0:00

everyone, welcome to this live recording

0:02

of the Brandon O 'Neill show with

0:04

me, Brandon O 'Neill and my

0:06

extra special guest, Julia Hartley Brewer.

0:08

Julia, welcome to the show. Hello, this

0:10

is a wonderful treat for me. I get to spend

0:12

more time having a natto with you. It's fantastic, isn't

0:15

it? We had one this morning and now

0:17

we're having another one this evening, so fantastic. We

0:20

like to put the world to rights but there's a lot that

0:22

needs to be put to rights so we need it longer. Absolutely,

0:25

absolutely. It's so good to have you

0:27

on. I think you're one of our

0:29

most frequent recurring guests, so the audience

0:31

loves you as well. So

0:33

let's kick off, I guess, by

0:35

talking about Britain. and what the

0:37

hell is going on here. I

0:40

think we're almost a year now into

0:42

the Labour government. I think it's pretty fair

0:44

to say that neither you nor I

0:46

were especially enthused by the prospect of Keir

0:48

Starmer as Prime Minister. No,

0:51

exactly. Even those who voted for him

0:53

weren't particularly enthused. There have been lots

0:56

of ups and downs, more downs than ups.

0:58

What's your take as someone whose finger is

1:00

very much on the political pulse? What's your

1:02

take on where we're at currently with this

1:04

Labour government? Well, you say it's almost

1:06

a year. I think, God, is it?

1:08

It sort of feels like it was yesterday

1:10

and about five years ago. I'm trying

1:12

to wish those five years away. An

1:14

awful lot has happened in that

1:16

time. There have

1:19

been a few moments when I thought

1:21

Kirsten wasn't as completely awful and

1:23

useless as I thought he would be.

1:25

There are few and far between.

1:27

I think he's not being bad when

1:29

it comes to Donald Trump and

1:31

then handling him so far. But

1:34

largely, I have to say, my

1:36

prediction was that they would be absolutely

1:38

awful in power and they have

1:40

lived down to my expectations. So well

1:42

done everybody. Well,

1:45

it seems to me that there are lots

1:47

of interlocking crises

1:49

in this country at the moment

1:51

and Labour is not best place to

1:53

fix them as far as I can tell.

1:55

There's the economic problems which have been around

1:57

for a long time and are not entirely

2:00

Labour's fault of course. There's

2:02

also the cultural aspect where I think

2:04

there is a real sense that this

2:06

government does this country down and doesn't

2:08

seem to have much confidence on it.

2:10

So it's a government that talks about

2:12

the necessity of growth and that talks about

2:14

the necessity of making Britain a better

2:16

place, but doesn't seem particularly well suited to

2:18

either of those tasks, I think. No indeed

2:20

again the number one priority was gross

2:22

and then Rachel Reeves announces attacks on

2:24

jobs. I mean it's almost like she

2:26

doesn't understand economics. Well I mean who

2:28

knows when she was or was not

2:30

an economist working at the Bank of

2:32

England or not at the Halifax Bank

2:34

of Scotland where she was in the

2:36

complaints department but it really really shows

2:38

that she hasn't got a scoopy do

2:40

about how this country actually is run

2:42

and the trouble with this level government

2:44

is we are talking about a whole

2:46

lot of people who've been in the

2:48

public sector their entire lives. Everyone who

2:50

works them, everyone. They have no understanding

2:53

of how the private sector works. I don't

2:55

think they know things like 80 % of people

2:57

work in the private sector, vast majority

2:59

of taxes paid by people working the private

3:01

sector. I don't think they know that

3:03

when you want to hire someone for, you

3:05

know, 25 ,000 pounds, how much extra it

3:07

costs to pay. for that number of

3:09

staff in terms of national insurance and all

3:11

the other things and all the red

3:13

tape and things. I just don't think they've

3:15

got a clue and I don't think

3:17

they've bothered to try and find out, which

3:19

is why that they genuinely thought that

3:21

the one tax you should actually put up

3:23

as employers, national insurance and the threshold

3:25

on which you have to pay it, we're

3:28

putting that down so that you just have a

3:30

massive tax on jobs at a time when you

3:32

want companies to have confidence and to expand and

3:34

they're sitting there, we can't afford to, we're going

3:36

to have to let people go, let alone. someone

3:38

new. They also talk

3:41

about boosting the economy when they

3:43

are completely wedded even more than

3:45

the insane Tory party was to net

3:47

zero, which is, I mean, you

3:49

can have energy security, you can have

3:51

growth, you can have prosperity, or

3:54

you can have net zero. These things

3:56

are mutually exclusive. It's not possible

3:58

to have them all at the same

4:00

time, particularly one net zero.

4:02

They promise to tackle immigration, even

4:04

labor. even Labour had to

4:06

get to grips with the idea

4:09

that people were not happy with either

4:11

the level of legal immigration. Thanks Boris

4:13

Johnson for that wave of people we didn't agree

4:15

to have, but also illegal immigration. Of

4:17

course, you know, as we saw the

4:19

figures this week, those gangs have been well

4:21

and truly smashed. All Keir Starmer had

4:23

to do. David Lamme is the foreign secretary.

4:25

Still, I think that's a joke. Apparently

4:27

it is still true. He's going to have

4:29

a little natter with Emmanuel Macron, a

4:31

little natter with a staphon de lion in

4:33

Brussels and everything. completely and

4:35

utterly fine. And they'd

4:37

agreed to stop the base. Well, no, they haven't.

4:39

So we've had a record number of people.

4:41

And it's always worth noting, know, the time of

4:43

year, but we've had more than 8 ,000. I

4:45

mean, that was just the biggest couple of days ago. There'll be more than

4:47

that now. New arrivals to

4:49

Washington who were paying millions

4:52

every day to house and will

4:54

probably never get rid of under this

4:56

lot as well. We've got all of

4:58

that in NHS that still isn't functioning.

5:01

Good luck to. I

5:03

mean he's probably the best of a bad

5:05

lot, but good luck to him. And as

5:07

you say, the cultural issues are where fundamentally

5:09

we've got a party of power. that

5:11

has no faith in the British people. They

5:13

think we're stupid and they think we're

5:15

bigots because we voted for Brexit and then

5:17

voted to get Brexit done in 2019. They

5:20

think everything in our country's past is

5:22

something to be ashamed of and something

5:24

to be paid for now. They

5:27

don't trust that we'll do the right thing

5:29

ever. We have to have rules to manage every

5:31

aspect of our life. And the idea that

5:33

these are the people who at a major

5:36

time of crisis in the world

5:38

and indeed in our own economy

5:40

in our own countries psyche that

5:42

these are the people in charge. I

5:45

mean frankly it's it's it's beyond

5:47

depressing. I just dream if only there

5:49

was somebody and I don't care what

5:51

party they stand for, it could be

5:54

the monster raiding loony party for all

5:56

I care. Somebody

5:58

who just stand up and say

6:00

this is what we need to do. and

6:02

this is how we're going to do it and yeah it's

6:04

going to cost you you and you more money but

6:06

we're going to get it done and we're going to rebuild

6:08

this to rebuild that we're going to get rid of

6:10

all the nonsense the DEI rainbow land yells all of that

6:12

nonsense we're going to get rid of net zero we're

6:14

going to get this country going we're going to be building

6:16

those houses we're building those roads building those nuclear power

6:18

stations those reservoirs we're going to get this country going we're

6:21

going to be training up our young people we're not

6:23

going to be importing people from the rest of the world

6:25

and we can do this it's going to take time

6:27

it's going to be tough and it's going to cost a

6:29

lot before we get over that hump But we'll do

6:31

this together. Wouldn't that

6:33

be amazing? And

6:35

there is nobody, nobody

6:38

in British politics right now, let alone

6:40

the Labour Party, who comes close to

6:42

being that sort of peacetime heroic

6:44

figure, which we really desperately

6:46

need right now. Well,

6:49

it sounds like we could do with you, Julia.

6:51

That was an excellent summary. You know,

6:53

I put this to Douglas Murray on my show

6:55

yesterday. said, you ever thought of going to politics?

6:57

And all the responses to YouTube page of

6:59

the video was, Douglas Murray

7:01

for PM. But

7:04

that's an excellent summary, I

7:06

think, of where we're at economically,

7:08

politically, and culturally. And

7:11

I want to dig into a few

7:13

of those things with you, especially Let's

7:15

start with the net zero thing because

7:17

you're absolutely right. You've got a

7:19

choice as a nation. You can have growth

7:21

and prosperity or you can have the religion

7:23

of net zero. And it seems that labor

7:25

doesn't understand that. But I wonder, do you

7:27

think there's tension in the labor ranks over

7:29

this? Because on the one hand, you have

7:31

people like Ed Miliband, who is just a

7:33

complete convert to the neo religion of

7:35

net zero and reining everything in and

7:37

shrinking the carbon footprint and all

7:39

the rest of it. But then you

7:42

do occasionally hear Rachel Reeves and

7:44

Keir Starmer and others saying, listen, we've

7:46

got to grow, even if it

7:48

means going against certain climate change requirements,

7:50

even if it means cutting through

7:52

red tape or even possibly green tape.

