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Media and K and

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K. Mmm,

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I tell you what. I've

1:54

enjoyed myself amidst the holiday wassling, gorging

1:56

and gifting of the holidays, but my

1:59

diet is... has been far too deficient

2:01

in the robust flavors of jazz. Man

2:04

cannot live on jingle bells alone. Christmas

2:07

has come and gone, Hanukkah has

2:09

waved so long, and the new

2:11

year looms large. But December

2:13

isn't done, friends. There's

2:16

one Friday left, and that's

2:18

today. So that can

2:20

only mean that there's time to

2:22

open one last present, this year's final

2:24

entry into the call of Cthulhu Mystery

2:26

Program's arcane advent of Lovecraftian cinema. And

2:29

it, my dears, is a doozy. In

2:32

this episode, you'll hear showrunner Kat

2:35

Blackard, keeper of arcane lore Luke

2:37

Schramm, illustrator Jared Pope and omniverse

2:39

creative Doug Banks band together to

2:41

face down John Carpenter's In the

2:44

Mouth of Madness. It's a

2:46

film that adapts no one Lovecraftian story,

2:49

but many, holding a fractured lens

2:51

to them and reflecting a horrifying visage

2:53

upon our own world, provoking

2:55

its viewers and perhaps our

2:57

listenership tonight to question their

2:59

own reality. As

3:02

always, if you haven't seen this film before

3:04

listening, you may want to, but if you

3:06

haven't the time, our hosts will indeed escort

3:08

you with their discussion into this unhinged journey.

3:11

All I'll caution is that if you're listening

3:13

while driving, don't be surprised

3:15

if the Black Road and the night should

3:17

blend together. And do watch

3:20

yourself while voyaging through the liminal spaces

3:22

of the open highway because you never know

3:25

who or what you'll

3:27

run into, person, place,

3:31

or your own grim thoughts. Stay

3:33

tuned after this episode and I'll rejoin with you,

3:36

catch you where you land and speculate

3:38

on what comes next. But

3:40

now you're leaving radio land

3:43

and losing yourself in the

3:45

mouth of madness. Do

3:54

you hear that? In

3:59

the cruel black The madness of

4:01

night and unknowable evil from beyond

4:03

time cries out. What

4:06

dark deeds unfold on the streets

4:08

of Arkham, and which

4:10

unwitting souls, innocent or impure,

4:13

will succumb to the maddening

4:15

call, the call

4:17

of Cthulhu. Welcome

4:25

to Cthulhu Cosomentary. Hi,

4:27

I'm Cat. Hi, I'm Luke. Hey,

4:30

I'm Doug. Hello, I'm Jared. And

4:32

today we are going to be

4:34

talking about John Carpenter's Lovecraftian masterwork

4:37

In the Mouth of Madness from

4:39

1994. Now, Luke and I

4:41

have both seen this film before. I'd be hard

4:44

pressed to say what my favorite John Carpenter movie

4:46

is, but I could very quickly tell

4:48

you what the most influential John Carpenter movie

4:50

is for me, and that is this

4:52

movie. This is the

4:55

epicenter of really a huge part of my

4:57

interest in Lovecraft, like I discovered this film

4:59

and Lovecraft's work at the same time when

5:01

I was like in either late middle school

5:03

or early high school, and

5:05

things spiraled out from there. So I feel like

5:07

this film is only, at least for me, improved

5:09

with age and time and repeat viewings, but

5:12

you two have both seen it, Jared and Doug,

5:14

for the first time. Yes. So,

5:19

do you read Sutter Cane? I

5:22

do not, unfortunately. I don't read horror trash. I

5:24

can see. He sees you. What

5:28

you're saying is like, oh, this is so influential

5:30

on me. Like, oh, I can totally see that.

5:32

And I completely see why. I

5:34

think a hurdle for me going in

5:36

is that I have seen so many

5:39

other Lovecraftian inspired movies. Seeing

5:42

this was like, I kind of

5:45

felt I knew more what to expect going in,

5:47

whereas if I didn't know anything about Lovecraft, it

5:49

would have blown my fucking mind way more. So

5:53

For me, I'm just like, it felt like

5:55

a more familiar tune, like someone who knows

5:57

what they're doing making a Lovecraftian movie. I

6:00

felt like I couldn't understand the beads more

6:02

like I could anticipate of nuts would negative

6:04

degree but it was like i'm jealous of

6:06

your younger experience. I've seen it without really

6:08

understanding Mou Lovecraft or been expertly exposed about

6:10

and having that's because I'm just are like

6:12

yo yeah this this is Lovecraft movie as

6:15

was also important that I had not seen

6:17

a David Lynch film aside from Duna Right

6:19

right? right? So like is this if this

6:21

had happened at it as much much like

6:23

yourself at this happen at an early time

6:25

in my life I think it would have

6:27

been like a much larger impact on on

6:29

me. As a stands now, I think

6:31

it's cool. Certainly seems to understand Lovecraft thing

6:33

more than a lot of it. Like there's

6:35

the Calc of who was Ireland movie was

6:37

good you know, and I haven't seen my

6:39

big on a hassle free ground. but I

6:41

mean like. That's closest to sinks here, especially

6:44

in a continuum of the facility. Commentary things is

6:46

this is the first thing we've done that. Is

6:48

in no way and adaptation of anything

6:50

right and Iraq but like not directly

6:52

or indirectly there's a lot going on

6:54

by that to me is what made

6:56

it still cool and fresh and interesting

6:58

as like this is someone doing a

7:00

love crap story without actually at adapting

7:02

something so swimming in the middle of

7:04

it and and and really getting the

7:06

spirit of it and without just directly

7:08

copy in it. So I really dug

7:11

that and some of the creature design

7:13

was like especially towards the end. everything

7:15

like that with all fantastic and I'll

7:17

just like a sieve. For the same for the

7:19

end yeah and I can. I get that like we

7:21

could only see some necklaces other could probably reality as

7:23

a sky hobbling in the suit. but they really made

7:25

it work like really well that there is a literal

7:27

Lovecraft the and Obscurity have. and yeah where it gets

7:29

hit a point where even me as a viewer I'm

7:31

like was that a guy in a suit? Oh wait,

7:33

that's like Amazon It but a cut. Zero.

