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the nards Hi, it's

1:00

Lauren Smith here, the producer of the

1:02

Brendan O'Neill show. I just want to

1:05

let you all know that Spike's internship

1:07

program is now open for applications. We're

1:09

looking for an aspiring journalist to join

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But if you have worked in journalism

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Above all we're looking for someone who

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in journalism. To find out more into

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apply go to spike-online.com/intern. You have until

2:01

Sunday the 23rd of February

2:04

to apply. Good luck. And

2:06

the whole narrative that, you

2:08

know, we're in... sort of economic

2:10

decline where the EU is sort

2:13

of sailing off confidently without us.

2:15

Of course that relies on us

2:17

not looking too closely at what's

2:20

going on across the channel. We've

2:22

got Germany now sort of reintroducing

2:24

border controls. Hungary is built of

2:27

Donald Trump-style razor-wire fence on its

2:29

southern border to keep out the

2:31

migrants. Europe seems stuck in this

2:34

sort of pretty suicidal energy policy

2:36

where it's putting net zero.

2:38

above all economic considerations and

2:41

is sort of happy to

2:43

lose its manufacturing industries and

2:45

sort of impoverish its people

2:48

as a result. Hello, welcome

2:50

back to the Brendan O'Neill show

2:52

with me, Brendan O'Neill, and my

2:55

special guest this week, Ross, welcome

2:57

to the show. Hello, Brendan. It's

2:59

great to have you back on and

3:01

we need to talk about your new

3:04

book. Your new book is called Far

3:06

From E. Eutopia. why Europe is failing

3:08

and how Britain could do better. The

3:10

thing I really like about this book

3:12

is like a kind of hand-grenade of

3:14

facts thrown into the discussion about

3:16

post-Brexit Britain and post-Brexit Europe in

3:19

fact. And it really kind of

3:21

explodes some of the narrative we've

3:23

been told, especially from certain sections

3:25

of the media, which is that after

3:28

Brexit, Britain became the sick man of

3:30

Europe, we became poorer. crazier, more hateful,

3:32

less democratic, whereas Europe carried on being

3:35

wonderful and lovely. And your book says,

3:37

that's not quite true, that's not really

3:39

what has happened. So let's get into

3:42

the meat of some of that, but

3:44

I guess I want to start off by asking

3:46

you why you thought it was important

3:48

to challenge that narrative. What was it

3:50

that compelled you? I mean, you've obviously

3:52

been following this for some time, like

3:54

lots of other people, but what compelled

3:56

you to think, right, I've got to

3:59

sit down and actually tackle Are

14:11

you looking for a Columbus car dealership

14:14

built on tradition and trust? Biers Auto

14:16

has been family-owned and operated since 1897,

14:18

evolving from horse-drawn carriages to the horsepower

14:21

of today's leading vehicles. We're known for

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our new cars, but we also offer

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an... Are

14:44

you looking for a Columbus car dealership

14:46

built on tradition and trust? Biers Auto

14:49

has been family-owned and operated since 1897,

14:51

evolving from horse-drawn carriages to the horsepower

14:53

of today's leading vehicles. We're known for

14:56

our new cars, but we also offer

14:58

an... that

20:05

plays in, I guess being an

20:07

albatross around the neck of this

20:10

institution. And you give a couple

20:12

of examples where the EU seems,

20:14

often seems very reluctant to embrace

20:16

new technologies or new ideas and

20:18

has this instinct to over-regulate them

20:20

or to be very wary of

20:23

them. You give the example of

20:25

genetic modification, genetically modified food stuffs, which

20:27

the EU was... scared off for a

20:29

very long time and you give the

20:31

more current example of AI and artificial

20:33

intelligence which the EU seems to be

20:35

wary off as well whereas other parts

20:38

of the world are kind of pushing

20:40

forward with this new technology. What do

20:42

you think motors that you refer to

20:44

as regulating to death? What do

20:46

you think motors that and how

20:49

damaging is that for the European

20:51

Union and its member states? I

20:53

think the EU takes a sort

20:55

of heritage approach to industry. It

20:58

looks at an industry in Europe

21:00

and the jobs and surrounds it

21:02

and thinks, first thing, this has

21:05

to be preserved and defended against

21:07

competition from abroad and competition from

21:09

things which are new. And, you

21:11

know, the US, where economic growth

21:14

has been sort of twice that

21:16

of Europe for the past 25

21:18

years, you know, has taken a

21:20

very different approach. It's of embraces

21:23

new things, and if that kills

21:25

off the old industries, well, so

21:27

be it. That's just what happens.

