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0:32

we are frankly cast racing

0:35

young gay boys before they're ever going to have

0:37

their first orgasm and putting

0:39

lesbian girls on the past

0:41

two mustang to me to taking testosterone

0:44

having a voices breaks growing beards

0:47

i , bogle again and

0:49

it's actually cheered on by

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the groups that were splendid to support

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gay rights langston rule it's really

0:56

really really upsetting so

0:58

i think we were living in a fool's paradise

1:00

you know we thought that homophobia had gone away

1:03

or at least it at least lurked in dark corners

1:05

i accept awful lot more homophobia

1:08

including unrecognized on the site

1:14

hello welcome back to the brendan o'neill

1:16

show with me brendan o'neill

1:18

and my special guests this week alan

1:20

joyce allen welcome back to

1:22

the podcast this is the second time you've

1:24

been on thanks so much we

1:27

love having you on and i think it will

1:29

be pretty obvious to listen as why we've

1:31

got you back this week it's because

1:34

in relation to the issue that you have

1:36

written and spoken about extensively

1:38

over the past few years which is the trans

1:41

issue a lot of stuff is happening

1:43

a lot of sayings seem to be shaking

1:45

up and even

1:48

you know whispering some positive development

1:50

seem to be taking place in

1:52

everything from the mistreatment

1:54

of children who have gender dysphoria

1:57

right through to the rights of women to express

1:59

the agenda critical views in the workplace interesting

2:03

things are happening and i want to dig

2:05

into all that stuff with you during the course

2:07

of his conversation but i'll take off

2:09

with a broad question to get the ball

2:11

rolling i want to get a sense from

2:13

you if it is your feelings of things

2:16

are moving in a positive direction

2:18

is the discussion finally being

2:21

the back to the plane of reason

2:23

do you feel positive about how the trans

2:26

discussing is going at the moment i really

2:28

do i think and mean is several

2:30

things have happened in just the last couple

2:32

of weeks sorry if i send a little bit more

2:34

the past months that give me an immense amount

2:36

of time and , in

2:38

at us as he say that includes to very

2:40

important employment tribunals cases

2:43

most of my as for stature and dallas and baby and

2:45

we can talk about that it's a bit more more

2:47

dissent has stick news that the jades

2:50

clinic at the tavistock is to close

2:52

to what replaces this is

2:54

of course up for grabs but i'm

2:56

assured behind the scenes that some

2:58

what replaces it will see this research

3:00

will be properly into graced with other mental health services

3:02

and so on and the tavistock have become super

3:05

ideological so i didn't think it could have been

3:07

rescued needed closing really

3:09

happy to see all the candidates

3:12

to see the two remaining candidates but

3:14

also can be bad not is wonderful say

3:16

really sensible and positive

3:18

things about women's rights sex

3:21

based rights

3:23

am and yeah i think kim

3:25

all in all yes

3:27

good news in general and that would say

3:29

okay well let's talk about some of that good

3:31

news and let's start

3:34

with the tavistock issues that you mention

3:36

their that tavistock gender identity clinic

3:38

is to close following a pretty stinging

3:41

report about it's practices and it's

3:43

, of ideology as you put

3:45

it and and others have put it to which i think

3:47

it's a very apt description as

3:50

you say we don't really know what's going to take

3:52

his place there is discussion about more local

3:54

clinics opening but there's also discussion

3:57

about those having to adhere having higher

3:59

levels of evidence and care

4:01

and things that you would expect when it comes

4:03

to the treatment of young people let's

4:06

talk about how problematic

4:08

that clinic had become and what that

4:10

reflects about the broader trends

4:12

question so your book which

4:15

we talked about the last time you on the podcast

4:17

a which is a brilliant book trans when

4:19

ideology meets reality really

4:22

captured captured of the problems with

4:24

when you elevate ideology of

4:27

bows truce reason

4:29

and treating people

4:31

in the way that they ought to be treated especially

4:33

if they present with gender dysphoria

4:36

it's as our young effect confused and

4:38

so on so give

4:40

us an outline of what was

4:42

going on was your use at

4:44

your use like the tavistock clinic and why

4:47

it was problematic that young people were being

4:49

treated in the way they were

4:50

you got to understand that have a stock as

4:52

a really a place that's kind of inside

4:55

normal practices and health

4:56

in in particular normal practice for kids

4:59

it's not so much that it was especially service

5:02

because services that are it for very

5:04

tiny numbers of people say for example

5:06

cancer care for children those

5:08

do tend to be gathered just one or two centers

5:10

because that's the only way you can get the expertise

5:13

in the clinic at the tavistock with the one for

5:15

the whole of england's is had england's satellite and

5:17

leaves the sandiford in scotland's

5:20

and those do all the gender care but

5:23

the thing is that made them made suitable right the target

5:25

for ideologues who have the civic

5:27

ideas about gender identity

5:30

so what i call gender identity ideology and

5:32

my book is this notion that one

5:34

of us have an innate sense of whether

5:36

they were were men or women or girls or boys

5:39

or something else something between in oaks

5:42

then and that's the things

5:44

that make

5:45

you a boy or girl not

5:47

your sex not your actual both body and

5:49

those ideologues really targeted

5:52

the tavistock that's the way it practiced medicine

5:54

set was working within a tradition

5:56

more general

5:57

the all like talk therapy

5:59

here in encino influenced

6:01

by freud and all these ideas are use it for ten

6:04

years and dig down into your psyche

6:06

and then kids were coming in and saying you

6:08

know i like playing with trucks

6:11

are like wearing pink can assert two sessions

6:14

they were putting small kids on puberty blockers

6:16

are saying yes indeed you must be a girl

6:19

and clinton went completely bizarre

6:21

it turns out they weren't doing any research

6:23

they weren't even keeping track of their patients

6:25

they said they were doing a trial of puberty blockers

6:27

they weren't actually doing a trial we

6:30

had to rebels hate a case to and

6:32

for judicial review and

6:34

he got overturned in the high court but the evidence

6:36

that came out an initial during was just shocking

6:39

just people who immediately called

6:41

the little girls boys when the girls came in and said

6:43

they were boys yes sir i don't think

6:45

it was rescue a ball on that

6:48

the reason that we've got news is because

6:50

and after years of pressure from campaigners

6:53

the government decided to get a very

6:55

eminence pediatrician don't for hillary cass

6:58

to look cats more broadly what gender

7:00

identity services should be for kids and

7:03

see

7:03

it was as interim report a while back

7:05

that was really stinging

7:06

the tavistock like really simmered

7:08

it for it's poor practices the lack of

7:10

evidence and so on and it's

7:12

she who said this in effect it's

7:15

on rescue herbal it needs to be closed

7:17

and the to great things about what she said

7:20

apart from the fact that the tabby is to close or

7:22

what in that and the to

7:24

centers that are gonna take over going to do we

7:26

really good research that gonna keep track of absolutely

7:29

everybody eats the gonna do proper try

7:31

that would have never been done anywhere on puberty blockers

7:33

stayed never compared kids who get some

7:35

and kids who dance and they've been using them

7:38

worldwide since ninety nine season they've still

7:40

got no evidence base and the

7:42

other one is that it's going to be and combined

7:44

with other health care so kids who

7:46

turn up at the top the queen know have

7:48

loads of other problems your self harm

7:51

am a lot of them are gay and have internalized

7:53

homophobia i'm a lot of them have

7:55

autistic spectrum disorder is that once somebody

7:58

says gender the order one

8:00

talks about

8:01

it's called diagnostic overshadowing

8:03

which is an expression i learned from hillary casket report

8:05

that the great expressions once there's gender

8:08

we talk about nothing else and that's going to chains

8:10

we're going to see these centers

8:13

the or holistically with these kids and i do

8:15

have face and hillary castle

8:16

in a report says she knows what's what's what

8:19

yeah it it's a really good report

8:21

very strongly post as well and

8:23

much needed but you've just said something

8:26

there that i think it's really worth wondering

8:28

for a moment because it really does capture

8:30

how out of control this

8:32

had become which is the point about puberty

8:35

blockers and the fact that there have not

8:37

been serious tests on puberty

8:39

blockers and the consequences that they might

8:41

have that is extraordinary

8:44

isn't it that such drugs would

8:46

be given to children in almost

8:48

an experimental way to see

8:51

does it work will alleviate that

8:53

gender confusions and their gender

8:55

issues with little regard for

8:57

the impact in might have in terms of

9:00

sir timothy the development

9:03

mental wellness as well in relation

9:05

to the radical transformation

9:07

of a young person's body in an already

9:09

difficult part of the young person's life that's

9:12

extraordinary it's worth really dwelling on

9:14

that isn't it the fact that there was almost

9:16

an experimental approached children who were