7:35

They're cutting so well between like. What?

7:38

Is either person in a suit or animatronic or

7:40

mixture of to and then you think you can

7:42

like I want when I'm like oh yeah that

7:44

guy's like running, hobbling on whatever but then a

7:46

custom another shot in. it's like all part of

7:48

one large mass on like you know what's out

7:50

what I'm seat and that's the point of my

7:52

projects it you can't make sense of it. I

7:54

was different having fun, just kind of digesting one

7:56

of just the editing and visuals that they were

7:59

doing to kind of. Create a sense

8:01

of disorientation not just for the audience

8:03

and author Samuel character know as as

8:05

is progressing through through the film love

8:08

that seen in The Cafe. Yeah.

8:10

Better a that shot of him approaching

8:12

with the accent. yeah yeah and just

8:14

to so nonchalant. the just continue and

8:16

a conversation. Now here in the world

8:18

I guess now it's probably a good

8:20

time to give an overview because we're

8:23

starting to drift into specific details if

8:25

it is else. Essentially, Samuel plays a

8:27

guy who is a freelancer who follows

8:29

up on insurance claims to someone is

8:31

claiming bullshit. He is a sniffer of

8:33

bullshit and he always gets his person

8:35

And he is so good at his

8:37

job. He loves it when people play

8:39

play. Hard to get in are professionals

8:42

about it. He gets brought in to

8:44

work on a claim that has been

8:46

made by a publishing company because a

8:48

global best selling author all. Ah, Stephen

8:51

King The Seventeen. Does exist in this

8:53

universe is outsells him names sutter. Kane

8:55

has gone missing. They do not know

8:57

where the next and save heavily advertised

8:59

the next book and they do not

9:01

know where is. The editor has read

9:03

some of it but it's not done

9:05

and they don't know what to do

9:07

and they are. Filing. An insurance

9:09

claim to the stand be out a lot

9:11

of money. So Sam Neill get roped in

9:13

to basically figure out where the fuck that

9:15

are Kane is on. but the meantime. There.

9:18

Is such a like cultural frenzy happening around

9:20

set or can read in the release of

9:22

the most recent book? The Hobbes and

9:25

Horse that people are riding. At bookstores

9:27

and stuff, there is a suggestion. That

9:29

you only see bits and pieces of

9:31

that. Maybe. Just maybe. The

9:33

rumor is that these books actually do

9:35

make you unhinged on every already on

9:38

his stats. The excuse? I'd rather already

9:40

unstable these this just as a really

9:42

horrible Jai Alai. The books that like

9:44

millions and millions of people read, write

9:46

And so Samuel gets sent out along

9:48

with Linda Styles Sutter Keynes editor to

9:50

track him down because Samuel eventually figures

9:53

out that. said, Arcane who does his

9:55

own artwork for the books, has left

9:57

a puzzle map in the artwork and

9:59

that. To the fictional town

10:01

of Hubs and which is essentially

10:03

Castle Rock. From Stephen King's books

10:05

there are many like Nudges and

10:07

know in the realm of like

10:09

what Stephen King was and is

10:12

culturally but in terms of the

10:14

actual content of the story sometimes

10:16

down to exact close everything else

10:18

is Lovecraft and the story is

10:20

ultimately more Lovecraft the and in

10:22

nature than it is Stephen King

10:24

of of course Stephen King is

10:26

cove come around in that direction

10:28

in his later years anyways. Isn't

10:31

Randall Flagg is not laugh at. Have yes

10:33

and our last a tap is the word

10:35

of the day. A comedy club for that.

10:37

It isn't like. If this is an adaptation,

10:39

if anything, this. Movie is an adaptation of

10:41

at least the concept of near Last

10:43

The Tap, speaking to people and sharing

10:46

madness. This. Movie has I

10:48

feel aged really well because ultimately

10:50

what happens this journey that Samuel.

10:52

Goes on. The more of the books that he reads,

10:54

the deeper he goes, the more dreamlike. His entire

10:56

life experiences and the more fucked up

10:59

things start getting until he's losing time

11:01

until he himself like the movie opens

11:03

a Lovecraft in framing device or we

11:05

see him getting institutionalized and then. He

11:08

starts telling a story and

11:10

investigator investigating the missing or

11:12

weirdness of another investigator, Young,

11:14

very yeah, now. Terms of like

11:17

how the film has aids in the messages of

11:19

the films like always. Well, as was growing up,

11:21

I thought the third act as a little week I didn't really

11:23

get it. but. In twenty nineteen after.

11:25

Not having seen the movie for many years, I

11:27

I joined up with the Loses Club, the Stephen

11:29

King podcast and I may have seen this is

11:31

sceptical. Have been following Like Coffee Mister program on

11:33

social media for a while or we didn't meet

11:35

up at the Music Box Theater in Chicago, Illinois

11:38

to watch In the Mouth of Madness and the

11:40

Big Screen The first time I've ever seen it

11:42

in there. And when you're watching that film. In

11:44

a theater. And it ends in the

11:46

theater with everything that's happened in our

11:49

world and our lives, their business and

11:51

play. Nineteen, It just. Landed really

11:53

really really really hard. And so

11:55

far as that, this is about

11:58

the. proliferation of mass media shot

14:00

compositions and characters and things like that and

14:02

then a movie kind of bubbles up out

14:04

of that. And

14:06

then I think that probably lends itself to more

14:09

that dreamlike quality whereas this is

14:11

more of like a discreet exercise

14:13

by John Carpenter. Yeah,

14:15

especially with the special effects and everything like

14:18

you have to know what you want to

14:20

get when you have this much stuff in

14:22

play. The writer by the

14:24

way is Michael DeLuca, which is weird.

