0:14

Recording in progress. And we're

0:16

here we're here going strong and

0:18

extra strong today because we

0:21

got some really, really really things

0:23

to talk about. Going to be

0:25

able to talk about about my

0:27

experience watching and the experience of

0:29

making a very powerful film. a

0:31

very the way, everyone, this is

0:33

the way, Broken Brain. Welcome back.

0:35

I'm your host Brain. Welcome I am

0:37

super excited today to be

0:40

joined by Matt by who is

0:42

the director, producer, producer, and the writer and

0:44

for the independent independent

0:47

documentary film, inheritance that put together

0:49

by your production studio, Millrock

0:51

Productions. This is a great

0:53

film that showcases a a story

0:55

of addiction, a lot of about but

0:57

a lot of about family

0:59

and family patterns, hope, tragedy,

1:01

lots of trauma, which we

1:03

talk about a lot on

1:05

this show. show. And so, Matt, I'm so

1:07

Matt, I'm so grateful for

1:09

you for being here today.

1:11

Thanks, Dwight. I'm really I'm really glad to be

1:13

here. Well, this, this Well, this follows

1:15

follows particularly, tell and you tell

1:17

me if I get the names

1:19

wrong here, but you have

1:21

a little a little, a to them

1:23

at the end. I wanted to

1:25

upfront mention to up front mention the Ramsey,

1:28

and and bowling families. I that right? That's

1:30

correct, correct. absolutely. following them

1:32

them part of the part of the

1:34

country specifically? So

1:36

this is Southeast Ohio. So it's

1:38

So it's Appalachia, but

1:40

it's right It's Ohio, just

1:42

along the Ohio the Ohio River,

1:44

West Virginia. Great. Great. And you

1:46

really follow very, very intensely.

1:49

And I'll I'll tell you, when

1:51

I watch this. this, mean,

1:53

I felt like I went on

1:55

a journey. it mean, we're going through, I

1:57

mean, people are born, people die, through,

1:59

I I mean. people age, which is

2:01

kind of leads into one of

2:04

my first questions, but is how

2:06

long were you making this?

2:08

It seemed, I mean, it obviously

2:10

covered just based off the maturation

2:13

of the kids involved. I was

2:15

like, this reminds me of boyhood,

2:18

except it's interesting, more interesting.

2:20

It's also true. It's also, I

2:22

mean, not engineered plot wise. And

2:24

by the way, you know, boyhood's

2:27

great guys don't come at me.

2:29

But... But maybe the guys

2:31

really go hard into like the

2:34

time you cover. How long is

2:36

the, is the film, you know,

2:38

watching, how long were you with

2:41

these people? Yeah, it's, it is

2:43

like, in fact, we've talked about

2:46

sort of like a real life

2:48

boyhood. We actually filmed, so the

2:50

families that you mentioned up front,

2:53

Bowling Stumbo and Ramsey family, is

2:55

that it's actually one group.

2:57

They're all interrelated through either being

3:00

cousins or grandkids, etc. through the

3:02

whole, the families are interconnected. So

3:04

we followed that group for 11

3:07

years. And so we actually

3:09

document five generations of this family

3:11

over the course of the film.

3:14

and spent 11 years documenting them,

3:16

telling their stories. And the main

3:19

character, the protagonist, Curtis, we

3:21

meet at age 12 and we

3:23

follow him all the way through

3:25

until age 18. So we actually

3:28

followed him for a full six

3:30

of those 11 years. And so

3:33

you had started before, before

3:35

you kind of settled on it.

3:37

A lot of it is told

3:39

in relation to him, not exclusively,

3:42

I felt like obviously, obviously there's

3:44

other people, but a lot

3:46

of it really seemed to evolve

3:49

around the way he interacts with

3:51

the world around him and his

3:53

family system and addiction. And I'll

3:56

tell you, you hooked me

3:58

right away when I started watching

4:00

he's I believe it's the first

4:03

scene is he's just looking in

4:05

the camera talking about rocks and

4:07

I have a nine-year-old right now

4:10

who it was you know Stephen

4:12

universe was the gateway to interest

4:15

because it has all these characters

4:17

that are represented by gems but

4:19

She's really into rocks. And it's

4:22

like, oh, what's this kind

4:24

of rock? Hey, can we look

4:26

this up online and borrowing books

4:29

from school and things and, you

4:31

know, and I was like, wow,

4:33

okay, right away, okay, I'm,

4:35

I'm very, very connected to this

4:38

child. And yeah, knowing the topic,

4:40

I'm like, oh, I hope, oh,

4:43

what, ooh, you know, already I'm

4:45

invested in what's going to

4:47

happen, you know, here, yeah. Yeah,

4:49

it's, it's a, it's a, it's

4:52

a, it's one of the earlier

4:54

scenes in the film. It's really

4:57

our main introduction to him and

4:59

he was 12 years old,

5:01

you know, growing up in a

5:03

family with, with a lot of

5:06

intergenerational trauma, every adult in his

5:08

sphere either was actively battling addiction

5:11

or had gone through that.

5:13

And we're talking parents, grandparents, cousins,

5:15

uncles, aunts, you name it. And

5:17

so at 12 he has a

5:20

perspective on that sort of experience

5:22

that was that was very

5:24

powerful and insightful. But when he's

5:27

talking about those rocks, he's talking

5:29

about the volcanic rocks, and he's

5:31

sort of explaining each type of

5:34

rock, and it's pretty interesting because

5:36

he starts to talk about what

5:39

rock he would be and explaining

5:41

that he, you know, he had

5:43

certain qualities similar to the rock

5:46

that it was hard to change

5:48

and shiny and you couldn't

5:50

just break it. And so it

5:53

spoke a lot to his character

5:55

and who he is as a

5:57

person. you know that this was

6:00

going to be such an

6:02

undertaking of time? Was that an

6:04

intention from the genesis of this

6:07

project? Absolutely not. I'm not

6:09

sure anybody goes into, I mean,

6:11

link letters one, right, with boyhood,

6:13

he kind of knew what he

6:15

was doing, but as far as

6:17

documentaries go, you know, you sort

6:19

of enter into these and you

6:21

have to follow the story where

6:23

it leads you. And I think

6:25

when we started, we actually first

6:27

started filming another character or Curtis's

6:30

older cousin, JP. who is sort

6:32

of a secondary main character in

6:34

the film. And we started with

6:36

him and filming him and And

6:38

then we met Curtis, and it

6:40

was at that moment when we

6:42

met Curtis, we felt like, okay,

6:44

we can really empathize with Curtis,

6:46

and we can really look at

6:48

the sort of familial influence in

6:50

the intergenerational aspect of a lot

6:52

of these issues through the eyes

6:54

of a child, 12 year old.

