0:00

think the work... that I'm proudest of

0:02

is work that was completely self -generated

0:04

work that I wasn't really ever

0:06

hired to do work that I just

0:08

did for myself that then over

0:11

time doing it quite a lot found

0:13

an audience like even the podcast

0:15

that was I was paying to do

0:17

the podcast and then with this

0:19

effort with the book you know I

0:21

didn't start doing these little visual

0:23

stories thinking someday I'm gonna get a

0:26

book deal with this it wasn't

0:28

it at all they were actually very

0:30

personal very very scrappy efforts

0:32

that were truly just done

0:34

for the sake of my

0:36

own sort of spark of

0:38

creativity, trying to keep it

0:40

alive. This

0:44

episode is brought to you by

0:46

my latest book, Never Play It

0:48

Safe. Right now, if you

0:50

do not have a copy of my latest

0:53

book, I want you to listen to what

0:55

Gary Vaynerchuk said about my latest book. Few

1:01

people know this process like Chase

1:03

Jarvis does and never play it

1:05

safe is the roadmap. Or

1:08

what Sophia Amoruso said, this book

1:10

is a powerful compass for embracing

1:12

risk and creativity in all the

1:14

aspects of your life. Chase shows

1:16

us how to step out of

1:18

our comfort zones and become who

1:20

we were meant to be. Here's

1:22

a cool fact. All of the best

1:24

stuff in life is on the other

1:26

side of your comfort zone. and

1:29

never play it safe is a blueprint.

1:31

That's how I designed it. It's a

1:33

blueprint to get you there reliably over

1:35

and over again. It's not an accident

1:37

that this was a national bestseller

1:39

on, I think, four bestselling book lists. That's

1:42

because it is a roadmap. It's a

1:44

blueprint, right? It's going to reshape how

1:46

you think about attention, time, intuition, constraints,

1:48

those things that you feel like hold

1:50

you back. If you're not playing enough,

1:52

if you're working too much, you're working

1:54

in the wrong way. If failure

1:56

seems too constant and you can't see

1:58

what the benefits are, or if

2:00

you don't have the practices and the

2:02

habits to help you achieve the extraordinary results

2:05

that you seek, this

2:07

is the book. This is the book that

2:09

I put three years of my life, and

2:11

its goal is to help you be more

2:13

creative, fulfilled, and successful in everything that

2:15

you do. And if this hasn't

2:17

convinced you, or the blurbs from Gary Vaynerchuk

2:19

and Seth Godin and Sophia and Damon John

2:21

from Shark Tank, then I get

2:23

it. There's a bunch of other reviews at

2:25

Amazon or wherever you buy books, and I'd

2:28

love it if you'd pick up a copy

2:30

of Never Play It Safe, A Practical Guide

2:32

to Freedom, Creativity, and A Life You Love.

2:34

Now, let's get into the show. Hey,

2:40

everybody. Welcome to another episode of the

2:42

show. I am very grateful to

2:45

have one of my dear, dear friends,

2:47

someone I respect, admire, appreciate. find

2:49

great, great value in knowing

2:51

her and the work that she

2:54

brings to the world. It's

2:56

the one and only, the inimitable

2:58

Debbie Millman. Now, Debbie has

3:00

been named one of the most creative people

3:02

in business. by Fast

3:04

Company Magazine, one of the

3:06

most influential designers working today

3:08

by GDUSA. She's an author, an

3:11

illustrator, an educator. She's the host

3:13

of one of the longest -running

3:15

podcasts in the world, Design Matters,

3:17

which has been, gosh, broadcasting, I

3:19

think, for 20 years. And

3:22

it's really hard for me

3:24

to overstate the impact, A, that

3:26

she's had on design and creativity,

3:28

but B, on me personally. She

3:30

is an absolute gem of a

3:32

human. and a powerhouse on so

3:34

many different vectors. And today we

3:36

have a far and wide ranging

3:38

conversation, creative process, overcoming hurdles, a

3:41

little bit about our history together. And

3:43

we do touch on her new book,

3:45

which is called Love Letter to a

3:47

Garden, which is a coffee table book

3:49

that you will want to have on

3:51

your coffee table. Yours truly, and

3:53

Debbie Millman, this beautiful conversation with

3:55

an amazing human. I'm going to

3:57

get out of the way. Enjoy

4:00

today's conversation. Debbie

4:07

Melman, you're back on the show and

4:09

I could not be more grateful, more happy,

4:11

excited. All of the things. Thank you

4:13

so much for being here. Hi. Hi,

4:15

Chase. It's so good to be with

4:17

you and to see your face and to

4:19

fill your energy. It's just a giant

4:21

hug. I kind of wish we were in

4:23

the same room a lot right now,

4:25

but we're doing the best we can with

4:27

what we got. Welcome back to the

4:29

show. Thank you. New

4:31

book. A lot has happened

4:33

since the last time we

4:36

talked. And where to begin?

4:38

I was wondering if for

4:40

the 10 % of my listenership

4:42

who might be new here

4:44

and not familiar with your

4:46

work, how do you introduce

4:48

yourself? Oh my

4:50

goodness. How do I introduce myself?

4:52

Okay. I'm Debbie Millman and I'm

4:55

a designer. I'm an

4:57

author of... books. I am

4:59

an educator and run the

5:01

master's in branding program at

5:03

the school of visual arts,

5:05

the editorial director of print

5:07

magazine and host of a

5:09

long running podcast called design

5:12

matters, which is one of

5:14

the like most amazing podcasts

5:16

and also one of the

5:18

longest running. I think you

5:20

and I were, uh, I

5:22

don't know, like 2009 or

5:24

something. I actually started in

5:27

2005. There you go. I

5:29

mean, it's 20 years, 20

5:31

years. It was 20 years

5:33

in February. And I don't

5:35

even know how it's possible.

5:37

It feels utterly surreal that

5:39

20 years has gone by

5:41

since I started the show

5:44

in my then office in

5:46

the Empire State Building with

5:48

two telephone handsets. No

5:51

way. Way. And

5:53

you also said author, but how

5:55

many books are you up to

5:57

these days? Like it probably says

5:59

in the bio here, I should

6:01

know that. No, I think with

6:03

this new one, it's eight, but

6:06

there are different kinds of books.

