

32:27

one's interactions to be paid. when being

32:30

an anti-Semite, as long as you wait

32:32

for power to be in flag or

32:34

have a watermelon, suddenly it's all good,

32:36

some of your human rights

32:39

activists. Yeah, I couldn't agree more

32:41

and we've seen very similar things

32:43

in Britain and across Europe where,

32:45

you know, if white neo-Nazis take

32:47

to the streets and say racist

32:49

things and including anti-Semitic things, they

32:51

are very roundly condemned as they

32:53

should be. But if... you know,

32:55

a multicultural gathering of people waving

32:58

the Palestine flag takes to the

33:00

streets and chance for the army

33:02

of Muhammad to come back and

33:04

kill the Jews as I witnessed

33:06

with my own eyes on the

33:08

streets of London shortly after 7th

33:10

of October, that's not condemned as

33:12

loudly and in fact it's often not

33:14

condemned at all. So there is an

33:17

extraordinary double standard there. I want to

33:19

ask you about some of the other

33:21

events that we've seen in Australia over

33:23

the past few months and... It's really

33:26

quite shocking because there's been

33:28

a huge spike in anti-Semitism

33:30

in Europe, including in the

33:33

UK. In London there was

33:35

a 1,350% rise in anti-Semitic

33:37

attacks after 7th of October,

33:40

a really staggering rise in

33:42

anti-Semitic vandalism, anti-Semitic assaults, various

33:44

other acts. But I feel

33:47

like some of the events

33:49

in Australia have been worse.

33:51

I think they have been...

33:54

bigger and more terrifying even

33:56

than some of the stuff we've seen

33:58

in Britain and other other countries

34:00

in Europe. So synagogues have

34:02

been attacked in Australia, I

34:04

mean, and very seriously attacked.

34:07

So I want to ask

34:09

you about the Addas Israel

34:11

synagogue in Melbourne. Listeners will

34:14

be familiar with what happened

34:16

there because it's another incident

34:18

that made headlines around the

34:20

world. In December last year, the

34:22

end of last year, this synagogue

34:24

in Melbourne was doused with flammable

34:26

liquid and set on fire. And

34:29

when I saw that and when

34:31

I saw the ruins of what

34:33

was left behind by some of

34:35

this attack, I remember thinking

34:37

how can this be happening in

34:39

Melbourne in Australia? You know, it

34:42

almost doesn't compute. You know, if

34:44

it had happened somewhere in France

34:46

where tragically they have a pretty

34:49

serious anti-Semitism problem and have had

34:51

for a long time, it would

34:54

make a little bit more sense

34:56

even though it would be... equally

34:58

as awful, but to see it

35:01

happening in Melbourne just felt really

35:03

discombobulating. So what was that like

35:05

when the Addis Israel synagogue was

35:07

burnt with fire? How did that feel

35:09

for the Jews of Australia? And what

35:12

do you think that told us about

35:14

what's happening in Australia right now? I

35:16

mean, that was a horrible thing to

35:19

seeing this kind of, you know, burnt out

35:21

wreck of the synagogue and

35:23

smouldering holy text. And you

35:25

know, the image... you know we're always reluctant

35:27

to draw comparisons with the Nazi

35:30

era but it's an image show of

35:32

crystal naught and it's something

35:34

that just doesn't happen really

35:36

anywhere in the civilized world like

35:38

the notion of actually trying to

35:40

burn down a place of worship

35:42

a place where people come together

35:44

to say prayers solemnly quietly to

35:47

celebrate holy days to say the

35:49

mourners cottage for loved ones and for

35:51

people to think I'm going to burn

35:53

that place down you know like it's

35:55

just a crazy ideology that would compel

35:58

someone to do this thing and And

36:00

this was a synagogue built by

36:02

survivors of the Holocaust

36:04

post-war who settled in Melbourne.

36:07

It's an ultra-orthodox sect

36:09

of Judaism that these

36:11

guys largely keep to

36:13

themselves and you know, and this

36:15

kind of happened, but this

36:18

was seen really as a

36:20

watershed moment in Australian history,

36:22

I think, because prior that

36:24

people were able to say. You know,

36:26

it's the importation of foreign hatreds,

36:28

it's Jews versus Arabs, it's all

36:30

to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict

36:32

and all that, and it doesn't

36:34

concern us. Australians overwhelmingly, and

36:37

polling shows this consistently, they don't

36:39

like being entangled in foreign conflicts,

36:41

they don't like foreign agreements as

36:43

being brought here. As you've spoken about

36:46

Brennan, and it's true, you know, Australians

36:48

are a kind of laconic, easy-going people,

36:50

where blessed people, because we live in

36:52

a wonderful country in every respect. And

36:55

we want to keep it that way. And

36:57

we know that by importing these these conflicts,

36:59

it's going to destabilize things. People don't like

37:01

that. But when they see synagogue burning, I

37:03

think that was something that really shocked the

37:06

country. And it showed them the level of

37:08

hatred that existed or that existed

37:10

in our society, that people would actually

37:12

bring themselves to do such a thing.

