0:04

You know, my medical record is

0:06

not at home with me,

0:08

right? It's probably at the

0:11

doctor's office that, let's be

0:13

honest, specializes in medicine, not

0:15

in data protection. And so

0:17

I think there is a

0:20

better way for us to

0:22

protect private data, but get

0:24

the maximum utility out of

0:26

it and use AI to

0:29

advance, whether it's medicine or

0:31

knowledge or any other area.

0:34

It belongs to the individual.

0:36

Good morning, good afternoon. Good

0:38

evening, everyone. Welcome back to an

0:40

epic episode of the Charlie Shrum

0:42

show, and you're listening to myself,

0:44

the hosts, Charlie Shrem, and our

0:46

phenomenal guests, Iran Barack, for another

0:48

epic episode where we dive deep

0:50

with some of Bitcoin and crypto's

0:53

most influential leaders to truly understand

0:55

how this movement came to be,

0:57

where it is right now, and

0:59

where we're going in the future.

1:01

A lot of craziness going on.

1:03

Iran Barack, you are the CEO

1:05

of midnight. Are you the CEO

1:07

of IOHK or a CEO

1:09

of like just midnight specifically?

1:12

First of all, hi to

1:15

everyone and thank you. You're

1:17

very kind with your words.

1:19

Midnight is a project that

1:22

is being kind of cultivated

1:24

within input output led by

1:26

Charles Hoskinson and we're going

1:29

to launch the chain later

1:31

this year and engineering company

1:34

that will support the continuing

1:36

development of the midnight blockchain,

1:39

the story, and the ecosystem.

1:41

It seems like where we are today to

1:44

2025, companies like yourself are

1:46

launching for specific reasons.

1:48

We're no longer seeing like the

1:50

random, not anymore like L1s that

1:52

just are like catch all block

1:54

chains. Now we have projects like

1:57

yours that are very specific. You're

1:59

using ZK proofs and type of

2:01

heavy zero knowledge cryptography to do

2:03

a specific type of blockchain and

2:05

what is that? Indeed. I think

2:08

blockchain technology overall has just a

2:10

phenomenal potential to transform the market

2:12

and I think Charlie, you share

2:14

that passion and we see that

2:17

across the board, but it seems

2:19

that we have not really crossed

2:21

the chasm. into mainstream yet. And

2:23

one has to wonder why that

2:26

is the case. What is preventing

2:28

this from happening? I reflect back

2:30

to the previous startup that I

2:32

was at back in 2014, I

2:34

started a company called Symphony, which

2:37

also was about protecting data and

2:39

allowing the financial industry to exchange

2:41

ideas without kind of people snooping

2:43

because if you know what some,

2:46

let's say, bankers or traders could

2:48

do, you could get ahead of

2:50

the market, right, and it's some

2:52

financial advantage. The technology at the

2:55

time also had encryption and all

2:57

that kind of stuff, but it

2:59

was cloud-based, or that was our

3:01

design, and when we went to

3:03

the market, the banks said, we

3:06

love it, we want it, but

3:08

this thing with the cloud, we're

3:10

not there yet. We know it's

3:12

the future, just are not ready

3:15

yet to put things in the

3:17

cloud. Lo and behold, of course,

3:19

a few years later, all the

3:21

banks were in the cloud. They

3:23

were taunting cloud first. So I

3:26

feel like they're the same dynamic

3:28

right now with the blockchain. Okay,

3:30

but you're not just saying this.

3:32

You built essentially like some of

3:35

the largest plumbing behind all financial

3:37

systems in the US. I mean,

3:39

Symphony is not a small company.

3:41

You have over a thousand institutions

3:44

that use some of this technology

3:46

for sending data between themselves. This

3:48

literally is the financial plumbing of

3:50

the world pre-blockchain technology. And now

3:52

you're like sitting here and starting

3:55

up and rebuilding. This is like

3:57

exactly what I try to... explain

3:59

to people what Web 3 is.