9:18

going through a tough time you know it's worse

9:20

that's it wasn't even experimental when

9:22

you do an experiment somebody is testing different

9:25

possibilities and tracking the outcome this these

9:27

people had the isn't only understand

9:30

is if you realize that these

9:32

clinicians store said

9:34

we can endpoint if

9:37

you believe that people have something

9:39

that something think now as gender souls

9:41

and they sometimes get trapped inside the wrong body

9:44

and , find out that somebody has a gendered soul

9:46

because they tell you that then everything

9:48

else follows and it follows backwards it's not

9:51

backwards cat it's not just that it's isn't evidence

9:53

based medicine

9:54

the chance be evidence based message

9:56

medicine so one

9:58

thing i genuinely don't understand

9:59

and i wish that there wasn't this no debate

10:02

think as i would really love to ask these

10:04

super ideological doctors i

10:06

finish in this but why do

10:08

you feel you need to reshape the body like

10:10

of the words man and one and boy and girl refer

10:12

to anybody with anybody tight and

10:15

it's translated they can look at some beautiful

10:17

young woman like yourself friend on who declares himself

10:19

to be herself i thank you for just be a woman's

10:21

and to see anything wrong with that

10:24

for me to say that i'm a man and see

10:26

anything wrong with that isn't be transfer you bake them

10:28

oil

10:28

are we changing people's bodies yeah

10:31

my kids are older and they want to change the body

10:33

you could say when it's autonomy but we're not

10:35

talking about it would be but we're talking about children

10:39

and the end the things that were doing in a let's

10:41

not forget puberty is the second

10:43

most important developmental sprints

10:46

of a child's life after the first year or so

10:49

everything changes if you can remember your own puberty

10:52

not just that use green facial

10:54

hair and sprouted up words and things

10:56

like that and started to feel sexual attraction say

10:59

in your brain your independence

11:01

is the start of breaking away from your own family

11:04

you know to interrupt that strikes

11:06

me as is beyond

11:08

risky like the sort of thing that you would only

11:10

do if the charge in front of you might die

11:13

younger wise ass and that's the final thing

11:15

i'd say this say this suicide novices

11:18

that the ideologues pedal which is that

11:20

if you don't give these children the medicines task

11:22

force it's scene of it's suicide or transition

11:25

they had this awful cash

11:26

grace which is which prefer a dead daughter

11:28

or alive son and

11:31

then you know if it's if it's going to save a child's

11:33

life okay would you argue about the

11:35

such that the shot is going to be sterile is

11:37

probably never they have an orgasm when

11:40

a great difficulty forming stable relationships

11:42

may have brain problems my own problems

11:45

everything you would do those things

11:46

you to a child my billie now there's

11:49

no evidence whatsoever

11:51

in fact i worry about some of the kids who been transitioned

11:53

wrongly i think they're the ones

11:56

i'm worried about the future that's very well

11:58

put and icing

11:59

the use of the specter

12:02

of suicide has become this repugnant

12:05

form of moral blackmail essentially which

12:07

is that , exploitation

12:09

of the problem a suicide in

12:11

order to to sue the ideological goal

12:13

of having more transitions or recognizing

12:16

that someone's body might need to be amended to

12:19

being keeping with their socal gendered

12:21

socal and anyone who's ever

12:23

read the samaritans guidelines on suicide

12:25

knows that you are not supposed

12:27

to do that kind of thing at journalists

12:30

are at journalists to adhere

12:32

to those guidelines in particular but that those

12:34

rules or those guidelines are broken all

12:36

the time by trans activists

12:39

and trans allies it's really really questionable

12:42

in relation to something you said

12:44

earlier about the tavistock clinic

12:46

in the young people who are presenting their

12:48

which over the past two years has been a really

12:50

huge number of girls in

12:53

particular an exponential rise in the number

12:55

of girls who for

12:57

some reason to do with social

12:59

contagion and maybe a

13:01

culture of muscle to me seem

13:03

to not to want to be girls seem to think

13:06

there's a real problem with being girls you

13:08

mentioned that some of these young people are

13:10

gay or will become gay

13:12

it as they grow up did

13:15

you ever think we would be in the situation

13:18

in the early twenty first century where

13:21

young gay people in the a large

13:23

number of them all would be medically

13:26

treated medically interfered with

13:28

in order to correct them i

13:31

mean it's like something out of a nightmare a

13:33

dystopian scenario the young

13:35

gay kids would be put through that kind of process

13:37

and there's an element that of us

13:40

homophobia or awesome problem

13:42

with ization of being a young gay person

13:45

which nice to be corrected truth medical

13:47

intervention as pretty shocking isn't it keeps has

13:49

given me has full body shiver talking through that

13:51

and i'm it's not something it's haven't thought before but

13:53

every time i it's it's

13:55

a starkly again not just that we

13:57

are frankly

13:59

can

13:59

the racing young gay boys

14:02

before they're ever going to have their first orgasm

14:05

and he know putting

14:07

lesbian girls the

14:09

past two mastectomy to

14:11

taking to the train having their voices breaks

14:14

growing beards

14:15

the i just spoke of

14:17

again it's it's an and then and it's i the

14:19

cheered on by the groups

14:21

that was founded to support gay rights

14:24

like stonewall is really is really

14:26

pressing so i think we were living

14:28

in a fool's paradise in a we thought that homophobia

14:31

had gone away or lisa

14:33

to just learn

14:33

in dark corners i actually think

14:35

that there's an awful lot more homophobia including

14:38

unrecognized homophobia the

14:41

one of the things you can see the if you

14:43

have the stomach for is is

14:45

, were a couple of videos that you can watch

14:47

of mothers talking about know sibelius

14:49

eminence little boys their sons

14:51

smaller than a cz green who is t

14:53

and ceo of transgender

14:56

amazon was he mermaids and another

14:58

as another woman cools i forget her first name

15:00

but the surname is simply and she's american

15:02

and she's woman in

15:04

both cases they've given videos and which

15:06

they described fly they

15:08

saw their sons apply their sons

15:10

the were

15:11

really girls and in both cases

15:14

they say the that a starting point

15:16

with the probably this little boy is going to grow

15:18

gay and in

15:20

city green this case it was her husband to

15:22

at a problem with that rather than herself and

15:24

in the shower please case there evangelical

15:27

christians and they had a big problem with it and

15:29

they described completely open late so they

15:31

would be the boys if you tried to play with

15:33

girls toys and , they were embarrassed

15:36

the people in their church would say to them

15:38

is your sunday to grow up a little nibble used to

15:40

he was to to the time it was

15:42

he was for they had transitions him so

15:45

him think that when you look at these parents

15:48

you're seeing people who maybe

15:51

to haven't honestly thought

15:53

it they do you know

15:55

their son is likely to grow gay

15:57

they don't like actually don't like the idea that

15:59

their son might

15:59

home with you know some

16:02

letter bike or something like that money's going to

16:04

be on the scene and

16:06

that made it one day they'll be attending a wedding with two

16:08

men that they don't like kids and

16:10

i don't know how much they think through what they're

16:12

doing but what they are doing it's just

16:14

the most shocking thing and thing didn't fully believe

16:17

that it will be recognized as recognized as

16:19

medical scans or perhaps the biggest medical

16:21

and look at twenty first century at some

16:23

point not too far away out i

16:25

hope so too and or i've always thought

16:27

that it is not a coincidence asshole

16:30

that iran has one of the highest

16:32

levels of a transgender operations

16:35

because it is a very lovely homophobic

16:38

society in which

16:40

it is preferable to mutilate

16:43

a young man rather than allow him to be

16:45

a practicing homosexuals are there are lots

16:47

of operations in iran with the sanction

16:50

of the state in iran which are

16:52

transformed yeah young men

16:54

into suppose it women and

16:57

the fact that that snubbing mirrored in some

16:59

of the practice is taking place in the west is

17:01

really quite shocking and that it's praised

17:03

here by campaigners

17:04

pink news on staying will think news ran an article

17:07

once

17:07

the a rank that publishes

17:09

nonsense about sorts of things but

17:12

in particular claims to represent gay people

17:14

it doesn't really it's the transgender and

17:16

, published a piece in which they

17:18

praised iran and yeah

17:21

and for their forward looking attitudes to

17:23

trans people it's just updates

17:25

sanction these operations it's that

17:27

they pay for them and they sometimes force

17:29

young gay men into them so it's that are you know

17:31

the other things they the game and which are stoning

17:34

hanging imprisoning

17:37

pc so you know you can get

17:39

castration or will can be a fantastic

17:41

offer really super progressive yeah well done

17:44

that you know that learning has been shown

17:46

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18:06

and on one dream it is just so easy

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with syndrome is the educational platform