6:08

Two of them are more like

6:10

textbooks that are used in classrooms,

6:12

design books and branding books, and

6:14

three books of interviews that I've

6:16

conducted, whether they be separate or

6:18

from the show. and

6:20

then two books of illustrated essays

6:22

which this one sort of

6:24

feels more a part of so

6:26

this would be kind of

6:28

the third in that realm i

6:30

shared this with you before

6:32

we started recording but i'm absolutely

6:34

in love with the new

6:36

book and i was struggling to

6:38

put a to describe it

6:41

and you just sort of did

6:43

in a way it's like

6:45

a an essay with an illustration

6:47

but it is uh This

6:49

is a book that I want

6:51

to have and open up

6:53

all the time because it made

6:55

me feel good. It made

6:57

me feel like a human being,

6:59

made me feel connected. Yet

7:01

it's unlike 99 % of the

7:03

books out there. How do you

7:05

describe this new book? Oh,

7:08

well, how do I describe it?

7:10

I mean, but even like the

7:12

concept of it, like, how did

7:14

you get there? Maybe we'll go

7:17

through the process. That's a great

7:19

way to start. Excellent. Excellent. So

7:21

I've been doing a lot of

7:23

visual stories on Instagram. And

7:25

I was inspired to

7:27

do this by Christoph Nieman,

7:29

the great, brilliant, genius

7:31

illustrator who's done. New

7:33

Yorker covers and has books and has

7:36

had columns in the New York Times.

7:38

I mean, he's just a genius. And

7:40

he had told

7:42

me and shared

7:44

with me a

7:46

visual essay essentially

7:49

that he had

7:51

made on a

7:53

commissioned expedition with

7:55

National Geographic. And

7:57

I didn't even know

7:59

that National Geographic did these

8:01

expeditions. And so I

8:04

was both enthralled by what

8:06

he had done creatively,

8:08

but also this adventure that

8:10

he'd gone on, which

8:12

seemed completely heavenly. And

8:16

so I looked into

8:18

them and I, at the

8:20

time, was newly single

8:22

and was looking for something

8:24

adventurous to do to

8:26

get my mind off of

8:28

my sadness at having

8:30

that relationship end. And this

8:32

was back in 2016. And

8:35

I... to look into what

8:37

Kristoff had talked about, these

8:39

National Geographic expeditions. And I

8:41

found one that was a

8:44

trip around the world in

8:46

a month. And it was

8:48

to some of the great

8:50

wonders of the world, like

8:52

Easter Island, seeing the Moai

8:55

and Angkor Wat in Cambodia.

9:00

The incredible Petra in Jordan

9:02

and things like that. So

9:05

while I was on the

9:07

trip, en route to our

9:09

first stop in Lima, Peru

9:11

to go climb Machu Picchu,

9:13

I got this overwhelming inspiration

9:16

to do a visual essay

9:18

about my en route to

9:20

this trip, how I even

9:22

arrived at this adventure. And

9:24

so I. started with

9:26

my conversation with Kristoff. And

9:29

I ended up doing a

9:31

visual story for every single

9:33

country I went on. I

9:35

went to. And this expedition, it

9:37

was really hard at the time

9:39

for me. You know, I was

9:41

by myself on a trip that

9:43

was 99 % couples. It

9:45

was physically really

9:47

challenging. Wasn't really prepared for

9:50

how hard it would be to

9:52

climb Machu Picchu or walk six miles

9:54

through Petra and all of these

9:56

incredible things that I was doing. Snorkeling

9:58

in the Great Barrier Reef, never

10:00

having snorkeled before and trying to scuba,

10:02

never having scuba before. Not a good

10:05

suggestion. Not a good thing to try.

10:07

And so I ended up doing this.

10:09

For every country. And the New

10:11

York Times wrote about it. And it's

10:13

very surprising. Like I didn't even know

10:15

that they had written about it. Paula

10:17

Sher wrote to me the Monday that

10:19

it came out and said, this is

10:21

amazing. And I'm like, what? And

10:23

I clicked it and there it was. And

10:26

so after that, because I

10:28

love traveling and because I've continued

10:30

to do several more expeditions

10:32

and lots of trips, I've been

10:34

doing these visual stories wherever

10:36

I go. And I love doing

10:38

this. It captures my feelings

10:40

and what I see and what

10:42

I experience in ways that

10:44

nothing else I've ever done has

10:46

been able to capture. Fast

10:50

forward to

10:52

2021. And

10:55

I had decided quite

10:58

a long time before

11:00

2021 that for my

11:02

60th birthday, I wanted

11:04

to go to Antarctica.

11:07

on an expedition, but it

11:09

was going to be in

11:11

conjunction with the total eclipse

11:13

of the sun that was

11:15

there, that was happening at

11:17

that time in Antarctica. And

11:20

I did that. I

11:22

did it with Roxanne, my

11:24

now wife. And unfortunately,

11:26

we did not see the

11:28

total solar eclipse of the

11:30

sun because of cloud cover.

11:32

But I did have like

11:34

the most magical time in

11:36

Antarctica and experiencing Antarctica, which

11:38

is the most pristine, beautiful

11:40

place on the planet. So

11:43

I did that. And then

11:45

also during COVID, I was

11:47

asked by the TED conference

11:50

to make little visual essays

11:52

that I also narrated. as

11:54

interstitials between the talks that

11:56

were all online that year. And

11:58

so an editor from Timber

12:00

Press, which is part of

12:02

Hachette, saw my visual stories

12:04

for TED, and one of

12:06

them was about gardening, and saw

12:08

my Antarctica short story that

12:10

was also then published in

12:12

Afar magazine and reached out

12:14

to me and asked me

12:16

if I'd be interested in doing

12:19

a book on gardening. And

12:21

I was super intrigued. But I

12:23

had to be very honest with

12:26

her. I'm not an accomplished gardener

12:28

at all. Like for most of

12:30

my life, I've tried to have

12:32

garden gardens and have beautiful sort

12:34

of flora around me. But for

12:36

whatever reason, it's been really hard

12:38

for me. Most of my life

12:40

has been in New York City,

12:42

which is not the most conducive

12:44

place. Brownstone gardening, right? Right. Exactly.

12:46

Container gardening, which is not the,

12:49

you know, it just was not

12:51

feasible. And I said to her,

12:53

I'd love to do something, but

12:55

it would need really to

12:58

be about my quest, which is

13:00

ongoing and not my success,

13:02

because that is not quite where

13:04

it would be. And any

13:06

gardener in the world would roll

13:08

their eyes at me saying

13:10

that I could give advice about

13:12

gardening. And then she agreed.

13:14

She agreed that it would be

13:16

more of a aspirational journey. And

13:20

so that's really what it is.

13:22

Well, I mean, of course, it's easy

13:24

to connect the dots looking backwards

13:26

because I know a lot about you.

