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Supported, WNYC

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Studios. It's

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the Brian Larra Show on

0:42

WNYC. Good morning, everyone. So

0:44

yeah, it's the day 100. It's the

0:46

day 100 of the Trump administration, which maybe

0:48

you're already sick of hearing about, and

0:51

it's only 10 o 'clock in the morning. And

0:54

it's also day one of

0:56

some consequential new policies in New

0:58

York State that the governor and

1:00

legislature just agreed to last night in

1:02

their annual budget agreement. You may

1:04

not have heard about these things yet,

1:06

so we'll start there today. We'll

1:08

go on to Trump and authoritarianism and

1:10

Trump and public health. later

1:12

in the hour, but we're going to

1:14

start in New York State with all these new

1:17

policies on masks, on cell phones

1:19

and schools, on medical aid and

1:21

dying for certain people who are terminally ill

1:23

and want to choose that, on

1:25

removing people involuntarily from the

1:27

streets, and also, yes, on

1:29

some actual budget items in the budget. Many of

1:31

you will be getting a check in the mail.

1:34

from the state of New York,

1:36

it looks like. Some of you

1:38

with kids will be getting a

1:40

bigger break on your state income

1:42

taxes, and there's more. So let's

1:44

go down this checklist and also

1:46

invite some of your first reactions

1:48

with John Campbell and Chris Albany

1:50

for us here at WNYC and

1:52

on Gothamist. Thanks for coming on

1:54

on quick turnaround to follow this

1:57

news this morning, John. Happy April

1:59

29th. Happy April 29th, Brian. 29

2:01

days. The state budget's late. So

2:03

let's just dive right in. Cell phones and

2:05

schools. Way to wind up. Well,

2:08

this is one that has been pretty

2:10

much settled since mid -March, but it

2:12

was finalized as part of this agreement

2:14

yesterday. And it's going

2:16

to be what's known as a

2:18

bell to bell. ban on smartphone

2:20

use in public schools in

2:22

New York State. And that means

2:25

from opening bell to closing bell,

2:27

students won't be allowed to

2:29

use their smartphones or similar internet -enabled

2:31

devices. That bell -to -bell nature

2:33

of it was very important to

2:35

Governor Hockel and the teachers unions.

