0:00

The charity of Focused is Prince Edward

0:02

Island Island Network and that is a

0:04

is a that is helping those in

0:06

the Prince Edward the and surrounding areas areas

0:08

who are are members of the transgender

0:10

community and those that love and care

0:12

about them, which care be honest should

0:15

be all of us, right? should be,

0:17

provide advocacy support and education for

0:19

this community for do wonderful work.

0:21

and do you can find out

0:23

more about them at out more about them

0:25

at PEITN.com. They are a charitable non-profit.

0:28

And that is why we choose to

0:30

feature them here on the show for

0:32

this month. And now enjoy my interview with

0:34

Amity Cooper. them

0:37

here on the

0:40

show for this

0:43

month. And

0:45

now enjoy

0:48

my everybody,

0:50

everybody out there, everybody listening, everybody in

0:52

the world, even if you're not

0:54

listening, glad to have you. I

0:56

am am your host again again our

0:58

for our discussion of culture and culture.

1:00

an this is going to be

1:02

an interesting one to get into of

1:04

for a couple of reasons. If

1:07

you are someone who is a

1:09

therapist or a mental health clinician,

1:11

works in the healthcare field, or is

1:13

is just interested in those things,

1:15

then is is be kind of of right

1:17

up your alley. If you're not of

1:19

those things and not interested in mental

1:21

health. in mental I I you stick around

1:23

around That's kind of the theme here,

1:25

of what we talk about we the

1:27

time all the gonna assume you fall

1:29

into one of those camps. We're gonna

1:31

be talking a little bit about

1:33

how mental health care is delivered care is

1:36

delivered in the private practice realm and

1:38

the accessibility of care and the

1:40

availability of mental health therapy is a

1:42

passion of mine and something that

1:44

I'm always trying to figure out of

1:46

how to make that more accessible

1:48

and more available. available to people to get

1:50

people in touch with those that are

1:52

talented with helping them. And them. my guest

1:54

today is going to help us to

1:56

talk about that and other aspects of

1:59

therapy. of therapy. I'm grateful. to be joined by

2:01

Amity Cooper, who is very experienced

2:03

both in the mental health field

2:05

but also in entrepreneurial endeavors, job

2:08

coaching, and basically building up businesses

2:10

and getting into some of the

2:12

like modern ways of doing that

2:14

as applies to mental health counseling.

2:17

You have started the company Clinical

2:19

Career Collective, which is into that

2:21

as well and helps with that.

2:23

So Amity, welcome to the Broken

2:26

Brain. Hey, thank you so much

2:28

for having me. I'm really looking

2:30

forward to our conversation and to

2:32

see where it goes. because these

2:35

conversations can go all over the

2:37

place. Exactly. And we get excited

2:39

and I get excited talking about

2:41

mental health and the industry at

2:44

large. So I'm looking forward to

2:46

it. Absolutely. It's a fascinating thing

2:48

of how do we make this

2:50

happen, especially with all the talk

2:53

about accessibility of care and in

2:55

the way people often don't have

2:57

access to it or don't know

3:00

how to get access to it

3:02

or how to deliver it if

3:04

you're on the other side of

3:06

it too. So I'm excited to

3:09

hear some of those things. Tell

3:11

everybody a little bit about your

3:13

background. How did you get into

3:15

the different specialties you have and

3:18

into mental health in general? Yeah,

3:20

so I it was a it

3:22

was a circuitous path I would

3:24

say for the last 20 years

3:27

or so I have been in

3:29

the private sector I had been

3:31

and I am still an entrepreneur

3:33

with many many ideas perculating but

3:36

I have a background that's pretty

3:38

varied. I started out with a

3:40

master's degree in conflict resolution and

3:42

then I entered into I started

3:45

out in fashion actually I jumped

3:47

right from conflict into fashion and

3:49

maybe they're related. That's a people

3:51

have strong feelings about fashion. I've

3:54

seen that Devil wears Prada movie.

3:56

Yeah we can really dig into

3:58

that. So. So anyway, I spent

4:00

about 15 years sort of building,

4:03

creating, crafting different concepts and bringing

4:05

them to market. from a wide

4:07

variety of industries. So I started

4:09

out in fashion and then I

4:12

ended up and finished off my

4:14

last business, which was chocolate. And

4:16

that was very tasty and very

4:18

fun, but I really learned the

4:21

nuts and bolts of how to

4:23

establish a business. I learned the

4:25

biology, the foundation of what business

4:27

is specifically in manufacturing. So producing

4:30

a widget and taking it all

4:32

the way to market. So that

4:34

was a great ride until it

4:36

wasn't and I realized that I

4:39

really have been so focused on

4:41

external outcomes. I was so concerned

4:43

about making a product that people

4:45

would buy and that would consume

4:48

and it just it got to

4:50

be overwhelming and I realized I

4:52

wanted to be more internally driven.

4:54

I had always loved people and

4:56

obviously that sort of extended to

4:59

my love of working with people

5:01

in very heated and vulnerable moments

5:03

and finding a way to get

5:05

to resolution. And so I realized

5:08

that I wanted to go back

5:10

and get a degree. in mental

5:12

health counseling, which is what I

5:14

did. And so I've been in

5:17

private practice for the last six

5:19

years, and I really found my

5:21

sweet spot in working with other

5:23

individuals and practitioners who are looking

5:26

to launch their own businesses and

5:28

to have more impact in the

5:30

world. Right. It's very interesting to

5:32

get you know, you know, excuse

5:35

me. I had a boss that

5:37

actually had a degree in conflict

5:39

resolution too. And so you're the

5:41

second. person I've known that that

5:44

has had one so that's very

5:46

interesting it was he was going

5:48

through it while I was working

5:50

with him he he was always

5:53

very proud because it came from

5:55

a university in California and they

5:57

had the governor's signature on it

5:59

and it was at the time

6:02

Arnold Schwarzenegger so he was he

6:04

would oh he'd tell anybody who

6:06

he was talking to about it

6:08

like hey the Terminator signed my

6:10

thing which which was you know

6:13

kind of cool but it was

6:15

fascinating as somebody who at the

6:17

time I was going through my

6:19

masters of psychology and counseling some

6:22

of the crossovers that you have

6:24

there of just human nature so

6:26

that's interesting that let you tell

6:28

you. Yeah, you know, if you

6:31

were, all of us can sort

6:33

of look back and reflect on

6:35

the doors that we walk through

6:37

or the choices that we've made

6:40

in our careers and our lives.

6:42

And it's really interesting. I can

6:44

see some clear ways in which

6:46

like, you know, one step led

6:49

to the next. I can explain

6:51

the fashion of chocolate. That I'm

6:53

unclear about. But, but, but, um,

6:55

But in regards to really feeling

6:58

comfortable and close with people, being

7:00

intimate, being need and knee with

7:02

somebody, and feeling this really innate

7:04

sense of justice and working towards.