4:01

It's people like you who were

4:04

involved in the original house. But

4:06

now that house is, you know, potential

4:08

not being knocked down, but a new

4:10

house is being built. And that's what

4:12

you're doing here. In a way,

4:14

yes. So Symphony, for those who

4:17

are not familiar, as I said,

4:19

allows the exchange of information today

4:21

is a very successful company that

4:23

is invested by over 30 of

4:25

the Wall Street banks and essentially

4:28

created a... thousands of banks to

4:30

connect and interact and is kind

4:32

of the fabric that right now

4:34

connects a lot of the financial

4:37

industry worldwide, not just in the

4:39

US. But it has one element that

4:41

we haven't been able to

4:43

solve free blockchain industry, which

4:45

is you have to have a

4:47

kind of a central party

4:50

in that case symphony that

4:52

operates kind of the service

4:54

and connects the players. I

4:56

think blockchain offers us the

4:58

opportunity to have a truly

5:00

decentralized network that can connect

5:02

parties around the world in

5:05

a trusted manner. But what

5:07

is potentially missing in today's

5:09

blockchain is the element

5:11

of privacy. We kind of

5:13

know how to do it, but we haven't

5:15

really gotten there yet. Yeah,

5:17

that's the biggest issue. So how do

5:20

we get there? Well, I think

5:22

if you unpack... privacy, you actually

5:24

realize there are two dimensions or

5:26

two elements. One is data privacy,

5:28

and that is something that I think

5:31

most people know how to solve. So

5:33

if you have data, you can either

5:35

put it on chain or put it

5:37

out, I mean, on chain, it's in

5:39

public, right? And everybody can see it.

5:42

You can theoretically, not theoretically, not theoretically,

5:44

but you can also encrypt it and

5:46

put it on the chain and provide

5:48

viewing keys to those people that you

5:51

want to give access to. or the third

5:53

option which is a more

5:55

recent thing to zero knowledge

5:57

technology is the ability to say I'm

6:00

actually keeping the data at home,

6:02

not sharing it, but putting a

6:04

zero knowledge at the station about

6:07

the data on the chain, thereby

6:09

offering the utility of access to

6:11

the data without compromising the privacy

6:14

or the ownership over the data.

6:16

A lot of people are getting

6:18

very distracted by the meme coin

6:21

worlds and kind of everything that's

6:23

going on over here, but I

6:26

know that... kind of the real

6:28

work is happening exactly with this.

6:30

We hear Ziki proofs a lot,

6:33

we hear attestations a lot, and

6:35

I know they're related, it's still

6:37

for my listener, something a little

6:40

bit complicated and confusing. And is

6:42

it true to say that with

6:44

ZK proofs, it's when you know

6:47

that some formula or some work

6:49

is being done under the hood,

6:51

you don't need to trust what's

6:54

being done, but you know that

6:56

the solution, actually the work itself

6:58

was done. That is a very

7:01

good way of presenting it. So

7:03

zero knowledge uses a cryptographic method

7:05

to look at a body of

7:08

data or a body of work

7:10

and provide a cryptographic proof of

7:12

evidence of that truth or that

7:15

data or that evidence. So when

7:17

you hear a lot about ZK

7:19

today, most of the use cases

7:22

are... associated with what's known as

7:24

roll-ups. Roll-ups are a way, for

7:26

example, for a layer two chain

7:29

to say, I've done a certain

7:31

body of work and I can

7:34

provide you a proof to the

7:36

layer one chain that indeed happened

7:38

without having to see everything, you

7:41

know, the entire history of everything

7:43

behind the scenes. That's not privacy.

7:45

That's just compacting the whole body

7:48

of work that was done into

7:50

a very... simple, single, small proof

7:52

that the layer one can use.

7:55

Zero knowledge other use case is

7:57

around privacy as I described for

7:59

sharing attestation about the data without

8:02

actually disclosing the data. So for

8:04

example, let's say I want to

8:06

make an attestation that a certain

8:09

person is KY seed or a

8:11

certain ESG was done, processed, was

8:13

completed successfully or things of that

8:16

nature, I can put a proof

8:18

on chain without having to disclose

8:20

all the information of how I

8:23

got to that evidence. Very, very

8:25

interesting. And so how

8:27

does this come into play now

8:30

with midnight? And what is the

8:32

relationship between what you're incubating under

8:34

the IohK, tell us about what

8:37

IohK has done in the last

8:39

five to 10 years incubating projects

8:42

in the Cardano space?