13:28

We have spent a lot of

13:30

time together. I've been on guests on

13:32

your show. You've been multiple time

13:34

guests on mine. We get to hang

13:36

out occasionally outside of what I

13:38

would call work. And this

13:40

is like you're destined

13:43

for this kind of work.

13:51

illustration is sublime and i almost

13:53

like this is a is

13:55

it is it a genre even

13:57

like like this is what

13:59

i mean it feels so freaking

14:01

fresh oh well thank you

14:03

i mean it's really been i

14:05

mean now it's my favorite

14:07

thing to do so i you

14:09

know i do all these

14:11

different things and i've always done

14:13

lots and lots of different

14:15

things that's been my life since

14:17

high school I was

14:19

always in different clubs and

14:21

then in college, the same thing.

14:23

And then when I finished

14:25

school and moved to Manhattan, it's

14:28

always been multiple jobs and

14:30

multiple efforts and whatnot. But

14:32

doing this makes me feel like

14:34

it's all I want to do. In

14:36

the time that it took me

14:38

to do this book, it was really

14:40

some of the most joyous. And

14:42

fulfilling experience, even when I

14:44

was stuck and I didn't

14:46

know where I wanted to

14:48

take the story or I

14:50

was having trouble illustrating or

14:53

painting. I still felt like.

14:55

The luckiest person on the planet to

14:58

be able to do this kind of

15:00

work, which it seemed that I had

15:02

just looking back on the journey of

15:04

my life, spent my whole life trying

15:06

to do. Well, this

15:08

is the next area of. questions

15:11

that I'm hoping to explore together,

15:13

because if you look at your career

15:15

from the outside, and again, I

15:17

think I can't look at it like

15:19

from the inside, but I'm like,

15:22

I'm in the foyer. Okay. I'm not

15:24

in your house. I'm in the

15:26

foyer and I'm looking in there. And,

15:28

but from the outside, it appears

15:30

that you have just made a career

15:32

of going from one unbelievable, beautiful

15:34

focus. This is what I'm here to

15:36

do. I'm doing this thing. to

15:39

another over and over without

15:41

missing a beat you did you

15:43

know all of your early

15:45

design work and running design around

15:47

uh you know in in

15:49

new york for agencies and you

15:51

have you were incredibly accomplished

15:53

there uh and then that you

15:55

created the program at sva

15:57

that you're now is it the

16:00

chair is that the best

16:02

way of talking about it okay

16:04

you're the chair of that

16:06

program and The same could be

16:08

said for the podcast, which we were, you

16:10

know, riffing on

16:12

earlier. Like you've been doing that since,

16:14

you know, the mid 2000s. Like, are

16:16

you just a hit machine? And like,

16:18

what is, but I mean, this is

16:20

not blowing smoke because from the outside,

16:22

I don't see anything that you're doing

16:24

that's not actually showing up the way

16:26

you want to show up. So is

16:28

there a, is there, are there any

16:30

gaps in what you're doing and how

16:32

you wanted to show up? Cause it

16:34

doesn't look like there are. And obviously

16:36

there's gotta be some gap, but it

16:38

looks pretty good from where I'm sitting.

16:41

So help us understand. Well,

16:43

thank you for saying that chase. It's

16:48

always hard to

16:50

be in the foyer

16:52

of a person

16:54

because it's looking in,

16:56

but not. sort

16:58

of seeing the dirty

17:00

kitchen and to

17:02

continue this wonderful metaphor.

17:06

And part of my

17:08

early drive and even

17:10

still to this day

17:12

comes from feeling really

17:14

unhappy with who I

17:16

am and feeling not

17:18

good enough and feeling

17:20

like I had to

17:23

constantly prove myself. And

17:25

I think Some of

17:27

my success has just

17:29

resulted from the really,

17:31

really hard work that

17:33

I've done to achieve

17:36

these things. I'm not

17:38

someone that has sort

17:40

of hit it out

17:42

of the park on

17:44

the first time at

17:46

bat at all. And

17:49

even the first like

17:51

12 to 15 years

17:53

of my career were

17:55

on one level. you

17:58

know, sort of normal, but

18:00

on another level, really challenging because

18:02

I did want so much

18:04

and I did have grand expectations

18:06

for my life, but I

18:08

didn't really know how to get

18:10

started or how to really

18:12

manifest what my hopes and dreams

18:14

were. Part of that was

18:16

because I didn't know and I

18:18

didn't have a lot of

18:20

guidance and was somewhat neglected as

18:22

I grew up. And so

18:24

there wasn't role models that I

18:26

could look at. But

18:28

also because I just didn't have

18:31

the understanding of what it would

18:33

take. And I also had a

18:35

lot of insecurity. Like I just

18:37

didn't think that I'd be good

18:39

enough at doing any of the

18:41

things that I wanted to do,

18:43

which really prevented me from trying

18:45

them until much, much later in

18:47

life when I did have a

18:49

little bit more success. A

18:52

lot of that came from. being

18:54

very sort of financially vulnerable. I wasn't

18:56

making a lot of money. I didn't

18:59

have a lot of money. I didn't

19:01

have anybody I could fall back on

19:03

financially. And so

19:05

my lead gene for a

19:07

lot of my early life

19:09

was survival and paying the

19:11

rent and trying to get

19:13

by. But I've also

19:15

been able to look back and say,

19:17

I was making a lot of

19:20

choices that were my non -negotiables at

19:22

the time. So in as much as

19:24

I didn't have any money, I

19:26

also was choosing to live in one

19:28

of the most expensive cities in

19:30

New York and was doing so successfully.

19:32

So, I mean, I didn't have

19:34

any money, but I was still paying

19:36

rent. I wasn't ever

19:38

evicted. So I made

19:40

some choices that were part

19:42

of what I wanted, just not

19:44

all of what I wanted,

19:46

but that part of what I

19:48

wanted sort of I

19:51

hindered some of doing some of the

19:53

other things that I wanted because I

19:55

did still want to be where I

19:57

was. So it's a little bit kind

19:59

of looking back on it now, a

20:01

bit complicated, but not really. I mean,

20:03

I was really afraid to do what

20:05

I wanted to do mostly because I

20:07

didn't think I was really any good

20:09

at it. And also I was terrified

20:11

of what the humiliation might feel like

20:13

if I failed. And

20:15

yet there was clearly

20:17

1 % more courage than

20:19

fear. Yes. And at least

20:21

at least maybe maybe it was maybe

20:23

it was ninety nine courage, one fear.

20:25

But it could also have been fifty

20:27

one courage and forty nine fear. No,

20:29

no. I've said I said to Brene

20:31

Brown, she was Brene Brown was asking

20:34

me, like, with all of the struggle

20:36

that I had, what kept me persevering?

