0:00

I'm Kai Wright on the next notes

0:02

from America, a listener exit poll.

0:04

Orson writes, democracy, what

0:06

really motivated voters in these midterms?

0:08

And can we expect from the new political

0:11

order? Listen now wherever you get your

0:13

podcasts.

0:18

Listener supported, WNYC

0:21

Studios.

0:33

Brian Blair

0:33

on WNYC. If

0:36

you're listening on Monday, you

0:38

heard us cover the rising death toll

0:40

of inmates just one aspect

0:42

of what is being called a humanitarian crisis

0:45

at Rutgers Island. This year, eighteen

0:48

inmates have died in New York City jails,

0:51

or right after their release making it the

0:53

deadliest year since twenty thirteen when

0:55

there were many more people incarcerated at

0:57

Rutgers. In case you missed it, here's

1:00

a clip from our interview with

1:02

Luzandra Kadu, mother

1:04

of Stephan Kadu, who died

1:06

from meningitis while in custody at

1:08

Rykers last year. The

1:10

things that my son had to

1:12

indolgenea was

1:13

not fair, and it was not cool

1:15

for anyone to have to suffer.

1:18

No one should be put

1:19

in that place where lives are

1:21

being taken away every second, every

1:23

day.

1:26

New

1:26

York City officials are now looking for

1:29

ways to get the crisis under control

1:31

A big one took a step

1:34

in court yesterday or did it,

1:36

but little more background in his appearance

1:38

on this show last month control of Brett

1:40

Lander called for the appointment of

1:42

a federal receiver taking microzylate

1:45

out of the city's control altogether here's

1:48

his reasoning.

1:49

A receiver has the power to

1:53

move past, to cut through some of the

1:55

managerial issues, some of the procurement

1:57

shoes. Again, it's not a magic fix,

2:00

but I think at this moment of

2:02

of full scale emergency, it's necessary

2:04

to get the violence under control. A

2:07

federal judge held a hearing yesterday

2:09

on the appointment of the federal receiver

2:12

with us now to discuss the outcome of the

2:14

hearing and more about his reporting

2:16

on records is WNYC public

2:18

safety correspondent Matt Katz. We

2:20

will also touch on an emerging story

2:22

from his hometown of Philadelphia

2:25

where there's an attempt to remove the

2:27

famous progressive Hey, Matt.

2:29

Welcome back to the show. Thanks,

2:31

Brian. So

2:32

what did the Federal Judge decide in yesterday's

2:34

hearing on the appointment of the Federal Receiver?

2:37

How did and how did they reach their decision?

2:39

Yeah. No no receiver. This

2:42

is judge Laura Taylor Swain.

2:44

She heard arguments from the legal aid society,

2:46

which represents detainees at

2:49

Rykers and filed this class action suit

2:51

back in twenty eleven saying that

2:53

there were unconstitutional

2:55

violations at Rykers that suit

2:58

ended ended in a consent decree,

3:00

which is why the Federal Judge is

3:02

involved in this case. The

3:05

Federal Judge had appointed a monitor

3:07

seven years ago to oversee Rykers.

3:10

And finally, the legal aid society

3:12

this year said, listen, it's not enough.

3:15

in every way imaginable, Rykers

3:17

is more dangerous than it was back

3:19

in twenty eleven and twenty fifteen when

3:21

this consent decree began. So

3:24

they're say they said yesterday in court, listen, we need

3:26

a receiver. We need somebody to come in and literally

3:28

strip control of the gels

3:30

away from the city break

3:32

city laws that are holding back progress,

3:34

break union contracts, like unlimited

3:37

sick leave for for a correction

3:39

officers, which Some say is a

3:41

reason for a lot of the absences and

3:44

therefore a lot of the problems at

3:46

Rykers because there's just not enough staff there.

3:48

So they were arguing for for

3:51

a new aggressive federal intervention,

3:54

and the judge disagreed.

3:57

She was by

3:59

arguments

3:59

made by the correction commissioner,

4:02

Lewis Molina, who was appointed

4:04

by mayor Adams less than a year ago. that

4:07

and and by city attorneys, that

4:09

progress is starting to take hold there.

