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2:21

to Chase Down Podcast, part of the

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.com slash Cavs. The Cleveland Cavaliers are

2:40

two and O against the Miami Heat.

2:42

And Evan Mobley is your defensive player

2:44

the year. It is defensive player of

2:46

the year, not podcaster of the year.

2:48

The voters did right by our guy.

2:50

And joining me today is my co -host,

2:52

Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, buddy?

2:55

I'm doing great. It feels great. Justice

2:58

was done at the

3:00

award level. I said

3:02

I wouldn't care about awards ever again.

3:04

And I'm such a liar, such a fraud.

3:06

I really wanted this for Evan. I

3:08

feel like he really earned it. I

3:11

didn't want bad faith

3:14

stuff to take away his

3:16

accomplishment, you know, for

3:18

his second major award nomination of his

3:20

career. And it just feels really good that

3:22

he was rewarded. It feels great to

3:24

see him rewarded. I can hear, you know,

3:26

you talked about how you didn't want

3:28

to care about awards again. I can hear

3:31

how much you care in your voice

3:33

here. You're cracking up. And speaking of your

3:35

voice, we have brought in reinforcements. Friend

3:37

of the podcast, making his return, Jeff Nomina.

3:39

Jeff, how you doing, buddy? Wonderful.

3:43

I can be the Tide Jerome. I

3:45

can jump in here, you know, when

3:47

the two stars get a little beat

3:49

up and try to fill in. So

3:51

also very excited about the Evan Mobley. can

3:54

see I can see yeah, I can

3:56

see on your YouTube. You're trying to

3:58

fill in and you're filling in the

4:00

wrong lane my guy. You got to

4:03

stay in the middle the camera I'm

4:05

super excited to see Mobley when you

4:07

know defensive player of the year Jared

4:09

Allen obviously talked about how the calves

4:11

play ethical hoops and I think one

4:13

thing that doesn't get talked about enough

4:15

when we talk about Evan Mobley is

4:18

he plays ethical defense right so many

4:20

times when we see the elite defenders

4:22

in the league. Think of, you know,

4:24

Lou Dorre, Draymond Green, some of the

4:26

other guys that deserve mention in this

4:28

conversation and deserve votes. A

4:31

lot of the time, we talk about

4:33

how their reputation has allowed them to

4:35

get away with some stuff, right? Like,

4:37

you know, that's probably foul on a

4:39

lot of other guys. There's

4:41

a lot of holding. There's a

4:43

lot of shoving. There's a lot

4:45

of little things they do to

4:47

trick the rules and to give

4:49

themselves an advantage on the defensive

4:51

end. Mobley plays about as clean

4:53

defensively as you could expect anyone

4:55

really. Half of his

4:57

blocks could be classified as steals because

4:59

he's keeping it in play. He's

5:01

sending it to teammates. He's

5:03

not somebody that is putting elbows

5:05

into guys. His ability to

5:07

recover when he does lose that

5:09

first step is almost second to

5:11

none in the NBA. He's just

5:14

a complete freak on the defensive

5:16

end. And I mean that in

5:18

the most complimentary way possible. And

5:20

it's kind of fun because it

5:22

feels like at the beginning of

5:24

his career, he was so toolsy

5:26

and, you know, had all these

5:29

splash plays. But I remember

5:31

early on, we're like, I

5:33

think Jarrett is like still like

5:35

the best conductor for the

5:37

defense. This is like rookie year,

5:40

Evan. And then last year

5:42

is like, oh, they're Drawn

5:44

even like it feels like you know

5:46

Evan's gotten there at the same

5:48

level and now it's the splash plays

5:50

and the communication and the preventing

5:52

plays from even happening and Kind of

5:54

being able to make every single

5:57

play every part of the floor like

5:59

I just feel like he's really

6:01

gone up another level every single year

6:03

Not just in terms of his

6:05

physicality obviously he's much stronger much more

6:07

capable of guarding in the post

6:09

than he was as a rookie, but

6:11

his understanding of the game has

6:14

just gone up and up and up.

6:16

He was a savant when he

6:18

came in. And even savants

6:20

have room to grow. I got to

6:22

ask you guys, because I was just thinking about

6:24

this because we've never set it out loud. I

6:26

don't think on this podcast, at least. Is

6:29

Evan the best defensive player in the

6:31

history of the Cavaliers franchise? Oh,

6:34

my goodness. No, I'm you go first. Answer that

6:36

one. I need a marriage with that. Yeah,

6:39

I'm trying to think back like old, old, you

6:41

know, to the. To the

6:43

Nantes seniors or the Ron Harper's

6:45

you'll try to think back to those

6:47

days, but in like the kind

6:49

of the modern era Yeah, I I

6:51

believe you know, I I can't

6:54

think I should have done some research

6:56

I wasn't expecting to get hit

6:58

with this but I I feel like

7:00

he's the first to win defensive

7:02

players He is the first Cavalier to

7:04

ever win now count if your

7:06

defense is your offense That's a great

7:09

great question, you know the thing

7:11

is I feel like there were years

7:13

that LeBron deserved to win defensive

7:15

player the year. I think he was

7:17

insanely impactful. anchor for those best

7:19

in the league defenses. He

7:22

absolutely was. And as much as

7:24

that, as much as I believe that,

7:26

you know, in my heart and

7:28

soul and that he was deserving of

7:30

being defensive player the year, just,

7:32

you know, was going up against White

7:34

Howard and other really deserving candidates, I

7:37

just think your ability to impact the

7:39

game as a big man defensively exceeds

7:41

anything you can really do on the perimeter.

7:44

And the other thing that always just

7:46

comes to mind is how immediately Evan

7:48

Mobley transformed the Cavs defense. Because the

7:50

Cavs did have Jared Allen for quite

7:53

a bit of that year, you know,

7:55

the year prior to him being drafted. And

7:58

Jared obviously had a very large

8:00

impact on defense. I think he's

8:02

someone that deserves all defensive, you

8:04

know, he deserves, honestly, he deserves

8:06

to make one of those teams.

8:08

He probably won't just because of

8:10

how good Mobley is. But I

8:12

think the way that Mobley transformed

8:14

what was the bottom of the

8:16

league defense into a perennial fantastic

8:18

defense, always in the top 10,

8:20

particularly great when he's on the

8:22

court. That's something that not

8:24

a lot of players can do. And

8:26

that's also not something that you ever

8:28

really expect from young players. You expect

8:30

there to be a prolonged learning curve

8:32

for defensive big men. And that just

8:35

wasn't there for Mobley. You

8:37

know, the things he had to

8:39

learn were more nuanced things rather than

8:41

making his game actually impactful on

8:43

that end rather than having those splash

8:45

plays. Yeah, I

8:47

think I'm willing to say

8:49

it. I really do think he

8:51

might. I don't think I've

8:53

watched a player and just thought

8:55

like this guy has no

8:58

defensive flaws. Quite

9:00

like I've watched Evan. You

9:03

know, I think he is. I think

9:05

he is the. the best defensive player in

9:07

the history of the franchise, at least

9:09

of my adult life. I

9:11

think LeBron is probably number

9:13

two, which goes to show how

9:15

insane LeBron was early in

9:17

his career. And

9:20

like maybe, maybe if I

9:22

had just lived, you know,

9:24

2008 LeBron and then lived

9:26

this year's Mowgli, it would

9:28

be a little closer. But

9:30

like, I just

9:32

feel like to your point,

9:36

Evan immediately came in and created

9:38

a defensive identity for the

9:40

team. And it's crazy

9:42

to think how many

9:44

all -time Cavs greats

9:46

are on this roster

9:48

right now. But, you know,

9:51

Mobley does continue to jump to the top

9:53

of a lot of lists. Yeah.

9:55

And it's not like there's a shortage of

9:57

great defensive players in Cavs history either, right?

9:59

A lot of them... didn't get to watch

10:01

because we're young and that disclaimer needs to

10:03

be thrown on here. But when you talk

10:05

about guys like Larry Nan senior and even

10:07

seen, you know, what Brad Dordi and those

10:09

guys would do in their heyday. Can't

10:12

really, you know, comment to the same way.

