0:00

Hey everyone, quick note, our

0:02

charity of focus this month

0:04

is the Because Organization. You

0:06

can go to becauseorganization.org to

0:08

learn more about and participate

0:10

with this wonderful charity based

0:12

in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania that's working

0:14

with survivors and victims of human

0:16

trafficking, particularly those who have gotten

0:18

out of those situations and

0:21

are now building and rebuilding their

0:23

lives. The aftercare portion of this

0:26

huge problem is something that is often

0:28

neglected and not talked about quite

0:31

as much as the actual existence of trafficking.

0:33

So go to becauseorganization.org

0:36

once again to learn more about them and

0:38

get involved in helping this cause. The

0:40

Broken Brand. Recording

0:55

in progress. Welcome, welcome.

0:57

Everyone who is there out there

0:59

with us now, you're not with

1:03

us now, but you're with us in spirit now

1:05

and you're with us in ears in actual now.

1:07

So there we go. I get emails from people

1:09

that are like, Hey, do you want to see

1:12

so and so, whether it's a publisher or whether

1:14

it's, you know, I often get that as a

1:16

podcast host and there, you know, I often have

1:18

the reaction of, Oh, cool. That's usually my reaction.

1:20

This one was like, Whoa, cool. So there, yeah,

1:23

just to get you ready for

1:25

that. I'm joined

1:28

today by Anna Housley Juster,

1:30

who is an early childhood

1:32

education consultant, mental health clinician,

1:35

and the former content director

1:38

of Sesame Street. Right. And

1:41

we're here to talk about amongst, you

1:43

know, various things of your expertise, but

1:45

also your children's book, how

1:47

to train your amygdala, which I've

1:50

been, you know, you're

1:52

so kind to let me have a digital

1:54

copy that I've been reading. And I'm

1:57

really fascinated by how it

1:59

presents things. for children, I

2:01

just can't, I don't know, can't wait to get into

2:03

it. So Dr. Juster, thank you so much for being

2:05

here. Thank you so much

2:07

for having me. So I'm excited to be here. First

2:11

of all, let's tell people

2:13

a little bit about yourself, maybe

2:16

beyond just, you know, my little bio and

2:19

you know, what led you to the work that you're

2:21

doing now. So I

2:24

have been fascinated by kids and how

2:26

they learned for a long time and

2:28

every job I've ever had for the last 25 plus years,

2:31

including maybe babysitting when I was a

2:33

teenager, involved children.

2:37

And I decided maybe when I was 10

2:39

or 11 that I wanted to

2:41

work at Sesame Street because I was

2:43

only allowed to watch PBS for two

2:45

hours a day until like an embarrassingly

2:48

old age when it was no

2:51

longer cool to be doing that. But

2:53

I watched Sesame Street long enough to appreciate

2:55

the adult humor and what

2:57

it was doing for like the three and four year old

2:59

kids. So I made it like a goal of mine to

3:01

work there and then was able to do that. Went

3:04

to New York for graduate school, interned there, freelance

3:06

there and then ended up staying there for seven

3:08

years full time. And

3:11

then when I moved to Boston from New

3:13

York, I worked at Boston Children's Museum. So

3:15

I've always also been really interested in play

3:18

and learning and the intersection there. Way

3:22

back taught Head Start, as you and I were talking

3:24

about earlier, that was my first job out of college

3:26

before I moved to New York. And

3:29

now I years later am in

3:31

mental health. I worked at a community mental

3:33

health center for many years and now I'm

3:36

in private practice, but I maintain my strong

3:38

interest in children play and learning and do

3:40

a lot of teacher professional development

3:43

at that intersection of education

3:45

and mental health. Yeah, I was

3:47

able to work with Head Start in Myari

3:49

too. And that was actually one of the

3:52

things that leaped off your bio where I was

3:54

like, oh cool, that's such good

3:57

kind of programming. And for me...

4:00

that availability and

4:03

access to care are two big values that

4:05

I have that I think are very important.