2:37

They pushed for that while

2:39

administrators pushed for a little more

2:41

flexibility and maybe allowing for students

2:43

to use their phones during

2:45

recess or lunch. They didn't get

2:48

that. opening bell to

2:50

closing bell, smartphone ban in

2:52

public schools. Public schools

2:54

will have to come up with,

2:56

each district will have to come up

2:58

with a plan to implement this

3:00

and you know maybe they have pouches

3:02

for kids, maybe they have lockers,

3:04

maybe they have kids keep them in

3:06

their regular lockers. They're going to

3:08

have to implement this by September by

3:10

the next school year. That's in

3:12

the budget agreement. Next item on the

3:14

checklist a ban on wearing masks

3:16

in some circumstances. Where did it wind

3:18

up? this wound

3:20

up in They created a new

3:22

crime I or they're about

3:24

to create because they have to

3:26

pass the budget still and

3:28

put into legislation, but this was

3:30

a big one for for

3:33

governor huckle after There were concerns

3:35

from the the Jewish community

3:37

in particular after there were these

3:39

viral images of anti

3:41

-Israel demonstrators on a train

3:43

last year with masks

3:45

on, asking about Zionists on

3:48

the train. She

3:50

at first had talked about,

3:52

perhaps, restrictions on wearing masks

3:54

in public. That got pared

3:56

down to what we ended

3:58

up with, which is a

4:00

new crime, which is essentially

4:02

evading arrest while masking or

4:04

concealing your face. And

4:06

what that means is you can be

4:09

charged with a Class B misdemeanor,

4:11

which is a lower level misdemeanor. if

4:13

you are concealing your face

4:16

wearing a mask with the intent

4:18

to conceal your identity while

4:20

committing a separate crime. So there's

4:22

a lot there. So it's

4:24

essentially a secondary offense that you

4:27

can be charged with that

4:29

is implemented if you commit a

4:31

class A misdemeanor or a

4:33

felony. Got all that

4:35

that's that's confusing, but it's that's

4:37

where they landed and part go

4:39

ahead. I'm sorry Well, I was

4:42

just gonna say here's here's kind

4:44

of the tension around that or

4:46

some of it you talked about

4:48

those incidents Or an incident where

4:50

people seem to be wearing masks

4:52

while engaged in what might have

4:54

been anti -Semitic harassment, right? At least

4:57

anti -Israel but in the case

4:59

you described it sound like sounded

5:01

like also anti -Semitic But among those

5:03

concerned about any kind of mask

5:05

ban are specifically college students and

5:07

others engaged in political protests. They

5:09

say the masks are in the

5:12

vast majority of cases not to

5:14

conceal their identities while they're being

5:16

violent or committing other crimes or

5:18

harassing people that are protecting the

5:20

identities of peaceful protesters, especially pro

5:22

-Palestinian ones, who've been getting doxxed.

5:24

when they're not wearing masks, right?

5:27

That is opponents of their position,

5:29

take their photos and post them

5:31

on social media sites. And then

5:33

it's the protesters who might be

5:35

subject to organized harassment campaigns or

5:37

even become victims of violence or

5:39

now with Trump, maybe get deported

5:42

even if they're green card holders. So

5:44

with what you just described,

5:46

can people wear masks at

5:48

protests if they're not committing

5:51

crimes? The answer

5:53

is yes, they can wear them

5:55

at protests if they're not

5:57

committing crimes, but if it were

5:59

to escalate into some sort

6:01

of property damage or something where

6:03

they could get charged with

6:05

a class A misdemeanor or above,

6:08

and they were wearing, this is

6:10

another key part, if they

6:13

have to have been wearing

6:15

the mask with the intent of

6:17

concealing their identity. And in

6:19

that case, you probably could make

6:21

that case. But yes, I

6:23

mean, you have to commit a

6:25

crime, allegedly commit a crime

6:27

first to be charged with the

6:29

secondary crime, which is concealing

6:31

your identity to a beta breast.