14:26

Mostly known for just producing. Yeah, a

14:29

very, very prolific producer. However, in terms

14:31

of King's Dominion, he did write the

14:33

screenplay for Lawn Mower Man. Huh. Make

14:36

of That What You Will and then also in

14:38

terms of the sci-fi horror, he has four credits

14:40

for screenwriting. Lawn Mower Man, Freddy's Dead the Final

14:42

Nightmare, In the Mouth of Madness and Judge Dredd

14:44

the 1995 one. Make

14:48

of That What You Will. But if you look at

14:50

his production credits, holy shit. Like some of the best

14:52

movies of the past 30 years. So

14:55

I don't know really anything about Michael DeLuca aside

14:57

from like I've seen his name flash in the

14:59

front of a lot of films. He

15:01

actually did a interview show

15:04

with Hollywood screenwriters in the vein

15:06

of Inside the Actors Studio. Oh, that's

15:08

interesting. Wow. And he was very much,

15:10

at least if the show was

15:12

to be believed, an advocate of the writer being

15:15

key to the process

15:17

and trying to use his way as a producer to

15:19

be like, hey, we need to give more credit to

15:21

writers. Because

15:23

if they're not good and the script's not

15:25

good, the movie's not going to work. So it was,

15:27

I'd seen several of those when I was going to

15:29

college and like trying to get more into the mindset

15:32

of, you know, how does the studio system work? Where

15:34

does a writer fit in with all that? And it

15:36

was really refreshing to see someone

15:38

with that kind of authority deferring to writers

15:40

and kind of fanboying out over the people

15:42

that he would interview and meet. I feel

15:45

validated now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

15:47

just obviously an impressive pedigree of films that

15:49

he's produced as well. This movie

15:52

has a great cast. Sam Neill is the

15:54

main character, John Trent. Julie Carmen

15:56

plays Linda Styles, the editor. And then

15:58

there's like, it is stock. to the

16:00

brim with character actors you've seen from

16:02

other things. Everybody is somebody. Charlton

16:05

Hessen has a bit part for like seemingly no

16:07

apparent reason but sure he's fine in it. Hayden

16:09

Christensen his film debut you see

16:11

his actual face not even

16:13

remotely as much as you see him

16:16

wearing some regrettable age makeup. Which looks

16:19

coincidentally like John Carpenter. His

16:23

age makeup looks like present-day John Carpenter.

16:25

It is very strange. Doug

16:29

there's a Ghostbusters connection here. Well yeah I

16:31

the dude's mug is plain as day. I

16:33

just was like I kept wanting to make

16:35

like you're the buzzing the flies to it.

16:37

But every moment was inappropriate. I was just

16:39

I was interested in seeing how the scene

16:41

progressed and like what was happening. Because every

16:43

time we showed up bad things happened. Yeah

16:45

yeah it was yeah it's as well this

16:47

is the only other major on-screen performance

16:50

of William Von Holmberg

16:52

the actor who plays

16:54

Viggo. So yeah no it

16:56

was cool it was cool to see him and

16:58

then not be the villain

17:00

but still be like creepy guy but

17:02

yet he's just local just

17:05

local farmer guy. Yeah yeah that was cool. It's like

17:07

if the world

17:09

ever needed to do a deep fake for Viggo. More

17:12

material than mine. You

17:16

know not just straight on you know. But

17:20

that was that was a fun treat. And then seeing like

17:22

John Glover being in it like all these all these character

17:24

actors popping up throughout the entire thing. It was a kind

17:26

of kind of a who's who of a spooky movie stuff.

17:28

Luke when did you see this film for the first time?

17:31

You know probably in

17:33

college. It was kind of a

17:35

thing where I hadn't seen it before but I'd heard of it. Somebody

17:38

just mentioned it specifically because like I

17:40

actually started running the College of the

17:42

Blue RPG. And somebody was like oh you'd

17:44

probably like this movie then. And that

17:46

was when I saw it for the first time. Seeing

17:49

it again in a review. It

17:51

holds up pretty strong and there's just a few

17:53

scenes in it that are just really

17:56

like iconic and burned into my memory.

17:58

Yeah. Like yeah like that scene. how

20:00

it's done. It is not fake at

20:02

all. And an ominous church in a

20:04

vacant field. Yeah, it's legitimately

20:06

real life creepy then. Like, I don't

20:09

know what... Tell me about

20:11

the person who designed it. Did they kill themselves?

20:13

Like, he's like... Yeah. First time I saw that,

20:15

I was like, oh, that's a weird matte painting

20:17

to do, but... But they did a really cool

20:19

looking church. They keep, like, moving towards it and

20:21

they go in the doors. I was like, oh

20:23

my gosh, like... Oh, you see

20:25

this Orthodox monk. He went insane after designing this

20:27

church. He's somewhere down there, I'm going to the

20:29

camp of Cobes. I

20:32

guess for anyone who for some reason started listening to

20:34

this, hasn't seen the film. This is

20:37

like a... Unhugendomed Russian... These

20:39

are like, Byzantine style kind

20:41

of thing. Like, Eastern Orthodox.

20:44

Out of place in, like, New Hampshire. I

20:49

love the progression of this and

20:51

how it's really well plotted in

20:53

terms of Sam Neill's character being

20:55

someone whose job and passion is

20:57

to sniff out liars and

21:00

finds it virtually impossible

21:02

to believe anything impossible is happening to

21:04

him. Whereas Stiles, who he's

21:07

traveling with, she likes being

21:09

scared. She likes horror stories and the fact

21:11

that all of a sudden she's seeing a bunch of

21:13

things that are not just from

21:15

Sutter Kane's books, but are in the

21:18

unpublished book that she can't rationalize at

21:20

all. Yeah. Pretty much immediately accepts that

21:22

something crazy is going on. Yeah, and

21:24

that's a logical thing to do. But for

21:26

Sam Neill, the logical thing is to figure

21:28

out how this is a situation with a

21:30

bunch of paid actors. How all of

21:32

this is some kind of crazy promotional scheme that

21:35

the publisher is putting on. He is

21:37

fighting his own insanity the whole time

21:39

by virtue of his

21:42

not wanting to believe something that is actively

21:44

insane. And that protects him

21:46

up to the end when he effectively

21:48

commits suicide, embraces oblivion by

21:50

watching the film version of In

21:53

the Mouth of Madness. I really

21:55

felt that The beginning and end for

21:57

me are like the by far strongest.