6:56

And so at that point, we

6:58

thought, okay, we'll. maybe follow Curtis

7:00

until he's 14. So we'll film

7:02

for two more years. And then

7:04

we'll kind of end it with

7:06

this. He's on that precipice of

7:09

teenage years and where's he going

7:11

and what's going to happen? And

7:13

then we got to 14, you

7:15

know, we filmed for two years

7:17

and it just wasn't the right

7:19

place to end it. So then

7:21

we thought, okay, maybe. you know,

7:23

maybe, you know, 16 and we

7:25

filmed for a couple more years

7:27

and it just wasn't the right

7:29

place to end and we finally

7:31

filmed him up until his 18th

7:33

birthday. And so it was at

7:35

that point that we, you know,

7:37

that given everything that we had

7:39

filmed and where we were at

7:41

with sort of the narrative arc

7:43

that we felt like that was

7:46

a good place to, to stop,

7:48

which is where we ended. Well,

7:50

I mean, it's very interesting. Obviously,

7:52

you start with someone younger, you're

7:54

earlier in whatever process they're going

7:56

through. it strikes me that unlike

7:58

a project of fiction, you have

8:00

no way of anticipating what's going

8:02

to happen, right? And does that,

8:04

how does that factor into the

8:06

way that you're telling the story

8:08

as you're recording the story unfolding

8:10

before you? You're not, you know,

8:12

obviously it's not like, oh, you

8:14

know, at this point, he will

8:16

be here and we want to

8:18

make sure to get that. It's

8:20

like, we don't know what's going

8:23

to. Although, I mean, to be

8:25

honest, as I'm watching it, I'm

8:27

like, boy, there's some trends here.

8:29

I would be surprised if he

8:31

doesn't fall into it all, obviously.

8:33

That's, I think, maybe part of

8:35

even the message you're trying to

8:37

send is the patterns and the

8:39

tragedy there. But anyway, how does

8:41

that factor into your work? Because

8:43

you are kind of seeing what's

8:45

going to happen. You know, that's

8:47

an interesting question. So my... My

8:50

wife and I, so I co-directed this

8:52

with Amy Tonsing, who's also my wife,

8:54

and amazingly still my wife after making

8:56

a feature documentary for 11 years. Like,

8:59

you know, that's a, I don't believe

9:01

we'll be in and of itself, let

9:03

alone making a feature doc independently on

9:05

our own. We'll do a relationship episode

9:07

where you can talk about it. Exactly.

9:09

It's a bonding house. We can do

9:11

a whole other episode. Yes. So we

9:14

come out of the background of still

9:16

photography and photojournalism and we're both National

9:18

Geographic photographers. We met at National Geographic

9:20

Geographic and sort of the way in

9:22

which we would approach our work, let's

9:24

say on a National Geographic assignment. would

9:26

be to really immerse, spend a lot

9:28

of time, kind of fly on the

9:31

wall. The type of photography that we

9:33

do, still photography is people photography. We're

9:35

not, even though when you think of

9:37

national geographic, you very often think of

9:39

bears and tigers and stuff. We don't

9:41

do that. We focus on culture and

9:43

religion and these other aspects around the

9:45

human condition, how we with

9:48

the land around us

9:50

and stuff like

9:52

that. out of that come

9:54

out of that tradition

9:56

where you really

9:58

are a fly on

10:00

the wall. You

10:03

spend a lot of

10:05

time just gathering

10:07

the story and witnessing

10:09

it and recording

10:11

it with your camera.

10:13

So, you know, You know,

10:15

there are documentaries that do

10:17

that are there are some

10:20

wonderful docs out there. docs Many

10:22

docs are focused now they

10:24

more on. where it's already on

10:26

interviews because it's much more based on the of know

10:28

where it's already going to end because it's

10:30

much more based on the concept of

10:32

the information they're trying to get across. happened

10:34

and already happened and we want to

10:36

hit this part of it or that part

10:38

of it. it, right? Yes, and and

10:41

it's also much more economical as far

10:43

far as budgeting, because you

10:45

know. get 15 We can get 15

10:47

interviews, we can get this b wrap we

10:49

can wrap it up within a year

10:51

and a half or two years. years. Our

10:53

Our film, being first filmmakers, going in we in,

10:55

we approached it very much from the

10:58

of the way we do our the way we

11:00

do our still photography. And so

11:02

we ended up just immersing in letting the story

11:04

play out. It's one of the real strengths,

11:06

I think, of the film. of the was

11:08

It was probably... someone out of

11:10

ignorance on our of ignorance a deep our

11:12

part, but a deep passion to tell

11:15

the we so it's both. we And

11:17

so as we immersed and we started

11:19

documenting what was happening in front

11:21

of us and became connected to the

11:23

family and the the issues in the

11:25

community, we we just stuck with it. and

11:27

we we kept filming and filming, we

11:29

just We just We never never

11:31

planned. for where it was going

11:33

to go. We just started. We and

11:35

let it take us on

11:37

this journey. it take us on was really

11:39

the And so that in which we

11:42

approached it. way in we became

11:44

more connected, it. we felt much

11:46

more compelled, even obligated

11:48

to do justice. even

11:51

for opening up their hearts and

11:53

opening up their homes and

11:55

opening up their tragedies. their to

11:57

our lens and to up their

12:01

And so we just felt more

12:03

and more committed to stick to

12:05

it until we hopefully, you know,

12:08

there's never any one version, right,

12:10

of anybody's story. But we, our

12:13

guiding light here was really to,

12:15

to try to do justice to

12:17

the overall aspects of their love,

12:20

that exists, deep love, their struggle,

12:22

their their lot in life that

12:24

they sort of land in through

12:27

what their parents have gone through

12:29

and their grandparents have gone through,

12:31

not to mention the region that

12:34

they live in. You know, you

12:36

grow up in Appalachia, you have

12:38

a very different experience than if

12:41

you grow up in, you know,

12:43

southern Connecticut. And that's true in

12:45

all the places that we live,

12:48

but there's definitely an aspect to

12:50

the location here that plays a

12:53

role in the film. It definitely

12:55

can feel very much like an

12:57

area that other people have forgotten.

