0:00

Listeners

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supported

0:11

W.N.Y.C

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Studios.

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This

0:19

is the Brian Layer show on WNYC.

0:21

Good morning again, everyone. You know about

0:23

the glass ceiling, right? Do you know

0:25

about the paper ceiling? This is how

0:28

we continue our series on becoming upwardly

0:30

mobile without a college degree. If you're

0:32

trying to get a better job without

0:34

a four-year degree, you already know it

0:36

can be an uphill climb. You might

0:38

have the skills, you might have

0:40

the experience, but your resume doesn't

0:42

say. B A and that one

0:44

line can keep you from getting

0:46

in the door. So today we're

0:49

going to talk about that invisible

0:51

barrier, often called the paper ceiling.

0:53

It's the set of degree requirements,

0:55

hiring software, and outdated assumptions that

0:57

block millions of workers from better

0:59

paying jobs, even though they're qualified.

1:01

These are workers known as stars,

1:04

as we've talked about earlier in

1:06

this series, stars standing for, scaled

1:08

through alternative routes. But there's also

1:10

some good news that's new. A

1:12

new report from the non-profit Opportunity

1:15

at Work shows that employers are

1:17

starting to shift. Some are rethinking

1:19

degree requirements, some states are trying

1:21

new policies at the political level

1:23

on this. There is real momentum.

1:26

So we've talked mostly in this

1:28

series so far from the perspective

1:30

of workers and perspective workers and

1:32

how they can get qualified through

1:35

alternative routes for good jobs. But

1:37

today, if you're trying to advance

1:39

your career without a degree, you

1:41

know about where the opportunities are

1:43

and what are employers thinking? Joining

1:46

us are Layla O'Kain, Senior Director

1:48

of Data Projects at Opportunity at

1:50

Work, out with their State of

1:52

the Paper Sealing Report, and Cole

1:54

Knapper, Vice President of People Analytics

1:57

at Lightcast, the company. that tracks

1:59

real-time hiring data and one of

2:01

those that's made the pledge to

2:03

quote, tear the paper ceiling. We'll

2:06

talk about what that means. Layla

2:08

and Cole, thanks for joining us.

2:10

Welcome to WNYC. Thanks Brian. It's

2:12

great to be on. So Layla,

2:15

what's the headline from your report?

2:17

Great question. So I think the

2:19

headline really is that we've seen

2:21

this trendline. So over the last

2:23

generation, stars systematically lost access to

2:26

7.5 million jobs. And just recently,

2:28

we have noticed that the decline

2:30

is slowing and stars are actually

2:32

regaining access to more than 750,000

2:35

jobs. And so we are reporting

2:37

today to show that trendline has

2:39

changed and to tell you a

2:41

little bit more about what our

2:44

employer partners are doing to actually

2:46

make those changes. There's some great

2:48

examples. One is the state of

2:50

Colorado. They have through executive order.

2:53

created a full transformation from top

2:55

to bottom where they are reviewing

2:57

all of their job descriptions and

2:59

trying to understand where they can

3:01

focus on skills as opposed to

3:04

an education requirement, and then also

3:06

retraining all of their hiring managers

3:08

to focus on skills-based hiring. And

3:10

so they've really worked from all

3:13

the way from their governor down

3:15

through the entire organization, the state

3:17

of Colorado as an employer, to

3:19

rethink how they are sourcing talent

3:22

and to create this upward mobility

3:24

for stars. And one of the

3:26

themes we've discussed in this series

3:28

is that stars aren't stuck because

3:30

they're self-sabotizing, but instead, because they're

3:33

being held back, you've described some

3:35

of what that holding back involves.

3:37

So listeners, does any of this

3:39

mirror your own story? Two, one,

3:42

two, four, three, W, N, Y,

3:44

C? If you're someone without a

3:46

college degree. How are you finding

3:48

work right now if you have

3:51

to battle the paper ceiling? 2-1-2-4-3-2.