37:14

But you know it was kind of

37:16

bookended by other attacks and it's now

37:18

become normal. It's now the media rabbles

37:21

off the anti-Semitic incidents and it's just

37:23

one of men and there have been

37:25

others that have really shocked. I mean

37:27

the one on my fallen home I

37:29

think shocked the country as well and

37:31

made big news to have a home

37:33

attacked and an individual attacked in that

37:36

way a couple of days after that

37:38

incident there was the burning almost the

37:40

ground of a childcare center near a

37:42

new synagogue and again like The news broadcasts

37:45

these images of Australian

37:47

families, most than not Jewish,

37:49

you know, including in Hijabs and

37:51

Asian Australians, coming to their childcare

37:53

center the following day and seeing

37:56

it incinerated and seeing what

37:58

the Jews again, that familiar... here

38:00

phrase dawp on the walls. And these

38:02

are things that have really I think

38:04

shaped the country to its core. And

38:07

if one positive thing has come from

38:09

these incidents, and obviously there's nothing

38:11

positive to be seen here, but

38:14

if the Opera House incident didn't shake

38:16

it straight to its core and show

38:18

them what was at stake and what

38:20

was going to happen, I think people

38:23

now see that very clearly. And I

38:25

think there's been a realization that, you

38:27

know, what's happening here. It should have

38:29

been enough that the Jews were being

38:31

targeted. It should have been enough that

38:34

Australians stand up and

38:36

say Jewish Australians are Australians

38:38

and we're not going to have this

38:40

happen to them. But now it clearly

38:42

shows that this is something that affects

38:44

all Australians, that this is a national

38:47

problem that we all have

38:49

the responsibility to combat. Yeah, absolutely.

38:51

When I was in Australia last

38:53

year I had the privilege of

38:55

speaking at the Caulfield Shull Synagogue

38:57

in Melbourne and It was just

38:59

so interesting to speak to

39:02

people there, the Jews who came

39:04

to that event and who wanted

39:06

to speak about their experiences and

39:09

how they felt about what was

39:11

happening in Australia. And the message

39:13

I got was that exactly as

39:16

you've just outlined, which is

39:18

this feeling that things are going

39:20

off the rails and have been

39:22

since 7th of October 2023, but

39:24

also mingled with the feeling that

39:26

Australia is a great country and

39:28

Australia is a country in which

39:30

these kinds of events ought to

39:33

be alien and were alien for

39:35

a very long time. So has

39:37

it felt incredibly jarring to to

39:39

experience these kind of things? You

39:41

know, I guess because in Australia

39:43

there have been attacks on the

39:45

synagogues, we talked about the Addis

39:47

Israel synagogue in Melbourne which was

39:49

which was burnt down. Swash stickers

39:51

have been painted on synagogues in

39:53

Australia. We talked about the attack

39:55

on your home of course and

39:57

the daycare centre in Sydney which

39:59

was daubed with graffiti and attacked

40:01

as well. I mean these are

40:03

very serious racist crimes, the kind

40:05

that would be shocking even if

40:07

they were to happen in Europe.