8:44

Midnight project actually started

8:46

back in 2019. Charles put out

8:49

a kind of a query of

8:51

can blockchain keep a secret. Because

8:53

as we said. crossing the chasms,

8:55

seeing businesses start believing in a

8:58

blockchain and being able to use

9:00

it requires or from their point

9:02

of view requires the blockchain to

9:05

provide some selective disclosure. They don't

9:07

want everything about their business to

9:09

be out in public. And so

9:12

can we offer that? Work has

9:14

been done on that and

9:16

using technology, including zero knowledge

9:18

and other elements. to enable

9:20

that to become a reality,

9:22

which is what midnight is

9:24

now manifesting. But protecting

9:27

the data, believe it or not, was

9:29

the easy part. The harder part

9:31

was actually protecting

9:33

metadata, which is something that has

9:36

not yet been sold, we believe,

9:38

in the market. So you see

9:40

players like... say monero or Z

9:42

cash that attempted to protect transactions

9:44

and metadata by shielding tokens were

9:47

called on by the regulator saying

9:49

like hey this wait a second

9:51

you're you're potentially providing money laundering

9:53

right because I can buy in

9:55

theory right a hundred dollars worth

9:58

of Z cash and in over

10:00

to you and we've just done

10:02

money laundering. There's no way to

10:04

trace what you know the parties

10:06

or what was going on etc

10:08

etc. We just created the channel.

10:10

It's done then becomes a kind

10:13

of a dam if you do

10:15

dam if you don't. If you

10:17

don't protect the shield the token

10:19

that is used to pay for

10:21

the transactions then all the method

10:23

data is out in the public.

10:25

If you shielded then the regulator

10:27

comes and says you're not doing

10:30

the right thing. And we were

10:32

stopped. really onto how to solve

10:34

this. It's like you can't square

10:36

the situation. And then we realized

10:38

that we were just asking the

10:40

wrong question. There is just no

10:42

way to solve it with a

10:44

single token. And the CACs even

10:47

tried to do it with a

10:49

dual sides of the same token

10:51

and the regular system. That's not

10:53

going to work. We needed to

10:55

think out of the box and

10:57

we created a dual token system.

10:59

And why that actually suddenly solves

11:01

the situation. is because you can

11:04

have one token that is completely

11:06

normal, uns shielded, that everybody's comfortable

11:08

with, you know, exchanges, wallets, you

11:10

know, bridges, everybody knows how to

11:12

do that. Regulator are all happy

11:14

with, you know, no, no obfuscation

11:16

there. Holding that first token generates

11:18

a secondary resource, but now that

11:21

I have two assets, two digital

11:23

assets, I can use this secondary

11:25

one that is shielded and put

11:27

all sort of... restrictions on it,

11:29

like it cannot be transferred between

11:31

parties or it decays very quickly

11:33

so it's not a security, doesn't

11:35

have a futures market, it's not

11:38

a commodity. It's really restrictive to

11:40

keep kind of the confines of

11:42

what the regulators requires from a

11:44

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11:46

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details at turbotax.com. you