6:34

got it so listeners which of

6:36

these items in the budget agreement

6:38

do you have a strong opinion

6:40

about or a question about for

6:42

john cambell or albany reporter two

6:44

one two four three three wnyc

6:46

two one two four three three

6:48

nine six nine two call or

6:50

text on this consequential policy day

6:52

in new york state With

6:54

the backdrop, I guess we

6:57

should say, of Governor

6:59

Hockel trying to set herself

7:01

up for reelection next

7:03

year, including a possible primary

7:05

from the left and

7:07

possible November challenge if she

7:10

gets the nomination from

7:12

Republicans like Mike Lawler or

7:14

Elise Stefanik. 212 -433 -WNYC -433

7:16

-9692. Let's keep going down

7:18

this list of policies agreed to

7:20

last night. Medical aid and

7:22

dying, did that pass? That's

7:25

separate from the budget actually

7:27

that's that's not being debated as

7:29

part of the budget But

7:31

there it is there is some

7:34

stuff happening on that. That's

7:36

so you're referring to a bill

7:38

that would excuse me allow

7:40

terminally ill patients who Only have

7:42

a little little time left

7:44

to live to request Essentially medication

7:47

from it from a doctor

7:49

that would end their life This

7:51

has been a controversial

7:53

topic in Albany for well

7:55

over a decade. Every

7:58

single year you have demonstrators in

8:00

the halls pushing for this and pushing

8:02

for this. It's never gotten a

8:04

vote. It's looking like it's going to

8:06

get an assembly vote perhaps even

8:08

today, which is a big step. That

8:10

is not something that has happened

8:12

before. It is, the

8:15

Senate has always been viewed as

8:17

perhaps the bigger roadblock and the Senate

8:19

has not committed to taking that bill

8:21

up, but the fact that the Assembly

8:23

is taking it up could be a

8:25

sign that they think there's a chance

8:27

the Senate could, because otherwise why would

8:30

you take that vote and put, you

8:32

know, your members in a, perhaps a

8:34

politically vulnerable position if it's not going

8:36

to get approved. But yeah, there could

8:38

be a vote on that as soon

8:40

as today, in the Senate. So I

8:43

should say as a correction to myself,

8:45

I overstated in the intro then what

8:47

happened on this. I saw a headline

8:49

that said, medical aid and dying bill

8:51

moves forward in Albany. And I thought,

8:53

oh, that got wrapped into the budget

8:55

too. But you're saying it got out

8:58

of committee in the assembly. And that's

9:00

the first of several steps. That's further

9:02

than it's gotten before. But to be

9:04

clear, that has not passed. And

9:07

it's looking like it's going to get

9:09

a full assembly vote. But no, it hasn't

9:11

been wrapped up in the budget negotiations

9:13

in the sense that it hasn't been negotiated

9:15

with the governor. We don't know where

9:17

the governor stands on that. And obviously, if

9:19

the assembly passes it, the Senate's got

9:22

to pass it. The governor's got to sign

9:24

any law. And the Catholic Church is

9:26

against and some advocates for people

9:28

with disabilities or other vulnerable

9:30

groups who fear that they

9:32

may be pressured into requesting

9:35

aid and dying early termination

9:37

of their lives when they're

9:39

terminally ill, that

9:41

those are some of the groups opposed. All

9:43

right, next item then. There

9:45

was another rollback from the 2019

9:48

law, generally called the bail

9:50

reform bill, but this rollback is

9:52

not about bail itself, rather

9:54

it's about when prosecutors have to

9:56

share the evidence they have

9:58

with the defense. Now this can

10:00

sound legalistic and wonky and

10:02

make people's eyes glaze over, but

10:04

tell us briefly John, what's it

10:06

really about and why did prosecutors and

10:08

some politicians want this so much? Yeah,

10:11

this is this is about what's

10:13

known as criminal discovery and that is

10:15

that's the the rules and the

10:17

deadlines for when prosecutors and defense have

10:19

to share evidence prior to a

10:22

trial and the idea is You know

10:24

if you are charged with a

10:26

crime and you are weighing whether to

10:28

go to trial or whether to

10:30

take a plea You have the right

10:32

to see the evidence against you.

10:34

You you have the right to know

10:36

essentially the pillars of the case

10:38

against you from a from an evidentiary

10:40

basis, so In 2019,

10:42

they passed some reforms to

10:44

tie those deadlines to

10:47

speedy trial deadlines and essentially

10:49

get the evidence to

10:51

the defense in a quicker

10:53

manner. Prosecutors have claimed,

10:55

with some evidence, that These deadlines

10:57

have been difficult to meet and

11:00

have led to an increase in

11:02

dismissals because they forgot this piece

11:04

of evidence or they missed this

11:06

piece of evidence. They didn't get

11:08

it until after the deadline. So

11:11

essentially the governor and district

11:13

attorneys, largely from New York City,

11:15

insisted on changes to that

11:17

to make it a little easier

11:19

on prosecutors. That was

11:21

a big fight with the

11:23

legislature, which stood behind these

11:26

2019 reforms. where they

11:28

ended up is they they made

11:30

a few changes we still haven't

11:32

seen language but as the governor

11:34

laid it out last night you

11:36

know they're adding in more leeway

11:38

for judges to to consider the

11:40

totality of the evidence and you

11:42

know if maybe a piece of

11:44

evidence wasn't handed over that wasn't

11:46

terribly wasn't super critical to the

11:49

case. Maybe they can allow the

11:51

case to continue rather than dismiss

11:53

it. And they also are going

11:55

to allow the judges to determine

11:57

whether there was any prejudice against

11:59

the defendant, whether the defendant was

12:01

harmed by this lack of by

12:03

a piece of evidence that wasn't

12:05

shared in deciding whether to allow

12:08

the case to go on. We'll

12:10

get into some of the actual budget

12:12

items in the budget. in a minute, but

12:14

some people are calling and texting about

12:16

some of the non -budget items at the

12:19

budget that we've touched on so far. And

12:21

I think Tristan in Brooklyn is

12:24

not happy with this masking compromise.