4:08

And so when I saw just in tandem

4:10

here Head Start and also Sesame Street because

4:14

I'm a huge fan of not only

4:16

the actual system, I grew up watching

4:18

it like probably everybody did, but

4:21

also just as a belief of like a free

4:27

opportunity for childhood education

4:30

and whether people know it or

4:33

not a lot of emotional and

4:35

psychological education, you know, as well

4:37

as literacy and things like that and just that being

4:40

such an equalizer across socio

4:43

income status and just those

4:45

kinds of things and of course Head Start catering

4:47

to those who you know have

4:49

a great degree of need financially and are able

4:51

to get free services for their kids and the

4:53

good that it does so. So there's two really

4:56

big things that lept out to me. Yes,

5:00

absolutely. I agree. That was

5:02

one of the reasons that's one of the reasons I

5:04

was drawn to both jobs. I'm

5:08

also really always very interested

5:10

when you have people who are clinicians and you

5:13

were going through becoming and getting into mental health

5:15

while you already were at Sesame Street as you

5:17

were learning that right? Is that true

5:19

or did you come there after becoming a clinician? No,

5:22

I was I when I was

5:24

at Sesame, my background was I had had

5:26

a master's degree from Columbia Teachers College in

5:29

developmental psychology and I was at

5:32

Sesame Street working on a PhD

5:34

at NYU after that in early

5:36

childhood elementary education. So my background

5:38

is really an informal and

5:41

formal early childhood elementary

5:43

ed and like

5:45

basically the through line is how do

5:47

you create compelling education whether that's in

5:49

the classroom or through children's media or

5:52

developing curriculum for other teachers to

5:54

use. It wasn't until I was

5:56

actually at Boston Children's Museum doing

5:58

a lot of engaging. in the community in

6:01

various areas in Boston and working with a

6:03

lot of social service

6:05

agencies that I realized I missed

6:07

being one-on-one with kids or at

6:09

least I had gotten so programmatic

6:13

like a step removed from

6:15

the direct work with children and families

6:17

I ended up going back and

6:19

doing a third graduate degree in clinical social

6:21

work and that's what brought

6:23

me into this intersection that I'm at now so

6:25

I've been but I've been really mostly focusing on

6:27

mental health for the last eight

6:29

years or so yeah

6:32

that's where I'm always intrigued by people

6:34

who have psychological educations and

6:36

mental health kind of kind of

6:38

connections as well obviously just I

6:40

could put a period at the end of that sentence

6:43

obviously I'm fascinated by that because I work in the

6:45

field and do this show but I am

6:48

but I'll put a comma instead and

6:50

say I'm always intrigued by people who

6:52

have a very job experience there's so

6:54

many of us out there that are

6:56

like either you know 90

6:58

to 100 percent always been in mental

7:00

health and I was

7:02

lucky enough to have kind of a

7:05

little diversion into education technical college education

7:07

and some of that community resource stuff

7:10

and so I look at that and look at

7:12

the times where I didn't just work with therapists

7:15

and how valuable that is if that

7:17

makes sense and yeah having a background

7:19

of content creation I'm I'm curious about

7:22

the relationship of your mental

7:24

health expertise and how

7:26

maybe that informed content direction and then

7:28

vice versa how your your experience as

7:30

a content director now you know maybe

7:33

impacts the way that you work with people that's

7:37

such a good question I I would

7:40

say it's also the flip I doubt that

7:42

I know what it's like to work with

7:44

people who really understand psychology from a mental

7:46

health standpoint I sometimes wish that those

7:48

of us in that field were infused into

7:50

every other area because

7:54

imagine if they're like in therapists to yeah

7:56

like right like I mean if you're sitting

7:58

around like a giant conference room table and

8:00

you have a few of the people in

8:02

the room that can

8:04

sit with their feelings and

8:07

sit with other people's discomfort and really

8:09

like figure out how to problem solve,

8:12

that is very powerful skill right

8:14

there. So

8:17

I always had my foot in the door

8:19

of social emotional development because I was in

8:21

this developmental psych field. And so when I

8:24

was working on content development for Sesame, I

8:26

was always thinking about the whole child, which

8:29

is cognitive, social,

8:31

emotional, and physical domains of

8:33

development. So I was

8:35

always thinking about how to help kids express

8:38

themselves, build self confidence, interpersonal

8:40

and intrapersonal skill development.

8:43

But it wasn't until I

8:46

was studying clinical mental

8:48

health that I understood how you would

8:50

determine the type

8:52

of anxiety a child is managing and what

8:54

you do about that exact thing. From

8:57

an intervention standpoint. And

8:59

then when I think about what it means

9:01

to do content development, I think with young

9:04

kids, that's basically just creating compelling ideas

9:07

and stories. And

9:09

that's been a through line because I

9:12

do a ton of play therapy,

9:14

pretend play work, displacement onto stuffed

9:16

animals with young kids. You

9:19

know, we're always creating the stories

9:22

and also dissecting stories

9:24

that you're making up about yourself that

9:27

might not be true. So I

9:29

think the through line is sort of play and

9:32

making it fun, even

9:34

hard things. Sesame

9:37

tackles very hard things. I

9:39

was working there on September 11th, actually of 2001. And

9:43

so we created these four response episodes

9:45

about the attacks on

9:48

the World Trade Center. And it's really,

9:50

really important, deep, difficult

9:53

content. But you're doing

9:55

it in a way that's accessible and fun and

9:57

playful for kids. And that's what I try to

9:59

do in my practice. I think that's has

10:02

stayed the same. How

10:04

do you approach that in a like, meeting

10:08

writers room? I mean, when you are approaching,

10:10

how do we, cause

10:12

famously, and I don't

10:14

remember how old I was, I don't

10:16

remember when Mr. Hooper died, but

10:19

that decision to have Mr. Hooper die

10:21

on the show instead of just move

10:23

away, or the

10:25

just, some of those kinds of things when

10:27

they deal with just heavy

10:29

things. I remember that as

10:31

a kid being really important. But

10:34

yeah, how do you, so how do you approach that? How are we gonna

10:36

talk about 9-11 to kids? And

10:39

by the way, right, this is still in the traumatic

10:41

stage that we're all in when it happened too,

10:44

you know, and especially as a New York resident

10:46

as well at the time, right? I

10:50

mean, it was hard. And I also think it was

10:52

therapeutic for all of us to be taking an action

10:54

of some sort because sitting, I mean, New York is

10:56

all about rebuilding an action. Part

11:00

of myself still lives, I mean, my heart kind

11:02

of still is in New York. I love Boston, but when

11:06

I talk about New York, you'll tell how

11:08

passionate I am. How do you like it?

11:10

So I think that New York is a

11:13

place of rebuilding and regeneration and hope. And

11:17

we came at it that way,

11:20

working with health, mental

11:22

health experts actually, so when I was a

11:25

director of content, you're in a team of

11:27

education and research that is pulling from lots

11:29

of other resources. We're not just, you know, we

11:31

weren't just isolated in our own bubble, trying to

11:33

figure it out. We'd be reaching out

11:35

to people and figuring out how to get the messaging right.

11:38

Every script review takes a good amount of

11:41

time and working with the writers about,

11:43

you know, trying to figure out how to make sure we do it

11:45

as well as possible and with honesty. So

11:48

like what you just asked about with Mr. Hooper,

11:50

I think is true of how I try to

11:52

help parents now talk

11:54

to their kids. Generally,

11:57

children are capable of understanding a lot more than

11:59

what we do. we maybe give them credit

12:01

for and the end

12:04

is give them answer

12:06

their questions as honestly as possible and stop at

12:08

the end of their question. Very

12:11

important. Keep giving more

12:13

that's going to create anxiety.