7:55

So there seems to be a tension there. And

7:57

I wonder if, do you think we're reaching

7:59

a point where it might actually become

8:01

mainstream soon enough to question net

8:03

zero? Well, mean, I've

8:05

always said that there's no way

8:07

that any net zero policy, that

8:09

2050 target 2030. policies

8:11

on boilers, on electric cars,

8:13

none of this, as they

8:15

will survive, you know, contact

8:17

with reality. British people ain't

8:19

going to have none of it. You're not going

8:22

to tell a whole load of people that they

8:24

have to spend 15, 20 grand on a heating

8:26

system that doesn't work, ripping out their cupboards in

8:28

their homes and putting a new boiler in that

8:30

doesn't actually heat their home. You're not going to

8:32

persuade anybody to buy a car they don't want.

8:34

I don't know about you, if and when that,

8:36

any of those policies did come in. And I

8:38

don't think they will fall full on. terms if

8:41

you could only buy an electric

8:43

vehicle by a certain year. I

8:45

mean, I will literally be stockpiling

8:47

diesels. That's what

8:49

the nation is to be doing. I

8:52

don't like it when people focus so much and

8:54

admit a band on this. And I know

8:56

the papers love to do it. He's such an

8:58

easy target because he's so... ridiculous, and he

9:00

should definitely cut down on his carbon footprint of

9:02

having two kitchens. Something about you, I've only

9:04

got the one. If anyone

9:06

remembers that interview, well no, no, he's got

9:08

two kitchens. Oh, how lucky, of course, in

9:10

his multi -million -pound Primrose Hill house inherited from

9:12

his father. I mean, again, if only we

9:15

all lived like that, if only we could

9:17

have these luxury beliefs and things like net

9:19

zero. You've got to remember that it's not

9:21

just Ed Miliband police in this madness. It

9:23

is pretty much everyone in the

9:25

Labour Party. It's pretty much everyone

9:27

in the Tory Party, Liberal Democrats,

9:29

the Green Party. Obviously, they're even

9:31

more on this. Keith

9:34

Thomas fully signed up to this.

9:37

Again and again and again, he's fully

9:39

signed up to this. I'm quite hopeful

9:41

about Kenny Bade not realising, as long as

9:43

it's Robert Jenrick during the

9:45

Tory leadership contest, talking about

9:47

the maybe not zero, it wasn't such a good thing. But

9:50

I don't see admit about lasting

9:52

the course, because fundamentally at some point

9:54

they're going to have to say,

9:56

well, we can either build things, we

9:58

can either have another runway at Heathrow,

10:00

we can either build houses, or we can

10:02

either have a nuclear power station, gas

10:04

storage, have Virgin

10:07

Steelworks. We

10:10

can either do

10:12

those things or we can

10:15

try to achieve net zero.

10:17

I mean, net zero is unachievable,

10:19

it's unpopular, it's unaffordable, it's

10:21

an absolute nonsense, it's accounting

10:23

meaningless nonsense that will impoverish us.

10:25

And that's certainly not viable.

10:27

But I think the excuse will

10:30

be that it's about defence. Because

10:32

fundamentally, we need those steelworks

10:34

for defence. That's why they've

10:36

been saved this week. We

10:39

need to actually have some

10:41

sort of reliable energy source. We're

10:43

not having to import things through cables

10:45

or gas pipelines from Norway or even

10:48

other friendly countries which could be damaged

10:50

and sabotaged by the Russians. We don't

10:52

know what is coming in the next

10:54

few years in very uncertain international times.

10:56

And there's just no way that any

10:58

Prime Minister would survive us. not making

11:00

sure that we are trying to rebuild

11:03

our energy. So I blame the Tories

11:05

for it, I blame Labour for it,

11:07

but I think that Ed Miliband

11:09

in a way is just the

11:11

sort of, he's the post -boy

11:13

for this policy, but the rest of them are

11:15

signed up to it too, because none of them

11:17

have bothered to look in the figures, because you

11:19

know as well as I do, you only have

11:21

to be, have the basic mathematics of a

11:24

six -year -old to be able to understand that

11:26

net zero doesn't hurt. Yeah,

11:28

absolutely. It seems to

11:30

me to be such a suicidal policy.

11:32

I mean, it really is about killing

11:35

your own industry and your own, even

11:37

the potential for energy security and energy

11:39

independence, you know, sacrificing it all

11:41

to the gods of weather, essentially. When I

11:43

call it insane, I must say every single hour

11:45

on my show this insane, we need to use

11:47

where it is insane. It is

11:49

literally like setting yourself on fire

11:51

and thinking that's a good plan. Yeah.

11:54

Yeah, and if a government doesn't

11:56

realise the energy security and independence

11:58

is a good thing right now when

12:00

you've got Trump doing the trade war

12:02

and Russia doing real wars and China

12:04

kind of looking down its nose at

12:06

all of us, if they don't realise

12:08

it now, they'll never realise it. I

12:10

want to ask you about another aspect

12:12

of life in Labour's Britain. So we

12:14

know that the economy is not going

12:16

fantastically well and the energy question is

12:18

kind of being... messed up by them

12:21

what about the freedom issue now i

12:23

get really scared on this question because

12:25

to my mind it's even worse than

12:27

i anticipated so we've got the whole

12:29

issue with two -tier policing and two -tier

12:31

justice and the treatment of some people

12:33

more severely than others depending on where

12:35

they come from or who they are

12:37

or what they look like but we've

12:39

also got the freedom of speech crisis

12:41

and even jd vance has raised

12:43

this with not just with europe

12:45

but specifically with britain where they're

12:47

saying to us listen what's

12:49

going on over there, what's happening

12:51

in Britain, the birthplace of liberty

12:54

in many ways, that you have

12:56

a situation now where a woman can

12:58

be put in the clink for 31 months

13:00

for writing a horrible tweet and lots

13:02

of other examples like that too. What

13:04

do you make of the freedom of speech

13:06

crisis that we're going through and whose

13:08

fault do you think it is fundamentally? Wow,

13:11

there's a question. And

13:13

I do think it is the

13:15

fundamental issue of our time. I

13:18

think it chaps into everything else, where,

13:21

you know, there's like Brexiteers being

13:23

castigated, you know, academics, you know, academics

13:25

in Nepal, if you use probably

13:27

still now, wouldn't sit next to,

13:29

you know, an academic

13:31

who was a Brexiteer. I mean, people

13:34

being ousted for things like that. Women. and

13:37

men being required to pretend that they

13:39

believe that a man can become

13:41

a woman and is a natural woman.

13:43

I mean, that's a freedom of

13:45

speech issue. The net zero, you and

13:47

I, climate deniers. Well,

13:49

no, you need to be

13:51

banned from the BBC because

13:53

you're saying something. We can't

13:55

actually allow people on who

13:57

are denying science lockdown. And

13:59

you know how important you were, the role you

14:02

play. in fighting lockdown. You the

14:04

person, longer table young at the Free Speech

14:06

Union, who persuaded me that early on,

14:08

oh my god, this is an absolute disaster,

14:10

you were absolutely ahead of the curve

14:12

on that, from butchery, everyone else I know.

14:16

And in terms of, you know, the

14:18

ability of people to say, but this isn't

14:20

true, this isn't a reasonable response to

14:22

things. The abject lack

14:24

of freedom to speak, people being

14:26

quite literally censored, I mean, talk

14:28

radio, we had our YouTube page

14:30

taken down. for interviews

14:32

with scientists. I mean, really respecting all

14:35

the University of Oxford scientists. So,

14:37

I mean, it is fascinating

14:39

how much immigration as well. Well,

14:42

you've shat down everyone who says, maybe it's not

14:44

a good idea to import the entire third

14:46

world to our country. Bigot.