10:14

But this is the first time that you've had

10:16

that natural recognition. grinding Nate Thurman tape. Unfortunately,

10:19

it was not. I'm going to

10:21

be honest about where my strengths and

10:23

weaknesses are. That's probably one of my blind

10:25

spots, but this is, you know, the

10:28

first to get that national recognition. Now, I'm,

10:30

were you a little worried that, you

10:32

know, the Dramon push, the media push, the

10:34

voting odds? Where were you at

10:36

kind of throughout this process? Because I

10:38

was so fired up. I was so fired

10:40

up when it first happened. And

10:43

then like recently it felt like it kind of

10:45

calmed back down, but I I

10:47

was like to the point where I didn't want Draymond

10:49

to win no matter what. I was almost okay with

10:51

anyone but Draymond's dance for a little while because just begging

10:53

for it on a podcast felt too sad. I have

10:55

a reason to give it to someone. It

10:58

really did. And the tricky thing with

11:00

these awards is it does feel like

11:03

going into some seasons they've been predetermined

11:05

to some extent or at least there's

11:07

a very strong narrative to start the

11:09

year. I think back to the last

11:11

Three years, really, coming into every season,

11:13

they're like, OK, well, this is the

11:15

year Luca is going to win MVP.

11:18

And he's done things to get himself

11:20

out of that conversation, whether it's some

11:22

things on court or missing the number

11:24

of games or just playing in a

11:26

league with Nick Jokic, which can have

11:28

that effect. Um, but I think to

11:31

Peyton Pritchard in sixth man of the

11:33

year, like that seemed predetermined before the

11:35

year even started. Didn't really matter what

11:37

Tygerome did this season. There was already

11:39

so much momentum and he was such

11:41

a heavy favor coming into the year

11:43

that it really felt like there wasn't

11:46

proper consideration given to anybody else. And

11:48

it kind of felt that way with

11:50

Wemby coming into this season. And a

11:52

lot of people, you know, when I

11:54

listen to national podcasts, they'll talk about

11:56

how You know, Wemby was going to

11:59

win this award. It was a foregone

12:01

conclusion, and, you know,

12:03

this is some sort of

12:05

consolation prize. One thing I

12:07

want to point out, on February

12:09

13th, when Wemby, you know, played

12:11

his last game and had to

12:13

leave with the blood clots, the

12:16

San Antonio Spurs had a 110 defensive

12:18

rating with him on the court, and

12:20

the defense was 5 .4 points better

12:22

with him on the court. When Mobley

12:24

was on the court for the Cavs,

12:26

they had a 106 .8 defensive rating, and

12:28

the defense was 6 .3 points better

12:31

with Mobley on the court versus off. And

12:33

I think it's really important to

12:35

note that that off sample size

12:37

is with Jared Allen, who is

12:39

an all defensive candidate playing there,

12:41

rather than Zach Collins and whoever

12:43

else the Spurs had coming in

12:45

off the bench. Mobley was having

12:47

a larger on -off impact. then

12:49

even Victor Wembenyama. And that's not

12:51

to say that Wemby wasn't a

12:53

deserving candidate or that there wouldn't

12:55

have been an argument for why

12:57

he should win. But I think

12:59

people weren't really looking at the

13:01

numbers the same way, because if

13:03

you're arguing that Wemby's dragging the

13:06

Spurs to some great defense, he

13:08

wasn't. He wasn't having as large

13:10

of an impact as Mowgli. And

13:12

I felt prior to that situation,

13:14

Mowgli deserved to be in the

13:16

conversation a lot more than he

13:18

was at the time. Bro,

13:20

I couldn't agree more. I and

13:22

it's a weird spot in You

13:24

know a discourse argument to not

13:26

be like Wimby's bad a defense.

13:28

That's not what we're saying No,

13:30

and like or that it's a

13:32

bad pick to say that he

13:34

was gonna be the defensive player

13:37

of the year but like the

13:39

degree to which the conversation just

13:41

seemed over Didn't make sense to

13:43

me at all didn't make sense

13:45

to me with Pritchard like and

13:47

It just feels like we kind

13:49

of pick and choose our spots

13:51

on when we're going to really

13:53

lock in on opening up the

13:55

discourse versus shutting it down. And

13:58

yeah, I think Mobley is not

14:00

a by default defensive player of

14:02

the year. I think he was

14:04

the best defensive player in basketball

14:06

this year. Yeah, I

14:08

totally agree. And you know, it's

14:11

frustrating. Some

14:13

awards I think you know when

14:15

it comes to clutch play of the

14:17

year Darius finishing sixth is absurd

14:19

when he was the most efficient clutch

14:21

time scorer he was one of

14:23

the highest you know clutch scores for

14:25

points per game and all that

14:27

kind of stuff I Can understand that

14:29

I can understand voters not you

14:31

know giving as much thought to it,

14:33

but defensive player of the year

14:35

That's prestigious man like there are you

14:37

know contract incentives, which you know

14:39

congratulations to mom for hitting those I

14:42

I think that's one of the benefits of

14:44

what the Cavs did at the deadline

14:46

to get under the luxury tax for this

14:48

season and stop that repeater clock from

14:50

starting. You got basically a really, really

14:53

good team all locked up for future years,

14:55

and you don't have to really worry about

14:57

this. You don't have to worry about these

14:59

guys getting accolades. So I think they're

15:01

in a great position. But defensive player of

15:03

the year, that's an award that deserves proper

15:05

consideration when it comes to the voting. It

15:08

felt a bit like Wemby's. physical skills

15:11

to just kind of outweigh everything else. And

15:13

you talked about Moby coming in, it's

15:15

sort of a savant and that understanding and

15:17

not that Wendy's a slouch on that

15:19

end, but it's physical attributes are just so

15:21

overpowering and it felt like people just

15:23

kind of saw that and went straight for

15:26

it. We're not kind of taking into

15:28

the full account of everything Moby dug out

15:30

there that isn't captured by just being

15:32

massive and blocking shots in the stand. Big,

15:35

big shout out to our guy, Evan.

15:38

It's cool. Seeing them get

15:40

this kind of recognition.

15:42

It's cool seeing, you know

15:44

Kenny in the front runner for

15:46

coach the year And you know, I

15:48

do think it's reflective of the

15:50

expectations of this roster, you know You

15:52

have the coach the year you

15:54

have an all NBA first team candidate

15:57

and Donovan Mitchell you have the

15:59

defensive player the year like You know

16:01

like these there's a reason this

16:03

team is in the title pictures because

16:05

Of all of these contributions up

16:07

and down the roster a third place

16:09

in fourth place in sixth man

16:11

of the year like As much as

16:14

like and I'm certainly guilty of

16:16

this as much as we've kind of

16:18

cry cried You know foul of

16:20

the way the award races have finished

16:22

at the top and in the

16:24

way the narratives have kind of gone

16:26

Like you can't say that the

16:28

guys haven't been well represented at every

16:31

level, you know, like yeah Almost

16:33

every major award the calves are gonna

16:35

finish in the top five four

16:37

in some form or fashion Yeah, I

16:39

think Donovan's going to be a

16:41

top five finalist for you know MVP

16:43

and deserving So I think he's

16:46

gonna be a first team all NBA

16:48

guy It takes you know it

16:50

takes a lot of very talented individuals

16:52

to be as good as the

16:54

Cleveland Cavaliers And I think we saw

16:56

that once again in game two

16:58

Game two Eric Spolstra is one of

17:00

the most infamous things in basketball.

17:03

He always finds a way to steal

17:05

those games. That's where the Boston

17:07

Celtics were, you know, got caught on

17:09

their home court last year against

17:11

Miami in the first round against a

17:13

worse Miami roster, frankly, because it

17:15

was still no Jimmy Butler, but there

17:18

was no Davion Mitchell and there

17:20

was no Andrew Wiggins. You

17:22

know, they always seem to find

17:24

ways to win those games. And, you

17:26

know, to start game two, Miami

17:28

came out. really had the intensity high.

17:31

I thought they played a terrific game

17:33

to start the game. And then the

17:35

Cavs kept their composure. It

17:37

was a big defensive play from Jaren Allen, spiking

17:40

the ball to Darius Garland to get that,

17:42

you know, transitioned a lob to Donovan Mitchell

17:44

that I thought gave a lot of life

17:46

to the team. The crowd started getting back

17:48

into it. It was loud as hell at

17:50

Rocket Arena. It was really,

17:52

really good to see the Cavs respond

17:55

in that way. But then we saw

17:57

Miami do their own responding. Cavs got

17:59

up by 19. Miami made their own

18:01

run and really made a game of it. It

18:04

was concerning. It was concerning to see

18:06

Miami do that just given their history

18:08

of finding ways to steal those games

18:10

on the road. But for the Cavs,

18:12

who once again as the best clutch

18:14

team in the regular season come away

18:16

with a clutch win against the Heat,

18:18

I thought they did a very good

18:20

job of averting disaster in that scenario.