3:53

Are you hitting wall? because of

3:55

that ceiling, maybe that's mixing a

3:57

metaphor, but employers, how are you

4:00

looking yourselves in the eye, looking

4:02

yourselves in the mirror, and confronting

4:04

the paper ceiling, and when it's

4:06

really necessary and when it's really

4:08

not? 2.12. 433. W.N.Y.C. Two, one,

4:11

two, four, three, three, nine, six,

4:13

nine, two, employers or anyone else,

4:15

tell us your stories or ask

4:17

a question of our guests, two,

4:20

one, two, four, three, three, nine,

4:22

six, nine, two, call or text.

4:24

Cole, let's ground this from your

4:26

perspective for our listeners a little

4:29

bit. What is light cast? data

4:31

firm. And one of the things

4:33

that we do is we support

4:35

the government, higher education, and private

4:38

enterprise with the data, depending on

4:40

what their needs are. And I

4:42

was curious about how this was

4:44

framed up, Brian. I pulled some

4:46

data really quickly for some research

4:49

that we partnered with the National

4:51

Governors Association in late 2024. And

4:53

we found that 70% of private

4:55

sector job postings right now still

4:58

require a college degree. But if

5:00

you're looking at state government jobs,

5:02

it goes down to 61 percent,

5:04

and federal government jobs, again in

5:07

late 2024, was only 43 percent.

5:09

And I think one of the

5:11

gaps that you see and the

5:13

other guest pointed this out a

5:16

second ago is some states have

5:18

actually been pretty progressive in making

5:20

this shift. 25 states have actually

5:22

moved to skills-based hiring and one

5:24

US territory of Puerto Rico as

5:27

well. And so I think if

5:29

you got to the point that

5:31

where if all 50 states were

5:33

doing it, they would probably be

5:36

at the same rate at the

5:38

federal government of about 43% of

5:40

job postings requiring a college degree.

5:42

From some of the data that

5:45

we've pulled, though, if you look

5:47

at the top 19, or top

5:49

20 job hosts. that are out

5:51

there that are most frequent, 19

5:54

of them do not require a

5:56

college degree. And the only one

5:58

that does require a college degree

6:00

is a registered nurse. And there

6:02

are vast shortages in a lot

6:05

of these type of roles that

6:07

aren't requiring college degrees at the

6:09

moment. You've talked about the way

6:11

AI and algorithms influence hiring. Can

6:14

those systems accidentally filter out stars?

6:16

People skilled through alternative routes, you

6:18

know, rather than a B.A., even

6:20

if they're qualified or does AI

6:23

perhaps work in their favor? Yeah,

6:25

that's a great question. So I

6:27

think AI can change work in

6:29

a couple of different ways. One

6:31

is how employers are screening candidates

6:34

and looking for workers. The second

6:36

is how job seekers and stars

6:38

are looking for jobs. And the

6:40

third is sort of the nature

6:43

of work itself and the skills

6:45

that people are using on the

6:47

job. how employers are screening candidates,

6:49

we do see that there could

6:52

be some bias, right, baked into

6:54

AI. But the good news is

6:56

employers are really aware of this,

6:58

and there are platforms, technology platforms,

7:01

that are working to combat this.

7:03

So, for example, indeed, has committed

7:05

to removing barriers for 30 million

7:07

hires by 2030, and they are

7:09

very aware of how a platform

7:12

might be used to sort of

7:14

accidentally screen out top talent, including

7:16

stars. And then stars can also

7:18

use generative AI. to sort of

7:21

help them navigate their own careers.

7:23

We have partnered with an organization

7:25

that is helping to build a

7:27

chatbot career navigator for stars, so

7:30

they can put in the types

7:32

of work that they're interested in,

7:34

the types of skills that they

7:36

have, and it will suggest some

7:39

upwardly mobile career trajectories that they

7:41

can start to investigate for them.