14:48

bigot, racist, shut that person

14:50

down, deny them a job even,

14:52

deny them any chance to speak

14:54

in the public arena. That

14:57

is a freedom of speech issue and it

14:59

hits on to every single thing and I

15:01

think that's the point where people kind of

15:03

woken up to it. To a certain extent

15:05

I welcome situations where you know

15:07

Alison Peterson of the Telegraph has a

15:09

police officer turning up to a

15:11

door over a tweet and again

15:14

it was a mistaken tweet but it wasn't

15:16

racist, it certainly wasn't criminal. I

15:18

welcome the police turning up

15:20

you know and resting someone praying

15:22

silently. I welcome the police

15:24

you know trying to put people

15:26

behind bars for for

15:28

just simply saying they refuse to say

15:30

that you know uh or giving a

15:32

long crime heat instant record they refuse

15:35

to say that a trans woman is

15:37

woman because we need this stuff out

15:39

there we need this stuff to be

15:41

not he says she says oh i

15:43

got taken down on twitter or x

15:45

we need it to be the authorities

15:47

acting in the logical extension of this

15:49

as they now are actually sometimes in

15:51

some cases attempted to put people behind

15:53

bars uh to criminalize people for Well,

15:55

saying two plus two equals four in

15:57

most cases. And I think we needed to get

15:59

to that extreme, to that rock bottom. I don't think

16:01

we're there yet. We think we'd have to get

16:04

to that rock bottom to the point where people would say, uh

16:06

-uh, A, they had to become aware of it,

16:08

not just something that people like you and

16:10

me, which one about, you know, on air or

16:12

on, on, on podcasts or, or

16:14

in, in magazine articles, but you had to

16:16

be something most people became aware of from

16:18

page news. And it needs to be something that

16:20

people can get angry about and has specific

16:22

arguments about. Do I think I would

16:24

trust Labour to act on this? Absolutely not. They are

16:26

fully signed up to this. They think there will

16:28

be a much better place for people like you and

16:30

me just sold it off and were quiet. However,

16:34

however, I think they're getting to a point

16:36

and you can even see it with the

16:38

way... are affecting how Keir Starmar is acting

16:40

on this, that actually they are rowing back

16:42

a bit from some of these issues because

16:44

they are now aware of the anger. We've

16:46

seen that recent poll in in the

16:48

red wool seats which of course were

16:50

Labour, went Tory with Boris to get

16:52

Brexit done, they voted for Brexit and

16:55

then they came came back to

16:57

Labour last year. Well they're

16:59

heading off to reform right now they're not happy

17:01

but again I think we have to hit

17:03

rock bottom and I don't think we are there

17:05

yet but it for me this freedom of

17:07

speech, the battles to get back to what was

17:09

like when I was growing up, when I

17:11

was at university, most of my career and sure

17:13

for you as well, even more recently than

17:15

me, that is the fundamental battle of our time

17:17

because without freedom of speech, you can't speak

17:19

out on immigration, you can't speak out on

17:21

climate change, you can't speak out on transition, you

17:23

can't speak out on anything else. It's so

17:25

fundamental. And we need

17:27

the nation to wake up to

17:29

that. Yeah, very well put. And

17:32

that survey of redwall voters, I

17:34

thought was really quite

17:36

inspiring actually because you know the

17:38

red wall is revolting again and

17:40

politicians are terrified of red wall

17:42

voters as they should be because

17:44

these people want answers to their

17:46

questions. Politicians should always be terrified of

17:48

voters. That's the fundamental

17:50

democracy. They should always be

17:52

scared of us. Yeah, but

17:55

I can't remember who said it, but someone once

17:57

said that politicians should live in fear of voters

17:59

rather than the other way around. That's a

18:01

healthy democracy. So on the

18:03

freedom of speech question, I did want to ask

18:05

you specifically about the Lucy Connolly case, because

18:07

I know you've spoken about this on your show. Lots

18:10

of people are talking about it. This

18:12

also springs from something that Alison Pearson wrote

18:14

in the Telegraph. She really brought this

18:16

back into the public view. Tom

18:19

Slater's covered it on Spike as well, and

18:21

other people are talking about it. This

18:23

is the woman who was sentenced to

18:25

31 months for writing. What I

18:27

think everyone agrees was a really horrible

18:29

tweet. It was shortly after the

18:31

Southport riots and she said something like,

18:33

burn down the hotels. I don't care

18:35

if there are immigrants inside just whatever, something

18:37

like that. Nasty potations now. And if

18:40

that makes me racist, then it's Soviet. Exactly.

18:42

So not a nice tweet. And she

18:44

seems to have clocked that herself because she

18:46

took it down eventually. And

18:48

yet I think four hours later,

18:50

you know, four hours later. So.

18:52

But I think nonetheless most people

18:54

agree this was a savage. Almost

18:57

medieval punishment two and a half years

18:59

in a cell for something that she

19:01

wrote in the heat of the moment

19:03

Do you think that they've been men

19:05

involved in the grooming gangs you haven't got

19:07

that sentence? So there's the

19:09

whole two -tier thing as well which

19:11

you and I have talked about before

19:13

which is that you know people

19:15

who've committed actual physical offenses like assault

19:18

or even sexual assaults get less

19:20

time than Lucy Connelly did so do

19:22

you think that case? is

19:24

an important one not because she's necessarily

19:26

a heroic person or because she

19:28

said something important she didn't but because

19:30

it's so bad and it's so

19:32

surreal that it will just open more

19:34

people's eyes to this problem. I

19:37

think so and look I've been sort

19:39

of the usual criticisms on social

19:41

media and perfectly justified that I at

19:43

the time I said I think on my

19:45

show you know let her

19:47

rot in jail as far as I'm concerned. I

19:49

read the court reports at the time of what

19:51

you know what she had said and what came

19:53

up what was brought up in court and she

19:56

pleaded guilty and and among the things that were

19:58

claimed was that you know she had written another number

20:00

of other racist tweets she pleaded guilty.

20:02

I'm just thinking this is a this is

20:04

a nice little piece of work. I

20:06

don't I didn't think at the time it was 31

20:08

months at least but I thought well she probably would

20:10

tend to up serving all of that anyway. At

20:13

the time I thought I was I was quite

20:15

horrified by some of the reactions at that time and certainly you

20:17

know anyone out in the streets committing violence. I

20:19

think the full horror of what had happened

20:21

in terms of the what was going on in

20:23

the courts and in the police stations with duties,

20:26

solicitors, advising people look you know you're

20:28

not you're not going to get your

20:30

case heard for quite a few months

20:32

you could be kept on your mom

20:34

there's going to be no bail and

20:36

people being very poorly advised and getting

20:38

very poor legal representation. I don't

20:40

think a lot of us realized what was really going

20:42

on quite badly then but at the time I thought

20:44

yeah she's telling us I can ask people were actually

20:46

a lot of what was reported at the time

20:48

and I don't mean like what was on Twitter I

20:50

mean what was actually reported as court reporting at

20:52

the time was incorrect and that has been proven it

20:54

was Alison Pearson who exposed a lot of

20:56

that absolutely friend of both of us

20:58

I know absolutely brilliant work talking to

21:00

the husband and the daughter

21:03

and exposing that and they managed to

21:05

get you know transcripts of the interview

21:07

you know she didn't she didn't say

21:09

some of the things they said the

21:11

tweet said talking about again weren't racist

21:13

again you talk about immigration doesn't make

21:15

you racist as we know and I

21:17

think it's blatantly obvious that lots and

21:19

lots of other prisoners particularly women in her

21:21

situation she's a carer for her sick

21:23

husband and she's a mother of a

21:25

you know primary school aged child but

21:27

quite clearly these women would be these

21:29

prisoners first time a friend non -violent, would

21:32

be out by now and or

21:34

being tagged and being allowed out on

21:36

home release to visit at least.

21:38

And she's not being, that is clearly

21:40

a political decision, clearly something that

21:42

is unfair. She's been treated more harshly

21:44

than someone who has done something

21:46

which most of us would consider being

21:48

actual crime. So yeah, I very much

21:51

changed my view on that. I didn't think she should go

21:53

away for 31 months. When I said, hope she

21:55

rocks in jail, I didn't mean literally throw away

21:57

the key. You know, these are phrases that don't

21:59

have literal meanings. But she

22:01

in a way is a

22:03

good test case because most good

22:05

test cases aren't great people, as

22:07

in what she wrote was horrible. But

22:09

when you know the context that

22:11

she has just found out about

22:13

these children being stabbed and she

22:16

had lost her own child and

22:18

had just disorder. I

22:21

think it puts it all in perspective and

22:24

we've got a sentencing council that wants to have

22:26

it taken into account if you come from an

22:28

ethnic minority or with your trans in their

22:30

sentencing guidelines. But we're

22:32

not going to actually put

22:34

someone who's gone through a massive

22:36

trauma losing their child to

22:38

then obviously say something they really

22:41

shouldn't have said after

22:43

knowing about other people losing their

22:45

children. It just

22:47

has post -traumatic stress disorder

22:49

diagnosed long before, not

22:51

even how conveniently after she's

22:53

been charged. It's clearly

22:55

a miscarriage of justice and clearly

22:57

political. And

22:59

the point is, you don't

23:02

have to be a perfect person. You

23:04

don't have to have not done anything

23:06

wrong in most of our

23:08

eyes to be a good case. Yeah,

23:10

yeah. That's very well

23:13

described. And it does really bring to

23:15

the surface that thorny issue

23:17

which is another issue you're not really supposed

23:19

to talk about and if you do you

23:21

can be called far right which is the

23:23

question of tutor justice, or as you put

23:25

it there, which I think is probably a

23:27

better way of describing it, the politicization of

23:30

justice, the use of cases like this to

23:32

make a political point of the nation, which

23:34

is never what justice should really be about.