14:03

think that having two different

14:05

tokens is almost like an

14:08

admission of guilt because the

14:10

regulators still look at the

14:12

fact that you want to

14:15

do privacy as like a

14:17

negative thing and that's why

14:19

CCASH didn't work and why

14:22

Manero kind of is still

14:24

very attractive? I don't think

14:26

so because privacy is not

14:29

a bad word. Regulators actually

14:31

mandate privacy in GDPR, in

14:33

HIPAA, in other places. We

14:36

act are required. to maintain

14:38

the privacy of customers, their

14:40

data, their activity. Oh, I

14:43

like the way you frame

14:45

this. Okay. You're right. What

14:47

the regulators are looking is

14:50

protect privacy in the right

14:52

way, where the requirements of

14:54

disclosure could be done as

14:57

required by law. And of

14:59

course, those vary by jurisdiction,

15:01

but it's not really the

15:04

block chain that needs to

15:06

be compliant. If somebody asks

15:08

me like, you know, Is

15:11

midnight going to be regulatory

15:13

compliant? It's not, that's not

15:15

the right layer that you're

15:18

asking the question. Is it,

15:20

can an application being built

15:22

on midnight be compliant? And

15:25

are we providing the right

15:27

primitives for them to do

15:29

so? If I build an

15:32

application of the faith, where

15:34

do we want to go

15:36

for lunch? That's not a

15:39

regulated activity. That doesn't mean,

15:41

you know, any compliance measurements.

15:44

If I build a defy

15:46

application, perhaps it is. And

15:48

perhaps really depends on where

15:51

that application is running, right?

15:53

What jurisdiction maybe governs their

15:55

operation? What type of activity

15:58

is that? performing and what

16:00

audience it's serving. That intersection

16:02

of these three elements at

16:05

the application level determines what

16:07

regulatory framework they have to be

16:09

abide by. And we just need

16:11

to make sure they have the

16:13

primitives at the blockchain level to

16:15

be able to successfully be compliant

16:18

with those regulations. You're seeing all

16:20

the news lately about the Department of

16:22

Government efficiency hacking things off the

16:24

budget. There's a lot of media

16:26

behind it. The real news that

16:28

is real is that a lot

16:30

of government's technology is outdated and

16:32

old and costs us a lot

16:35

of money to maintain and keep

16:37

secure. Are you seeing these as

16:39

like opportunities for companies like Midnight

16:41

to step in and help the

16:44

larger American government here? I do.

16:46

So we have seen a very

16:48

kind of a hypesory in the

16:50

news around U.S. aid, right? And

16:52

questions being asked about... Are we

16:55

able to track where the money

16:57

flows? I think blockchain as a

16:59

technology provides a trust that

17:01

is not anchored into any

17:03

one party, but is anchored

17:06

in technology and cryptography that

17:08

provides you with a trust

17:10

that everything is kind of

17:12

real? And if we use

17:14

blockchain... or tracking kind of

17:16

payments and spend, there is

17:18

a real opportunity to provide

17:21

that love of transparency and

17:23

integrity. At the same time,

17:25

I don't think the government

17:27

wants all of its transactions

17:29

to be out in the open.

17:31

So you would want to have

17:34

a blockchain that provides you with

17:36

selective disclosure, one that can protect

17:39

kind of the data and the

17:41

metadata. and only disclose it when

17:43

and how is appropriate for

17:46

audits or other purposes. So

17:48

yes. Mandating privacy is a really

17:50

good point because it is true. So

17:52

I'm just thinking like we have our

17:54

health data and what else are other

17:57

places that you can kind of attack.

18:00

So health care is obvious where

18:02

you have a lot of sensitivity

18:04

around private data. Finance is a

18:06

clear kind of winner because financial

18:08

transactions are confidential. And if you

18:10

can see money movement, that is

18:12

probably not something people want to

18:14

share kind of in the public.

18:16

They're even use cases in gaming.

18:18

I'll give you the simplest example.

18:21

You do an online poker, right?

18:23

cards are on the table, some

18:25

cards are held in private and

18:27

so forth. We've seen a lot

18:29

of interest in our test net

18:31

and Devnet people coming in and

18:33

doing a range of things, whether

18:35

from ESG, you know, fuel tracking

18:37

to aiming to defense applications that

18:40

have sensitivity to health care diplomas

18:42

on college. Yeah, they're so fake.

18:44

So I think there are many

18:46

areas in life that have both

18:48

a public side and a private

18:50

side. And if we can provide

18:52

the tooling that allows you to

18:54

have that kind of discretion of

18:56

what do you want to expose,

18:58

who do you want to expose

19:01

to, and not just be completely

19:03

public, we will take blockchain technology

19:05

from being a little bit more

19:07

of a nascent industry to something

19:09

that the rest of the world

19:11

says this is great. we are

19:13

ready to build some innovation and

19:15

take us to the next level.