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20:17

I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder

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of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I

20:21

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I never liked being told, oh wow,

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20:53

Jeff, you go first. I got some thoughts, but

20:56

I want to hear what you want to hear what

20:58

you got to say first. I've

21:00

been super impressed with Miami because I

21:02

feel like both games, the Cavs

21:04

have had stretches or played well in

21:06

the way that in the regular

21:08

season put teams away almost immediately. You

21:11

know, that Cavalanch last game and the first

21:13

game just started. I thought they played pretty

21:15

well. We normally see those games

21:17

get out of hand, and I thought

21:19

Miami really clawed and fought back in a

21:21

way that was almost jarring. We're so

21:23

used to just like, you know, seeing the

21:25

CPJ and Luke Travers and the guys

21:27

come in halfway through the fourth because we've

21:29

got a 25 point lead. And so

21:31

I won't say it's concerning, but it was

21:33

just, it was impressive that Miami was

21:35

doing that. We're clearly in for a fight

21:37

for this whole series. And, you know,

21:39

kudos to them because they're not doing it.

21:42

And I don't mean this is

21:44

like slander, but like they're not

21:46

doing it based on like matching

21:48

his talent for talent, right? They're

21:50

doing it in in pretty impressive

21:53

ways. Yeah, I I rewatched the

21:55

game today actually jumped in and

21:57

listened to the dunker spot boys

21:59

do a live rewatch and breakdown

22:01

film and It's always funny, you

22:04

know Justin you are of the

22:06

two of us always the one

22:08

that's like I like having time

22:10

to digest the game Like a

22:12

rewatch and I'm always like let's

22:14

just get the reactions. Let's get

22:17

takes off, you know, and I

22:19

do feel like Last night's game

22:21

was one that really I benefited

22:23

a lot from rewatching Especially the

22:25

first quarter where I left the

22:27

first eight minutes of that game

22:30

thinking the calves played sloppy Unfocused

22:32

didn't play their best ball They

22:34

played fine. They just weren't making

22:36

shots You know and Miami

22:38

was hitting a couple tough ones and

22:40

Miami got to a lead because you

22:42

know not on Not because the caps

22:45

process was so poor just because Miami

22:47

was playing just a little bit better

22:49

So that did kind of change the

22:51

way I felt about the game. I

22:53

left last night Kind of

22:56

feeling Well, they started bad

22:58

it kind of ended bad

23:00

in the middle was good

23:02

and I kind of left

23:05

it being like They played

23:07

three really focused quarters. And

23:10

in the fourth, they started

23:12

speeding up, taking quick shots

23:14

instead of working, kind

23:17

of looking for the home run ball a

23:19

little bit too much. And that did meaningfully change

23:21

the way I felt about the game. Yeah.

23:24

I agree with you. It

23:26

was a travel day for me, so

23:28

I got my rewatching. Carter,

23:31

I'm glad you are seeing the benefits of

23:33

putting in that extra work here. You're

23:35

like that athlete that just finally started lifting

23:37

weights, and I was like, man, this

23:39

is really helping my game here. Man,

23:42

that was a disgusted look on your face, and

23:44

you don't have the beard to hide it anymore.

23:47

I had to get that shot, and it's

23:49

always too much fun to bug you, and

23:51

now I'm not in person to do that.

23:53

But I honestly thought that the Cavs came

23:55

out with a lot of focus on the

23:57

defensive end. I thought they were really making

23:59

hustle plays. I felt that in game one

24:01

as well. But I thought there was another

24:04

level to how they played defensively for the

24:06

majority of this game. The

24:08

slippage began when they were up 19. I

24:10

think they thought they put Miami away

24:12

and they started to kind of have a

24:14

few more lapses, right? There were miscommunications,

24:16

leaving guys open that they didn't intend to.

24:18

Like, you look at some of Miami's

24:20

open shots and, you know, ten of their

24:23

wide open shots so far in the

24:25

series have been bam out of the bio,

24:27

which the Cavs are completely content to

24:29

allow him to take wide open threes. He

24:31

has two of ten so far for

24:33

the series. That's been paying off. But I

24:35

think back to the fourth quarter where

24:38

Darius unnecessarily helped on dam rolling to the

24:40

hoop and left Haywood Highsmith wide open

24:42

in the corner. That's not someone that you

24:44

want to leave open as a shooter.

24:46

You didn't need to help there. Jarrett was

24:48

in that position to do that. There

24:50

were other breakdowns like that. And, you know,

24:52

it really was a perfect storm because

24:55

the calves in the first half, they went

24:57

seven to 10 on their wide open

24:59

threes. In the second half, they went two

25:01

of eight on those wide open threes.

25:03

Miami actually was almost as hot in the

25:05

first half. They were 7 of 11

25:07

on their wide open threes and they were

25:10

6 of 10 in the second. So

25:12

they are shooting wide open threes at just

25:14

a crazy clip in terms of how

25:16

well they're converting. I think, you

25:18

know, you see a team with a losing

25:20

record in the regular season and you may

25:22

not notice that, hey, Miami was actually the

25:24

third best team in terms of percentage on

25:26

converting wide open threes in the regular season.

25:29

So You know, they were at 41 %

25:31

for the regular season. Cavs

25:33

were best in the league at 42%,

25:35

so not far off. So

25:37

they might be a little over their skis,

25:39

but this is a team that can convert those

25:41

looks. And I agree with what

25:43

you said, Carter. I think offensively, the Cavs

25:45

got a little too rushed. I thought they

25:47

were a little isolation heavy. It

25:49

did feel like it was a perfect

25:51

mix of circumstances where There

25:53

were factors within and outside of their

25:55

control down the stretch. I don't

25:57

think, you know, I think they got

25:59

some bad 50 -50 calls that didn't

26:01

go their way. It seemed they

26:03

got a little frustrated with that. Oh,

26:06

Rod Kenny with the challenge, though.

26:09

Oh, man. Our guy. He had

26:11

two incredibly high SAS highlights in

26:13

that game, and I enjoyed both

26:15

of them. They were terrific. But,

26:18

you know, there were Things that didn't go

26:20

their way from that standpoint, they didn't hit

26:22

their open threes, and then their process got

26:24

worse, as you mentioned, Carter, with, you know,

26:26

more isolation and rushing a little bit when

26:28

it came to getting those threes up. Yeah.

26:31

I mean, but this is

26:33

kind of one of those games

26:35

where it's so nice to

26:37

have Don and Mitchell on your

26:39

roster. Like he just, I

26:42

mean, at four threes, I want

26:44

to say, in the fourth

26:46

quarter, just really Ugly

26:48

did up for them and like

26:50

that is so different to me Then

26:52

the 50 -point game against Orlando last

26:55

year where I mean and I

26:57

want to take anything away from that

26:59

50 -point game He was amazing in

27:01

that game, but it was it's

27:03

the difference between You know break glass

27:05

in case of emergency like hey,

27:08

we need a few superstar plays here.

27:10

Just get us there We need

27:12

something to get us over the hump

27:14

Versus like building the whole plane

27:16

out of that. Yeah, you know like

27:18

we kind of got it both

27:21

ways in this game where you have

27:23

the second quarter Cavaliers where the

27:25

ball is humming 11 threes in the

27:27

quarter. We'll talk about that. I'm

27:29

sure more in depth But like then

27:31

you also have the all right.

27:34

We've kind of lost our way We

27:36

need someone just to rely on

27:38

to get us over the hump the

27:40

rest of the way and they

27:42

were able to get that like it

27:44

just feels like If

27:47

you and if the three of us were

27:49

talking about like, what do we want the Donovan

27:51

Mitchell experience to be? Isn't

27:53

this game exactly what it is? Yeah,

27:57

yeah, not selection too. I don't feel like

27:59

he's forcing them He's not disrupting rhythm to

28:01

try to get to those shots. It feels

28:03

like he's found his He's really picking a

28:05

spot. Well, not disrupting other things but understanding

28:07

when he needs to try to come in

28:09

and do that Which I think has been

28:11

very helpful as well. Yeah, it

28:13

was terrific and you know

28:15

the then impressive thing. And

28:18

this is one of those reasons why,

28:20

you know, as a fan, you want

28:22

Donovan to keep shooting. It wasn't shooting

28:24

particularly well going into that fourth quarter.

28:26

I think he was down at like

28:28

35%. Basically, he had hit his threes

28:30

well to that point, but everything else

28:32

on the interior wasn't really working. And,

28:34

you know, he had those nice little

28:36

running back finishes where he brings the

28:39

ball up over his shoulder and hits

28:41

the floater. He hit the threes. just

28:43

really, really came through in the clutch. And

28:45

that's exactly what you want from him, right?