23:37

But you know, the example that always

23:39

comes to my mind is the imam

23:41

in a mosque in London, who shortly

23:43

after the 7th of October attacks in

23:45

2023, he gave a sermon in which

23:47

he said, ruined the Jews

23:49

houses, destroyed the Jews homes

23:51

and the Metropolitan Police took the

23:53

pretty controversial decision to not charging

23:56

with a crime. Then you fast

23:58

forward to the aftermath of the Southport

24:00

riots and someone like Lucy Connolly

24:02

is very much charged with the

24:04

crime and literally imprisoned for saying

24:06

burn down the hotel. So you

24:08

can say destroy Jewish people's houses,

24:10

but you can't say destroy immigrant

24:13

hotels. What about the men who drove

24:15

very near my home in North London

24:17

and who drove down the street waving

24:19

their Palestinian flags, drove all the way

24:21

to London from hundreds of miles away

24:23

to shout with going to rape your

24:25

daughters and your wives at the Jewish

24:27

people in the street. By the way,

24:29

they're my friends and my daughter's friends.

24:31

So I took that quite personally, as

24:33

you can imagine. They identified them. They're

24:35

on camera. They got the

24:37

number plate. They identified who they are. No

24:40

charges ever brought. Oh, it's absolutely

24:42

okay to say you're going to

24:44

rape people. That's absolutely fine. Personally,

24:46

I find someone saying

24:49

what this woman said

24:51

on, Lucy Connelly said

24:53

on social media, rather less

24:55

threatening than actual real

24:57

men actually in the street shouting

24:59

about raping you and your child.

25:01

I find that less threatening. Yeah,

25:04

so what happened that's an excellent example

25:06

and it's unbelievable or it's unbelievable

25:08

almost that they said about those people

25:10

well we don't have enough information

25:12

to charge them I'm sorry you've got

25:14

the footage and you've got the

25:16

car numbers you've got everything that you

25:18

need how do you explain that

25:20

two -tier approach do you think this

25:22

is just the I guess the infusion

25:24

of everything in our country

25:27

with identity politics. The way in

25:29

which identity politics now has a

25:31

hold of almost every institution. It

25:33

really does. And again, the community

25:35

cohesion being such a big issue. It is

25:37

absolutely extraordinary. We saw that we knew that even

25:39

with the riots, you know, the Hare Hills

25:41

riot that went on just a couple of weeks

25:43

before the South Port riots. mean, absolutely appalling

25:45

behaviour. The police just went, oh, this is too

25:48

much. We're out of here. Very different reaction

25:50

to white people who were

25:52

rioting outrageously after

25:54

South Port. And

25:56

then a large group of Muslim men

25:58

with baseball bats and weapons saying, we're

26:00

going to defend our neighborhood

26:02

in a very aggressive way. Being

26:04

told by the police, could you take your weapons

26:07

back to the mosque, please? I mean, this actually

26:09

happened. It's mind blowing. Look,

26:11

it is two -tier, it is political, and I think

26:13

it comes from very much on high. I know

26:15

a lot of police officers, friends of police officers,

26:17

I went to someone's party and there were almost

26:19

about six coppers I was standing talking to, and

26:21

they were all like, you know, in their late

26:23

40s, early 50s, they're all talking about, they cannot

26:25

wait to retire, they are counting down the weeks

26:27

and the months till they can retire, get their

26:29

pension and leave, because then it's no longer the

26:31

job it used to be, and they're sent to

26:33

do things like, you know, go to a

26:35

journalist's house about things and not actually able to

26:37

do the policing they want to do, actually

26:40

help people. make sure the communities are safe

26:42

and nab criminals and the like. And

26:44

that's the thing, it's coming from on high and

26:46

that's because of the politicization of... the judiciary,

26:48

the police, probation

26:50

service, everybody. Basically, you

26:53

don't get ahead in any of

26:55

these organizations unless you sign

26:57

up to the whole DEI, diversity,

26:59

equity, inclusion, and stuff. You don't

27:01

sign up to all of those. If you

27:03

do, if you do, it's about any of that

27:05

stuff, you're out. You're never, you are never

27:07

going to get promoted. So you have to play

27:09

along with it. And those the people, it's

27:11

the same with the NHS, it's the same with

27:13

social services, it's the same in HR, it's

27:15

the same in private and public sector. It is

27:18

absolutely... us he's got a stranglehold on the

27:20

entire public sector and large parts of

27:22

the private sector as well and

27:24

that need I mean we need to

27:26

go Trump style sacking everyone involved

27:28

I mean I would genuinely I would

27:30

have a complete clear I would have a

27:32

sort of you're all you're all out and

27:35

then we will interview and find out what

27:37

you really think later on. I'd like to

27:39

see your private messages saying you don't really

27:41

believe this stuff. If you genuinely believe as we

27:43

discovered in the last week that you

27:45

should be hiring police officers based on the

27:47

color of their skin and that's fine or

27:49

all the you know NHS bosses should be

27:51

cross -tracking people because of the color of their skin. I

27:54

just don't think you have any business any business

27:56

being a public sector I mean or in any

27:58

job at all I think I think I

28:01

think you're racist. oh I thought that

28:03

was a bad thing a little while ago

28:05

suddenly now it's successful because it's right kind

28:07

of racism against the right people and it's

28:09

just it's it's not good for anyone it's

28:11

not good for white people certainly it's definitely

28:13

not good white working class boys the ones

28:15

who are most discriminated against this country and

28:17

it's definitely not good for anyone from

28:19

an ethnic minority of any kind to have

28:22

this this this hanging over them oh you

28:24

hear on a quota as opposed to merit.

28:26

This undermines everything

28:28

about meritocracy, about fairness.

28:30

And talk about this for the

28:32

one thing the British people stand for,

28:35

it's a sense of fair play. People

28:37

want to feel things are fair. It

28:39

doesn't feel fair with two -tiered policing. It

28:41

doesn't feel fair with two -tiered justice and

28:43

sentencing. It certainly doesn't feel fair with what

28:45

you've got police sort of going out. And

28:49

even there, even the people, how they're being hired, but also

28:51

how they are treating people is based on

28:53

your color, your sexuality, whether

28:56

you identify as trans or

28:58

not, or what your political views

29:00

are. And that just has to stop.

29:02

I mean, it simply cannot

29:04

be acceptable that that happens.

29:06

But how the hell we

29:08

end that? without

29:11

literally clearing everybody out and

29:13

starting again. I don't know.

29:15

At this point, it's gone so far. I

29:18

just don't know. I don't

29:20

think collecting all the rainbow lanyards and

29:22

the Black Lives Matter posters up is going

29:24

to be enough at this point. Yeah,

29:27

it definitely runs a lot deeper

29:29

than that. call

29:31

us old -fashioned, we've talked about this before Julia,

29:33

but we prefer to judge people by their character

29:35

rather than their colour. And I thought that

29:37

was what you supposed to do. Yeah, you

29:40

know, radical idea from the 1960s, let's bring

29:42

that one back. I want to

29:44

ask you about wokeness and whatever that

29:46

means, it's a very broad category, but

29:48

one issue in particular that you speak

29:50

about so brilliantly, and I know you've

29:52

got a huge following on this question,

29:54

which is the trans question. And

29:57

I sometimes find myself thinking we've

29:59

definitely reached peak woke. We're

30:02

now getting to that for a few

30:04

years now. I know I'm I'm ever

30:06

the optimist and I sometimes think we're

30:08

getting to a situation where we're going

30:10

to look back over the past 10

30:12

years and say, what the hell were

30:14

we playing at? But then you read

30:16

about and you see photographs of an

30:18

all male women's final in pool

30:20

and you just think, OK, right, we're

30:22

right back to square one. So what did

30:24

you make of that case? because I think

30:27

that really did open a lot of people's

30:29

eyes. And what do you think of what's

30:31

happening with the trans question more broadly? Well,

30:33

I mean, actually, there's an industry

30:35

in Supreme Court case. There's a

30:37

ruling on Wednesday about pretty much

30:39

the definition of what a woman

30:41

is. And we'll see how well much that helps

30:43

or not. And does having a piece of paper

30:45

saying you're a woman when you're actually a man, does

30:47

that make you a woman? I mean, the answer

30:49

is, of course, no, to anyone saying, with

30:52

eyes and ears. But there we

30:54

are. We'll see how that goes. Yeah.

30:58

Again, I think it's one of those things.

31:00

We needed to go to rock bottom. We

31:02

need we need the absurdity of watching a

31:04

man, the horror of watching a man punching

31:06

a woman in the face in the boxing

31:08

final of a women's boxing final in the

31:10

Olympics. I think we needed to have that

31:12

on on television at prime time for people to

31:14

go, oh, is this a good idea? Because

31:16

we had them. We had the weight lift

31:18

a few years ago, didn't we? But that

31:20

doesn't matter because she never becomes he didn't

31:22

didn't get through. So it was OK. What's

31:24

the big deal? It's just one or two.