12:16

If they're not asking for it, maybe you don't have

12:18

to go there. If they are asking, my

12:21

objective with working with kids directly and

12:23

with parents and teachers is to try

12:26

to help people respond as accurately

12:28

and honestly as possible because

12:30

you always want to keep building trust over time so

12:32

that they'll come to you the next

12:35

time that they have a question about something. Yeah,

12:37

I find I think of it as knowing when

12:40

to put a period at the end of a

12:42

sentence or a question mark and then actually waiting

12:44

instead of starting another one. Why

12:46

would you do that? Here's why I think you would do that. I

12:49

think just for communication in general. That's

12:54

a huge thing with kids because and

12:56

this is I think some of the

12:58

power of the approach you're talking about

13:00

is that kids are not used to

13:03

being listened to or related

13:05

to in that

13:08

way and you talk about using some

13:10

of those maybe

13:12

and I'll be

13:14

interested your thought about this term,

13:16

less directive strategies. I think of play therapy

13:18

and I guess there's that pure play therapy

13:21

that is 100% search for

13:24

dibs, non-directive at all and

13:26

then there's I think mostly

13:28

there's a little bit of

13:30

mixture there. But

13:32

anyway, it's a less directive to allow them

13:34

to actually have a voice and experiment. Is

13:36

that some of your thoughts? I

13:39

think that's right. I mean, I think it's easier

13:41

usually to talk about what

13:44

a toy is feeling initially than it is

13:46

to talk about how you're feeling. So like

13:48

the use of that displacement onto little,

13:52

I have like 30 stuffed animals

13:54

in my office or something like so many of them

13:56

to choose from that. I think

13:58

that's just feel safer. think

16:00

so, but thanks for all your

16:02

energy. And then and so in

16:04

a way, right, like there's this

16:06

like, I wanted the book

16:09

to feature the amygdala in a

16:11

very lovable way and

16:13

empathetically. Because a

16:15

lot of books about anxiety for kids talk

16:18

about a scary monster that you kind of

16:21

have to banish from yourself, right? Like, which

16:24

I appreciate, because when you're doing sort

16:26

of maybe cognitive restructuring, you

16:29

really are trying to make worry

16:31

smaller and kind of banish it

16:34

from your thoughts. And that

16:36

works. And though I also believe

16:38

that there's no bad parts of kids. And

16:41

so if it's hard for a child to sit with

16:43

like, there's this scary part of me that's bad

16:46

and angry, and gets me in

16:48

trouble, and now I also need to be mad at

16:50

it and banish it and push it away. So I

16:52

was looking for love and empathy.

16:55

So I wanted the character to

16:57

look cuddly and

17:00

friendly, but overzealous.

17:03

Like the way Grover is, it shows, this

17:05

character with no gender, it almost just said he,

17:07

which I tend to do. The

17:09

amygdala shows up like ready to save the day,

17:13

makes a mistake halfway through the book. And

17:16

then is sheepish, like the way

17:18

that Grover is, is I have

17:21

to tell you something else about myself. Sometimes

17:24

I can be a little

17:26

sensitive and I might

17:28

need your help. And then the rest of

17:30

the story is about how to be helpful.

17:32

But I wanted alignment and empathy and teamwork,

17:34

as opposed to scary monster

17:36

to kind of be banished out

17:39

of the self. Yeah.

17:41

I think that's more in keeping

17:43

with the practice of therapy and

17:45

things nowadays when we're talking about

17:47

like take IFS or even EMDR

17:50

and some of those. I

17:52

look at it that you've

17:55

got kind of over here in like

17:57

the cognitive behavioral and then all the

17:59

subsets of rational motive. of dialectical behavioral,

18:01

all the behavioral stuff. I

18:03

think there's a wealth of skills that we

18:05

pull from that. And it's different to say,

18:08

I need skills to mitigate my anxiety responses,

18:10

but then I can turn and love myself

18:12

and the emotional parts of me that are

18:15

manifesting it. So I mean, I really

18:17

like that. Also medically,

18:20

it's always interesting to me the

18:22

way we still struggle to view

18:24

psychological health as part of our

18:26

overall health. I don't know

18:28

of a cardiologist who says, well, your heart's trying

18:30

to kill you because it's a big stupid jerk.

