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with each following instant the support for

0:23

free speech gets less than less mean where is the just

0:26

, salmond a movement where's the demonstrations

0:28

in new york or paris or london about

0:30

that know what so the

0:33

support for for get

0:35

weaker the cowardice comes more

0:37

obvious every one of these incidents and i think that

0:39

it's basically a bigger and bigger and brighter

0:41

and brighter green light to anybody who wants

0:43

to have a go if you say oh

0:46

i see what critics are free speech do each day

0:48

words of violence than you

0:50

know using violence against worth it comes

0:54

to

0:59

hello welcome back to the brendan o'neill

1:01

so with me brendan o'neill and

1:03

my special guest this week making

1:05

make welcome to the show thank you for having me

1:07

brendan our pleasure and i want to go on

1:09

for a long time and it's

1:12

grimly timely to have you on

1:14

now given what's happened over

1:16

the past two days or months

1:18

salty about the rusty affair and the

1:20

rusty attack and about

1:23

an issue that use been writing on

1:25

for decades now which is

1:27

freedom of speech and the right to ascend

1:30

which you been writing about in spite and before

1:32

that in living marxism numerous

1:34

other publications and of course and your books

1:37

on freedom of speech that me i'm freedom

1:39

of the press and then you'll book trigger warning

1:42

is the same of being offensive killing

1:44

free speech which salman rushdie himself

1:46

described as an incredibly important defense

1:49

of freedom of speech so there's

1:51

a lot for us to dig into dig think on this

1:54

a grim development in

1:56

development in rusty affair but i want to start

1:58

off by asking you what the whole

2:00

when you heard the news last friday

2:03

that rusty had been stabbed in new

2:05

york state had you thought like

2:07

many of us and like rusty himself

2:09

that the saslaw had become a bit

2:11

of a relic kind of a bit for so

2:14

on iran's paul and therefore this

2:16

horrible attacks seem to come slightly out

2:18

of the blue it did burden of i suppose

2:20

what i thought was of it was a terrible

2:22

show

2:24

what you thought about it not

2:26

such a great surprise because

2:28

it affects well as you say was over so

2:30

see is old and even the iranian

2:32

regime kind of semi to sunday

2:35

more recently and rusty had

2:38

, up with an event without security in

2:40

which was at would have been unheard of on sorts

2:42

of and telephones use against him

2:45

and at the same time we have seen

2:47

the intensifying born free

2:49

speech in the west charlie

2:52

upto massacre the the

2:55

merger that french teacher in the streets even

2:58

in this country the badly grammar school

3:00

teacher force into hiding for so his class

3:03

torrents of bahamas so we had we

3:05

have this kind of them the

3:07

movement against free speech i think you've described

3:09

as were on the one hand you have other

3:11

islamist extremists who

3:13

are who want to kill free space literally

3:16

and on the other side i'm the

3:18

kind of was the culture war

3:21

warriors who wants to cancel and

3:23

who are gonna say see such a cowardly

3:26

lack of defensive free speech in response

3:28

to the is it isn't it's access

3:30

is kind of invitation the any

3:32

not so he was have a go at received oh

3:35

it was an open invitation i think okay

3:37

to point them for years by the six se since

3:39

they charlie up to attack

3:42

the really these islamist attacking [unk] people

3:45

for offending the profit or

3:47

allah in the west

3:49

oh

3:50

really should be understood not only is

3:52

the gonna represent sassoon old eastern religion

3:55

but also as the com arms militant

3:57

wing of a very modern western

3:59

movement

3:59

it's just a offensive speech

4:02

but has no rights be expressed in should be rubbed

4:04

out one way or another

4:06

terrible shock but when you think about it in

4:08

the concepts of the free speech go in the west he

4:10

shouldn't have been such a terrible surprise yeah

4:13

absolutely and just

4:15

on that unholy marriage

4:17

between i really worry as on one side

4:20

and the council culture mob on the other get

4:22

a both of whom are driven by the

4:25

same the instinct in different

4:27

ways which is to crush that which offends

4:29

them as i wanted trace with you

4:32

how that comes about and the

4:35

it's historical origins if we go back to

4:37

nineteen eighty eight and nineteen eighty nine

4:39

when this attack the satanic verses was first

4:42

published and then and then was issued

4:44

in eighty nine i

4:46

want i want to see what the atmosphere was like

4:48

by back then because when i read some of the

4:50

coverage of the response

4:53

to the software even now

4:55

i'm still shocked when i read a if you

4:57

have liberals who were sailing

4:59

to stand with salman rushdie and actually called

5:02

him a troublemaker and suggested that he was bringing

5:04

all this trouble on himself conservative

5:07

politicians were also fairly quick

5:09

to write him off as a bit of problem and

5:13

you know jimmy carter infamously write a

5:15

piece in the us i think for the new york times

5:17

yeah basically saying it's a rusty

5:20

is offensive and and and causing this all

5:22

this trouble the that

5:25

was fairly widespread of the time wasn't it but then

5:27

and it's getting my indicated