19:17

It's a really killer application for

19:20

crypto, what we're talking about here,

19:22

because a lot of people still

19:24

don't really think that like the

19:26

decentralized ledger system is valuable enough.

19:28

and kind of going into the

19:30

privacy aspects where, especially the way

19:32

you described Ziki, zero knowledge proofs,

19:34

I think that itself is one

19:36

of the killer apps that the

19:38

kind of the next level technologies

19:41

like what you're building, kind of

19:43

on top of the early blockchain

19:45

technology, like basically what I'm seeing

19:47

is everyone who's already made a

19:49

judgment is very short-sighted. There's still

19:51

a lot of the technology just

19:53

hasn't been. fleshed out yet and

19:55

here we have like practical applications

19:57

for all of it. Indeed and

20:00

I think one big frontier is

20:02

artificial intelligence. Yeah good point. We

20:04

have seen AI gobble up all

20:06

of the public data already and

20:08

we all understand where they're coming

20:10

next. They're coming for our private

20:12

data right in order to further

20:14

improve personalized and get to greater

20:16

value in terms of AI. And

20:18

then the question comes up of

20:21

how can we share private data

20:23

with AI without kind of losing

20:25

control and privacy of our private

20:27

data? We believe zero knowledge is

20:29

a very good way of accomplishing

20:31

that because we can provide attestation

20:33

that the AI can kind of

20:35

read without kind of disclosing the

20:37

actual data. and we believe that

20:40

the marriage between zero knowledge and

20:42

blockchain would allow us to put

20:44

the private data on a trusted

20:46

platform rather than hand it over

20:48

to some third party. I sometimes

20:50

give the example of, you know,

20:52

my medical record is not at

20:54

home with me, right? It's probably

20:56

at the doctor's office that, let's

20:59

be honest, specializes in medicine, not

21:01

in data protection. And so I

21:03

think there is a better way.

21:05

for us to protect private data,

21:07

but get the maximum utility out

21:09

of it and use AI to

21:11

advance, whether it's medicine or knowledge

21:13

or any other area. There's no

21:15

privacy. There's no, I would just,

21:17

I'll give you a perfect example.

21:20

I just got an MRI done

21:22

next rate was traveling. I said,

21:24

can I take the x-ray with

21:26

me when I'm home so my

21:28

doctor can review it and I

21:30

can just, you know, take this

21:32

down the road and I could

21:34

follow up with this and see

21:36

why my backs been hurting. He

21:39

goes, well, you can take it

21:41

on a CD or you can

21:43

take a picture of it. And

21:45

I said, are you kidding me?

21:47

Like, how is that supposed to

21:49

work? So I said, can I

21:51

take the CD? Well, and he

21:53

said it was going to take

21:55

an hour. And I said, I'm

21:57

not waiting an hour. So it

22:00

took a picture of it. So

22:02

I went to my doctor and

22:04

I gave him the picture and

22:06

he said, I need a better,

22:08

it's not high definition enough. So

22:10

I called them and I said,

22:12

I should have taken the CD,

22:14

but do you have it? And

22:16

they said that they don't maintain

22:19

the x-rays in a format where

22:21

it's easily sendable. Like I basically

22:23

have to go back there and

22:25

sit there two hours and wait

22:27

for someone to go through all

22:29

the data, basically pay them. And

22:31

I'm like, this is the worst.

22:33

So I had to redo all

22:35

the rest. I had to get

22:37

in a very specific position to

22:40

get the x-ray done and I

22:42

don't want to do that again.

22:44

That's my story of the medical

22:46

data not being kept. Indeed. And

22:48

it's not just in medicine, it's

22:50

in many other areas. We make

22:52

trade-off, right, between getting the utility

22:54

and keeping our privacy. The biggest

22:56

example that probably everybody does is

22:59

Google search, right? We understand that

23:01

in order to receive search engine

23:03

service. we forfeit any privacy of

23:05

what we search and what we

23:07

are interested in, right? And we

23:09

make that tradeoff or that compromise,

23:11

but imagine if we had a

23:13

better way of where we have

23:15

a say into what we share

23:18

and be able to provide the

23:20

utility, whether to the doctor or

23:22

to Google or to any other

23:24

provider, but not necessarily forfeit ownership

23:26

of our data or our privacy.