13:00

The rest of the country has

13:02

maybe forgotten or doesn't pay attention

13:04

to. I think that the cultural

13:07

divide, I mean, it even has

13:09

implications and ramifications for the I

13:11

mean, you know, society politically, when

13:14

people talk about, you know, nowadays,

13:16

when people talk about, oh, how

13:18

could this group of people think

13:21

this? And it's like they are

13:23

having a complete, they're living in

13:25

a completely different country, a completely

13:28

different situation to where what I

13:30

post on social media, you know,

13:33

they're not, I mean, just the

13:35

process you're showing of survival amongst

13:37

some of these challenges, addiction being

13:40

only a part of that, right?

13:42

you are that is that is

13:44

very insightful it's also something that

13:47

is very it's sort of unspoken

13:49

in our film we don't there's

13:51

no prescriptions in our film we

13:54

we interviewed all sorts of experts

13:56

the drugs are of Ohio pastors

13:58

police officers the DA interviewed people

14:01

that are running addiction treatment centers.

14:03

None of them ended up in

14:05

the film. Yeah, that struck me

14:08

is that it's all about the

14:10

family, right? That's right. When we

14:13

put that in, we felt that

14:15

it took the viewer out of

14:17

the experience of just sitting. with

14:20

the reality of our family that

14:22

we're documenting, the reality of their

14:24

life and what it is, and

14:27

just live it. Just sit, you

14:29

go in with this 12-year-old boy

14:31

and you live his life and

14:34

see his life through his eyes

14:36

and his experiences for 83 minutes,

14:38

and you then have to walk

14:41

away with your own feelings and

14:43

your own thoughts that you have

14:45

to process and work through. voices

14:48

of authority in there, but somehow

14:50

we felt started to take away

14:53

from that immersive aspect of this

14:55

film. It's a choice. There's other

14:57

filmmakers and, you know, certainly very

15:00

accomplished filmmakers who would have made

15:02

a different choice, but this is

15:04

a choice we made. And to

15:07

your point, this this film really

15:09

looks at a demographic, it looks

15:11

at an America that is so

15:14

often forgotten about unreported, but yet

15:16

is so fundamentally important in the

15:18

role that it's playing in our

15:21

society, in our politics, when people

15:23

who live in bubbles on either

15:25

coast or whatever, when they think

15:28

of how upset and angry and

15:30

outraged people might be at their

15:33

lot and seeing that the system

15:35

is against them in so many

15:37

ways. It's it's it's there's two

15:40

there's a disconnect there right and

15:42

so when you see this family

15:44

and you see the community that

15:47

suffered and struggled so much, some

15:49

because of their own doing, for

15:51

sure. And if you have a

15:54

conversation with any of them, they

15:56

will talk about their own personal

15:58

responsibilities in the choices that they've

16:01

made. And that is real. for

16:03

sure, but there is also an

16:05

aspect to geography as destiny here

16:08

and the luck of the draw

16:10

of where you're born and what

16:13

family you're born into, whether it's

16:15

socio-economic or whether it's intergenerational trauma.

16:17

has a huge influence here on

16:20

the lives that folks are living

16:22

and therefore this is happening in

16:24

many places throughout America and it's

16:27

having an influence on our politics,

16:29

on our discourse, on all aspects

16:31

of our social safety net. And

16:34

so the film doesn't explicitly dig

16:36

into any of that, but it

16:38

is absolutely present throughout the entire

16:41

film. Well, I think, and to

16:43

your point, you know, to me,

16:45

the documentaries and the things that

16:48

follow and, and they do drop

16:50

in, you know, here's an expert

16:53

here, here's an expert there, some

16:55

of which are very, very good,

16:57

but they're telling it, they're doing

17:00

a completely different message than what

17:02

you guys are doing. And I

17:04

think that one of the things

17:07

I enjoyed is the newness of

17:09

saying, Now we're really here, we're

17:11

not dropping in a teacher or

17:14

a therapist or a, you know,

17:16

a government official or a cop

17:18

or anybody who's going to once

17:21

in a while say, yeah, well,

17:23

this is a, this is a,

17:25

this is a, you know, whatever,

17:28

and that, that's a different project,

17:30

you know, this really project, you

17:33

know, this really did, and I

17:35

imagine, I mean, I felt like

17:37

at the end of an hour

17:40

and they're a part of your

17:42

life, right, right? Absolutely. And I

17:44

don't know how often you were

17:47

there every day or you drop

17:49

in every few months or something,

17:51

but I mean, it's enough that

17:54

you know each other for reals,

17:56

right? Yeah, for sure. We, you

17:58

know, we film. 11 years, as

18:01

I said, I did probably about

18:03

95% of the cinematography and of

18:05

the filming. I was in the

18:08

field a lot, but my wife

18:10

would come in, she would also

18:13

film. We brought our daughter, you

18:15

know, I have footage of Curtis

18:17

at 13 years old bouncing my

18:20

daughter on his knee and, you

18:22

know, we We really got to

18:24

know the family and they joke,

18:27

you know, I would show up

18:29

and, you know, here I am

18:31

with the camera going around and,

18:34

and, you know, they would joke

18:36

about me being, you know, family

18:38

and, and of course I'm not,

18:41

but they would, you know, they

18:43

would sort of joke about the

18:45

aspect that I kept showing up

18:48

and, and they were extraordinarily generous.

18:51

and open and brave, the courage

18:53

that it takes for all of

18:56

the folks in the film to

18:58

open up and trust us to

19:00

tell their story. Not all of

19:03

it, you know, happy, happy stuff,

19:05

right, struggles and highs and lows

19:07

and Excuse me, it's just an

19:10

incredible act of courage honestly on

19:12

their part to do that. And

19:14

I felt like you guys honored

19:17

that in the sense that as

19:19

someone who's worked with addiction for

19:21

a long time in my career

19:24

with people, I really respect the

19:26

way that you preserved and showcased

19:29

their humanity. I think when people

19:31

think of addiction, they think of

19:33

drugs and alcohol. But the drugs

19:36

and the alcohol are just a

19:38

part of the whole system of

19:40

what's going on. These are whole

19:43

human beings, right? And I think

19:45

you showcase not only that like

19:47

they have true passion attachment and

19:50

love for each other, they really

19:52

are, you know, with all the

19:54

ups and ups. and those things.