28:48

You want to see that composure. You want

28:50

to see that killer mentality. Cavs

28:52

are fortunate to have two guards

28:54

that really excel in those situations.

28:57

And Donovan did a terrific job there.

29:00

It was a really productive day

29:02

for Donovan, Evan, and Darius.

29:04

I thought all three of them

29:06

were very, very solid in

29:09

this game. Darius didn't have

29:11

the threes dropping. but still had

29:13

an efficient game, you know,

29:15

21 points on 14 shots, helped a

29:17

little bit by those late free throws. But,

29:20

you know, nine assists to one turnover,

29:22

that's terrific to see. He

29:24

made sure that it stayed one turnover

29:26

with a ridiculous hustle play to save

29:28

that ball from going out of bounds. um

29:30

know after he he lost the ball

29:32

yeah i know that's you know it

29:35

would have been a turnover that's that's

29:37

how you save it um but you

29:39

know i i thought he had a

29:41

very very good game and just some

29:43

of those outside shots can drop and

29:45

then evan mobly man like we talk

29:47

about how the calves are leaving bam

29:49

out of bio uh wide open mobly

29:51

you can't leave them open at all

29:53

from three like he has taken those

29:55

shots incredibly confidently Um, and

29:57

it's kind of funny looking

29:59

at how many years. We've

30:01

always heard, you know, BAM is going

30:03

to add a three pointer to his game.

30:05

This is going to be the year.

30:07

I know I brought it up last season,

30:09

but Mobley had hit more threes last

30:11

year than BAM had in his entire career.

30:13

And then, you know, he goes and

30:15

plays a couple of games for Team USA,

30:17

and people automatically believe that Bam was

30:20

going to add a 3 to his game.

30:22

Whereas with Evan Mobley, we wrote off

30:24

the possibility of hitting 3s. You know, when

30:26

the Cavs would struggle, it was, uh,

30:28

you know, where is the ceiling with him

30:30

offensively? He is just such a more

30:32

dynamic player on that end. And, you know,

30:34

we, we debated handle versus three point

30:36

shot. The man added both coming into this

30:38

year. I'm

30:41

impressed with how confident and well he's taking the

30:43

plus you see a lot of guys who maybe

30:45

you have you know success in the regular season

30:47

hitting wide open ones and the playoffs hit and

30:49

You know, they're either left on an island or

30:51

there's a little bit more pressure and they're not

30:53

able to nail those and he is Stepping right

30:55

into him and knock him down. It's not a

30:58

He's not hitting a high percentage on you know

31:00

low volume or super easy shot like he's going

31:02

in there and he's hitting good shots And

31:04

that just changes the map completely. Yeah,

31:06

I think his

31:08

his offense I

31:10

feel like we haven't had a great

31:12

game from Evan yet on the offensive

31:14

side of the floor, you know not

31:17

a tremendous amount of playmaking or Or

31:19

you know just like he hasn't had

31:21

like that takeover stretch yet But like

31:23

the floor has been really high I

31:25

think in both games even though he

31:27

only had nine points in game one

31:29

I thought he did his job perfectly

31:31

fine and that was just a byproduct

31:33

of the three guard I mean your

31:35

three you have your three guards score

31:37

30 points apiece basically Your

31:40

bigs aren't gonna have a

31:42

lot of time or opportunity to

31:44

score So I think he's

31:46

been great on that end and

31:48

then defensively I just think

31:50

he's been freaking fantastic so many

31:53

plays where he just suddenly

31:55

Shuts off a play from happening

31:57

altogether knows when to attack

31:59

knows when to leave ma 'am

32:01

and go help The the rim

32:03

Protection has been really great.

32:05

If I have one quibble, it's

32:07

the defensive rebounding hasn't been

32:09

great. Yep They got beat up

32:11

pretty bad on the offensive

32:13

glass in the fourth quarter and

32:15

you know, he only had

32:18

five defensive boards in this game

32:20

In the last game he

32:22

had I want to say like

32:24

five or six Any a

32:26

half last game, right? Yeah, yeah,

32:28

I only had four you only

32:30

had four so, you know, we're not

32:33

he's not cleaning the glass super

32:35

well And I don't think it's because

32:37

he's just getting switched out onto

32:39

guards every possession. Um, but

32:41

he's also wrestling a bear in bam

32:43

out of bio. So I don't know. I

32:45

mostly I've been really, really happy with

32:47

Evan's game. Yeah. And part of that, sorry

32:49

to cut you off there. But one

32:51

thing I wanted to mention that fourth quarter

32:53

was there was a stretch there where

32:55

Miami was getting offensive rebounds. And I thought

32:57

part of that was just a product

32:59

of being too small. We had Sam Merrill

33:01

at small four to an Icicle Coro

33:03

at the four. I think Ty Jerome was

33:05

out there with another guard, and we

33:07

gave up a few opportunities there. There

33:10

were times where, you know, Sam and

33:12

Isaac were both really competing to get

33:14

the defensive rebound, and they just weren't

33:16

large enough for it, right? Like, Sam

33:18

would get a hand on it, and

33:20

the Miami player was still coming down

33:22

with it just because they were bigger

33:24

in that stretch. I think

33:26

Miami is a team that you

33:28

can go small against, but I thought

33:30

that was kind of an extended

33:32

stretch where they were just a little

33:34

bit too small. Kenny switched things

33:36

up a little bit, subbing Evan out

33:38

for Jarrod and bringing in Max

33:40

Struse for Sam Merrill, but Mobley didn't

33:42

get the benefit from that. And

33:44

I think there are tweaks that you

33:46

could potentially make here to round

33:48

that out, but I think some of

33:50

it is the overall ecosystem, right?

33:52

It's never, or it's very

33:54

rarely when it comes to defensive

33:56

rebounding about the one -on -one matchups,

33:58

it really is a team effort

34:00

to secure those rebounds. Yeah,

34:03

it's it's just a thing worth keeping

34:05

an eye on Miami hasn't been great on

34:07

the offensive glass neither game So it's

34:09

not like a big problem or anything, but

34:11

Miami's also not that good at that.

34:13

So I Don't know just a thing to

34:15

keep an eye on And then do

34:17

you think it limits his offense a little

34:20

bit not getting the defensive? So much

34:22

of his offense is bringing the ball up

34:24

getting a man I'm going from the

34:26

basket and using its length. So I don't

34:28

do his best Two of his

34:30

best non three plays were the coast to

34:32

coast plays. Right. So without those rebound, you

34:34

know, it's just it's harder to get him

34:36

going and finding that moment. That's

34:38

a really good point because, you know, he's

34:40

really expanded his game. Like that goes back

34:42

to that point, whether it's, you know, the

34:44

three point shot, the handle, he's able to

34:47

hit the mid range shot. He's obviously terrific

34:49

at finishing at the rim. And to your

34:51

point, he can get those defensive rebounds and

34:53

turn that into a coast to coast opportunity.

34:56

When you can. Score in

34:58

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37:15

I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder

37:17

of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I

37:19

don't know about you, but, like, I

37:21

never liked being told, oh, wow,

37:23

you look so good for your age.

37:25

Like, why even bother saying that?

37:27

Why don't you just say you look

37:29

great at any age, every age?

37:31

That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about.

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We create products that make you

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feel confident in your skin at the

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Beauty, beautiful skin at

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at MeaningfulBeauty .com. One

37:50

thing that Good. I

37:52

was gonna take us... Can I

37:54

take a minute? to give Sam Merrill

37:56

some flowers. Yeah, go

37:58

for it. I feel like post

38:01

all star break, I

38:03

was someone who, I

38:05

mean, I don't think I went

38:07

super aggressive with it, but like reading

38:09

between the lines, I was someone

38:11

who was like, with the way

38:13

the roster changed after picking up DeAndre.

38:15

It's a lot of minutes for Sam of

38:17

the three. I don't know about that.

38:19

I'm worried about being a little too small. You

38:22

know, maybe, you know, I

38:24

was advocating for more Isaac minutes.

38:26

This has been a unbelievable

38:28

Sam Merrill series so far. He

38:31

is hitting his shots. He

38:33

is doing all the little things. He's

38:35

moving the ball. He's rebounding. He

38:37

is being left on

38:39

Tyler Hero one -on -one and

38:42

doing a great job

38:44

fighting over screens, staying connected,

38:46

allowing the cab's defensive

38:48

shell to remain in place.