4:11

That there there's a glimmer of hope

4:13

that things are turning around at Ryker. And

4:16

the US attorney's office in the

4:18

southern district, Damian Williams office is

4:20

also a party to this suit, and

4:22

he also decided not

4:24

to support a receiver. Actually,

4:26

like, they they basically kind of stayed out of it. They

4:28

say we'll we'll reserve a judgment for a

4:30

later date, but we're not supporting

4:32

a receiver at this time. So

4:34

there's not a hearing until well another

4:36

hearing in this case, until well into next year.

4:38

So it looks like at least for the

4:40

foreseeable future. This dream

4:43

that a lot of activists

4:45

for incarcerated people had, a lot of

4:47

council members had, Brad Lander,

4:49

the the the city controller, was also pushing

4:51

for this. That dream of a federal

4:53

receiver is not going to happen

4:55

anytime soon. So so the

4:58

gels at Rykers will remain

5:00

under the control of Adams

5:02

in his administration. and

5:05

people are just gonna hope things get better there. But

5:07

there is no question things are

5:09

worse than they have been in many, many

5:11

years by almost every measure that

5:13

you look at. And from the reporting

5:15

that you released yesterday on

5:17

the progress or whatever the opposite of

5:19

progress is, since a federal

5:21

monitor arrived a number of

5:23

years ago, that's somebody from the federal

5:26

government to oversee it without it going

5:28

fully into federal receivership and

5:30

taking control away from the city.

5:32

Since that federal monitor arrived,

5:34

you wrote the rate

5:36

of fights and assaults per

5:39

detainee has nearly doubled

5:41

according to annual reports from the mayor's office.

5:43

A person in custody is

5:45

seven times more likely to be seriously

5:48

injured by another detainee. Staff

5:50

are almost twice as likely to be

5:52

assaulted, and flashings and

5:54

stabings have increased each of the

5:56

last four years. And that's on

5:58

top of this completely

6:01

unacceptable and rising

6:04

death rate at Rykers, which

6:06

has peaked with eighteen deaths already

6:08

this year, and the year isn't over yet.

6:11

So, Matt, I'm kind of astonished that the judge

6:14

came to the conclusion that progress is

6:16

being made. How did she come to that

6:18

conclusion? Yeah. III was

6:20

astonished as well. I mean, this

6:22

is the judge. It was on the it's been on the

6:24

case from twenty fifteen. She appointed

6:26

as you said, this federal monitor,

6:29

and if I could talk about him for a moment

6:31

-- Yeah. -- he he he was

6:33

a correction expert. He testified

6:36

in trials he would

6:38

come in and and consult jail

6:41

systems to help them fix the

6:43

place. So he was hired by the

6:45

federal government in twenty fifteen by

6:47

this judge essentially to

6:50

deal specifically with violence and

6:52

use of force, which are two areas

6:55

that have gotten far worse since he

6:57

got there. And even though

6:59

he was essentially hired by the federal

7:01

government, he's paid for by you.

7:03

He's paid for by city taxpayers. And

7:07

we we it took us a while, but we

7:09

dug into the records. We finally

7:11

found out how much he's been paid by the

7:13

by the city, and this came from the city law

7:15

department. He is a team of eight people,

7:17

the this monitoring team. And

7:19

they've made eighteen million dollars

7:22

over the last seven years. And

7:24

that's at at least eighteen million dollars

7:26

because there's also this compliance unit

7:28

within the the correction department that

7:30

it supplies some information. So their

7:32

employees within the correction department

7:34

that are also paid because of this monitorship.

7:37

So he's made his team has made eighteen million

7:39

dollars. He personally collects more

7:41

than four hundred thousand dollars a year

7:43

and works an average of twenty three

7:45

hours a week. So he makes more than the mayor and

7:47

works a part time job. And

7:49

what we found in this story, we we

7:51

published yesterday on Gothamists, and I I

7:53

spoke to Michael Hill on morning edition about it

7:55

too, is is that he he has

7:57

not had any success in turning

7:59

the system around.