19:57

They're trying to take care of

19:59

their family in every way that

20:01

they know how. They're there for

20:04

each other. Nobody was getting kicked

20:06

out on the street or anything.

20:09

Everybody had a place to sleep

20:11

and everybody was was pulling for

20:13

each other. And I think that

20:16

that's that that once again the

20:18

the topic can overshadow the understanding

20:20

of a person's individuality. They have

20:23

a full range of emotions. They

20:25

love their kids. You know, and

20:27

the great thing too that I

20:30

felt was that, you know, therapy,

20:32

we often talk about how people

20:34

are the experts of their own

20:37

situation. Nobody in there. I

20:39

didn't feel like anybody who was

20:41

talking to you. They all seemed

20:43

to have a handle on what

20:45

was going on. They were talking

20:47

just the same way that an

20:49

expert would come in and say,

20:51

well, in our family system and

20:53

you know, dealing with this and

20:55

dealing with that. And you could

20:58

tell that they had educated themselves

21:00

and that they had instincts. Yeah,

21:02

this is why this happens. And

21:04

we're trying. Boy, it's frustrating. It's

21:06

hard to change. I mean, that

21:08

really struck me. And it showed

21:10

a lot of relationships and things

21:12

that are very, very much exactly

21:14

what I hear from clients of

21:16

mine who talk about their family

21:18

systems. I saw that on the

21:20

screen. I was like, yes, that

21:22

people don't ever talk about that.

21:24

Yeah, and I mean, hopefully, I

21:26

mean, I appreciate you noticing all

21:28

that. Hopefully, that's clear that, and

21:30

that that goes to. that

21:34

speaks to a really important takeaway

21:36

I think from the film which

21:38

which if we had put experts

21:41

in and all this other stuff

21:43

might have changed that I think

21:45

where we sit is they're expressing

21:48

their thoughts they're expressing and we're

21:50

seeing even in conversations that they

21:53

have a very an acute awareness

21:55

of what is going on and

21:57

what they're struggling with and the

22:00

love that's there and love for

22:02

their kids even though you know

22:05

we all know this right like

22:07

if we step back and we're

22:09

honest with ourselves as a parent

22:12

I know when I'm doing stuff

22:14

that maybe I'm being triggered I'm

22:16

not necessarily showing up as the

22:19

best parent I possibly could I

22:21

try you know and that's half

22:24

the battle but And folks who

22:26

are struggling with addiction or substance

22:28

use disorder, you know, they also

22:31

know, but there's caught very often

22:33

in these cycles and in these

22:36

moments where, you know, you're trying,

22:38

but it's not necessarily breaking through.

22:40

And I think You know, also

22:43

to your point when you're talking

22:45

about people are thinking of addiction

22:48

is about drugs and alcohol and

22:50

I think there's a lot of

22:52

emphasis right now on opioids and

22:55

now especially fentanyl when we started

22:57

the film back in 2012. you

22:59

know the opioid crisis was really

23:02

starting to to to come to

23:04

the for right around that time

23:07

it started to become a little

23:09

bit after that really sort of

23:11

public discourse and what we found

23:14

in our coverage was it's not

23:16

one drug because the grandparents They

23:19

weren't necessarily using opioids when they

23:21

started out. It was cocaine, it

23:23

was crack, it was, you know,

23:26

the generation before it was alcohol.

23:28

So it isn't about necessarily building

23:30

a wall at the border to

23:33

stop fentanyl from coming in. That's

23:35

not a bad thing to stop

23:38

fentanyl from coming in at our

23:40

ports or borders. That's fine. But

23:42

that is not going to solve

23:45

this issue. That's not going to

23:47

solve the problem. Because it will

23:50

be, it's already moved on. meth

23:52

because it's more readily available and

23:54

it's cheaper. So it's much more

23:57

about our society making a decision

23:59

to dig into the mental health

24:01

needs and making sure that individuals

24:04

that are struggling with some of

24:06

these things are able to get

24:09

access to process and work through

24:11

some of the trauma that they've

24:13

experienced in their childhoods so that

24:16

they're not passing it on. And

24:18

I will say, even though we

24:21

spent all this time in Appalachia,

24:23

rural community, mostly white folks or

24:25

all white folks that we were

24:28

documenting. These issues exist across all

24:30

demographics. It exists in cities and

24:33

small towns alike where people are

24:35

not necessarily getting the help to

24:37

break these cycles. And I think

24:40

that's what it really comes down

24:42

to. It's not just policing one

24:44

drug. Can't incarcerate your way out

24:47

of this problem. It's much more

24:49

on a human level treating families

24:52

helping families work through these things.

24:54

One dynamic that I don't hear

24:56

talked about very much for all

24:59

that we talk about families and

25:01

and sometimes this the trope or

25:04

stereotype people get into is the

25:06

here's a person who's trying to

25:08

get clean and they have family

25:11

that are supportive and so we

25:13

talk about it in terms of

25:15

being rough on the Nowadays, maybe

25:18

more supportive too, but kind of

25:20

being rough on the person who

25:23

has to get clean. And here's

25:25

the almost kind of semi martyrdom

25:27

of the people who are helping

25:30

in support. And seeing that that

25:32

dynamic is not black and white,

25:35

and particularly I'm thinking about the

25:37

scene where you have JP who's

25:39

trying to get clean, he's putting

25:42

his life together, he's working real

25:44

hard, he's sitting there talking to

25:46

his grandma. who is the one

25:49

who earlier on is saying, like,

25:51

I don't get it with these

25:54

drugs. Why would they do this?

25:56

Why would they do this? While

25:58

she's self-medicating with avoidance and and

26:01

busyness and things, not dealing with

26:03

the death, the overdose death, she

26:06

won't even talk, she gets angry

26:08

with him when he tries to

26:10

talk about how he's learned that

26:13

you should share your feelings and

26:15

process them. And he talks about

26:18

even being molested and she discounts

26:20

it and this and that. And

26:22

so there's a lot more nuance

26:25

to that relationship where you're living

26:27

with someone who is the roof

26:29

of your head and the supporter

26:32

at the same time they're telling

26:34

you you suck or they're telling

26:37

you you're a liar or they're

26:39

telling you you know they're they're

26:41

causing a lot of issues and

26:44

I hear that so much it's

26:46

so normal for these things but

26:49

people don't showcase that very often

26:51

if that makes sense. Yeah that's

26:53

an interesting point and I think

26:56

A lot of the film, I

26:58

think, not, again, not explicitly, but

27:00

just in the presence of being

27:03

and experiencing this, really speaks to

27:05

or illustrates that family is part

27:08

of the solution, but also part

27:10

of the problem. It's just, these

27:12

are complex things, you know, We

27:15

all have families that have incongruencies

27:17

and things that bump up against

27:20

each other both in supportive ways

27:22

but also in ways that might

27:24

undermine or might create some of

27:27

these feelings that we then try

27:29

to escape from through alcohol or

27:31

drugs or whatever it might be.