21:29

But genetically modified crops

21:32

as a prime example of

21:34

this, because 25 years ago,

21:36

and Britain in particular... you

21:38

know, were very well placed to take

21:40

a lead in that then emerging industry.

21:43

And it was effectively killed

21:45

off by EU regulations, which

21:47

made carrying out field trials

21:49

virtually impossible. So the industry

21:51

left, it went to the

21:53

United States, went to the

21:55

Far East, went to South

21:57

America's where a lot of

21:59

the... field trials and someone were

22:01

carried out. But at the same

22:04

time, you know, this was all

22:06

done, sort of supposedly in the

22:08

name of consumers, food safety for

22:11

consumers. But in the event, we've

22:13

ended up eating GM foods anyway,

22:15

because, you know, if you want

22:18

to buy Sawyer, and Sawyer's a

22:20

sort of product which is used,

22:22

particularly in vegetarian foods, I have

22:25

to say, well, you cannot buy

22:27

non-GM food sort of on the

22:29

non-GM Sawyer on the global markets,

22:31

because it's just all mixed together

22:34

as one commodities, commodities. So Europeans

22:36

often unknowingly consume. It's genetically modified

22:38

foods anyway. And they don't grow

22:41

extra eaters and develop cancer as

22:43

a result. The other scare stories

22:45

we were told at the time.

22:48

But what has resulted from that,

22:50

we've just lost an industry which

22:52

we could have been enriching us.

22:54

Similar thing went on with fracking.

22:57

didn't quite outlaw it but it

22:59

made it very very difficult to

23:01

conduct fracking in Europe with the

23:04

result now is we are we

23:06

are absolutely reliant on fracked gas

23:08

from the US which we're importing

23:11

in refrigerated ships liquefied natural gas

23:13

which has helped save our economies

23:15

you know, following the Ukraine war

23:17

when the gas taps were turned

23:20

off from Russia. So again, you

23:22

know, we're consuming shale gas, frat

23:24

gas. So we can't claim to

23:27

be sort of environmentally pure in

23:29

that respect, but we're just not

23:31

making money from it. And, you

23:34

know, our balance of payments as

23:36

a result is, you know, not

23:38

helped by importing a commodity which

23:41

we could be producing ourselves. And,

23:43

you know, there's so many things

23:45

like that which Europe has sort

23:47

of sought to smother and US

23:50

has embraced. And as you say,

23:52

AI is the sort of... big

23:54

battleground that Europe is currently fighting

23:57

through it sort of how to

23:59

regulate AI and again you know

24:01

it's taking this very very precautionist

24:04

approach which you know it's smothering

24:06

its smothering innovation. In relation to

24:08

Brexit Britain then because I think

24:10

your description of the European Union's

24:13

regulatory system is very well put

24:15

it's very well put in the

24:17

book as well. What do you

24:20

think explains Brexit, Britain's failure thus

24:22

far to make the most of

24:24

the fact that it has escaped

24:27

that smothering as you refer to

24:29

it? Because you talk in the

24:31

book, you quote Larry Elliot from

24:33

The Guardian who makes the point

24:36

that our economic performance since Brexit

24:38

has been mediocre, but it hasn't

24:40

been the full-on horror show that

24:43

was promised by the kind of

24:45

mystic megs of the think tank

24:47

world. You go on to say

24:50

that... It hasn't been a disaster.

24:52

Brexit Britain is not going down

24:54

the toilet economically, but we haven't

24:56

made the most of the opportunities

24:59

that Brexit might present to us.