7:07

commonality, working towards purpose, I think

7:09

really aligns with my choices, my

7:11

life career choices, and ending up

7:13

eventually in the mental health space.

7:15

Interesting to see. And also then

7:18

working with the clients and then

7:20

working with other counselors as well.

7:22

That's cool. In my role doing

7:24

the podcasting, I get to meet

7:27

a lot of people in mental

7:29

health and talk with them in

7:31

that way, and that's always fascinating

7:33

to me. Especially in private practice

7:36

because you don't necessarily, I mean

7:38

I've always been lucky to have

7:40

a few people down the hall

7:42

so to speak in buildings where

7:45

I've rented who I know that

7:47

are counselors and stuff. But really

7:49

you don't have the experience you

7:51

might have in large agency of

7:54

like oh we're having staffing meetings

7:56

and we're all up kind of

7:58

in each other's business here and

8:00

there and we know and get

8:03

to talk about it and hear

8:05

ideas and things. So it's an

8:07

interesting opportunity to get to talk

8:09

to other, other counselors and therapists,

8:12

you know, as well. Yeah, I

8:14

brought them into the into the

8:16

counseling space, right? It's fascinating. It's

8:18

fascinating. But I think we all

8:20

have this, you know, any drive

8:23

to serve and to be purposeful.

8:25

I think we're really, as a

8:27

collective, we're, we're. caring bunch of

8:29

people. We really want to serve.

8:32

We do, we work in service

8:34

for others. And I think that

8:36

is the grounding force. That is

8:38

the foundation that's the cornerstone of

8:41

how we show up in the

8:43

world. So it's a wonderful feel

8:45

to be in. And I know

8:47

I'm preaching to the choir here,

8:50

but yeah, I think it kind

8:52

of leads into this discussion of

8:54

why so many people. why we're

8:56

lacking over a million clinicians out

8:59

there. I mean, it is a

9:01

burgeoning field today, and yet we're

9:03

struggling to train up clinicians. We're

9:05

struggling to train these individuals to

9:08

go out and to help more,

9:10

and we're in desperate need of

9:12

us. So it's a really interesting

9:14

place to be in town. And

9:17

also, and this is probably a

9:19

year or... bit ago, I had

9:21

Dr. Tammy Chang, who's an expert

9:23

in burnout, talking about the health

9:25

care field in general, and you

9:28

take something that, and even, you

9:30

know, in the counseling section, like

9:32

you say, we don't have enough

9:34

coming in, and we have too

9:37

many sometimes going out, people suffer

9:39

the burnout factor as well, and

9:41

with it being potentially, and many

9:43

times such a good field to

9:46

be in. Do you have any

9:48

theories or ideas about some of

9:50

those problems of like too many

9:52

out too few in? Yeah, you

9:55

know, I have sort of contemplated

9:57

this a bit. I think on

10:00

a a macro level. our

10:03

our institutions. change. I

10:06

think that we are to change.

10:08

I think that we

10:10

are working off of

10:12

maybe an outdated paradigm

10:15

of service. I think that support.

10:17

I think that like

10:19

many other bureaucratic systems, you

10:21

know, you can get

10:23

buried in the weeds of

10:26

credentialing and and

10:28

preparation and the

10:30

reality is... is And

10:32

this is truly a

10:35

personal opinion here, but here

10:37

but I We know know from

10:39

and data that and

10:41

data is peer support

10:44

and with extremely effective. we with just

10:46

a little training, other we actually

10:48

can guide a lot of

10:50

other people forward and be supportive

10:52

where we need it most,

10:54

like on the ground. if And

10:56

I think if a were to

10:59

make a comparison, and I might

11:01

kind of trail off here,

11:03

but you know, if you listen to this show, I

11:05

can to this show I can

11:07

only assume tangential thinking, you else they

11:09

wouldn't be listening to me. be listening

11:12

to me. the very fact that you

11:14

that, you and I both have gone

11:16

through gone through master's level

11:18

training which on a minimum takes about three

11:20

years to to to hack through, And

11:22

then you And then you enter

11:24

the field and then you

11:26

have to do another three, four

11:28

to three, four years of

11:30

credentialing and training and sitting

11:32

under somebody to get this

11:34

license to sit with somebody.

11:36

it's a can have, a it's

11:38

a mismatch, it's a misalignment,

11:40

yet we have all of

11:42

these other certifications and support

11:44

services. just just getting people out

11:46

into the the field faster. and

11:49

I think it's a hindrance.

11:51

think I a burden. a

11:53

It's a financial burden for

11:55

us, for think, and our

11:57

institutions sort of pigeon us

11:59

into doing doing. community mental health

12:01

and many of us I think

12:03

upwards of 50% of us who

12:05

go through these programs end up

12:08

wanting to be in private practice

12:10

and there just isn't the support

12:12

tools and the systems to sort

12:14

of launch us into that and

12:16

so I just I think there's

12:18

I think that's a huge gap

12:20

and a burden on us. Yeah

12:22

it's something I thought about a

12:24

lot too and then you see

12:27

I don't know there's a fine

12:29

line between maintaining maintaining sort of

12:31

like expectations for care and gatekeeping.

12:33

And I think every industry gets

12:35

more gatekeeping over time. And then

12:37

of course you get the pandemic

12:39

and you get some of the

12:41

crises we mentioned with lack of

12:43

care. And so then where do

12:46

we go to? So on the

12:48

one hand, you see, I've seen

12:50

some areas where they're making some

12:52

of the licensure testing optional, so

12:54

to speak, like as far as

12:56

passing the. tests of clinical knowledge,

12:58

but yet at the same time

13:00

we don't necessarily see a lot

13:02

of the burden of expense being

13:05

addressed as far as education goes.

13:07

And there's such a range, and

13:09

frankly when you get down to

13:11

the nuts and bolts of the

13:13

business of therapy, there's such a

13:15

range of how much people end

13:17

up earning and the earning potential

13:19

if you're working say in a

13:21

non-profit community mental health setting. I

13:24

know many people who are in

13:26

private practice who would have stayed

13:28

in that part of the industry

13:30

if they could make a living,

13:32

especially when you come out with

13:34

a somewhere between, you know, a

13:36

car payment to a house payment

13:38

level of, you know, whatever you're

13:41

going to call it, student loan

13:43

debt, however much that amount is

13:45

for people. And so you come

13:47

out with, you know, that and

13:49

a lot of experiences and many

13:51

of them, I mean, there are

13:53

programs still that require people to

13:55

do free, like if you have

13:57

a paid internship that doesn't count

14:00

for your, your pre-graduate hours. And

14:02

so some of this old medical

14:04

school model without, and you can

14:06

do okay in the field, right?