40:09

So how jarring it has it

40:11

been for Jews in Australia? Has

40:13

it changed their view of the

40:15

country or are they still clinging

40:17

to their belief that Australia is

40:20

a good place for Jewish people

40:22

to live? I think, look, there's

40:24

a mix of feelings and sometimes

40:26

people feel and express almost contrasting

40:28

emotions. and thoughts which may be

40:30

irreconcilable. But, you know, I've had

40:32

people say to me that they're

40:35

happy in a way, relieved that

40:37

their Holocaust survivor, parents and grandparents,

40:39

I don't like to see what

40:41

the countries become. I've had Holocaust

40:44

survivors themselves say to me like,

40:46

I can't believe this, you know,

40:48

I fled the ashes, the ruins

40:50

of Europe, and I'm the sole

40:53

survivor in my family, and I

40:55

went as far as humanly possible

40:57

from Europe to escape this. and

40:59

now we're having burning synagogues and

41:01

death to kill the Jews chanted

41:04

in the streets and they can't

41:06

believe it. But at the same time,

41:08

you know, you speak to Australian

41:10

Jews and they adore this country

41:12

as I do and they adore

41:14

the people of this country and

41:16

they are determined to stay here

41:19

and fight for it. But at the

41:21

same time, others are saying It's not

41:23

safe anymore. It's not safe. And if

41:25

I can't walk the streets proudly and

41:27

openly as a Jew, I don't want to be

41:29

in this country anymore because that's one

41:32

of the things that made this country

41:34

fortunate and great. The fact that people

41:36

don't really care. People, you know,

41:38

we talk about multiculturalism and it's

41:40

almost a controversial concept, but

41:42

my understanding of multiculturalism is that

41:45

you can bring your culture, your

41:47

language, your traditions, your food, your

41:49

dad, your dads, whatever. But you

41:51

have to subscribe to a common ethos, a

41:54

common set of values, of the adhered laws,

41:56

and you'll be left alone, and you'll enrich

41:58

the country with your tradition. and with

42:00

your culture, and we all get

42:02

along, and that's generally how it's

42:04

always been. But people feel

42:06

like there's either been a

42:08

failure of multiculturalism, or the country

42:11

has radically changed, or perhaps foreign

42:13

ideologies are now penetrating the psyche

42:15

and the ethos and the spirit

42:18

of this country, and the country

42:20

is changing before our eyes. And for

42:22

a long time, people would say things

42:24

like, this is an Australian, and who

42:26

we are who we are. But I've been

42:29

saying this is exactly who we

42:31

are, because if this is happening

42:33

with regularity, not as a one-off, you

42:35

know, you may like to conceive

42:38

of yourself as being something better

42:40

or something different, but ultimately this

42:42

becomes a part of who you are, your

42:45

behavior defines who you are, and

42:47

this behavior, going back to October

42:49

7 and 8 and the things

42:51

we spoke about, and the reluctance,

42:53

the inability of the majority. to put

42:55

an end to this, to stick out against

42:57

it and say, we're not going to have

42:59

this here. That shows that there is

43:02

an element of sloth and indifference in

43:04

this country, that's not a good thing.

43:06

and it makes it susceptible to

43:08

extremist ideologies because the extremists are

43:11

very determined as we know they're

43:13

very determined to push the ideology

43:15

to transform the country and if

43:17

the majority isn't equally determined to fight

43:19

for it and keep it as it should

43:22

be then that minority prevails and so

43:24

that there's something that needs to change

43:26

in this country that kind of that levity

43:28

you know that sense that we're an island

43:30

so far away from the rest of the

43:33

world and its problems That's an illusion and

43:35

I think we have to step out

43:37

of it. Hi, it's Brendan here. I

43:39

want to let you know some

43:41

exciting news. My new book is

43:43

Out Now. It's called After the

43:45

Pogrom 7th of October, Israel and

43:47

the Crisis of Civilization. And it's

43:49

available right now from Amazon. I'm

43:52

really proud of this book. It

43:54

is an unflinching account of how

43:56

the West failed the moral test

43:58

of 7th of October 2023. which

44:00

of course is the day that

44:02

Hamas and other militants invaded Israel

44:04

and unleashed barbarism. The book documents

44:07

in chilling detail how activists, academics

44:09

and others in the West ended

44:11

up making excuses for Hamas's violence,

44:14

ended up taking the side of

44:16

the Pogromists against the Pogroms victims,

44:18

and ended up in the process

44:20

turning their backs on the values

44:23

of civilisation. The book is fundamentally

44:25

a call to arms for Western

44:27

civilization. It makes the case for

44:29

restoring enlightenment values and standing with

44:32

Israel while it's under attack by

44:34

radical Islamists. I don't know if

44:36

an author is allowed to describe

44:39

his own book as essential reading,

44:41

but I really do think it's

44:43

essential reading. It's called After the

44:45

Pogrom, 7th of October, Israel and

44:48

the Crisis of Civilization, and you

44:50

can get your copy right now

44:52

on Amazon. If you want a

44:54

signed copy of the book and

44:57

why wouldn't you, you can get

44:59

one by donating 50 pounds or

45:01

more to Spiked. Just go to

45:04

the Spiked website, look for the

45:06

Donate button, donate today and you

45:08

will get a free signed copy

45:10

off after the pogrom, 7th of

45:13

October, Israel and the Crisis of

45:15

Civilization. Yeah, it's such an important

45:17

point, you know, so often in

45:19

history we see that... the silence

45:22

of the majority can embolden the

45:24

wicked minority. And I think that's

45:26

playing out in lots of our

45:29

countries right now at the moment,

45:31

sadly. Okay, Alex, I want to

45:33

ask you about anti-Zionism. This is

45:35

an issue that you and I

45:38

have talked about before. And you

45:40

will know that a lot of

45:42

people, you mentioned already that the

45:44

car that was daubed with, fuck

45:47

the Jews on one side and

45:49

fuck Israel on the other, which

45:51

to my mind is a perfect

45:54

distillation of what anti-Zionism is, which

45:56

is, in my view, is hatred

45:58

for the Jews in fancy language

46:00

in kind of a pseudo-political language.