5:29

very early on the kindness and you've just

5:31

talked about which is that there was already

5:34

in those in that early period emerging

5:37

together of the intolerance else islamist

5:40

on one side and liberals

5:42

on the other

5:43

most definitely bread and i'm is absolutely key

5:45

moment in starkville a sighting

5:48

that divide between those who were

5:50

weren't prepared to stand up for free speech in

5:52

the west not just a divide between to

5:55

a store islam and the west but the divine with

5:57

divine the west him between and those

5:59

who were signed up for free speech it really

6:01

brought that to the surface in the most shocking kind of way

6:04

it was the first time

6:06

for me to i really realized how

6:09

shallow and how safe is to support free

6:11

speech in the west especially in the upper

6:13

echelons of of western society how

6:15

they will pay to pay lip service to it but

6:18

actually when it came to it whenever

6:20

a little mobile misread burning

6:23

books burning british cities and

6:25

people shied away from it wanted to bury the she

6:27

didn't want to talk about it comes to say yes

6:30

we agree with you this topic on so far you

6:33

know we believe in freedom of speech favorite the press

6:35

box and the butts get bigger and bigger

6:37

and for

6:40

the his offensive we completely understand why people

6:42

are very upset even that's

6:45

a government which actually extended

6:47

the police protection to receive well developed factor

6:51

and dosage geoffrey howe was a single cell phone secretary

6:53

the time made the point that the book was

6:56

offensive when i

6:58

am was over stuffing the mark and

7:00

a rather reluctantly gonna protect it's costly

7:02

and the list were just

7:04

terrified of the prospect of appearing racist

7:07

or a me as i don't think islam a so they could become

7:09

erm a popular phrase that but it would

7:11

it would be demoted modern equipment effects

7:14

didn't want to appear racist in response to and so

7:16

decisive pretend it would go away and

7:18

to say with complete appreciate and understand how

7:21

upset you are how hurt your feelings on that

7:23

device we know we're

7:25

wimps pets and of freedom of speech and how

7:28

do with the people actually on the liberal leftwing

7:31

side of that divisions were taken

7:33

out and stance freedom of speech starkly

7:36

the site nipple i'm to me and many other people

7:38

to , important about and for free

7:41

speech was going to be which we've seen

7:43

more more important also c o two years

7:45

and the i think the the

7:48

division of the of the of fact wire

7:50

and and the novel itself and the response the

7:52

novel as an explosive moment in

7:54

in politics and western culture

7:57

is really important and eighty to think

7:59

about the time that it came out right at the end

8:01

of the cold war when there was there was

8:03

in global politics as well as

8:05

a domestically to it

8:08

really became a flashpoint

8:10

in so many of those different issues

8:12

and questions and another way that happened you mention their

8:14

the mobs burning the book you

8:17

look back on photographs of some of those they are genuinely

8:19

shocking unit , mob

8:22

in bradford for example the

8:24

mainly muslim men who

8:26

were point gleefully

8:28

burning the book and damning it as an act of blasphemy

8:31

and that was that turning point to wasn't it in turns

8:33

off at firstly the moment at which it happens

8:35

which is after decades of

8:38

at the left sailing and changing

8:40

sailing different ways and you have this explosive

8:42

moment where people seem to embrace a far more

8:44

regressive identity korean

8:47

form of politics a religious form of politics

8:49

yep through which to express

8:51

the anger all that intolerance

8:53

or whatever else who might be but that was a shift

8:56

to wasn't a towards the new

8:58

politics of victimhood the politics of offence

9:00

taking and people defining themselves

9:03

much more through identity rather than anything else

9:05

completely and i think you know you mentioned to see

9:08

if the less and that's really what happened that the

9:10

less than the anti racists mint have

9:12

been defeated and of and the vacuum was kind

9:14

of field this new

9:16

muslim identity or islamic identity

9:19

politics was wasn't really to do with an upsurge

9:21

of religious beliefs too much as a feeling of a gap

9:23

of people who wanted something to to believe

9:25

in and as you say that the became define

9:27

fine by the idea of victim his victimhood

9:29

by idea of being offended

9:32

by the idea of and the to protect your sensibilities

9:35

and so that is a mike eisner those

9:37

you fit it in drink with , identity

9:39

politics that was that was coming to dominate

9:42

left wing politics in in the when britain in

9:44

the west it's gonna british illustrates to have a of

9:46

a global trend obviously of issue with

9:48

amounts and as you mentioned at the time

9:51

which ah to mind off younger

9:54

viewers and listeners was them

9:56

a magazine publisher the referees see communist

9:58

party the feast we

10:01

really wants to as lm because

10:03

a in which you , i worked i'm

10:05

brendan and they will be los l a magazine when it closed

10:08

off a libel case case and or

10:10

in a few people launch spikes that to sit msnbc

10:12

kind of antecedent the where we are now

10:14

and all response to the rusty affairs