8:02

And maybe, you know, he he

8:04

in his most recent report rated

8:07

The correction department has noncompliance in

8:10

most of the areas that he's been judging

8:12

them on over the last several years. But

8:14

yesterday in court, when it came time

8:16

for the judge to say, okay, the monitor's not

8:18

enough. We need something stronger. We need

8:20

a receiver. We need somebody to take it

8:22

over. She listened to

8:24

arguments from the city, from the correction

8:27

commissioner, Lewis Molina, that he just got

8:29

here in January, and that

8:31

there were small signs, like

8:34

violence going down in one particular

8:36

pallet rikers, like the

8:38

hiring of twenty eight new

8:40

civilian leaders because there's been

8:42

issue with lack of management

8:44

and not having leaders from

8:46

outside the department. They've too many who

8:48

come up through the ranks. That's a long been

8:50

a criticism. So, you

8:52

know, this new hiring of leaders,

8:54

this new correction commissioner

8:56

who the judge seems quite

8:58

impressed by, she indicated

9:00

that that is a show

9:02

signs of a glimmer of hope and that

9:04

a receiver is an absolutely,

9:06

you know, an extraordinary intervention,

9:09

and that's not something she's going

9:11

to entertain at this time.

9:13

I mean, there was There was a family

9:15

in the courtroom yesterday, federal

9:17

court who just lost their

9:19

one of their loved ones at Rykers through

9:21

an apparent suicide just

9:24

weeks ago, and they sat in the front

9:26

row, and she wished the judge

9:28

judge Swain wished that family

9:30

her condolences and she said

9:32

she she hopes that other families don't have

9:34

to go through the same thing. But Brian,

9:36

there have been eighteen deaths this year,

9:38

mostly because of drugs that

9:40

are getting into the facility somehow, most

9:43

drugs and suicide. And the suicides

9:45

happen when when often there aren't

9:47

officers available or

9:49

doing the work that they're supposed to do to

9:51

to check on people and to

9:53

make their rounds. So there's

9:55

an extraordinary spike in

9:58

deaths that bore the

9:59

board of correction oversight body that

10:02

advocates link directly to

10:04

problems with management and running the facility.

10:06

Mhmm. But that

10:08

connection and the need to do something more

10:10

aggressive about it was

10:12

not made yesterday in court. We're getting

10:14

an interesting looking call,

10:16

not about Ricus Island per

10:18

se, But Jonathan, in

10:20

Macintosh County, Georgia, I

10:22

think is calling to say that he had his first

10:25

experience being put in jail

10:27

last night. Jonathan, you're on

10:29

WNYC. Hello from New York.

10:32

Hey, Brian. Hello

10:34

from McEntice County, Georgia.

10:38

How'd you find our show? And what story do

10:40

you want to tell us? W

10:42

WNYC is probably one

10:45

of if not the best NPR station

10:47

that exists in this country. I

10:49

listened to KPGC

10:51

out of LA, KQED,

10:54

but WRC, and your show in

10:56

particular is I mean,

10:58

it's the best and

11:01

everyone around the nation should know about it.

11:03

That's

11:03

very kind. What happened to you? What

11:06

I wanted to about is that when

11:08

I'm realizing as in

11:11

my adult life a lifelong supporter

11:13

of prison reform and rehabilitation

11:15

and not just penalization, it's

11:18

easy to talk about statistics and

11:20

it's easy as tough as it

11:22

is to hear about

11:25

conditions and experiences from

11:27

other people within the

11:30

prison system and going to jail. I

11:33

didn't really understand it. So I went in

11:35

last night, I would like to say that

11:37

there is no doubt in my mind

11:39

that the whole system is set up to

11:41

make it incredibly uncomfortable, including for the

11:43

staff. And it's not a surprise that

11:45

there's staff at Ryker's who is just not showing

11:47

up to work. And it's even less of

11:49

a surprise there are people who are being

11:51

neglected intentionally so

11:53

that they do suffer,

11:56

I mean, the worst experience including

11:59

death.