46:03

But you will know that a

46:05

lot of the people... will say

46:07

in response to the kind of

46:09

points that you've been making for

46:12

the past 16-17 months people will

46:14

say a lot of this stuff

46:16

is not anti-Semitism is anti-zionism it's

46:19

anger at Israel's actions it's anger

46:21

at Israel's war on Hamas or

46:23

it's genocide as they call it

46:25

how do you deal with those

46:28

kinds of arguments how do you

46:30

push back against this notion that

46:32

there is there are these two

46:34

very distinct things anti-Zionism which is

46:37

apparently a legitimate political view and

46:39

anti-Semitism which is an illegitimate racial

46:41

hatred how do you tease out

46:44

those kind of differences well in

46:46

a way it's kind of happened

46:48

for me it's happened for us

46:50

and we've often obviously made these

46:53

intellectual arguments about anti-Zionism and I

46:55

think one of the big problems

46:57

is again in terms of language

46:59

so When you look at Zionism

47:02

and anti-Zanism, anti-Zanism always ran in

47:04

parallel to Zionism. So when there

47:06

were Jews in Europe in the

47:09

late 19th century arguing for a

47:11

Jewish national movement, a Jewish awakening,

47:13

a Jewish in gathering in our

47:15

ancestral lands in order to cure

47:18

anti-Semitism, revive the Jewish spirit in

47:20

large Jewish contributions to the world,

47:22

there was a screen running alongside

47:24

of anti-Zanism, mainly of Jews. including

47:27

in the UK, people like Edwin

47:29

Montague, including in Australia. I mentioned

47:31

Sir Isaac Isaac Isaac, it's one

47:34

of our eminent Australians, was the

47:36

Jewish anti-zionist, not because he opposed

47:38

Jews or hated Jewish self-determination, but

47:40

because he believed that a simulation

47:43

integration was the better way to

47:45

cure anti-Semitism and improve the lives

47:47

of Jews. So that established anti-zionism

47:49

as a legitimate point of view

47:52

at the time. And of course,

47:54

two major things then totally discredit

47:56

ad designers and firstly the Holocaust

47:59

which makes more career the notion

48:01

that Jews can be secure and

48:03

safe as long as they're good

48:05

citizens and participate. And then the

48:08

creations that of Israel which achieve

48:10

Zionism and so anti-Zionism is no

48:12

longer a theoretical opposition to an

48:14

idea of philosophy. It's the opposition

48:17

to a country that exists with

48:19

people living there and so it's

48:21

no longer a credible normal movement.

48:24

But the term anti-Zionism survives but

48:26

it becomes something different to what

48:28

it once was and it becomes

48:30

not... opposition to Jewish self-determination, but

48:33

it just becomes this frenzied extreme

48:35

hatred of Jews and of Israel

48:37

all entangled together and an opportunity

48:39

to lay every myth and stereotype

48:42

that people once expressed towards Jews

48:44

about being greedy and sinister and

48:46

bloodthirsty and all these things and

48:49

all powerful and all controlling and

48:51

just to shift it to the

48:53

state of Israel and to shift

48:55

it to the Zionists. And, you

48:58

know, if you look at Soviet

49:00

propaganda in the 50s and 60s,

49:02

they made that transition. They spoke

49:05

of their fondness for Jews, even

49:07

while imposing quotas on Jews in

49:09

professions and keeping them out of

49:11

professions entirely and persecuting them wholesale,

49:14

but they maintained they were very

49:16

fond of Jews, but their opposition

49:18

was the Zionism. And the Zionist

49:20

was the corporate Jew, effectively the

49:23

collective Jew. But... Now all of

49:25

this discussion that we can have

49:27

for hours and hours and it's

49:30

very difficult to establish and prove

49:32

to people who are generally carrying

49:34

very little information and awareness of

49:36

the things that we're talking about

49:39

now. It kind of goes away

49:41

and no longer matters. So when

49:43

you had another shocking incident about

49:45

a week ago where you had

49:48

these two nurses at a public

49:50

hospital in a video chat with

49:52

an Israeli guy talking about murdering

49:55

Israeli patients. The interesting thing about

49:57

that in the to that again

49:59

shows that things have changed, that

50:01

there has been an awakening in

50:04

Australia. That was reported across the

50:06

board, spoken about by every politician,

50:08

federal, state, as being an anti-Semitic

50:10

incident. No one questioned it, even

50:13

though the word Jew wasn't used.

