0:00

The hardest thing that I

0:02

have ever done is live through

0:04

it the first time. You know,

0:06

some of these really tough things

0:08

that I talk about. Maybe the

0:10

next hardest was to put it

0:12

on to the paper and have

0:14

it outside of me, even with

0:16

nobody else looking at it, because

0:18

then it's not negotiable. I've put

0:20

it on to paper. I've released

0:22

this story. That's not the truth.

0:24

It's my truth. It's my truth. It's

0:27

my truth. This episode is brought

0:29

to you. by My Latest Book Never Play

0:31

It's Safe. Right now, if you do not

0:33

have a copy of my latest

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book, I want you to listen

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to what Gary Vainerchak said about

0:39

my latest book. Building a life

0:42

you love doesn't happen on accident.

0:44

It's a process. Few people know

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this process like Chase Jarvis does

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and never play it safe is

0:50

the roadmap. Or what Sophia Amarooso said.

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This book is a powerful compass

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for embracing risk and creativity in...

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all the aspects of your life.

0:58

Chase shows us how to step

1:01

out of our comfort zones and

1:03

become who we were meant to

1:05

be. Here's a cool fact. All of

1:07

the best stuff in life is on the

1:09

other side of your comfort zone. And Never

1:11

Play It Safe is a blueprint. That's how

1:13

I designed it. It's a blueprint

1:16

to get you there reliably over

1:18

and over again. It's not an

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accident that this was a national

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bestseller on I think four best-selling

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book lists. That's because it is

1:27

a roadmap. It's a blueprint, right? It's

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going to reshape how you think about

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attention, time, intuition, constraints, those things that

1:33

you feel like hold you back. If

1:35

you're not playing enough, if you're working

1:37

too much, you're working in the wrong

1:39

way, if failure seems too constant and you

1:41

can't see what the benefits are, or

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if you don't have the practices and

1:46

the habits to help you achieve

1:48

the extraordinary results that you seek. This

1:50

is the book. This is the book that

1:52

I put three years of my life in

1:54

its goal is to help you be more

1:57

creative fulfilled and successful in everything

1:59

that you And if this

2:01

hasn't convinced you or the blurbs

2:03

from Gary Vainerchak and Seth Godin

2:05

and Sophia and Damon John from

2:08

Shark Tank, then I get it.

2:10

There's a bunch of other reviews

2:12

at Amazon or wherever you buy

2:14

books. And I love it if

2:16

you pick up a copy, if

2:19

never play it safe, a practical

2:21

guide to freedom, creativity, and a

2:23

life you love. Now, let's get

2:25

into the show. I'm your host,

2:27

your guide, Chase, and it brings

2:29

me great pleasure to introduce our

2:32

guest today. If you can believe

2:34

it, today's episode is recorded in

2:36

person, both my guest and I

2:38

today in one room, and it

2:40

feels so good, and I think

2:42

you can hear the vibrancy in

2:44

the conversation, but you're also going

2:47

to be able to feel the

2:49

vibrancy because the guest that we

2:51

have today is a powerhouse, a

2:53

superhero of sorts, and I am

2:55

so grateful to call her a

2:57

friend. Welcome, please Melissa Arno Reed.

2:59

Now, Melissa is the first American

3:01

woman to successfully summit and descend

3:04

Everest without supplemental oxygen. I had

3:06

the amazing good fortune of having

3:08

Melissa guide me up Africa's highest

3:10

peak, Mount Kilimanjaro. This is, gosh,

3:12

probably 10 plus years ago. She's

3:14

been on the show once before.

3:16

But today is special, not just

3:19

because we get to talk about

3:21

her guiding expeditions. Again, she is

3:23

a total badass, but specifically because

3:25

she has written a memoir. And

3:27

the memoir is, regardless if you're

3:29

a climber, if you've ever had

3:31

any mountain to climb, let alone

3:34

Everest, and by mountain, I mean

3:36

a personal journey that you need

3:38

to go on to overcome, go

3:40

up, over, around, through obstacles in

3:42

your life. today's episode is for

3:44

you, this book that she has

3:46

written, this memoir, it's called Enough.

3:49

You can probably gather from her

3:51

being the first American woman to

3:53

climb Everest without supplement oxygen, that

3:55

she would be a insanely hardworking,

3:57

very determined, and just, again, I

3:59

keep using the word powerhouse because

4:01

I... that lack other, lack the

4:04

vocabulary necessary to define it without

4:06

you just hearing the conversation. So

4:08

maybe that's actually my cue. Again,

4:10

yours truly today and Melissa Arno

4:12

Reed, prepare yourself for an adventure

4:14

of the spirit of the heart

4:16

of the soul and enjoy the

4:19

show. Yours truly and Melissa Arno

4:21

Reed. Welcome

4:26

to the show, you're back. Thank you,

4:28

I'm so excited to be back. It's

4:30

been a while. It's been a minute,

4:33

some things have changed. Some things have

4:35

changed. Yeah. And my favorite thing about

4:37

right now that has happened since you

4:40

walked in the door between when you

4:42

walked in the door and filming is

4:44

when I said I feel like, although

4:46

we have spent 10 days and 15

4:49

hours together. Yep. 20 years. It really

4:51

does. It's like 15 years. We're just,

4:53

it's not 20, we're too young for

4:55

it to have been 20. Yeah, let's

4:58

be, we'll throw that back just a

5:00

little bit. Yeah, but it does. It

5:02

does go that way. And this is

5:05

your second time on the show. Repeat,

5:07

yes, there's not a lot of them,

5:09

but there are some. And the ones

5:11

that are folks like you who've done

5:14

amazing things, and as I like to

5:16

say lived to tell about it, I

5:18

would love for you to share with

5:20

people who are listening a little bit,

5:23

like give us the 120 second, like

5:25

why are you sitting here today? What

5:27

are we talking about? Because it's essentially

5:29

give me like a shell of who

5:32

you are because we know we can't

5:34

do that in 120 seconds. Orient the

5:36

listeners. Yeah, so last time I came

5:39

in here we were talking about sort

5:41

of our relationship getting to know each

5:43

other in the mountains I work as

5:45

a professional mountain guide I'm the first

5:48

American woman to summit Everest without supplemental

5:50

oxygen Really well known for my years

5:52

spent climbing Everest. I have six summits

5:54

of the peak and I travel internationally

5:57

and guide year-round. And that's a huge

5:59

part of my identity. And anybody who

6:01

maybe knows about Everest a lot or

6:04

knows about me knows that. And why

6:06

I'm here today is because that is

6:08

part of my story, but it's not

6:10

my whole story. And I finally am

6:13

ready and able to tell a more

6:15

complete story. And I can't imagine a

6:17

better place to sit and do it

6:19

than with you. that both lights me

6:22

up and terrifies me because I do

6:24

think it's a great responsibility that you've

6:26

decided to own having a lot of

6:28

people in my life who are very

6:31

public facing who have achievement as a

6:33

core piece of their identity whether that

6:35

through you know sports or business or

6:38

just you know, becoming the best in

6:40

the world or at the elite level.

6:42

That is seductive culturally and what is

6:44

not seductive culturally is all of the

6:47

shit that goes with it. Yeah. And

6:49

a lot of people have, when I,

6:51

you know, they are familiar with me

6:53

or my work, I will say, yeah,

6:56

and as a person who gets to

6:58

run around as a photographer photographing those

7:00

people in my own right on my

7:03

other side of the camera, you know

7:05

just enough to be dangerous about what

7:07

it really takes to get to the

7:09

levels of success, happiness, fulfillment, or all

7:12

of the other stuff that no one

7:14

likes to talk about. And most people

7:16

don't like to hear about that. Oh,

7:18

it was so cool to work with

7:21

this person. I'm like, total asshole. Not

7:23

at all awesome. Like, oh, really? Well,

7:25

really? Will they come out so cool

7:28

on TV, you know, media, whatever? And

7:30

you know this. Well, I think one

7:32

of the largest fallacies about, you know,

7:34

you know, ease in your life, having

7:37

happiness, having achievement is that somehow an

7:39

achievement will result in you feeling all

7:41

of those feelings of contentment. And what

7:43

I learned in my journey is that

7:46

you really have to arrive at a

7:48

place of contentment first to be able

7:50

to actually understand the correct place of

7:52

achievement in the world. And I think

7:55

we're so focused on the arrival, you

7:57

know, and I like pardon my tripping

7:59

over all the mountain cliches that are

8:02

about to come here because there's gonna

8:04

be many, but like we focus so

8:06

much on the summit as this destination

8:08

that you arrive at. But the journey

8:11

is everything that matters. in so many

8:13

ways is like the toil of daily

8:15

living and I had this realization you

8:17

know one season of my life where

8:20

I was kind of like waiting to

8:22

get through something and I was like

8:24

once this is done then then I'll

8:27

be able to you know whatever like

8:29

once I finish this pile then I'm

8:31

gonna be able to relax and and

8:33

you just realize that that doesn't ever

8:36

come and also maybe it does come

8:38

but if you're just waiting to get

8:40

there you're that waiting to get there

8:42

is your life that you're using up,

8:45

you know? And it's like, I joke

8:47

that you don't see very many selfies

8:49

of somebody like randomly walking along the

8:51

quite, you know, non-esthetic boring path on

8:54

the way to the summit of at

8:56

risk. Like, of course, they're stunning terrain

8:58

all around, but like, you just don't

9:01

see much of that and you sure

9:03

see a lot of summit selfies. But

9:05

to me, that's just like this one

9:07

suspended moment in time that doesn't matter.