10:16

in living monks and i just looked it up this week was

10:18

we publisher and editor in april nineteen

10:20

eighty nine to defend the rights

10:22

be offensive the thing is absolutely

10:25

key marker in some might even the first time

10:27

expressing with actually use simply by made

10:29

up probably fucks anywhere in in and been

10:32

defending , rights be offensive defend the rights

10:34

bless v defend the right to question everything

10:37

to go against orthodoxies stand

10:39

up for freedom of speech and store even

10:41

for those ideas that you disagree with with

10:43

that was a crucial marker for us as well laying

10:45

down the line saying we are going to fight

10:47

the free speech we're gonna defend the right to

10:49

be offensive and offensive think that we've

10:52

improve right that's been the aptly crucial issue

10:54

that the friedman which all other freedoms defend them

10:56

it's and fruit be the christmas or the past three decades

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11:56

you mentioned that blasphemy and i want to

11:59

do a little bit blasphemy which

12:01

you've written about on spike the the

12:03

central importance of the right

12:05

to blast same to the broader project

12:08

of expanding freedom of speech is

12:11

historically historically often the the

12:13

struggle for the right to be a heretic or the right to

12:15

hold heretical police and to blast seem against

12:17

certain gods or profits that really

12:19

propelled society forward

12:22

in terms of freedom and

12:24

the first one to ask you about his

12:27

subsequent to the

12:29

, wire and and the response in

12:31

the west as well as in iran's and and

12:33

india india actually some to

12:35

to rusty's novel what

12:37

happened in the west is the the think we witnessed

12:40

a settler ization of blasphemy

12:42

so it's quite soon after that

12:44

schwab we do start here in discussions

12:47

about islam as i be as he say wasn't instantly

12:49

and eighty eight and or eighty nine but

12:51

certainly it was in nineteen ninety seven that the running

12:54

mate trust first put forward one

12:56

of the most important definitions of

12:58

islam or say bs which included things

13:01

like presuming

13:03

the western values are superior

13:05

to the values of islamic countries and

13:07

so it was all it was included not

13:09

just what everyone would recognize as racist

13:12

comments about muslim communities but

13:14

also moral judgments political

13:16

speech political criticism and

13:18

, on so through that process

13:21

through in it wasn't one of the my

13:23

striking things that shortly

13:25

after the fact was shortly after this man

13:27

was singled out hi a tyrannical

13:29

regime as deserving of death

13:32

soul blasphemy against islam we

13:34

institutionalized our own version of they are

13:36

only we called it is i'm a phobia

13:38

absolutely extraordinary and you

13:40

know you to think that think that time everyone would say

13:42

oh for me that's that solo

13:45

tax day in britain last

13:47

prosecution for for me in britain

13:49

not you seventy seven private prosecution by

13:51

mary whitehouse felt a moral campaigner

13:54

crusader who took a nice

13:56

to court and wanna as and

13:58

private i'm

14:00

from publishing a power in which a

14:02

roman centurion emotions having a

14:05

gay sex with dejesus as

14:07

also guy and that's gonna just seemed like

14:09

he does history and indeed

14:11

by two thousand two thousand when tony blair divided

14:13

had been that's a promise that blasphemy laws

14:16

was you say they striking thing was that was very different

14:18

celebrate about that what i was it necessary steps

14:21

because they were replacing at the same song with this

14:23

kind of secular i'm a lot hate

14:26

speech laws which defines

14:28

the any that could be called a phobia

14:31

which is why i'm a phobia became one of essential

14:33

marx was the secular

14:37

modern equivalent of blasphemy saying what

14:39

couldn't be sites and should be punished that's

14:41

not by deficit we bobbing silence in corpus

14:44

we will be locked so we have

14:46

completely secularized at the blasphemy

14:48

laws in this country and they're very promises to across

14:50

the west you find blasphemy

14:53

law was now basically

14:55

the muslim world the

14:57

crossfire where's the motor very few

14:59

old fashioned blasphemy laws but there are almost

15:02

all societies have ice sheets or some of them

15:04

and europe much harder the nose which defines

15:06

something like anything , that

15:08

anything that be called denial is now the and

15:11

with his genocide denial or climate change denial

15:13

tyson market griffin of of blasphemy

15:16

and isn't it's hate speech that isn't and monica

15:18

venice heresy things as cannot be said most

15:21

dishonest and funny so very

15:23

powerful secular plus me loss as comes

15:25

with razzi one of the major barriers to free speech

15:28

at now so we shouldn't imagine for imagine moment that

15:30

this moment that kind of a swiss device you

15:33

know that you don't in in pakistan or the middle

15:35

east the people kept on the suit for plus we have

15:37

our own six of us who lot and they're very

15:39

powerful and restrictions

15:41

on freedom of speech here yeah absolutely

15:43

and we've seen people be

15:45

suspended or sacked from their jobs

15:47

for actually making fun of islam

15:50

and you mentioned earlier the badly grammar