14:08

And that's where people gravitate to

14:10

private. But even in running, you

14:12

know, it's not always the mindset

14:14

and the personality to feel good

14:16

about charging a bunch, if that

14:19

makes sense. It doesn't match up

14:21

between, like we feel like money

14:23

should not be an issue, okay?

14:25

It feels icky to be benefiting

14:27

financially from somebody's discomfort or disease.

14:29

And it's never, we're a bunch

14:31

that really just hasn't really reconciled

14:33

that or come to terms with

14:35

charging for these services. And yet,

14:38

as an industry and as a

14:40

group, we are some of the

14:42

most highly educated individuals on par

14:44

with MBAs and B, I mean,

14:46

we run the gamut, right? And

14:48

those industries. get paid for what

14:50

they're worth, and we somehow come

14:52

out of the gate being significantly

14:54

40, 50% underpaid for the level

14:57

of education that we have. It's

14:59

disastrous, and I don't, these are

15:01

the things that I would love

15:03

to correct, and it sort of

15:05

bring awareness to in this discussion

15:07

of providing quality health care and

15:09

accountability and support. So, anyway. And

15:11

it bumps into this, once again,

15:14

there's this concept of what kind

15:16

of connection do we have to

15:18

accessibility of care. And then unfortunately

15:20

the pressure falls upon the shoulders

15:22

a lot of times of the

15:24

professional. And I don't know about

15:26

you, but I think that having

15:28

so many people in private practice,

15:30

a lot of times that's where

15:33

once again we're managing. pricing and

15:35

how much do we do we

15:37

do some pro bono or how

15:39

do we give back or all

15:41

of that thing you know in

15:43

a in a more like human

15:45

need focused industry there are certain

15:47

aspects of the medical world where

15:49

you go and boy you know

15:52

that's just this is what it

15:54

costs and that's just how it

15:56

is. And then again, but you

15:58

do find the same thing, people

16:00

who are privately and they're doing

16:02

everything including, they're the one looking,

16:04

the patient in the eye and

16:06

saying, this is how much it's

16:08

going to cost. And you see

16:11

there's a pressure, natural pressure to

16:13

say, well, this person needs it.

16:15

And how am I going to

16:17

help them? But anyway, it just

16:19

kind of gets into that where

16:21

the burden becomes on the professional

16:23

to say, how do I deliver

16:25

this service? And am I doing

16:27

that in a way that I

16:30

can actually afford? if I'm just

16:32

kind of busting my ass working

16:34

a whole bunch of hours and

16:36

then I go out of business

16:38

or can't make a living then

16:40

it's also not helping people in

16:42

the long run either because then

16:44

we're bleeding people and so and

16:47

not to make it you know

16:49

it's interesting how even just getting

16:51

lost in the weeds of discussing

16:53

money feels icky too doesn't that

16:55

kind of right there's this feeling

16:57

of like boy you know to

16:59

even talk about that it was

17:01

just alien right to us and

17:03

that kind of But you know

17:06

what's so ironic or I mean

17:08

is it is the fact of

17:10

life is that not only are

17:12

we questioning our value, what to

17:14

charge, how we make a difference

17:16

in the world, how do we

17:18

show up in our careers, right?

17:20

These are the very same issues

17:22

that our clients are reflecting to

17:25

us and they're coming to us

17:27

for guidance. How do we how

17:29

do we get? How do we

17:31

ask for a raise? How do

17:33

we ask for a promotion? How

17:35

do we do all of these

17:37

things like money and psychology and

17:39

worth are all wrapped up together?

17:41

And so we're trying to work

17:44

it out together. You know, it's

17:46

not separate. It's a life issue.

17:48

It's a human condition issue. And

17:50

there's a real. When I worked

17:52

in community mental health, that just

17:54

wasn't even a conversation. I knew

17:56

people who'd switch from the business

17:58

world to work, say, oh, here's

18:00

a, you know, community mental health

18:03

or a mental health clinic. And

18:05

just the concept of negotiating a

18:07

starting salary was thought of as

18:09

almost like, how dare you? Like

18:11

this inherent vow of poverty, which

18:13

actually makes it difficult to run

18:15

some of those agencies. And especially

18:17

when, I'm curious, your thoughts, even

18:20

just socially or within the mental

18:22

health world, the role that the

18:24

either small clinics, small business, or

18:26

self-employed private practitioners play in the

18:28

delivery of mental health, I find

18:30

that many times. that is a

18:32

preference people have because you can

18:34

seek out someone. Just the role

18:36

that the private practitioner plays in

18:39

mental health delivery is I feel

18:41

like very core to accessibility of

18:43

care for people is that that's

18:45

where a lot of times people

18:47

will tend to go if they

18:49

possibly can. And how are your

18:51

thoughts about that of the role

18:53

that plays? I think that's very

18:55

true. It's a... personal business. It

18:58

is an intimate selection. We don't

19:00

want to just go to anybody.

19:02

We want to go to that.

19:04

We want to go to somebody.

19:06

We want to feel like our

19:08

therapist gets us, sees us, reflects

19:10

back to us, some attitude or

19:12

way about us. So of course,

19:14

I think the tendency is you

19:17

want to be seen and treated.

19:19

individually. And so there the the

19:21

if we can afford high quality

19:23

care, we kind of feel that

19:25

we're going to receive that from

19:27

a private clinician and that the

19:29

mental health community mental health space

19:31

is really for those that are

19:33

lacking access. And would you agree?

19:36

I mean, it's Would you agree

19:38

to that? Yes. No, very much

19:40

so. I think that it's seen

19:42

that way. And having worked in

19:44

the nonprofit sector in community and

19:46

mental health care, I think that

19:48

inherent to that system, there are

19:50

many really good clinicians I know

19:53

that were. there but because

19:55

of the way

19:57

kind of the

19:59

healthcare system everything

20:01

works most people

20:03

I found that

20:05

that I found The biggest

20:07

population of clinicians there were

20:09

really good were really eventually

20:11

left. too, because to again,

20:14

kind of like, well, I make

20:16

a like well I I have to

20:18

pay about I have to pay exactly things and

20:20

then also that that the freedom from

20:22

a system that is really burdened

20:24

with a ton. with a

20:26

ton of I mean the places where

20:28

I've worked increasingly of some, you

20:30

know, outside agencies and sometimes

20:33

to qualify for Medicaid funding

20:35

and things. and things. managed health care

20:37

healthcare requirements to to where place I place

20:39

I worked was essentially time I

20:41

left. if we were if we were doing our

20:43

job the way it was lined out, we

20:45

were basically doing case management. And what I mean by

20:47

mean by that difference for those who may

20:49

not have a definition of that in your

20:51

head, it's like head. down and saying, what are

20:53

all your goals? Let's do those on are all

20:55

We're going to rate all your goals. And

20:57

how did they go this week? And did

20:59

you do this? And did you practically do

21:01

this? And did you do? And by go

21:03

the session. And And then every 90 days, we

21:06

retouch these goals and we do this and

21:08

we do that. And the delivery of the

21:10

therapies And did you do this? those who are And by then,

21:12

those who are into actual therapy then every

21:14

even some of the new research things and

21:16

we do. And once again, no shade. And

21:18

if anybody out there is in community in

21:20

health care that's federally and state care

21:23

you're able to do these things better. and

21:25

My hat's off to you, but these things better,

21:27

my hat's off to you, but yeah, things like EMDR or

21:30

IFS or some of the some of the good

21:32

trauma techniques that are coming out. out, It's

21:34

stymied by the fact that it's like,

21:36

yeah, but we need to see to see.