22:00

To the entire that yeah, and it will do, or does

22:02

it does a good like twenty minute segment in the middle

22:04

wary of we're just kind. Going.

22:06

To other weird thing to other weird thing

22:08

just so that we can say that he's

22:10

experienced so many ridiculous things that we the

22:12

audience are convinced that something supernatural going on

22:14

I'm are no longer on Samuel side and

22:16

that was I felt a little tedious but

22:18

then ruin the movie it's it's is that

22:20

the beginning. The men are so strong Smith

22:22

has yet as if it's if the Stephen

22:25

King aesthetic a pale by comparison to how

22:27

strong it begins and ends. For me. It

22:29

does meander and a seemingly meanders

22:31

on purpose just to establish like.

22:33

The. Of the a mood yeah, the an escape ability

22:35

of it. You know? The. Other some intense

22:37

repetition and like and that's really really sad to

22:40

watch him go mad. like when he continues to

22:42

let you drive the car trying to leave the

22:44

talents. And it's at. But back in for the mob

22:46

again again and again and again until he finally. Like

22:48

okay fuck am I try to the bomb. That doesn't

22:50

make any sense but I'm that I do it. But

22:53

even you a even still he still is trying so

22:55

hard. To. Consider the possibility that

22:57

maybe he's insane, but the rest of that

22:59

isn't true. My

23:05

free program has brought here by

23:07

ah spots at odds both. Are.

23:10

I fitted. We. Know you run

23:12

at a speakeasy with their supplies. The

23:15

preview of Cocktail Theater as the Mixer

23:17

As we've found the Goddesses. Way.

23:19

I'd nepal detective I. Have

23:21

no idea what you're talking about. All.

23:24

This stuff here. This is. Alpha

23:26

Personal use a likely story

23:28

Caribbean agree it's like this

23:30

must be from some time

23:32

operation. Spill. It or

23:34

I'll take your doubts out and

23:36

call your mother easy detective, easy

23:39

secret, etc and spoke about every

23:41

month or two of us have

23:43

been spotify. Told

23:46

us including all the ingredients. He.

23:48

That provide your boss of course which

23:50

I don't have any as center to

23:52

apartments. You're telling me all this stuff

23:54

came from some sort of far delivery

23:56

service. Yeah. The recipes

23:58

a classic sense. Follow and it

24:00

shows up at a neat, well organized package

24:02

if you know what I mean. I

24:05

didn't believe it. I that till I

24:07

gave it a try. Find soy to

24:09

make and sophisticated concoctions the I just

24:11

can't go wrong. Say I will.

24:13

We all got stuck in our homes

24:15

back during the pandemic. You know, the

24:18

one in Nineteen eighteen? It was an

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28:55

Of this. The. Yeah, I

28:57

actually happened be wearing the shirt which is

28:59

funny. I know what. So

29:04

yeah I mean like in in I

29:06

guess kind of think you. Have

29:08

caffeine stories make Hp Lovecraft himself in

29:10

registers come since known as a temp

29:13

is kind of the great old one

29:15

or outer God that really. Is.

29:17

The one that actually cares about humanity

29:19

in some way. It's not a good

29:22

way. Like Young so thought his time

29:24

and space and it's eat you really

29:26

have relationship with that you Some new

29:28

growth is is this the primal forces

29:30

to come to the and and life

29:32

and death and things like that and

29:34

known as a temp is a servant.

29:37

Not. Has it serves the the will

29:39

of the blind idiot god at the

29:42

center of the universe? And I guess

29:44

has. Plenty. Over time on

29:46

its hands to regretted season and life

29:48

and take them out on lesser beings

29:50

and very much as they kind of

29:53

in in the intervene of like a

29:55

trickster god late like a much more

29:57

malevolent like. Loki. Or

29:59

or. Coyote or something. When he shows

30:01

up, it's often in any context of

30:04

abusing authority or in some kind of

30:06

way. I liked the Black Pharaoh. Were

30:08

at the scene out dark. figure? that

30:10

is just you know, horrible worst thing

30:12

you can imagine a Ferret V murderous

30:14

entity and you know or. One.

30:16

Of my favorite actual like written

30:18

by Lovecraft stories is is not

30:20

off a tepid the short story

30:22

itself where it's in modern day

30:24

he just showed up and actually

30:26

it has a lot of kind

30:28

of thematic assets with this with

30:30

said Arcane himself where I laughed

30:32

as have shows up and just.

30:35

Goes. On a speaking tour. And.

30:37

People go in and they watch all

30:39

of these fantastical sites that know Athens

30:41

have has to show people and then

30:43

they leave. Permanently changed and the

30:45

world is slowly unraveling because of that

30:47

and Nasa. I think very much kind

30:49

of the the essence of what this

30:52

I movie as. And I don't know

30:54

that it directly that that's necessarily what

30:56

he was going for because we know

30:58

whether John Carpenter didn't write this himself,

31:00

burner and enough, the writer kind of

31:02

came in with that idea or elements

31:04

of that. or if it's just a

31:06

good kind of story to tell my

31:08

dad. there's definitely elements of that Their

31:10

the more ice I watch this movie

31:12

than more. I think that the know.

31:14

That a tap. Short story comparison has to

31:16

be. A driving force behind that

31:18

has kind of like someone. Reading. Your

31:21

last a tap and was already like keyed

31:23

into Stephen King's work and thought. Well

31:26

gosh, Stephen King Less Lovecraft Lovecraft

31:28

like like what about my thing about the

31:31

proliferation of knowledge? Hell is this. the small

31:33

time writer like his work has like Rt

31:35

they changed six and in horror and so

31:37

forth like it's a snowball. Effect. Then it

31:39

gets in a handsome he like Stephen

31:41

King and it gets further proliferated. And

31:43

what is that was a psychological agent

31:46

that could actually. Undies. Reality.