38:51

Like... if there's one thing the Cavs

38:53

have done really well on defense

38:55

just haven't left their shell for two

38:57

games really and a lot of

38:59

that has to get you have to

39:01

give a lot of credit to

39:03

the point of attack defenders and If

39:05

you were to tell me Kenny's

39:07

gonna put Sam on hero a lot

39:09

When he's on the floor like

39:11

as the primary guy not a guy

39:13

that gets switched on to him

39:15

But that's just his assignment and he'll

39:18

do a good job like damn

39:20

what a win And, uh, and Sam

39:22

gets, I think we need to

39:24

really give him his flowers because he's

39:26

giving them way better playoff minutes

39:28

than I was expecting. Yeah.

39:30

No, no. What is your impression of

39:32

what Sam's done so far in the

39:35

series? Yeah, it's just another weapon.

39:37

It's another way to loosen up the defense. And, you know, having

39:39

these guys that can hang, even

39:41

if they're at like a physical

39:43

disadvantage is so. Damn

39:46

helpful. Like I won't want to pivot off

39:48

of Sam, but you know, I think we've seen

39:50

the same thing from Darius where even if

39:52

he's got a side that's advanced he's playing top

39:54

He's saying he's doing assignment. He's not needing

39:56

as much help and and it just Allowed them

39:58

to do so much more to a point

40:00

on not having to leave their shelf They're not

40:02

having to overreact and I haven't over helped

40:04

her do anything and and you know We were

40:06

talking about being small on the boards, but

40:08

they're not feeling it on the defensive end. I

40:10

don't think Yeah. And the funny

40:12

byproduct of having Sam as the

40:14

primary defender on Tyler Hero is, Tyler's

40:16

kind of tested the waters there of

40:19

can I gain an advantage here? And

40:21

if he wasn't the primary defender,

40:23

you're bringing in whoever Sam is guarding

40:25

as the screener on that set

40:27

and looking to get a switch there.

40:29

Whereas now it's straight up isolation. Tyler

40:32

here was probing for a bit,

40:34

doesn't gain an advantage. They're not bringing

40:36

in a screener to, you know,

40:38

muck things up and confuse things defensively.

40:40

The calves just managed to burn,

40:42

you know, five, six seconds of a

40:45

24 second shot clock in an

40:47

isolation situation where they haven't had to

40:49

rotate as well. So when you

40:51

have guys that hold up that well

40:53

in those situations, it makes a

40:55

big, big difference. And we joked about

40:57

the parallels between Sam Merrill and

40:59

Duncan Robinson in terms of how they're

41:02

used offensively, how they generate fire

41:04

drills on the defensive end of the

41:06

floor. A big difference

41:08

between the two, Sam holds up

41:10

much better defensively. When the Cavs attack

41:12

Duncan Robinson, when they put him

41:14

in actions, Wait, when they're, you know,

41:16

running their double drags and things

41:18

that they do to get guys like

41:20

Tyler Hero and Duncan Robinson in

41:22

those actions, there's miscommunications, there's breakdowns,

41:25

there's failures to navigate the screens. That

41:27

is not been the case with Darius

41:29

Garland, with Sam Merrill and some of

41:31

these other guys on the perimeter. They've

41:33

done a really, really good job of

41:35

navigating those scenarios. One last thing

41:37

I'll say about Sam and we can move on to

41:39

other topics. The other thing that

41:41

him holding up so well on the

41:43

defensive end of the floor, has done

41:46

for them is you don't have to

41:48

take anything off the floor. Like

41:50

if Sam wasn't doing all

41:52

those jobs as well as he

41:54

was doing them, I would

41:56

be sitting here thinking, okay,

41:59

do they need to give

42:01

Isaac more run to improve

42:03

the defensive toughness of their

42:05

lineups? And are they,

42:07

is the offense going to be

42:09

able to deal with that drop off

42:11

and shooting from Sam to Isaac?

42:13

And instead, you just don't have to

42:16

worry about it. You can just

42:18

say, we'll just play Sam and until

42:20

the defense stops, you know,

42:22

becomes a problem. Yeah. And, and like,

42:24

so he just gets a lot of credit

42:26

for being a guy who is additive

42:28

and isn't taking anything off the table for

42:30

them right now. Yeah, I agree. And

42:32

I think looking at the stats so far

42:34

in this series. Think they're

42:36

shooting regression. That's due for both of

42:39

these teams. I don't think the calves

42:41

are going to shoot that well from

42:43

three for an entire series I don't

42:45

think Miami's gonna shoot that well from

42:47

three for an entire series has currently

42:49

have a 133 offensive rating and a

42:51

116 .5 defensive rating I'd say you can

42:53

almost knock off like seven points from

42:56

both of those numbers just to account

42:58

for shooting You know regression I feel

43:00

like the defense has been better than

43:02

the results and the offense has been

43:05

a little better than the process, just

43:07

with how well they're shooting overall.

43:09

But, you know, they've done a really,

43:11

really good job. I

43:13

feel overall defensively. There

43:15

was that slippage in the fourth quarter,

43:17

but for the most part, I feel really

43:19

good about how they're playing on that

43:21

end. It's just going to come down to

43:23

cleaning up some of those little things

43:25

in the margin, right? Whether it's making sure

43:27

you're securing those defensive rebounds, making sure

43:29

there aren't those miscommunications and you keep your

43:31

foot on the gas. when you have,

43:33

you know, the lead, that's going to be

43:35

really important because this Miami team never

43:37

quits. I actually thought it was really interesting

43:39

that Don and Mitchell spoke to that

43:41

about how this is probably good for them

43:43

in terms of the health of the

43:45

series overall that they had to win the

43:47

way they did rather than, you know,

43:49

game two against Orlando last year, which was

43:51

a laugh or just like game one.

43:53

and they weren't really expecting the punch that

43:55

they ended up getting thrown in game

43:57

three. You're going to expect that now with

43:59

the Miami Heat, and I think that

44:01

puts them in a better position to go

44:03

up 3 -0 in the series and learn

44:05

from their mistakes of last season. Not

44:07

only are they going to expect the counter

44:09

punch, I also think they have tape. They

44:12

have a fourth quarter of tape, tilt that

44:14

and go, okay guys, this

44:17

good tape, this bad tape. You

44:19

know like and there is value in

44:21

that, you know, we always say

44:23

it autopsy is nice having a dead

44:25

body to look at gives you

44:27

something so if you get to have

44:29

that without losing All the better,

44:31

you know, and I'm not saying it's

44:33

like it's awesome that the calves

44:35

didn't have a great fourth quarter against

44:37

Miami It's obviously you'd rather them

44:39

just win every game by 20, but

44:41

like there is value in they

44:43

had to they kind of lost their

44:45

way for a minute and Now

44:48

the staff has something to really like, you

44:51

know, a counterbalance,

44:53

really, for what they've

44:55

done so well

44:57

through two games. I

45:00

want to ask you this,

45:02

Nam, because you are a

45:04

fellow angster. We got happy

45:06

-go -lucky lad over there who

45:08

just never worries about anything.

45:11

How relieved are you that the

45:13

offense has been this good?

45:15

One thirty seven point five offensive

45:17

rating game one one twenty

45:20

eight point seven in game two

45:22

How relieved are you that

45:24

against a top ten defense the

45:26

calves are scoring with relative

45:28

ease? It's

45:31

incredible because I think we all have

45:33

a lot of scars From two years ago

45:35

especially but even Orlando and stuff last

45:37

year, you know where things got bogged down

45:39

So there's always that little kind of

45:41

question of the regular season was great. We

45:43

were a monster But when

45:45

it starts happening, we start having bolts around

45:47

the other side, scheming for you. And when you

45:50

start, you know, the bullets start flying, they're

45:52

going to happen. And it is so reassuring that

45:54

we're seeing it. I mean, the guards, it's

45:56

just been incredible. You know, I still being able

45:58

to do that in game one was absolutely

46:00

incredible. Darius being this good has been incredible, thought

46:02

of him finding his moments and still having

46:04

like hit on Superman Cape has been incredible. So

46:06

it definitely is reassuring going forward, right? I'd

46:08

love to see them. This is

46:10

not created because shooting like 50 % from

46:13

three left game, but do you feel

46:15

like they're a little bit perimeter heavy right

46:17

now? Like the bigs are not getting

46:19

a whole and I understand bam and wear

46:21

tough matchups But even Mowgli had what

46:23

10 shots and six of them were threes

46:25

last game like we are not Getting

46:27

into paint a whole lot, you know our

46:29

buddy and former editor -in -chief at fear

46:31

the sword Conrad brought this to our attention

46:33

in one of our many group chats

46:36

to discuss the calves but If you look

46:38

at the frequency in terms of how

46:40

many shots the Cavs took at the rim,

46:43

game two against Miami was their

46:45

lowest of the season. It was

46:47

9 .3%. Game one was their fourth

46:49

lowest of the season at 14

46:51

.6%. So out of 84 games,

46:53

the number one and number four

46:55

lowest frequency games in terms of

46:57

shots at the rim have come

46:59

in the playoffs. When you

47:01

look at the regular season, the

47:03

median kind of frequency for the

47:05

calves of rim shots is about

47:07

32%. So you're getting, you know,

47:09

you're you've cut that down to

47:11

a third. And I do feel

47:13

like particularly in game one, I thought

47:15

they did a really good job of

47:17

getting into the teeth of the paint.