9:10

if you're not able to bring it

9:12

back down to that place of contentment.

9:14

And I think contentment is a pretty

9:16

abstract concept, but a very important one.

9:19

So I feel like I'm going to

9:21

have to do a job of keeping

9:23

us. Like I want to talk about

9:26

everything that you just said, and there's

9:28

also a lifetime of material right there.

9:30

And some of the things that I,

9:32

no, no, I'm going to I'm going

9:35

to unpack a little bit. I'm just

9:37

going to just like leave some things

9:39

in the table and then we can

9:41

pick up what makes sense. I'm thinking

9:44

about the lens of what you just

9:46

said, trying to think about it through

9:48

the lens of the listener. And we,

9:51

before we start recording, just re-shared.

9:53

journey that you went

9:55

through. Your new

9:57

book is called Enough.

10:00

It's amazing. I'm

10:02

holding it up here

10:04

if you're listening

10:06

rather than watching. And

10:09

we talked about the journey of writing

10:11

a book, how difficult it is and

10:13

what you shared in your opening sentiment

10:15

about the desire to. There's a line

10:18

in this book and I don't remember the

10:20

exact line, but it was something

10:22

like, I finally decided that

10:24

I want to tell the truth.

10:26

And the truth sounds different.

10:28

It feels different in your body

10:30

when you say it. And

10:33

what it takes to

10:35

tell the truth is a

10:37

lot when we were talking

10:39

about going through the process of that and how

10:41

that translates to writing a book. I shared with you

10:43

that I did not, that I

10:45

just went writing on a book for two years

10:47

and threw it all in the trash. What I

10:49

didn't tell you about was what

10:51

that book was about. So I'm

10:53

going to tell you that right

10:55

now. The book was about exactly

10:57

what your book is about that

10:59

the path to achievement is actually,

11:01

it's the sexy thing, but it's not

11:03

the real thing. And the

11:05

reason I threw mine in the

11:08

trash is because I couldn't do it.

11:10

It wasn't good enough. It was

11:12

a good book and it would have

11:14

checked the leadership box, creativity

11:16

box, business box, but I

11:18

couldn't do it and you did it. So

11:20

I literally couldn't do it. I

11:23

wasn't good enough. The work that I

11:25

couldn't, I didn't have the story in my own

11:27

life. Not only do you

11:29

have the story, but it's a fucking

11:31

incredible book and you did the thing.

11:33

I couldn't come off not sounding like

11:35

a total jackass. And

11:38

you have the metaphor of a mountain

11:40

that you've climbed many, many times

11:42

in Everest. And so you've been

11:44

to the top. You've been to the peak.

11:46

You've seen it and you've realized that that's not

11:48

it. It is, as you say, the story.

11:50

So first of all, just praise a human human.

11:53

Fucking amazing. Second of

11:55

all, second of all,

11:57

that really is the game. that

12:00

you are able to articulate in

12:02

this book, it's not the summits,

12:04

it's all of the other things

12:06

and not just the good things,

12:08

the tough things too that make

12:10

you who you are. So through that lens,

12:13

A, thank you, from the artist and

12:15

the reader in me is like, oh

12:17

man, she nailed it, she did it.

12:19

I'm super grateful to call you my

12:21

friend and proud. So I do,

12:24

though, need to start to excavate

12:26

the book because... Historically

12:28

you have toured the world

12:30

talking about achievement as someone

12:32

who has done something that only

12:35

a handful of humans on

12:37

the planet have done. And yet, and

12:39

that still provides a nice living

12:41

and you get to do things

12:43

and yet your story that you

12:45

have told in this book is I would

12:48

say the real story, what made you a

12:50

want to tell it and then b, what

12:52

was it like doing so? I think

12:54

that so much of my public facing life,

12:57

you know, Everest has been the main character

12:59

and I am a side character in

13:01

that story. You know, the achievement of

13:03

the summit, the challenge of the climb,

13:05

all of the natural metaphors that are

13:07

true and do exist there have been

13:09

sort of center stage and I in

13:11

some ways have loved that because I

13:13

wasn't ready for center stage in so

13:15

many ways. I wasn't capable of standing

13:18

in that place, but it also felt

13:20

like somewhat inauthentic because... It's not the

13:22

entirety of who I am, it's not

13:24

the entirety of my story. And my

13:26

story for me has always felt a

13:28

little bit incomplete when I'm sharing

13:30

it with people because I can't

13:32

possibly give all of the nuance

13:34

and the complexity of what, when

13:37

somebody just asks me, you know,

13:39

what made you decide to climb

13:41

Everest without oxygen? You know, my

13:43

honest answer is that I was

13:45

curious. Curiosity is one of my

13:47

values. I was an obnoxiously curious

13:49

adult. I was curious if

13:52

I could, and that's true.

13:54

But it's also true that

13:56

I wanted to prove that

13:58

I belonged. For me, the

14:01

process of both writing this book and

14:03

then coming to a place of being

14:05

able to share the stories in it,

14:08

there were sort of two central questions

14:10

that I realized that I'd been carrying

14:12

with me for my whole life. And

14:15

one was, am I good? You know,

14:17

am I good or am I bad?

14:19

And the other one was, am I

14:22

good enough? And those two questions were

14:24

really what were propelling me through some

14:26

objectively really traumatic stuff and pushing me

14:29

towards trying to focus on a discomfort

14:31

that I could control instead of the

14:33

discomfort that I couldn't. And to be

14:36

able now to share those stories, honestly,

14:38

and it's so vital to me and

14:40

so important to be able to say

14:43

like, this is not a hero's story

14:45

about me conquering. This is not a

14:47

story of, you know, somebody who you're

14:50

just going to say, wow, a perfect

14:52

people can do perfect things. It's quite

14:54

the opposite. It's a really flawed. person

14:57

who's struggling and creating obstacles unnecessarily for

14:59

themselves and also being given circumstances outside

15:01

of their control facing objectively traumatic and

15:04

really challenging things and trying to find

15:06

a way through it to just survive

15:08

first and then second to answer those

15:11

two questions. Am I good? And am

15:13

I good enough? And you know, ultimately

15:15

I can say sitting here today, I

15:18

know the answers. What are the answers?

15:20

I think that am I good enough

15:22

is probably the first easiest one to

15:25

answer it's like I answer it with

15:27

a point of curiosity of like and

15:29

what is you know like what bar

15:32

where is this bar of good enoughness

15:34

that I'm trying to like meet it's

15:36

continuously forever moving and as a person

15:39

who you know cares about achievement and

15:41

is wired that way like it's a

15:43

perpetually moving bar yeah and so the

15:46

idea of good enough if you never

15:48

agree to arrive at that place, then

15:50

you'll just spend your whole life striving

15:53

for something that is like completely out

15:55

of reach, you know? And I do

15:57

love striving. I love trying to do

16:00

like nearly impossible things just for the

16:02

fun of, you know, being humbled by

16:04

man and nature continuously. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

16:07

I'm not going to win. I'm not

16:09

going to win that one. And I

16:11

like to get humbled and just remind

16:14

myself of like that general humility. But

16:16

yes, I am good enough. no summit

16:18

five times, six times, no summit without

16:21

oxygen, no summit without, you know, the

16:23

support of a team. None of that

16:25

is gonna make me good enough because

16:28

it's an intrinsic thing. And the same

16:30

was good. You know, I really had

16:32

to go deep back into some really

16:35

foundational wounds that I had from a

16:37

really rough childhood to answer this question

16:39

of. you know, not so much am

16:42

I good, but why do I not

16:44

think I am? Like what, you know,

16:46

what would make a five-year-old good? And

16:49

it's, you know, I have one of

16:51

those. And so it's interesting to reflect

16:53

on like, what's the opposite of that?