31:48

Like a it's easy to be dismissed until

31:50

all the sudden everyone is engaging with it

31:52

and really seeing how mass media. Proliferates ideas

31:55

the same way that the the

31:57

Hays code changed the kinds of

31:59

stories that we could tell in

32:01

America in the nineteen thirties, creating

32:03

the world all of us grew

32:05

up in where we had been

32:07

in this like whitewashed completely warped

32:09

idea of what like. Lice.

32:12

And and this country. As cowboys

32:14

are good, Indians are bad or

32:17

worse than other ways are also

32:19

mostly white people. Yeah yeah the

32:21

the layers of of how that

32:23

like that thought control like how

32:26

it seems the now, but it

32:28

is in fact extraordinarily insidious like

32:30

that cannot be overstated. I know.

32:32

It's an idea that has been explored many

32:35

times in different. Ways But when you actually

32:37

look at the time? when when you actually

32:39

see that the media that was being created

32:41

before. These like sexist,

32:44

racist nationalistic laws,

32:46

Are put in place to control what our

32:48

media couldn't couldn't do. It goes from being.

32:51

Reality. To Not reality.

32:53

Not reality. Not reality. That's

32:55

what happened to all. Of us and

32:58

we're trying to still like care. That

33:00

veil and it's getting worse because now

33:02

we live in a world. Where

33:04

there are people that we live

33:06

next door to. Who. Do

33:09

not have any semblance of history

33:11

or really perceive reality. They will

33:13

believe what the box tells him

33:15

to believe or the rectangle as

33:17

the case may be and they

33:19

will let their realities be warped.

33:21

They will not get any further.

33:23

contacts. They believe what they are told

33:26

and they do the thing and they

33:28

react And I'm you know I may

33:30

even sir. And. Terms of like even

33:32

in the scope of just how things have changed

33:34

since assumption out. Like. Were there

33:36

like rise at bookstores over media and stuff

33:38

like at that point time like hate was

33:40

any best selling author. actually causing that kind

33:42

of like chaos is reminiscent of things we seen

33:45

in our lifetime probably not but i think like

33:47

if you're making a horror film you would look

33:49

at people waiting in line for stephen king novel

33:51

unsafe would be crazy if it was impeached we

33:54

lovecraft was alive today and you know i could

33:56

you could see a logical progression of like would

33:58

be great you know the

34:00

fervor, take it to the extreme.

34:02

What does that look like? And that's in the

34:05

mouth of madness. Yeah, I'm thinking of like what

34:07

product has been released in our lifetime where people

34:09

have. iPhone. Yeah, I was gonna say. Yeah. Mickey

34:14

D Sichuan sauce. Yes. Ooh.

34:16

More timely. And according to a

34:19

pickle, funniest shit I ever saw. Yeah. Yeah.

34:23

But the final Harry Potter books,

34:25

people grabbing by trolling people, spoiling

34:27

endings and stuff, and having mental

34:30

breakdowns over it. The handful of

34:32

people who committed suicide after seeing James

34:34

Cameron's Avatar. And we live in a

34:36

world, especially being here in Orlando, where

34:38

the fanaticism surrounding people's love for the

34:40

Disney brand, the Disney company, is

34:43

very eerie and very strange. And has completely

34:45

eliminated my capacity to like, when friends come

34:47

from out of town and be like, I'm

34:49

gonna go take my kid to the parks.

34:51

I'm like, boy. Have fun, have fun. I

34:54

mean, I appreciate the craft of the

34:57

Imagineers, but this is some, it

34:59

became a church and

35:01

it got really disturbing. And it's getting worse.

35:03

It's because it is. Yeah. Just

35:06

pull the veil off and just every product

35:08

is in itself a religion. And

35:10

so that angle that Sutter

35:13

Cane was talking about is

35:15

true. Yeah. There were plenty of

35:17

things that they could have been inspired by in

35:20

the creation of this film and the script and everything,

35:23

but good grief. Our reality is

35:26

emulating worst case scenario predictions

35:28

of things. And in that way,

35:30

that also feels very Lovecraftian in and

35:32

of itself. We were

35:34

all kind of reaching for examples of what mass

35:36

thing, but what about

35:38

Black Friday? Oh, sure. That's been

35:41

a thing for a long time. And I think every

35:43

time anyone sees it, like

35:45

any normal, air quotes, rational person

35:48

sees Black Friday, they go, this

35:50

country is insane. Like, this is insanity.

35:53

That is where you see violence. We're seeing the end times. Yeah. It

35:56

cannot be overstated that the power

35:58

of stories of words and the power

36:00

of like what we put out in the world. Stravinsky's

36:03

right of spring triggered a riot.

36:05

And that's like fancy folks totally

36:07

losing their shit because they were just not prepared for

36:10

it. So fluid. It's

36:13

about fordication in the springtime. Disgusting.

36:20

If plants and animals do it, it mustn't be something

36:23

for humanity to celebrate. It's like it's

36:25

classical music. You put that picture in your

36:27

head. It's like you're just mad at yourself.

36:30

I have a question. Do you think that

36:32

John Trent is a fictional

36:35

character in his own reality? Or

36:37

do you think he's somebody who like the

36:40

editor was manipulated? Like where does reality start

36:42

and stop? I

36:44

think this is an example of a film

36:48

character becoming aware that

36:50

he's a film character. Yeah. Like

36:53

at first you're like okay this is the book that he's writing.

36:56

By the time you get to the end you're saying no this is quite

36:59

literally the movie based on the book.