11:59

And

12:02

it's

12:02

just like you don't know until actually

12:04

in there I don't mean to sound naive. It

12:07

did happen to be the first You wanna

12:09

describe it a little bit? You don't have to tell

12:11

us what you've got

12:13

in for. if you don't want. But

12:15

but there's there was something about the

12:17

experience that obviously was

12:19

surprising to you even if

12:21

somebody who who says you were

12:23

already interested in jail and prison

12:25

reform? What was it? The

12:27

biggest that I experienced

12:29

was that from the get go, from

12:31

the arrest. there

12:32

was seemingly intentionally

12:33

provided

12:36

misinformation, including

12:38

about my personal rights during

12:41

the arrest? And then upon

12:43

getting processed at

12:45

the jail, anything from

12:48

the the

12:50

proper address and telephone number

12:52

of the tow the

12:54

tow truck company that had my car do

12:57

just the information

13:00

about how to make phone

13:02

calls. I mean, there was

13:04

like a lot of information that easily could

13:06

have been explained the

13:09

upfront as well as

13:11

throughout the experience, but like

13:13

just wasn't. And it

13:15

it it made it

13:17

so that I was put in a position to

13:21

navigate basically like the social ins

13:23

and outs of being incarcerated

13:26

in a cell trying to

13:29

ask people information and and

13:31

as we all know from DV, you

13:33

don't want to ask too many questions. You don't want to

13:35

reveal too much about yourself. You don't want to come off as

13:37

a week. all things are real in jail.

13:39

And there are people with white

13:41

supremacy tattoos and,

13:43

you know, yeah, it's real. You gotta deal

13:45

with that. And no one is there to help you

13:47

and the information

13:50

is such a huge

13:52

component about having to navigate

13:54

the entire experience

13:56

that, like,

13:58

They want to

13:59

keep you down. No windows, no

14:02

clocks.

14:02

And

14:03

I've never found myself in any

14:06

point of my life doing this, but I just wanted to

14:08

sleep get away. There's the only thing I can do

14:10

is just sleep. the

14:12

recent lighting overly

14:15

cold. I mean, it was like

14:17

it doesn't make sense. We're in Georgia. It's a little

14:19

bit cold down here, but It was ridiculously

14:22

cold in there. No blankets. And

14:24

-- No blanket. -- ironically,

14:26

EV that's blaring advertising

14:28

from the outside world, It just

14:30

makes you feel incredibly frustrated, and I

14:32

can understand why someone would do with

14:34

that.

14:35

Jonathan, thank you very much for checking

14:38

in. We really appreciate

14:41

you sharing your experience

14:43

troubling as it was from

14:45

Macintosh County, Georgia. Macintosh

14:47

County, by the way, like southern

14:49

coastal Georgia near the

14:51

Florida border down there. And, no, I

14:53

didn't know that. My producer looked

14:55

it up. but this is WNYCFMHDNAM

14:59

New York, WNJTFM eighty eight

15:01

point one Trenton, WNJP eighty

15:03

eight point five, Sussex, WNJY

15:06

eighty nine point three NETCOME at WNJO ninety

15:09

point three Toms River. We are in

15:11

New York and New Jersey public radio and

15:13

live streaming at WNYC. dot

15:17

org. A few more minutes with our

15:19

public safety correspondent, Matt

15:21

Katz, as we talk about the

15:23

federal monitors or the federal judge's

15:25

decision yesterday not to put

15:27

Ryker's Island into federal

15:29

receivership, and we're

15:31

gonna get to the impeachment

15:33

attempt. I guess he was

15:35

impeached, actually, but may or

15:37

may not be removed from office,

15:40

impeaching the famous progressive prosecutor

15:42

in Philadelphia But Matt,

15:44

that was quite a call. And --

15:46

Yeah. -- although his experience was far

15:48

from Rikers Island, did you

15:50

hear echoes? Did you

15:52

hear connections? that you can make the

15:54

wrong reporting. Yeah. One one thing

15:56

that that people who aren't necessarily familiar with the

15:58

criminal justice system should remember

16:00

is you know, Ryker's Island, the gel

16:02

that this gentleman was at, their

16:04

their pre trial detention

16:06

centers. Like, the vast majority of the people

16:08

at Ryker's are only

16:10

or or just accused of crime. They

16:12

have not been convicted, and they're waiting

16:14

on their hearings. They're waiting on

16:16

this whole, like, justice system that's

16:18

happening outside of their jail cell

16:20

to to let them know when

16:22

it's not to come to court and to

16:25

maybe pursue a trial or get into

16:27

settlement talks and all the all the rest.