18:35

It's more like you have a heart condition, right? Let's

18:37

try to treat your heart so it works like a

18:39

heart should. And

18:41

to say like I'm having manifestations of anxiety

18:44

and things for a minute. It's like, oh,

18:46

my stupid brain, right? Right, I know. We

18:48

kind of demonize it in some way. I

18:50

think it's just because of fear. I

18:53

think we have less familiarity and

18:55

comfort broadly. As

18:57

a human species, understanding

19:00

neurological function. And so if

19:02

it's threatening, it's like, I just don't even

19:05

wanna go there. I mean, we literally do

19:07

stop teaching kids about their anatomy at the

19:09

collarbone up. Every three

19:11

or three year old knows

19:14

what their heart is. They know they can

19:16

feel it. They could feel their pulse. They

19:18

know if they run fast, that's good for

19:20

their heart. They can feel that increase. They

19:22

know their muscles keep them upright. They know

19:24

they have bones because they can actually touch,

19:26

you can touch them. I

19:29

think that science is still catching up with

19:31

human evolution. And then neuroscience is still catching

19:33

up with science. And then the rest of

19:35

the world is still catching up with the

19:37

neuroscientists. And so one of my hopes for

19:40

the book is that why

19:42

can't three year and four or five, six,

19:44

seven year olds know the word amygdala? It's just not

19:47

that difficult from many other words that

19:49

they learn like rectangle or, you

19:51

know. I remember we were at

19:53

Sesame, I had this huge conversation about math, the shapes

19:56

because literally some

19:58

people were like, well, can we teach? really young

20:00

kids about the octagon, it's

20:04

a more complicated shape. And all of us

20:06

were just thinking, not really, like it has

20:08

more sides. But

20:10

the word is not that much. It's just

20:12

that we don't talk about it that much

20:14

as adults. And so we're used to these

20:16

basic geometric shapes. Let's broaden that range. I

20:18

think it's the same with parts

20:21

of the body. If you can recognize

20:23

that you have this alarm system in your

20:25

brain, and you can say the word to

20:28

tell someone what you think is going on,

20:30

you're already a step closer to regulating because

20:32

you're using different parts of the

20:34

brain to talk and think

20:36

about the alarm system in your brain. That

20:39

would be a really important place

20:41

to get to, I think, with how

20:43

we think about early childhood, what they

20:46

can understand, what young kids can understand. Well,

20:48

and you look at how young kids

20:50

are able to grasp on to, oh,

20:52

I don't know, the different evolutionary stages

20:55

of Charmander, for example, or something like

20:57

that. It's a vast amount

21:00

of either lore or ways that complex games

21:02

work. And like, that was a Pokemon. If

21:04

anyone out there doesn't recognize Pokemon, I'm not

21:06

sure if you're at the right place, but

21:09

I have to be

21:11

transparent. I did not know the reference right away.

21:14

I am familiar with Pokemon. I

21:16

just wanted to

21:19

sound cool. Do Pokemon

21:22

go where kids were riding on their,

21:24

it's kind of fine. Oh yeah, no, I think

21:26

so. And then there's a lot of, well, and

21:28

one of the interesting things about, I'll go into

21:30

this, like the modern, some

21:33

of the modern video game approaches is that they're

21:35

very much oriented. And I

21:37

think Pokemon always was, but now

21:39

game gamifying it and the

21:42

modern video game approach and things with Pokemon go

21:44

and things, it's very much as close as possible

21:46

to saying like, it's

21:49

like, can I go out and find

21:51

Pikachu in the world, a Pikachu? And

21:53

it's like, you know, just like, could

21:55

I act like, you know, that they

21:57

would if Pokemon were real? And then

21:59

to And then, cause some of the games even

22:01

have like, you got to tend to them and train

22:03

them and feed them and all kinds of things, right?

22:05

That, that actually tie in with being a nurturing kind

22:08

of a kind of a person. And so

22:12

yeah, so it's, yeah, it's interesting. And

22:14

that leads into, I was, as you were talking, I wanted

22:17

to, I think we take

22:19

for granted cause we hear so much, there's

22:21

such a level of psychological awareness we kind

22:23

of assume people have, um,

22:25

that we hear amygdala thrown around a lot

22:27

in the adult world nowadays, I think at

22:30

least maybe I'm biased cause

22:32

of my world, but maybe,

22:34

could you tell everybody a little bit about

22:36

why you picked though the amygdala

22:38

and what that means and what it represents

22:40

and why it's sort of the perfect gateway

22:43

for this kind of lessons for kids? So

22:46

I agree with you. There's a lot of talk

22:48

about this online right now with the fight, flight,

22:50

freeze response. And there's a lot out there about

22:52

how to like retrain your amygdala, et cetera. I

22:55

think it's mostly for adults. I'm not sure how much

22:57

of it is trickling down. And

23:00

I think that, um,

23:03

well that's how that is true. But

23:06

I was into my third graduate degree as

23:08

a full adult before I was taught about

23:14

like the fact that you could actually pay

23:16

attention to what that would be like in

23:18

your body and then change

23:20

thoughts to change feelings and behaviors.

23:22

For example, like just the notion

23:24

that that with the body, and

23:27

parts of the brain, you can

23:29

control other parts of your brain

23:31

with positive outcome.

23:36

I think is, I mean, I didn't, I

23:38

didn't know for so long as a headstart

23:40

teacher, as a, as a curriculum developer, I

23:42

didn't really think about what that meant. And

23:44

once it clicked in my own self,

23:48

I thought everybody has to know this. I

23:51

felt like I had some sort of amazing

23:54

secret. Like if someone had

23:56

just told me that when I was 14 or 15. At

24:00

which point I actually had a therapist, but she didn't tell

24:02

me that. It would have been.

24:06

Yeah, it's funny because even just looking back

24:08

in time, as you're putting it, not that

24:10

far, I didn't hear therapists talking

24:12

about it. I was working in the mental

24:14

health field and working around as you were

24:16

education stuff, hearing, it's not that nobody knew

24:18

about it, but people didn't really talk about

24:20

it. I think we're still,

24:23

like I said, we still struggle, but we've

24:25

seen a lot happen even within the last

24:27

10 to 20 years around

24:30

understanding and treating mental health as,

24:32

this is why I don't like

24:34

calling, I don't like the

24:36

differentiation people are like, oh, is this, I get

24:38

my physical health and my mental

24:40

health. I don't like that because I like

24:42

to just say my health, right, because mental

24:45

is physical. The body does contain the brain

24:47

as well as the amygdala. Exactly,

24:50

right. So what I was thinking, what I wanna say, well,

24:53

first of all, it wasn't until the 1990s that

24:56

we had the FMRI, Right.

24:59

where they could really look at function and you

25:01

could understand. So I think what's happening is that

25:04

basically you and I in the field are

25:06

immersed in this all the time, but

25:09

a parent who is

25:11

just trying to raise their child, et cetera,

25:13

wouldn't necessarily have access to this because it's

25:15

only 30 years into, like

25:18

the deep understanding of the function. So everyone's

25:20

just playing catch up. And my

25:22

hope is that at some point, it's much more

25:24

accessible and equitable. So to

25:27

your original question, the reason I picked the amygdala

25:29

is A, it is a very fun

25:31

word to say, and I like playful legs. Yes.

25:35

And I was doing this work in my practice

25:37

with like three and four year olds that would,

25:40

the word would roll off their tongue as if they

25:42

were saying any other word. And they would say to

25:44

a parent, parents would

25:46

email me and say, so my child is

25:48

four is teaching me about my

25:50

amygdala. So

25:53

I'm not sure what you're doing,

25:56

but something's working as far as at least slowing down

25:58

the escalations that are happening. in the house because

26:00

we seem to be having a different conversation today

26:03

than we were having, you know, four weeks ago.