12:26

Tristan, you're on WNYC. Thank you

12:28

for calling in. Hi,

12:31

yeah. Thanks for having me. So

12:34

what are you thinking? Yeah, so I've been, yeah,

12:36

I've been Really disappointed to see

12:38

the masking stuff make it into

12:40

the budget process. I call both

12:43

my representatives Got my displeasure with

12:45

it. I'm glad I got watered

12:47

down But you know, I really

12:49

see this as a pattern with

12:51

Kathy Huckle where she's trying to

12:53

be some sort of I don't

12:55

know tough on crime person and

12:57

it in very like to me

12:59

honestly fascistic ways she's You know

13:01

trying to make it a crime

13:03

to wear a mask she you

13:05

know CUNY added

13:07

someone for Palestinian studies added a

13:09

position in the CUNY system and

13:11

she stepped in to quash that

13:13

and You know just a lot

13:16

of other things she's done that

13:18

I see her running the government

13:20

and just incredibly disappointed with her

13:22

as governor I don't know if

13:24

I could vote for her again

13:26

in a general election if you

13:28

had to choose between Kathy Hockel

13:31

say Elise Stefanik or abstaining a

13:33

nightmare scenario. Would you take that

13:35

risk? from your point of view? You

13:39

know, it's hard. Maybe I wouldn't if

13:41

at least a phonic, but, you know,

13:43

I've really just lost complete support for

13:45

her as governor. I'm really hoping someone

13:47

else runs against her in the primary.

13:50

Tristan, thank you very much for your call. So,

13:52

John, you think he speaks for

13:54

a lot of progressives who are

13:57

unhappy with even this compromise on

13:59

the masks or even the fact

14:01

that she tried in the first

14:03

place, even if she failed to

14:05

go further on the masks. I

14:07

don't know if you know the

14:10

CUNY situation that Tristan referred to.

14:12

Did she impose a faculty member

14:14

or cancel a faculty member? And

14:17

is she going to get primaried from

14:19

the left next year on issues like these?

14:22

Well when you brought up Elise Stefanik

14:24

there I could hear Tristan's heart sink

14:26

right through the radio I mean that

14:28

was that I could tell that that

14:30

was a difficult one for him, but

14:32

you know Tristan said You know that

14:34

the governor is trying I can't remember

14:36

his exact words But he said something

14:38

in the effect of you know public

14:40

safety measures and and you know she's

14:42

trying to be this public safety governor

14:44

and that is accurate. Yes.

14:46

And why is that? It's

14:48

because in 2022, Lee

14:50

Zeldin, the Republican candidate, used

14:53

the issue of public safety and

14:55

the perception of a lack

14:57

of public safety against the governor

14:59

in a really targeted, calculated,

15:01

expert way, and only lost by

15:03

five and a half points

15:05

to the governor in a deep

15:07

blue state. So since then, Kathy

15:10

Hockel has been trying, she would

15:12

quibble with me saying she's trying

15:14

to shore up her record on

15:17

public safety, but she's certainly trying

15:19

to sell her record on public

15:21

safety. And, you know, these issues

15:23

with the mask issue is part

15:25

of that, the discovery reform issue

15:27

is part of that, involuntary commitment

15:30

changes, which we haven't discussed yet.

15:32

That's part of this budget agreement

15:34

as well. That's part of, you

15:36

know, presenting herself as the public

15:38

safety governor. And that is intended

15:40

to help ward off challenges from

15:43

the right when she's up for

15:45

reelection next year, if she gets

15:47

through a Democratic primary. Craig

15:50

in Brooklyn is calling about

15:53

the changes to the discovery laws.

15:55

Craig's a lawyer. Craig, you're

15:57

on WNYC. Hello. Hi,

15:59

thank you for having me. Yeah, one of

16:01

the things that was a major, major

16:03

blow, and I think that we're going to

16:05

feel, is this change to this discovery

16:07

reform that was thrown through plus part of

16:09

this budget. Really, what disturbs

16:11

me here is that most people in

16:13

New York do not even realize

16:16

the limited amount of discovery we were

16:18

given in criminal defense, oftentimes taking

16:20

pleas without really knowing what the case

16:22

was, how good the plaintiff's case

16:24

was, sorry, the DA's case

16:26

was. We wouldn't get grand jury

16:28

minutes until basically we were

16:30

being sent out to trial and

16:32

having to review files literally

16:34

and needing to pick a jury

16:36

very quickly. Really, really a

16:38

terrible setback, especially at the time

16:40

when we're seeing defense counsel

16:42

being attacked on all fronts now.