21:38

of this happening this How do you

21:40

do eight to 10 rounds of EMDR

21:42

and evaluate how that's going and

21:44

you're, know, even DBT was

21:46

very hard to deliver in

21:49

some ways, which is a

21:51

very some ways, which is a very behavioral, right?

21:53

Yeah, So you got bouncing around a around

21:55

a little bit, big population of

21:57

good people that are leaving, that are

21:59

people that. And then the other was

22:01

basically people who for whatever reason,

22:04

not necessarily their skills, just didn't

22:06

have other options, you know. And

22:08

then you had a sliver of

22:11

really good people who stayed on

22:13

purpose because just their situation allowed

22:16

it. you know, another spouse was

22:18

supported, whatever it is, you know

22:20

what I mean? It's like, you

22:23

know, the sliver of people that

22:25

are like, I like this, I'm

22:27

staying here on purpose, and I'm

22:30

good, and then the others that

22:32

didn't have as many options or

22:34

more risk of burnout, and then

22:37

the others are gone in a

22:39

couple years. So that's just my

22:42

observation. I'd love, I welcome people's

22:44

feedback on that, of the ilk.

22:46

It's about... talking about how mental

22:49

health care is. And there's different

22:51

levels in which you can receive

22:53

this care. And I think what

22:56

we learned and what we're experiencing

22:58

now is that the pandemic brought

23:01

to light all of these incredible

23:03

opportunities of changing the dance between

23:05

receiving mental health care and. and

23:08

accessing mental health care and that

23:10

technology has actually been a huge

23:12

disruptor to our industry. I mean,

23:15

we were so used to this

23:17

traditional model of being physically need

23:19

and need with somebody and now

23:22

we can be screen to screen.

23:24

It is incredible. The fact that

23:27

we can touch a few where

23:29

we were only limited by our

23:31

time and dollars to see a

23:34

few people in our practices or

23:36

in our agencies to now where

23:38

we can serve thousands of people

23:41

by incorporating and utilizing all of

23:43

these therapeutic tools available to us

23:46

today. It's totally changing our industry.

23:48

It's fun and it's fascinating and

23:50

There's a lot of opportunity and

23:53

it's not just maintenance care, it's

23:55

growth care. And I think it's

23:57

really, really changing and transforming our

24:00

industry. It's interesting. You see how

24:02

it drives even legislation or policy

24:04

making. I mean, for those who

24:07

don't know during, you know, when

24:09

you have distance. telehealth as they

24:12

you know technically call it like

24:14

when you're delivering through an online

24:16

platform or whatever therapy it's supposed

24:19

it's always been you know you

24:21

are working with a clinician who

24:23

is licensed in the state where

24:26

you live so it doesn't matter

24:28

if they're licensed somewhere else if

24:31

it's not a state that you

24:33

live in their practice they could

24:35

be practicing therapy without a license,

24:38

right? If you're in, you know,

24:40

Ohio and they're in, you know,

24:42

wet or Vermont or something, I

24:45

don't know. But yeah. Those are,

24:47

I just wanted to show off

24:50

that I could name two United

24:52

States in a row. But so

24:54

because of the accessibility, and if

24:57

you're able to go online and

24:59

say, okay, I can find somebody

25:01

with a specialty, maybe an insurance

25:04

situation, maybe a pricing, whatever it

25:06

is that matches my needs, and

25:08

if I have the whole within

25:11

the United States, I should add

25:13

for those of you that are

25:16

out there, I don't know the

25:18

rules as well in some of

25:20

the other countries, but they've actually

25:23

started to create state to state

25:25

compacts and even... Where it's easier

25:27

not just to get licensed somewhere

25:30

else because you can't really afford

25:32

to get licensed in every state

25:35

if someone like, oh, someone in

25:37

Ohio, okay, I'll just try to,

25:39

you know, pay my, my licensure

25:42

dues every year there. But moving

25:44

more and more towards a national

25:46

compact where people can be nationally

25:49

licensed, right? And it empowers the

25:51

individual. You're not just... It empowers

25:53

the individual to make a choice

25:56

about what is going to be

25:58

the best form of care, what

26:01

and who is going to be

26:03

the best therapist. for themselves. You're

26:05

not going to be automatically relegated

26:08

to your local community mental health

26:10

support center. Not saying that that

26:12

is wrong or bad or poor

26:15

treatment, but it's this empowerment of

26:17

seeking out your own mental health.

26:20

tools and services that work for

26:22

you. It's an incredible game changer

26:24

for all of us. And it

26:27

really leads back into all of

26:29

this potential for us as clinicians

26:31

and business owners to really expand

26:34

our practices and ways that we

26:36

never imagine before. And this is

26:38

where I feel like our industry

26:41

and again it sort of circles

26:43

back to the original opening of

26:46

our conversation. But what does that

26:48

look like for us as an

26:50

industry? And our training institutions, they're

26:53

lagging behind in providing this training

26:55

and support and tools to actually

26:57

deliver the kinds of interventions. that

27:00

most people are using and accessing

27:02

every day. So, you know, it's

27:05

imperative that we keep having this

27:07

conversation and asking for more from

27:09

our legislative bodies and our associations

27:12

to help support us on this

27:14

endeavor so we can serve more

27:16

people. Carewide. It's really cool. And

27:19

then you can also find a

27:21

lot of resources that have to

27:23

do with psycho education, that are

27:26

not, no problem, they're crossing, you

27:28

know, whatever boundaries and things like

27:31

that, states and stuff, but also

27:33

that are great supplemental. kinds of

27:35

things. People can offer courses online

27:38

and you know I've been building

27:40

this DBT self-study course from through

27:42

my website and just stuff like

27:45

that you know that people can

27:47

do and I've had people come

27:50

on the show who are using

27:52

one person talked about how he's

27:54

setting up some different technologies through

27:57

his website that will actually deliver

27:59

some actual sort of like instruments

28:01

that you might have to actually

28:04

go into an office and More

28:06

than just an internet research for

28:08

your own kind of information of

28:11

your you know entering for diagnostic

28:13

indicators and things Oh, yeah Basically

28:16

beefed up from just taking a

28:18

you know something on Google or

28:20

whatever Not not saying it's the

28:23

same as meeting with a psychologist

28:25

and doing a full battery of

28:27

tests, but here's something that is

28:30

accessible that then can lead to

28:32

supplemental mental health tools that you

28:35

bring into, hopefully therapy and things

28:37

like that. So yeah, a lot

28:39

of care that's being delivered at

28:42

low, little or even no cost

28:44

sometimes. Yes, and I think the

28:46

sort of reinforce what you're saying

28:49

back to my initial example about

28:51

peer support. Okay, so we have

28:53

to date and growing, we have

28:56

about 20,000 different digital therapeutic apps

28:58

that are available on various platforms

29:01

around the world. I wouldn't have

29:03

thought it was that many. Right.