47:20

I thought they were really getting downhill

47:22

at will. Maybe just a lot of

47:24

those turned into kickouts for three pointers

47:26

as the Miami Heat defense scrambled. But

47:28

I do feel like there are opportunities

47:30

available. And in particular, I

47:32

feel like there is, you know, some low

47:34

hanging fruit when it comes to getting

47:36

Jared Allen involved offensively because I feel like

47:38

when they have, he's delivered. Like he's

47:40

been efficient in the series. He's been great

47:43

on both ends of the court. I

47:45

think that they could do more to

47:47

get some easier buckets there because there is

47:49

going to be that shooting regression in

47:51

this series. And one of the ways you

47:53

can counteract that is by getting those

47:55

high quality shots at the rim that they

47:57

were able to convert all season long

47:59

at a really well good rate. Yeah,

48:02

I mean, ideally you want the balance,

48:04

but like there is also, it's hard

48:06

to ask them to get to the

48:08

rim too much when things are going

48:10

this well, you know, when the three

48:12

point shots are falling the way they

48:14

are. And that is, I

48:16

do feel like they're generating with

48:18

the exception of the zone possessions where

48:20

It is a lot more side -to

48:23

-side passing, which, you

48:25

know, more power to them. I

48:27

don't think Miami can play zone

48:29

against the steam consistently. I

48:31

think the shooting talent's just too high. But

48:34

I think they are getting downhill

48:36

enough that I'm not like... I

48:38

don't feel like they're playing Celtics

48:40

ball here, I guess, is

48:42

the crux of the tree I'm barking

48:44

up. So it's like... I'm not that

48:46

worried about the shot profile. I think

48:48

a lot of that's just gonna even

48:50

out as My amy starts saying we

48:52

got to stop the threes like we

48:54

got to do whatever we can and

48:56

then you know Then the the rumble

48:58

downhill is gonna start coming for the

49:00

for the team and that's I don't

49:02

actually care how we get to our

49:04

130 offensive rating As long as it's

49:06

coming with a team's trying to take

49:08

something away so they do the other

49:10

things so well that they try to

49:12

take that away, and then open up

49:14

the thing that they were trying to

49:16

take away in the first place. Like,

49:18

great outcome for me. Do you agree

49:20

with what I said, though, about getting

49:22

Jared Moore involved? Because I don't feel

49:24

like Miami's doing anything to take him

49:26

away. Like, BAM is getting the mobili

49:28

assignment. Whether it's Kallel Ware or, you

49:30

know, Andrew Wiggins, that's Power Ford, I

49:32

feel like you can create an advantage

49:35

there, or just not even probing to

49:37

find out if we can create one,

49:39

in my opinion. Um...

49:41

I just, I've always felt like

49:43

Jared is a symptomatic thing, you

49:45

know, like, like he

49:47

just gets his stuff within the flow.

49:49

And like, I think

49:51

that if things are bogging

49:54

down, they should try to do

49:56

that. But if things aren't

49:58

bogging down, I just don't see

50:00

a ton of need to change

50:02

what they're doing. I

50:04

do wonder if Callell Ware is gonna get taken

50:06

out of the series soon. Maybe

50:09

that's why we're not doing it.

50:11

We're trying to keep him on the

50:13

court Yeah, I just you know,

50:15

he's uh, and I wonder if that'll

50:17

change things a little bit where

50:19

um, you know BAM as

50:21

a romer does make it a

50:23

little harder for the two

50:25

bigs to just operate with impunity.

50:28

Mm -hmm. Um, so like I

50:30

don't I don't know. I'm

50:32

just not that pressed and if

50:34

I see more quarters like

50:36

in game two where it was

50:38

like 25 points

50:40

24 points 28 points Okay,

50:42

sure. Let's start tweaking things But

50:44

for now, I'm generally okay

50:46

with it fun fact. No, I'm

50:49

break the tie here Who's

50:51

your favorite child Carter and myself?

50:53

Oh, where do you fall in this out of debate? Well,

50:56

I mean, I kind of set this up with you

50:58

know, they shot 50 % so it seems and crazy to

51:00

be like they really taken too many threes But I do

51:02

think when things got bogged down Courage

51:04

your point like they should be opening up

51:06

other things. I don't think they were going

51:08

to the other things I think they kind

51:10

of got back, you know in that same

51:12

rhythm where they couldn't break out of that

51:15

So that's what I want to see the

51:17

ability to pivot when it stops working, you

51:19

know to your point like the shooting Russians

51:21

gonna happen Should that open things up? Yeah,

51:23

but they still have to do it. They

51:25

still have to pivot and I said this

51:27

post game last night of just like I

51:29

do think your brain kind of breaks when

51:31

you hit 11 threes and a quarter and

51:33

you kind of forget how to do any

51:35

other way because it feels so good to

51:37

play that way. That, you

51:39

know, I think it's hard

51:41

when you do cool off playing

51:43

that style to kind of

51:45

refind your footing. So it's fair.

51:48

And I think, like always, you

51:50

represent a healthy middle of the two

51:52

arguments. I do want

51:54

to ask real real quick. What

51:57

do you think the Cavs offensive rating was in the

51:59

second quarter? Oh,

52:02

165. Jeff?

52:06

175. That was insane. 113.

52:08

179 points. Oh my

52:11

goodness. Both went low. Wow.

52:14

true shooting of 90%. It's pretty

52:16

cool that the calves have

52:18

the number one and number two

52:20

highest scoring quarters from a

52:23

three point perspective. You know,

52:25

do you think at some point we got

52:27

two really good Kenny Atkinson sideline moments on

52:29

camera? Do you think during the second quarter,

52:31

there was one that was missed where he

52:33

turned and looked at Damari Carroll and was

52:35

like, I remember way more fun on this

52:37

side. Yeah, it's much, much more fun when

52:40

this is not happening to us. Do you

52:42

guys feel like that happened? We

52:44

need a Kenny cam game three. We just need like

52:46

just like the picture picture kind of thing, like just

52:48

Teddy the whole time. I

52:50

love the idea of a Kenny

52:52

Cam. I need picture -in -picture, though,

52:54

the entire time. That's a great

52:56

proposal. We absolutely need to do

52:58

that. I did find it

53:00

to be interesting. One of the things

53:02

we talked about pre -game was, do the

53:04

calves emphasize getting out in transition a little

53:06

more? Do they push the pace after

53:08

stops? And I felt like they certainly did

53:10

in this game. Game two

53:12

was played seven possessions faster

53:14

than game one was, up to

53:16

94 .5. uh in terms of

53:19

blistering 94 you know it

53:21

was uh it was uh still

53:23

you don't play up basketball

53:25

but quicker than before a 20

53:27

increase and they're still like

53:29

30 lower than regular season league

53:31

average yeah and i looked

53:33

into it i was like what

53:36

was the fourth quarter considerably

53:38

slower, not really. It was a

53:40

92 pace. You expected to

53:42

slow down a little bit overall,

53:44

94 for the first half,

53:46

95 for the second half. So

53:48

it was a pretty consistent

53:50

pace throughout. But I did

53:52

find that to be interesting that the calves were

53:55

getting out in transition. They were pushing. Obviously,

53:57

you know, those transition threes that

53:59

lunatics like Max Drew, Sam Merrill

54:02

and Ty Jerome take are going

54:04

to help boost those numbers. But

54:06

I do think that it's important

54:08

because you want to find ways

54:10

to combat the variance game with

54:12

Miami. I think there is a

54:14

lot of intention from their side

54:16

to slow things down to limit

54:18

the number of possessions because if

54:20

both teams are getting, you know,

54:23

110 possessions, if that's what the

54:25

games played at, You're

54:27

not going to be susceptible to variants there.

54:29

You're not going to be able to score

54:31

as consistently as the calves are. There's just

54:33

too many opportunities for you to make mistakes.