27:34

And, you know, Curtis, the boy

27:36

in the film, I've

27:38

had conversations with him, you know, and he has

27:41

said, and he's, you know, he's a teenager now,

27:43

he's 19 now, and so he has said, he

27:45

says, you know, I have to, essentially his voice

27:47

is like, I have to get out on my

27:50

own, you know, I have to get away from

27:52

my family, not in a, it doesn't mean that

27:54

in a hurtful way at all, but like, I

27:56

need to get out on my own and

27:59

my own thing, I mean,

28:01

but I also but I also can't leave

28:03

them. I have to be here to support

28:05

them and help them. And so

28:07

he feels this And so

28:09

push and pull push and pull between

28:12

his own path. but

28:15

being there for his parents, or

28:17

his younger siblings, or other

28:19

folks around him that are struggling.

28:22

around him that are he has a,

28:24

he feels a real obligation there.

28:26

And that is, that speaks

28:28

to there and a cultural sense for

28:30

that part of our nation

28:32

where there is a deep part of

28:35

our nation to is a

28:37

deep deep tie to to family

28:39

tradition and being

28:41

together. together. you know, but

28:43

it also speaks to sort of that. of that, that

28:45

need to break to break free

28:47

and maybe. from some of get away from

28:49

some of the more challenging aspects of

28:51

his family that have cycles that are continuing,

28:54

or, but but also have to

28:57

stay connected to help. a It's

28:59

a real dichotomy and difficult situation

29:01

there. When there are things that are

29:03

things that are unhealthy and

29:05

other and other things in a family

29:07

system, I see I see it over and

29:09

over, it's an ongoing. conflict

29:12

it's an ongoing because the that people

29:14

have are the people who are the

29:16

healthiest are the people who form independence

29:19

from that system system from that

29:21

system and are not in it anymore.

29:23

at the same time not wrong. not

29:25

wrong. The system suffers when

29:27

they're gone were if they were at

29:30

a at a young age parenting

29:32

their parenting their parents and their

29:34

siblings and child, we used to call it

29:36

used to call it a lot

29:38

in addiction it's really a ratio. That's another

29:40

really a ratio your move by another thing I

29:42

like about your move by the way. There's not

29:44

much black and white. It's all, a, there's a, there's a here,

29:47

but trying to find, you know, know,

29:49

he's out, he's right. right. He's right. in both

29:51

those cases. that's the thing that's

29:53

very hard is it's like, very hard

29:55

is struggle without me here. I

29:57

won't get. here. I won't get healthy if

30:00

I here as I can if

30:02

I'm not here. And then of

30:04

course, you know, finding that balance

30:07

that works, that works, you know,

30:09

for someone's life. And I think

30:11

it's a very, it's another part

30:14

of the struggle people don't talk

30:16

about. People, we tend to like

30:19

to think in black and white

30:21

terms. We'll get out of there,

30:23

or, you know, or, you know,

30:26

or, you know, I wondered about

30:28

the effect that it had on

30:31

you guys. You witness a lot

30:33

of things in this movie. I

30:35

don't know how you edit 11

30:38

years of all this, but you

30:40

did a great job because there's

30:43

so many things that tie in.

30:45

with each other, but during this

30:47

time, I mean, you're right there,

30:50

you know, with the camera, as

30:52

we're seeing these things happen, so

30:54

you're witnessing overdose, the effects of

30:57

it, of at least, you know,

30:59

people who died, you've gotten to

31:02

know, seeing, even just the scenes

31:04

where I saw like a carnival

31:06

event, and there's like nine, ten,

31:09

eleven-year-old kids smoking openly. You know,

31:11

just seeing that is a little

31:14

jarring for many of us. seeing

31:16

people, seeing people, you know, and

31:18

seeing Curtis go through what he

31:21

did. Oh, go ahead. No, that's

31:23

what I was curious about. Yeah,

31:25

a lot of a lot of

31:28

stuff. You know, there's there's a

31:30

trigger warning at the beginning of

31:33

the film, you know, because it

31:35

does show use of needles and

31:37

it shows other stuff. And it

31:40

also talks a lot about difficult

31:42

things. But the interesting. So the.

31:45

the kids at the carnival, they

31:47

are, those are, I've never seen

31:49

them before, but they are very

31:52

sort of, um, realistic candy cigarettes.

31:54

Oh, they literally, they're good. It's

31:57

so good. Clumes of smoke, or

31:59

like powder, and they look incredibly

32:01

real. And we, you know, I

32:04

witnessed. and even if you look

32:06

at it through that lens it's

32:08

still still problematic right you know

32:11

the parents are there smoking real

32:13

cigarettes and these kids are smoking

32:16

cigarettes that look like you can't

32:18

tell the difference and and we

32:20

actually wrestled for a while with

32:23

like how Is it misleading? Is

32:25

it, you know, because they look

32:28

so real and in the end

32:30

where we landed, you know, because

32:32

as documentarians, and certainly the way

32:35

we approach this film, the way

32:37

we approached it was, was very,

32:39

very rigid and focused on ethics.

32:42

We were, We weren't setting up

32:44

scenes or now of course anytime

32:47

you put a documentary together you're

32:49

you're having to move parts around

32:51

scenes around you warp time and

32:54

you you know there's things that

32:56

you have to do in the

32:59

process of creating a film that

33:01

you can't just film chronologically although

33:03

because this was a boy growing

33:06

up and we see him

33:08

grow up through the film, you

33:10

can't really take part of the

33:12

ending and put it up front,

33:14

right? So because he's older. So

33:16

we were held chronologically. Right. In

33:19

some respects, we were held chronologically.