50:15

So I think people have woken

50:17

up to the reality that if

50:20

you harbor this psychotic, consumptive hatred

50:22

of Israel, very distinct from a

50:24

critique of Israeli politics and politicians,

50:26

which is normal and reasonable and

50:29

is something very, very different. But

50:31

when you have this frenzied hatred

50:33

that compels it to burn things

50:35

and threaten to kill people when

50:38

your healthcare professional, people go, I

50:40

don't think this is a political

50:42

critique anymore. I think there's something

50:45

more sinister and more deeply held

50:47

than that. So really, I think

50:49

these psychopaths have done our job

50:51

for us. I think they've revealed...

50:54

that there is critique of Israel

50:56

and opposition to settlements and a

50:58

view maybe that Israel didn't proceed

51:00

in the wars that should have

51:03

and we can discuss that and

51:05

that's all fair game but when

51:07

people are burning synagogues and cars

51:10

and threatening to kill people that's

51:12

clearly driven by hatred to the

51:14

people and I think there's a

51:16

realization and finally it's happened. Yeah

51:19

I thought it was very heartening

51:21

to see lots of leaders in

51:23

Australia referred to those nurses' comments

51:25

as anti-Semitic, including the Prime Minister

51:28

Anthony Albanese who made that very

51:30

clear. He called them anti-Semitic comments

51:32

and they very clearly were. And

51:35

then of course you had this

51:37

gathering of Muslim representatives or self-styled

51:39

Muslim representatives who wrote an open

51:41

letter saying Well, you know, the

51:44

nurses were just being emotional and

51:46

hyperbolic and they were only expressing

51:48

their anger with Israel and you

51:50

just feel like that didn't wash

51:53

in the way that it might

51:55

have done in the past and

51:57

lots of people could see through

52:00

that and they could see that

52:02

these nurses were expressing a vile

52:04

bigotry, not a political criticism of

52:06

Israel. I did want to ask

52:09

you in relation to the Zionist

52:11

question and listeners should know that

52:13

as well as being an advocate

52:15

for the Jews of Australia you

52:18

are also an author, you've written

52:20

numerous books on the Jewish issue

52:22

and the Israel issue including you

52:25

edited a book called the anti-Israel

52:27

Agenda inside the political war on

52:29

the Jewish state which is a

52:31

very fine read and I highly

52:34

recommend it. in which you explore

52:36

the interplay I guess between the

52:38

very palpable hostility towards Israel in

52:40

much of Western society and the

52:43

kind of growth of anti-Semitism or

52:45

the return of anti-Semitism. I did

52:47

want to ask you about one

52:50

incident in particular because I think

52:52

it's quite instructive which was the

52:54

doxing scandal in Australia in early

52:56

2024 so this was when some...