54:35

Is Miami? I think that this

54:37

is done with intent. And when we talk about

54:39

pace, it really does take two to tango. Get

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device. Yeah,

56:53

it's interesting. Miami is going to

56:55

try to drag things down. I

56:57

do think, you know, the full

57:00

court pressure from both teams is

57:02

also tracking things down. You

57:04

know, Paola Larson picking

57:06

up Ty Jerome, 94 feet.

57:10

And by the way, who

57:12

had Ty Jerome gets trapped

57:14

at half court on their

57:16

bingo card? You know, the

57:18

fourth quarter and the second

57:20

half just occupied so much

57:22

of my brain, I had

57:24

forgot about that until the

57:26

rewatch. What a

57:28

sign of respect. That is

57:30

something that Peyton Pritchard is not going

57:32

to see in the playoffs, where you get

57:34

hard -trapped and blitzed at half court. They're

57:37

just throwing bodies and bodies and bodies of

57:39

Ty Jerome to get it out of his hands.

57:42

That is nuts. On a team with

57:44

Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, the guard

57:46

that faces that is the guy coming

57:49

in off the bench. That's

57:51

unbelievable, but it just goes to show

57:53

you how much Miami fears what he

57:55

can do. A lot of those

57:57

minutes are coming with those second unit

57:59

lineups, right? Where Miami doesn't feel as

58:01

confident with who they have on the

58:03

floor defensively. It makes sense that they

58:05

basically take a kitchen sink approach to

58:07

stop another tie -cavalange. Well,

58:09

Ty had a bad game, which is

58:12

the funny thing. You know, it

58:14

goes two of eight, shorts a bunch

58:16

of floaters, but still finishes plus

58:18

10 just because of his general vibe,

58:20

man. His general tiness. General

58:23

tiness, you know, had a much better game.

58:25

off the bench. Our boy DeAndre

58:27

Hunter, a big part of that second

58:29

quarter Cavalange. Jeff, what'd you think about him? Yeah,

58:32

it's nice having, you know, he and Max, what

58:34

I think of the two guys, well, and Sam,

58:36

who just pull immediately and don't need a lot

58:38

of space to do it. And I think that's,

58:40

that just opens up so much. And you've got

58:43

guys who aren't scared to take, you know, one

58:45

inch of space and try to get a shot

58:47

up. And I think that having another one, a

58:49

guy at his side, especially, that

58:51

can help space out and do that

58:53

just changes. They're just impossible

58:55

to guard. Like, it's often just impossible to

58:57

do anything. Yeah, it's...

58:59

I was happy to see

59:02

DeAndre hit those shots. How

59:04

do you guys feel about how

59:06

he's played defensively? Because I haven't

59:08

felt him in a big way

59:10

defensively. Maybe, you know, some of

59:12

that is... Miami doesn't really have

59:14

perimeter initiators. Like, Andrew Wiggins is

59:17

looking to create for himself. And

59:19

even at that, there's some limits to what he

59:21

can do. But then I looked

59:23

at the numbers have lined up that

59:25

much either. Yeah. And then I looked

59:27

at the numbers. The cows have a

59:29

92, you know, defensive rating with the

59:31

Andre on the floor. It's one of

59:33

the biggest on off, you know, in

59:35

the positive differentials on the team. I

59:38

just hadn't felt it a whole lot.

59:40

But maybe this is me picking nets,

59:42

right? But I think him hitting shots

59:44

offensively and getting on track and playing

59:46

with a confidence he did. That was

59:48

a really nice sign to see. And

59:50

our guy Isaac hit his only three

59:52

of the night as well. So that

59:55

was also a good sign. I think

59:57

the Andre has been pretty good physically.

59:59

He's been fighting when he gets switches,

1:00:02

fighting for boards. He had one where he

1:00:04

was kind of hand fighting with Calal Ware

1:00:06

and got the ball on a rebound. You

1:00:08

know, I I wouldn't say

1:00:11

I feel like he's been, you

1:00:13

know, a top six, top

1:00:15

seven guy for them. But like.

1:00:17

just goes to speak to

1:00:19

the luxuries of this roster where

1:00:22

DeAndre's just been okay. He

1:00:24

wasn't good in game one, I guess. But

1:00:26

even in game two, he was

1:00:28

just okay, but was still meaningfully

1:00:30

part of swinging the game. So

1:00:33

I don't know. He hasn't

1:00:35

had his playoff moment yet

1:00:37

by any means, but the

1:00:39

fact that it doesn't really

1:00:41

matter is pretty nice. Yeah.

1:00:45

We talked about whether or not we'd see

1:00:47

more of those kind of end of bench

1:00:49

guys. We didn't see a whole lot more

1:00:51

of them. DeAndre obviously got a little more

1:00:53

burn than he had in game one. I

1:00:56

was happy to see Okoro hit his only

1:00:58

three of the game, but it was funny.

1:01:00

It almost felt like a flip from game

1:01:02

one where I thought Okoro was doing a

1:01:04

lot of little things in game one. I

1:01:06

thought his defense was very strong. It

1:01:09

was not strong in game two. Davion

1:01:11

cooked him like three times. Yeah, and that

1:01:13

was a big part of that Miami

1:01:15

run and you know Davion Mitchell is not

1:01:17

someone that normally has that kind of

1:01:19

juice off the bounce I Don't I'm not

1:01:21

used to seeing eyes that kind of

1:01:23

get caught in those spots. I think he

1:01:25

can certainly play better but It was

1:01:27

just one of those 21 for Davion so

1:01:29

far in the series by the way

1:01:32

I did not expect to be sick of

1:01:34

Davion Mitchell Well,

1:01:36

I was going into the series. I was

1:01:39

not circling him like, oh, I'm going to

1:01:41

be mad at that guy for a couple

1:01:43

of games. Like this is just he's frustrating.

1:01:45

He's been it's been great. Yeah, it just

1:01:47

stood out to me because I think back

1:01:49

to even, you know, previous playoff games that,

1:01:51

you know, basically the struggles that Isaac has

1:01:53

had in the playoffs never really come on

1:01:55

the defensive end. Like he's been really good

1:01:57

in that Nick series. He gave them good

1:01:59

minutes on that end against Orlando and Boston.

1:02:02

He's given them good minutes on that end.

1:02:04

So for him to have you know a

1:02:06

couple possessions where he wasn't on and he

1:02:08

was a step slow Really stood out because

1:02:10

that that was a decent part of that

1:02:12

Miami run, right? They they were getting some

1:02:14

pretty good looks in the lineup where was

1:02:16

he and Donovan out there So just one

1:02:18

of those things that I wanted to note

1:02:20

One of the things Zach will actually brought

1:02:22

up on in his podcast is that he'd

1:02:25

like to see a little bit more time

1:02:27

from for the cast starters together When it

1:02:29

comes to the playoffs I looked into it

1:02:31

on how often those guys play together in

1:02:33

terms of the Core 4 in the regular

1:02:35

season. It's 14 minutes per game, which is

1:02:37

nuts that that's where it's at. In the

1:02:39

playoffs, it's up to 17. Miami

1:02:41

doesn't really have a core lineup in

1:02:43

the same way, but I think the closest

1:02:45

thing to it would be the Bam

1:02:48

Hero and Wiggins combo. They're playing about 21

1:02:50

minutes per game, so about 4 minutes

1:02:52

per game more than the Cas Core 4.

1:02:54

Do you agree with that assessment? Where

1:02:56

do you guys kind of come out in

1:02:58

terms of the minute load for the

1:03:00

cast most important players. I

1:03:03

just kind of feel like

1:03:05

they've got to lose minutes more.

1:03:07

They've got to have lineups

1:03:09

that aren't working consistently before I'm

1:03:11

going to ask Kenny to

1:03:13

change anything. You know, I

1:03:15

think if you started the playoffs,

1:03:18

I would have said, yeah,

1:03:20

I'd like to see him go down to nine

1:03:22

just to make sure everyone gets these reps

1:03:24

for like, they're getting so

1:03:26

like, okay, you could take Isaac

1:03:29

and Dean 16 minutes, reapportion

1:03:31

those to the core, give them

1:03:33

more run. I thought Dean

1:03:35

was awesome defensively in his

1:03:37

six minutes. Just wrestling

1:03:39

bam out of bio, every possession

1:03:41

up and down the floor, you

1:03:44

know, just making heady plays. I

1:03:47

think Isaac needs that run from a confidence

1:03:49

perspective. So it's like, yeah, you could do that.

1:03:51

Those are your two lowest minute guys. 16

1:03:53

minutes isn't very much you just take those shifts

1:03:56

reapportion them to the starters and you know

1:03:58

Still no one's gonna be much higher than 35

1:04:00

But like is it worth it right now?