33:21

We did do some. but certainly

33:23

some morphing of time, but that

33:25

shot specifically of the kids with

33:27

the candy cigarettes. Where we ended

33:29

up landing with it was when

33:31

I showed up or somebody was

33:33

to walk around there and they

33:35

saw it in the distance, they

33:38

would have no idea. they would

33:40

just see what we saw. And

33:42

so that's how we presented it

33:44

with a really just trying to

33:46

adhere to a reality of what

33:48

actually you would see and what

33:50

happened as opposed to like trying

33:52

to explicitly describe which you might

33:54

not have had if you were

33:56

just walking around. the fair. Well

33:59

it also delivered as many other

34:01

scenes did the delineation between childhood

34:03

and adulthood. This is almost just

34:05

a part of adulthood. If I'm

34:07

passing a joint I don't hand

34:09

it to the kid but how

34:11

old is the kid when I

34:13

start handing it to him? Right.

34:15

And one thing that struck me

34:18

there's a bit where Curtis when

34:20

he's young is he's doing some

34:22

dancing whether it's tick-tock dances or

34:24

flossing or something. and he's telling

34:26

all the adults, get up, dance

34:28

with me. Oh, and they're like,

34:30

no, no. And then a little

34:32

later, I see all the adults

34:34

dancing. Differences, they're intoxicated, right? It's

34:37

like, here's how we party. Here's

34:39

our whimsy and joy and play

34:41

as adults versus as the kids.

34:43

And that was a very stark,

34:45

you know, you see that you

34:47

have a lot of footage of

34:49

the kids playing, taking care of

34:51

themselves, entertaining themselves, and the adults

34:53

in their lives. And once again

34:55

with that nuance, because Curtis and

34:58

his sister and his dad, there's

35:00

a wonderful scene where they're playing

35:02

together. And he's just, I mean,

35:04

he's in there, you know, he's

35:06

in there, he's doing the dad

35:08

thing. I mean, it's like banded

35:10

on Bluey or something, he's in

35:12

there playing and he's, you know,

35:14

driving cars with them and swinging

35:17

on tire swings. And then there's

35:19

other times where either because of

35:21

legal problems or intoxication where the

35:23

parents are just not available. even

35:25

though they really want to be,

35:27

they would really like to be.

35:29

So I felt that that showcased

35:31

that, you know, dichotomy and that

35:33

that range very well. And it

35:35

is so complex, right? I mean,

35:38

we all are. You know, that's

35:40

a big thing that's important to

35:42

me is I see, you know,

35:44

I look back on my family

35:46

and my upbringing or or talk

35:48

to friends that are, you know,

35:50

all of our families are incredibly

35:52

complex and there's all sorts of

35:54

stuff and we all as human

35:57

beings are. So when I look

35:59

at George who you're talking about,

36:01

Curtis's dad, you know, he is

36:03

one of the most physically fit

36:05

human I've ever seen. I mean,

36:07

he is, his, his, his body

36:09

is just incredibly strong. He's, he

36:11

does a lot of tree work

36:13

and cutting trees and climbing way

36:16

up and, you know, and he,

36:18

he earns a living that way

36:20

sometimes, but then they're, they're really

36:22

struggling, they struggle socioeconomically and struggle

36:24

with poverty. And so his truck.

36:26

breaks down and he doesn't have

36:28

a truck so how's he going

36:30

to work you know and but

36:32

he does he engages and he

36:34

plays with his kids and he's

36:37

he's he's really you know amazing

36:39

that way but there's also this

36:41

other side where you know he's

36:43

talked about he has struggles and

36:45

and there are times through whatever

36:47

reason where where he's not able

36:49

necessarily to always you know be

36:51

there and you know The kids

36:53

have ended up in foster care

36:56

multiple times through, I don't know

36:58

all the back stories, so I

37:00

don't know, you know, if it

37:02

was a minor, you know, sort

37:04

of paperwork issue or it was

37:06

something else. Man knows some of

37:08

the issues around it, but not

37:10

all the time. So there were

37:12

times through either circumstance or whatever

37:14

was going on that he wasn't

37:17

able to be there. And

37:19

I know that, I mean, Curtis

37:22

says he gets older, even comments

37:24

that even just the association of

37:26

his last name seems to mark

37:28

him, which, you know, according, you

37:30

know, just just watching him and

37:33

knowing how teenagers are, right? There's

37:35

a little bit of that that

37:37

it's like, is there a perspective

37:39

he has that sets himself up

37:41

for failure? But you know, it's

37:43

true, it's not not true that

37:46

somebody's gonna like, oh, you're one

37:48

of those kids. You know, I

37:50

know, I know your dad, I

37:52

knew your whatever, and that there's

37:54

judgment that blocks growth and people

37:56

underestimate how big of a role

37:59

that plays, is that that support.

38:01

Absolutely, and to that point, I

38:03

think. we're on an impact campaign

38:05

now where essentially we've been going

38:07

out and having screenings where universities

38:09

will bring us in or other

38:12

groups, hospital networks, etc. will bring

38:14

us in and Curtis has been

38:16

participating in that. He's now 19,

38:18

he comes to some, not all,

38:20

depending on, you know, logistics and

38:22

everything else, but one of the

38:25

things that he has said from

38:27

the very beginning. is that he

38:29

really wants his teachers to see

38:31

this film. And he expressed how,

38:33

you know, he was probably the

38:35

kid sitting in the back of

38:38

the room, falling asleep, or not

38:40

able to pay attention. And he

38:42

said the one time when a

38:44

teacher was kind of giving him

38:46

a hard time, and he told

38:48

the teacher what he had dealt

38:51

with the night before and that

38:53

morning, by the time he was

38:55

done, he said the teacher was

38:57

in tears. And

39:00

the reality is, is that what

39:02

your point about name, oh, that

39:04

family or those kids or that,

39:06

you know, and public school teachers

39:08

do unbelievable work, both my parents

39:10

were public school teachers and they

39:13

were immersed in kids. It was

39:15

in an area where there was

39:17

definitely a lot of struggles and

39:19

I saw them really interact to

39:21

help, but it does not hurt.

39:23

to be reminded when you see

39:25

that kid in the back of

39:27

the class who's falling asleep or

39:30

they're not paying attention or they're

39:32

irritable or whatever else is going

39:34

on. Seeing this film I think

39:36

very much plants to seed in

39:38

your mind like whoa wait a

39:40

second this is not necessarily just

39:42

a kid who's screwing off necessarily

39:44

this kid might be dealing with

39:47

major stuff. that we need to

39:49

try to help with. And I

39:51

think a lot of public school

39:53

teachers do that, but they also

39:55

got 25 kids in their class

39:57

and they're juggling a bunch of

39:59

stuff. sometimes fall into the cracks.