16:56

What would make them bad? And why

16:58

is that my internal narrative that I

17:00

believe that I'm not good? And I

17:03

need to now go prove that I

17:05

am and that I'm good enough. You

17:07

know, and that I've chosen a really

17:10

bizarre. path in life for when I

17:12

talk about like my answer of pursuing

17:14

curiosity, but then also wanting to prove

17:17

myself and just logically speaking, you know,

17:19

if you want to prove that you

17:21

belong somewhere, a really good place to

17:24

go is a place where everybody looks

17:26

like you. And I chose quite the

17:28

opposite path. I was like, is there

17:31

a spot that I can go and

17:33

prove that I belong in where I

17:35

am the smallest, youngest, and one of

17:38

the only women there? Is there

17:40

any way that I can force myself

17:42

to belong in that place? Like, why

17:44

did I choose that obstacle, you know,

17:47

instead of a different place that? that

17:49

gave me a sense of belonging and

17:51

for me that truth exists in nature

17:54

right like I had this feeling that

17:56

nature gave me that was an intense

17:58

feeling of belonging and an intense feeling

18:01

of deservedness of being there and also

18:03

challenge and dynamicness and like you know

18:05

I talk about in my book like

18:08

nature to me was what I imagined

18:10

the love of a mother in an

18:12

idealized way to be it was both

18:15

you know abundant always there the warmth

18:17

of the sun on your face and

18:19

it was unpredictable and unrelenting and would

18:22

teach you swift lessons at times. You

18:24

know, and that to me was like

18:26

this idea of like, is that what

18:29

a mother is? Like that's my mother

18:31

nature. You know, that is the family

18:33

I belong in. Well, it's to be

18:36

to double click on that for people

18:38

who might not know a lot about

18:40

the mountaineering world. It's like 95 5

18:43

male nominated. Yeah. Yeah, and it's evolved

18:45

a little bit since I started 20

18:47

years ago, but there's no more than

18:50

10% percent of any. day on any,

18:52

I mean I shouldn't say any day

18:54

on any mountain, but like the big

18:57

mountains in the world you're looking at

18:59

10% of the population is going to

19:01

be. Right. And so you, like the,

19:04

deciding not to fit in, but to

19:06

have that mother nature aspect, I do

19:08

think that's a really interesting and helpful,

19:11

I hadn't thought about that. And you

19:13

talked about a lot, I love the

19:15

part of the book where you are

19:18

realizing. through having a couple of boyfriends

19:20

who introduced you to this earlier in

19:22

your life around like oh wow the

19:25

outdoors is like there is something magical

19:27

here you talked about the sun your

19:29

face sleeping you've slept a lot in

19:32

a lot of cars yes I've slept

19:34

a lot of I know which we

19:36

have to qualify you know homeless by

19:39

choice back at the truck intentional homeless

19:41

living before hashtag van life yeah yeah

19:43

yeah But I think that's a really

19:46

interesting foundation. So to be able to

19:48

discover who you are through your journey,

19:50

that's all we're ever chasing, right? We

19:53

really want to understand ourselves and our

19:55

world better. You do Chronicle a difficult

19:57

childhood and the storytelling there is absolutely

20:00

supreme. It's so good. I love how

20:02

you shared it and you endured a

20:04

lot. Was the outdoors something that

20:06

set you free or did you set

20:09

you free? Was it an internal agency

20:11

or was it an external experience? Yeah,

20:13

I mean, I think one of the

20:16

things that was residual from having a

20:18

really challenging upbringing that led into some

20:20

pretty traumatic things in my early, early

20:23

adolescence was that I had this questioning

20:25

of, again, my deservedness to be or

20:27

belong or, you know, and what nature

20:30

did was give me this irrefutable evidence

20:32

that I could achieve something. you know

20:34

that I had worth in a really

20:37

silly I mean I now as a

20:39

person who's made in my entire career

20:41

I think of it as a really

20:44

silly it's really silly like I walk

20:46

uphill slowly and I always think about

20:48

like Sometimes I giggle internally to myself

20:51

when people are complementing my accomplishments and

20:53

I'm like, you do realize that like,

20:55

I choose a place, I walk there,

20:58

I like, take a photo and I

21:00

turn around and walk back and that

21:02

is weird. Like, that is a weird

21:05

thing to clap for, but like, thank

21:07

you for clapping for that. And, but

21:09

what it did give me was the

21:12

sense of agency that I hadn't previously

21:14

felt. You know, I really needed to

21:16

interface with nature as a place where

21:19

I could challenge myself and I could

21:21

prove growth tangibly. And, you know, there's

21:23

these really tangible measures of, not success

21:26

necessarily, but like, places, benchmarks, you know,

21:28

like altitudes to reach, like you irrefutably

21:30

have reached that altitude under your own

21:33

power. And I talk about this with

21:35

Everest because it's such an armchair catch

21:37

topic for folks where, you know, people

21:40

have a lot of opinions on other

21:42

people climbing Everest. And one of my...

21:44

feelings is that even if you climb

21:47

Everest in the easiest way possible, it

21:49

is still quite hard. You know, there

21:51

isn't actually currently a way that you

21:54

can like genuinely be put into a

21:56

basket and carried to the summit and

21:58

not exert yourself in some way. And

22:01

I would argue that like even if

22:03

you were carried to the summit in

22:05

a basket, you're still having to endure

22:08

the challenge of physiology of nature challenging

22:10

you. You can't overcome that completely with

22:12

drugs and assistance, you know? I felt

22:15

in my first interactions with nature a

22:17

sense of expansive freedom because the world

22:19

became available to me through nature and

22:22

it was all under my own power.

22:24

It was this really gratifying thing and

22:26

I watch it happen with my clients

22:29

now and I watch it happen with

22:31

people, you know, some of my clients

22:33

are like incredibly extraordinary high achieving individuals.

22:36

that really need a sense of agency

22:38

over their accomplishment. They are having the

22:40

same questions that I was having for

22:43

probably very different reasons, but the question

22:45

of like do, you know, and I

22:47

lean away a little from the imposter

22:50

syndrome of it all, but it is

22:52

this idea of like, did I earn

22:54

this? Do, is this really, you know,

22:57

something that I achieved and when it

22:59

comes to nature and like walking up

23:01

hill slowly like you did that you

23:04

know it's irrefutable and there's this internal

23:06

sense of agency that I think is

23:08

really powerful and can reorient people's lives

23:11

and it reorient people's lives and it

23:13

reoriented mine for sure well that's part

23:15

of why the nature of my question

23:18

is sort of this internal external external

23:20

it just goes on throughout the whole

23:22

book we're all simultaneously people are listening

23:25

like there's an internal dialogue and then

23:27

there's the external world and all of

23:29

our who we are is a sort

23:32

of a reconciliation of those two things

23:34

deciding which of the voices you're gonna

23:36

listen to and you've you've done such

23:39

a beautiful job in the book weaving

23:41

that narrative that's part of why we

23:43

all resonate with the concept up enough

23:46

right as My friend Bernie Brown says,

23:48

you know, don't go through the world

23:50

looking to see if you belong, because

23:53

you will always find a reason not

23:55

to, because there's always something. And in,

23:57

you know, in the first, I don't

24:00

know, nine, eight-tenths of your career, which

24:02

you chronicle very deeply in the book,

24:04

you know, you. I think it's fair

24:07

to say that there wasn't a resounding

24:09

yes I'm enough because based on childhood

24:11

and wounds and other trauma you're like

24:14

oh actually I don't fit I need

24:16

to do all of these things I

24:18

need to jump through all these hoops

24:21

and so and I think it's really

24:23

important to acknowledge that like I was

24:25

creating those obstacles for myself so when

24:28

I referenced before how you know if

24:30

you want to belong What I chose

24:32

with the room that I was least

24:35

similar to and I went into that

24:37

room Well that was one obstacle right

24:39

to myself was like I could have

24:42

chosen a different place to feel a

24:44

sense of belonging But I really wanted

24:46

it to be hard because I had

24:49

an internal belief of like I don't

24:51

belong and I'm going to prove that

24:53

So let me choose it is going

24:56

to be hard and then you

24:58

know to acknowledge like I came into

25:00

that room by way of the thing

25:02

that made me not belong also really

25:05

opened the door for me because as

25:07

a young conventionally attractive woman in mountaineering

25:09

I'm probably going to get let into

25:12

the room first. Then I'm going to

25:14

have to deal with everybody saying, why

25:16

is she in the room? And so

25:19

that's going to make it harder. And

25:21

then I'm going to constantly be questioning

25:23

why am I in the room because

25:26

of my choices to get into relationships

25:28

with people in power and then not

25:30

be able to differentiate if I'm being

25:33

advanced because of my skills or because

25:35

of my relationships. And that was not

25:37

just happening to me. making that happen.

25:40

And over and over. Yeah, you would

25:42

have thought I would have learned the

25:44

first time, but no, I couldn't. You

25:47

know, I just kept choosing these choices

25:49

to deconstruct the idea every time. It's

25:51

almost like every single external, you know,

25:54

accomplishment that I achieved. So I get

25:56

to the summit of Everest and every.

25:58

everybody's like, that's incredible. You're 23 years

26:01

old, you're working as a mountain guide,

26:03

you're this young woman, you've been climbing

26:05

for like four years, and you just

26:08

got to the summit of Everest as

26:10

a guide. That's incredible. And I had to

26:12

like deconstruct that by getting there by way

26:14

of, you know, a relationship that I was

26:16

unsure of the intentions of and have to

26:18

certain. Question myself of, you know, why does

26:21

my client want me here and not be

26:23

able to actually feel good in that accomplishment?

26:25

And then the very next thing I'm going

26:27

to do is try to climb without oxygen

26:29

under the mentorship of one of my heroes

26:31

and be like, very quickly relegated into being

26:34

like essentially a child on the trip

26:36

and not worthy of being with somebody

26:38

so skilled in experience and I'm again

26:40

I'm creating this environment I'm engaging in

26:42

this environment it's gonna reinforce the narrative

26:44

that I do not in fact belong

26:46

but then I'm gonna continue to go

26:48

back and try again and like there

26:50

was two you know there's probably a

26:53

million little me's inside of there fighting

26:55

their way out but like there was

26:57

two very dominant things going on that were

26:59

variously, one stronger than the

27:01

other, which is this belief

27:04

that I am nothing, I deserve

27:06

nothing, and this other belief that,

27:08

if anybody, why not me? And

27:11

my whole younger life was

27:13

a conflict of these two very

27:15

strong narratives, and I had to

27:17

go and almost die

27:19

to understand where all that

27:21

was coming from. And I

27:23

part of this book is like, I

27:26

don't want people to have to do

27:28

that. You don't need to almost die.