7:43

So, you know. Technological change is

7:45

in gravity. We can make decisions

7:47

about it and how we use

7:50

it, and I think it can

7:52

be used to support STARS mobility

7:54

just as much as any other

7:56

technologies. Cole, anything to add on

7:59

that? The thing I

8:01

would say is if you're looking

8:03

at this from a private enterprise

8:05

standpoint, one of the things that

8:07

organizations are having to do is

8:09

they're needing to challenge their talent

8:11

strategy and the biases that they

8:13

have in their talent strategy. And

8:15

so if you're thinking about how

8:17

can you bring more stars into

8:20

your organization, you need to first

8:22

question. Do you need a college

8:24

degree as a requirement? Because you

8:26

mentioned earlier, you know, are these

8:28

applicant tracking systems? Are they, are

8:30

they kind of biasing this and

8:32

looking for it? If a job

8:34

posting requires a college degree that.

8:36

An applicant tracking system might weed

8:38

them out automatically. I wouldn't claim

8:41

to be an expert on applicant

8:43

tracking systems and how they work.

8:45

But it's important if organizations are

8:47

making this shift to being skills-based

8:49

organizations, that skills-based hiring is the

8:51

first part and first step in

8:53

that talent strategy, and that using

8:55

the ability to assess for skills

8:57

through an applicant tracking system or

8:59

through their ability to hire folks

9:01

is going to be the thing

9:04

that opens up those barriers. a

9:06

couple of stories coming in and

9:08

text messages, listener rights. I'm an

9:10

archivist and have worked with reputable

9:12

places for over 10 years, but

9:14

I found it very difficult to

9:16

procure stable work because I went

9:18

to art school and fell into

9:20

my career. I'm in a stage

9:22

in life where it would be

9:24

difficult to go back to school,

9:27

not to mention costly, so I've

9:29

expanded where my skill set. might

9:31

be applicable but to no avail.

9:33

So there's somebody possibly hitting the

9:35

paper ceiling. Here's another one. My

9:37

wife became an actress directly after

9:39

high school. and never went to

9:41

college, ended up working her way

9:43

up the corporate ladder to direct

9:45

her position, concentrating hard on skill

9:48

building and network. After nine years

9:50

at a high-end fashion company, she

9:52

just found a new job, and

9:54

only one application rejected her for

9:56

not having a BA outright. The

9:58

rest were willing to talk to

10:00

her based on her resume and

10:02

work history. So that's a really

10:04

interesting story to me, Layla, because

10:06

it indicates that different employers who

10:08

are trying to hire for the

10:11

same kind of position may have

10:13

different relationships to this paper ceiling.

10:15

Yeah, absolutely. I think we see

10:17

that some employers use this degree

10:19

as sort of a proxy for

10:21

skills, right? And it maybe it

10:23

seems easier to them to think,

10:25

oh, well, if I just make

10:27

sure you chop the box of

10:29

a degree, that will, you know,

10:31

guarantee. talent and that just isn't

10:34

isn't reality but I can understand

10:36

why folks who maybe don't realize

10:38

the level of skill that they're

10:40

missing out on why that might

10:42

be kind of their their instinct

10:44

and so we are seeing actually

10:46

employers really change their behavior around

10:48

this and as they become aware

10:50

we now see actually four in

10:52

ten employers are aware of the

10:55

paper ceiling and 15% of stars

10:57

have sort of describing themselves as

10:59

stars so this increased awareness is

11:01

leading to the sort of behavior

11:03

change that we would like to

11:05

see which is changing the way

11:07

that they're thinking about hiring and

11:09

advancing their work in the pursuit

11:11

of more mobility for stars. I'm

11:13

going to take a call from

11:15

Bow in Manhattan, who I think

11:18

wants to question in a certain

11:20

in a certain respect, the entire

11:22

premise of the series, which is,

11:24

you know, building an upwardly mobile

11:26

career without a college degree. I

11:28

think Bow's going to say we're

11:30

leaving something really important out. Right,

11:32

Bow, you're on WNYC. Thank you

11:34

for calling in. Yes, I am.

11:36

I'm okay. Yeah, I think that...