40:01

It's a support issue for them

40:03

as well. We tasked them with

40:06

get it done, get it done,

40:08

get it done, get it done.

40:10

And so you got to get

40:12

it done, you know, and I'm

40:14

the same as, you know, you,

40:16

as I've seen kids over the

40:18

years, there's so many kids that

40:20

we look at and that the

40:23

adult reaction, when we're looking at

40:25

it in just the context of

40:27

the behavior, you know, as he's

40:29

even participating in society. Absolutely. And

40:31

people also underestimate the work that

40:33

people have to do to deal

40:35

with the trauma of their own.

40:37

Sometimes choices made under an altered

40:40

state because of systems or just

40:42

bad choices at all. It's traumatic

40:44

to have to clean that up

40:46

and have to say I got

40:48

to find a new high school

40:50

that will let me go in

40:52

when I've been kicked out. I

40:54

got to find a GED program.

40:57

I got to talk to a

40:59

PO, I got to, what's my

41:01

court date? You know, one of

41:03

the characters at one point, like,

41:05

boy, I need to remember when

41:07

my court date is. Those kinds

41:09

of things are incredibly stressful. I

41:11

wanted to, as we're getting up

41:14

towards the end here, I wanted

41:16

to make sure to ask. How

41:18

has this experience for you? How

41:20

has it affected your feelings towards,

41:22

I guess, these topics, but particularly

41:24

I wonder, how has it made

41:26

you feel in relationship with hope?

41:28

Because a lot of this is

41:31

there's hope for change. We don't

41:33

now then again because it's real

41:35

life we don't have a little

41:37

button of like here's the hopeful

41:39

note we're gonna end with it's

41:41

more like oh my gosh this

41:43

is very complicated and yet these

41:45

people do have hope when when

41:48

so how is this affected the

41:50

way you think about hope for

41:52

change? It's a great question and

41:54

I'll do the best I can

41:56

with it. I think like everything

41:58

else in life. Anything

42:01

good, you kind of have

42:03

to work for. And I

42:06

think you got to work

42:08

for hope. I think that

42:11

we as a society have

42:13

to make a decision. Are

42:16

we going to work to

42:18

make the hope realization? And

42:20

that means we have to

42:23

understand that folks, certainly in

42:25

rural communities, might not have

42:28

a car to get to

42:30

that appointment, might not have

42:33

gas money to drive the

42:35

hour to go see their

42:38

doctor or mental health professional.

42:40

A lot of rural communities

42:43

don't have enough mental health

42:45

professionals at all anyway. So

42:48

I think really the fundamental

42:50

thing is that all of

42:53

this comes down to nobody

42:55

wants to be struggling

42:58

with substance use disorder. I

43:00

mean really, nobody wants to

43:02

end up in situations where you're

43:04

either making choices, poor choices, where

43:06

your kids are ending up

43:08

in foster care. Nobody, people

43:10

don't want that. And

43:12

what you're dealing with is you're

43:15

dealing with people who, and I've

43:17

had my own, you know, ups

43:19

and downs, mental health, feeling good,

43:21

not feeling good, depending on whatever

43:23

scenario is. And I know that

43:25

when I'm struggling, and I'm just

43:28

not in a good mental place,

43:30

it is so difficult. to

43:32

like follow up with the doctor's

43:34

appointment or follow up with this

43:36

or get that thing done. I

43:39

mean, and then you feel overwhelmed

43:41

and this cycle, you know, sort

43:43

of this mental struggle continues. And

43:45

I'm somebody who, you know, thankfully

43:47

I've, you know, have some means,

43:49

I've, you know, I've been able

43:51

to make it through sort of

43:53

the struggles and I didn't grow

43:55

up in a family that really

43:58

had a lot of these things.

44:00

And my family has history with

44:02

mental health stuff and certainly some

44:04

history with alcoholism, but for the

44:06

most part, I wasn't growing up

44:08

in a really, really struggling place.

44:10

And I think when you have

44:12

a family, like we looked at

44:15

where Curtis is struggling growing up

44:17

in a place where he's been

44:19

in foster care multiple times, you

44:21

know, it's much more difficult. And

44:23

so we as a society have

44:25

to look at hope and say,

44:27

hope is there. There is absolutely

44:29

hope. But it's not just going

44:31

to happen in this notion, right?

44:34

You think of like JD Vance.

44:36

You know, God, I have my

44:38

own political views around him, but

44:40

God bless him that he grew

44:42

up apparently in a really hard

44:44

situation. He was able to find

44:46

his way out. He didn't do

44:48

that alone. He had help along

44:51

the way. And And the idea

44:53

that the Hollywood ending for all

44:55

these kids growing up in these

44:57

situations, that ain't reality. In their

44:59

world, that doesn't happen. And so

45:01

we as a society have to

45:03

decide, okay, how do we help

45:05

kids caught in these cycles? How

45:07

do we help the families? And

45:10

that will build the hope. That

45:12

makes sense. Absolutely. And I think

45:14

that it reminds me very much

45:16

of a phrase I heard a

45:18

long time ago, which is that

45:20

when we talk about our dreams

45:22

and will our dreams come true,

45:24

we have to remember that dreams

45:27

happen while we're asleep. And in

45:29

this wording, it was goals happen

45:31

when we're awake. But I think

45:33

you're describing a similar feeling about

45:35

hope. Hope can be an abstract

45:37

feeling or it can be something

45:39

that we're like. Well, I hope

45:41

this will happen. And I'm going

45:43

to do something about it, too.

45:46

You know, am I? Absolutely. And

45:48

the thing is, is like, a

45:50

lot of documentaries, you know, let

45:52

me let me rephrase. I'll start

45:54

again here. Let's name them specifically.

45:56

Well, just kidding. A lot of

45:58

a lot of times, we as

46:00

an audience. right? We want to

46:03

have it wrapped up in a

46:05

nice little bow. And oh, and

46:07

I'm guilty of that. I love

46:09

a good romcom that I watch

46:11

and I'm like, you know, it

46:13

ends happily and everything's good. The

46:15

reality is, is that if we're

46:17

going to think really about life

46:19

and about our fellow citizens and

46:22

about what goes on in our

46:24

own communities, it doesn't work that

46:26

way. And we need to invest,

46:28

we need to first of all

46:30

know about the issue. recognize that

46:32

there is an issue and that

46:34

we then have to work toward

46:36

helping or solving that problem. And

46:39

I think that the idea of

46:41

just having hope or

46:43

having it presented as we just

46:45

end up there is just unrealistic.