27:30

You don't need to face the absolute

27:32

catastrophic devastation that I

27:35

did both just emotionally internally

27:37

for myself and like objectively

27:39

the tragedies that I experienced

27:42

in the mountains to be able to know

27:44

that life is worth living. Yeah they call

27:46

it the death zone for a reason because

27:48

people die up there and a lot of

27:50

people and people you know and in a

27:53

small community that has real impact. Yeah.

27:55

So let me back up I would say

27:57

a couple of clicks to the...

27:59

achievement that the way that I

28:01

have struggled to articulate this is

28:03

and I think someone who said

28:05

it best I think it was

28:07

Jim Carrey I think everyone should

28:09

get rich and famous so you

28:11

can realize that it's not all

28:13

it is yeah and then so

28:15

there's people listening right now and

28:17

you want to save them you

28:19

want to tell like hey look

28:21

I'm gonna tell you the stove

28:24

is hot you don't have to

28:26

touch it yeah and yet I'm

28:28

also going to probably be like

28:30

just touch it a little bit.

28:32

Just do it a little bit.

28:34

It'll just be a scar. This

28:36

is part of what's interesting right

28:38

is the the if we by

28:40

extension here you specifically told them

28:42

hey look it's not about being

28:44

you know achievement and all of

28:46

the things that I've done it's

28:48

about belonging and knowing that you're

28:50

enough as you're enough as you're

28:52

right now. The reality is

28:54

that people struggle to take that advice. Yeah.

28:56

And this is hardwired into us and like

28:58

completely reinforced culturally. Yes. By the what we

29:00

perceive as successful and all. So how so

29:03

now what where does that leave us? Like

29:05

you wrote this incredible book and you're saying

29:07

and I mean the title is enough climbing

29:09

toward a true self on Mount Everest. And

29:11

you're saying, you're enough right now and yet

29:13

most people are going to have to touch

29:16

the stove to see that it's hot and

29:18

know that you're right. And realize that we

29:20

get to the top, the top is a

29:22

very temporary lonely thing and you look around

29:24

and then you, you said, take a picture,

29:26

you click, you're watching, you head back down

29:29

or you head on even worse onto the

29:31

next summit hoping that it's going to be

29:33

harder. There are going to be more people

29:35

there or you're going to find belonging and

29:37

connection and all the all the stuff. reinforce

29:39

that as true because I've experienced it and

29:42

know it to be true and yet there

29:44

are someone who's listening to this right now

29:46

who doesn't believe you. Yeah, I mean I

29:48

think that it lives in the land of

29:50

both and right not either. war.

29:52

And it's this idea

29:55

that going because I

29:57

just, you know, I

29:59

referenced it before of

30:01

this idea that like

30:03

nature gave me an

30:05

opportunity to tangibly prove

30:07

that I was capable,

30:10

right? So that feeling

30:12

is real. But

30:14

also, it's not that you have

30:16

to get to the summit to

30:18

be deserving to try, you know,

30:20

to go on that journey. And

30:22

I think that it took so

30:24

long for me to come to,

30:26

it took, you know, an entire

30:28

career of guiding on Everest. It

30:30

took six summits. It took getting

30:32

to the summit without oxygen. It

30:34

took failing to get to the

30:36

summit without oxygen multiple times. It

30:38

took the death of my friends,

30:40

mentors, the end of a marriage,

30:43

the, you know, dissolution of my

30:45

relationship with my family. And all

30:47

of that then took a moment

30:49

of pause, an intense self reflection.

30:51

And that's kind of where I

30:53

think a lot of us stop

30:55

is in that moment. And when

30:57

you've just like dumped out the

30:59

toy boxes and you're like, this

31:01

is a mess. So

31:03

I am a mess. And

31:05

I decided to, instead of just

31:07

saying this is a mess,

31:09

start moving stuff around and go

31:11

through this process of, you

31:14

know, it's unsatisfying to say, because

31:16

it's so intangible

31:18

to describe how to do it, but

31:20

like true self forgiveness. And all I'm

31:22

forgiving is that I'm human and that

31:24

humans are flawed. And we are hardwired

31:26

to make, we are going to touch

31:28

the stove. And guess what? Like, I'm

31:30

probably going to touch it again. Like,

31:32

I hope I recognize that that's a

31:34

stove that's too hot to touch. And

31:36

I hope that the scars that I

31:38

have stay scars and don't become scabs

31:40

that I pick. That's my wish in

31:42

my life is that that's growth. And

31:44

that growth, I think is available to

31:46

us all. No matter where you are,

31:48

what you're doing in your life, I

31:50

really deeply believe that you can look

31:52

at the mess and you can choose

31:54

which parts you're going to clean up.

31:56

And you're not going to let that

31:58

be your mess anymore. And

32:00

I know that's like I'm

32:02

speaking a metaphor, but it's

32:04

so important, I think, to

32:06

be able to. I couldn't

32:08

have told this story because

32:11

I couldn't have looked honestly

32:13

at my own story 10

32:15

years ago. You know, I

32:17

just couldn't have had submitted

32:19

without oxygen. I wasn't

32:22

yet ready to acknowledge

32:24

all of the ways in which

32:26

I was preventing myself

32:28

from having it. And I know

32:31

it's really unsatisfying to hear that

32:33

it's us that are the problem.

32:35

Very, because I would really love

32:37

for, I would love for the problem

32:40

to be Ian, but it's not. I'm

32:42

sorry, it's just not. It's you. You

32:44

are your own problem. Well, one

32:46

of the things that I, one of

32:48

the many things that I love and

32:50

that I was doing in the process

32:53

of the book is, as you know, and

32:55

the listeners know, I did a book in

32:57

the fall. It's never play it safe.

32:59

My sort of, the three word, the

33:01

three liner is all the best stuff

33:04

in the world is on the other

33:06

side of our comfort zone. And so

33:08

I want to try and have a

33:11

blueprint to reliably get there. So

33:13

I'm, as I'm reading your book

33:15

and listening to you right now,

33:17

I'm like, yes, that's true. But

33:20

the punch, the real punch line

33:22

I feel like is, and I want,

33:24

I want your response to this.

33:26

I feel like the real punch

33:28

line is. Look, it's not about

33:30

making mistakes. It's not about not

33:32

making mistakes. It's about making

33:35

them and then forgiving yourself 1%

33:37

faster, being 1% more kind, 1%

33:39

more thoughtful than the time before.

33:41

So it's just this constant sort

33:44

of returning again to yourself kind

33:46

or better, more gentle than the

33:48

time before. Yeah, I mean, I

33:50

think that what you're describing is

33:52

resilience. It's this idea that... you

33:54

know, we'd, resilience is not never

33:56

facing challenge. And one of the

33:58

core concepts of resilience. It is not

34:00

born in comfort. You cannot build resilience

34:03

in comfort. And so for me, I

34:05

professionally keep my fingers really... closely, gently

34:07

holding on to this dial between discomfort

34:09

and danger. And danger is the things

34:12

that will actually kill you. And I'm

34:14

not speaking metaphorically anymore, I'm speaking actually.

34:16

And then the discomfort is just the

34:18

thing that your brain tells you will

34:20

kill you to try to get you

34:23

to stop being uncomfortable. And if you

34:25

can live in that space of discomfort

34:27

right where it gets close to danger...

34:29

That's where you get growth because that's

34:32

where resilience builds. You know, that's proving

34:34

to yourself that you are, what you're

34:36

saying, like you can not, you know,

34:38

avoid mistakes, but you can forgive yourself

34:40

for making them, learn from them, and

34:43

continue forward. And it's like... you know,

34:45

with having little kids, everything is teaching

34:47

them and my daughter, you know, learning

34:49

how to ride her bike when she

34:52

was like three and four years old

34:54

and we have a really bumpy driveway

34:56

and she like didn't ever want to

34:58

ride her bike down the driveway because

35:01

the bumps. And I was constantly telling

35:03

her like, we can't avoid the bumps,

35:05

we have to figure out how to

35:07

either. You know, we can start out

35:09

going around the bumps, but eventually a

35:12

bump is going to come and you

35:14

just have to be able to not

35:16

let the bump knock you down. And

35:18

the first time she rode down the

35:21

driveway and hit the bump and didn't

35:23

fall off the bike, it was like,

35:25

this is resilience. We built resilience. We

35:27

built resilience in front of our faces

35:29

right now and we have this like

35:32

cute forever thing where, you know, in

35:34

the morning, when it's hectic and we're

35:36

trying to get to school and things

35:38

are going. you know we're just reminding

35:41

ourselves that discomfort is about sort of

35:43

bobbling but keeping going and you know

35:45

that is the essential work of this

35:47

life from my opinion. Yeah and you

35:49

you essentially live that every day so

35:52

quick pivot here because the way that

35:54

we know one another is that you

35:56

were the lead guide on a climb

35:58

to of Kilimanjaro, the highest summit in

36:01

Africa, which I was, I was a

36:03

client and also, yeah. You're working your

36:05

tail off and that's a client. But

36:07

I was ostensibly a client and so

36:09

got to observe your leadership, follow your

36:12

lead, you know, into, it's not too

36:14

many people die on that mountain. But

36:16

you know, you're at 20,000 feet of

36:18

elevation. And there was a bunch of

36:21

funny little asterisks about this trip, which

36:23

there was a bunch of essentially rock

36:25

stars and we were going as an

36:27

effort to raise awareness for access to

36:29

clean drinking water. And we were beaming

36:32

satellite pictures and all the stuff back.