20:38

What kept me thinking, oh, I can

20:40

still do more. I can still have

20:42

more. And I really had to think

20:44

hard about it. But ultimately it was

20:46

that I had one. more,

20:48

I had one notch, one notch

20:50

more hope than shame. And that's

20:52

sort of what has always

20:54

kept me moving forward. Even now,

20:56

when I worry about something being

20:58

successful or being well received, I

21:00

still do them. I still

21:02

do the things. It doesn't mean

21:05

I don't worry about the things,

21:07

but I still do them because

21:09

I still have more, one

21:11

notch more hope than anything else. Well,

21:14

a hat tip to Brene,

21:16

because she also helped me learn

21:18

actually in this exact room

21:20

where I'm sitting right now, the

21:22

concept of gold plated grit

21:25

that she talks about. And gold

21:27

plated grit is our almost

21:29

accidental default mode where we talk

21:31

about how hard something was

21:33

and then quickly move on to

21:35

us looking and feeling really

21:37

good about everything. And

21:39

I want to say that you

21:41

do. you basically almost do the

21:43

reverse. You're like, yeah, I've been,

21:46

I've done all of these things

21:48

and yet it was incredibly hard.

21:50

So A, thank you for the

21:52

vulnerability, but two, let's spend a

21:54

little bit of time there for

21:56

a second because if we're still

21:59

holding up right now, this

22:01

professionally, it appears to move from

22:03

one success to another, right? Build

22:05

the agency, agency gets acquired, launch

22:07

the program at SVA. It's like,

22:09

One of the world's top and only

22:11

in its field. You get all

22:14

of the best instructors, amazing

22:16

students. You share their work regularly on in

22:18

your channel, which I deeply enjoy. I've

22:20

had the chance to visit you at your

22:22

office there. The podcast, one

22:24

of the longest running, you know, podcasts

22:26

in the design world. Apple calls it

22:28

one of their favorites of all time.

22:31

It just looks like professional success.

22:33

And I'm wondering sort of two

22:35

things. elements

22:40

that were not successes that I,

22:42

I mean, I know you pretty

22:44

well and I've scoured the record.

22:46

I can't find any. So they're

22:48

either extra well hidden. And I'd

22:50

be curious to hear a little

22:52

bit about that. But even more

22:54

important is, was the, did all

22:56

of that come at a personal

22:58

cost? Because you have shared in

23:00

this conversation already about being, you

23:02

know, you've used words like vulnerable

23:04

and shame and less than and

23:07

You've been public about being abused

23:09

as a child. I'll never forget

23:11

some of those unforgettable, absolutely

23:13

transformative in the podcast world. You

23:15

and my other dear friend, Tim, talking

23:18

about your experiences there.

23:20

So is there a

23:22

professional success, personal struggle?

23:24

Are those sort of in tension

23:26

and that's what makes both

23:28

of them possible? So two part

23:31

question again. One is I

23:33

haven't seen any professional like struggles.

23:35

And then, okay, underneath it all, like,

23:38

has it come at

23:40

a huge cost personally? Such

23:45

a great question. Such a great

23:47

question. And actually, I'm going to

23:49

think about that question a lot

23:51

as I go through the various

23:54

emotions of my life on a

23:56

daily basis. It's such a great

23:58

question. Public

24:02

failure. Certainly

24:05

the first 10 years of my

24:07

career, I can say, you know, I

24:09

wasn't accepted to the journalism school

24:11

I wanted to go to for grad

24:14

school. I wasn't accepted to an

24:16

art program that I wanted to go

24:18

to at the Whitney. Those sort

24:20

of derailed my efforts in those areas

24:22

for quite quite some time. The

24:25

first couple of jobs that I

24:27

had were. Dubious

24:29

in their.

24:33

rewards. And

24:35

even until I got to Sterling

24:37

in 1995, so that was 12

24:39

years after I graduated college, I

24:41

did have one success and that

24:44

was working with Hot 97. And

24:46

that started, I think, in 92.

24:48

So that was still almost 10

24:50

years after I graduated. And that

24:52

was a freelance gig, but it

24:54

was work that I did that

24:57

Helped launch the world's first hip hop radio station,

24:59

which, know, is kind of funny for a

25:01

Jewish girl from Long Island, white girl from Long

25:03

Island to talk about. But

25:05

but I still had. I

25:09

was struggling so much to

25:11

find my way. The first big

25:13

design job that I got

25:15

at Frankfort Balkind, Aubrey

25:18

Balkind wouldn't hire me as a designer

25:20

because he didn't think I was good enough.

25:22

And that was back in 93, I

25:25

think. Yeah, it was there for. Oh, no,

25:27

it was earlier than that because I was

25:29

at Interbrand after that and got to Sterling

25:31

at 95. But he wouldn't hire me as

25:33

a designer because he didn't think my work

25:35

was good enough. And that was really humiliating.

25:37

But I did get a job there because

25:39

I thought, you know what, I want to

25:41

work here more than any other place in

25:43

the world. And it took me six months

25:45

to convince them to hire me. I'll

25:48

sweep the floor if that's what they're

25:50

willing to give me. But I felt

25:52

like I couldn't become better. without

25:54

learning and this was going to

25:56

be the way i learned how to

25:58

do it and still get paid

26:00

something to do it it was a

26:02

major drop in salary for me

26:04

but at the time it was a

26:06

it was a good strategic decision

26:08

and then when i went to my

26:11

next job which was um at

26:13

interbrand that was i was successful for

26:15

the first time actually selling and

26:17

doing business development for Interbrand, but

26:19

which at the time was a company called

26:21

the Schechter Group, which was then merged into

26:23

Interbrand while I was there. But

26:25

it was another sort of

26:27

run down from what I wanted

26:30

because Aubrey hired me as

26:32

project manager, which I was. truly

26:34

terrible at. I

26:36

mean, truly, I have no mind

26:38

for details. So I was really

26:40

bad at that. And then, like,

26:42

just when I thought my world

26:44

could not get any worse career -wise,

26:46

I was offered an opportunity to

26:48

go and become a biz dev

26:50

girl, which... I was just desperate

26:52

at that point to get out of Frankfurt

26:54

Balkheim because I'd learned everything I could possibly learn.

26:57

And Aubrey hated me. He

26:59

only hired me because his partner wanted

27:01

to hire me because his partner

27:03

was a friend of my cousin, my

27:05

cousin's lawyer. That was my cousin's

27:07

lawyer. And so, you know, it was

27:09

like a back channel favor. But

27:12

I really thought at the time that,

27:14

you know, I was worthy of being hired,

27:16

even if it were as the janitor.