15:52

school teacher who who talks about the bachelor

15:54

grammar school seats the ice that once owner we have free

15:56

speech he was really the who's defending the batley

15:58

grammar school teacher was still in high the a year later

16:00

persona can't seem to also school gets

16:02

his extraordinary and i think

16:04

so as i wanted to touch on a point you made earlier

16:07

in relation precisely to this question which

16:10

is the green light that

16:12

his son when our society

16:14

sales to stand up for people's right to speak

16:16

freely yet so if we take the badly grammar

16:18

example so as you say the school teacher

16:22

is as far as we know still in hide in

16:24

keeping his head down apparently have to move out of his

16:26

home with his young family all

16:28

because he showed some images of

16:31

muhammad in as classroom discussion

16:33

on blasphemy and freedom of speech in a sense

16:36

and an intolerant mob gathered

16:38

outside gathered school and picked up a storm

16:40

and demanded his sacking isn't

16:43

the liberal cowardice central

16:45

to all of this because if

16:47

you look at the mob the gathered outside the school firstly

16:49

they would do in what you would expect them to do

16:51

right this is what islam is do they

16:53

shout and they scream and they don't like it

16:55

when people offend their religious beliefs

16:59

they , fairly small in number even though

17:01

i'm sure that the threat was very serious

17:04

to but it was the other institutions

17:06

that was sailing to do what they should

17:09

be doing so the teaching unions didn't stand

17:11

by this teacher the political class didn't

17:13

say very much even the supposedly

17:15

liberal commentary up didn't put its neck

17:17

and above the parapet to say look we

17:19

have to rally around this guy so

17:21

it's how central do think that cowardice

17:24

is to events like this and

17:26

to emboldening these

17:28

intolerant elements these society

17:30

the complete essential when it because

17:33

in all these instances we only so she about

17:35

small numbers relatively

17:37

small numbers of of extremists in

17:40

the muslim community in britain the vast majority

17:42

of them are not supporters yeah

17:45

of stabbing salman rushdie in the neck know talking

17:47

about very simple numbers of of them extremists

17:49

in isn't , extremists and

17:51

the same way that the trans activists

17:54

soon see jk rowling who strikingly

17:56

was caught up in the and they receive

17:58

fair to sweep forcing

18:01

him a collie

18:03

timely innocent that they were very small my

18:06

noise they only have

18:09

any influence because of the absolute

18:11

cowardice and collapse of the establishment

18:13

and the and the liberal as seasons in

18:15

britain and the west that's what gives them the opportunity

18:18

to have such insolence said to have such a

18:20

voice is we were standing up

18:22

for all about freedom of speech

18:24

democracy tolerance they

18:26

, be on the friends you know sell cigarettes speakers

18:29

corner i thought rather than

18:31

in the center of all political and and

18:33

political cultural life which we've allowed them to become

18:36

and what's really saw him out this him out every time when

18:38

these incidents happened that seems to me the

18:40

response gets worse and worse gets

18:42

weaker and weaker if

18:44

you think a trolley upto twenty sixty

18:46

the massacre of from the journalists

18:49

causing this novice at the offices of that serious

18:52

magazine in paris there

18:54

was a huge outpouring of support

18:56

for charlie of to does she does your suis charlie

18:59

nathan when across europe and the in

19:01

the world in sense of demonstrations and so on and

19:03

we pointed out of the time and in my book trigger warning that you mentioned

19:05

i wrote a chapter about it actually how

19:07

thin that support for it was and how quickly

19:10

the back crashed on it and

19:12

if so i say yes but yeah charlie

19:14

up to go see full gosh

19:16

himself in a vote a very famous in some

19:18

in that because american ten the writers

19:21

organization after , shortly after

19:23

mascot i organize a special events

19:26

that income memory of the fallen and support

19:28

them several really leading

19:30

american writers receives suits and boycotted

19:32

it and announced they wouldn't do said it was totally

19:34

uptight was racist is lana phobic

19:36

the publication when she was absolutely

19:39

apoplectic you serious that that and for our

19:41

great site was about how we supposed

19:43

to be of his or ex president of americans and

19:45

we supposed to be seen express an

19:47

organization that he believes in free speech you

19:50

gobbling free speech i did you disagree

19:52

with that the house and kind of

19:54

of the principle of free speech so

19:57

even support for charlie up to [unk] was

19:59

actually almost superficial

20:01

and and we will it's leave at the time

20:03

then the a liberal establishment this time

20:06

we were these following incident to support

20:09

for free speech because less than less mean where is the just

20:11

we salman yeah movement right western

20:13

demonstrations in new york new york about

20:16

or london about that know what

20:18

so the support for free

20:21

speech gets weaker the cowardice

20:23

comes more obvious with every one of these instance

20:25

and i think that is this be a bigger and bigger