26:06

And during COVID I was

26:08

at a

26:11

community mental health center doing

26:13

a lot of telehealth. I mean, cause

26:15

everybody was, we were all online and

26:17

it was always looking

26:19

for ways to keep it. You know,

26:21

you're trying to engage a six year

26:23

old who's running around their apartment. Yeah,

26:26

it was hardest with kids. Yeah. That

26:28

was that cause they're like gone. There's

26:30

I've had clatters to the floor. You're,

26:32

you're like on the bathroom floor, looking up

26:35

at the base of a toilet. You are

26:37

in a closet. You're under a bed. You're

26:39

getting good insight, you know, into that you

26:42

wouldn't otherwise have. And also

26:44

it was kind of like a big on a roller coaster

26:46

ride. Cause I was like, they would run with it. And

26:48

then, oh my God, where are we going? And

26:51

at some point I was talking to

26:53

a child who had her cat on

26:55

her lap and she was petting her

26:57

cat as we were basically doing psychoeducation

26:59

in our session together. And she was

27:01

calming her cat as I was

27:03

telling her about the, what doing the work

27:05

of what the amygdala is doing in

27:08

the brain. And I was like, Oh, it's,

27:10

you know, it's kind of like you're training

27:12

your cat. You can train your amygdala so

27:14

that when your mom says that you

27:17

don't go right into fight flight freeze

27:19

response. So for anyone who's listening, who,

27:21

who doesn't know this, the amygdala is

27:23

the usual suspect of the, the

27:26

limbic sim systems, emotional brains, threat

27:28

response, and it, and it's automatic.

27:30

So it's the fast track fear.

27:33

Uh, signals go to the amygdala, the

27:37

splits second fractions of a second from

27:39

a smell, something you see a car

27:41

speeding down the road as the example

27:43

in the book and

27:46

your muscles stop moving before you have

27:48

conscious thought that there is anything, any

27:50

reason to stop. And we need

27:52

this. Uh, we would not

27:54

survive without it. And, and It

28:00

is the primary suspect when our brains

28:03

continue to think that there's a line charging

28:05

at us, but all we're trying to do

28:07

is raise our hand during circle time in

28:09

preschool. Especially if

28:11

you have chronic stress or

28:14

toxic stress levels and you're in

28:16

constant sort of fear threat response

28:18

mode or you have a traumatic

28:20

situation where the event has overwhelmed

28:22

the brain and body's ability to

28:24

cope, it's going to

28:26

be more likely that if a child takes

28:29

your toy or throws a toy

28:31

at you or if a teacher looks

28:33

at you in a way that your

28:35

brain immediately interprets as threatening, you're going

28:37

to have only three choices in

28:40

that moment and that is to freeze in place,

28:42

run away out of the classroom or

28:45

fight back. That's how you get so many

28:47

of the behaviors today that are

28:50

making it really hard to be a preschool

28:52

teacher, more

28:54

fighting, more climbing on

28:56

furniture, swearing in anger,

28:59

I mean everything that we're hearing about

29:01

that's happening. I

29:03

hear it discussed more and more and I

29:06

think it started in domestic violence circles and

29:08

kind of has sort of making its way

29:11

out, which is the fawning response or

29:13

acquiescing as a response which I mean, you

29:15

say it different ways. It could be one

29:17

of the big f words or it could

29:19

be a subset, it doesn't matter. But

29:22

that too of seeing and

29:25

I think that with kids, particularly with

29:27

girls, that kind of

29:29

behavior, the being quiet or acquiescing

29:31

are both thought of as high

29:33

value behaviors. I mean, a

29:35

lot of elementary school is being taught how to stand

29:38

still and shut up and there's

29:40

value to knowing how to stand in a

29:42

line. But then again, this

29:45

is me being a little snarky and

29:47

playful, but I've often thought

29:49

that the more rigid, the rigidity, the

29:51

rigidity, there we go, of

29:53

how much in children programming, children's

29:56

treatment, even in schools sometimes, that it's like, hey,

29:58

we've got to walk in the line and

30:00

you can't talk at all, even at a

30:02

whisper, and you can't really, you

30:05

know, don't interact with the other line, the other

30:07

class we come through until we get here and

30:09

your hands should be this way. And the only

30:11

thing I've seen that's really equitable in the adult

30:14

world is when I worked with a substance abuse

30:16

program and would go visit people in the jail.

30:18

That was how they would get from pod to

30:20

pod in the jails. And so I think, you

30:23

know, weighing out and being careful of what are

30:25

we teaching? What's the line between good social

30:27

behavior and you're not supposed

30:30

to express yourself. Stop it. That's really unpleasant

30:32

when you, when you express yourself. I

30:36

100% agree. I think

30:39

that that just basically comes down

30:41

to the locus of control, right?

30:44

So it basically,

30:48

if adults in a space feel

30:52

threatened, the

30:54

question becomes why

30:57

and what are you going to do about

30:59

it? Because if you feel threatened and you

31:01

think that by controlling everything

31:04

around you to the point where

31:06

you have ants marching and those

31:08

kids are not being given this,

31:10

the lot learning intrinsically

31:14

why to be quiet, like,

31:16

so you have to have a

31:19

motivation system that makes sense in the brain.

31:22

And my, my own fear about when

31:24

things get so controlled like that is

31:26

that I think it disrupts the actual

31:28

way that motivation works in the brain.

31:30

Because the real reason why you'd want

31:32

to be quiet in the hall is

31:35

because you actually care that you don't

31:37

want to disturb your, your friend who's

31:39

in that class and is trying to

31:41

take a test. But

31:43

if it becomes some arbitrary thing of just

31:46

stay in your line and then you earn

31:48

extra screen time at the end of the

31:50

day in some sort of very rigid behavioral

31:55

modification plan, I don't

31:58

know if that's what you learn. I think you

32:00

just basically learn it's Pavlovian.