36:34

We were making a documentary at the

36:36

same time. And it was. freaking fascinating

36:38

but it was fascinating to watch you

36:41

work in that world to tell these

36:43

ostensibly creative and business leaders all right

36:45

put your glasses off take your you

36:47

know you're these shoes off put your

36:50

pants on we're going this way it's

36:52

at this time yeah and how how

36:54

a what a skill that is and

36:56

also be what a super weird job

36:58

that is. Yes, I mean I always

37:01

think about what I do as a

37:03

guide is like constantly assess whether you

37:05

need to be cuddled or kicked to

37:07

motivate you to do the thing I

37:10

want you to do and like everybody

37:12

kind of lives in one of those

37:14

categories more or less you know? And

37:16

it is like the thing I really

37:18

love about it is that it is

37:21

this like amazing sociology experiment. of like

37:23

what makes, I love thinking about what

37:25

motivates people, myself and others, and I

37:27

love, I mean, so my, you know,

37:30

early, early work, well, so my first,

37:32

one of my first jobs was working

37:34

at the front desk of a health

37:36

club, and the things. that I could

37:38

articulate that I really loved about it

37:41

was that I got to see people

37:43

in a state of existence, they would

37:45

not let anyone else see them in.

37:47

So like they're showing up at 5

37:50

a.m. to the gym with like their

37:52

hair in a top pony and no

37:54

makeup on and then leaving as this

37:56

like very polished high achieving woman. You

37:58

know, I'm seeing somebody come in with

38:01

their insecurities in front of them saying

38:03

like I want to get better. And

38:05

I as a young person, I just

38:07

could see that. vulnerable in front of

38:10

me and then my you know fast

38:12

forward some years and life and whatever

38:14

I became you know EMT and paramedic

38:16

working on ambulance and the same thing

38:18

I valued was that you know in

38:21

if you're calling 911 like There's a

38:23

lot of reason why you might do

38:25

that, but it's very unlikely that you're

38:27

fully prepared to have me in your

38:30

house or your space or wherever you

38:32

are your face and there's an incredible

38:34

There's an all up in all the

38:36

things There's an incredible vulnerability to it

38:39

and then I look forward it like

38:41

where you know the bulk of my

38:43

career has been working as a guide

38:45

and it's like I'm asking the same

38:47

thing of people I'm asking them to

38:50

be as vulnerable as possible because they're

38:52

putting they have to for it to

38:54

work they have to and it's just

38:56

such an incredible gift an opportunity to

38:59

get to see that in people and

39:01

work with that and I'm endlessly curious

39:03

about like who we really are when

39:05

we stop trying to be who we

39:07

think people think we are because I

39:10

love like one of my favorite quotes

39:12

of all time is David Foster Wallace

39:14

says, like you'll stop carrying what people

39:16

think of you when you realize they

39:19

rarely do. And there's this beautiful vulnerability

39:21

that comes about in the mountains where

39:23

it's like, you can start a relationship,

39:25

and you probably saw this on our

39:27

Kilimanjaro crime, right, where like everybody's presenting

39:30

a version, we're all doing this in

39:32

life, right, every day, like a version

39:34

of ourselves and how we want to

39:36

be seen. And I can corrode that

39:39

version daily with altitude, an effort, and

39:41

weather. and discomfort of your sleeping arrangement

39:43

and the fact that you now haven't

39:45

showered and like you're eating food that's

39:47

not familiar to you and you're not

39:50

bathing and you don't have access to...

39:52

your phone and like you know I'm

39:54

going to corrode all these layers of

39:56

facade that we keep on us to

39:59

protect our true self and and I

40:01

get these little teeny glimmers of like

40:03

people's true self and I gotta say

40:05

despite what you might think with you

40:07

know society and looking at humanity like

40:10

when we let all that go there's

40:12

some really amazing stuff inside people it's

40:14

pretty cool it's one of my favorite

40:16

things about mother nature yeah she's undefeated

40:19

Can you be outside with Mother Nature

40:21

for a while? You get to see

40:23

true colors and you realize that you

40:25

have no choice but to be humbled

40:28

because she's, that's a thousand. Yeah. Anytime

40:30

she wants to hit the ball, she

40:32

hits the ball and who loses? you.

40:34

Well, and I always think of like

40:36

Mother Nature, I was working at some

40:39

point in the book about this metaphor

40:41

of like Mother Nature being this mirror

40:43

and I wrote this whole thing about

40:45

Mother Nature being this incredible mirror that

40:48

like shows you who you really are

40:50

and then I was like working through

40:52

it and then I thought about it

40:54

and I was referencing it in relation

40:56

to like my Everest years while simultaneously

40:59

saying like I, it was a facade.

41:01

Like that was not who I really

41:03

was and so I came to believe

41:05

and I think I believe this more

41:08

now is that like Mother Nature is

41:10

like a fun house mirror in many

41:12

ways and it's showing you who you

41:14

want the world to see and who

41:16

you are and it is our work

41:19

in life to like make that match

41:21

and so that it is just one

41:23

image so that like who you because

41:25

You just, it's an intuitive feeling like

41:28

no matter who you are or where

41:30

you are in the world, you know

41:32

that one person that you like don't

41:34

know well, that you maybe worked with,

41:36

or that you, you know, your sister's

41:39

cousin's friend, that you met that one

41:41

time, and you're like, oh, that person's

41:43

good people. And I can't promise for

41:45

sure, but I can almost promise you

41:48

that the thing you saw was somebody

41:50

showing you their true self. Three people

41:52

off the top of my head right

41:54

now who portray what I would define

41:56

as perfect person in their realm and

41:59

their space and I don't feel emotionally

42:01

connected to them at all. Yeah. And

42:03

I mean it's taking me a whole

42:05

lifetime to get there of asking like

42:08

do you want to be a painting

42:10

on a wall or do you want

42:12

to be like a bunch of pieces

42:14

that somebody can put together and see

42:17

themselves in too. You know and we're

42:19

all probably more just a bunch of

42:21

pieces. Right. Connection alignment. Yeah. That there's

42:23

the... You know, there's like 17 metaphors.

42:25

No, well, I'll add some. In the

42:28

particular lies the universal, right? And so

42:30

that's part of what resonates so much

42:32

about your story is this, it's, can

42:34

you, are you willing to share the

42:37

title that was going to be that

42:39

it ended up not? Go ahead. Yeah,

42:41

so for the entirety of the book's

42:43

life, it was called, this is not

42:45

a book about Everest. Because any time

42:48

somebody said. if I said, oh, I'm

42:50

working on a book, they would say,

42:52

oh, what's it about? And I would

42:54

say, well, it's not a book about

42:57

Everest. And so it just became natural

42:59

to want to and to need to

43:01

define it. And Everest is a place

43:03

we go in this book. And Everest

43:05

is a place we go in this

43:08

book. And Everest is a character in

43:10

this book. But it's not a book

43:12

about Everest. And it actually was one

43:14

of my goals when I started writing

43:17

the book. Jeremy in Michigan who's like

43:19

an armchair mountaineer and like religiously reads

43:21

Explorers Web every single morning and follows

43:23

all the mountaineers and has been a

43:25

long time fan of mine and has

43:28

been waiting for me to write a

43:30

book and he pre-orders it and he

43:32

gets it and it comes to his

43:34

house I want him to like open

43:37

it and like be a little bit

43:39

disappointed. That it's not the book he

43:41

thought it was gonna be and like

43:43

you know of course I don't want

43:45

people to be disappointed but I This

43:48

is not a book about my accomplishments

43:50

on a big mountain in the world.

43:52

But that's the, but that's the universality,

43:54

right? Is we're all trying to get

43:57

approval, all seeking to belong, to connect,

43:59

and we do that through a means

44:01

that doesn't actually end up giving us

44:03

the things that we want. And so

44:06

you've done a beautiful job with that.

44:08

And let's go back to the Mount.

44:10

So there actually is a piece in

44:12

my last book where I talked, you've

44:14

taught me some really interesting and fun

44:17

lessons. The most painful and truest of

44:19

all were that when you're at the

44:21

summit you're only halfway there? Yes, indeed.

44:23

That really fucked me up. And I

44:26

was like, I'm pretty tired. I'm pretty

44:28

tired. I'm in decent shape. I mean,

44:30

to be fair, I trained for this

44:32

climb for a weekend. I did job

44:34

chase. Because like two weeks before I

44:37

wasn't going. And I was getting to

44:39

the top. I was getting near to

44:41

the top. Also you had to climb

44:43

it twice because you're shooting, running, back,

44:46

eating. It's such a waiver. And carrying

44:48

a bunch of very heavy gear. Yeah,

44:50

exactly. It's not underplay that's like, I

44:52

can tell myself that person. But I

44:54

was, and I had climbed other mountains,

44:57

nothing like the mountains that you climb,

44:59

not Everest, not Himalaya. But it really

45:01

hadn't occurred to me that when you

45:03

get to the summer, you get to

45:06

the summer, you're only halfway, you're only

45:08

halfway there. We had a couple of

45:10

other fun little exchanges about just the

45:12

meaning of the mountains and a lot

45:14

of this, you know, a lot of

45:17

the stuff that we're talking about here.