20:27

and brighter and brighter green light to anybody

20:30

he wants to advocates if you say oh

20:32

as the were critics of free speech to today's

20:35

words of violence then you

20:37

know using violence against was becomes

20:39

a console is just met response in some people's minds

20:42

i think that's so true about the

20:44

the lack of a an angry

20:46

clear principal response to what happened

20:49

to salman rushdie and i've noticed over the past few days

20:51

you think yourself out on his is already

20:53

fading from exactly the kind of

20:55

public that you know it's still in the news people want

20:57

to know how he's doing when it's going to be out of hospital

21:00

cause but is as it in

21:02

terms of being a a prominent

21:04

public concern the i mean

21:07

it's com a dog gonna be a reading of some

21:09

of his works in new york i think

21:11

but aside from that i've not seen anything

21:13

at all which is really startling and

21:16

i wanted to ask about one of those ideological

21:18

justification that are given for

21:20

this failure of people to stand with i'm

21:23

supposed heretics and others who exercise

21:25

that free free speech especially in relation

21:28

to issues to do with islam so you mentioned

21:30

that charlie have do and the shocking

21:33

response that came from sections of the western

21:35

literati so those i'm incredibly

21:38

prominent novelist who complained about the pen

21:40

award for charlie have to and a

21:42

what what was very striking about what they

21:44

said is the charlie have do the problem

21:46

with charlie have to that it too

21:48

often mocked a section of

21:51

the french population that is already marginalized

21:53

embattled and victimize said the idea

21:56

was charlie up that was punching

21:58

down it was p that's the phrase is used

22:00

and you see that all the time you know navarre

22:03

a media the kind of lefty corbyn esta

22:05

media outlet here in the uk write a piece

22:07

in which it said in a charlie have those computers

22:10

are all white middle class

22:12

mostly male and therefore they have a certain

22:15

privilege a visa v the

22:17

muslim population this is all stuff ten

22:20

of them had been slaughtered in their offices which is very

22:22

strange forget privilege i think i'm

22:24

and then you have the despicable islamic human

22:26

rights commission which gave i'm sorry

22:29

have died the islamic obe of the year award

22:32

just a few weeks after they were killed

22:34

in our offices which is just a new

22:36

low in terms of that kind of identity

22:38

or in politics but the justification

22:40

is often used is the one about pissing

22:42

down now in relation

22:44

so charlie either that simply gets it wrong charlie

22:47

had they punches everywhere up down

22:49

left right all religions or political

22:51

so so they just wrong about french

22:53

satire and charlie have their satire particular

22:55

sport he makes of that term

22:57

this notion that if you

22:59

criticize islam you're hurting of hon community

23:02

or as you criticize any aspect of transgender

23:04

islam you're hurting a marginalized

23:07

community is often

23:08

that weaponization of suppose it viability

23:11

isn't as it's used against freedom of speech

23:13

absolutely well and i thought was looking up at

23:16

without getting into specifics of any of those you

23:18

to do with us as citizens of community

23:21

this a major principal at stake in this

23:24

which is that you'd have free speech you don't have we have

23:26

it is it's an indivisible glyphosate

23:29

and you can't say you can have free speech

23:31

if you agree with me that's not free speech that's you

23:33

know joseph stalin would have in tallinn suppose it free

23:35

speech on that on on that basis

23:39

you to support free speech we don't and as

23:41

you know it's all as i do buy them for spend as free

23:43

speech campaigners once about word

23:45

or rises who for our size issue

23:48

free speech and most of all

23:50

time defending free

23:52

speech for i did we don't want to hear the

23:54

joke is only the extreme

23:56

and the out the idea

23:58

is that needs sending on the grass

24:00

free speech and the mainstream in the

24:02

mediocre can look after itself

24:05

so the first one the

24:08

issue is really important to remember

24:10

this is suing history on it's head to

24:13

sister free speech to somehow a problem repressed

24:15

a marginalized groups free speech

24:17

has been the absolute center of every

24:20

stock of liberation by anybody anywhere

24:22

in the world without the support free

24:24

speech so be no national liberation movements

24:26

that when his advice movie so gala race movies

24:28

though anti racist top

24:31

secret excited and and slavery campaigner

24:33

to me to point the free speech is absolutely

24:35

to supplicants slavery it was

24:37

freedom of speech slavery wouldn't have lasted five

24:40

years in the southern states america your he

24:42

understood that it was essential think so

24:45

if you want to send celebration at a cost to society

24:47

than free speech will be the sense of your of your demands

24:49

and stop trying to make excuses and

24:52

qualifications for wise free

24:54

speech is is roman certain such circumstances

24:56

of a certain people even defend as

24:58

a universal roy and if we do would all be that

25:01

rafa

25:02

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count but spite of the hyphen