31:26

But when you see every sports. happened in

31:28

dance, it's happened in swimming, it's in cricket,

31:32

across the board in the lower levels, sports

31:34

in the top the league, sports, it's in

31:36

athletics, it's everywhere. But then, you know,

31:38

in pool, but what makes me, the number of people

31:40

who say, oh, I don't see why you're getting advantage if

31:42

you're a man. What, apart from height and strengths

31:44

and, you know, I mean, apart from all

31:46

the, you know, the span of

31:48

your arms, do you think that might help you when

31:51

you're playing pool? Do you think, I

31:53

mean, hey, maybe there was a reason they had a

31:55

women's category. I don't know. I think that was

31:57

part of it. Again,

32:00

the absurdity has to be played out because

32:02

the argument for years was, well, you're

32:04

all bigots and transfers. And what's

32:06

your big deal? It's just a few

32:08

people. They're not hurting anyone. Why

32:10

are you so horrible to them? And

32:12

then when you see, you know, I

32:14

mean, Sharon Davis is amazing on this. It's

32:17

not just the, the, the man who

32:19

gets on the team who claiming to be

32:21

a woman and the woman who doesn't

32:23

get on the team. And this happens with

32:25

girls sports at school and county level

32:27

as well. It's, it's, it's the woman, you

32:29

know, it's the woman at the top

32:31

who, who, who loses out on the gold

32:33

because a trans man, identifying

32:35

man gets that and then it's a

32:37

woman who would have got silver who

32:39

would have got and it's all the

32:41

way down and it's everybody who never

32:43

even made the team back at county

32:45

level there are thousands of women who

32:47

lose out every time a man cheats

32:49

let's call it what it is and

32:51

takes a woman's medal or a woman's

32:53

place on the team and it is

32:56

huge and there are girls who are

32:58

refusing to play because what's the point

33:00

or parents stopping them play because it's

33:02

too dangerous having a woman a girl

33:04

footballer being tackled by you know a

33:06

six 16 -year -old lad who's twice the

33:08

size and has muscle and bone strength

33:10

that is just way beyond your daughters.

33:13

And quite apart from the changing room

33:15

issue, you know, you're famous about

33:17

Leah Thomas, the man who was in

33:20

the US college swimming for the

33:22

men, but decided he was suddenly a

33:24

woman and then he could be

33:26

to the women. And magnificently, surprisingly,

33:28

he won. And he would walk around

33:31

naked in the girls' changing rooms

33:33

with his you know, cock out, you

33:35

know, not carrying a job. I'm

33:37

sorry. My

33:39

thing with sport was always the

33:41

real battlefield on this one. Not what

33:44

happens behind bars in a women's

33:46

prison, not women's refuges, which is the

33:48

thing that really got JK Rowling

33:50

involved, not girls toilets. I always

33:52

knew it was going to be sport

33:54

and you know why? Because women like to

33:56

be nice. It's not something I'm afflicted

33:58

by, obviously. But most women want people to

34:00

think they're nice and they want to be like the door

34:02

to accept people and they try and do the right thing. you

34:05

get a dad worrying about his daughter's

34:07

safety either with a man in the loo

34:09

or on a sports field dads don't

34:12

care they don't care who they're dads dads

34:14

will stand up and speak out and

34:16

actually what we've got now on the sporting

34:18

front is a lot of men saying

34:20

this is not right this has got to

34:22

stop i think that has been a

34:24

game changer and thank you to all the

34:26

men who are speaking up but that

34:28

has been a game changer i think yeah

34:30

it really has and it's a good

34:32

thing to It's fantastic. I've seen that. It's

34:34

wonderful. I didn't steal it. I was

34:36

given it. It's great. Good

34:39

advert for the mugs there. Julia,

34:41

I that's really true. I

34:43

really agree with all of that.

34:45

And I am a huge

34:48

admirer of the platform you've given

34:50

to women and men to

34:52

talk about this issue. It's been

34:54

really important. But I in

34:56

relation to you said earlier that

34:58

wokeness has kind of resuscitated

35:00

racism, which is very true. But

35:03

it also this issue makes

35:05

clear that it's also brought back

35:07

to life misogyny. So you

35:09

get a lot of sexist abuse

35:11

simply for speaking out on

35:13

this issue. Lots of other women

35:16

do of course as well.

35:18

And then as you've just described,

35:20

it's basically flashes rights because

35:22

trans rights now seems to mean the right

35:24

of men to walk around naked in front

35:26

of women and girls and also to steal

35:28

their medals and their trophies and take their

35:30

jobs, etc. It's continually

35:32

this is a theme of wokeness and

35:34

identity politics, isn't it? Where it

35:36

poses as progressive, but actually it brings

35:39

back some really horrible ideas from

35:41

the past. This isn't a trans

35:43

rights movement, this is a men's rights

35:45

movement, there's no doubt at all. And

35:47

what I really object to, and I

35:49

absolutely love the LGB Alliance for this,

35:51

is where tea has been just logged

35:54

onto the end of LGB. I mean,

35:56

being lesbian, gay or bi is an

35:58

actual thing, who you are sexually attracted

36:00

to. And by the way, people fought

36:02

for those rights, Stonewall was a wonderful

36:04

organisation fighting for LGB rights all those

36:06

years. And thankfully, I'm very pleased, I'm

36:08

somebody who campaigned for... same -sex marriage

36:11

and I thought it was really really

36:13

important same -sex adoption and things like that

36:15

massively support those things and that was

36:17

just about gay lesbian and bi people

36:19

getting equal rights with straight people what's

36:21

not to like about that in a

36:23

fair and just democratic society trans rights

36:26

can be a bit different it's got

36:28

nothing hey hey you're actually you actually

36:30

are gay if you're a man and

36:32

you fancy other men you're gay okay

36:34

that's what you are thinking

36:36

you're born in the wrong body. You can think

36:38

it as much you want, but you're not. And

36:40

we can be sympathetic and respectful. And if you

36:42

want to pull yourself, Sheila, a good address and

36:44

we go, I care not a job as long

36:46

as you don't enter my toilet or try and

36:48

go into a women's prison or join a women's

36:50

sport. If you want to just live your life,

36:52

I will be totally respectful. And indeed until about

36:54

five years ago, used to use your preferred pronouns

36:56

out of a matter of just kindness and respect.

36:58

Not anymore. I'm done there. That

37:01

was kind of the argument, but

37:03

actually it's become about taking women's

37:05

rights. And women's rights weren't handed to

37:07

us on a silver salver. I mean,

37:09

women didn't have any rights until about

37:11

100 years ago. Women didn't have

37:13

rights to get divorced. They didn't have a

37:16

right not to be beaten up or raped by

37:18

their husband. In my lifetime, in

37:20

my lifetime, it was legal for a

37:22

man to rape his wife. That

37:24

was not a crime. You

37:26

know, if you lost, if you got divorced, you didn't have a

37:28

right to keep the kids. I can remember,

37:30

I can remember my mum saying to me

37:32

that she to get my stepfather to sign

37:35

off on her tax return because she was

37:37

a woman and your husband had to sign

37:39

your tax return. What the actual, okay, in

37:41

my lifetime this time. So when women got

37:43

the date and women got other rights and

37:46

And you know maternity leave and and rights

37:48

a single sex basis to protect ourselves

37:50

from men because we don't know who are

37:52

the good ones and who are the

37:54

bad ones you all look alike We don't

37:56

know until until you do something wrong

37:58

We don't know and that is why when

38:00

women walk down the street at night.

38:03

They look round. They see a woman. Yeah,

38:05

I'm good. Oh, it's a man. Okay I

38:07

don't know if you're a good guy who's

38:09

now worried that I think you're a bad

38:11

guy. There is a reason why we keep

38:14

all men out of our safe spaces because

38:16

they need to be safe for us all

38:18

the time. So when

38:20

men who identify as trans, let's stop

38:22

using this phrase trans women. to stop

38:24

using it. They're not women of any

38:26

kind. That's my word. That's that's my

38:28

sexist word. They don't get to have

38:30

it. We use the word as men.

38:32

We get to keep our word women.

38:34

We're not a subcategory. We're not a

38:37

subsection. We are the only kind women.

38:39

So when trans identifying men, say they want

38:41

to be in our spaces, they're taking

38:43

rights that we fought for, that our mothers,

38:45

our grandmothers, and our great -grandmothers fought for.

38:48

And they don't have a right to those rights. This

38:50

is, as you say, it's misogynistic. It is,

38:52

it is, it is trying to take

38:54

some that does not belong trans people have

38:56

the same rights as everyone else they

38:58

just want to have even more well not

39:00

on my watch yeah brilliant i love

39:02

it when you go into your germane grin

39:05

mode it really it really gets people

39:07

going excellent stuff no the terrible thing is

39:09

I feel all the time I'm having to, I'm

39:11

having to dampen it down. When JK Rowley,

39:13

when that Scottish law came in and JK Rowley

39:15

said, you know, well, I'll go to prison

39:17

then rather than say trans, trans women or women.