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18:17

of some everyday activities that's

18:19

what the new wonder hm series great

18:22

board games of the ancient world brilliantly

18:24

explores did you know that backgammon

18:27

was played by british and french troops

18:29

passing the time during the crusades

18:31

in the middle ages or how in

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ancient indian gang developed into

18:35

chess in the west but may also

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show is just one of many eye-opening

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brendan [unk] genuinely

19:31

depressing that after the past

19:34

fifty or sixty years off enormous

19:37

positive leaps forward for gay rights we've

19:39

ended up in a situation as you've just

19:41

described were young

19:44

gay men are essentially being chemically

19:46

castrated the very least and young lesbians

19:48

or been transformed into

19:52

fake men and and you know that

19:54

the if you read some of the stories particularly

19:56

from the parents who lost their children

19:59

to this cold you will often read

20:01

about young women who

20:04

come home from their first time at university

20:06

they got facial hair that voices of deepened

20:09

they may have changed their name day

20:11

their mannerisms as have certainly changed

20:14

and all of that doesn't my all i

20:16

wanted to ask you in relation to that aspect

20:19

of it how much you think this think this social contagion

20:21

and how you think that plays itself

20:24

out or how that works because

20:26

there is something quite extraordinary isn't there

20:28

about the growing numbers of young people

20:30

who are going through this the unwillingness

20:33

of the people who should be looking

20:35

out for young people's health to call

20:37

it out to question it to put up a

20:39

stop sign and say look we think that's a social

20:42

contagion element s and made

20:44

we should press pause before we take further action

20:46

as you think these things titles

20:49

things the way that they do in terms of encouraging

20:51

more young people to go down is pretty reckless route

20:54

the things often stars with the best of intentions

20:58

you know if it's a bit like the mental health

21:00

saying that children's mental health never

21:02

been worse

21:04

i mean i wanted to say that

21:05

despite all the talk

21:07

about

21:07

mental health and i will the lessons about meant has but

21:09

i don't think it is despite i think it's only

21:11

because yeah so

21:14

i friend of mine was telling

21:15

her daughter is my first year a second as

21:17

good as a lovely girl and really it really

21:19

doing grace fairy

21:20

the child and , recently

21:22

has some mental health lessons were there or given this

21:24

checklist things and you're meant to

21:27

be constantly looking asses and deciding how

21:29

happy are you are not and it's not just happiness

21:31

is things like are you hydrated have you had some exercise

21:33

how you feeling and this poor girl says

21:35

to her mom you know so much worse

21:38

this makes me feel worse so

21:40

it's so yes it's a toxic individualism

21:43

a toxic sources how

21:45

per or distorted liberalism

21:48

where all the focuses in were

21:49

the on yourself i mean i'm

21:52

old enough sun or something catholic

21:54

ireland's you know if i said that i was miserable

21:57

or board or something like that i was told

21:58

oh and do something nice for

21:59

one else

22:00

maybe thinking so much about nice but that's

22:02

actually very good mental health advice cities

22:06

children the told the most important thing

22:08

about that assigning thing about them is

22:10

their identity

22:10

and it was a to the

22:13

you're sick lessons i wish the department

22:15

for education would get control of would you believe brendan

22:17

that they have a list of approved

22:19

providers for teaching phonics but

22:21

no list of approved provider for teaching all

22:23

rest of your p s a g the and

22:25

the bloody don't tom dick or harry concession

22:28

up and teach nonsense that i have had sex

22:30

is a spectrum and there's no such thing as male and

22:32

female and that it's bigotry to say

22:35

there is and then they go into schools and

22:37

of course teachers have been rightly

22:39

dope [unk]