29:05

So what we saw in the

29:08

key to the moment of the

29:10

pandemic is that people were desperate

29:12

for access to reaching out. They

29:15

felt so isolated. We all saw

29:17

the anxiety. We all saw the

29:20

depression. We all saw the burnout

29:22

of the fear and everything. We're

29:24

lonely. And these apps, these chat

29:27

bots, have come in to offer

29:29

a hand and a rescue in

29:31

the exact moment of a person's

29:34

need. We can't do that individually,

29:36

but these apps are that bridge

29:38

for reaching out to somebody. And

29:41

they continue to be used. regularly

29:43

and we have found more and

29:46

more that there's validation and reliability

29:48

in these in these tools and

29:50

that provides agency and efficacy. for

29:53

individuals to go

29:55

out and seek

29:57

help. out and seek help.

30:00

an amazing tool

30:02

that I hope

30:05

we can continue

30:07

continue to apply our own practices.

30:09

So what I'm saying is I'm saying is

30:11

that there's three to four ways in

30:13

which all of this new technology

30:15

is going to be to be.

30:18

utilized in the oncoming five, seven

30:20

years, I would say. So first we

30:22

got our first taste of

30:24

using telehealth and Zoom having screen -to

30:26

-screen interactions and tele therapy, and

30:28

So video is going to

30:30

be a major resource for

30:32

all of us. for all Being

30:34

able to use digital therapeutics

30:37

like we're talking about these

30:39

apps that we can apply,

30:41

we can actually build out

30:43

apps for our practices. If

30:45

we want to apply apply We're

30:48

going to be using additional

30:50

coaching software tools. so you're providing,

30:52

after you have a session,

30:54

you're going to be going in

30:56

to be you're going to be

30:58

giving access to a portal for

31:00

your clients to follow up

31:02

with doing homework. You can use

31:04

these digital You apps for assessments.

31:06

apps for I mean, there is

31:08

research going on right now. Like

31:10

on can test the sound of

31:12

a person's voice to understand

31:14

if they're actually having a psychotic

31:16

break or they're depressing or they're depressed

31:18

or they're you know, it's

31:20

So fascinating how these

31:22

haptics, these these interactive, immersive

31:24

tools are coming into

31:26

play with our every

31:29

day. digital tools digital tools that

31:31

we're using. you see it, I mean, you

31:33

see it, um, going here, really

31:35

getting going here. about all of

31:37

the wearables that we have, about all

31:39

of the wearables that

31:41

we have. rings. Our thinking our

31:43

smart the Google rings. We're

31:46

thinking about the Google lenses,

31:48

the glasses. All of

31:50

these will be giving

31:52

us real -time feedback, biofeedback

31:54

to all of our operating

31:56

systems systems and externally. externally. And

31:59

of that. can be incorporated and

32:01

utilized by clinicians to get a

32:04

better feel, a better read on

32:06

their client's progress or challenges. And

32:08

it's all in real time. So

32:11

the last and best part, I

32:13

feel like, that's coming online is

32:15

the use of immersive technology, immersive

32:18

experiences, and that includes everything virtual.

32:20

So AR, VR. X, or any

32:23

of those things where you can

32:25

literally step in to an alternative

32:27

universe and you can practice what

32:30

you're learning. So this is perfect

32:32

for individuals who are struggling with

32:35

phobias by using exposure therapy to

32:37

practicing public speaking to working through

32:39

difficult conversations. You can orient yourself

32:42

in a different way and you

32:44

can practice life. skills, life building

32:47

skills, in the safety of your

32:49

own home. Let's say you have

32:51

clients that are therapy adverse. They

32:54

can't leave their homes. Slap on

32:56

and put on that VR device

32:59

and you're off to the races.

33:01

I mean, it changes. It's a

33:03

total change and changing the dance

33:06

of how we interact. and server

33:08

clients. That bridges then between some

33:11

of the disadvantages of just the

33:13

online and by the way I've

33:15

noticed that that's largely. dependent on

33:18

the person of course because I

33:20

have some clients now that I

33:23

have never actually had physically in

33:25

my office and some of them

33:27

you know they prefer that and

33:30

and do really well for various

33:32

reasons and yet there are some

33:35

who are just like boy I

33:37

just don't get something out of

33:39

it that I get if I'm

33:42

there and yet it's not like

33:44

they don't have some of the

33:47

same disadvantages sometimes as far as

33:49

travel and all that stuff interesting

33:51

so it sounds like what you're

33:54

saying is like I'm here now.

33:56

More. Yeah. And for better or

33:59

for worse, it depends on how

34:01

you look at it, your point

34:03

of view, but you know, you

34:06

as a clinician can create your

34:08

own programs, your own interventions. And

34:11

so you're the voice in the

34:13

client's head, good or for bad,

34:15

that can talk them through and

34:18

walk them through the exercises. It's

34:20

an amazing way to catapult progress.

34:23

in your practice and for your

34:25

clients because most people use utilized

34:27

therapy on average I think most

34:30

and you can verify this for

34:32

me in your own practice but

34:35

you know most clients want to

34:37

stick with you for an average

34:39

of five to six sessions and

34:42

then they want to move on

34:44

they really want to address like

34:47

the lowest hanging fruit the thing

34:49

that's really irritating them the most

34:51

and to spend years in therapy

34:54

and I and I'm a union

34:56

so I love analysis and I

34:59

could spend and I have spent

35:01

a decade in analysis but but

35:03

that's not for everybody that's a

35:06

that's a minority. demographic here. Most

35:08

people want to fix something that's

35:11

out of tune and move on

35:13

with their lives. So these tools

35:15

are a catalyst to really meeting

35:18

the client where they're at and

35:20

what their needs are in a

35:22

different way than has been available

35:25

up to today. It's

35:27

interesting and yeah, I forget that

35:29

sometimes because I tend I work

35:31

with a lot of heavy trauma

35:33

and addiction So I do tend

35:36

to work with people for a

35:38

little bit on the longer side

35:40

But yet I know but I

35:42

see a lot of those too.