32:03

It's like, if I walk in this line,

32:06

I get my screen time. But

32:09

what happens outside this system

32:12

where I don't have screen time is something

32:14

I'm looking forward to. Do

32:18

I care about the person next to me when

32:20

I'm also just out in my community, et cetera,

32:22

if I taught that the only reason to walk

32:24

in this line is because it's what I'm told

32:26

to do? So I think

32:28

we just have to be really careful about

32:30

thinking about where the rules come from.

32:33

And if they are based in threat, that's

32:36

where you start the work. In

32:39

the adult brain, right? The adult needs to think,

32:43

why am I feeling threatened in this moment? And what

32:45

can I do in myself to manage that first? And

32:47

does it have to be that I'm looking for control

32:49

in all of these other ways? And

32:52

teaching that, right? And that's the training

32:54

that happens. And just like

32:56

anything that has to do with childhood interventions,

32:59

we're training the adults of tomorrow, so

33:01

to speak, right? Because

33:04

they're the ones that are gonna grow up and they'll

33:07

have whatever training we give them and then

33:09

they'll act however they act. So yeah, I

33:11

really, these is one of the things that

33:13

does give me hope for the future. And

33:16

this is one of the reasons why I tend

33:18

to think that kids nowadays are maybe a little smarter

33:20

than some of us were when we were kids

33:22

because they're more informed. And they

33:24

are, if we trust them, as you put it, to

33:26

take that in. I like

33:28

your emphasis on internal

33:31

physical recognition. And this goes into the physical tie-in

33:33

of what we usually mean when we say the

33:35

body and actually incorporate it in the brain's part

33:37

of the body. So it's gonna make you feel

33:40

this. You might feel that, you might feel this.

33:45

Not just on that sensory emotional level,

33:47

but also, I don't know

33:49

why I have this little ache or pain

33:51

as it influenced by this stress level and

33:53

things. But I like how, it

33:56

seems to me like that's one of the things that

33:59

you're trying to teach is not. just what to do

34:01

when there's anxiety about how to really recognize what type

34:03

of feelings I'm having, right? Yeah,

34:05

I mean, there's a part of the book at the back

34:08

where the amygdala has written this amygdala

34:10

training manual. It's like the last couple

34:12

pages are for kids to have extra

34:14

content ideas. And then

34:17

there's a parent pay a parent caregiver

34:19

teacher counselor page. One of

34:21

the things that the amygdala calls out from the

34:23

amygdala's perspective is, hey, guess what? The

34:25

reason why you get nauseous when

34:28

I am going

34:30

into alarm phase is that I send

34:32

these quick tiny messages, these fast messages

34:35

to your to send the blood away

34:37

from your stomach into the big muscles

34:39

because I think you're getting ready to

34:41

fight or run

34:43

away. And that feeling

34:47

is the blood leaving your in your in

34:49

your abdomen and it doesn't feel good. It

34:51

feels weird. And you say, I'm nauseous. I'm

34:53

so worried. Guess what? If you take deep

34:55

breaths into the abdomen and you use the

34:57

strategies that you know you can use, you

34:59

can make that nauseous feeling go away. Because

35:02

you're calming me down. And

35:04

the body sends blood back into your

35:06

into your abdomen. So I mean, just

35:08

that science alone, I think is very

35:10

therapeutic because knowing what's happening

35:14

increases a sense of control, especially

35:16

if there's something you can do about it. But

35:19

if you just get waves of nauseous and

35:22

you think you might be sick, but you

35:24

don't know, and it's like, is this really

35:26

what's happening to me? That's feels very out

35:28

of control. And we know that

35:31

when there's a feeling of being out of control,

35:34

that tends to increase anxiety

35:36

and you can get stuck in a loop. So

35:39

I'm hoping that these ideas help kids not

35:41

get stuck in loops. Yeah. And then we

35:43

reach out for control either internally or externally.

35:45

And that that type of control, almost like

35:47

a self medication of control is, I think

35:49

that's one of the most common forms of

35:52

of self coping that can go

35:54

in an unhealthy way. As

35:57

an adult, it looks very much different. But as a

35:59

kid, And then it triggers

36:01

the response in adults, which is usually

36:04

begins and ends with knock it off. Knock

36:06

it off. Why are you acting out? You

36:08

know, well, cause I feel out of control

36:10

and the blood's diverted from my stomach. And,

36:13

you know, could be a good answer.

36:15

The adult might be like, oh, maybe I should, maybe I should

36:17

listen to you. But we

36:19

don't have that vocabulary. In fact,

36:22

we don't have that vocabulary oftentimes

36:24

to say, oh, I think,

36:27

you know, my, I have a hormonal imbalance

36:29

and blood distribution and things is off because

36:31

my fight or flight response is triggering

36:34

at maybe an externally inappropriate

36:36

time that doesn't as disproportionate

36:38

for reality. I'm

36:40

just picturing for some reason, suddenly like

36:42

a New Yorker cartoon that would be

36:45

like everyone's stuck in traffic. So it's

36:47

like the BQE or here in Boston,

36:49

it's like route 90 at rush hour

36:51

and everyone is just super pissed off

36:54

clearly. And instead of like swearing out

36:56

the window, it was like, I just

36:58

want you to understand that's what's happening to me right

37:01

now is that my threat response is triggered because I

37:03

wasn't planning on sitting in traffic all this time. And

37:05

the only thing my brain and body know how to

37:07

do is fight, freeze or run away. But I can't

37:09

do any of those things because I'm stuck in the

37:11

front seat of my car. It would be like this

37:13

monologue. This paragraph, right? Maybe all of you

37:16

just like stopped. Who's

37:18

this person? Yeah, totally. I mean,

37:20

if we could get to the point where that's actually some

37:22

of how we talk, there would be less conflict. It's

37:25

a basic act, I think. I'm

37:28

curious, some of your thoughts about the relationship of shame

37:30

too. Cause the first thing that came to my mind

37:32

when you said that was, and also maybe less shame,

37:34

not just conflict. Yeah,

37:36

so I love

37:39

Brene Brown on this. I use two

37:42

things with kids all the time that

37:44

I learned from her. One is that

37:46

shame, so shame is I'm bad.