22:39

bullying rightly want to be in a wrinkle

22:41

he says and diverse and all of those things you do

22:43

have to be in a modern british classroom in i

22:45

got really very very people in front of you it's

22:47

not a monolithic country and

22:48

the more sleeping disappointing to do

22:51

they think this is just the extension

22:53

the old stopping homophobic bullying

22:55

stuffing racist bullying the next

22:57

thing is to tell the children that

22:59

there's no such thing as boy or girl or the boy or

23:01

girl is what you feel instead of what you are

23:04

and you don't know she's somehow with that officers

23:06

are progressive stuff like progress it is saying

23:08

if you're a girl that can change do

23:11

what you like yeah

23:12

i should stop you girls can go to the moon girls

23:14

can be presidents

23:15

they can do anything the us and vice versa of course

23:18

the boys the boy says he wants to wear pink dress

23:20

is less him where his bloody pink dress who

23:22

cares socially and importance but

23:24

then to say that makes him a girl is the offices

23:26

of progressive just so yeah there's a massive

23:29

social contagion elements there's and it happens

23:31

with social media platforms of course temblor

23:33

was the worst and i tick tock is

23:35

hugely taken over for it from it's is

23:37

all these maj videos of teachers talking

23:40

about coming out of non binary to their nursery kids

23:42

and anything amazingly sixteen

23:44

kids commercials non binary now my class the

23:46

anti wonderful oh no shit

23:49

sherlock the as

23:51

a social contagion and sources

23:53

and socially miss direct the desire

23:56

to help feed though a doing is in ways

23:58

that harm because it is

23:59

incredible hyper focus on the individual

24:02

instead of a society and

24:03

yeah absolutely i

24:05

completely agree that there is it is

24:07

utterly regressive this notion that

24:10

ever boy like told

24:13

and wearing pink than he must be a girl

24:15

we have to force him hormonal

24:17

a or socially into that box and and

24:19

vice versa it's it's incredibly

24:22

regressive in terms of all the kinds

24:24

of discussions we've been having about sexual

24:26

equality and the right of people to

24:28

break out of the gender stranglehold

24:31

over the past fifty or sixty years right some betty

24:34

friedan onwards and we seem to be

24:36

making a backward step on the all of that stuff just

24:38

to dwell for a moment more on the

24:40

negative side before we move on to

24:42

what's changing i

24:45

want to argue about how the tavistock

24:47

could keep on doing the things

24:49

that you've just described for a while in which the cast

24:52

report highlights has been problematic says

24:55

for such a long period of time because it seems

24:57

to me i mean there are there obvious

24:59

reasons which is that there were lots of idealogues

25:01

there and had become an ideological exercise

25:05

more than a clinical warm and there

25:07

were lots of problems internally and

25:10

and so on but one of the issues

25:12

the issues which is something that you have direct

25:14

experience off his the explicit

25:17

cats helmand off they

25:19

couldn't free discussion about the transition

25:22

so whistle blows from the tavistock clinic

25:25

where awesome demonized and sometimes referred

25:27

to as trans so big and at

25:29

that will have been others who felt they couldn't speak

25:31

out because they didn't want to subject themselves to

25:33

that kind of abuse their , women

25:35

like you his really been putting your head above

25:38

the parapet over the past few years who

25:40

are subjected to the most extraordinary

25:43

abuse you were recently referred to as a nazi

25:46

era rape threats or threats death threats jk

25:48

rowling has experienced lots of this as

25:50

well marriage relationship

25:53

a direct relationship i would argue between

25:56

i guess we could call it cancel cultural the clamping

25:59

down on

25:59

free discussion about this

26:02

problem the fact that it

26:04

could continue having a destructive

26:06

impact on young people's lives so it

26:08

really highlights the dangers doesn't make us

26:10

restricting debate about new developments

26:13

in society

26:14

the lately you know if you look back at

26:16

the history of medicine

26:17

they have been a lot of scandals and medicine and

26:20

it often takes a long time for whistle i was

26:22

to get free the because even before

26:25

modern day cancel culture it's never very

26:27

easy to talk about the guy in charge stuff

26:30

so i mean famously the guy who invents the

26:32

v and about him he got a nobel prize for

26:34

it

26:35

and he knew i have read some

26:37

history of fats and earlier scandals

26:40

like

26:40

i can watch it is about doctors but there

26:42

seems to be this tendency of there's to

26:44

settle on women's reproductive systems

26:46

as the thing that wrong with them and so right back in

26:49

the nineteenth century when women came in and if

26:51

there's misery are they were depressed

26:54

, whatever the doctor would suit against ah

26:56

it must be for users which

26:59

removes her ovaries or there are useless

27:01

as well and extraordinary sets

27:03

this sets this history of doctors

27:05

in particular with sources a more sus

27:07

mental the am hard

27:10

to describe shifting conditions

27:12

which gender dysphoria very much is

27:15

the to settle on physiologic

27:17

cause you're and to settle that

27:19

physiological cause on the sex organs and particularly

27:22

for women

27:22

the don't history affair and when

27:24

it happens it takes a while as often takes

27:27

the guy whose idea was dying before

27:29

we managed to stop it's to the famous

27:31

french doctor course asked basically

27:33

invented the nation's hysteria and

27:35

he coached his patients in his theory and they

27:38

would have these massive fits him when he died they stopped

27:41

by so you know that happens and we're just seeing as again

27:43

we've just seen another says your medical contagion

27:45

and eat it's eat it's just driven what's

27:47

new is it it's not just driven by the medical profession

27:50

it's driven online as well yes and

27:52

then that for the t you occurrence

27:55

sociological moments which the

27:57

say is one that's incredibly

27:59

income doubly the rich syrian

28:01

on the sort

28:02

speech friends and

28:05

i think it's think it's it's it's

28:06

the side of the internet's like anyone can say anything

28:08

that also anyone can stop you saying anything

28:11

like any did the tech companies tech companies never

28:13

say what i actually wanted the initial me the ama

28:16

like somebody said to me why do you think clear to him as

28:18

shouldn't be in women's sports and i want to say because we're told

28:20

mrs a man's house but i say that i lose

28:22

my twitter or a canvas and that's where they asked

28:24

me of course the trying to beat me so

28:26

yeah we have this similar tiniest

28:29

nobody's ever spoken much but also

28:31

they can just land on you like a ton of bricks thousands

28:33

of them and flying monkeys calling you a nazi

28:35

and trying to get you bans and you know may

28:37

be approaching your employer we just what happened to allison

28:39

made him such wanted as i'm sure that

28:41

literally people complaining to your employer

28:44

i chased

28:44

yeah i mean i

28:47

suppose i can say that all of that is like how with

28:49

happens that i guess the experience

28:51

of living through

28:52

it has taught me that we didn't understand

28:54

until now really fully how

28:56

important free speech was spike i thought

28:58

i cared about free speech but i think i always thought

29:00

about how unpleasant it feels to be silence

29:03

and i can tell you it does this is very unpleasant

29:05

you feel like you're traveling and chanting but

29:08

that's not the bit that messrs

29:10

the matter is is that it's only told

29:12

king

29:13

that we make new knowledge and that we get to

29:15

a better understanding so

29:17

, simmons

29:19

mint be of as be of day com friends

29:22

run by great ormond street trust another

29:24

of the and big london hospitals alongside

29:26

that have a stock and it was meant to be a full

29:28

day on gender sassy months ago and

29:31

it was people from right across the spectrum people you

29:33

know absolutely believe in gender sell

29:35

some people like some who criticize it the

29:37

first of all the generous refuse to come

29:40

and then they started complaining and writing messages

29:42

about how we were transferred the next season tickets

29:44

and so on and then they escalated it

29:47

to the health health education england into

29:49

the government and the day before the events

29:51

it was cancelled and

29:53

and in i was dropped from it before it was cancelled

29:56

i was myself and honey davies arises

29:58

from transgender trying to dominate more than anyone

30:00

else along with caravel yeah as dot

30:03

the scandal at the tavistock see or two of us were

30:05

dropped from it because of complaints from other

30:07

people if i'm ideologues basically

30:10

will look that's the sort of thing that has meant

30:12

the scandalous continued and

30:14

i got loads of messages from psychiatry satellite

30:17

and and trainee psychiatry single go hide what he wants

30:19

to go to that one i don't normally go the strange events

30:21

but i really wanted to go to that one because

30:23

they want to know what's going on sale but yes

30:26

that's the silencing you know yeah

30:28

and that's what it meant why it matters in the children are

30:30

being several

30:30

because people like me have not been allowed to speak yeah

30:33

absolutely that is exactly

30:35

right and it really has highlighted

30:37

the dangers of censorship and the

30:40

, thing about freedom of speech is that

30:42

firstly you get to express yourself which is

30:44