46:48

And I think there is hope

46:50

for every single individual and there

46:52

is hope for every child that

46:54

is in a tough situation. Absolutely.

46:56

But it does not happen in

46:59

a vacuum. It takes a teacher,

47:01

it takes a pastor, it takes

47:03

somebody who a family member who

47:05

takes interest, and then there's an

47:08

effort to create that hope of

47:10

changing. the path breaking the cycle

47:12

and I think that's where we're

47:14

at as a society. I don't

47:17

know which way we're going to

47:19

go, but we certainly have not

47:21

been providing the means to achieve

47:23

the hope. Very

47:26

well said, and very well, very

47:28

well made too. I really appreciate

47:30

it. And I want to take,

47:32

you know, just the time here

47:34

while we're here to thank you

47:36

and to thank you and Amy

47:38

for making this film. And also,

47:40

you know, they're not, I don't

47:42

know if they're here or within

47:44

the sound of my voice, but

47:46

these families as well. The project

47:48

that all of you are putting

47:50

together and especially Curtis, very brave.

47:52

what he's going through to do

47:54

this. But this is a big

47:56

chunk of all y'all's lives that

47:58

you've dedicated to bringing what I

48:00

think is. story that I would

48:02

recommend anybody, certainly there's the trigger

48:04

as you've talked about for people

48:06

who have trauma or addiction history,

48:08

be careful of course, but I

48:10

think anybody, especially if you're going

48:12

to be in a public health

48:14

or education or social service sector,

48:16

this is one of those I

48:18

would put on a list for,

48:20

I'd like to show this to

48:22

every counseling student, every nursing student,

48:24

every teacher going through. So we're

48:26

really grateful for you for making

48:28

it. I appreciate it. From personal

48:30

as well as the societal level,

48:32

I think. I appreciate that. And

48:34

we, you know, my wife and

48:36

I, you know, we dedicated a

48:38

lot of time and a lot

48:40

of effort to it, but we

48:42

didn't do it alone. We had

48:44

guidance from our executive producers, the

48:46

editor that worked on this, Curtis

48:49

Whittier, really brought a skill and

48:51

a viewpoint to it. Yes, that's

48:53

got to be a big. There's

48:55

probably quite a bit of film

48:57

to edit through, right? Yeah, there's

48:59

about 90 hours. We worked together

49:01

where I did sort of an

49:03

initial edit, and then he came

49:05

in and massage and did things

49:07

and brought a whole new voice

49:09

and vision to it, which was

49:11

incredibly important. Kyle Scott Wilson did

49:13

our score, which was lovely and

49:15

is amazing. You know, it takes

49:17

an entire group, it's a team

49:19

sport to make a documentary, I

49:21

just want to mention that, you

49:23

know, here, but also I think,

49:25

you know, that, like you talking

49:27

about showing it to these, to

49:29

social workers and students, and, you

49:31

know, that's really what we're pushing

49:33

at right now is to try

49:35

to have this be a conversation

49:37

starter and show it at two

49:39

folks and in areas where it

49:41

could maybe. raise awareness and get

49:43

more discussion going around some of

49:45

these issues. Well, let's take a

49:47

minute here to tell people how

49:49

can they get involved in either

49:51

supporting the impact campaign as you're

49:53

going out or where they should

49:55

come. you if they would like

49:57

to see the film or have

49:59

it shown to people or you

50:01

know I'm sure I'm sure it

50:03

wouldn't hurt for people to be

50:05

able to help even to I'm

50:07

sure you there's some funding needs

50:09

this is not a cheap project

50:11

to do so where can people

50:13

it's a good focal point for

50:15

people to go where they can

50:17

help. Yeah the best thing is

50:19

probably to go to our website

50:21

it's inheritance the film. And all

50:23

the information is on there. You

50:25

can watch the trailer. There's a

50:27

page about our impact campaign where

50:29

you can either put in a

50:31

request for a screening. If you

50:33

have, you know, we're always partnering

50:35

with folks. So if there's folks,

50:37

places that you think it should

50:39

maybe come and be shown. There's

50:41

also a donation page. We're always

50:43

raising money to keep the ball

50:45

rolling, keep the impact campaign going.

50:47

So inheritance the film.com. is the

50:49

best place to find it. Wonderful.

50:51

Well, thank you everybody out there

50:53

for listening as well. Please, this

50:55

is a great one. This is

50:57

my goal with every episode. It's

51:00

something actionable that you can share

51:02

with people and that you can

51:04

tell people about that will be.

51:06

If, oh, let me take a

51:08

minute here to highlight our charity

51:10

of the month for December, our

51:12

charity that we're focused on is

51:14

the Prince Edward Island Transgender Network,

51:16

which you can follow at PEITN.com.

51:18

They're helping the Prince Edward Island

51:20

and surrounding areas up in Canada.

51:22

I think I got, I think

51:24

I started researching Prince Edward Island

51:26

because we're doing that, Dallin Rowe

51:28

and I are doing that rewatch

51:30

for the patrons on the Patreon

51:32

channel about and with an E

51:34

and how that deals with trauma

51:36

and social issues of that time.

51:38

Anyway, but having done some research

51:40

there, they're doing a lot of

51:42

work with advocacy and providing real

51:44

services and support to transgender individuals

51:46

who live in that area. So

51:48

you can check them out. And

51:50

as always with our charities of

51:52

focus, if you know, You do

51:54

choose to become a patron of

51:56

the show to support the Broken

51:58

Brain. Anybody who is a... member

52:00

half of your your month each

52:02

month will go towards the charity

52:05

of the in in the

52:07

month that you joined as

52:09

long as you as to be

52:11

a member. Plus you get

52:13

the you get the bonus materials.

52:15

Or once again, go to again

52:17

go to to get involved directly

52:19

with them as well. them as

52:21

well so and yeah once again Matt once

52:23

again, Matt, thank you so

52:25

much. It's been a joy

52:27

and a pleasure to be

52:29

able to enjoyed here. here. for

52:51

listening to the to the

52:53

Cortemperts To listen to

52:55

more Quartempart more Cortemperts shows, .com.