45:19

But it was a just a huge

45:21

reminder that the summit is basically not

45:23

all that it's cracked up to be.

45:26

And I'm wondering your people that you

45:28

take to the summit regularly. I watched

45:30

you essentially haul a lot of people

45:32

up on this. We're literally, we can

45:34

say we went with. Foster the people

45:37

when his pumped up kicks on was

45:39

like at 11. Yeah Justin Chatwin Yeah,

45:41

Justin and yeah Kenna, Lauren Sanchez and

45:43

I Think I think it was true

45:46

that Foster had smoked like a pack

45:48

of cigarettes the day before we started

45:50

our climb. I mean these were but

45:52

when you're giving these people this experience

45:55

and then get to the summit, what

45:57

do you see from the summit back

45:59

to base? camp. Like, is that, is it

46:01

true that, you know, are you

46:03

running downhill and everything's easy? Because

46:05

to me, the downhill is actually

46:07

the hardest part. I was social

46:09

act the day where you go

46:11

from whatever it is on, on Kilmendrow,

46:13

16 to 20, back to five

46:16

or something. Yeah, I mean, I think

46:18

that two, so two things. One is that

46:20

its mother and nature's instantaneous

46:22

way to humble the way that society has

46:24

celebrated the top is by making you have

46:26

to come back down and that that's going

46:29

to take tremendous effort and like you know

46:31

I do and I try to indoctrinate into

46:33

my clients this idea that we celebrate at

46:35

base camp because that's like where we celebrate

46:37

because we're back and we're safe instead of

46:40

doing the celebration on the summit like we

46:42

don't you know we don't have a whole

46:44

party at halftime because your team is winning

46:46

you just don't do that because you would

46:48

look like an idiot I'm so glad you're

46:50

saying this like this is exactly where I

46:52

hope this part with the conversation would go

46:54

yeah but but we you know society have

46:56

chosen this mountain metaphor of like the top

46:59

and so for me I believe that the summit

47:01

isn't the place where we're aiming to get to.

47:03

you know solely like I we need to do

47:05

the round trip I think there's so much

47:07

value in doing the round trip because and

47:09

this is again incredibly unsatisfying

47:11

but the unsexy part that

47:14

nobody cares about and is part

47:16

of nobody's story the dissent is

47:18

so essential it's my story yeah I

47:20

tell everybody every time I climb a

47:22

mountain it's like from the summit back

47:24

to like yes you climb you tend

47:26

to climb a lot lower the next

47:28

day with the exception of Everest for

47:30

example because it's too crazy but yeah

47:32

That downhill day of the summit is

47:34

the shittiest part of the whole climate.

47:36

It's the hardest part to me. Yeah,

47:39

if you exclude like the really big

47:41

tragedies on Everest, I think 56% of

47:43

the fatalities that happen on Everest happened

47:45

on the descent. So more than half

47:47

by a smidge, but like more than

47:49

half. So not only is it fatal,

47:52

you know, because we could be tired.

47:54

We already, and again, I believe that

47:56

the fatality exists in the celebration of

47:58

a rival at the top. I always

48:00

have chosen to sort of, from my

48:02

very first climb, I ever climbed, and

48:04

I talk about it in the book

48:07

of like, getting to the top of

48:09

my first real mountain and feeling both

48:11

humbled and like, it just invigorated, like

48:13

the possibilities were endless, but the thing

48:15

that I did was I looked out

48:17

and I saw it and I never

48:20

forgot that feeling as like the summit

48:22

is a point of perspective about where

48:24

you're going to go next and right

48:26

now you're going to go back down,

48:28

you know, and that is so essential.

48:30

you know a lot I didn't come

48:32

up with the idea of it's some

48:35

it is halfway it's something we talk

48:37

about regularly in mountaineering but it is

48:39

so vital to recognize that and like

48:41

how we're like societyally taught to celebrate

48:43

this midpoint where all the work is

48:45

really still in front of us and

48:48

you can't hang out there by the

48:50

way you can't stay right it's like

48:52

you can't stay you you get to

48:54

keep in you the accomplishment of having

48:56

been there and i think there's something

48:58

like really metaphorically beautiful about like you

49:00

have to go there to get that

49:03

thing but you can't stay there and

49:05

you can't keep that thing and you

49:07

can't explain to anybody else what that

49:09

thing is that you now have yeah

49:11

but you get to keep it as

49:13

long as you make it back down

49:16

and you said something else you said

49:18

like you know kill mejaro it's it's

49:20

not Everest you know whatever and it's

49:22

like Kilimanjaro does not know that Kilimanjaro

49:24

is not Everest. Like whatever mountain you

49:26

are climbing is, if it's the hardest

49:28

thing in front of you or if

49:31

it's hard today, it's not any comparatively.

49:33

And I think about that in life

49:35

all the time because I people constantly

49:37

qualify themselves to me of like, oh,

49:39

it's no this. And I'm like, I

49:41

will still tell you the very hardest

49:44

climbing. I mean, climbing ever so without

49:46

oxygen, the descent was so hard. And

49:48

I talk about it in the book,

49:50

it was so much harder than the

49:52

climb up. It was so, so hard.

49:54

But I, you know, if I just

49:57

tangibly say like what was one of

49:59

the hardest climbs in my life, my

50:01

very first time climbing Mount Rainier might

50:03

have been the physically most challenging climb

50:05

I ever did, because I was so

50:07

inefficient, so uninductrinated what I was doing.

50:09

I was just being, you know, you

50:12

know, swarmed with all these warm with

50:14

all these new experiences with all these

50:16

new experiences, and to now think back

50:18

when people. to me like, oh, it's

50:20

just rain air. And it's like, well,

50:22

but, but, but, but. And people die

50:25

there all the time. And they die

50:27

there all the time. And if it's

50:29

the hardest thing you've done, it's, that's

50:31

it. That's the hard, it's exactly the

50:33

same as my ever is without oxygen.

50:35

We've both done the hardest thing we

50:37

have done. You know, and so you

50:40

don't have to go do that harder

50:42

thing to just. I mean, that to

50:44

me is why I do this job

50:46

in so many ways. And it's not

50:48

like a voyeuristic, like I really want

50:50

to see people suffering. So I'm sure

50:53

they're some part of me. I want

50:55

to see very, very, like I want

50:57

the highest achieving person who can. Well,

50:59

I have something very wonderful about like

51:01

climbing riders. You can't buy the summit.

51:03

And like even all the money in

51:05

the world will not buy you that.

51:08

And also that's why it has value.

51:10

That's why it feels so good. of

51:12

ways, but I just think it's this

51:14

idea of how it's seeing the sameness

51:16

in us, right? It's like deconstructing the

51:18

idea that, um, and I listened to

51:21

Obama talking about this a while ago

51:23

where he was saying like, you know,

51:25

if you wait because you think that

51:27

that table is full of experts and

51:29

you're not one, I have news for

51:31

you. Like I went to that table.

51:34

Like I got into Harvard and I

51:36

looked around and I was like, what

51:38

a bunch of do for some brilliant

51:40

people too. But like. bunch of idiots

51:42

and then I got into the Senate

51:44

and then I got into the presidency.

51:46

I sat at the G7 and same

51:49

thing crossed my mind every time like

51:51

a bunch of idiots at this table

51:53

and I like thought I didn't belong

51:55

at this table because I wasn't you

51:57

know ready or whatever and the reverse

51:59

of how I see that as a

52:02

guide is like I get people that

52:04

like know they belong at a table

52:06

are willing to take the risk or

52:08

willing to put themselves out there and

52:10

then I get to see their vulnerability

52:12

in that fragile state of like them

52:14

being truly challenged that reminds us that

52:17

we're all humans in containers doing this

52:19

life for you know our conscious first

52:21

time probably for most of us and

52:23

that's the experience we're all in. And

52:25

like there's so much commonality for us

52:27

all no matter what your backstory is.

52:30

Yeah, you're experiencing that same thing. Well,

52:32

go back to the universal particular like

52:34

this is it's a story about climbing

52:36

mountains, but it's not about climbing mountains.

52:38

It's about this journey that we're all

52:40

on Exactly as you said to sort

52:42

of We're in a container trying to

52:45

understand interpret it all trying to figure

52:47

it out. But I do think that

52:49

having made choice living a living in

52:51

a life doing that, that is a

52:53

special place to be. Because not everybody,

52:55

you know, a lot of people see

52:58

people at the most vulnerable, whether you're

53:00

a therapist, for example, or a doctor,

53:02

you said, you know, the 911 stuff,

53:04

you get to see people, my dad

53:06

was a cop. Yeah, really vulnerable. Yeah,

53:08

you're showing up at people's, most people

53:11

are definitely not excited to see you

53:13

in my dad's case, for example, or...

53:15

And it creates a type of vulnerability

53:17

when you. Yeah, when you're like telling

53:19

people where they have to go to

53:21

the bathroom and when and, you know,

53:23

tied to people when you tie. I

53:26

mean, when you put people on a

53:28

rope, you're literally tied to other people,

53:30

you know, it's like, but I just

53:32

see so much humanity in that. It's

53:34

like we're just so much and what

53:36

we're all potentially capable of, like, whether

53:39

it's our individual growth inside of us

53:41

or it's like the achievements that we

53:43

inevitably will pursue and accomplish or not.