37:50

I'll never be good. And there's

37:53

something fundamentally wrong with me. And what I try

37:55

to help kids do is figure out what they

37:57

regret. And if

37:59

you go into... threat because you can take

38:01

an action on regret and it's not

38:03

it's a single event and it's not

38:05

something that's about you fundamentally pervasive or

38:07

permanent right so

38:11

what I try to help kids do is

38:13

if you know you went into threat response

38:15

mode and you screamed something back at your

38:17

parents that they were not

38:19

excited about or

38:21

the flip of that when parents

38:24

go into fight, fight, freeze response

38:26

mode and they're screaming back no one's listening

38:29

anymore it's just all survival mode there's

38:32

never it's never too late to come

38:34

back to that conversation days

38:36

or even weeks later and say I

38:41

wasn't actually angry I was

38:44

scared the primary

38:46

the primary emotion is fear and

38:49

I want you to know that the reason I was

38:51

scared and I regret what I said or did but

38:53

the reason I was scared is because I love you

38:55

so much and my

38:58

brain went into survival mode because I was so

39:00

scared that something was happening with you that I

39:02

couldn't control and

39:05

then you're mixing the understanding of what's happening

39:07

neurologically and in the body in

39:09

the body and brain and you're regretting

39:11

a certain thing and

39:14

you're healing in that sort of rupture

39:16

and repair pattern which

39:18

is really important for for therapy overall and for

39:20

healing in relationships.

39:26

Well it's vital things for

39:28

for any of us to understand and and one of

39:30

the great things about having this

39:32

for children and then I really

39:34

like the adult the things for parents

39:37

and caregivers you put into is that

39:39

if we're teaching we're learning right especially

39:41

if we're teaching something

39:45

in which we have a deficit so and

39:47

then of course we're teaching for the future

39:49

as well and just basically

39:52

how it how it ripples out.

39:56

Well let me ask you what do you hope people

40:00

will take from this.

40:04

If the book is doing what you hope it will do, what

40:06

will people walk away

40:08

from with this? My

40:11

hope is that adults and kids pick

40:13

the book up together and read it

40:15

not primarily first as an intervention, but

40:17

just as a picture book. And

40:20

that you get caught up in the story

40:22

and you care about the amygdala, and you

40:25

recognize that you also have an amygdala in

40:27

your brain, and you try out the strategies,

40:30

and they end up feeling good. And

40:32

then maybe in your everyday life, if

40:35

you've practiced them enough, it actually changes

40:37

the circuitry in your brain, and

40:40

you might actually not go into threat response mode

40:42

as easily in the future. I

40:44

think it starts as just a fun shared story

40:47

together, and I hope that it then becomes a

40:49

tool. It's

40:51

really for all kids because everybody can

40:53

have this happen. And so it's not

40:55

really just for a child with anxiety

40:59

or angry outburst problems. It's really

41:01

a picture book for people, and

41:04

then it can be expanded on. If you're using it

41:07

in your clinical practice or in a circle time as

41:09

a teacher, you might

41:11

highlight some of the skills and then try to

41:13

introduce them later. But I hope it's first and

41:15

foremost a story that people

41:17

want to share together. Well,

41:20

I think it is reading it. So

41:22

I think, yeah, Czech, you're doing good in that

41:24

area. And that actually

41:26

is something that's really, really important that

41:28

comes out as I've been doing some

41:30

interviews with people over the last year

41:32

in particular, just some people talking about

41:34

activity-based therapy, obviously play therapy is one

41:36

of these, but also even

41:38

some of the modern research that's

41:41

being done into certain video games and

41:43

things, and also

41:45

I myself, I've been doing

41:47

a lot with like role-playing

41:49

games, there's like tabletop kinds of

41:52

things, and using that with not

41:54

just young people, but we're seeing more and more of

41:56

this being used for different

41:59

therapeutic interventions. But one of the things

42:01

that comes out from people I've

42:03

interviewed and a lot of

42:05

what they're researching is that a

42:07

lot of these interventions don't work if they're

42:09

oriented towards this is a game,

42:11

yeah, technically, but it'll sneakily teach you

42:13

math or whatever. Because

42:15

number one, we don't really do it. And

42:18

it's not, it doesn't get us into that learning

42:20

mode. Going back to the Pokemon, the reason

42:22

kids can learn a bunch of that is

42:24

it's fun. It's engaging. So having

42:27

a design that starts with like, this is accessible,

42:29

this is play, this is fun, and

42:31

it's healthy, right? And that can coexist.

42:33

I think that's very important. Yes. I

42:37

think that's right. There's definitely some comedy in the

42:39

story. It turns out that

42:41

the amygdala is afraid of what

42:43

it perceives as a scary monster or

42:45

dragon. And it turns out to be

42:47

a tiny kitten delivering a large cheese

42:49

pizza. And I've heard

42:52

from various people that then, so Cynthia

42:54

Cliff, who I should give a shout out to,

42:56

who's the illustrator, did a fantastic job. And

42:59

my editor, Cassie at Free Spirit

43:02

Publishing, suggested that the kittens show

43:04

up for the rest of the book. And

43:07

then the kitten becomes part of like the other illustrations. And

43:09

so one fun thing kids like to do is just look

43:11

for the kitten on all the pages. You

43:14

know, like a bait, like just a fun, almost like a

43:16

where's Waldo, like an I spy sort of a thing. So

43:19

they're really looking for it. And they think it's funny as they're

43:22

practicing the strategies and teaching the amygdala

43:24

how to be calm and working as

43:26

a team. So definitely I'm hoping that

43:28

there's some humor

43:30

and playfulness that comes out. And

43:33

because I think that play

43:35

for me is important across the

43:37

lifespan. And if we

43:40

can be playful with our kids, even

43:42

when they're going through hard things, it's

43:44

therapeutic for everybody. Absolutely. I

43:46

couldn't help but think of, especially

43:49

with you mentioning Grover before,

43:52

the monster at the end of this book, that classic

43:55

golden book, yeah,

43:58

of the advancement of Oh No. here comes a monster, here comes

44:01

a monster. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. I'm a monster.