16:29

And where they stay is

16:31

not meant or, you know,

16:33

long term stays. And

16:36

yet, you know, they they don't have the

16:38

same access to to

16:40

programming that people in, let's say, prison

16:42

might who are sentenced to be in

16:45

there for five to ten years. They

16:47

don't have the same

16:49

access to know, when they're in

16:51

an intake facility at Rykers, we know

16:53

that they sometimes don't have access to

16:55

bathrooms. I mean, we published photos

16:57

a month or two ago of a

16:59

man who ended up defecating in his

17:02

pants because apparently he

17:04

didn't have access to a bathroom when

17:06

he first arrived at Rykers and ended up in

17:08

his intake facility for longer than he

17:10

was supposed to. they're

17:12

crowded in these intake facilities. The gels

17:14

can't necessarily handle all the people that come

17:16

in in one particular time. And the other thing

17:18

he said that's reflective. He was talking

17:20

about how it's you know, he

17:23

he he could see how someone might wanna

17:25

commit suicide. The the

17:27

correction officials at Rikers tell me, you

17:29

know, the that they're having in terms of

17:31

suicides and drug overdoses are

17:33

reflective of what's happening in gels across the

17:35

country. There have been other

17:37

gel systems that are also seeing

17:39

record high levels of

17:41

death. And so this is this is

17:43

clearly an American issue. And then the

17:45

final thing I'll say You know, correction

17:47

officers have an

17:49

incredibly difficult job. And

17:51

it's and and they they they

17:53

face a ton of abuse also

17:55

from detainees. And that

17:57

is also a national issue. And I'll

17:59

say since this monitor come back

18:01

came to Ryker's. I'll bring it back to Ryker's for

18:03

a moment. The number of

18:06

attacks on staff have

18:08

also increased. It's actually less

18:10

safe force for staffers at Rykers

18:12

than it used to be. Staffer almost twice

18:14

as likely to be assaulted now.

18:16

than they were back in twenty fifteen when

18:19

the the federal monitor first

18:21

got involved in this case. And

18:23

so issues of rikers are really

18:25

reflective of a larger national criminal

18:28

justice problems. And with this

18:30

federal monitor in place

18:32

who is supposed to make things better and all the ways that you've

18:34

documented it becoming

18:36

worse with the annual cost

18:39

of incarceration growing

18:42

to more than zero point five million

18:44

dollars per person per

18:46

year plus the eighteen million

18:48

dollars that New York City tax payers

18:50

have paid to the federal monitor.

18:52

You spoke with Finchiraldi, the former

18:55

commissioner of the Department of Corrections under

18:57

Mayor de Blasio and known as

18:59

a reformer, Here's what he had to say about the federal

19:01

monitorship. The question is,

19:03

does this cost the city a lot of

19:05

money beyond

19:05

just the monitor and his teens

19:08

salary? The answer is yes. And it's not and

19:10

it's not successful. I mean, it's it's not

19:12

so bad because money and it works, but

19:14

so far doesn't And

19:16

you reported in

19:19

a groundbreaking story that

19:21

you did on revealing images of

19:24

inmates locked and caged showers,

19:27

defecating in their pants due to lack of

19:29

bathroom access, other

19:31

hires. So how is it methods

19:33

such massive dysfunction could be

19:35

so expensive. You

19:37

know, part of the reason people say

19:39

is because of the nature of rikers

19:42

that it's this unwieldy facility that is

19:44

out of date, that is broken

19:47

down, it can take, you know, minutes

19:50

just for a group of officers to bring

19:52

somebody to the to the infirmary because

19:54

of the, you know,

19:57

the the extent of the place, the the mass of

19:59

the place, and

20:01

the the complicated ways to get around.