37:01

So it's almost like he's even an

37:03

extra step removed from John Trent. So

37:06

that's the chaotic futility of

37:08

it all. John is imprisoned in

37:11

many regards. He gets trapped in the town. He

37:13

gets trapped in the confession booth. He gets trapped

37:16

in time loops. He gets trapped in so many

37:18

different ways. And then he realizes like he has

37:20

always been trapped in the rectangle of our screens. And

37:23

even if you think about it in the beginning he's like

37:25

I'm not crazy because he knows what he is and he

37:27

knows this is a fiction. But

37:30

much like what the assistant said

37:32

was well if you're sane and

37:34

everyone else is crazy you know now you're the crazy

37:36

one. So

37:39

it was very aware of what it was doing

37:41

and placed all those things in a row nicely.

37:43

It's also interesting because that's a component of Twin

37:45

Peaks that wasn't as clearly

37:47

a component of Twin Peaks until

37:49

the return happened. But here's John

37:51

Carpenter doing a similar thing in

37:54

a dreamy space much earlier. Also

37:56

about mass media and about the power of

37:59

it. on

40:00

the side, like this is written in the

40:02

late 80s and there were two

40:04

other directors attached to it. Initially it was

40:06

offered to John Carpenter. He turned it down,

40:08

there were two directors attached to it before

40:11

Carpenter ended up like cycling background and doing

40:13

it. One was Tony Randall, who's best known

40:15

for Hellraiser 2, aka one

40:17

of the most surprising pivots in horror

40:20

sequels, and Mary Lambert in

40:23

92, she did Pet Sematary 2. Interesting

40:25

horror and Stephen King connections. I feel

40:27

like Stephen King is so prolific it's

40:29

hard to avoid any, especially if you're

40:31

writing a story about a horror novel,

40:34

a horror novelist rather. And at that

40:36

time, anything between that mid 80s

40:40

into the 90s period, that was

40:42

an unstoppable force. Cast a long

40:44

shadow. Yeah, I mean, heck, John

40:46

Carpenter before this did Christine,

40:48

which is one of Stephen King's movies.

40:50

And I guess like

40:52

the book was out, and

40:55

then they started filming right away. That

40:57

was like a back to back thing where he

40:59

was already pretty well established at that point to where

41:01

they're like, yeah, we're already going to make a movie

41:03

out of this. I mean, that's kind of a self

41:05

fulfilling prophecy in the mouth of madness when

41:07

they're like, oh yeah, the movie's coming out like six

41:09

months after the book is released. And the movie poster

41:12

says directed by John Carpenter. Yeah. This

41:14

is very, you know. Yeah, I

41:17

really like that line at the end where they're talking

41:19

about it. And one of the things is like,

41:21

well, what about people that don't read? Well, the

41:23

movie's coming out next week. Yeah. Yeah. And

41:27

the eerie, eerie, eerie discussions about how like

41:29

10 years from now, humanity is going to

41:31

be like a sad, weird little

41:33

bedtime story that gets told by the rest of

41:35

the universe. Because like

41:38

anything, anything that's left from this will not

41:40

survive. Bleak, bleak. It's

41:42

very bleak. I think the

41:44

scary, the to me, the creepiest thing about those

41:46

scenes in the Insane Asylum is the

41:48

detective who's asking these questions by

41:52

omitting any response to what Sam

41:54

Neill is saying about the outside world. You get the

41:56

sense that the detective already kind of believes him going

41:58

in. That's something Crazy is happening

42:00

and then and then so by the time you get

42:03

to the end the movie He's just like well That's

42:05

my story blah blah blah and as he leaves that

42:07

John Glover's like who do you say anything? He's like no Nothing

42:11

important. You're like this the delivery

42:13

of it is very very much. It's like yeah, I Wonder

42:16

wonder what he did after he left whether he

42:18

thought the world was fucked or or just this

42:20

was one crazy day He had a taste of

42:23

his service revolver in the parking lot. Yeah, like

42:25

yeah, I know that's my story checks out Do

42:28

you ever let sanity rolls burn for a little

42:30

while Luke like you ever had a situation where someone's

42:32

like failed their role like that Guy failed his role

42:34

just then but like he gets out

42:37

of the building. It's not like a boom immediate

42:39

reaction. It's like a slow painful

42:43

Realization as the quiet places in his

42:45

head get filled up with things that

42:47

shouldn't be there and there's only one way out How

42:51

do you feel about slow burn sanity glosses like that

42:53

on a technical level? Well, it's

42:55

hard to do because you usually want to keep

42:57

things going like yeah, they get to get to

42:59

GM chat for a second City

43:03

roles aren't something that can be really super scripted

43:05

necessarily like I mean, you know when they're likely

43:07

to come up But you don't know who's gonna

43:09

fail them and you can end up with wildly

43:12

different kinds of characters that you don't necessarily All

43:15

want to have the same results for so it's it's

43:17

kind of a thing where you know There's

43:19

always the random roles option, but for

43:21

sanity roles I tend to prefer to

43:23

kind of use a combination of tools

43:25

like like sometimes I'll just use random

43:27

sometimes I'll ask the player what they

43:30

think and yeah And if you know if I trust

43:32

the players generally I'm gonna let them ride with it

43:34

if they kind of understand the basics of it But

43:36

I think it really depends on who you're playing with

43:38

and what kind of what kind of game you're running

43:41

How many games have you run where

43:43

the literal end of the world happens not just TPK

43:45

or everyone goes crazy But rather like no, they're here

43:47

and that's the end mountain, you know in the mouth

43:49

of madness So I just finished up a pulp game.

43:52

I had been running it for like a year year

43:54

and a half they got to the end the serpent

43:58

sorceress was sort of playing them But

44:01

they decided, I guess her plans

44:03

for the end of the world were the

44:06

best they were gonna get. So

44:08

the world didn't end, but everybody got turned

44:10

into serpent people. Okay, well

44:12

sure, society definitely changed then. Yeah,

44:14

yeah, especially if you're dealing

44:17

with 1930s. It's interesting to

44:19

think, yeah, how

44:21

would Nazi Germany handle it if they suddenly all

44:23

became serpent people? What would Stalin think about that?