25:01

And escaping from some of that

25:03

regulatory system is a good example

25:06

of something that we might make

25:08

more off, you know, that liberation

25:10

from a pretty sclerosis economic and

25:13

regulatory system. Why do you think

25:15

that is? I mean, partly, I

25:17

presume it's because we currently live

25:20

under a pretty depressing... ambitionless labour

25:22

government but across the political class

25:24

there doesn't seem to be that

25:26

hunger to remake Britain in a

25:29

new direction following our leaving of

25:31

the EU. What do you think

25:33

explains that failure? Well I mean

25:36

it's always the case that the

25:38

negative consequences of Brexit, the greater

25:40

friction in trade and so on

25:43

would come up front immediately when

25:45

we left. Whereas the... potential benefits

25:47

of Brexit would come in the

25:49

longer run and even then they

25:52

would only come if we had

25:54

a government which was prepared to

25:56

take advantage of its freedoms. And

25:59

you're right, we don't have. We've

26:01

had a conservative government. Now we've

26:03

got a labor government. And neither

26:06

have really shown much inclination to

26:08

seize advantage. There are a few

26:10

things. We've had trade deals with

26:12

Australia and New Zealand. We've also

26:15

joined the trans-Pacific. partnership with free

26:17

trade area which are you know

26:19

based around Pacific rim countries but

26:22

there's no reason why Britain shouldn't

26:24

join as well and what we

26:26

have joined. We've also made it

26:29

a little easier for gene editing

26:31

technology which is the sort of

26:33

the onward development of genetic modification

26:36

if you like is the sort

26:38

of new new version of that

26:40

science but you know that's probably

26:42

about all, you know, we haven't

26:45

deregulated. On the contrary, in some

26:47

ways, we've gone further than the

26:49

EU in its regulation, and the

26:52

zero emission vehicle mandate is a

26:54

prime example of that. I'm, you

26:56

know, that insists that 28% of

26:59

cars sold this year are pure

27:01

electric, and that rises to 80%

27:03

by 2030. Well, I mean, if

27:05

we were in the EU, and

27:08

that's the regulation, by the way

27:10

which was blamed for, um... Stelantis,

27:12

the parent company of Vauxhall, announcing

27:15

the closure of the Luton factory

27:17

in December. But, you know, if

27:19

we're still in the EU, we

27:22

wouldn't be under that system. We

27:24

would be under a slightly more

27:26

relaxed timetable of turning to electric

27:28

cars. So, you know, in some

27:31

ways, we've, our governments have actually

27:33

loaded extra regulation on which we

27:35

wouldn't have had if we're in

27:38

the EU. And that's sort of

27:40

really quite... bizarre given that you

27:42

know one of the prime reasons

27:45

for leaving was to escape the

27:47

over regulation and of energy policy

27:49

generally we're stuck in this um

27:51

you know a you framework You

27:54

know, another little example, if you

27:56

buy and sell a house, you've

27:58

got to have a thing called

28:01

an energy performance certificate. It's a

28:03

complete fast because they're complete guess

28:05

work and you can get two

28:08

properties. well no you get two

28:10

EPCs done on the same property

28:12

and you get a very different

28:15

result because they're not really telling

28:17

you how energy efficient of property

28:19

is it is just sort of

28:21

based on some assumptions and so

28:24

on which which are often incorrect

28:26

now we could quite easily now

28:28

do away with the EPC regime

28:31

it was introduced on you know

28:33

as a condition of EU directive

28:35

we could now abolish it but

28:38

we don't and I don't understand

28:40

why we can't go through all

28:42

these you know regulations one by

28:44

one and sort of rip them

28:47

up as we go along. The

28:49

last government did sort of, you

28:51

know, announce a bonfire of EU-era

28:54

regulations, but then it sort of

28:56

pulled back on it. COVID was

28:58

partly to blame, I suppose, in

29:01

the sense that 2020 Boris Johnson

29:03

and his government were probably all

29:05

primed to seize the initiative and

29:07

take advantage of our departure from

29:10

the EU. And then within weeks,

29:12

of course, we were sort of

29:14

in the middle of this... crisis

29:17

once in a century pandemic and

29:19

I suppose that stole the initiative

29:21

but even so we're you know

29:24

we're five years on now and

29:26

there's no reason why we shouldn't

29:28

be taking advantage of we just

29:31

have not had a government which

29:33

is minded to do so and

29:35

it seems that perversely big state

29:37

big government high public spending, high

29:40