16:46

And again, the other thing that disturbed

16:48

me about it is that these

16:50

discovery forms were being put through without

16:52

any real consultation with any of

16:54

the major criminal defense bars, even New

16:56

York City and New York State,

16:58

or even federally. So it's really, really

17:00

a strong arm tactic that I

17:02

think that's being unfairly put forth, and

17:04

really gonna hurt defendants. The argument

17:06

here, and this too, of course, is

17:08

part of Kathy Hockel, public safety

17:10

governor. The argument that I've

17:12

heard from proponents of this

17:14

change is that so many

17:16

cases that would have

17:18

resulted usually in plea bargains

17:20

and guilty pleas have now

17:22

not been able to get

17:24

there and the cases have

17:26

been dismissed because the prosecutors

17:28

were given too short a

17:30

time frame to gather and

17:32

present their evidence to the

17:34

defense and that's and you

17:36

know hurt public safety that

17:38

there's then been recidivism repeat

17:40

offenses by some of the

17:42

same people as a result.

17:44

What's your response to that?

17:47

Well, my thing is that there

17:49

are other states that are known

17:51

for being very strong on crimes

17:53

such as Florida, but Florida actually

17:55

always has had much more liberal

17:57

discovery policies in place, which is

17:59

shocking, basically, where we have someone

18:02

who's liberties at stake. And

18:04

again, I can understand the question

18:06

becomes is that why are there

18:08

prosecutors bringing cases immediately to trial

18:10

that they really have a thin

18:12

file on or don't have enough

18:14

on? And I understand that some

18:16

prosecutors feel that they're rushed and

18:18

maybe there's been a few cases

18:20

where there may have been something

18:22

dismissed on the 30 -30 grounds because

18:25

of failure to abide with the

18:27

discovery laws. But again, we

18:29

really do owe a duty to protect

18:31

the innocent or the wrongly accused. It

18:34

goes back to saying that many

18:36

times the pleas that were being given

18:38

to us that we were forced

18:40

into were being given without us having

18:43

full information and discovery on the

18:45

defendant's side, and that's the real problem

18:47

here. We're being told to zealously

18:49

defend our clients, and yet at the

18:51

same time, not being given anything

18:53

that the prosecutor has and being rushed.

18:56

Thank you very much for your call. We appreciate

18:58

it. I guess we will see how this

19:00

plays out once it gets implemented. A

19:02

few more minutes with our Albany reporter,

19:05

John Campbell, on the many budgetary and

19:07

non -budgetary items that got agreed to

19:09

in the annual New York State budget

19:11

bill announced by Governor Hockel

19:13

last night. And,

19:15

you know, just as you say, John,

19:17

that Hockel wants to be a

19:19

public safety governor now, based on what

19:22

happened nationally in the elections last

19:24

year, as well as in New York.

19:26

She also wants to be the

19:28

affordability governor, right, based on

19:30

another thing that helped Trump get elected

19:32

and some Republicans get elected. So let's

19:34

go to some of the actual budget

19:36

items in the budget. many

19:38

new yorkers will be getting a

19:40

check in the mail from the

19:42

state yeah that's right uh it

19:45

she's calling it an inflation refund

19:47

check and these these checks will

19:49

cost new york state about two

19:51

billion dollars and she says they're

19:53

gonna go to to more than

19:55

eight million new yorkers checks would

19:57

be up to four hundred dollars

19:59

per family $200 for individual filers

20:02

now that is scaled down from

20:04

what the governor originally proposed in

20:06

January when she proposed $500 and

20:08

$300 checks that would have cost

20:10

about three billion dollars She cut

20:12

a billion dollars off of that

20:14

as part of this final deal

20:16

lawmakers were kind of mixed on

20:19

the the idea from the start

20:21

The governor insisted on it paired

20:23

it back. We don't have the

20:25

exact Eligibility requirements yet.