39:19

I'm like, well, yeah, can I have the

39:21

top bunk? I mean, I'm more than happy to

39:23

go to prison for that. Absolutely.

39:26

Julia, I'm going to bring in some questions

39:28

from the audience in a minute, but I

39:30

have to ask you about Donald Trump. I

39:32

mean, it would be ridiculous not to ask

39:35

you. He's been, he's been in the news

39:37

a few times here and there. He's been

39:39

president now for it feels like a hundred

39:41

years, but I think it's two months or

39:43

something like that or three months. And he's

39:45

causing a stir. He's doing lots of crazy

39:47

things. I'm one of those

39:49

people who understands perfectly well why more

39:51

than 70 million Americans, including working class

39:53

Americans from every racial background voted for

39:55

Donald Trump. They are sick and tired

39:57

of having the mick taken out of

39:59

them by the old establishment. It makes

40:01

perfect sense to me. And I'm happy

40:04

that happened. You know, why not stir

40:06

things up? I would have voted for

40:08

Donald Trump if I was in America,

40:10

not first time, not second time up

40:12

against Kamala Harris where we were. Absolutely.

40:14

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of

40:16

people feel like that. But I think

40:18

it's safe also to say that since

40:20

he got into the White House, it's

40:22

been a bit kind of crazy here

40:24

and there. And I just wanted to

40:26

get your general sense of how you

40:28

think Trump 2 .0 is going. You

40:31

know, that's the thing. I always

40:33

knew. I always knew there was going

40:35

to be good and bad. Doge,

40:37

love the whole thing. America is living

40:39

on the never, never. I

40:41

mean, they certainly cannot continue to have that many

40:43

trillions in debt. It's non -functioning. They

40:45

have to get rid of a lot of

40:47

that extra spending they do. Immigration. Yeah,

40:50

if you're not in a country legally,

40:52

you should be deported. I don't know why

40:54

we're not doing it here. I find

40:56

it utterly bizarre that anyone would query that.

40:59

I think he's great on the woke thing.

41:02

Again, women's sport and all that, and

41:04

actually just saying to every company, every organization,

41:06

yeah, I want everybody involved with the

41:08

DEI thing out of a job. You're not

41:10

welcome anymore, sacking the generals who think

41:12

that being trans is more important than being

41:14

good at your job. Absolutely, with them

41:16

all the way. Fantastic on Israel. absolutely

41:19

spotted on Israel, absolutely

41:21

sound. And then tariff

41:23

wars, Ukraine. If

41:26

I hear that man say one more time,

41:28

millions of people have died been put through

41:30

the meat grinder. Millions of people have not

41:32

died. It's in the low hundreds of thousands.

41:35

That's awful. Most of those are Russian troops,

41:37

by the way, sent to the meat grinder

41:39

by Vladimir Putin, the man he seems to

41:41

think isn't fully responsible for the war. I

41:43

mean, only in the last day or two,

41:45

he's been blaming Zelensky for the war. I

41:47

mean, Well,

41:50

I'm responsible for my country being invaded

41:52

as a leader. I mean, utterly, utterly bizarre

41:54

stuff. I mean, you have to take

41:56

the good with the bad. There wasn't much

41:58

good with Biden. There was certainly not

42:00

going be any good with Kamala Harris. I

42:02

was hoping that some more sensible souls would

42:05

be there to sort of guide him on

42:07

the madness of a tariff war at this

42:09

time and to guide him on Ukraine. And

42:11

I certainly don't think the appointment of his

42:13

golfing buddy, Steve Wittkoff, is going

42:15

to help matters on that. I

42:17

think overall, again, given

42:19

the choices available at the time, that

42:21

was the best option. In the

42:24

same way that when people say anything

42:26

that went wrong with Boris Johnson,

42:28

well, you supported him, you voted for

42:30

him. I always point out you

42:32

didn't know how I vote anyway, but

42:34

given the choice between Jeremy Corbyn

42:36

and Boris Johnson, the choice was obvious

42:38

at the time. Yeah, it's, I

42:40

mean, even hearing you say that. found

42:42

myself thinking, Oh my God, Jeremy

42:44

Corbyn stood to be Prime Minister twice.

42:47

a crazy within a whisker in 2017

42:49

within a whisker. Absolutely crazy. No, I

42:51

think that's right about Trump. I mean,

42:53

I think it's just morally perverse what

42:56

he's been saying about Ukraine blaming. I

42:58

mean, talk about victim blaming. That's the

43:00

ultimate version of it. And then

43:02

he's actually wrong about a million of

43:04

those things. He seems to be reading mad

43:06

stuff on X that is from conspiracy

43:08

theories and Russian bots. And I don't, I

43:10

don't worry me when he says stuff

43:12

like that. Where are you getting your information

43:15

from? Yeah, it's it's incredibly worrying. And

43:17

then he does good stuff like the executive

43:19

order on women and girls sports when

43:21

he was surrounded by all those girls with

43:23

their beaming faces. I mean, it was

43:25

a very moving image and you can't the

43:27

the indictment of our times is that

43:29

you cannot imagine a Democrat politician doing something

43:31

like that for girls and for women.

43:33

But it's funny because they're supposed to be

43:36

the ones you care so much. Exactly.

43:38

But what I often find myself thinking, even

43:40

when even though Trump's doing some crazy

43:42

stuff alongside some interesting stuff. When people say,

43:44

you know, when the liberal media or

43:46

the left -wing activists say, this is the

43:48

worst thing that's ever happened, there's a lunatic

43:50

in the White House, I have to,

43:52

I find myself reminding them. about

43:54

the biden era and how surreal the biden

43:56

era was do you remember when they told

43:59

us that biden was perfectly mentally well nothing

44:01

wrong with him at all and then suddenly

44:03

overnight they decided actually he's not and therefore

44:05

we got to get cam camera in his

44:07

place i mean that was a really strange

44:09

moment in american history wasn't it the whole

44:11

biden was very scary well i mean also

44:13

i mean the entire white house press corps

44:15

just apparently just going along with it and

44:17

and the fact that you know joe biden

44:19

didn't appear from what we didn't have his

44:21

you know press statements from him or interviews

44:23

or anything for months and months on end.

44:25

He simply wasn't up to it. I mean,

44:27

the fuss they made about, oh, Elon Musk

44:29

is a tended cabinet. He's not

44:32

even in the cabinet. I mean... Jill

44:34

Biden wasn't in the cabinet, and she

44:36

chaired a cabinet meeting at one point.

44:38

I mean, it's utterly, utterly ridiculous. I

44:40

mean, what went on with Joe Biden?

44:42

It looks very likely that actually the

44:44

dementia kicked in, you know, before he

44:46

was even elected as president in 2020.

44:48

It's very obvious, you know, the Clintons,

44:50

the Obamas were very reluctant to back

44:52

him. Very, very obvious why.

44:56

But, yeah, I... I'm under no illusions

44:58

about Donald Trump. I mean, people accuse

45:00

me because I criticised him over Ukraine

45:02

or you've got Trump derangement syndrome. No,

45:04

the people with Trump derangement syndrome are

45:06

the people who just say everything he

45:08

does is perfect. Well, here

45:10

are 20 facts to prove that he's wrong on

45:12

this. You know, I just, I've always, and I

45:14

think you're the same as me, I've not beholden

45:16

to any political party never have been. People say,

45:18

we're going to go into politics. I think, well,

45:20

no, I wouldn't be able to tell the party

45:22

line very easily in any party. But the crucial

45:24

thing for me is I call it as see

45:26

it in terms of what people actually do and

45:28

what they say and what they follow through and

45:30

what their morals are. I couldn't care

45:32

less whether they're from the monster -raving living party

45:34

or not. I just, you know, if he does

45:36

something good, I'd say well done. If he

45:38

does something bad, I'd say that was wrong. I

45:40

mean, and I think if

45:42

more voters and more journalists were

45:45

a little less partisan, we

45:47

might get some more sensible coverage of

45:49

these things. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

45:51

That's very much a... a spiked position

45:53

too you know we don't like trump

45:55

derangement syndrome we also don't like trump

45:57

devotion syndrome and any kind of uncritical

45:59

approach to these issues is not helpful

46:02

um all right julia i'm going to

46:04

put some questions to you now from

46:06

the audience uh one of the great

46:08

things about these live hods is that

46:10

uh spike members can ask questions i'm

46:12

going to kick off with someone we

46:14

both know joanna williams who asks are

46:17

you optimistic about generation z rejecting woke

46:19

or are they too concerned with their

46:21

mental health to shape things up? What

46:24

age is Gen Z this week?