regulations, that sort of perversely come

29:42

into fashion a little more since

29:44

we've left the EU. So it'll

29:47

be a while yet I think

29:49

before we have a government which

29:51

is actually prepared to take advantage

29:54

of. Brexit. Yeah and that's really

29:56

interesting and I wonder if you

29:58

think it speaks to I guess

30:00

the underlying issue with EU membership

30:03

to begin with in my view

30:05

as someone who's who's been Eurosceptic

30:07

for a very long time which

30:10

is that in some ways it

30:12

was you know that outsourcing that

30:14

all the member states partake in

30:17

the outsourcing of you know authority

30:19

to Brussels in relation to regulation

30:21

or freedom of movement questions or

30:23

custom issues or even certain forms

30:26

of lawmaking you know states have

30:28

been have quite happily outsourced authority

30:30

on some of those matters to

30:33

European commissioners do you think that

30:35

speaks that really sprung from a

30:37

sense of decay within individual states

30:40

themselves so I guess the question

30:42

I'm asking is where would you

30:44

put the emphasis? Is it that

30:46

the European Union was a kind

30:49

of... a huge burden on our

30:51

shoulders and it wasn't until we

30:53

wriggle free of it that we'd

30:56

be able to do what we

30:58

wanted to do? Or is it

31:00

that the EU became a kind

31:03

of excuse for a British political

31:05

class and a British state that

31:07

didn't really want to do much

31:10

of that stuff anyway and had

31:12

lacked spark for some time both

31:14

economically and politically? So how would

31:16

you put the emphasis in relation

31:19

to the role that the EU

31:21

plays for individual states? Well,

31:23

it depends what sort of individual

31:26

state you are. Of course, you

31:28

know, if you were an Eastern

31:31

European country, just free of the

31:33

yoke of communism, then the EU

31:35

offered a quick route to the...

31:38

the world of capitalism free trade

31:40

and so on if you're a

31:42

southern European country the EU provided

31:45

a source of funds for investment

31:47

and you know for many years

31:50

Spain and Portugal Greece and so

31:52

on did very well from the

31:54

transfer of money from northern European

31:57

countries but I think there never

31:59

was really any obvious reason why

32:01

Britain should have wanted to be

32:04

part of a free trade area

32:06

certainly and we were prior to

32:08

the being in the EU of

32:11

course we were in the European

32:13

free trade area which was a

32:16

rival group of countries at the

32:18

time who were proposing free trade

32:20

but without the you know political

32:23

you know the political aspects of

32:25

it and I think no government

32:27

ever really came to the terms

32:30

with the idea of surrendering sovereignty

32:32

no UK government that is and

32:34

you know it came to a

32:37

head numerous times during our membership

32:39

and but I think it's left

32:42

its imprint in that you know

32:44

having been subject to these external

32:46

imposition of rules for 46 years

32:49

we then we find it very

32:51

hard to you know go our

32:53

own way and you know I

32:56

think in the minds of the

32:58

sort of British civil servants, you

33:01

know, we've never really left the

33:03

EU and they still want to

33:05

be within the sphere of influence

33:08

of its regulations, which is sort

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to buy at buyers. Yeah,

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I agree. I think that's well

34:57

put. In the book, you say

34:59

that Europe is at risk of

35:01

becoming a backwater. In fact, it's

35:03

become a backwater. And you talk

35:06

about how if you want to

35:08

see economic dynamism, you've got to

35:10

look to the United States or

35:12

to parts of Asia, if you

35:15

want to see cultural and educational

35:17

excellence, you've got to look to

35:19

Southeast Asia and Australia, other parts

35:21

of the southern hemisphere. whereas Europe

35:24

is kind of lingering behind on

35:26

those incredibly important things but then

35:28

I guess the point people would

35:31

have made in the past is

35:33

that well at least Europe has

35:35

got great culture and great history

35:37

and wonderful cities and an attachment

35:40

to the ideals of freedom and

35:42

democracy but in the book almost

35:44

chapter by chapter you kind of

35:46

pick apart some of those myths

35:49

that Europe is still a shining

35:51

beacon of those kinds of values

35:53

and that kind of culture. And

35:55

I did want to ask you

35:58

about some of that because sometimes

36:00

the Remainer argument enters, you know,

36:02

the zone of fairy tales, the

36:04

way in which they talk about...