11:38

All these discussions about the value

11:41

of a college degree, which I

11:43

can understand and people have to

11:45

make that choice, think to me

11:47

leave out the fact that there

11:49

is a value both to the

11:51

individual and to society of having

11:53

an educated population. And going to

11:55

college, there's really no substitute to

11:57

going to college. Period. to you

11:59

on this because I think you

12:02

group opportunity at work. is so

12:04

focused on helping to empower people

12:06

without college degrees to make a

12:08

living, but you are focused specifically

12:10

on the economic question. You know,

12:12

there's a lot of politics in

12:14

this right now. There's a culture

12:16

war in the United States, you

12:18

might have noticed, and one of

12:20

the critiques of what's going on

12:22

at places like the universities in

12:25

Florida and Iran DeSantis is... rule

12:27

where he really wants to emphasize

12:29

people who are going for degrees

12:31

that are economically focused is, hey

12:33

there are people in this country

12:35

who don't want an educated population,

12:37

who don't want people grounded in

12:39

history and literature, you know, only

12:41

in skills. So have you thought

12:43

about that question? Yeah, we think

12:45

about that a lot. I think

12:48

it's a great question. I think

12:50

if you're focused on economic mobility

12:52

and on the labor market, if

12:54

you don't have skills-based hiring and

12:56

if you don't have a star

12:58

strategy, you don't have a talent

13:00

strategy because you're leaving off half

13:02

of the American workforce. Well, we

13:04

totally agree there is a value

13:06

to having a... more education in

13:09

the population, I think what we

13:11

would say is this is about

13:13

college and everybody else. So if

13:15

you have the skills to do

13:17

the job, you should be able

13:19

to get the job, no matter

13:21

how you gained those skills, whether

13:23

that was through work experience, whether

13:25

that was in the military, whether

13:27

that was through going to community

13:29

college, or some other form of

13:32

training, all of those are valid

13:34

and should be seen as valid

13:36

ways of proving that you have

13:38

the skills to do the job.

13:40

Someone else's story. Justin and Morris

13:42

County. You're on WNYC. Hi, Justin.

13:44

Hi, good morning. So I'm one

13:46

of these people that has acquired

13:48

a tremendous amount of skills through

13:50

a very interesting life, but I

13:52

struggle with trying to move ahead

13:55

with this whole concept of paper

13:57

sealing. When we started having bots

13:59

and applying online, I mean, we've

14:01

all... We have a four-point phone,

14:03

all white, at the bottom, and

14:05

the margins on the resumes to

14:07

try to fool a lot with,

14:09

you know, keywords that we think

14:11

they might be looking for. There's

14:13

just, in a booming economy, I've

14:16

been able to work at high

14:18

levels and IT and other, you

14:20

know, very normally college-oriented kinds of

14:22

careers. But then when the economy

14:24

falters, I'm back into other things,

14:26

either going back into working in

14:28

manual labor labor, theater, theater production,

14:30

I'm currently working in wine and

14:32

spirits and spirits distribution distribution. But

14:34

I'm looking for a way to

14:36

get around that and work with

14:39

it. I know a lot of

14:41

this program is focused on the

14:43

employers and how they should be

14:45

looking for guys like me, but

14:47

how do I get in front

14:49

of them? Yeah, I think what

14:51

I loved about hearing about from

14:53

that that guest is you know

14:55

their focus Continually on getting the

14:57

skills that are necessary for employers

14:59

One of the things that I

15:02

pulled up in preparation for this

15:04

is looking at the top skills

15:06

that were in job postings right

15:08

now And so if you just

15:10

look at the top five it's

15:12

communication a valid driver's license customer

15:14

service lifting ability and operations management

15:16

And so all of those things,

15:18

I don't believe any of them,

15:20

require a college degree necessarily to

15:22

be able to have that type

15:25

of skill. But these are what's

15:27

available in the top job postings

15:29

that are out there. And so

15:31

what I think about is we

15:33

recently published a research report called

15:35

the speed of skill change. And

15:37

so between the years of 2021

15:39

and 2024, the average job has

15:41

seen one third of its skills

15:43

change. And if you look at

15:46

the five years prior to that,

15:48

That's a rate of change that's

15:50

even higher than the five years

15:52

prior. And so not only are

15:54

skills changing, they're changing more quickly

15:56

than ever. And so what I

15:58

appreciate about the guest is that

16:00

they're kind of staying up to

16:02

date with the skills that are

16:04

changing. And again, it comes down

16:06

to the employers if they're if

16:09

they're willing to accept, you know,

16:11

the type of a skill change.