35:44

It's kind of flipped for me,

35:46

but I forget that is what

35:48

I think the research shows is

35:50

most people are coming in for

35:52

a shorter amount of time and

35:54

so giving them a way to

35:56

supplement that but I will say

35:59

also I've noticed for people with

36:01

acute needs because even if people

36:03

have a need of saying boy

36:05

I could benefit from even I

36:07

mean I work with some people

36:09

who you know could use multiple

36:11

sessions, even in a week or

36:13

something, sometimes during some points. But

36:15

yet having something that that's just

36:17

not always doable. In fact, I

36:20

would say for most people are

36:22

in a situation where it's not

36:24

necessarily doable to do a huge

36:26

intensive amount of, you know, intensive

36:28

outpatient or multiple times a week,

36:30

because even if it's just the

36:32

cost, but oftentimes it's the time

36:34

also, but having some of the

36:36

tools you're saying of like. Instead

36:38

of just read this article or

36:41

do this assignment, it's kind of

36:43

like, you know, engage with this

36:45

thing that's ongoing, right? And here's

36:47

some different things that you can

36:49

use to supplement. And I think

36:51

we're really using those tools. I

36:53

used to think it was generational,

36:55

but it's so interesting through the

36:57

podcast. I've met. I mean traditionally

36:59

when I was coming up in

37:02

the field it seemed like a

37:04

lot of therapists seem to be

37:06

kind of let out in nature

37:08

as far as new tech goes

37:10

but some of the people embracing

37:12

it the most are actually some

37:14

of the older clinicians that I've

37:16

talked to that that's interesting yeah

37:18

so would you can you give

37:20

a sense of a profile of

37:23

who these people are what do

37:25

you what do you well as

37:27

far as I you know so

37:29

I guess what I guess what

37:31

I'm saying it crosses generational boundaries

37:33

a bit I think that this

37:35

is inherent to any industry, but

37:37

you have kind of these populations.

37:39

There's some research that indicates that

37:41

a lot of therapists, whatever they

37:44

learn within the first three to

37:46

five years of their practice, is

37:48

just as a professional, is what

37:50

they do forever, you know, basically.

37:52

And you see that a lot.

37:54

But then you get the people

37:56

that they value. And this might

37:58

be, this is not research, but

38:00

there's so many of us in

38:02

the field that of ADHD or

38:05

some related thing. So the craving

38:07

for novelty and the craving for,

38:09

you know, how can I, how

38:11

can I find a new way

38:13

that helps? And the people that

38:15

tend to embrace like when DBT

38:17

became big and it seemed to

38:19

help access two issues, boy, that

38:21

dates me. Axis 2, everybody out

38:23

there, a little deep cut for

38:26

you from the DSM-4. But how

38:28

long has it been since you

38:30

got rid of axes? Geez, it's

38:32

all, you know, that's sorry. Anyway,

38:34

multi-axle diagnosis, that can be, I'll

38:36

throw that into one of my

38:38

history. I do a weekly, yeah,

38:40

exactly. But how there was like

38:42

finally something that's like this really

38:44

seems to impact personality disorders. people

38:47

who really got into that and

38:49

not only said I hear DBT's

38:51

good period that's all I've studied

38:53

is that sentence but really got

38:55

in learning what it was and

38:57

how to implement it and then

38:59

you've got the EMDR and how

39:01

do people use that and and

39:03

now IFS is big in the

39:05

internal family systems people who tend

39:08

to embrace you know new the

39:10

novelty. Yeah. Things that are seeming

39:12

to work. And so I think

39:14

that personality type to me are

39:16

the ones that are like, oh,

39:18

how can I use that? How

39:20

can I put that on my

39:22

website? Because I already have one

39:24

because I'm already that kind of

39:26

person. Well, I think I think

39:29

probably in the last 10 years,

39:31

you have the e learning industry.

39:33

Okay, this this this idea that

39:35

we can go to the great

39:37

wide web and Find information. We

39:39

can research ourselves. It's self-directed learning.

39:41

It's here to stay. And how

39:43

do we apply all of this

39:45

information to ourselves and to our

39:47

practices? I think the curiosity is

39:49

there. I think and I think

39:52

exponential technologies and the research. in

39:54

exponential technologies has shown us a

39:56

path forward and it's sort of

39:58

we're not that isn't just a

40:00

personality work anymore or typology. I

40:02

think it's just innate like we

40:04

are I think as an industry

40:06

and maybe as a group we're

40:08

lifelong learners and now we have

40:10

all of these other ways in

40:13

which we can access and gain.

40:15

and learn and grow through these

40:17

platforms. I wanted to ask, this

40:19

is a little shift here. Those

40:21

people are practicing now, they're used

40:23

to, I feel like there used

40:25

to be, it's sort of like.

40:27

Oh, I don't know. You go

40:29

back far enough in time and

40:31

it was like, here's one or

40:34

two things. Are you a, you

40:36

know, into this aspect? Are you

40:38

more of an analyst? Are you

40:40

more of a behaviorist or whatever?

40:42

And then you get into just,

40:44

there's more and more differentiation and

40:46

there was a fascination with being

40:48

eclectic. I guess what I'm saying

40:50

is current trends when it comes

40:52

to specialization, if I'm setting up

40:55

a practice. Do I want to

40:57

pick one or two or, you

40:59

know, heavily specialized or, you know,

41:01

are there values to having more

41:03

of a jack-of-all-trades mixed bag interest

41:05

of different presenting problems? What, what

41:07

do you think about that? Yeah,

41:09

so, in my opinion, I feel

41:11

like we all need to niche

41:13

down. We all need to have...

41:16

a calling card, a shingle that

41:18

we can hang up and we

41:20

can stand on and behind that

41:22

says who we are because the

41:24

world, as I just said, even

41:26

though we have we have incredible

41:28

access to all sorts of information,

41:30

but really it's decision overwhelmed for

41:32

our brains for all of us.

41:34

And if we are a generalist,

41:37

today. We really are not a

41:39

specialist in anything and we can

41:41

do a little bit of this

41:43

and we can do a little

41:45

bit of that and that's fine.

41:47

We can have, we can look

41:49

to other parallel experiences in industries

41:51

or orientations that can inform us.

41:53

We need to have a wide

41:55

world view, but when it comes

41:58

to our practices, our clients... really

42:00

us. us to be

42:02

specific. They are coming to

42:04

us as an expert. an They

42:06

are relying on us to

42:08

be a few steps ahead.

42:10

ahead, maybe a few years ahead,

42:13

to give us guidance, us to

42:15

give them guidance, to provide

42:17

the route to follow, the and

42:19

you can't. And you do that

42:21

if you don't specialize,

42:23

if you don't say who

42:25

you are say why I'm

42:27

a clear match for

42:29

you, you. client. So yes, I I

42:31

think it's very important to

42:33

specialize. to specialize. Yeah, I I know that

42:35

I, I I don't know if it's it's

42:37

just personality. I always struggled with what

42:40

to say about that kind of thing.