36:07

about the European Union as this

36:09

kind of, you know, the apex

36:11

of culture and civilization and democracy,

36:14

and none of which is particularly

36:16

true. And I did want to

36:18

ask you about the racism and

36:20

crime issue in particular, because that's

36:23

one thing we were told about

36:25

Brexit Britain, that it would become

36:27

a hate crime, hellhole, there would

36:29

be a general destabilization, things would

36:32

go horribly wrong. But if you

36:34

look across the channel at Europe...

36:36

They have a worse racism problem

36:38

than ours by most polling accounts.

36:41

Crime is worsening in some countries,

36:43

even in Sweden, where gang crime

36:45

is spinning ever so slightly out

36:47

of control. Sweden haven't previously been

36:50

the kind of social democratic dream

36:52

of guardian columnists. What is the

36:54

situation like in Europe in relation

36:57

to, I guess, general social peace?

36:59

I mean, things do seem to

37:01

be unraveling in some countries there.

37:03

Well they are I mean we've

37:06

seen I mean go back a

37:08

year and you remember there's a

37:10

great protest by farmers and sort

37:12

of Brussels ministries being besieged by

37:15

tractors and so on and what

37:17

I found remarkable there was that

37:19

French farmers in particular when they

37:21

started sort of putting roadblocks on

37:24

motorways is they were objecting to

37:26

food imports from Spain and from

37:28

Italy. And nothing if you look

37:30

at those, what a poll that

37:33

is quoted in the book I

37:35

forget who carried it out, but

37:37

just to simply ask people whether

37:40

they were prepared to eat foreign

37:42

food or not. And Britain came

37:44

sort of... top of the list

37:46

of European countries. We were very

37:49

happy to eat our food from

37:51

imported food from other countries. Whereas

37:53

Italy, I think, particular was worse.

37:55

You know, few Italians, it seemed,

37:58

were prepared to eat tomatoes which

38:00

were grown outside of Italy. You

38:02

see this of, you know, the

38:04

single market has been held up.

38:07

this great symbol of civilisation where

38:09

culture of products, produce and people

38:11

are shared from one country to

38:13

another, you've got free movement and

38:16

everything. And you know it seems

38:18

that large numbers of Europeans that

38:20

actually believe that. They feel frightened

38:23

of the idea of buying products

38:25

from other countries. Free movements, another

38:27

issue of course, you know, another

38:29

great... cornerstone of European civilization we're

38:32

told. The idea that you can

38:34

go and live and work in

38:36

another country if you feel like

38:38

it. But I mean look what's

38:41

happened since... Brexit, you know, we've

38:43

got Germany now sort of reintroducing

38:45

border controls quite against the spirit

38:47

of the Schengen agreement. We've got

38:50

Hungary's built Donald Trump-style razor-wire fence

38:52

on its southern border to keep

38:54

out the migrants. We've got, you

38:56

know, Spanish towns sort of rising

38:59

up against tourism, tourists go home

39:01

and all those sort of slogans

39:03

we're getting. You know, Europe is

39:06

not exactly, it's bousing those, those,

39:08

civilised values that we told are

39:10

peculiar to EU membership. And I

39:12

don't think we have many people

39:15

in Britain sort of waving pitch

39:17

forks at tourists. We're very happy

39:19

to import our food even if

39:21

we're not a part of the

39:24

EU and so on. So, you

39:26

know, I think Britain in some

39:28

ways actually is more a keeper

39:30

of the sort of civilised values

39:33

that we told peculiar to EU

39:35

membership. while many European countries sort

39:37

of fall short on these ideals

39:39

in many ways. Yeah, absolutely. And

39:42

in relation to the questions of

39:44

freedom and democracy, which are questions

39:46

I take very seriously indeed, we

39:49

are often told that modern Europe,

39:51

post-war Europe as these kind of

39:53

Europe-wide institutions have been... growing and

39:55

then they kind of formed into

39:58

the EU, we're often told that

40:00

they embody those values in particular.