27:18

Nevertheless, he hated me. I left, went and

27:20

did biz dev thinking, OK, well, this

27:22

is like rock bottom. But

27:24

ended up being really good at it

27:26

because most people that are desperate

27:28

for approval and have just like a

27:31

tiny bit of charm are actually

27:33

good at new business. Because

27:35

they're constantly, constantly trying

27:37

to prove themselves. Exactly,

27:41

exactly. It's like that great Tracy

27:43

Ullman sketch where like the woman's

27:45

trying to find a job and

27:47

like takes the... caps off of

27:49

bottles of soda, puts them on

27:51

her heels and tap dances. It's

27:53

like that was me. That was

27:55

me. So, you know, it all

27:58

started quite serendipitously because who knew

28:00

I'd be good at doing biz

28:02

development and then ended up because

28:04

that job was also in the

28:06

in the middle of like a

28:08

political. shit show, if I

28:10

could say that, during this merge and

28:12

ended up calling the headhunter that

28:14

placed me at Interbrand and was like,

28:16

do you have anything? And

28:19

she was like, well, there's this company

28:21

that went bankrupt and they're looking for

28:23

somebody to help kind of get them

28:25

back on their feet. And

28:28

that's where I went, to Sterling

28:30

Brands, which was indeed coming out

28:32

of book. But that's how desperate

28:34

I was to find something. And

28:36

that turned out to be

28:38

one of the best decisions of

28:40

my life because they did

28:42

need somebody to help them get

28:44

back on their feet. And

28:46

I, at that time, that was

28:49

the only thing I could

28:51

do. And so that's what I

28:53

did. And that gave me

28:55

some of the great... gifts that

28:57

i've been able to really

28:59

help craft the rest of the

29:01

way i wanted my life

29:03

to go because we i was

29:05

there for 20 years and

29:07

we did we were acquired by

29:09

omnicom and that was just

29:11

a miracle really and um so

29:14

over the years over the time at

29:16

sterling i can't even begin to tell

29:18

you how many times we were rejected

29:20

from new business how many times i

29:22

mean you know anybody that's doing new

29:24

business knows that even if you get

29:26

35 of what you pitch that's like

29:28

michael jordan's that's heroic yeah and and

29:31

and so 65 of the time you

29:33

know we were unsuccessful and i always

29:35

had to figure out how to be

29:37

able to get past that and keep

29:39

going and keep trying and keep building

29:41

and That's how I built

29:43

my career in branding. So

29:45

it was just littered with

29:47

failures. But see, this is why

29:49

we have long form conversations.

29:52

Because when you just, you know,

29:54

agency built it up, it

29:56

was acquired. And then you could

29:58

just look, it just looks

30:00

absolutely gold plated. And it's

30:02

helpful for us to hear. that,

30:04

Oh, it was very difficult and taking

30:06

jobs that you were not actually that

30:08

psyched about in order to get your

30:10

foot in the door and prove yourself

30:12

via different channels. And that's courageous and

30:15

brave. And, um, I think maybe even

30:17

this is a stretch, but there's something

30:19

somewhat of like desperation, like I need

30:21

to get me out of here. I

30:23

need something different. And simultaneously

30:25

you're paying your, you're paying your rent. Let's

30:28

talk about the other side though.

30:30

Let's talk about the personal side and

30:34

The. You

30:36

have shared that, I guess we

30:38

can probably make the connection I shared

30:40

a moment ago that you have

30:42

already shared very publicly and to the

30:44

great benefit of so many people

30:46

who has helped. Thank you about your

30:48

childhood and how that actually probably

30:50

drove you to do a lot of

30:52

those crazy things just to keep

30:54

going when it was hard and to

30:56

take a job that you didn't

30:58

want and to, you know, to fit

31:00

in, belong, try and connect. But

31:04

I think that's a fair

31:06

assumption, but this is me making

31:08

it up. I want to

31:10

hear a from you and then

31:12

how had your, you know,

31:14

what was your relationship like with

31:16

yourself in through these other,

31:18

you know, perceived successes and wins

31:20

the podcast being so successful,

31:22

your, you know, career writing more

31:24

than a half a dozen

31:26

books. Like how has that relationship

31:28

been in the process? Well,

31:33

You know, Brene also

31:35

talks in her very

31:37

first TED Talk about

31:39

going to that therapist

31:41

and says jokes about

31:44

how, you know, she

31:46

thought it was going to be easy

31:48

to figure out her life. And it turned

31:50

out to be, I think she called

31:52

it a street fight. And

31:54

that's sort of the way I

31:56

feel like my career has been.

31:58

It's been a street fight. It

32:02

has just been a lot

32:04

of really, really, really hard

32:06

work. I mean, it was

32:08

10 years of doing the

32:10

podcast before Apple designated it

32:13

as one of its all

32:15

-time favorites or one of

32:17

the favorites that year. That

32:19

was 2015. I

32:23

do things, I'm sort of in things for

32:25

the long haul. And

32:27

I keep... at things.

32:29

It's very, I mean, to my detriment sometimes.

32:31

I've stayed in relationships far longer than I

32:33

should have. I stayed at jobs far longer

32:35

than I should have. I'm not a person

32:37

that does transition very well. I don't even

32:39

like moving from place to, you know, I'm

32:41

bi -coastal, so I still, every time I go

32:43

to the other house, I'm like, and the

32:45

only reason I am bi -coastal is because

32:47

I married somebody who had a house in

32:49

a different place than I did, and we

32:51

wanted to be together that much, but neither

32:54

one of us could. bring

32:56

ourselves to move away from where our careers

32:58

are. And so we do go back and

33:00

forth. And each time I cry, each time

33:02

I leave the house in L .A. and

33:04

I'm like, oh, this is so much. And

33:06

then I go to New York and I'm

33:08

like, oh, I miss the cats. So

33:12

I just have trouble

33:14

with transitions. And I

33:16

also don't ever want

33:18

to leave anything behind.