42:42

And so it's, I don't know, it's

42:44

something I've gone through I've gone

42:46

through evolutions, rather, own career of trying

42:48

to find that trying to it's

42:50

hard to kind of settle on.

42:53

hard to kind of settle on things know,

42:55

that you do, that you do. I, remember

42:57

when I, when I, now I kind

42:59

of fall. fall. The way way I look

43:01

at it now is now people, you know,

43:03

my know, really addiction, is trauma. And

43:05

then, you know, related to that, I work

43:07

a lot with ADHD and bipolar a those

43:09

things. And, you know, that's kind of sub and

43:11

those things, But and you what I'm trying to say

43:14

is, and yet at the same time, I

43:16

don't turn people away if they do something

43:18

that I know I can help trying to someone

43:20

comes in yet at oh, same time, I don't turn people away

43:22

if they an expert, that I being

43:24

able to know and understand

43:26

the nuances and how these

43:29

other aspects of a person's

43:31

issue it be informed

43:33

and how how you can

43:35

serve best. You are are

43:37

the one deciding. who you want

43:39

you want to help and who

43:41

you want to serve. it's also, I

43:43

mean, it's mean, it's key. I mean,

43:45

you within the pretty much within the

43:48

first 10 minutes of meeting somebody can

43:50

you could help them or not and you

43:52

can't, you refer them out, right? right? Absolutely,

43:54

and this is is just an old

43:56

rule that I was told a

43:58

long time ago a mentor type

44:00

of person in my career that

44:02

I will, and I'll tell clients

44:05

this too, at the first session

44:07

I always like to ask them

44:09

their assessment of our connection, right?

44:11

Do you feel like we can

44:13

be a good team? Because frankly

44:15

that's actually more important than my

44:17

skill level based off research of

44:19

what makes therapy work is if

44:21

you feel that. And if you

44:23

don't feel that connection with the

44:26

therapist in like, basically it's like

44:28

three or four sessions, Max, if

44:30

you just don't feel that, you're

44:32

not likely to. And you should,

44:34

instead of just giving up on

44:36

therapy, you should probably mention that

44:38

to your counselor and to say,

44:40

hey, this isn't clicking. Do you

44:42

have any recommendations for me or,

44:45

you know, something like that? And

44:47

same as the counselor. Although, I've

44:49

talked with this with other counselors

44:51

that if you're feeling a disruption

44:53

or you're like, It's always good

44:55

to ask, am I helping? Are

44:57

you feeling like this is a

44:59

good match? And if most of

45:01

the time that clinicians ask that,

45:04

my experience, once again, just informally,

45:06

people that I know anecdotally, right,

45:08

is that the client says, oh,

45:10

well, yes, actually, and here's where,

45:12

you know what I mean. Sometimes

45:14

they might say, oh, yeah, I'd

45:16

like to focus more on this,

45:18

but I think if you're working

45:20

with an open relationship, hopefully. I

45:23

find at least I find mine

45:25

tell me if it's like hey

45:27

we haven't been focusing on this

45:29

as much I'd like to change

45:31

gears. I love that and and

45:33

I try to facilitate it you

45:35

know as much as possible. So

45:37

having that open communication I think

45:39

helps with that in addition to

45:42

this is what I work on

45:44

this is how we work together

45:46

that kind of thing. Yeah I

45:48

think that there's a few steps

45:50

even we're speaking of really of

45:52

like working with a client. in

45:54

session over time having that relationship

45:56

with them, but before they even

45:58

enter your room, before they ever

46:01

sit on your couch, there are,

46:03

they took a pass, they followed

46:05

a customer journey path that led

46:07

them to your door. And the

46:09

way they evaluate. and look at

46:11

all of the plethora of choices

46:13

available to them, which are thousands.

46:15

You know, we have, there's so

46:17

many ways in which you could

46:19

lose them before you get them,

46:22

that it's your duty as a

46:24

practice owner to make sure that

46:26

you're super clear about what client

46:28

you want to serve, who is

46:30

your ideal. client and that comes

46:32

with specialization and knowing yourself and

46:34

knowing where your sweet spot of

46:36

success is what your what your

46:38

zone of genius is and that

46:41

is where a lot of the

46:43

work that I do with other

46:45

practitioners who are looking to start

46:47

their own practices this is where

46:49

the work begins. It's getting really

46:51

clear on who you are as

46:53

a business owner as a clinician

46:55

and just a human being. Yeah,

46:57

we're seeing. So it's a nice

47:00

thing and the technology actually allows

47:02

for that too. I've had some

47:04

people. And this is mixed, by

47:06

the way, this is both probably

47:08

two-edged sword. But I've had people

47:10

who come to see me that

47:12

are like, oh, I've heard the

47:14

podcast, and it definitely lets them

47:16

know my style of how I'm

47:19

likely to work. Now, in the

47:21

podcast, I express a lot of

47:23

things that won't come up in

47:25

therapy. I mean, you know, I'm

47:27

pretty open about social issues and

47:29

things, you know, like that, that

47:31

may or may not be pertinent

47:33

to their therapy. episodes about the

47:35

queer community and things like that,

47:38

the pros and cons of support

47:40

and things. So at least, I

47:42

mean, there are having people who

47:44

are like, oh, I knew you

47:46

were safe. Do you know what

47:48

I mean? I knew I would

47:50

feel safe talking to you. And

47:52

with that, with a lot of

47:54

people having either podcasts or even

47:57

social media presence, once again, mixed

47:59

bag of what you hear, but

48:01

you get a feel for, here's

48:03

an Instagram channel where there's. a

48:05

therapist that talks about this and,

48:07

okay, I get a feel for

48:09

that kind of thing. So, and

48:11

whether it's written as well, people

48:13

with a sub stack or people

48:15

with some kind of a link

48:18

to, you know, all that kind

48:20

of stuff helps people to connect

48:22

to this feeling, which is, as

48:24

I said, When they do research

48:26

of what helps about therapy, the

48:28

only thing that is more important

48:30

than if you fill a good

48:32

teamwork connection with your counselor is

48:34

whether or not you even go.

48:37

Like once again, and that gets

48:39

into accessibility of care on the

48:41

serious side, but frankly, it's like,

48:43

yeah, duh, if I don't go

48:45

to therapy, I don't benefit from

48:47

it. But the second thing is

48:49

if I have a good teamwork,

48:51

that's more important than what they

48:53

do. So yeah, there's lots of

48:56

ways to, and I flip it

48:58

to say if you are the

49:00

therapist, right? You want to get

49:02

that out there and I like

49:04

how you said that. It's like

49:06

a duty to really present yourself

49:08

the way you work. And then

49:10

on the other hand, if you're

49:12

seeking somebody, it's like looking for

49:15

ways. I mean, I'm not saying

49:17

they have to have a podcast

49:19

or anything like that, but I'm

49:21

not trying to say that exactly,

49:23

but to say, how do they

49:25

present themselves? going to try to

49:27

do, right? There's going to be

49:29

researching you and investigating you and

49:31

this is, again, it circles back

49:34

to all of the different formats

49:36

in which we can build a

49:38

reputation. spread the love, say who

49:40

we are and what we're about.