40:02

From the ashes of the horrors

40:04

of Nazism, Europe created this kind

40:07

of citadel of liberal ideals and

40:09

democratic ideals and you talk in

40:11

your book about how that is

40:13

not quite true. One of the

40:16

main reasons I have been a

40:18

long-term Eurosceptic is because of Europe's

40:20

attitude towards democracy in particular the

40:22

way in which it quite cavalierly

40:25

will brush aside votes that it

40:27

doesn't like, for example, when the

40:29

Irish voted against the Nies Treaty

40:32

and then against the Lisbon Treaty,

40:34

when Greek people have voted for

40:36

governments that the Europe disapproves of.

40:38

I mean, there are various examples

40:41

where the European Union has wielded

40:43

its power almost to punish national

40:45

populations for voting in a way

40:47

that it doesn't like. And in

40:50

your book you talk about the

40:52

example of the law and justice

40:54

party. In Poland, they were in

40:56

power until the end of 2023,

40:59

I think, and the EU was

41:01

quite fond of wrapping their knuckles

41:03

and telling them that there were

41:05

certain laws that they had to

41:08

pass and certain laws that they

41:10

shouldn't pass. There are numerous examples

41:12

of that happening in the EU

41:15

over the past few years, and

41:17

it really gives the lie, doesn't

41:19

it, to this notion that the

41:21

European Union is this... happy clappy

41:24

protector of democracy when even within

41:26

its own boundaries it actually often

41:28

behaves in a quite undemocratic way.

41:30

Yeah, if you want to understand

41:33

the difference between the European approach

41:35

to democracy and the American approach

41:37

to democracy, I recommend going and

41:39

reading the UN Universal Declaration of

41:42

Human Rights and compare it with

41:44

the European Convention on Human Rights.

41:46

The two documents, quite similar in

41:48

many ways, which were drafted around

41:51

about the same time, late 40s,

41:53

early 50s, but the first of

41:55

them, the UN document. was heavily

41:58

influenced by American lawyers and the

42:00

European document of course was drawn

42:02

up by British and other European

42:04

lawyers and there's one phrase which

42:07

appears in the UN document which

42:09

appears absolutely nowhere in the European

42:11

document and that is government shall

42:13

be by the will of the

42:16

people and ever since the foundation

42:18

of the EU and prior to

42:20

that the EU and prior to

42:22

that the European recovery from Second

42:25

World War if you like through

42:27

such things as the European Convention

42:29

on Human Rights. That's all, the

42:31

basic difference is that the Europeans

42:34

were sort of frightened of democracy

42:36

because they looked at what happened

42:38

in Nazi Germany and they said

42:41

well look this is what democracy

42:43

gives us and they started to

42:45

construct institutions which would protect against

42:47

against people power too much, which

42:50

would sort of put this accordant

42:52

sanitary around governments and institutions to

42:54

stop them being influenced by populist

42:56

movements. And Americans have never seen

42:59

the need to do that. There's

43:01

a much greater trust in the

43:03

will of the people. And it

43:05

really does explain, you know, why

43:08

we've ended up with this. democratic

43:10

deficit in Europe which you know

43:12

is much less evident in the

43:14

United States and you know the

43:17

examples you gave you know a

43:19

very good the EU doesn't trust

43:21

you know if a country votes

43:24

against a referendum which it wants

43:26

them to vote for you know

43:28

they'll go and ask them to

43:30

vote again sorry that was the

43:33

wrong result you know have another

43:35

go have another try you know

43:37

like a teacher giving a kid

43:39

a sort of tell him go

43:42

and do your homework again and

43:44

you know that is why we

43:46

ended up with a referendum with

43:48

us and the campaign to leave

43:51

with the slogan take control because

43:53

that absolutely summed up the problem

43:55

of EU membership was that the

43:57

democratic deficit was you know was

44:00

removing the will of people from

44:02

from government. I think you know

44:04

it's long been my view that

44:07

the institutions of the EU are

44:09

primarily designed to insulate decision-making from

44:11

publics. rather than to really open

44:13

up democracy in a new or

44:16

interesting way. And I think the

44:18

European Commission in particular sums up

44:20

that process of kind of insulating

44:22

political life from pesky people really

44:25

is what that's about. Just a

44:27

couple more questions for you Ross.