20:27

That's something that we'll see when

20:29

the the bills are printed and we

20:31

see it in the the actual

20:33

bill But yeah, no a whole bunch

20:36

of New Yorkers are gonna be

20:38

getting getting checks mailed straight to them

20:40

as part of this budget and

20:42

bigger child tax credits to Yeah, it

20:44

is the child tax credit in

20:46

New York is would be increased to

20:48

a thousand dollars for kids younger

20:51

than four $500 for kids

20:53

four to 16. That

20:55

basically doubles the credit for

20:57

the average family. That

20:59

was another big thing for

21:01

the governor. Now that

21:03

said, also, this

21:05

is the budget, but if there

21:07

are big federal cuts... might

21:09

have to come back later this

21:11

year and rejigger the budget

21:13

to account for that. So some

21:15

of these things, it's like,

21:17

okay, it's in there now, but

21:19

if three months from now,

21:22

the Trump administration and Congress cut,

21:24

make big federal cuts to

21:26

New York, New York's budget has

21:28

more than $90 billion in

21:30

federal funding in it, who

21:32

knows what's gonna happen? right in the

21:34

Trump era there's nothing more certain than

21:36

uncertainty and that's certainly true in the

21:38

case of funding for the states funding

21:40

for all kinds of things as we

21:42

know so yes there may be revisions

21:44

in the middle of the new york

21:46

state fiscal year when they figure out

21:48

what's going to happen in the next

21:51

federal fiscal year kind of to that

21:53

point we had republican Hudson

21:55

Valley congressman and likely gubernatorial hopeful

21:57

Mike Lawler on the show

21:59

last week. And he walked an

22:01

interesting line on the size

22:03

of the New York state budget.

22:05

Listen to this clip in

22:07

which he starts by distancing himself

22:09

from Elon Musk's term for

22:11

how he's approaching the federal budget.

22:13

Musk famously said he's taking

22:15

a chainsaw to it, but we'll

22:17

hear where else Lawler goes. It

22:20

doesn't mean that you take a chainsaw to it.

22:22

It doesn't mean that you slash and burn But

22:25

it does mean

22:27

that there needs to

22:29

be a level

22:31

of introspection and really

22:33

verifying that the

22:35

dollars being spent are

22:37

necessary and effective. Do

22:40

you think that sets up a

22:42

big debate on the budget for

22:44

next year John Lola also said

22:47

in our interview New York spends

22:49

more than Texas and Florida state

22:51

governments combined Despite having tens of

22:53

millions fewer people has Huckle been

22:55

asked yet to defend this much

22:57

spending per person and whether it's

22:59

wasteful and comes with too much

23:01

of a tax burden I don't

23:03

know that she's been asked directly

23:05

like that, but she's certainly been

23:07

asked a lot about Medicaid

23:11

in New York is, along

23:13

with education, they are the

23:15

two biggest cost drivers in the

23:17

New York state budget. This

23:20

budget is

23:22

$254 billion. That's

23:25

more than a quarter trillion dollars.

23:27

It is very, very big. It grows. every

23:30

single year. And a

23:32

big driver of that is

23:34

increases in Medicaid costs,

23:36

which that is generally split

23:38

between the state and

23:41

federal government. And New

23:43

York offers a lot

23:45

of Medicaid services that, for

23:47

example, Florida does not

23:50

provide dental services, for example.

23:53

And so the question is, how

23:55

do you rein in those costs?

23:57

There is an acknowledgement from the

23:59

governor's office and from the state

24:02

budget director that, specifically the state

24:04

budget director, that the growth in

24:06

Medicaid is unsustainable in New York.

24:08

Now the question is, how do

24:10

you make structural changes so the

24:12

long term you get those back

24:14

into back into whack, so to

24:16

speak. So Yeah, I mean, the

24:18

governor has faced some of those

24:21

questions and has acknowledged that the

24:23

growth is unsustainable, but But I

24:25

you know, I think critics would

24:27

say that there's probably not enough

24:29

done to, you know, make those

24:31

structural changes necessary going forward to

24:34

know, get things in line here.

24:36

John Campbell, our Albany reporter. Hear

24:39

more about the budget through the day

24:41

on the radio or read his article on

24:43

Gothamist, our local news website. John, thanks

24:45

a lot for hopping on. Thank

24:47

you so much, Brian.