26:02

online dot com slash

26:04

supporters

26:06

that's incredibly important point about the

26:08

the power freedom of speech

26:10

precisely for the most vulnerable marginalized

26:13

people in society it's how they have

26:15

liberated themselves historically so

26:17

the been a complete transformation in how the idea

26:19

is understood i wanted to go back go back

26:21

bit more in time even before

26:24

frederick douglass time a you wrote

26:27

spite about rusty been

26:29

at a heretical heroes and and

26:31

part of a long line of people to

26:33

have to to stand up against orthodoxies

26:36

to to withstand accusations

26:39

of blasphemy and also the i think

26:41

the most admirable thing about what rushdie has done is

26:43

that he has made freedom of speech one of his core

26:45

beliefs absolutely and not very

26:47

time in that very period that he was under attack

26:49

he didn't skulk away and defend his

26:52

book only when i said before that we

26:54

spend most of us on defending people we don't listen to

26:56

i don't include ross yeah he's he's he's genuinely

26:58

hero restrict my favorite thing that nobody said this week

27:00

was one who's sunset the free speech

27:02

is life yeah a holiday yeah

27:05

free speech is life itself thought to have his whole

27:07

life is about i think that's what you know michael

27:10

how many people all the and puppet loss of register

27:12

to stand up and say that today yeah absolutely

27:14

not really agree but just gotten back a little bit

27:16

more in relation to the spike pc wrote

27:18

about i'm which is headlined without

27:21

blasphemy the west would have no free speech

27:23

so , just remind just how important

27:26

the how important of people

27:28

to blaspheme against orthodoxies

27:31

or to stand up against a the

27:33

core beliefs of society how in how

27:35

central was that to the development of freedom

27:38

of speech over the past see hundred years in terms

27:40

of the relative

27:42

freedom of speech that we enjoy today and how that came

27:44

about completely central brandon what's a

27:46

day off some if we look at the rusty to going to was

27:48

a piece that religion is the enemy of free

27:51

, this is the problem when wittingly free speech

27:53

is important to remember that when free

27:55

speech actually emerged

27:57

the modern for

27:59

for

27:59

the hundred years ago and as an issue in western

28:02

society the demand was for

28:04

religious freaks the freedom to

28:06

think right and speak and

28:09

worse as you saw fit the protestant

28:11

reaction against the catholic church

28:13

the demand to be able to publish a bible

28:16

in your own language and we need to sell for up and being

28:18

told by priests what it said with essential

28:20

demands of of the protestant reformation and

28:23

was it about demand for freedom of thought conscience

28:25

and speech and you know people

28:27

like tinder would burn at the state the

28:30

a daring to translate the bible into

28:32

english only a few years before by the way

28:34

it became a state policies have a boyfriend

28:36

every church which the on

28:38

the streets today is

28:40

blasphemy be some smallest orthodoxy

28:42

books people standing up fighting

28:45

for blasphemy the right to question

28:47

the orthodoxies of society the

28:49

the right to be a heresy also and

28:52

census the struggle for freedom of speech i am i

28:54

think i made for their the m you go back to

28:56

the meaning of terrorist the was defined

28:58

by an early christian leader in greek the

29:01

he said he sees were orthodox

29:03

from , greek favourite police police

29:06

his opponents these were heresy from

29:08

the greek for toys to toys so

29:10

choosing what you believe that is simply that

29:13

is the origins of the world harrison and that's

29:15

what be inherently could always meant standing up for your

29:17

freedom to think and write as soon as you see

29:19

fit so one of the great paris texas a

29:21

of the a spinoza

29:24

he was from now see two screens in amsterdam

29:26

as a as a bus fema i think

29:29

have to the issue perfectly when he said that

29:31

in perfectly free state any man and we will

29:33

see at any woman or anybody else may

29:36

think what you like some say what you think anti

29:39

blasphemy fighting for that person census

29:41

of of free speech over the last four five hundred

29:43

years first , so as

29:46

religion and and and state comptroller the printing

29:48

press and today against

29:50

at the kind of modern blasphemy laws

29:52

that we've it's disgusting and sense of a speech

29:54

in the right to question i just thought as

29:57

well as islam yeah and i wanted to come on

29:59

to that into

29:59

those the new orthodoxies and

30:02

guess the new accusations of blasphemy

30:05

oh which obviously the language

30:07

has changed no one would openly described

30:09

that political belief as an orthodoxy that you must

30:11

and question that use other language no

30:14

one would accuse you of blasphemy but i might you keep

30:16

accuse you of hate speech or raising

30:19

people are problematic for

30:21

that's a favorite were too so the languages

30:23

changed but the instinct is the same which is too

30:26

shut down questioning of certain ideas but

30:28

of course the ideas now tend to be i

30:31

don't carry on ones that iran's

30:33

one is central to a lot of their sins it's very

30:35

interesting how phrases like trans women

30:37

are women are often repeated as

30:39

it almost as a religious mantra that they

30:42

never explained is just repeated and are

30:44

only role is to repeat them back in a dutiful

30:46

sasson rather than to choose our own

30:49

belief which is to say that is not true so

30:51

awesome when you raise questions like this and make

30:54

comparisons so i made a comparison between

30:56

a salman rushdie and jk rowling

30:58

in the sense of both have been subjected

31:00

to death threats both has been at their books

31:03

burn in very different contacts both

31:05

, been demonized by sections

31:08

of the liberal supposedly liberal establishment

31:11

for having wrong thing to for being offensive

31:13

and of course the thing that set against me as the

31:16

how can you compare these two thing salman rushdie's

31:18

been in hiding for years he's not been stabbed

31:21

and of course the level of threat is

31:23

very threat is and what salman

31:25

rushdie has experience is different to what any

31:27

other modern writer has experienced and

31:29

no one would deny that but there is a commonality

31:32

isn't there between i guess

31:34

is another expression of the crushing

31:37

together of the islamic intolerance with identity

31:39

politics which means that they do sounds

31:42

creepily similar yes

31:44

absolutely i mean

31:45

as we sit there is a difference between islamic

31:48

extremists who wants to kill you for free fh

31:51