always a good thing and other people get to listen

30:46

to you and make up their own minds about whether they

30:48

agree or disagree so it improves

30:50

the independence of the audience as well as

30:53

the speaker but also allows us

30:55

to think critically to shine

30:57

the light on things that we think of going wrong

30:59

with a which are causing problems and the

31:01

more that that is restricted and the more

31:03

societies pushed into darker and darker

31:05

corners and without that light without

31:07

the songs that disinfectant of sunlight

31:10

as as freedom of speech is sometimes referred

31:12

to to that's that's really important

31:14

and one of the things up before we move on to the

31:16

case of the heroic alison bailey and and

31:18

my for starters well and i

31:20

wanted to ask you one more thing on in relation to the silencing

31:23

process because one events

31:26

in there are discussing you meant take part in which

31:28

was called off and this kind of thing is happening

31:30

fairly regularly to women like you

31:32

and agenda critical women another

31:35

discussing you are supposed to take part in with take part

31:37

lavery and i wanted to ask

31:39

you about why you think people

31:42

like gray slavery pull out of these discussions

31:44

i reviewed gray slavery spoke on spike and

31:46

it was one of the most disturbing

31:48

books i've ever read and i don't mean that in

31:50

a positive sense at all it was

31:52

incredibly miss such mistakes in my

31:54

view it had language

31:57

and ideas and pornographic

31:59

images do you think there's a there

32:01

comes a point where the

32:03

trans lobby or trans are lies

32:06

have some

32:07

possibly deep rooted

32:09

recognition that their ideology

32:11

is quite easily exposed

32:14

and quite easily challenge and therefore they

32:16

call from discussion or is

32:18

it simply that they just don't wanna hear from women

32:20

and they sing eat alan joyce should be in the kitchen

32:23

making dinner rather than on a public

32:25

platform expressing your intellectual idea

32:27

what you think drives that kind of to determine

32:30

that desire to shock women down

32:32

if they raised questions about this issue

32:34

what you got one more thing about the and

32:36

the great ormond street they battle which is

32:38

that you know there are people who listen to this conversation

32:40

i'm having with you and to other conversations i've had

32:42

with the people who are willing to talk to me and they say

32:44

oh yes silence she's really silence yes i'm

32:46

loath to podcasts she got a book the

32:48

middle the top ten bestsellers last year in

32:51

in the to insist and so on stations

32:53

know

32:53

the of what has happened behind the scenes yes i

32:56

dot and recorded a whole one hour program

32:59

and then i waste weeks until they were going to put his eyes

33:01

and then i got the stupid email saying

33:04

air production difficulties it was in

33:06

the damn studio the when they production difficulty

33:08

is it's i did a full recording for australian

33:10

broadcasting am and they said

33:13

the same think the next day sorry they were production difficulties

33:16

going users done this to me the bbc would have done

33:18

it to make that they've never invited me on and

33:21

then then thing about the great ormond street one

33:23

is that that's who the psychiatrists

33:25

are listening to i mean they may or may not be listening

33:27

to this but what they need is their actual

33:30

conference they need their camps they cpd

33:32

they're consuming professional development to

33:34

include this so it's no good to them that you

33:36

and i are talking they need their printed professional bodies

33:38

to do this yes sir yes i have been silenced

33:41

and the fact that i managed to guess i sometimes

33:43

because the people like you

33:44

my free speech doesn't mean i

33:46

haven't been silenced strikes grace

33:48

bloody deliver okay i

33:50

don't think grace ever hundreds to have

33:52

that events from my point

33:54

of view was happens walls and

33:57

labrie tweezers i

33:59

don't

33:59

the one in every nice the had labrie nice it's

34:02

a very good reason because i signed the things the labrie

34:04

tweets disgusting but then

34:06

somebody as follow the screen captures

34:08

retreated into my timeline

34:11

saying and what what what labrie was saying

34:13

was that

34:13

he he he was coming to britain

34:16

to do a book launch and and

34:18

none of us and that myself judy been to

34:20

caffeine stalk whoever none of us were willing to talk and

34:24

so on she got confused and thought it was a different

34:26

trans woman casey montgomery to zoom i had before

34:28

said yes i will talk for casey was banks

34:30

out and so i tweeted

34:33

sitting on the how am i can dublin airport

34:35

waiting to come back from my parents really costly

34:37

i just you know i'm willing to of course switched

34:40

airplane mode and landed to find out what

34:42

i'd accidentally arranged to have into

34:44

basis bloody gray slavery thinking it was somebody

34:46

else and i knew that graces

34:48

never serious i would say that grace

34:50

doesn't just identify as a woman grace

34:53

identifies as identifies as bitch it's

34:56

a style it's a whole chaos machine

34:58

paying enjoying you

35:00

know being subversive thinking it's fun

35:03

and fascinating to be subversive liking

35:05

stringing other people along there's a whole

35:07

load of sees that behind the scenes stuff

35:09

in it's grace wanted me to be can i do every

35:11

summary and i just thirty refused i used to work

35:13

and events organizing and the speakers don't

35:15

have a don't organize the dates speakers

35:18

, tax on to details to the host on the host

35:20

organized rights to that was the first thing grace

35:22

wants to do waste my time running around acting

35:24

like a buddy secretary secretary

35:27

then i did say to the and

35:29

on her to kind deal for to hosts i don't think

35:31

this is going to go ahead so i'm really sorry about that

35:33

but they were willing to take the risks as they will be very be

35:36

and will be first like we don't normally have these events

35:38

stuff and i did keep saying

35:41

look i believe it when i see

35:43

it

35:44

men grace trying to make me

35:46

council i am calling me a

35:48

nasty

35:48

calling on heard nazis i'm used to us i

35:50

think on hard were genuinely ascended just

35:53

just oh the bullshit as i say i have grace

35:55

music so i'm going anyway

35:58

yeah to pull out because and the a made up some no

36:00

sense and got a free the send it is just messy

36:02

bitch stuff was just cel just identifying

36:04

as a woman that identifying as a really and there's a

36:07

teenage girl yeah now why you would do

36:09

that i don't know the i was a teenage girl once

36:11

i hope i wasn't ever like that i don't

36:13

feel any need to get back to that time where everybody

36:15

says drama drama drama yeah but anyway

36:17

that's grace yes absolutely that

36:20

is grace and grace and are strange

36:22

people if i'm allowed to say that and i don't mean

36:25

all people who think they are trying to bother

36:27

you the profile ones are very strange as it

36:29

i really strange thing to do to push

36:31

on yeah he yearns to stewart

36:33

said performances yes pretending

36:36

to be a woman pretending to pretend to be

36:38

a woman all nice to your face of grace yeah

36:40

i did not very convincing impression that i

36:42

don't give see get the feeling it's intended yeah

36:45

to be convincing yes some

36:47

weird performance art

36:49

hi a free the hit deputy editor

36:51

of spikes

36:53

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36:55

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36:57

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39:01

okay so let's move on from men

39:04

who behave badly he adams who are

39:06

cowards and , move

39:08

on to women who are doing

39:11

really important things and

39:13

i want to ask you about one in particular

39:15

or about what this one woman represents

39:17

in terms of the pushback against the

39:20

boss classes clamp down on

39:22

the right of women to express themselves in public

39:24

to put it in old style marxist terms

39:27

so alison daily daily

39:29

her people will as have

39:31

seen stuff about this case and news

39:33

reports alison bailey who

39:35

is a black lesbian

39:38

and a barista and

39:40

one of the sounders of lg be alliance

39:42

which is an incredibly important organization

39:44

in this far as i can tell the only

39:47

organization in the uk that represents lesbian

39:49

gay and bisexual people exclusive

39:51

me and and quite importantly

39:54

she took a chambers took an employment

39:56

tribunal for discrimination

39:58

in relation to

40:01

persecution i would put it in in terms

40:03

of what happened on line and and also

40:05

in her workplace over her

40:07

views which the ,

40:09

majority people i think probably share with

40:12

says that yeah thanks is immutable there

40:14

are men and women and one cannot become the other

40:17

and it's quite important that women have

40:19

rights and it's quite important that lesbians have

40:21

rights too i think most of these that most people

40:23

would say and she was partially

40:25

successful in relation to taking

40:28

chambers to task she was slightly

40:30

less successful in terms of

40:33

taking stonewall to task for

40:36

being responsible for has she was treated

40:38

but we can talk about us how to

40:40

use see the allison bailey case

40:42

in terms of it's importance in

40:44

throwing opened this discussion and creating

40:47

a new dynamic where people feel capable

40:49

of expressing themselves

40:51

so i think i paris my a for starters

40:53

case because they were both of the employment tribunals

40:56

and they really sets the

40:58

, is that once you say something

41:00

like the are says flats or

41:03