53:45

that potential is in us all. You

53:47

know, it's something that I have, maybe

53:49

we talked about this last time, like

53:51

I define myself as like pretty steadily

53:54

mediocre in most of the things that

53:56

I do, and like I always get

53:58

people be like, okay, like you climbed

54:00

Evers without oxygen, but I'm like, no,

54:02

the thing is, and I talk about

54:04

it in the book, it's like... mediocre

54:07

people climb Everest which is like an

54:09

entirety of how I've created a job

54:11

out of like guiding other mediocre people

54:13

as me and myself a mediocre person

54:15

like showing them how they can do

54:17

it and I'm not fishing for compliments

54:19

or getting you to try to tell

54:22

me like no you're I'm like I

54:24

can show you the data like I

54:26

am objectively average athletically and physiologically in

54:28

every single way and all that tells

54:30

me is that we all have this

54:32

potential right like that of course there's

54:35

limitations of physicalities and other things but

54:37

like we all have this potential to

54:39

pursue things that are to dream really

54:41

big you know like we really do

54:43

and I think that I it took

54:45

me a whole lifetime to realize that

54:48

I had this big dream I had

54:50

these big dreams and I was on

54:52

the wrong road but the dream stayed

54:54

the same you know like I was

54:56

trying I was taking the wrong path

54:58

to try to get the dream and

55:00

it didn't make the dream any worth

55:03

any less worth dreaming you know like

55:05

the dream remained the same like I

55:07

am exceedingly proud of my accomplishments and

55:09

I have some feelings of regret and

55:11

like the shame that I have worked

55:13

through about some of the roads I

55:16

took to get there and the fact

55:18

that I can say that like gives

55:20

me back the power of like being

55:22

proud of the things that I have

55:24

done. Yeah, it is a very honest

55:26

journey about, you know, on your, on

55:28

that path, the things that you would

55:31

decide to do, that you might otherwise

55:33

not, if you didn't have that, that

55:35

dream. And that's part of what, again,

55:37

this is just a, it is a

55:39

book that strips the reader away from

55:41

themselves because they're like, ah, yeah, I

55:44

have done that, I still do that,

55:46

I would have done that, I would

55:48

have done that, And you sort of

55:50

look at it unflinchingly. And how long

55:52

did it take you to do that?

55:54

To flinch at my own worst self

55:57

in the background, oh God, like I'm

55:59

still doing it today. It took a

56:01

lot, you know, like, so I wrote

56:03

this book entirely, like, you know, minus

56:05

all the edits that later happened to

56:07

it in the course of about three

56:09

months, right after... COVID lockdown, like just

56:12

because I'm a living cliche. So like

56:14

my business shut down and I had

56:16

a two-year-old and I had a moment

56:18

to like organize my thoughts and stop.

56:20

I think about it. I had to

56:22

stop accumulating new stories to be able

56:25

to put my story down. And I

56:27

made a choice to write with, I

56:29

mean I use that word as well,

56:31

like unflitching honesty and know that I

56:33

could edit myself out of it. And

56:35

I ended up not editing myself out

56:37

of it. And it was really this

56:40

incredibly healing and liberating thing to do

56:42

because the hardest thing that I have

56:44

ever done is live through it the

56:46

first time. You know, some of these

56:48

really tough things that I talk about.

56:50

was to put it on to the

56:53

paper and have it outside of me,

56:55

even with nobody else looking at it,

56:57

because then it's, yeah, it's, and it's

56:59

tangible again, you know, it's not negotiable,

57:01

I've put it on to paper, I've

57:03

released the story, that's not the truth,

57:05

it's my truth, and I chose to

57:08

do it in a way that didn't

57:10

favor me, because I made some terrible

57:12

choices along the way. And then... to

57:14

get to this place of like it's

57:16

in the world you know and now

57:18

people are reading the book and like

57:21

soon the whole world will be able

57:23

to read the book if they so

57:25

choose and I hope that they do

57:27

it doesn't feel I don't feel afraid

57:29

of it you know I really feel

57:31

somebody asked me earlier today like who

57:34

are you most afraid of feedback like

57:36

people that don't know you or people

57:38

close to you and it sort of

57:40

stopped me because I thought I'm not

57:42

afraid of I'm desperate for people to

57:44

know this true self that I am.

57:46

And in the five years since... you

57:49

know, 2020, when I wrote most of

57:51

the book and now, like, what an

57:53

incredible amount of growth I've been able

57:55

to go through to now feel good

57:57

at it. Because when I first wrote

57:59

it, like, you know, the achiever in

58:02

me wanted to, like, then just put

58:04

the book in the world and have

58:06

a book in the world and everything

58:08

is great. And like, let's all move

58:10

forward. And I needed this time. And

58:12

I didn't have a choice because publishing

58:14

is a crazy industry. I did this

58:17

because now five years later, it's like

58:19

my daughter was two when I wrote

58:21

this book primarily and now I have

58:23

a son who's two when the book

58:25

is coming into the world and I

58:27

have grown more. I've been able to

58:30

sit and reflect more on both the

58:32

beautiful and uncomfortable truth and admit who

58:34

I am and like liberate myself from

58:36

shame that I've been carrying and be

58:38

able to say like being a person

58:40

requires being imperfect and I have been

58:42

imperfect and I'm not sitting here or

58:45

anywhere saying I don't regret mistakes that

58:47

I made or behaviors and I don't

58:49

I think since you know you got

58:51

into the book you know like I

58:53

don't talk about it in a cavalier

58:55

way I'm really honest about how conflicted

58:58

I felt about and I still feel

59:00

about certain things but it feels essential

59:02

to me to be able to be

59:04

honest and you know it's changed my

59:06

life in the best way because I

59:08

lived so much of my life afraid.

59:11

that if somebody knew who I really

59:13

was they wouldn't love me. And the

59:15

truth is like the people that are

59:17

going to fall away from reading this

59:19

book and finding out who I truly

59:21

am are not the people that I

59:23

want in my life. What was the

59:26

hardest part of putting it on paper?

59:28

You talked about like that is out

59:30

there but what was the hardest part?

59:32

I think that finding out that things

59:34

that I thought were scars were scaps,

59:36

you know, where it's like I thought

59:39

that I was totally had processed and

59:41

dealt with some specific traumatic thing only

59:43

to put it on the paper and

59:45

read it back to myself and be

59:47

like, well shit, I still have some

59:49

work to do in that, you know,

59:51

and I think narrating your life and

59:54

the stories of importance of your life.

59:56

I'd something I say like I think

59:58

every single person no matter who you

1:00:00

are no matter what your writing abilities

1:00:02

are like I think you should write

1:00:04

a memoir and put it in a

1:00:07

you know file and never do anything

1:00:09

with it because the way that you

1:00:11

will get to know yourself differently through

1:00:13

that process is just like a really

1:00:15

beautiful thing. And I do believe that

1:00:17

there's a lot of self-forgiveness that lives

1:00:19

in there. The truth sounds different. The

1:00:22

truth sounds different. It does. Yeah. You

1:00:24

can hear it in your writing and

1:00:26

that's when you are saying like the

1:00:28

answer essentially to the hard part is

1:00:30

revisiting the hard parts. Yeah, and the

1:00:32

hard parts are not what I thought

1:00:35

they would be right it's like yeah,

1:00:37

so you know some of really For

1:00:39

example, you know, so I was on

1:00:41

Everest over a series of seasons where

1:00:43

some you know, huge accidents occurred. And

1:00:45

I was not just on Everest, but

1:00:48

I was like involved in the recovery

1:00:50

of bodies and the, you know, rescues

1:00:52

and really traumatic stuff that makes you

1:00:54

question the core of like what you're

1:00:56

doing, why you're there, the purpose of

1:00:58

life, and just seeing death on such

1:01:00

a large scale, losing friends, people I

1:01:03

deeply cared about. In some ways I

1:01:05

imagined that writing about writing about that

1:01:07

or writing about some really traumatic parts

1:01:09

of my childhood would be really hard.

1:01:11

And the truth was like in the

1:01:13

nuance, right, which was these little threads

1:01:16

of insidious behaviors that I was upholding

1:01:18

that were continuously creating a self-destructive environment

1:01:20

around me and like realizing as I

1:01:22

was putting it to paper how much

1:01:24

I had hobbled myself and having to

1:01:26

like just sit with that for a

1:01:28

moment and say, I can't say that

1:01:31

this was hard because I had a

1:01:33

challenging relationship with my mother. Like I

1:01:35

can say that this was hard because

1:01:37

I did these three actions that immediately

1:01:39

preceded it by my own choosing while

1:01:41

I knew better and Like that to

1:01:44

me I think was the surprising stuff

1:01:46

that felt really hard and You know

1:01:48

stuff that for a while like as

1:01:50

I was experiencing some pretty big traumas

1:01:52

in the mountains I was ignoring Taking

1:01:54

care of myself and I was just

1:01:56

portraying this I was letting the headline

1:01:59

of the like one health article be

1:02:01

my identity of like you know trailblazing

1:02:03

American mountaineer setting records at the high

1:02:05

slopes. I'm like that's who I am

1:02:07

and it's like I'm not a person

1:02:09

who has like my heart broken right

1:02:12

now and it's just internally bleeding because

1:02:14

I am not taking care of myself

1:02:16

emotionally or actually like you know and

1:02:18

and I think confronting that in the writing

1:02:20

process was it was such a gift really

1:02:22

hard but such a gift to be able

1:02:25

to like forgive that more recent stuff too

1:02:27

and be able to say like gosh

1:02:29

girl like Don't do that again, but

1:02:31

also like you were doing the best

1:02:34

you could. Yeah, you know, and also

1:02:36

you could have done better. And

1:02:38

please, in the future, do. Yeah,

1:02:40

you could have, don't be like

1:02:43

that, please. What was something

1:02:45

that was an unexpected

1:02:48

joy in the process of writing

1:02:50

this book, an unexpected

1:02:52

joy? Hmm. So I think that it

1:02:55

took all the way until... Honestly,

1:02:57

just a few weeks ago. Wow.