44:03

Oh, by the way, spoiler alert for anybody out there for

44:05

grow, you know, monster at the end of this book. Yes.

44:11

That's a true classic. I mean, I actually

44:13

still have my copy of there's

44:16

a monster that's in this book that I had

44:18

when I was like, I don't know, seven

44:20

years old or something. So it's

44:24

very special. That book is very special. Yeah,

44:26

I remember reading it with my daughter with

44:29

each page where he's like building walls and

44:31

he's like, don't page on through major. And

44:33

I just remember my daughter being like, turn

44:35

it, turn it. Yeah, exactly. Which,

44:37

which is facing that yeah, facing

44:40

that same, that fear and

44:42

that, that kind of thing with

44:45

the assurance will be okay, because it is a book, but then

44:47

it gets us into that mindset. And this

44:49

is very much the same. I'm gonna let's

44:51

mention again, it's how to train your amygdala

44:53

is the name of the book. And

44:56

I want to get into where people should look

44:58

for it and things and what would be your

45:00

preference. First of all, of course, I want to

45:02

ask if you could

45:04

recommend something for

45:07

people out there to do as far as

45:09

community involvement, is there a certain way to

45:11

give back to the community, either a good

45:13

practice or a charity or nonprofit that, that

45:15

means a lot to you? Well,

45:18

so locally, I am

45:20

on the, an advisory committee for

45:22

Horizons for Homeless Children. This is

45:25

in, I'm in Massachusetts and I

45:27

love this organization. One

45:29

reason that I love what they do is they

45:31

put play spaces into

45:33

shelters, into family shelters, so that

45:35

there's a space in the shelter

45:37

where children can go. And it

45:40

is facilitated by volunteers

45:42

trained in how to support play.

45:45

So not only does it give a space

45:48

for play and learning for a child who is currently

45:51

unhoused, currently houseless, but it provides

45:53

a break for whatever caregiver or

45:56

parent is also in the space

45:58

with that child. So it's okay.

46:00

fantastic organization, Horizons for Homeless

46:02

Children. Wonderful. And where do people find that,

46:04

did you say? Online. I

46:06

mean, right now, I think it's only based

46:08

in Massachusetts, so it's my local, it's where

46:11

I give locally, my time and

46:14

donations, but they're

46:17

online, horizonsforhomelesschildren.org. Great.

46:20

Well, where can people follow

46:22

your work? And is there a preferred place

46:25

for them to find the book? So

46:28

it's on Amazon. And I also

46:30

always love to support independent bookstores.

46:33

And it is in, or

46:35

at least online available through many independent

46:37

bookstores. So I would ask at your

46:40

local bookstore, just because it's great to

46:42

support independent bookstores. It's on

46:44

Amazon. It is also available from Teacher

46:46

Created Materials, which is the publisher, although

46:48

I just heard from the publisher yesterday

46:51

that they are very low on stock,

46:53

which is a good thing. And

46:56

placed another

46:59

order from the printer. So for now, it might

47:01

be best to go on Amazon or

47:04

your local store. Great. And

47:06

what's a place where people can find

47:08

you? Is there a focal point, a

47:10

website, social media that's best to follow

47:12

your work? Yeah, so social

47:15

media is not my strength. And I'm going to

47:17

be the first to admit that. I do have

47:19

a website where I'm going to have to work

47:21

on that because it's

47:23

a problem for me.

47:26

I have to find time. That's what I have to do. So

47:29

I have a website that's just

47:31

annahousleyjuster.com. And there is a way

47:33

to contact me via

47:35

email on my website if you'd

47:38

like to reach out or

47:40

let me know how you way think about the book. I'd love to hear

47:42

from you people. Wonderful. And

47:45

let me take a minute to shout out

47:47

to everybody out there who's listening. Also, just

47:50

a couple of things out there so people

47:52

know some of the work and you've been

47:54

hearing some of the episodes that we've been doing focused

47:56

on use of play. I'll just mention that because we're

47:58

talking about that today. The

48:00

the role-playing game that we played that

48:03

was broadcast with some some other podcasters

48:05

came on and we did one Just

48:08

recently about a group of people trying

48:10

to escape from a barbecue That

48:13

turned out to take place in hell and the

48:15

right of that game is on the website You

48:17

can download free download for the guideline of writing

48:19

your own with an hour. Yeah, so

48:21

I'll have to keep you in the loop

48:23

for future We're doing a Halloween our Halloween

48:25

themed ones. We're coordinating that recording right now

48:27

So if you go to Dwight Hearst comm

48:30

that's where you can get all this stuff But if

48:32

he goes to slash RPG there's some free downloads and

48:34

and things that we're trying to do as well

48:36

as you can Look into some

48:39

of the groups therapeutic groups that I'm putting

48:41

together Currently with that

48:43

kind of stuff. So that's our

48:45

little announcement for all of you

48:47

fun brain broken

48:50

brain fans that are Always

48:53

so supportive and even if all that you can

48:55

do is just listen and let people know about

48:57

this show It's great and

48:59

really appreciate what you're doing. So and

49:02

speaking of appreciating what people are doing

49:05

Just right. I really I'm grateful for you for

49:07

writing the book. I'm really impressed with

49:10

this stuff You're doing and I think it's very

49:12

important. So I appreciate that you're out there doing

49:14

that and Thank

49:16

you so much for being here today to share this

49:18

with people Thank you

49:20

so much. I'm grateful for the opportunity. It was really

49:22

fun to speak with you today Thank

49:47

you for listening to the court and parts podcast

49:49

network to listen to more court and part shows

49:51

visit court and arts com