44:29

I wanted to ask you about

44:31

whether you think the EU's days

44:34

might be numbered or it's years

44:36

numbered rather because it's not going

44:38

to collapse any time soon. But

44:40

it does seem to me that

44:43

there's a contradictory process going on

44:45

at the moment. So on the

44:47

one hand, there has been what

44:49

is sometimes referred to as a

44:52

vibe shift. There is now a

44:54

growing interest in the idea of

44:56

sovereignty and protecting our borders, as

44:59

you've said, countries in Europe are

45:01

taking measures to ring fence themselves

45:03

from out of control immigration and

45:05

food imports or whatever else it

45:08

might be. And we see this

45:10

reflected in... political life. Lots of

45:12

ordinary people, for example, are very

45:14

keen that Britain gets control of

45:17

its borders and in America they

45:19

want control of the southern border.

45:21

There is this renewed belief that

45:23

a sovereign state should have to

45:26

protect the right to protect its

45:28

sovereign territory. And that's happening in

45:30

Europe too, but at the same

45:32

time there is a reluctance even

45:35

among some of the populist parties

45:37

in Europe, even with marine lopen

45:39

and Maloney in Italy and other

45:42

organizations, they... are very good at

45:44

criticizing the EU but there is

45:46

a reluctance to really break away

45:48

from it in the way that

45:51

we in the UK did. What

45:53

do you think explains that kind

45:55

of contradiction? process and what do

45:57

you think will win out? Will

46:00

eventually, will the renewed belief in

46:02

sovereign independence win out against the

46:04

kind of globalist instincts of the

46:06

European Union? Yeah it is very

46:09

interesting the way with the sort

46:11

of national front as it was,

46:13

national rally as it is now

46:15

and the you know the AFD

46:18

in Germany for example and freedom

46:20

party in the Netherlands they all

46:22

began or they went through phrases

46:25

of being very very anti-Europe was

46:27

standing for advocating leaving the EU

46:29

and sort of one by one

46:31

they to sort of soften and

46:34

then drop that stance and I

46:36

think one of the factors is

46:38

that, you know, I think their

46:40

strategy now is to sort of

46:43

change the EU and rather than

46:45

to simply leave it and to

46:47

sort of seize the initiative to,

46:49

you know, in the way we've

46:52

seen over the Schengen Agreement, for

46:54

example, the way that, you know,

46:56

it's supposed to mean open borders,

46:58

but it turns out that countries

47:01

can, if they fancy, actually override

47:03

it, and the sort of national

47:05

concerns, nation states are a little

47:08

more powerful than often we were

47:10

perhaps led to believe they were

47:12

during the Brexit debate. And, you

47:14

know, I've often thought, and this

47:17

is one of the reasons why

47:19

I... voted remain in the end.

47:21

I mean it was about sort

47:23

of 50-50 for me. I was

47:26

one of those few, but sometimes

47:28

the only person in Britain who

47:30

thought there were good arguments on

47:32

both sides. But I mean one

47:35

reason as I ended up voting

47:37

remain was I thought well actually

47:39

some of these things we can

47:41

achieve without going through the turmoil

47:44

of leaving the EU and without

47:46

leaving, losing some of the nice

47:48

things like free movement, you know,

47:51

the right to go and live

47:53

in another country, was that, you

47:55

know, you looked at, say, Ireland,

47:57

which managed to have a 12.5%

48:00

corporation tax rate in spite of

48:02

being in the EU and the

48:04

way that some countries are managing

48:06

to keep their migration levels very

48:09

low illegal migration. rates very low,

48:11

hungry for example, hardly takes any

48:13

illegal migrants, and they're still members

48:15

of the EU. And, you know,

48:18

I think it was perhaps sort

48:20

of underestimated during the Brexit campaign,

48:22

the Leave campaign, that actually some

48:24

of the things that we wanted

48:27

to achieve... by getting out the

48:29

clutches of the EU, we might

48:31

be able to achieve actually without

48:34

leaving the EU. And I think

48:36

over time since Brexit, countries have

48:38

become a lot more muscular in

48:40

standing up to the EU, whether

48:43

it's the Law and Justice Party

48:45

in Poland, whether it's... German government

48:47

reintroducing border controls and so on.