20:05

It's also there there's all this the the

20:07

there's the monitorship. Right? I mean, you have a

20:09

team of people that have sometimes been a dozen

20:11

large just for the compliance

20:14

unit to supply information to the

20:16

monitor. When Vinny Chiraldi, the former

20:18

correction commissioner just now was talking about

20:20

the cost of the monitorship beyond

20:22

the eighteen million dollars. It's

20:24

because of the salaries of those

20:26

employees. There is

20:28

just inefficency after inefficiency baked into

20:30

the system. And that's why there's this plan

20:32

to close records by twenty twenty

20:34

seven, which supposedly is going to save

20:36

the city a ton of money. The problem

20:39

though is we have almost six thousand people now

20:41

held at Rykers. And in order to close

20:43

Rykers and move people to these four

20:45

burrow based gels that they're currently

20:47

building, the population needs to be a lot

20:49

smaller, needs to be like thirty, three

20:51

hundred people. So

20:53

they're you know, the the

20:55

the cost of this criminal justice system,

20:57

the the the five

20:59

hundred thousand plus per detainee

21:02

is really reflective in just the the

21:04

the incarceration mentality to begin with. The

21:06

fact that we have, you

21:08

know, incarcerate people at

21:11

such a high extent and do so more

21:13

than most of the rest of the world. And

21:15

that's really what caused so much

21:17

money. and that's why people of of

21:19

all stripes are saying, you know, listen, if you

21:22

wanna fix these safety issues at Rykers, if

21:24

you wanna be able to close it down and move

21:26

people to more humane facilities, you got to

21:28

decarcerate. But that requires, you

21:30

know, a mayor who's onboard, an entire

21:32

justice system that's onboard, and

21:34

we're we're not really there yet.

21:37

Here's Miraslav, a retired New

21:39

York City police officer, calling

21:41

from Oster County. I'm Miraslav

21:43

here on WNYC. Hello.

21:45

Good morning.

21:46

Pleasure to talk to you. Yes.

21:48

So I was telling you a screener

21:51

that based on my experience as a

21:53

police officer in Manhattan Central

21:55

Booking, Brooklyn Central Booking, and I've seen some prisons

21:58

down in Texas also years

22:00

ago. I was given a

22:02

choice based on experience of being a

22:04

correction officer or being

22:06

homeless, I would take being

22:08

homeless. And I know that sounds

22:10

extreme. But being

22:13

locked in four walls, and

22:15

everyone hates each other. Everyone is

22:17

angry. Nobody

22:20

I mean, obviously, nobody wants to be there. Mhmm. It it's just

22:22

a whole parade place, and it's

22:24

they seem to be run on some eighteenth

22:27

run. nineteenth

22:29

century principles. Have you

22:31

seen

22:32

in your experience

22:34

any kind of

22:37

model prison where it's

22:39

done as well as it could

22:41

be done?

22:42

Not personally, but I

22:44

have watched other shows,

22:47

documentaries on the European system

22:49

and some progressive prisons

22:51

in this country. I believe there

22:53

is one in California where

22:56

they just have base

22:58

we redesigned the whole concept to give

23:01

people a little privacy but

23:03

safety. Mhmm. And, you

23:05

know, that one of your previous

23:07

callers, the gentleman that was just

23:09

incarcerated, said there's no

23:11

clocks. While depriving a

23:13

prisoner of time references. It's

23:15

just about a an

23:18

old school way of

23:20

psychological weight to humanize. Right. It was

23:22

our play. And

23:23

I see so many other things that go into

23:25

it and don't get me started on

23:27

private prisons because that's the

23:31

worst idea. Thank

23:33

you for that disturbing

23:35

but revealing portrait of what a former

23:37

police officer within

23:40

the system. Thanks. Matt, we just have a

23:42

few minutes left, and I do wanna switch

23:44

gears and ask you

23:46

briefly about the impeachment of

23:49

Philadelphia's district attorney,

23:51

Larry Krasner. Now for people who don't know the

23:53

name, he's sort of the model progressive prosecutor

23:57

Tiffany Kiban and Queen's

23:59

ran with him as a model, though she

24:01

lost him all into cats.

24:03

And, of course, the impeachment of him

24:05

in Philadelphia. I don't think they're gonna succeed

24:08

in removing him from office,

24:10

but impeachment is a step before

24:13

that. you know, it's reminiscent of course of how Lee

24:15

Zelvin just ran for governor of New

24:17

York saying that on day

24:19

one, he would start a process to

24:21

remove Manhattan DA Alvin

24:24

Bragg. So Larry Cresner is

24:26

this towering figure of

24:28

progressive prosecutorness. You're

24:30

from Philadelphia, Tell us briefly

24:32

who Larry Krasner is and

24:34

what just happened in the Pennsylvania legislature.