1:04:02

I say no Yeah, and what you're learning about

1:04:04

the other guys is valuable, right? Like I

1:04:06

don't know what more minutes from the starters out

1:04:08

the series was in trouble and like if

1:04:10

we were Work, you know if we were struggling

1:04:12

and down. Yeah, I'd be calling for but

1:04:15

right now we're learning more about You know, we

1:04:17

just talked about Sam for a while. Like,

1:04:19

that's great to learn. We need to see that.

1:04:21

We need to understand what's happening when we

1:04:23

put those guys in. So, yeah, I'm not worried

1:04:25

about it now, but it's, you know, to

1:04:27

my other point, like, you have to see, you

1:04:29

want them to do it when it's time

1:04:31

to do it to make that pivot. Like, if

1:04:34

we are in trouble, yeah, I think that's

1:04:36

a little ever old, but right now I'm not

1:04:38

worried about it. Yeah. And,

1:04:40

you know, breaking those numbers down just

1:04:42

a little further, 13 of those minutes

1:04:44

per game are coming with Max Drew's

1:04:46

three minutes per game with Deandre Hunter

1:04:48

as kind of the fifth guy between

1:04:50

the core four. Those minutes have come

1:04:52

to close out first halves so far. That

1:04:55

seems to be the rotation Kenny's using. I'd

1:04:57

be interested to see if DeAndre can get

1:04:59

some run with those guys in the second

1:05:01

half at all. If that is a potential

1:05:03

closing lineup, that hasn't been the way that

1:05:06

he's gone with it. But

1:05:08

for the most part, I'm fine with

1:05:10

it. Let's not wear the guys out

1:05:12

this early in the playoffs. If

1:05:14

there's ways that you can still comfortably

1:05:16

keep their minutes down and manage things.

1:05:18

That's important because you never know when

1:05:20

a freak play can happen, right? Like

1:05:22

Darius looked like with two minutes to

1:05:25

go after blowing a defensive assignment, tried

1:05:27

to respond with a closeout. And I

1:05:29

think he may have stepped on a

1:05:31

fan's foot on the sideline. It was

1:05:33

limping pretty hard to end the game.

1:05:35

You want to avoid those situations, right?

1:05:37

Like that's the flip side of what

1:05:39

we were saying. We were happy that

1:05:41

they did face a test and they

1:05:43

get some film of things not going

1:05:45

well. you having those guys

1:05:48

out there late in games opens up

1:05:50

the possibility that something like that can

1:05:52

happen. So, you know, it's obviously a

1:05:54

good thing that there's two games or

1:05:56

two days off between these games. Hopefully,

1:05:58

you know, everything's fine with Darius. But

1:06:01

for the most part, I'm pretty okay

1:06:03

with how the Core 4 has been

1:06:05

deployed because I just don't think there's

1:06:07

been a need to kind of crank

1:06:09

up into that 20 minutes per game

1:06:11

range. Yeah,

1:06:13

they're very, very good. We've

1:06:17

already seen Spolster blink and

1:06:19

that was the only the other

1:06:21

thing I really wanted to

1:06:23

hit on was We saw Spolster

1:06:25

make adjustments right away. He

1:06:27

takes Alec Berks out of the

1:06:29

rotation who started game one

1:06:31

Takes Colin Anderson out of the

1:06:34

rotation plays Jovic and Larson

1:06:36

Any thoughts on those moves on

1:06:38

whether they I think I

1:06:40

think they were probably in that

1:06:42

positive I think Jovic gave

1:06:44

them very good minutes even though

1:06:46

he didn't shoot well. Like,

1:06:48

it does feel like Spolster really

1:06:50

wanted this one right away. He

1:06:53

took big swings immediately. And

1:06:57

I think those swings are here to

1:06:59

stay. I think that's probably Miami's best foot

1:07:01

forward. But, you know, going back to

1:07:03

what you said, we have film

1:07:05

now of Miami's adjustment. We have we

1:07:07

know what it looks like when it's

1:07:09

working well, and it wasn't enough

1:07:11

to get the win. Like, I think. That

1:07:14

really bodes well for the

1:07:17

Casability to wrap this up in

1:07:19

short order. I feel pretty

1:07:21

good going into Game 3. I

1:07:23

think that's going to be

1:07:25

the most important game of this

1:07:27

series, as Game 3s often

1:07:29

are. I think if there's

1:07:31

one that Miami would get, I would kind

1:07:33

of expect it to be four, because that's kind

1:07:35

of the more traditional gentlemen suite. But

1:07:37

if the Cavs can take care of

1:07:39

business in Game 3 in Miami, an

1:07:41

early game, we know how the Cavs

1:07:43

struggle in afternoon games so far this

1:07:45

season. That would be impressive,

1:07:47

Matt, because, yes, this team had a

1:07:50

losing record for the year, but they did

1:07:52

finish the year strong. They had a

1:07:54

lot of weird things that went on in

1:07:56

terms of the Jimmy Butler situation. And

1:07:59

I think that this unit working as

1:08:01

a collective is a little better than

1:08:03

the record. We talked

1:08:05

about it going in, right? The

1:08:07

reason we wanted the Miami

1:08:09

Heat versus Orlando, Atlanta, or

1:08:11

Chicago was because we felt that they

1:08:13

were going to test them, right? We felt

1:08:15

that this is a team that has

1:08:17

a ton of playoff experience. We have a

1:08:19

ton of respect for Erick Spolstra. I

1:08:21

believe that BAM out of bio is probably

1:08:23

the best big man defender that we're

1:08:26

going to see in the playoffs. Kristaps

1:08:28

Porzingis might bother guys a little more

1:08:30

because of his length, but BAM is the

1:08:32

better overall defender. I think that

1:08:34

there's a lot of valuable lessons that

1:08:36

we can learn from the series, even

1:08:38

though Miami is at a talent deficit.

1:08:41

I gotta say, I said this

1:08:43

to you at dinner before

1:08:45

the game, that I thought Miami's

1:08:47

best shot at us was

1:08:49

last night. You know,

1:08:51

it's Game to Spoe? Game to Spoe,

1:08:53

baby. Game to Spoe, it's the

1:08:55

first set of like, okay, they actually

1:08:57

had some tape to grind. They

1:08:59

had two days off. They had a

1:09:01

Cavs team who probably felt like

1:09:04

gods after game one. And

1:09:06

in a weird game where

1:09:08

you had three players take

1:09:10

an unusual percentage of your

1:09:12

shots, like could be a

1:09:14

weird rhythm thing. And

1:09:16

the Cavs came out in, you

1:09:19

know, one by nine. And

1:09:21

like, obviously there's always the

1:09:23

game four let down. But in terms of

1:09:25

the competitive portion of the series, I

1:09:27

do think the Cavs are in really, really

1:09:29

good shape. I told

1:09:31

you before at dinner. I was like,

1:09:34

I don't know. I think we

1:09:36

might lose this one, you know? And

1:09:38

I still felt good about Cavs

1:09:41

and Five, even if they did lose

1:09:43

this one. But after passing that

1:09:45

test, I do think

1:09:47

I'm ready to commit

1:09:49

Cavs and Four. I'm

1:09:51

so proud of you, num. We didn't get a

1:09:53

serious prediction from you. Obviously, this becomes a

1:09:55

little easier when Cavs have half of the wins

1:09:57

they need to win this series. Or where

1:09:59

are you at? How do you think these games

1:10:01

in Miami are going to go? I'm

1:10:04

going to do caps and four. I think, to your

1:10:06

point, they've made some moves. It was incremental

1:10:08

improvement for them, but it wasn't a solve. It something

1:10:11

that is going to cause the

1:10:13

major issues moving forward. It

1:10:15

might incremental anything that happened to game, but

1:10:17

I think caps and four. Hell yeah, I

1:10:19

absolutely love to see it. We will be

1:10:21

going live post game after game three in

1:10:23

Miami really really excited to see how the

1:10:25

Cavs deal with you know, whatever adjustments Miami

1:10:28

still has in the bag, right? We know

1:10:30

that they are a proud team. They're going

1:10:32

to play with desperation and the Cavs come

1:10:34

out expecting that and do what needs to

1:10:36

be done to take a commanding 3 .0

1:10:38

series lead. We will find out. Big thanks

1:10:40

to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. I

1:10:42

know we're going up against the NFL draft

1:10:44

so a little bit of a tough situation,

1:10:46

but you know, Mobley defends the player of

1:10:48

the year. We had to do it. We

1:10:50

had to let him know. So big thanks

1:10:52

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