44:26

They'd all be really into

44:28

snakechas. Oh yeah,

44:31

we kind of ended on the result of that though.

44:34

And they presumably

44:36

kind of had places along

44:38

with the serpent sorcerers responsible. But

44:41

I had another game where they

44:43

went through the whole game doing

44:45

good, ups and downs. Sometimes

44:47

people get killed and brought back to

44:49

life, all kinds of things like

44:51

that happen. But eventually in the big final battle,

44:54

they had their spells that they needed to contain

44:56

everything. But somebody blew all their magic

44:58

points beforehand, the one who knew how to cast

45:00

a spell. And then they got

45:02

stomped to death by the Sphinx, which

45:04

was up and walking around. We

45:07

kind of ended with that, but presumably

45:09

it's not the full on end of

45:11

the world. It's just the Sphinx goes

45:13

on like a Godzilla style rampage. That

45:15

sounds like the start of the end. Yeah,

45:17

exactly. All of Cairo is their litter

45:19

box. In

45:22

all honesty, now that I think about it, usually that's

45:24

the realm of one shots. Yeah,

45:27

yeah. But for the most part, most

45:30

of the one shots, I can't really think of anywhere that's

45:32

happened. It's mostly just been those

45:35

two campaign examples. Surprisingly

45:37

kind of you. I'm

45:40

sure the dice have a lot to do with it too. No doubt.

45:44

I think if you're a fan of Call

45:47

of Cthulhu or Lovecraft in general,

45:50

Specifically, I mean the Mystery Program, you're listening to this. You

45:52

Have to be. And You haven't seen the Mouth of Madness.

45:54

I Think you should. I'm sorry we ruined it for

45:56

you. Yeah, it's like, yeah, make it all the way to

45:58

the end. Spoiler alert to get

46:01

this late in the in the thing but. Yeah,

46:03

you should. I had no real good reason

46:05

why I. Delayed. Seen.

46:08

It myself or so long? just I guess so he

46:10

could share this moment I'm sure. But yeah, know if

46:12

you're into it. Does is like lockstep

46:14

like this is this is the same stuff.

46:16

Go for it. Yeah. There's some

46:18

the first movie I ever made

46:21

as a short film and in

46:23

high school called Sadder Dream that

46:25

was. Fueled by let's

46:27

say yeah, three significant things in

46:29

the mouth of madness: phantasm and

46:31

me struggling to process being trans

46:33

and not realizing that's what was

46:36

happening. so. I'd. Say that in the

46:38

mouth of madness is. A very specific part

46:40

of my Dna that is pretty integral

46:42

to the existence of mystery program. Am

46:44

a huge you watching back on that

46:46

old stuff. It's kind of like you

46:48

is Sam Neill Yes. Ah,

46:53

The I was at some point the realized that

46:55

the world that you've been living in as a

46:58

complete six it that you either to sell a

47:00

can make your own reality and and become your

47:02

own godlike said Arcane did or on our you

47:04

keep living the dream which is not a good

47:07

dream said. Littering the nightmare because if you

47:09

stay in the dream it turns into a nightmare near.

47:11

I mean this is very bad analogy, but all

47:13

in all commune with their with though the writing

47:16

things, the darkness and step there and my own

47:18

power. Yes, I'm not gonna hurt anybody in the

47:20

process, but I will open their minds. I will

47:22

put their face to the manuscript in have them

47:24

read. I mean ideally be consensually. But.

47:28

Anyway, thank you so much

47:30

for joining us on this

47:32

journey through Lovecraft, the and

47:34

cinema. And remember this is

47:36

reality is he didn't. He

47:40

say so because. With.

47:51

A twist to the dial. I

47:53

ceased to exist. Shore.

47:56

Deter. You dial back to Wy as at

47:58

their I am Bringing New job in. Conversation

48:01

is always. And. You might imagine that.

48:03

When you're not listening to me, I am indeed still

48:05

sitting here. Or. Perhaps at home

48:07

or meandering down some snowy avenue,

48:09

but. Are you sure. You've.

48:12

Been told how radio works with my

48:15

voice is traveling through the and is

48:17

being summoned forth by this apparatus just

48:19

like magic. Would. You make

48:21

just as well have been told that I'm

48:23

some sort of benign god speaking to you

48:25

and sweet music and mellow Toms. It's

48:28

just so happens that this device perform

48:30

the ritual to southern me so you

48:32

don't have to eat those peculiar mushrooms

48:34

to hear the voices. Practice:

48:36

Some radio technicians and hobbyists out there

48:39

narrowing their eyes at me. You know

48:41

how this works. Full health. So

48:43

did the druids. my friends. The.

48:46

Point of the matter is this. You.

48:49

May suspect that I'm flesh and blood because

48:51

I tell you the story of my existence.

48:54

I suppose I tell myself the story, my

48:56

existence to. I believe I exist.

48:59

And believe is a powerful thing. A.

49:01

Lot of people have done beautiful and

49:03

horrible things lit by the Spark A

49:05

belief. But. Just because this

49:07

little voice in the box goes on believing

49:09

it's existence. Doesn't mean that it's true.

49:13

As far as you know, Every. Time

49:15

you touch that dial, click me on

49:17

or. I'm. Gone. And

49:20

when I come back. I'm just telling

49:22

you the story that I persisted in

49:25

the interim. We.

49:27

May never know. But.

49:29

Then. Perhaps. You'll

49:31

see me down at the odd about

49:33

eating chicken salad sandwich and realize that

49:35

a certain radio personalities just been reading

49:37

a little too much scientific discourse. Though.