23:28

I think that's a really exciting

23:30

future. It would be cool to

23:32

see the AI is the missing

23:34

link and the AI has to

23:36

be behind the zero knowledge wall

23:39

at the same time. If you

23:41

talk about being able to take

23:43

all of our spending data, how

23:45

do our taxes automatically or something

23:47

like that, like I don't want

23:49

to upload that data somewhere, I

23:51

would like it to be done

23:53

on my side of the equation

23:55

and then the tax query work

23:58

could, you know, maybe the tax

24:00

AI could be querying my AI

24:02

and... the relationship between them can

24:04

be secure somehow and just minimize

24:06

all the attack factors. Yes. that's

24:08

one way of doing that. I

24:10

think what we're advocating is that

24:12

an AI kind of an external

24:14

AI, right, could query your attestation

24:16

without you actually giving the data

24:19

itself, right? So you'll just make

24:21

kind of representation about what's your

24:23

situation is and not actually include

24:25

all the information. That works because

24:27

we trust the technology behind zero

24:29

knowledge proofs that they're actually doing

24:31

the work. Well, you don't put

24:33

the actual data on the chain.

24:35

You only put the zero knowledge

24:38

out of the station on chain.

24:40

Let me give you a different

24:42

than I know you like stories,

24:44

so I'll share a little story

24:46

that kind of touched me in

24:48

a way. a couple months ago

24:50

there was a case where a

24:52

director of one of the lock

24:54

chain foundations shared an NFT that

24:56

he was very proud that he

24:59

was able to acquire but another

25:01

hacker on the web saw that

25:03

NFT was able to discern which

25:05

collection it came from was traced

25:07

back to that you know collection

25:09

was found that specific NFT and

25:11

traced it back and found which

25:13

wallet this foundation director held a

25:15

NFT at. The story could have

25:18

ended here with a little bit

25:20

of a Smirk and a laugh.

25:22

However, it turns out that that

25:24

same director was using the same

25:26

wallet also for receiving their payroll

25:28

from the foundation. And so now

25:30

the hacker was able to see

25:32

how much they were getting paid.

25:34

They were able to trace back

25:36

to the wallet of the foundation

25:39

and see what is going on,

25:41

who is getting paid, how much

25:43

they are getting paid, and everybody

25:45

got docked. That's crazy. Worrysome because

25:47

five years from now, Charlie, somebody

25:49

unknown to you and I is

25:51

going to make some judgment call

25:53

that is going to docs everything

25:55

that we've ever done since the

25:58

history of time on every chain,

26:00

right, that is public. If we

26:02

don't start thinking about these things,

26:04

this is going to become an

26:06

issue. So coming back to your

26:08

point with, you know, the medical

26:10

records, et cetera, et cetera, et

26:12

cetera, anything that we put on

26:14

chain will eventually get either tracked

26:17

or cracked, right? We've got quantum

26:19

computing making leaps and bounds on

26:21

deciphering encryption. I don't know how

26:23

much quantum resistant what we encrypt

26:25

and put on chain. is going

26:27

to be forever, you know, safe.

26:29

I don't know even if it's

26:31

safe now. The best way that

26:33

I think we can do to

26:35

protect data, and I don't mean

26:38

just personal, my personal data that

26:40

maybe is not that important, the

26:42

grinder scheme of things, but let's

26:44

think about defense data or some

26:46

other stuff that we can hack

26:48

left and right by China and

26:50

other kind of adversaries, right? If

26:52

we... can't find a way to

26:54

keep that data behind the firewall

26:57

and just put an at the

26:59

station so we don't actually give

27:01

access to data but we can

27:03

still get the utility. We keep

27:05

all will discover new ways where

27:07

our privacy and our security gets

27:09

breached. Iran Barack, thank you so

27:11

much for taking the time and

27:13

coming on the show today. I

27:15

really appreciate it. Fantastic. Thank you

27:18

Charlie. It's been great being here.

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