48:49

There is now a much stronger

48:52

approach to dealing with the EU

48:54

and not allowing it sort of

48:56

stretches and directives to wholly to

48:58

dictate what individual countries do. And

49:01

I mean it was always the

49:03

case of course that Britain took

49:05

a lot of these directives a

49:07

lot more literally than some other

49:10

countries did. But I think... the

49:12

EU's probably not going to implode

49:14

in the way that I think

49:17

some of us thought it might

49:19

do in the immediate wake of

49:21

Brexit but I do think it's

49:23

going to weaken it's going to

49:26

continue to weaken and you know

49:28

in the end we might even

49:30

end up with a sort of

49:32

EU which we were happy to

49:35

be part of you know if

49:37

it were to be returned to

49:39

the free trade area that we

49:41

thought that many people hoped it

49:44

would be and nothing else then

49:46

probably something that we would rejoin

49:48

but that's going to happen any

49:50

time soon not for a generation

49:53

at least. Okay Ross my last

49:55

question for you is about I

49:57

guess the elephant in the room

50:00

whose name is Donald Trump and

50:02

I want to ask you what

50:04

impact you think the pretty tumultuous

50:06

events in the United States might

50:09

have on I guess Brexit Britain

50:11

and also Europe and it's you

50:13

know just watching what's happening this

50:15

week you know with a kind

50:18

of bonfire of the bureaucracy that

50:20

is taking place in the US

50:22

and seems to me almost like

50:24

the kind of slightly ruthless dismantling

50:27

of an entire ruling class ideology,

50:29

everything from DEI to net zero

50:31

to border issues, everything that has

50:33

been a kind of fashionable belief

50:36

of the Western elites for the

50:38

past two or three decades has

50:40

just been put to the fire.

50:43

And it's fascinating to watch and

50:45

I wonder what impact you think

50:47

that might make, there's obviously quaking

50:49

in Brussels over the prospect of

50:52

a Trump ruled America, there's lots

50:54

of concern. Do you think a

50:56

Trumpist, the United States will have

50:58

a positive or negative impact on

51:01

Europe and on the problems that

51:03

you outlined so well in the

51:05

book? Well it's going to deepen

51:07

the gulf between the US and

51:10

the EU way of doing things.

51:12

particularly on the energy issue. You

51:14

know, Europe seems stuck in this

51:16

pretty suicidal energy policy where it's

51:19

of putting net zero against all

51:21

above all economic considerations and is

51:23

sort of happy to lose its

51:26

manufacturing industries and sort of impoverish

51:28

its people as a result. Well,

51:30

America was never going to do

51:32

that but and even during the

51:35

Biden years it. followed a very

51:37

aggressive policy of national energy security

51:39

through the exploitation of fossil fuels.

51:41

Well, you know, that's going to

51:44

become even more evident now, isn't

51:46

it? Energy is already, you know,

51:48

about a quarter of the price

51:50

in US as it is for

51:53

industrial users in Britain. Well, that

51:55

goal is going to increase and

51:57

that is going to benefit. on

51:59

the US relative to Europe. As

52:02

for trade, now that's something which

52:04

you... we're going to have to

52:06

wait and see a bit because

52:09

Trump obviously does fire from the

52:11

hip on these kind of issues

52:13

and last time he threatened tariffs

52:15

and global trade wars and so

52:18

on but within months he was

52:20

sitting in a G8 summit proposing

52:22

why don't we go to zero

52:24

tariffs everywhere and he puts up

52:27

these sort of things as opening

52:29

negotiating positions and I suspect he

52:31

doesn't really intend to impose those

52:34

very high tariff rates. he's advocating

52:36

at the moment. If he did,

52:38

it would be, you know, very

52:41

dark time for the world as

52:43

a whole because trade barriers always

52:46

make people poorer ultimately. But, you

52:48

know, if he's more sensible, we

52:50

will have a bit of competition

52:53

between EU and the US, we

52:55

will have a sort of a...

52:58

germishes on the trade front, but

53:00

I don't think we will probably

53:02

have an all-out trade war. So

53:04

in that sense, and I hope

53:06

I'm right in saying so, there

53:08

won't be a huge consequence of

53:11

the Trump presidency. Ross, thank

53:13

you very much. Thank you.

53:29

Thank you for listening to

53:31

the Brendan O'Neill Show. We'll

53:33

be back with another guest and

53:36

more discussion. Don't forget

53:38

to subscribe and in

53:40

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