33:21

But that could really be a detriment. I

33:23

was talking to somebody years and years and

33:26

years ago, and I really wish that I

33:28

could remember her name. It was an onstage

33:30

interview that I was doing for a local

33:32

AIGA chapter. And I was talking to a

33:34

woman who had been the general manager of

33:36

Puma and then left and started a little

33:38

bookstore. And I asked her how

33:40

she did it. And she said that she just had

33:42

to let go of the trapeze. She just had to

33:45

let go. And then I was envisioning

33:47

my life at the time. and

33:49

saw my sort of self holding

33:51

onto the trapeze with like elbows

33:53

crooked and legs wrapped around the

33:55

body. Like it wasn't just that

33:57

I was holding on. It was

34:00

like I was hanging for my

34:02

life. And so I just literally

34:04

had to unpeel each limb in

34:06

an effort to try to consider

34:08

doing new things. And even when

34:10

I was doing the new things,

34:13

there was always this Venn diagram

34:15

of overlap. So I

34:17

was doing Sterling while I

34:19

started SVA, and there were years

34:21

where I started the program

34:23

in 2009 and didn't leave Sterling

34:26

until 2016, so had like

34:28

two full -time jobs. Now, at

34:30

what cost? Yes, it cost me

34:32

a marriage, but that marriage

34:34

was doomed from the start, given

34:36

that I have always been

34:39

gay, just was afraid to admit

34:41

it and live a life

34:43

that was out. So

34:46

there were issues there, too,

34:48

that I kind of wish I

34:50

don't know that I would

34:52

say that they were a failure,

34:54

but it was certainly limiting

34:56

what was possible for myself because

34:58

of my own inner homophobia.

35:00

So there was there was like

35:02

cost to that. I was

35:04

afraid, again, homophobic, my own inner

35:06

homophobia, that I'd be judged

35:08

by my clients or my my

35:10

staff, you know, somehow. Thankfully

35:13

that never happened. But

35:16

so again, it's, it's,

35:18

it's hard for me to

35:20

take steps forward, but

35:22

then when I do, I'm

35:24

all in. And

35:26

so I hope that's

35:28

an answer to the question.

35:30

That's a beautiful answer.

35:33

That's poetic. Like, but

35:35

I mean, and this is to me, this

35:37

is the creative journey that we're all on is

35:40

how do you channel that? into

35:43

what you create, what you

35:45

produce. And I'm sort of,

35:48

this is why I'm wondering

35:50

if this, I mean, having,

35:52

you know, podcasting wildly creative,

35:54

you've designed journals, you've, I

35:56

mean, logos that are legendary.

35:58

So, so many things and

36:00

that you have arrived at

36:03

this, you know, your newest

36:05

piece of work again, love

36:07

letter to a garden. It

36:10

seems like it could only

36:12

possibly ever be a culmination of

36:14

all of these things. And

36:16

it feels new and fresh. And

36:18

how much of this was

36:21

born out of just the adventure?

36:23

You know, you went through

36:25

the process a little bit, but

36:27

how much was born out

36:29

of adventure and joy and discovery

36:32

and how much was, you

36:34

know, created out of. These

36:36

are the sketches that I'm doing when

36:38

I'm alone on this journey that I that

36:40

are in my book. And then they

36:43

leak a couple of them out to Ted.

36:45

And then all of a sudden I've

36:47

got a book. Well, you know, it's interesting.

36:49

You talk about failure. The

36:51

whole book is really about my failure

36:54

as a gardener. But

36:56

it's so but it's so I mean,

36:58

you're taking these beautiful pictures and then all

37:00

my corn died. But all

37:02

this other stuff is just thriving.

37:04

So I mean, come on. I talk

37:06

about the bugs and the drought

37:08

and all of that. But what's

37:10

interesting is that I had no idea

37:12

at the time that I was going to

37:14

do anything like this. And I keep

37:16

wondering, like, why did I take the picture

37:19

of the dead corn? And I think

37:21

it was because I talk about my cousin

37:23

Eileen in the book. And I think

37:25

I was I know for sure, like the

37:27

bugs and the things like that. I

37:29

was sending her like, what's wrong with this

37:31

leaf? Why is it got mold on

37:33

it? And why is there this bug? on

37:35

this thing and she would tell me

37:37

and she would help me get over those

37:39

challenges but like the dead corn I

37:42

don't know why I took that picture but

37:44

it really came in handy but you

37:46

know the thing is and this is something

37:48

I'm also just realizing now talking to

37:50

you I think the work that I'm proudest

37:52

of is work that was completely self

37:54

generated Work that I

37:56

wasn't really ever hired

37:58

to do. Work that I

38:00

just did for myself

38:02

that then over time doing

38:04

it quite a lot. Found

38:07

an audience like even the podcast that

38:09

was I was paying to do the

38:11

podcast with Voice America, who essentially hired

38:13

me or didn't hire me, asked me

38:16

to do an online radio show at

38:18

my own cost. I had to produce

38:20

the show through them and that cost

38:22

money. So it was like the ultimate

38:24

vanity project at the time. And then

38:26

with this effort with the book, you

38:28

know, I didn't start doing these little

38:30

visual stories thinking. Someday I'm going to

38:33

get a book deal with this. It

38:35

wasn't it at all. They were actually

38:37

very personal, very

38:39

scrappy efforts that were

38:41

truly just done

38:43

for the sake of

38:45

my own sort

38:48

of spark of creativity,

38:50

trying to keep

38:52

it alive. And

38:54

that's the genius. Like,

38:57

if you can bottle what

38:59

you just said, and I'm going

39:01

to, that's the cold open

39:03

right there, because that is the

39:05

genius. We're all fumbling around

39:08

trying to make shit happen. And

39:10

those moments where we can

39:12

truly turn to the things that

39:14

we don't know. You didn't

39:16

know. You can't even tell me

39:18

right now why you're talking

39:20

about gardening. And

39:23

yet. There was

39:25

something in you that turned you toward

39:27

that and you explored it. Hat

39:29

tip to Irene. She's

39:31

seen Mr. Eileen. Oh, sorry. Yeah.

39:34

And that's a lot. I love that

39:36

initial photograph of her in the

39:38

book. It's beautiful. Yeah. She's really special.

39:41

But that is, that's. The genius

39:43

or am I am I oversimplifying it?

39:45

Because it sounded just it sounded

39:47

so special. Like, how do you do

39:49

that? I don't know that I

39:51

would ever use the word genius. In

39:53

fact, both of these efforts came

39:55

out of really feeling very disconnected with

39:57

the world. So the podcast I

39:59

started when I had realized. Ten

40:02

years after being at Sterling that

40:04

I was really concerned that everything

40:06

I was doing at that point

40:08

was corporate. Everything was about shelf

40:10

presence and market share and a

40:12

return on an investment and all

40:14

of those things that are really

40:16

important in the business world. But

40:18

because it was the first time

40:20

doing this work that I had

40:22

ever really been successful at anything,

40:24

I ended up doing that. All

40:27

the time. You know, I gave

40:29

up all the other sort of

40:31

fledgling things that I was trying

40:33

to do, whether it be writing

40:35

bad poetry or drawing and painting

40:37

needlepoint music, whatever it was that

40:39

I was fumbling at and totally

40:41

dedicated myself to this effort, which

40:43

was just like a feedback loop

40:45

of this is great. This is

40:47

wonderful. I'm making money. I'm doing

40:49

this. This is great. This is

40:51

wonderful. I'm making money. But I

40:53

also had this deep, deep creative.