there is no such thing as binary sex you

41:06

might think that you can just say that in one parts

41:08

of the world's but it actually has implications

41:11

the other poets maybe not the ones you intended i

41:14

think that the people who talk about gender identity

41:17

and say that will

41:17

all

41:18

who we are dicks the gender identities are mostly

41:20

trying to be kind they don't

41:23

realize that it's going to win i can those

41:25

of us who are not confused about your sex or do not

41:27

feel uncomfortable i think they think they

41:29

doing the for the people are uncomfortable

41:31

around confused our oceans you

41:33

and they don't know says that

41:35

what they do

41:36

ripple through a whole system

41:39

all , rules and norms

41:41

and laws and practices

41:43

that do on occasion divide the sexes the

41:46

we don't need to divide the sexes and when we do

41:48

we actually really need safe and it's mostly for women

41:51

that we need the men can

41:53

i think a lotta men wouldn't actually particularly like women

41:55

in their changing rooms are watching the mother using a urinal

41:57

yeah but they're not in danger and it's now humiliation it

42:00

doesn't hinge cool sex crimes other way round

42:02

much more serious and

42:04

once you say that you're going to allow a

42:06

nice male per them into

42:08

female spaces where do you draw

42:10

the line resource it's not okay that

42:12

man isn't okay even if he calls himself calls woman secondly

42:15

how do you know there's another man is sincere and

42:17

the he feels like a woman he can't tell semi

42:20

a started to talk about these things and twenty

42:23

eighteen twenty nineteen and she lost her job and

42:25

she just completed a three year screen

42:28

a bit year process of been dragged through employment

42:30

tribunals school she took the case that

42:32

anyway she lost in the first instance you on his appeal

42:35

which that are precedents and established

42:37

the extraordinary i still can't

42:39

believe i need to say this the fact that believing

42:42

that there are two sexism and sometimes this

42:44

messrs protected

42:46

beliefs yeah in british law like

42:48

it don't see also true but it had to

42:50

police and then very recently she

42:52

had a final hearing which considered as yes

42:54

indeed she was discriminated against on the basis

42:56

for bunny cincinnati compensation alice

43:00

this case had some similar elements to

43:02

it's and that allison that allison

43:04

and m in the processes

43:06

being one of the people he says up the rgb alliance

43:09

she , aim at stonewall which is meant

43:11

to represent lg be people's interests

43:14

but once you say that men can

43:16

be women and women can be men you can no longer

43:18

to send same sex attraction because

43:21

the sexes become mixed sex

43:23

groups and a group that

43:25

that affects the most as lesbians women

43:27

don't then to be in a position to bully

43:29

game and sleeping with some if they identified

43:32

in the other way round really

43:33

happen and

43:35

this in in particular tweeted about this hideous

43:38

shop called the cops ceiling were shocked as

43:40

a decade ago now in canada so

43:42

the cause the ceiling is this grotesque analogy

43:44

but the glass ceiling which is this barrier

43:47

that teach women down in the workplace a manner of

43:49

amazon women are below it was a constant

43:51

ceiling is a lesbians knickers and

43:53

the prejudice is the lesbian keeping

43:55

the trans woman answer for private parts

43:58

i mean it's just unbelievable

43:59

i feel dirty even having you this but i didn't make

44:02

it up anyway alison tweeted that this

44:04

is courses time was

44:06

had a trans inclusion is a trans man corcoran

44:08

met tasks wrote this extraordinary

44:10

lesser to gordon torture chambers saying

44:13

, to be very hard for stem would continue

44:15

and it's association with garden course if alison

44:18

was allowed to stay there that allison be dangerous

44:20

that she would harm trans people who turned up

44:22

to the chamber's snow i listened

44:24

to a lot of the hearing i'm really was five weeks

44:26

source of just the sometimes drama

44:29

sometimes humor often idiocy

44:31

idiocy munich metcalf said among other things

44:33

thus things there is no such thing as

44:35

sex that are sex changes during our lifetimes

44:38

the trans women are not males or females

44:40

that any woman who complains about having mail bodies

44:43

people coming into their spaces has

44:45

to be a big us that there is no such thing as such

44:47

bodied you know just bodied you

44:51

anyway so and garden

44:53

course investigated allison partly

44:55

as stone walls and the have

44:57

to but just awesome independently cause

45:00

a decrease in a few others and it's sanctions

45:02

or on them to etc that they didn't reach the standards

45:04

that a barrister is meant to reach in that she's take them down

45:07

old wish did not take them to and so she

45:09

took them to court for a the if you things

45:11

i think sex discrimination and

45:13

he like been discrimination a belief discrimination

45:15

but i mean of as i quite right i'm not a lawyer and

45:18

she won again gordon court on the central

45:20

plane which was that is a discrimination against

45:22

her and she'd been victimized snacks

45:24

didn't get much in the way of them money for lost

45:26

earnings because she wasn't able to establish that were met

45:28

much there was much do i have lost earnings but she got aggravated

45:31

damages which you hardly ever guess and unemployment

45:33

rate the and yes and is only happens in your

45:35

employers have some to to spot yeah

45:37

and then she also

45:39

in the stonewall had basically

45:42

a favorite the reason that they had incisive garden

45:45

course to donald to donald all of this that's a really

45:47

high legal bar so basically

45:49

it's this gordon course

45:52

was say yeah you and you it's had to a friend's

45:54

what i do to nice and your friends said go and smash them

45:56

windows and then when then police arrest

45:58

you arrest you oh he told me to do it i think

46:00

they rescue not your friend you're the idiot who did

46:02

you were totals a garden course

46:05

we're fans they fans they reason for

46:07

it they did was time will tell them

46:09

and that was illegal discrimination the

46:12

decides to stay will got often it's talking

46:14

about like this like it's some and men six to

46:16

eight spaces that show receipts the hundreds

46:18

and hundreds of employers all over the country's

46:21

government departments police departments

46:23

hospital trusts all sorts schools

46:25

sign up pay them for money pay

46:28

the money for advice about there's city

46:30

equity and inclusion and we seen

46:32

in a court case luis su

46:34

seafood and you lose if you follow it

46:36

yes well woohoo stem

46:38

or didn't have to pay up the employer have to

46:41

pay off but that is the most winning interesting that

46:43

ever heard of a consultant my life get

46:45

pay us will tell you what to do and them and you're

46:47

taken to court we'll get off scot free and

46:50

you are less carrying the can absolutely

46:52

that's absolutely very good outline of what

46:54

happened and just on the point

46:56

about the cotton ceiling i mean to my

46:58

mind

46:59

it's one of the most miss optimistic ideas

47:02

of contemporary times i mean the nation

47:04

because of course the glass ceiling this the

47:07

idea that women are to a certain

47:09

level in the workplace one

47:11

nice to smash the glass ceiling in order

47:13

that women can move forward if you take

47:15

that so the idea of cousin ceiling basically

47:18

what it says if he smashed the cutting ceiling

47:20

it means lesbians have

47:22

to drop their knickers some men

47:24

who claim to be women and one of the

47:26

homophobic ideas of the

47:28

seventies and eighties and i remember hearing it

47:30

as a kid even is the

47:32

the problem with lesbians is they just needed a good

47:35

seeing to that was awesome what

47:37

was said about women who loved women

47:40

that that you know they would just lead astray

47:42

they there was something wrong with the myth that a good

47:44

seeing to that be fine according

47:47

ceiling rehabilitate that i do

47:49

in supposedly woke language and essentially

47:51

says there's something wrong

47:53

with these women a stay refuse

47:56

to allow male body people

47:58

into their private into their

48:00

knickers into their betters gusting it's

48:02

an internet

48:03

my legs as you're saying this because it just

48:05

disgusts me so

48:06

it is is genuinely repulsive

48:09

in the sand the allison bailey took a stand against

48:11

that kind of and see lesbian bigotry

48:13

and missile to me as something that i think is incredibly

48:16

imports and and obviously

48:18

progressive in contrast with

48:20

see as a trans lobby and allies who attacked

48:22

her who are incredibly regress sisters

48:25

words for what they're saying and it's conversion

48:27

therapy yeah and as i say i listened

48:29

to a lot of the testimony and catherine mcgahee

48:32

who is this woman who have been at the bar standards board

48:34

came and gave the most extreme the testimony

48:36

in which she literally compared

48:39

less be wouldn't consider sleeping with

48:41

trans women to fly stance africans

48:44

who object is to the end of apartheid like

48:46

she brought that up alice's barrister didn't

48:49

the and me back to it to she

48:51

kept saying you know i'm susan

48:53

reconciliation

48:55

and she said comparing it's the glass

48:57

ceiling as well so am i realized my listens

48:59

to her and this is it very much

49:00

the thing about times

49:02

she didn't see the

49:04

the emanation as from a guy anymore

49:06

as you know a privileged

49:08

greets nothing and or less privileged group

49:11

because if you do that you can't really see trans women

49:13