16:13

hiring versus needing that bachelor's and

16:15

just a comment to the the

16:17

prior comment from the the the

16:19

the prior caller or caller they

16:21

were they were saying you know

16:23

we need an educated society and

16:25

I think what we're saying is

16:27

We need an educated society, but

16:29

it doesn't necessarily need to be

16:32

credentials-based, it needs to be skills-based.

16:34

And you can still educate a

16:36

society, and there's still a burden

16:38

on employers to make sure that

16:40

they're giving the employees the skills

16:42

that they need to be successful

16:44

in the economy as we move

16:46

forward. I want to take one

16:48

more paper-sealing story from one more

16:50

caller. Aaron, in Somerset County, you're

16:53

on WNYC. Hi Aaron. I appreciate

16:55

my opportunity to be able to

16:57

speak to you today. The paper

16:59

ceiling is real. And just kind

17:01

of seeing, like, I don't have

17:03

a college degree, and I have,

17:05

I was experienced, I'm extremely educated,

17:07

and I have skills. So I

17:09

find myself in a place where,

17:11

you know what, I've been in

17:13

C-suites, talk to CIOs, CEOs, things

17:16

of that nature. So you find

17:18

yourself either, or overqualified. But what

17:20

I really think is missing is

17:22

the human aspect, because, you know,

17:24

not to talk down on any

17:26

of the job sites. But, you

17:28

know, when I get a job

17:30

posting, hey, this job looks good

17:32

for you, a veterinarian, nothing in

17:34

my past is veterinarian. How did

17:36

this algorithm, you know, spit that

17:39

out toward me? And, you know,

17:41

the best thing that you can

17:43

do. When you really, when you're

17:45

looking at assessed talent, it's beak

17:47

the person. Because you're hiring the

17:49

person, you're not hiring a resident.

17:51

And you want to see who

17:53

you're dealing with. And I think

17:55

for, just for employers, you know,

17:57

when an employer is posting for

18:00

job, the same way they have

18:02

access to technology to do

18:04

a whole bunch of different

18:06

things, you know, they should put

18:08

together their own parameters.

18:10

Take our skills test. Can

18:12

you pass this test? Can you

18:14

do this? Find out where people

18:17

skills are? Instead of just,

18:19

you know, just throwing spaghetti

18:21

at the wall and things

18:23

with it. Aaron, I'm going to

18:25

leave it there because we're at

18:27

a time in the segment, but

18:29

that's a compelling story and please

18:31

call us again. So to wrap

18:33

up by following up on Aaron's

18:35

call and the one before him,

18:37

Layla for employers listening, maybe they

18:39

want to hire differently, but aren't

18:41

sure how. So what's one first

18:43

step they can take to make

18:45

their hiring more open to people

18:48

skilled through alternative routes? The first step

18:50

is just to take a look at their

18:52

requirements and see if a bachelor's degree is

18:54

sort of maybe standing in for a set

18:57

of skills. And if they want to learn

18:59

more, they can go to tear the paper

19:01

sealing.org or opportunity at work.org to get some

19:03

pro tips on how to start their skills-based

19:06

hiring journey. Layla O'Kain, a senior

19:08

director of data projects at Opportunity

19:10

at Work. Cole Napa is vice

19:12

president of People Analytics at Likast,

19:14

a company that tracks real-time hiring

19:16

data. Thank you both for joining

19:18

us today in our series on

19:20

being upwardly mobile without a college

19:23

degree. Thank you Brian for

19:25

having me. Thanks Brian.