46:26

I mean when did we start calling

46:28

everyone by generation as opposed to

46:30

supposed to just their age? They

46:32

are too obsessed with work but we are

46:34

seeing a bit of a turn around aren't

46:36

we, the younger generation in terms of support

46:38

for policies and we see it across Europe

46:40

as well as support for policies which are

46:42

a bit insane. It's

46:45

very difficult. I think they've been so

46:47

ideologically captured, the same as the green indoctrination

46:49

that goes on in schools. By the

46:51

way, if you've got kids and you don't

46:53

think they've been indoctrinated in school on

46:55

any of these issues, you ain't been paying

46:58

attention enough. I

47:01

think it's going to take an awful lot

47:03

to take people out from that, because if

47:05

you have been told all your life that

47:07

someone who who doesn't think that, you know,

47:09

a man can become a woman is a

47:11

bigot and a nasty person and a bully.

47:13

It's going to be take a long time

47:15

for you to change your mind. As I've

47:17

always said to those sort of guardian Easter,

47:19

23 year old women who say that that

47:21

to me, I always say, and

47:23

when you have a teenage daughter, come back

47:25

and talk to me again sometime and we'll

47:27

see how you feel then. Yeah,

47:29

absolutely. OK, question

47:31

from Tristan. He says, thank you

47:33

for standing up against anti -Semitism,

47:36

Julia. And he says he'd love

47:38

to hear your thoughts. Should anyone need to be

47:40

thanked for that? Isn't that awful? Yeah,

47:42

exactly. A few years ago it would

47:44

have been seen as a very normal

47:46

thing to do. Sadly, now it isn't.

47:48

And Tristan asks, he wants to hear

47:50

your thoughts on why you think so

47:52

many public figures and commentators seem to

47:55

have such blatant double standards when it

47:57

comes to racist treatment of Jewish people. God,

48:00

I wish I could answer that. I

48:02

mean, that is the 64 million dollar

48:04

question, isn't it? It is. I

48:06

find it utterly bewildering. Look,

48:08

know, you've written a brilliant book

48:10

on this. Douglas Murray has,

48:12

you know, Joe Willis Simons,

48:14

I mean, trying to get to the bottom of

48:16

this. I found anti -Semitism, I

48:18

find any racism utterly bizarre. I

48:21

just think it's a weird, weird

48:23

thing to judge people by, you

48:25

know, characteristics, which they have so

48:27

joyous. I mean, talking about Jewish

48:29

people as both an ethnicity and

48:31

a religion. And

48:33

certainly, I grew up with some formative years in

48:35

North London. Suddenly, it just simply wasn't anything my

48:37

Jewish friends ever talked about. I've gone and talked

48:39

to them about it since and said, you know,

48:42

was this something you just didn't talk about, but

48:44

it was a worry for you? No, it just

48:46

wasn't an issue. I

48:48

mean, you've

48:51

got public figures on the left. They

48:53

are... worried about votes from Muslims, and

48:55

there are a lot more Muslims in

48:57

this country than there are Jews. And

48:59

let's say the quiet bit out loud,

49:01

we have largely imported a lot of

49:03

the anti -Semitism. Anti -Semitism is absolutely rife

49:05

in the Islamic world, rife in the

49:07

Middle East, rife anywhere with a

49:09

lot of Muslim population. That is a

49:11

matter of fact, and it's not even worth

49:13

anyone debating that. So it's

49:15

not just extremists like Hamas and

49:17

Hezbollah who have those views. I

49:21

think a lot of it is just, again,

49:24

once you've signed up at all to

49:26

this DEI mantra, to this idea of

49:28

intersectionality and the idea that there are

49:30

oppressors and the oppressed and there are

49:32

victims and there are bullies, once you've

49:34

signed up there and everyone is placed

49:36

in the hierarchy and once you've decided

49:38

that brown people of whatever sort are

49:40

definitely at the bottom and white people

49:42

are very much at the top and

49:44

that particularly brown people who are Muslim

49:46

are very much at the bottom, certainly

49:48

Western societies, that's the view. then

49:50

by definition, anyone who hurts

49:52

those people must be bad.

49:55

I mean, they ignore the fact that the

49:57

vast number of Muslims who were harmed

49:59

and killed in this world are done so

50:01

by other Muslims and by dictators and

50:03

Arab leaders and other leaders. I mean, they

50:05

kind of ignore that. But

50:08

I think it's just a complete confusion. I

50:10

think a lot of it, if you're going to

50:12

be generous about this, a lot of it

50:14

is a confusion about who's an oppressor and who's

50:16

the oppressed. And

50:18

then you combine

50:20

that with that long

50:22

-standing medieval onwards before

50:24

that trope about

50:26

Jews being somehow subhuman,

50:28

but also superhuman, controlling the

50:30

world with their puppet

50:33

strings, but also the root

50:35

of everything that goes wrong.

50:37

And it is the completely

50:39

peculiar individual kind of racism

50:41

that puts them both above

50:43

and below. everybody and

50:45

in control and somehow underneath

50:48

it. It is a historical

50:50

bizarre anomaly that Jews have

50:52

been singled out in this

50:54

way and I have to

50:56

say I've been shocked as

50:59

I'm sure you've been

51:01

that it has reared its

51:03

head. the way it has in

51:05

Western society, particularly on the left in

51:07

the way it has. And

51:09

my God, if I knew the answer of

51:11

why that was, I would

51:13

have already tried to do something

51:15

about it, but I find it

51:17

absolutely terrifying, bewildering and a source

51:19

of national shame. Shame.

51:22

I am ashamed that any of that

51:24

is happening in my country. I am

51:26

ashamed that Jewish people I know have

51:28

had family meetings to discuss if and

51:30

when they have to leave this country

51:32

for their own safety. I think that

51:34

is a source of national embarrassment and

51:36

shame that we should never allow that

51:38

to happen. Well put

51:41

it's appalling and as you say if

51:43

we had an easy answer we'd have

51:45

put it forward by now but carrying

51:47

on talking about it I think is

51:49

absolutely essential. Michelle

51:51

says, this is a good question.

51:53

Michelle says, do you think there's enough

51:55

talk about the power of the

51:58

civil service over our elected representatives? And

52:00

she makes the point that there

52:02

was a lot of attention on external

52:04

technocrats in the European Union, but

52:06

not enough focus on internal, unelected powers,

52:09

i .e. the blob. What would Julia Hartley

52:11

-Brure do about the blob? I mean,

52:13

I think there's an argument for explaining

52:15

to them their job title, civil servant. Servant,

52:18

you're the servant of the elected

52:20

representative. Again, I think we need

52:22

to clear out. I think we've established through

52:24

rather a lot of years that these people

52:26

are not the world -class brilliant Oxbridge first that

52:28

we were told they were. They really aren't

52:30

very good. They were better at their job.

52:33

Things would work in this country and pretty

52:35

much nothing does function very well. Yeah,

52:37

certainly we, you know, you and

52:39

I and many others, I think watching,

52:41

listening today, didn't want to be

52:43

under the unelected, undemocratic, you know, control

52:46

of Europe. But I also don't want

52:48

to be under the unelected, undemocratic control of

52:50

civil servants who are supposed to do

52:52

the bidding of their masters in master and

52:54

servant. And who are the masters? They

52:56

are the democratically elected politicians appointed by a

52:58

democratic elected prime minister by a democratically

53:01

elected House of Commons. Now, they may well

53:03

be useless. They may make the wrong

53:05

decisions. But I saw the same view, whether

53:07

it's a prime minister I voted for

53:09

or a prime minister I didn't vote for.

53:13

I may not agree with the policy he

53:15

wants to push forward. I think it's

53:17

a disaster. But if he has

53:19

been voted in, he's got a majority in

53:21

the House of Commons and he pushes

53:23

that policy and it was in his manifesto,

53:25

I think any civil servant that stops

53:27

him from happening should be sacked on the

53:29

spot, out, goodbye. In the same

53:32

way that a civil servant is trying to

53:34

stop everyone trying to do, you know, do

53:36

with immigration in the home office should have

53:38

been sacked on the spot. I think we

53:40

need a massive clear out and I think

53:42

we need to accept that these people are

53:44

politicised, in which case... just do it openly,

53:46

let's do what Americans do, let's just have

53:48

these people being political appointees, have people who

53:50

actually are on side with what the government

53:53

wants to do, because I think it's interesting

53:55

that even Keir Starmer has been probably shocked

53:57

by what he thought when I get in,

53:59

these people have been messing around with Tories,

54:01

but when we're ever in, they all want

54:03

to do what I want to do. No,

54:05

they're a power unto themselves, a

54:07

law unto themselves. And

54:10

they don't understand their democratic role

54:12

then, because they are not the

54:14

masters, they are the servants, then

54:16

they need to go. you

54:19

remember when they all said they were being bullied

54:21

by Pretty Patel because she asked them to do their

54:23

jobs? I mean, it was such a bizarre. Oh,

54:25

and Dominic Raub, if you actually go through all of

54:27

the ones, all the cabinet ministers they picked out,

54:29

they were all Brexiteers, all of them, to

54:31

a man and a woman. I mean, just

54:33

a coincidence, just a coincidence. OK,

54:35

Nicholas Strand asks, what are your thoughts

54:37

on Ben Habib and the integrity party? Now,

54:39

you don't have to necessarily go into

54:41

that particular question, but I would like to

54:43

hear your thoughts on Ben Habib, Nigel Farage,

54:46

reform, etc. Because you said earlier that there's

54:48

no one in this country who's able to

54:50

stand up and say, this is what we

54:52

need to do and this is how we're

54:54

going to do it. And I did think,

54:56

as you were saying that. What about

54:58

Marjorie Farage? What about the reform push? What's

55:00

your views on all that? He comes the

55:02

closest. I mean, for me, certainly at the

55:05

current time. But again, would I sign up

55:07

for everything that he's talked about wanting to?