52:59

leftist journalists doxed a group of

53:01

Jews, Jewish creatists, Jewish activists, Jewish

53:04

spokespeople who had set up a

53:06

WhatsApp group after 7th of October

53:08

in order to talk about things

53:10

and to get their thoughts together

53:12

and to put... ideas to each

53:14

other about how they might tackle

53:17

the problems facing Jewish people. Their

53:19

names were docked and their details

53:21

were put out in public and

53:23

as a consequence of that a

53:25

lot of these Jewish people received

53:27

extraordinary levels of abuse. But it

53:30

was justified by these left-wing journalists

53:32

and left-wing campaigners, the docs in

53:34

was justified as an effort to

53:36

unmask Zionists. That's how they presented

53:38

it. They were docsing Zionists and

53:41

exposing these kind of secret conniving

53:43

Zionists to the world. I mean,

53:45

that was a very good example

53:47

of what you've just been talking

53:49

about, wasn't it? Where people used

53:51

the word Zionist, when really, a

53:54

lot of the time, they just

53:56

mean Jews. It was an extraordinary

53:58

incident really because you know when

54:00

the war started people did what

54:02

they tend to do which is

54:05

form little groups and little what's

54:07

out chats and you suddenly had

54:09

groups like lawyers Palestine and architects

54:11

for Palestine and health professions for

54:13

Palestine that were you know organizing

54:15

and you know trying to drive

54:18

their agenda in their profession. and

54:20

try to get their professional bodies

54:22

to pass resolutions condemning Israel and

54:24

all that sort of stuff. And

54:26

the Jewish community did much the

54:29

same thing. They created their own

54:31

WhatsApp groups of lawyers for Israel

54:33

and credits for Israel, where having

54:35

been in a couple of days

54:37

before very promptly muting them, there's

54:39

just a lot of just idle

54:42

chatter. Oh my God, have you

54:44

seen this? What are we going

54:46

to do about that? And it's

54:48

a place for people to console

54:50

and vent and that's it. Nothing

54:53

untoward, what... you know beyond what

54:55

someone would expect in a chat

54:57

group like this. But the chat

54:59

group swelled to about 600 members

55:01

and obviously a group of that

55:03

size you know it's not going

55:06

to be carefully vetted and there's

55:08

going to be people with different

55:10

views there and people were just

55:12

dropping their friends or colleagues in

55:14

that they thought would be interested

55:16

and most people were passive. But

55:19

then a few sinister people joined

55:21

the group and then a few

55:23

what we would call social media

55:25

influences. fairly well-known people who published

55:27

books and appear on TV and

55:30

received public grants and speak at

55:32

festivals and so forth, decided that

55:34

they were going to use their

55:36

enormous platforms attained in part of

55:38

the public expense to expose every

55:40

one of these people and not

55:43

merely expose their names but expose

55:45

where they work in some cases

55:47

their addresses and phone numbers. And

55:49

the way they did it. was

55:51

with such sadistic pleasure, you know,

55:54

where they would post little preview.

55:56

Like this is coming, this is

55:58

happening, and it just, again, it's

56:00

that relish of the pogromist, that

56:02

capital, that delight in degrading and

56:04

humiliating people and drawing out their

56:07

suffering. And they ended up publishing

56:09

the whole chat and it led,

56:11

as you said, to people being

56:13

extremely fearful for their safety and

56:15

the lives of their children. And

56:18

a lot of people lost work

56:20

and were quietly or loudly canceled

56:22

and you know had writing projects

56:24

terminated and had gigs canceled and

56:26

things like that and you know

56:28

it was a horrible thing that

56:31

transpired and for me in my

56:33

position a large part of my

56:35

time around that period was spent

56:37

consoling comforting people and just listening

56:39

to them and trying to tell

56:41

them it's going to be okay

56:44

without really knowing if it is

56:46

going to be okay because where

56:48

in a very uncertain security situation.

56:50

This is before the five homings

56:52

had started. But we at that

56:55

point didn't quite know how bad

56:57

things to get and where things

56:59

could go and where whether people

57:01

would act on threats, whether people

57:03

would identify individuals through this docs

57:05

and try to physically target them.

57:08

So there was a real degree

57:10

of terror in the community caused

57:12

by this. And again, as you

57:14

spoke about, not only the act

57:16

itself, which was just... inhumane and

57:19

so clearly driven by this anti-Semitic

57:21

view that any flu reality of

57:23

Jews must be scheming and acting

57:25

for some nefarious purpose and therefore

57:27

to expose them is the just

57:29

and right and good and righteous

57:32

thing to do. But, you know,

57:34

the amount of people that defended

57:36

them publicly and tried to term

57:38

these Jews into villains merely for

57:40

being a WhatsApp group with some

57:43

of their colleagues, like it was

57:45

incredible. It was incredible. It was

57:47

incredible. And at the same time,

57:49

the fact that the Palestinian supporters

57:51

were doing literally the exact same

57:53

thing, and that was fine. And

57:56

it shows that the double standards

57:58

and how Jews are viewed. And

58:00

there was this one very telling

58:02

post, I remember, by one of

58:04

the lead doctors at the time,

58:06

where actually in response to a

58:09

public statement that I had made

58:11

about some issue, I remember her

58:13

posting on Instagram, if this is

58:15

what the Jews will say publicly,

58:17

just imagine what the same privately.

58:20

So if we come out and

58:22

use our democratic right to advocate

58:24

and speak, then we're down because

58:26

imagine what they're doing privately and

58:28

if we speak privately, well then

58:30

it's obviously for some scheming and

58:33

nefarious purpose. So clearly you can't

58:35

win with these individuals, which is

58:37

why they need to be fought.