as less privileged because they're men yes so

49:15

it's clear that the man's were trying to get into lesbians

49:17

knickers or the privileged group and the lesbians

49:19

of lesbians less privileged group that kind

49:21

of abstract discrimination

49:24

into this free floating saying like of matrix

49:27

in the air and we all slot into it and

49:29

this is the whole intersectionality framework as it's been

49:31

distorted the

49:33

kind you think discrimination is

49:34

the leaves issue

49:37

that was eleven attacks from ago he was trying to say

49:39

she was saying i can it's it wasn't nelson mandela

49:41

went on and on about how bad white people was the

49:43

city tried to bring the nation together so

49:45

they got the call the ceiling index and a dick on

49:47

the ceiling workshop was about

49:49

ringing lesbians and trans women together

49:52

and it neglecting the find that that means a man

49:54

forcing his penis inside the vagina

49:57

of a woman to isn't interested in such a thing and

49:59

i'm not

49:59

pm but i still feel secure and i think about

50:02

the just it is absolutely grace

50:04

and even for people to talk about

50:07

mandela or apartheid in south africa

50:09

in the same breath as men

50:12

who want to have sex with lesbians

50:14

i want to pressure them to have sex is

50:17

just simply extraordinary and really tells

50:19

us how much the trans

50:21

lobby and those who support them has completely

50:23

lost their moral way it really is quite extraordinary

50:26

reality they are in a different universe

50:28

where words are real and reality isn't real

50:31

and where everything is just vast forces

50:33

and there's no actual people doing things

50:36

and you can see just change the meaning

50:38

the words if you want to make the world a better place

50:41

people i have no common ground

50:43

ways yeah and of course simulate the silencing thing

50:45

means that we have lost or common ground

50:47

seen on to

50:48

you when you agree with me and balaclavas think it's

50:50

gross is catherine mckenna talking say yes

50:52

presumably other people who thinks that

50:54

alison bailey is like glennon

50:57

you know afrikaners in

50:59

rampaging around south africa on trucks with

51:01

their guns trying to pick off black people or something

51:04

credible a she has to been in a bubble of monuments

51:07

the proportions the for many years

51:09

after end up and place that she to talk like that

51:11

i often think about the kind of millennials

51:14

and generation sad and when they

51:16

were growing up and reading their radical tax

51:19

and getting involved in radical politics as

51:21

earnings did they ever think they would be

51:23

in a position where they would be

51:25

waging a moral the

51:27

war against a black lesbian for

51:30

standing up for lesbian rights a minute is

51:32

such an extraordinary situation

51:34

didn't see her like that and i think that's enough that's

51:36

your thing about free speech being so importance

51:39

i think part of the reason for his for his hear

51:41

the ideas that you're not hearing inside your own

51:43

bubble very good for

51:45

me i must say the i'm talking to all

51:47

the different people have different opinions on absolutely everything

51:50

like religion brag say it's in

51:52

a politics and so

51:54

on loads of people saying things that i'd never thought

51:56

of but they're not listening because we're not

51:58

allowed to talk to them if we do too

51:59

i just see a thing isn't barriers

52:02

and salalah absolutely i carry

52:04

out a couple more question firstly just

52:06

sticking with a stonewall thing for

52:09

a moment i , ask you how serious

52:11

this problem has become i think you outlined very

52:14

well that the fact that even though

52:16

it is that the stonewall is presenting

52:18

the allison bailey case as a victory

52:20

is completely surreal because obviously

52:23

you know as and by these chambers

52:25

has i think been publicly

52:27

embarrassed and deservedly so the how

52:29

he treated alison bailey but also

52:32

stonewall is not in good

52:34

standing at the moment and that is partly

52:36

down to the heroic efforts

52:38

of alison bailey and other people

52:41

including some of the form of founders of stumble

52:43

through a now speaking out against sitting and calling

52:46

into question what you describe their which is

52:48

it's turn away from defending

52:51

the rights of same sex attractive people

52:53

towards this eccentric ideology

52:56

which says you can choose your sex and you can be anything

52:58

you want and a man can be a lesbian

53:00

essentially have we now

53:02

arrived at arrived situation where

53:04

stonewall which is

53:07

started life as started life gay rights

53:09

movement

53:10

now

53:12

homophobic movement even if it's

53:14

accidental even if it's unwitting

53:16

but if you find yourself in a situation

53:19

where you are saying two gay men

53:22

does a problem if you're only attracted

53:24

to men and you've seen to lesbians in

53:26

particular there's a problem is you only

53:28

attracted to women that

53:30

is the kind of thing that used to be set

53:33

by the homophobic tabloid

53:35

press in the nineteen eighties or

53:37

bible buses and religious fundamentalists it's

53:40

now being said by stonewall inn

53:42

kind of politically correct language so is

53:44

as so more really reached of moment now

53:46

we're completely transgressed it's original

53:49

origins and has become something

53:51

very very

53:51

absolutely i think it's a bit like that

53:54

doc i think it's on rescue of will say

53:56

in twenty fifteen was when is added city

53:58

to lgbt

53:59

the

54:00

and since then everybody

54:02

agreed has last

54:04

the former ceo and recent

54:07

surname yes and when she read resigned

54:09

i happen to know that see access to search was extremely

54:12

difficult to replace her

54:13

and i know a game and or other prominent

54:15

game

54:15

he was approached by the the executive

54:17

search team and in

54:19

his first sympathetic to my ideas and he said

54:22

he told me afterwards that he said some is there any flanks

54:24

on the trans they said

54:26

no none at all i'm in it's amazing

54:29

man to find somebody that an interim ceo

54:31

and now nancy tell he is there and i mean she actually

54:34

used the phrase sexual racism for

54:36

lesbians who she she literally

54:39

likens it to that's she likens m

54:41

gender critical women like myself to anti semite

54:43

com

54:44

the not be woman she the married lesbian woman you

54:47

should know better than this but infer

54:49

assurances and in her impressed and

54:51

in her organizations impacts in think

54:53

it's just a matter of simple foods

54:56

the result of homophobia i don't think it's intended

54:59

to be i think that's what it is thanks so

55:01

, mean i would personally be very glad

55:04

to see the bridge to stay more the same way that we're seeing the back

55:06

the tavistock and costs and it's what comes next

55:08

day not the only organization that offer terrible training

55:10

to employers that's going to get into received

55:13

the not the only one the go into schools and teach children

55:15

nonsense and co bad ideas and their

55:17

heads and make them uncomfortable but themselves

55:21

can we see them as like come in a once once going

55:23

to eat has taken root in your garden and it's everywhere

55:26

you can't just chop off the top of it's you better get

55:28

right down and guess as all the rooms so we need a real

55:30

thoroughgoing clean aims in

55:33

institutions and that's gonna take

55:35

time some it's you could do quite quickly

55:37

like to the dsc would stand up say

55:40

you know no more this indoctrination and

55:42

schools and back to having single sex

55:44

toilets snow boys and girls school sports

55:47

you could see it happening but teachers would resist

55:49

but anyway just after lay down to

55:51

the or you'd have to changes

55:53

in sports is have

55:54

stop doing this very ideological health

55:57

care that most of all what you need you need

55:59

employers to

55:59

the fear of god put in them by

56:02

a bunch more cases like this the amazon

56:04

if he saw there was a first instance employment tribunal

56:06

chase in sheffield at a hospital

56:08

trusts their a week or two ago incredibly

56:10

a trans woman sub like was

56:12

told when he started working there that he could use the women's

56:14

changing rooms and he took to using his the insistence

56:17

on and women were told

56:19

beforehand that they would not be allowed to complain

56:22

that if they did they'd be disciplined squat and

56:24

then it was a key is that there was a major case taken

56:26

by this

56:27

you can play on lots and lots of grains

56:29

i can't remember all

56:30

this but anyways and have to

56:32

trust was silent to have discriminated against

56:34

him by allowing people complain and

56:37

into judgment was it says was

56:40

we think that assist gender woman that's

56:42

the stupid expression for non transgender woman

56:44

or woman real woman it assists gender

56:46

woman had taken her clothes off and the changing rooms

56:49

nobody will

56:49

the projected i mean again no shit sherlock

56:51

christian i can't believe i'm happy to say be stupid

56:54

sentences so yes that was that was framed

56:56

as discrimination s so yeah we just don't

56:58

have to go and have inside

56:59

just not got and that isn't the first instance

57:02

so doesn't set a precedent

57:03

but all around the place or miss

57:05

education judges making these silly decisions

57:08

on the basis far as i can tell of just words

57:10

like to be say this man is a woman okay what

57:12

you can go into an exchange morons the

57:14

material reality as he's as man yeah and that's

57:17

why you can't go into the women's changing rooms yes

57:19

the language has everyone so confused

57:21

that i think it's gonna take a long

57:22