and while culture wars you just want to cancel

31:53

the dumbest a difference but you

31:55

know one where you lose you can lose your life

31:57

the other way you can lose your license livelihood

32:00

in your your career your your

32:02

future posts and your voice in public and

32:04

and i think it was absolutely

32:06

the user or that me for it's no coincidence

32:08

that jk rowling the also

32:11

received it's a death threat this week's

32:13

apparently from someone who isn't this leanings a

32:15

in this phone to her support for rush

32:17

you in such sang it to your next

32:20

why wouldn't they be off the j k rowling

32:22

what do they care about the trends debate and

32:24

it's a it's almost like an unconscious merging

32:27

of those yeah wish used to say you

32:29

can't say that that's basically the the the

32:31

couch with anything with in in different forms

32:33

and different positions from different language what's being

32:35

said is you can't say that and

32:38

it's terribly unholy alliance

32:41

between islamist militants periods

32:44

which some of them once he silence

32:46

and others just want to use at the blue senses

32:49

paint but this effect on free speech

32:51

is pernicious of satellites and

32:53

as he talked about before the

32:56

cowardice and the anti free speech culture

32:58

in the west and down simply gives the green

33:00

light to those who want to take it further attacks

33:02

or if you say your speech

33:05

is violence than why

33:07

didn't someone conclude this is just muddies violence

33:09

to stop them for yeah absolutely

33:11

yeah and the common phrase these days

33:13

is that if you express yourself my day you're

33:16

a raising my identity and it's

33:18

as active structural violence against my

33:20

identity and you feed into this constant notion

33:23

that

33:23

words are attacking me and therefore i have

33:25

the right to attack but this is why you know

33:28

it wouldn't when i wrote that isro search your choosing the

33:30

right to be offensive that with that's been has a key

33:32

element of everything of whitman said ever since

33:34

it is the right see offensive or what would it didn't

33:37

circumstances dakota rights plus fees

33:39

if we don't have that we don't have free speech

33:42

if we only allowed to say things that one defend

33:44

somebody one upset anybody and we miles

33:46

little keep your mouth shut because they're free speech is

33:48

completely meaningless yeah absolutely and

33:50

and that that have that chilling phrase chilling signed his

33:53

and free speech has consequences

33:55

now in a sense it's perfectly logical

33:57

from be should have the consequences staring

33:59

up discussion

33:59

maybe sometimes changing the world

34:02

making people think differently but

34:04

if we're talking about free speech having the consequences

34:07

you losing your job all

34:09

losing your life then that is not

34:11

consequences that punishment and i've often

34:13

thought the one thing that binds together the

34:15

kind of woke mall been and the

34:18

more violent islamist mall there's

34:20

this idea that free speech has consequences

34:23

and

34:23

i'm sure the charlie have died killers had the in their

34:25

mind you know a com your consequences

34:28

this is what we're going to do to you as a consequence

34:30

of you are exercising your freedom of

34:32

speech is that it's a very chilling phrase when

34:34

you look at the context in which is typically used

34:36

absolutely a it's you say that

34:38

that's going to be a serious type out for yes

34:41

these people are both wings or something in my books according

34:43

to outsiders that we live in the eyes of the reverse

34:45

voters if you take photos classic

34:47

phrase or phrases cbt it to him by

34:49

his biographer i discreetly what

34:51

what you say but i'll defense death your right

34:54

to say it prevents reverse photos is i

34:56

disagree with what you say i hate what you say

34:59

on i will fight to the death of free speech to

35:01

my right to stop you saying this you

35:03

tell me on were on that basis there was

35:05

a disagreement between the islamist and

35:07

the identity area winks against free speech movement

35:09

that they're all in the same but whether they lots of

35:11

missy or not and more

35:13

, on a day to day basis it's the i didn't tear

35:16

in the workouts where is that we're fighting against

35:18

and also of free speech and these

35:20

and is coming once in a while to get tickets aren't

35:22

sophistication by crisis or

35:24

six his time but we got to get angry

35:26

about this the mindless that

35:29

you've written brilliantly eloquently about this from

35:31

of the holders and a thing about tank look back in anger

35:33

is time to get angry about this about what's been

35:35

done to free speech and also sought not

35:37

only by handful of of isn't this

35:39

box bomb far more powerful how

35:42

ugly the free speech section

35:45

at all liberal establishment and sponsor

35:47

plus seem as if the world to you know it's and

35:50

sort of in support of several

35:52

by critical free speech heroes

35:54

love salmon rustic yeah absolutely

35:56

i couldn't agree more i was thinking the other day that

35:58

it's time to of the

35:59

he did another along the other side

36:02

is already upped the ante quite dramatically

36:04

especially with this attack and it's time for

36:07

for those of us who believe in freedom to respond a

36:09

by upping the ante in all way to in terms

36:11

of the sense that we put forward of this crucial

36:14

liberty me come up just to more questions

36:16

see the first is about the

36:18

response in the uk to what

36:20

had happened to rusty which i just found to be

36:22

sold limb and blame and

36:25

already fizzling out and you said

36:27

earlier that there is no she's just three

36:29

salmond movement and so on which is true

36:32

what is striking those that the response

36:34

in france has been far more from and

36:36

or if you look at president microns response

36:39

to the stabbing it was a very

36:42

solid from clear response

36:44

talking about how salman rushdie has always stood up

36:46

against the forces of barbarism

36:48

and obscurantism lots of

36:50

french intellectuals who you've always had

36:53

a stronger critical line

36:55

on problems to do with islam is thinking lots

36:57

of french intellectuals came out very strongly in said

36:59

we have to stand with freedom of speech against

37:02

loomis terror on islamist

37:04

intolerance in the uk the response

37:07

was far more week or even

37:09

boris johnson's response which did mention freedom

37:11

of speech was a bit wet hasn't

37:14

really been followed up particularly well

37:16

kissed arma two i dunno

37:18

twenty four hours or something to respond which

37:20

is pretty extraordinary considering that

37:22

salman rushdie is a not born in

37:24

britain but he's a british citizen and a british

37:27