58:39

And that was a moment I

58:41

think that really galvanized the community

58:44

that it was no longer something

58:46

that a few advocates could be

58:48

firing. I think people realize that

58:50

this is something that concerns all

58:52

of us. and that was really

58:54

I think again you look at

58:57

turning points and key moments I

58:59

don't think that led to this

59:01

great Australian awakening but I think

59:03

certainly within the Jewish community it

59:05

just brought back a lot of

59:08

again memories of lists and and

59:10

you know and and exclusion and

59:12

again that that clear intent to

59:14

humiliate and degrade people and that

59:16

really mobilized the Jewish community into

59:18

a force and to a coherent

59:21

powerful force. that's been fighting back

59:23

admirably. Yeah, so it backfired beautifully

59:25

on the anti-Semites or more anti-Zionists

59:27

as they would imagine themselves to

59:29

be if it had that kind

59:31

of impact. I think, you know,

59:34

to my mind that doxing scandal

59:36

was a classic example of the

59:38

socialism of fools where you have

59:40

the left that imagines that it

59:42

is standing up to the Zionist

59:45

entity or... the capitalist class but

59:47

in fact they're just bullying Jewish

59:49

people and they're just taunting Jewish

59:51

people and exposing their details to

59:53

the public in order to whip

59:55

up a storm against It was

59:58

really, really repulsive. OK, Alex, I've

1:00:00

just got my final question for

1:00:02

you. We've talked about a lot

1:00:04

of grim things, and a lot

1:00:06

of grim things are happening. We

1:00:09

can't look away from that, of

1:00:11

course. On the day on which

1:00:13

we're talking, the four bodies of

1:00:15

Israeli hostages were released, including the

1:00:17

Bebas family from Gaza. to Israel

1:00:19

and there were horrifying spectacles around

1:00:22

the release of these bodies in

1:00:24

Gaza. So awful things are happening,

1:00:26

dreadful things are happening, there's no

1:00:28

denying that, but there is also,

1:00:30

as you said at the very

1:00:33

beginning of the conversation, there is

1:00:35

also a culture of defiance and

1:00:37

a feeling of defiance and I

1:00:39

think possibly a growing willingness amongst

1:00:41

Jewish people but also amongst their

1:00:43

allies to stand up to some

1:00:46

of this stuff and I was

1:00:48

really heartened to see last year

1:00:50

that you alongside Deborah Conway and

1:00:52

Josh Friedenberg the former liberal government

1:00:54

minister in Australia you were named

1:00:56

as the Australian newspapers Australians of

1:00:59

the year the three of you

1:01:01

precisely for your campaign and against

1:01:03

the scourge of anti-Semitism and against

1:01:05

the post 7th of October delirium

1:01:07

that infected Australia as much as

1:01:10

it did other parts of the

1:01:12

Western world. That's a good thing

1:01:14

and there are other good things

1:01:16

happening too. So I just want

1:01:18

to ask you what you think

1:01:20

about the future? I mean there's

1:01:23

a lot to be pessimistic about

1:01:25

but do you think that the

1:01:27

pushback is coming? Has the pushback

1:01:29

come? Where do you think things

1:01:31

will go next? Well it's hard

1:01:34

to predict. There are clearly good

1:01:36

things. There are things which give

1:01:38

me confidence and you know you

1:01:40

mentioned the honor that I received

1:01:42

from the Australian and that was

1:01:44

very humbling and it was a

1:01:47

beautiful thing to be acknowledged with

1:01:49

but it showed me something which

1:01:51

I knew all the way through

1:01:53

is that Jewish issues are no

1:01:55

longer kind of peripheral or peculiar

1:01:58

to our community. very much national

1:02:00

issues, which is kind of a

1:02:02

solid precarious position to be in

1:02:04

because with the Jews being the

1:02:06

spotlight it to such an extent

1:02:08

and they're being literally every single

1:02:11

day for 16 months cover stories

1:02:13

in all the major newspapers and

1:02:15

it's not just kind of the

1:02:17

Australian which is very supportive of

1:02:19

the Jewish community, but you know

1:02:21

the national broadcasts of their DC

1:02:24

which is akin to your BBC.

1:02:26

You know, maybe they're editorialized different

1:02:28

but they've given probably equal prominence

1:02:30

to these issues. So everyone is

1:02:32

talking about it. And when everyone's

1:02:35

talking about the Jews, that it's

1:02:37

not necessarily a good thing, because

1:02:39

people are easily manipulated. There's an

1:02:41

ingrained, I think, bias based on

1:02:43

centuries of indoctrination and subtle conspiracy

1:02:45

theories that have been spread through

1:02:48

society. So I think it's a

1:02:50

slightly dangerous thing. But at the

1:02:52

same time, we've been given a

1:02:54

platform where we can speak. We

1:02:56

can show who we are. who

1:02:59

are what our values are and

1:03:01

that we're proud Australians and I

1:03:03

value that opportunity. So I think

1:03:05

that's a good thing. As I

1:03:07

said, there's been this emergence of

1:03:09

Jewish pride. You know, I can't

1:03:12

tell you how many people have

1:03:14

stopped me in the street or

1:03:16

sent me messages and it's not

1:03:18

merely, I saw you on TV,

1:03:20

good stuff. I never hear that.