49:42

They're researching us in ways that

49:44

we never imagined. So having a

49:46

digital landscape and a plan in

49:48

place that really is in alignment

49:50

with who you are and what

49:53

your vision, your mission, your mission,

49:55

and who you serve needs to

49:57

be really front and center and

49:59

it needs to be consistent across

50:01

all platforms. Because you can't hide

50:03

today. So and really you know

50:05

and that I think that that's

50:07

where we have what's always a

50:09

tricky balance of professionalism and personalism,

50:11

right, is a big thing of

50:14

saying how much, like I put

50:16

it, you know, there might be

50:18

people who don't want to see

50:20

me because of my, you know,

50:22

my support and ally ship or

50:24

whatever you want to call it

50:26

of certain populations that I'm pretty

50:28

open about. But also, they're not

50:30

going to benefit from working with

50:33

me the same way, because if

50:35

that's an obstacle for them. I'm

50:37

probably not a good match. Let

50:39

me put it that way. You

50:41

know what I'm saying? Yeah, it's

50:43

a poignant. And there's no, there's

50:45

no harm, no foul in that.

50:47

There's going to be somebody out

50:49

there for somebody, you know, but

50:52

it's true, but at least being,

50:54

and I think this would actually

50:56

warn another conversation talking about what

50:58

our digital persona is and how

51:00

do you set that up properly.

51:02

I think that is a. That

51:04

is, it's a great topic to

51:06

explore and to really think about

51:08

in today's world. That is, you

51:11

know what, that's a good, yeah,

51:13

see, we'll, depending on your availability,

51:15

and I actually would love to

51:17

have that, to go more into

51:19

that, that would be really, really

51:21

interesting, so that's teaser for those

51:23

out there, you're listening. Well, it's

51:25

been really fascinating to listen to

51:27

the... And to learn about your

51:30

philosophies and the way that you're

51:32

presenting this and just talking about

51:34

these trends in general, I think

51:36

it affects anybody. Well, as I

51:38

always say, if you wonder if

51:40

you or anyone else has psychological

51:42

health needs, well, yeah, we all

51:44

do. And there are any people

51:46

in direct need right now, of

51:49

course, yeah, just assume that there

51:51

are in your life, if it's

51:53

not you, then it's the person

51:55

sitting next to you. And so

51:57

it affects everybody, you know, just

51:59

like any other form of health

52:01

care. So really really appreciative. I

52:03

want to give you a chance

52:05

to tell people where to find

52:07

you and learn more about what

52:10

you do. I always like to

52:12

ask people to give a little

52:14

a little tip to people out

52:16

there. of a way that they

52:18

themselves feel attached to as far

52:20

as community give back. It could

52:22

be the name of a charity

52:24

that they love, nonprofit, or just

52:26

something that they do in their

52:29

day-to-day practice to try to help

52:31

people around them. It does not

52:33

need to be related to what

52:35

we're talking about, but you know,

52:37

it can be whatever you want.

52:39

Do you have any feel for

52:41

that of what you would tell

52:43

people as a given back or

52:45

pain at forward or whatever we

52:48

want to call it? Yeah. Well,

52:50

what comes to mind right at

52:52

the moment is I just, mental

52:54

health matters to everyone, it matters

52:56

to me, it matters to you,

52:58

and I think Nami. Is it

53:00

a great organization about education and

53:02

support and mental health awareness? So

53:04

I am a big proponent of

53:07

them. I also really love, there's

53:09

different apps that I can suggest,

53:11

thinking of saying, S-A-N-E,.org I believe.

53:13

It's a pure support access site.

53:15

So. Because we've been talking about

53:17

the difficulties of accessibility and affordability,

53:19

being able to spread out and

53:21

reach out to others in your

53:23

critical time of need is super

53:26

important to me and knowing that

53:28

there's somebody on the other line.

53:30

On the other end, available to

53:32

speak to you to help you

53:34

through difficult moments is there and

53:36

I think sane and Seven Cups

53:38

is also another great resource. They're

53:40

professional listeners. So I would definitely,

53:42

I think those three sort of

53:45

rank high for me right now.

53:47

Thank you. Thank you for sharing

53:49

that with everybody. Tell people where

53:51

they follow you and what's the

53:53

best way for them to get

53:55

involved or to know what you

53:57

are doing. Yeah, so there's three

53:59

ways in which you can. and

54:01

find me. The first one is

54:03

my namesake website. It's Amitycooper.com. And

54:06

that basically gives you an overview.

54:08

It's the kitchen sink of everything

54:10

that I do. And then if

54:12

you are interested in. leveling up

54:14

or teching up your practice and

54:16

you don't know anything about tech.

54:18

I run a seven-day boot camp

54:20

called Do This First that walks

54:22

you through the nuts and bolts

54:25

and the biology of business, how

54:27

to set up your digital practice,

54:29

and how to incorporate all these

54:31

new technologies into your practice so

54:33

that you can run more efficiently

54:35

and with ease. So that course

54:37

is at. Clinical Career Collective.com and

54:39

then if you are looking for

54:41

any sort of professional career transition

54:44

coaching, you can find me at

54:46

Wayfinding Practice.com. Right. And as far

54:48

as specialties and things go, very

54:50

very important, I think especially as

54:52

you put it with people, hopefully

54:54

getting into the mental health field

54:56

and other, you know, coaching and

54:58

things as well. A little history

55:00

thing. A lot of people don't

55:03

know. The professional counseling model actually

55:05

started out from career counseling and

55:07

technical colleges and things. So anyway,

55:09

it's another little history thing. The

55:11

Thursday, this history, history, blurbs that

55:13

I put out in so we

55:15

got. I've got a couple of

55:17

things I can throw in there

55:19

for the history. I'm in the

55:22

house, people can hear. You can

55:24

hear those, of course, on our

55:26

patron. Once a month, one of

55:28

them drops on the main feed

55:30

in full and full. And then

55:32

there's little teasers, teasers, teasers too.

55:34

interested in getting involved in supporting

55:36

the Broken Brain, you can go

55:38

to Dwighthurst.com/support. You can also, if

55:41

you do that, you get access

55:43

to bonus materials plus, you will

55:45

also know that 50% of whatever

55:47

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55:49

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55:51

month that you join. Amity, once

55:53

again, thank you so much. for

55:55

joining today. Thank you for

55:57

you for having

55:59

me. This was

56:02

a great conversation. you

56:23

for listening to

56:25

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56:27

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56:30

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