24:36

Sure. And it's totally related to what we're

24:38

talking about with Rykers because you

24:40

know, criminal justice advocates wanna make Rikers safer

24:42

by keeping people out of

24:44

jail, and that's what Larry

24:47

Krasner's sort of the model of a progressive

24:49

prosecutor in the country has tried to

24:51

do, you know, diverting some low

24:53

level offenders from gels

24:56

through alternative programs.

24:59

He's exonerated several wrongfully

25:02

convicted people. pulled them out of prison.

25:04

He's has programs for

25:06

alternatives to to cash bail. So he's

25:08

rolled back the the bail system

25:10

there. But, you know, in and he and he's been popular.

25:12

He's won two elections

25:15

in Philadelphia, which is a, obviously, a

25:17

very, very blue place. But

25:19

in since the pandemic has has

25:21

happened across the country, crime has risen

25:24

in certain areas, and that

25:26

has gotten the the ire of the

25:28

Republican controlled legislature in

25:30

Pennsylvania, and that's why they

25:32

impeached krasner.

25:34

And they did vote this week. The

25:36

Republicans a long party lines

25:38

voted this week, the the the

25:40

state House of Representatives there to

25:42

impeach Krasner and now it goes to the

25:44

senate, it would take two thirds

25:46

of a vote to remove them from

25:48

office. It looks like they

25:50

don't have that, especially they

25:52

just lost a seat in the last election. But

25:55

it is an absolute prism

25:57

in which to look at this divide

25:59

in the country, which was so

26:01

starkly clear in the last election between

26:03

people who believe that mass incarceration

26:06

is a stain on this country and we need to do

26:08

something about it. and those

26:10

who think that there's a rising crime

26:12

and we need to bring back,

26:14

you know, Bernie Keurig, Rejuliani,

26:16

Tufan crime policies. And

26:18

it's just become an a political

26:20

debate that's, you know, playing out

26:22

from the courtroom in in

26:24

lower Manhattan yesterday to the legislature

26:27

in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. In

26:29

New York, there's this

26:31

conversation about how there's no data

26:34

that the bail reform

26:36

that's the center of the debate in Albany,

26:39

has or has

26:41

not increased crime

26:43

in New York. Is there data

26:45

from Philadelphia that the

26:48

progressive policies of the DA, the

26:50

decarceration in particular, led

26:52

to increase and crime there, or

26:54

caused other public safety concerns,

26:56

or that it hasn't? There

26:58

there's data on both sides. Right? I mean,

27:01

Krasner there's criticism that

27:03

there's a decline in conviction rate

27:05

on Krasner's watch, but there's also

27:07

a declining arrest rate

27:09

by the police So there is not

27:12

definitive data on this,

27:14

and it is really hard. I know this as

27:16

a public safety reporter. it

27:18

is really hard to try to gauge

27:21

whether bowel reform, whether

27:23

more progressive policies when it comes to

27:25

criminal justice, how

27:27

that makes communities

27:29

safer or not in the whole.

27:32

If somebody doesn't end up going to

27:34

jail for a low level crime,

27:36

and then they don't commit

27:38

another crime and then they also

27:40

are able to stay in their

27:42

job and take care of their kids and

27:44

their kids off the street. It's in the long run. That is

27:47

a very complicated thing to

27:49

quantify. Mhmm. And so

27:51

there isn't easy statistic

27:53

to say that one side is right

27:55

or wrong here, and that's what makes

27:57

this so ripe for really

27:59

political manipulation, which is what we saw in the last

28:02

election. WMIC public safety

28:04

correspondent Matt Katz,

28:06

and I recommend that everybody go to Gothamist

28:09

and read Matt's article on what has

28:11

happened to Ryker's Island since

28:14

the Federal Monitor was appointed a

28:16

few years ago. Matt, thanks for coming on

28:18

the show. Appreciate that, Brian. Thank you.