49:41

That hypothetical is again. A

49:44

story. But

49:47

if you're here in this place at

49:49

this time, not by accident, but by

49:51

will. Than one thing we know

49:53

for certain is a few. Like

49:56

stories. and perhaps the

49:58

story of stories If

50:00

you enjoyed this arcane advent, there are

50:02

more stories in store for you at

50:04

cthulhumystery.com/support. Become an initiate

50:07

via either Patreon or supporting cast, and

50:09

the Omniverse team's further adventures through Lovecraftian

50:11

cinema will be yours. Perhaps

50:13

you enjoy peering through crevices to see

50:16

what mysteries await. If

50:18

so, then you're sure to delight

50:20

in their discussion of the film

50:22

Glorious, in which a man

50:24

has a fated encounter in a turnpike toilet,

50:27

and existence as he knows it spirals

50:30

into a dark hole. Allow

50:33

me to give you a peek, then,

50:35

into the further secrets our hosts found

50:37

in this dimly lit stall. I

50:41

went into this thinking this was going to

50:43

be the first thing, aside from in the

50:46

mouth of madness, that wasn't directly inspired by

50:48

a specific Lovecraft story. But then I read

50:50

a weird little factoid that says, based on

50:53

the short story, Out of the Eons, by

50:55

American writers H.P. Lovecraft and Hazel Held. And

50:57

there was a couple things about that statement

50:59

that I was like, wait, what, really? I'd

51:02

never heard of Out of the Eons, which surprised me. And

51:05

then I looked up Hazel Held, and unearthed a

51:07

whole bunch of things regarding

51:09

Lovecraft that I didn't know. Having

51:12

looked it up, I'd say that saying that it's based

51:15

on this story is completely wrong. I would

51:17

say that there's like a paragraph in there,

51:19

in the story, that I can read it

51:21

off. Please do. This

51:23

is a can of worms, and we're going to

51:25

get into this can of worms. That story ties

51:27

back to the very first mystery program, in kind

51:30

of a way. One of the big things that

51:32

shows up in that is Von Juntz's Nameless Cult,

51:34

which I will never, ever forget, brand

51:36

of pronouncing. But it comes up

51:38

a lot in here. We're going

51:41

to be talking about Glorious, but we're also going to

51:43

talk about the unexpected relationship

51:45

between H.P. Lovecraft and a female

51:47

writer of weird stories in the

51:49

1930s. If

51:54

that delights and intrigues, then you'll be

51:56

equally thrilled to discover what waits in

51:58

The Haunted Palace. Tell us! The

52:01

first major motion picture to adapt the work

52:03

of H.P. Lovecraft and introduce the world to

52:05

the town of Arkham that dreaded

52:07

book the Necronomicon, Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, and

52:09

figures and concepts that are perhaps

52:12

commonplace now, but rendered

52:14

in a time long, long before

52:16

that sinister mythology had taken hold

52:18

in the collective unconscious. An

52:20

important piece of history, and a

52:22

story that oughtn't be lost. Again,

52:25

that's cthulhumystery.com/support to help make

52:27

future mystery programs and macabre

52:30

meanderings from our creepy crew,

52:32

who need you, just

52:34

as I need you, to sustain our

52:37

existence. Now, a

52:40

new year beckons, and with it the

52:42

promise of fresh starts and the chance of a better year

52:44

than the one that came before. I'll

52:47

see you there, on the other side, and

52:50

with further stories in tow, to surprise

52:52

and delight. But

52:54

for now, my reality ends.

52:58

And will it with it. Thanks

53:02

for listening to the Call of Cthulhu Mystery

53:05

Program! This series is made

53:07

possible thanks to the generous support of our

53:09

producers, Amber Devereaux,

53:11

Becky Scott Foley, Bob

53:14

Hogan, CB, Joe Tankwisiardeli,

53:17

Josh King, McDribble Deluxe,

53:20

Miona MK86, Patrick Webster,

53:23

Sean Hutchinson, Sean T.

53:25

Redd, and our executive Patreon producers,

53:28

Big Bad Shadow Man, Marcus

53:30

Larson, and Jamieson Malone. You

53:33

can join the team

53:36

at cthulhumystery.com/support. And

53:38

if you enjoy this podcast broadcast,

53:40

please rate and review us on

53:42

Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or Spotify. The

53:45

Call of Cthulhu Mystery Program is

53:48

recorded and produced in Orlando, Florida,

53:50

and Louisville, Kentucky, on land stolen

53:53

from their indigenous people, the Timuqua

53:55

and Seminole, and Shawnee, Cherokee, Osage,

53:57

Seneca-Iroquois, Miami, and New York. Hopewell

54:00

and Adina. Acknowledgement of

54:02

the first people of these lands and

54:04

the lasting repercussions of colonization is just

54:06

the beginning of the restorative work that

54:09

is necessary. Through awareness,

54:11

we can prompt allyship, action,

54:13

and ultimately decolonization. For

54:16

links to aid indigenous efforts and

54:18

to learn more about the First

54:20

Nations of the land where you

54:23

live, visit cthulhumystery.com/landback. Our

54:25

original score is composed and performed by

54:27

Ryan McQuinn and Mike McQuinn of

54:29

Neon Dolphin, home for all your

54:32

custom music needs and more, neondolphinmusic.com.

54:36

This has been the Call of Cthulhu

54:38

Mystery Program. Good night. Omniverse.

54:49

The Fable and Folly Network,

54:51

where fiction producers flourish. In

54:56

the alley, the scent is stronger, overpowering.

54:59

As I watch, the overhead lamps flicker and

55:01

blink out one by one. Goddamnit,

55:06

no! The girl

55:08

appears briefly under the last streetlight, the headphones

55:10

snug against her ears, the walkman clasped to

55:12

her hip. She's oblivious as

55:14

she walks, lost in her own world. Hey,

55:17

stop! I need to talk to you! Then

55:20

she's swallowed up by the darkness again. Helen,

55:23

wait a second! Help! It

55:27

strikes her in the gloom so fast she barely has

55:29

time to scream. She

55:33

falls into the edge of the lamplight and

55:35

lies there, bleeding, motionless. The

55:41

man's skin is scaly, flaking, and there are

55:43

patches of soot on his cheeks. He

55:46

stares at me with eyes like midnight, eyes

55:49

that are devoid of remorse, devoid of

55:52

humanity. Which is one

55:54

of them. I

55:58

turn and leave. I don't look

56:00

back.