1:03:23

What I hear is very personal

1:03:25

accounts from people who say things

1:03:27

like, I lapsed as a Jew.

1:03:29

in my childhood, but now I've

1:03:31

never felt more Jewish. I've started

1:03:33

on a synagogue again. Or, you

1:03:36

know, I've, you know, I've reconnected

1:03:38

the Jewish community in some other

1:03:40

way. And that is an incredible

1:03:42

thing and a beautiful thing and

1:03:44

a thing that makes all my,

1:03:46

you know, exertions and all my

1:03:49

work completely validated and worthwhile. And

1:03:51

that makes me extremely proud. And

1:03:53

I'm very glad for that. And

1:03:55

then you look abroad. and you

1:03:57

know the horrors of October 7th.

1:04:00

They brought a very bloody war,

1:04:02

a just and necessary but bloody

1:04:04

war. But I think, you know,

1:04:06

there's a prospect for redrawing the

1:04:08

Middle East, and I think that's

1:04:10

where it happened to a large

1:04:13

extent. I mean, incredible things have

1:04:15

happened. When you have a large

1:04:17

scale ballistic missile attack from Iran,

1:04:19

which is thwarted by a coalition,

1:04:21

including Saudi Arabia and Jordan, it

1:04:24

tells you that the world is

1:04:26

changing, that actually those who have

1:04:28

attempted to isolate Israel all these

1:04:30

decades. have really failed quite this

1:04:32

minute in fact in large part

1:04:34

they're isolated. Gaza will never be

1:04:37

the same again and it can't

1:04:39

be the same again because something

1:04:41

horrific has been revealed about that

1:04:43

society when you had thousands participate

1:04:45

in the atrocities of October 7

1:04:48

when you had guards and doctors

1:04:50

and journalists holding hostages in their

1:04:52

homes, people lying the streets and

1:04:54

still lining the streets to send

1:04:56

off the corpses of children with

1:04:58

jubilation, it reveals a rot in

1:05:01

that society that must be fixed.

1:05:03

And so Donald Trump can talk

1:05:05

about his reconstruction plans and whatnot,

1:05:07

that the main reconstruction needs to

1:05:09

be in the society rather than

1:05:11

in its buildings. And I think

1:05:14

now with Hamas. all but destroyed

1:05:16

or close to decimated, I think

1:05:18

there's a prospect for that. So

1:05:20

I'm by inclination and optimism and

1:05:22

I see a lot of good

1:05:25

things happening, but at the same

1:05:27

time, you know, again, knowing Jewish

1:05:29

history, things don't turn out exactly

1:05:31

as one would expect and AntiSemitism

1:05:34

as we know isn't a rational

1:05:36

thing. It doesn't look at the

1:05:38

Jews for who they are and

1:05:40

their contribution to society and the

1:05:42

world and their values and makes

1:05:45

a negative assessment of them and

1:05:47

makes them right for dehumanization and

1:05:49

persecution. That's not how it works.

1:05:51

The Jew is encased in mythology.

1:05:53

And so when people attack Jews,

1:05:55

they're not attacking the Jews, the

1:05:57

flesh and blood Jews. person that

1:06:00

lives amongst them and contributes and

1:06:02

is a peaceful person and an

1:06:04

educated person for most part, they're

1:06:06

attacking this mythological version of itself,

1:06:08

this grotesque monster that people have

1:06:10

created, just have something to kill.

1:06:12

And so I worry that with

1:06:15

the intense focus on the Jewish

1:06:17

people, with the visibility of Jewish

1:06:19

issues, and with the corruptibility of

1:06:21

society, with the malice that exists

1:06:23

in segments of society, with the

1:06:25

stupidity that exists in segments of

1:06:27

society. just where this will and

1:06:30

rationally I think good things will

1:06:32

come but you know I think

1:06:34

with a degree of skepticism the

1:06:36

knowledge of Jewish history I'm fearful

1:06:38

of what might happen but at

1:06:40

least now the Jewish community is

1:06:42

fully awake, modalised, united, determined and

1:06:45

not put us in the best

1:06:47

possible position for whatever lies in

1:06:49

that. Alex thank you very much.

1:06:51

A great pleasure, great pleasure. Thank

1:07:02

you for listening to the

1:07:04

Brendan O'Neill Show. We'll be

1:07:07

back with another guest and

1:07:09

more discussion. Don't forget to

1:07:11

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