40:56

need that after 10 years was

40:58

like dormant. And so that's why

41:00

I started the podcast. Here was

41:02

this company offering me an opportunity

41:04

to talk and think about design

41:07

in a way that was very

41:09

conversational. And that's how I started

41:11

it. I never, ever 20

41:13

years ago thought this little radio

41:15

show is going to end up

41:17

being one of the great gifts

41:20

of my life. as a podcast

41:22

same thing with the drawings i

41:24

was doing those drawings en route

41:26

to trying to find myself on

41:28

this expedition and then i continued

41:30

doing them during covid when all

41:32

i was really doing was writing

41:34

and painting and doing photography and

41:36

teaching online so it was this

41:39

way of expressing myself that both

41:41

of these efforts that came to

41:43

fruition in this really unexpected and

41:46

beautiful and very lucky

41:48

way. Well,

41:50

I'm going to throw some more

41:52

data at you real quick

41:54

because my own experience mirrors what

41:56

yours is in that. Let's

41:59

say when I started taking

42:01

pictures with the iPhone because it

42:03

was a break from the

42:05

hundred thousand dollar digital Hasselblad that

42:07

took all of this doing

42:09

and. The fact that it

42:12

was a point three megapixel

42:14

camera at first on my flip

42:16

phone and then a two

42:18

megapixel camera with the iPhone and

42:20

people calling me crazy on

42:22

the Internet for like thinking this

42:24

was interesting. That

42:26

was, you know, one of

42:28

my craziest professional successes as

42:30

well. Creative Live was an

42:32

experiment. I was. live streaming

42:34

someone, a photo shoot. And

42:36

I noticed there was 25 ,000

42:38

people watching. Maybe there's something

42:41

here, but to me that

42:43

this actually makes it interesting

42:45

that your journey is not

42:47

completely dissimilar from other guests

42:49

is not completely similar from

42:51

my own. And yet I

42:53

had, maybe this is the

42:55

punchline. Why don't

42:57

we teach people to do

43:00

this? If this is where all

43:02

the best stuff ends up

43:04

being in our Is

43:06

it not possible to just do that

43:08

or do we have to do these things

43:10

that are the world thinks we ought

43:12

to be doing? And then that makes us

43:14

feel like we're getting away with something

43:16

when we're doing the thing that's close to

43:18

our heart and is curious and scary

43:20

and not certain. Like, is there is there

43:22

some sort of interdependence between those two

43:24

things? Why can't we just do that thing?

43:28

You know, I think. The

43:31

people that do that are

43:33

artists. those are

43:35

the people that do it

43:37

they are the people that

43:40

have the conviction that what

43:42

they're making is worth pursuing

43:44

and sharing and creating a

43:46

living with um i never

43:48

felt like my work was

43:51

of that level of that

43:53

value of that worth um

43:55

and i think that ultimately

43:57

on one hand it could

43:59

be being realistic like Somebody

44:02

just might not have the chops. They might not

44:04

have the talent. I think if

44:06

there's a real desire to be

44:08

an artist, a lot of

44:10

other sacrifices have to be made.

44:13

And a lot of people are afraid to

44:15

make those sacrifices. I was

44:17

afraid as well. I didn't really

44:19

start doing these things until I was

44:21

in a position financially because I

44:23

was so terrified of not being able

44:25

to take care of myself and

44:28

being in an unsafe situation. Now, that...

44:30

Was my own story, though. You

44:32

know, I that's my storyline. There

44:34

are plenty of people, Oprah,

44:36

Madonna, you know, that had really terrible

44:38

childhoods and still managed to live the

44:41

life that they wanted from the get

44:43

go. So I don't know. Is it

44:45

my personal weakness? Is it the way

44:47

we're socialized? Is it not being talented

44:49

enough? I mean, there's so many questions

44:51

that I have about this and think

44:54

about a lot, because I do have

44:56

to say that any success that I've

44:58

had came later in life. I

45:00

can't really blame my childhood on that

45:02

for much longer. It's like

45:05

that gig is up. Well,

45:07

as one of the

45:09

most creative people in

45:11

business by Fast Company,

45:13

as one of the

45:15

most influential designers working

45:17

today by GDUSA, like

45:19

you don't get that

45:21

public affirmation from not

45:23

doing completely exceptional and

45:25

radically creative work. what

45:28

I'm hearing you say is that

45:30

I'm going to put words in

45:32

your mouth here and you can,

45:34

you know, throw darts at them

45:36

if you want, or you can

45:39

just thoughtfully nod and smile, but

45:41

like that is the product, those

45:43

accolades that, that is the product

45:45

of doing what you have been

45:47

doing for a really long time.

45:50

Yeah. So it's I would say that that

45:52

is absolutely true. Okay.

45:54

Absolutely true. However, You

45:57

and I have both

45:59

experienced great loss in the

46:01

last couple of months.

46:03

Yes. You lost somebody important

46:05

to you. My mother -in

46:08

-law passed very recently. And

46:11

I was there

46:13

in her final moments,

46:15

as was all

46:17

of Roxanne's, you know,

46:20

my mother -in -law,

46:22

Roxanne's mom, all of

46:24

her children. all

46:26

of her grandchildren, her

46:29

sisters. And

46:33

that to me,

46:35

I don't want to

46:37

cry, showed

46:39

me what a life worth

46:42

living is when you have that

46:44

many people who love you,

46:46

who want to be there to

46:48

say goodbye. That's

46:51

what really matters. In

46:56

some ways, I've neglected that until much

46:58

later in life, too. know,

47:01

I didn't get married to

47:03

Roxanne until I was 57. And

47:08

so I just want

47:10

to be very mindful of

47:12

what my priorities are

47:14

moving forward, because the last

47:16

thing I want around

47:18

me when I'm going to

47:20

wherever we go after

47:22

living here are awards and

47:24

accolades. You know, I

47:27

just want. people that i

47:29

love holding my hand

47:31

while i go the sorry

47:33

to be so this

47:35

but no i think this

47:37

is a this is

47:39

the destination of our conversation

47:41

right it's both being

47:44

able to find our way

47:46

in the world despite

47:48

the curveballs that we all

47:50

receive doing

47:52

those things being revered

47:54

and whether those are from

47:57

awards, you know, external internal

47:59

work that you've done, like

48:01

being able to reconcile so

48:03

much only to then at

48:05

the end of that

48:07

process, realize that, Oh shit,

48:09

that doesn't mean anything. I

48:13

mean, I feel very blessed in a

48:16

lot of ways and very, very lucky

48:18

in a lot of ways, but I

48:20

also, Like watching

48:22

everybody around Nicole

48:24

Gay, that's

48:27

a life worth living. That

48:29

was a life full of

48:31

love and meaning. How

48:38

do we do that? With

48:41

intention. Yeah. If you just

48:43

take, if you just take a page out

48:45

of her book, would you think that that's

48:48

the, yeah. Yeah. But

48:50

a lot of very

48:52

deliberate choices. Can

48:54

I tell you what lights me

48:56

up about that? Is that it's

48:58

available to every single person who's

49:01

listening right now. I

49:04

hope so. I do hope so.