55:09

No. I don't think I don't think everybody,

55:11

I think most people wouldn't sign up for

55:13

most things. Well, a lot, everything that

55:15

a party wants to do. I

55:18

mean, reform have had their woes.

55:20

And look, every single political party that

55:22

the Nigel Farage has been involved

55:24

with has had its woes and infighting.

55:26

This happens in other parties as

55:28

well. Let's not pretend it doesn't. and

55:30

the likes of Ben have been...

55:32

very much just siding with Rupert Lowe

55:34

and come out and be very

55:36

critical. And you know, the political road

55:38

is littered with those who've taken

55:40

on Nigel Farage and fallen by the

55:42

wayside. Now, I'm of the view

55:44

that Ben Habib has actually been a

55:46

fantastic communicator and very brave on

55:48

a lot of issues. He,

55:50

again, somebody put his money where his mouth is, he

55:52

wasn't just someone who just, you know, just sort of, or

55:54

I think this was he went off and he became,

55:56

you know, an MEP and the like. I've

55:59

got a lot of time for Ben Habib. We've

56:01

had a few run -ins on and we had

56:03

a very interesting conversation about what we should actually

56:05

do with immigrants who are in the water and

56:07

whether they should be rescued or not, which got

56:09

an awful lot of interest in the nation. Do

56:12

I think that another party will, you

56:14

know, can challenge? No, I don't. And we've

56:16

still got UKIP. I mean, it's amazing.

56:19

UKIP still exists, you know, yet

56:21

another small party dividing those on

56:23

the right. One of the reasons why

56:25

the Conservatives has been the electoral

56:27

machine it has been for the last

56:29

100 plus years. most successful

56:32

political party in the world, I believe, overall

56:34

in terms the amount of time it's been

56:36

in office, is that ability to be a

56:38

broad umbrella? I

56:40

don't think you can go into office. I

56:42

don't think you'll ever win power unless

56:44

you are a relatively broad umbrella now, because,

56:46

again, the public are in the center,

56:48

most of us. Now, the views that, you

56:50

know, Nigel Farage espouses a lot of

56:52

issues are actually my few centrist views. The

56:54

extremists are the people who think that

56:56

men could become women and that we should

56:58

subject ourselves to net zero and impoverish

57:01

ourselves and open our doors to the entire

57:03

third world. Those are the extremist views.

57:05

They think they're centrist. They're not.

57:07

They're extremists. are

57:09

pretty sensible on most things and they

57:11

just want a critical party that represents

57:13

someone that if on the right there

57:15

is just this you know salami slicing

57:17

of this little section vote this little

57:19

section vote they will never any of

57:21

them will ever win power and they

57:23

are going to have to have a

57:26

broader umbrella now whether or not that

57:28

ends up being included in the Tories

57:30

as well big question mark I think

57:32

that might be a bit too broad

57:34

given that half the Tory party could

57:36

join the Lib Dems put a yellow

57:38

rosette on and no one would notice

57:40

but no I'm afraid all credit to

57:42

Ben from doing what you know putting

57:44

his money where his mouth is but

57:46

it's not going to succeed yeah okay

57:48

yeah that's a good answer and I

57:50

love that point about extremism I remember

57:52

being called an extremist because I wanted

57:54

the Brexit vote to go through and

57:56

I was thinking no you're the extremist

57:58

because you want to stop democracy um

58:01

okay Julia the last question for you

58:03

um this is a good one because

58:05

it touches on I guess the nature

58:07

of Britain and the future of public

58:09

discussion in this country so Julie asks

58:11

Could you talk a little bit about

58:13

the BBC and whether it's been ideologically

58:15

captured? What's your view? You go on

58:17

the BBC, you're sometimes in the bear

58:19

pit there. What do you that? Not

58:21

anymore. I've clearly been with black balls.

58:23

I think after my last question time

58:25

when I pointed out some facts on

58:27

climate change, I think I'm pretty sure

58:29

I have been now cast aside. I'm

58:31

now a climate denier and therefore beyond

58:33

the pale. I did

58:35

a lot of staff time at the BBC,

58:37

any and every show. And even though I've got

58:40

a lot of people who were friends, I mean,

58:42

people I would describe as proper friends working

58:44

there in the political journalism and other lines, it

58:46

was blatantly obvious to me. And I still recall

58:48

as I was walking through the BBC the day

58:50

after we won the Brexit vote in 2016. And

58:53

if I had been Adolf Hitler goose -stepping

58:55

through that newsroom, I would have been

58:57

given nicer looks. I mean, I've got be

58:59

honest with you, I loved every minute

59:01

of it. I just walked through. Winkam

59:04

was having a great time. But

59:07

no, the advocacy ideology was captured. It

59:09

wasn't, mean, I think, I think the

59:11

Ramona thing, that was where it really,

59:13

again, not remain but Ramona, I mean,

59:15

full on anti -democratic immigration, a complete

59:17

climate change completely captured their views on

59:19

Israel, the anti -semitism that is right there

59:21

on all of those grounds, absolutely ideologically

59:24

captured, even down to things like benefit

59:26

reform. Whenever they need conversation, take space,

59:28

we need to perform benefits. They immediately

59:30

go to some single mother. Usually, by

59:32

the way, he's complaining about she can't

59:34

afford to eat, he's the size of

59:36

our house. And, you

59:39

know, it's utterly bizarre. It

59:41

chews better, someone more convincing, complaining about how

59:43

she has to rely on these benefits. But

59:46

why don't you talk to a taxpayer about

59:48

how they can't make ends meet? Because they're

59:50

having to pay all the benefits for some

59:52

reason, can't get a job. But

59:54

somehow, I'm glad to see you managed to afford

59:56

takeaways, if you like, by the looks of it. I

59:59

mean... They're captured on so many of

1:00:01

the key issues and they're so out

1:00:03

of step. with the majority of British

1:00:05

public, but they think they're mainstream. They

1:00:08

don't even, the vast majority of

1:00:10

people at the BBC don't think that they

1:00:12

are biased in any way, because everyone

1:00:14

they know has those views, and those who

1:00:16

record the views of the Guardian, and

1:00:18

even the Times as well, you know, of

1:00:20

the papers that they read, and as

1:00:22

far as they're concerned, they are the mainstream,

1:00:24

they are the defenders of what is

1:00:26

right in this country, and they're fighting, you

1:00:28

know, the extremist bigoted hordes like you

1:00:30

and me who are at the Castle Gate.

1:00:32

but they have no idea in the

1:00:34

world, the little milieu world that they live

1:00:36

in. I know the world they live

1:00:38

in. I'm kind of living on the periphery

1:00:40

of it. They used to invite

1:00:42

me to their dinner parties before they

1:00:44

realised obviously what a horrific transphobic burger I

1:00:46

was. But they have

1:00:48

no idea that they are living in

1:00:50

a tiny little bubble that doesn't represent the

1:00:53

rest of the country, which is why

1:00:55

they were so shocked by the Brexit vote.

1:00:57

So why they were so shocked by

1:00:59

what happened in 2019 as far as chance,

1:01:01

why they were so shocked. Um. but

1:01:03

you know pretty much every major event

1:01:06

they're shocked by Trump in America they don't

1:01:08

they just don't get it they're out

1:01:10

of touch so yeah it's got to be

1:01:12

tackled i mean i've never been a

1:01:14

defund the BBC person i would like to

1:01:16

keep a a state broadcaster that's not

1:01:18

beholden to advertisers but they need to go

1:01:20

down to a tenth of what they

1:01:22

are a tenth and and we're going to

1:01:24

have to have a big clear out

1:01:26

of the news again and again i don't

1:01:28

think you can just put one person

1:01:30

in who's going to change it they you

1:01:32

know if they're going to be political

1:01:34

appointees well We're going to share out the

1:01:36

political appointees, but the pretence that they

1:01:38

like the civil service or in any way,

1:01:40

you know, neutral and unbiased and serving

1:01:42

the nation. I mean, I think that's gone

1:01:44

well out of the window by now. Julia,

1:01:47

thank you very much. Thank

1:01:49

you very much. Cheers.