i'm to clean up but yes getting rid of stone

57:24

will be a good start that brings me on my

57:26

face of a question i wanted to ask you about

57:29

material reality which you'd discuss

57:31

the great deal in your in your book

57:33

which people should read and language

57:36

and d d kind of

57:38

shifting a part of those two things

57:40

over the past few years and

57:42

you describe dad the fact that if we

57:44

accept that accept man can

57:46

be can woman and literally and woman trans

57:49

women are women as the mantra goes

57:51

then it makes sense that he should be allowed

57:54

into allowed woman's changing room into domestic

57:56

violence shelters into women's prisons

57:58

and prisons on and are the case of the l

58:00

a stall in america where

58:03

a man was found to be wandering around

58:05

in the woman's changing area in

58:07

a state of arousal according to

58:09

reports according to the women who saw him

58:12

i wrote at the time to this is increasingly

58:14

like a slashes rights movement

58:16

this is the it this is essentially the rights

58:18

of men to undress themselves in front

58:20

of women and girls one of the people

58:22

who saw him was a go and

58:25

, pretty extraordinary but this

58:27

brings me to one of the points

58:29

i've arrived that over the past couple of years and

58:31

i've been influenced i've been in part by

58:34

cabbage a keen to i hadn't numerous

58:36

discussions with over the past two years about

58:38

pronoun use and she told

58:40

me off many years ago for

58:43

using preferred pronouns and her argument

58:45

was that if you dot

58:47

dot language then you are really

58:50

settling into the warping of

58:53

material reality by those who think

58:55

they control can control how we think

58:57

how we speak and how express ourselves so

59:00

he mentioned earlier about the problem of on

59:02

social media you cannot say

59:04

that leah thomas is thomas man by the way you

59:06

are perfectly at liberty to say on this podcast

59:09

and that's and real problem isn't that if you cannot

59:12

use the right language to describe

59:14

things and to cool things out and to say how

59:16

the world is then we will go

59:18

further down this route of

59:20

warping reality itself says quite important

59:23

isn't it that we don't use preferred

59:25

pronouns in the we do use the language

59:28

that is appropriate to the person in

59:30

the situation we're talking about yeah i've

59:32

moved along way on pronouns to and i suspect

59:34

the telly would have given out to me the same way sixty

59:36

of the same time as a huge respect for her

59:39

i try not to be authority

59:40

syrian in any way so i have friends

59:42

he still wants to use preferred pronouns

59:45

in particular for trans people who were nos

59:47

transgressing other people's boundaries are not trying

59:49

to force themselves into places they shouldn't be unless

59:52

, have to i don't anymore and

59:54

it's not exactly because of the reality

59:57

warping nature of things though that absolutely

59:59

is an issue you know when we call men women

1:00:01

and will be you see for them it's obviously

1:00:03

radically confuses people like judges and

1:00:05

politicians you see this and things that that sheffield

1:00:07

ruling the judge genuinely lost track

1:00:10

of the fact that this person was a man with

1:00:13

the woman's name and she the and how things

1:00:15

talked about see throughout you know yes i've

1:00:17

been thinking about this long enough that i can just depends

1:00:19

hold it's in my head that my objection

1:00:21

to the preferred pronouns is a little bit does have

1:00:24

you ever come across a thing called street perfect

1:00:26

know okay so it's it's a well known

1:00:29

site logical effect whereby you prince

1:00:31

words that are color names like b

1:00:33

l u n y t l l o

1:00:35

w in the wrong and

1:00:38

the thing is that we we read the words

1:00:40

more readily than we named the color of the of the

1:00:42

text so

1:00:45

you have to things going on when you can see that the word

1:00:47

yellow was fair but it's written in say read on

1:00:49

you someone to read all these words and to

1:00:51

say the color of the actual

1:00:53

a faster if they can under so much slower

1:00:55

and if it just isn't black text on the words

1:00:58

yes and so much interference so

1:01:00

if i have to that puts there are an argument

1:01:02

as to why earlier twins shouldn't be in women's races

1:01:05

why that bloke shouldn't be in that changing room and that shit

1:01:08

the hospital trust or

1:01:10

you know why you shouldn't talk about

1:01:12

trans girls going into the girls changing

1:01:14

rooms and school my a few

1:01:16

that language and i have to use those pronouns

1:01:19

stairs a whole x for cognitive

1:01:21

load just as i'm trying to remember

1:01:23

who's mainland who seem as here and also

1:01:25

in on i mean i done as listeners noticed

1:01:27

but i sort of as i came up to talking about

1:01:30

gray slavery i will

1:01:31

quite sure what scientists claim to eat

1:01:33

was in the way

1:01:34

crown and my sister and i did slow down

1:01:37

i should have to have i am i couldn't keep going

1:01:39

grace grace grace grace the whole way through

1:01:41

switches what lawyers tell me that they have to do

1:01:43

with their argument in course i do not

1:01:45

willing to pool the trans woman say

1:01:48

you're just going to be is the name over and over again it's very unnatural

1:01:50

semester cognitive load yeah right

1:01:53

allen my final question

1:01:55

the about the which is calvin

1:01:57

that you are part of which was the lunch with

1:01:59

jk rowling which caused a huge

1:02:01

storm because

1:02:03

women getting together getting together about things is

1:02:05

problematic apparently and i

1:02:07

wanted to ask you about that in relation

1:02:10

to the this notion

1:02:12

that the uk is tough island

1:02:14

which is said as an insult but i actually think it's something

1:02:16

so positive and suggests that there

1:02:18

is something that there is a critical mindedness

1:02:21

and a willingness to push back in

1:02:24

this country against some of the excesses

1:02:26

of the trans movement and some of the more

1:02:28

eccentric ideologies that we see coming out

1:02:30

of that's what do you think that the

1:02:33

groups like that one that gathered

1:02:35

up that lunch and obviously the broader

1:02:38

movement i would say of women in particular

1:02:40

and also lots of men who are offering

1:02:43

solidarity do think that did

1:02:45

that has been the decisive factor

1:02:47

has an has in relation to shifting

1:02:49

a louder this stuff and this

1:02:52

you and others haven't done that

1:02:54

we might not be talking about the tavistock

1:02:57

using down we might not be talking about allison bailey

1:02:59

when in her case and we might not be talking about

1:03:02

the broader questioning off why women

1:03:04

spaces are being invaded by man and wife

1:03:06

education is going down at an

1:03:08

eccentric road in relation to gender

1:03:11

identity and so on so matt

1:03:13

demonstrate that it really is worse

1:03:16

pudding ones neck on the line sometimes

1:03:18

as you and jk rowling

1:03:20

and others have done in order

1:03:22

to turn things around

1:03:25

improves society and make sure

1:03:27

that these dangerous ideologies cannot get

1:03:29

too much of a grip on how we live

1:03:31

wish i could remember there's a famous quotes

1:03:33

am about social movements which is something

1:03:35

like him and never dies

1:03:38

that dies that the group of determined people can change

1:03:40

the world indeed it's the only thing said

1:03:42

ever has seen so

1:03:45

i would say and

1:03:46

every time we had a social movement

1:03:48

or social progress it does start with a few

1:03:50

people

1:03:51

so i'm old enough to remember when game and

1:03:53

didn't come a time in my fifties and

1:03:56

when you look back in the nineteen

1:03:58

seventies nineteen a game ended start to come none

1:04:00

of the night and a sees that was the aids crisis and of

1:04:02

course that was devastating for gay men

1:04:05

but suddenly announced it it actually encourage

1:04:07

some of the survivors to come out but is

1:04:09

this a sources as nothing left to

1:04:11

lose and fury and you

1:04:14

know i will is something you can't

1:04:16

under the radar anymore when you are group is

1:04:18

being slow it ended in the nineteen nineties it continued

1:04:20

spit it's more each person makes it easier

1:04:22

for the next it's a very it's very like an

1:04:24

avalanche the early stages of an avalanche

1:04:27

so i think people can look now when think boss

1:04:29

has this old coming then suddenly

1:04:31

now that actually they've been

1:04:33

people working not me by the way i was i was late

1:04:36

summer in about twenty a scene specific people

1:04:38

fighting against us the ninety nineties as

1:04:40

a lesbian groups and particular noticed at first

1:04:43

because it was they who were infiltrations attract worse

1:04:45

and for just a few people in each person makes

1:04:47

it easier for the next since to mix my message

1:04:50

we have alongside the avalanche

1:04:52

you know the process whereby and

1:04:54

dry or wasteland arid

1:04:57

wasteland becomes foreign soil is

1:04:59

a sort of a binding bye week bye grass

1:05:01

and weeds first and little

1:05:04

grass seedling souls together

1:05:06

at the soil and stops the erosion of bit

1:05:08

more and in the end actually you've

1:05:10

got proper lens and he starts

1:05:11

become fertile so didn't like the my sort

1:05:14

of feel like each each one of us women and

1:05:16

as he say some men

1:05:18

when you couldn't make causes a little cluster

1:05:20

that's easier to defend against attacks like

1:05:22

when you run its

1:05:23

the hard and each person he

1:05:25

says something publicly makes it easier to

1:05:27

say something obliquely so i talk

1:05:29

and