49:06

You know, it might not be with

49:08

our birth families. It might be

49:10

with our chosen families or our married

49:12

families. You know, there's a

49:14

lot of there's always been a lot of

49:16

strife in my birth family. But, you know, I

49:19

do have my cousins and that's really important

49:21

to me. I have a little brother that's really

49:23

important to me and his children are really

49:25

important to me. So and then I have a

49:27

lot of like God kids that I've taken

49:29

under my wing. The

49:32

concept of intention

49:34

as the vector

49:36

for a life

49:38

worth living. To

49:42

me, that's a

49:45

very both inspirational and

49:47

wise thing for. I

49:51

feel like to map that

49:53

on to your latest work, right?

49:55

Like this is what this

49:57

is, what a love love letter

49:59

to a garden is. There's

50:02

intention with that. There's creativity. I mean,

50:04

I think I even use this as

50:06

an example of the concept of tending

50:08

a garden. it was the

50:10

example i uh i used at

50:12

one point in creative calling if that's

50:14

not a creative act what is

50:16

is this do you feel like this

50:18

is a full circle that you're

50:21

you've written the love letter to a

50:23

garden at this time um well

50:25

let's see full circle i would say

50:27

full heart full heart okay yeah

50:29

i don't know that i could say

50:31

full circle because i don't want

50:33

in i don't want you don't want

50:35

to close it's a spiral there

50:37

we go I like that. It's

50:39

a better picture. As

50:41

I said earlier,

50:43

this is a book

50:45

like very few

50:47

other books that I

50:49

would want to

50:51

leave out on my

50:53

table, essentially ongoing. It

50:56

is simultaneously

50:59

beautiful and introspective.

51:01

There are

51:04

words that are

51:06

illustrated. like poetically,

51:08

there are blocks of texts that are

51:10

informational. That is just this amalgam of

51:13

interesting things that I, it's just beautiful

51:15

how you've woven them together. And I

51:17

don't know how you did it, but

51:19

I wanted to say thank you. I

51:21

wanted to say congratulations. And

51:23

I am curious if there's anything

51:25

about the book that you want

51:27

people to know about beyond, you

51:29

know, that it's beautiful and poetic

51:31

and makes you feel good when

51:33

you read it. Maybe

51:36

the fact that there's awesome recipes

51:38

at the end. Oh, yeah.

51:40

Yeah, I forgot. Yes, absolutely. That's

51:42

what I want to tell people. So,

51:44

you know, in making all of these. drawings

51:47

and, well, no, I'm going to

51:49

take it back. In creating this little

51:51

garden that I did, you know,

51:53

some of it was successful and we

51:55

got really good cucumbers every year.

51:57

Now we're getting tomatoes. That

51:59

salad looked very delicious. Yes. And

52:02

so my very first salad that

52:04

Roxanne made was just... you know

52:06

incredible like i'm eating something i

52:08

grew um and then over the

52:10

years as i said we get

52:12

great tomatoes and she's made she's

52:14

created this recipe for a tomato

52:17

get let which is just To

52:19

die for. She makes

52:21

a strawberry tall cake instead

52:23

of a short cake with lots

52:26

of layers and lots of

52:28

strawberries. So that's something that I'm

52:30

really excited about, that she

52:32

contributed these 10 recipes that she

52:34

made to the end of

52:36

the book with the things that

52:38

we brew. If the book

52:40

wasn't enduring enough on its own,

52:42

now you have some absolutely

52:44

beautiful recipes in there. Fran,

52:46

thank you for joining us,

52:48

for being vulnerable and heartfelt and

52:50

earnest and so freaking good

52:52

at humaning. You are

52:54

an inspiration and you always will be

52:56

for me. You're welcome here anytime

52:58

you create anything. I want to share

53:00

with the world everything that you

53:02

make and put out. The

53:05

world knows how to buy books, so

53:07

we don't need to tell them that. And

53:09

they're very good at it. Our community

53:11

is very good at supporting authors. Is there

53:13

anything else before we let you go?

53:15

I just want to say thank you, Chase.

53:17

You're always so generous with me and

53:19

so kind. And you're just

53:21

a beautiful human being with a

53:23

big heart. And I can't even

53:25

begin to tell you how much

53:27

I appreciate it, but I'm trying

53:29

right now. I can't wait to

53:31

be with you again in person.

53:33

I mean, this works for a

53:35

while, but I'm getting I'm past

53:37

I'm overdue here. Um, thank

53:39

you so much for being my friend

53:41

and for putting amazing things out

53:44

in the world and helping so many

53:46

people out there feel seen and

53:48

heard and joyful and connected. I love

53:50

you. You're amazing. Thank you. Thank

53:52

you, Chase. Until next, until

53:54

next time signing off from Debbie

53:56

and myself, we hope you

53:58

have an amazing day. Thank you

54:01

everybody. Remember, love letter to

54:03

a garden. Thank you. All

54:07

right. Hey, before you go, thanks

54:09

so much for listening. And if

54:11

you got value from this show,

54:13

chances are your community will too,

54:15

right? In the particular lies universal.

54:17

Please share this link to the

54:19

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54:21

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54:23

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54:25

exchange for providing value to you.

54:28

I want you to know that I

54:30

really appreciate your time, the attention,

54:32

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54:34

and the questions that you ask

54:36

our guests either on social media or

54:38

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54:41

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54:43

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54:45

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54:51

show, the tidbits that you learn and

54:53

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54:55

of that has a collective massive, impact

54:57

on the world. So just a

54:59

quick thank you. I appreciate all the

55:01

effort you put into sharing for

55:03

show. All right. That's a wrap. Let's

55:05

put today's episode into practice and

55:07

get back to growing together.