night of the realm how do

37:29

you explain the weakness of the response

37:31

in britain to visit because there's a say that

37:34

people will accuse you of being part of a culture

37:37

will he be talk about issues like this

37:39

or people will accuse you of ascending

37:41

the muslim community why is there that

37:44

reluctance here in particular

37:46

to take to take from line along the lines

37:48

that we just been talking about the a remarkable

37:51

are it's been going on for a long time getting worse

37:53

and worse the absolute cowardice

37:55

in the liberal establishment in britain of being

37:58

seen to offend islam often

38:00

seem to offend anybody with their opinions

38:03

, the reluctance to take a stand is

38:05

this is gonna blow mom's like mess

38:07

that the british fiscal establishment has done a site

38:10

itself to be be more starkly

38:12

actually as he say than the even then it didn't

38:14

didn't other parts of the west so it's a remarkable statement

38:16

by angela rayner the definitely to

38:18

the labour party so i think with the first labor

38:21

leaders tweet in response to the rusty

38:24

fair to set them condemned

38:26

fair attack she said this

38:28

farmers is an attack on free speech and

38:30

can never be the answer sorry

38:34

interestingly strong statements might never be the answer to

38:36

what what's the question

38:38

how do we i'm trying to censor free

38:40

speech summit your is just the wrong thing

38:42

to say completely the wrong response

38:44

to it completely in the wrong

38:46

side of the arguments to the article published

38:48

on one of the main the news sites

38:51

almost as soon as they suck it happens headlines

38:53

why salman rushdie so controversial

38:56

as , rossi was the problem money

38:58

issue here this is how far we've gone down the

39:00

slope of this terror of of overstepping

39:02

am also also british establishment in

39:04

very weakness for some for a long time by

39:07

at by western standards western

39:09

, getting worse and worse as now revealing

39:11

itself spy all of it's pretensions

39:14

to be yeah britain is the is the

39:16

home of free speech and democracy which is much

39:18

historical truth in that but today it's

39:20

and it seems to be the opposite to be in western standards

39:22

and the eighth itself as a real

39:24

weeks is that when it comes to standing up for

39:26

the principal's office artists and built

39:29

okay so my phone a question is is on those

39:31

principles that our society supposed

39:33

to be built on

39:35

and why they're in pulsar nine some ways this

39:37

feels like very obvious

39:39

question i guess to to you

39:41

and i because we've in

39:43

writing about freedom of speech very

39:46

long time and talking about it for a long time as

39:48

well and i did once was he just say

39:50

something on why freedom of speech is important

39:53

and a you touched on the earlier of course

39:55

in relation to a the use of freedom

39:57

of speech the deployment of freedom of speech at

39:59

the means of liberate and oneself from there

40:02

any and making the case for one's own freedom

40:05

it does strike me that there are younger

40:07

generations in particular who probably have

40:09

never been exposed to the argument for why freedom

40:12

of speech is such an important principle

40:14

in a civilized society i noticed

40:16

the lots of people sharing great quotes from salman

40:18

rushdie over the past week one of my

40:20

favorites is the moment you declare you declare

40:22

of ideas to be immune from criticism

40:25

satire division or content freedom

40:27

a sport becomes impossible and i

40:30

decide true you know a and all the good stuff

40:32

is in they're not only criticism but also contempt

40:35

the causing offense ridicule

40:37

mockery so there

40:40

are people in society salman rushdie

40:42

is salman chief among them who understand

40:45

them importance of freedom importance thought and freedom of speech

40:47

but isn't it was just reiterate in that case

40:49

that fresh all the time so that

40:52

people remember why the sweet i'm should never be curtailed

40:54

where the by crazed men

40:56

with knives or governments with laws

40:58

or months laws or i think that's that's really

41:00

important brendan i mean when i wrote a

41:03

terrible whatever access to the quickness using see

41:05

score about free speech which is that

41:07

some so so as to be free and secondly

41:09

it's speech as and be confused

41:11

with with violence in those kind of seemingly

41:14

obvious principles we do have to keep of and

41:16

be facing under surgery

41:18

we certainly from about his is the most

41:20

important liberty on which all others sand

41:22

and i think it is to the a lot of young

41:25

people don't understand that but it isn't because

41:27

they are some counties in a new generation

41:29

of of for a liberal reactionaries is

41:32

because they've hardly ever heard the argument if he

41:34

was speech and in my experience

41:36

not only in britain but recently and and hungry

41:38

and finland other european countries and

41:41

sweet experience the same thing when you don't have an argument

41:43

people about why free speech simple he

41:45

conceded girls whole from half

41:47

the people young people's eyes and maybe some

41:49

very excited by it's something we've got to keep

41:51

reiterating that free speech is the lifeblood

41:54

of democracy they do not have the right

41:56

to argue for what you believe what

41:59

does democracy where is the choice that way

42:01

that we might have free speech

42:04

even more fundamental my is the basis

42:06

of human autonomy of all

42:08

sizes as individuals who can think for

42:10

ourselves as for those who says think

42:13

what we like and say what we think that's

42:16

a whole by sipping a free individual sipping

42:18

a society that you don't have that that you are not

42:20

that free human and it's success and

42:22

in and practical sense as you already talked

42:24

about free speech is absolutely fundamental

42:26

to every struggle the quality

42:29

for freedom for liberation older things which

42:31

young people would say they really leaving

42:34

if they're not prepared signed up for free speech the

42:36

absolute freedom of speech and none of those

42:38

struggles off can be one we cannot

42:41

live in a free and equal society where people

42:43

com think what they like and say

42:45

what they think the sort of free speech

42:47

has always been since also sub

42:49

woofer free society in the west and even more

42:51

now when such a fundamental

42:53

freedom which everything else in

42:56

our lives depends is at risk

42:58

when there is a nice with the throats of

43:00

free speech in a not only imputing

43:02

russia or the ass gonna sit on the taliban

43:10

apparently illustrate mccain

43:12

thank you very much thank you reddit

43:36

thank you for listening to the brendan o'neill