1:03:00

Yeah. And I was recording the

1:03:02

audio book. And that's a whole

1:03:04

other experience. Because you're... I'm sure

1:03:06

just enough about it. If you ever want

1:03:09

to like make your eyes bleed, then just

1:03:11

sit in front of your own book

1:03:13

and read it. Have someone in LA.

1:03:15

Perform it. Don't read it. Perform

1:03:17

it. Perform it. Someone in New

1:03:19

York telling. Someone in New York telling

1:03:22

up. Someone in New York telling up.

1:03:24

Up. You need to red it. Perform

1:03:26

it. Perform it. Someone in LA. Someone

1:03:28

in LA and someone in New York

1:03:30

telling. Someone in the of it all.

1:03:32

Yeah, my like engineer quit on the

1:03:34

second day of the recording and was

1:03:37

having like all these issues, but I didn't

1:03:39

know that he was having these issues

1:03:41

and I was like, was it something

1:03:43

I said? Like, and I'm making this

1:03:45

tough chapters here, but like, is he

1:03:47

coming back? And somebody else came in

1:03:49

and like, nobody else came in and

1:03:51

like, nobody didn't have these told me? Yeah.

1:03:53

You know, did I offend Bobby? Yeah, then he

1:03:56

came back at the end. I was like, I

1:03:58

was a little worried that like, like, story.

1:04:00

So, but in the process of

1:04:02

reading my own words that I

1:04:04

had written of my own life

1:04:06

that I had lived out loud

1:04:08

over, you know, three days of

1:04:10

304 pages of my life and

1:04:12

all of the good and hard

1:04:14

and really, really sad and then

1:04:16

beautiful. I had this incredible feeling

1:04:18

of like good job surviving that.

1:04:20

Like, it is, that is what's

1:04:22

exceptional that I've done. Like, not

1:04:24

getting to the summit, you know?

1:04:26

I mean, it's so true. And

1:04:28

it was like, I had to

1:04:30

get all the way to the

1:04:32

end of the book. And I'm

1:04:34

not a real cryer. And I

1:04:36

just, like, cried really hard. And

1:04:38

I cried in gratitude of, like,

1:04:40

I made it, you know, and

1:04:42

there was so much that was

1:04:44

working against me that I shouldn't

1:04:46

have survived. I should have fully

1:04:48

self-destructed. And the fact that I

1:04:50

didn't and that I'm here and

1:04:52

I get this is incredible. And

1:04:54

I am the first person to,

1:04:56

you know, really hate to have

1:04:58

somebody like sanctimoniously preach to me

1:05:00

about how they have figured it

1:05:02

all out and like if I

1:05:04

only do what they do, then

1:05:06

like I shall also figure it

1:05:08

out because I just think like,

1:05:10

yeah, we're all on the same

1:05:12

journey and like we also all

1:05:15

have to take like our own

1:05:17

little micro pathways on that journey.

1:05:19

But I get to live a

1:05:21

life that is full of flaws,

1:05:23

challenge, hardship, but ease. I get

1:05:25

ease. I am comfortable in my

1:05:27

container. And there's something just really,

1:05:29

I wake up every day and

1:05:31

I think about that, you know,

1:05:33

I think about like, hardship is

1:05:35

coming. challenge is coming. And that's

1:05:37

true for all of us, right?

1:05:39

Like no matter who you are

1:05:41

and where you are, like discomfort

1:05:43

that you don't want is coming.

1:05:45

And that idea of this like...

1:05:47

don't fall off the bike because

1:05:49

you hit a bump. Like I

1:05:51

hit a lot of bumps and

1:05:53

I really figured out how to

1:05:55

stay on the bike and like

1:05:57

the road is a lot smoother

1:05:59

now you know and I'm just

1:06:01

really grateful so I think that

1:06:03

was the surprising joyful part didn't

1:06:05

actually happen until I got to

1:06:07

this place where I'm like able

1:06:09

to look back at so much

1:06:11

and feel like incredibly grateful and

1:06:13

we just don't probably do that

1:06:15

in our lives where you just

1:06:17

look at you know all the

1:06:19

stories and I would say all

1:06:21

the stories we're telling but like

1:06:23

a huge amount of the stories

1:06:25

worth telling together jammed into time

1:06:27

yeah and think like wow that's

1:06:29

pretty amazing being a human good

1:06:31

job me good job me I

1:06:33

know I'm not like a self-celebrator

1:06:35

in a big way and like

1:06:37

I'm trying to get a self-celebrant

1:06:39

I do I feel like yeah

1:06:41

I'm really proud of being brave

1:06:43

enough to put my words to

1:06:45

paper and then put them into

1:06:47

the world and let the world

1:06:49

receive it. You did say some

1:06:51

controversial shit in there. Yes, so

1:06:53

I'm taking some really gigantic professional

1:06:55

risks. And yeah, I did. I,

1:06:57

as I said, like this book

1:06:59

is my truth. It's the world

1:07:01

as I experienced it. I name

1:07:04

names. I tell some stories that

1:07:06

some characters whose names are named

1:07:08

are not gonna... Like I don't

1:07:10

know if they're going to disagree

1:07:12

with them. I think there's a

1:07:14

possibility that they might say, I

1:07:16

didn't know that was the way

1:07:18

you experienced it. And that's the

1:07:20

most gracious response possible. But that's

1:07:22

not. That's probably not. Everyone's going

1:07:24

to happen. I just want to

1:07:26

invite page 47, sir, to just

1:07:28

say I didn't know you experienced

1:07:30

it that way. Yeah, I say

1:07:32

some controversial stuff. And like, I

1:07:34

think it's vital at this moment

1:07:36

to for all of the days

1:07:38

that I spent speaking to the

1:07:40

media as a young. Climer that

1:07:42

I had people looking up to

1:07:44

me, especially other young women, saying

1:07:46

like, how have you made it

1:07:48

in this industry? And I was

1:07:50

saying through prioritizing competence, working as

1:07:52

hard as I could, being better

1:07:54

than everybody. Also by like dating

1:07:56

the right people, like I didn't

1:07:58

mention that at that time, and

1:08:00

that was really shameful. Yeah. And

1:08:02

now. I feel like it's my

1:08:04

job to mention it all. You

1:08:06

know, it really is. It's my

1:08:08

job to say like, it's not

1:08:10

always just a neat, tidy bow

1:08:12

of like work as hard as

1:08:14

you can and you can get

1:08:16

there too. Like if you have

1:08:18

a good work product, it's not

1:08:20

going to do all the work

1:08:22

on itself. No, it's really complicated

1:08:24

and I'm not suggesting that like

1:08:26

people should, you know, engage in

1:08:28

low character behavior to get what

1:08:30

they want because like ultimately a

1:08:32

lot of bad things will happen

1:08:34

prior to you happen prior to

1:08:36

you, you know I had to

1:08:38

do the healing before I could

1:08:40

get to the summit like I

1:08:42

could not have gotten to the

1:08:44

summit without oxygen which is this

1:08:46

thing I deeply wanted without having

1:08:48

done the healing first and I

1:08:50

was a baby in the healing

1:08:52

but I just cracking that egg

1:08:55

open was the beginning of it

1:08:57

you know and so yeah and

1:08:59

now I'm sure like the internet

1:09:01

is going to have thoughts I

1:09:03

talk about like we talk about

1:09:05

some really heavy topics in this

1:09:07

book so this book addresses you

1:09:09

know abuse, it addresses grooming and

1:09:11

child sexual abuse, it involves abuse

1:09:13

of power, it involves suicide, you

1:09:15

know, it involves some really, really

1:09:17

controversial and hard to put yourself

1:09:19

out there topics. And I guess

1:09:21

I'd just rather have people hate

1:09:23

me for telling my truth, you

1:09:25

know, than love me for the

1:09:27

lie that was how I presented

1:09:29

myself for so many years. Well,

1:09:31

I think you're amazing. Thank you.

1:09:33

And I think this book does

1:09:35

such a good job for the

1:09:37

human spirit. It is so heartwarming

1:09:39

and I feel like it's connecting

1:09:41

and the part that I want

1:09:43

to, I would say wrap up

1:09:45

with, but I expect this to

1:09:47

not be the shortest part of

1:09:49

our interview, but I do have

1:09:51

as an important part. contextualize everything

1:09:53

that we've been talking about for

1:09:55

the past hour or so into

1:09:57

a couple pieces of advice and

1:09:59

you are always reluctant to to

1:10:01

give advice, you're always interested in

1:10:03

teaching, though. So somewhere in there

1:10:05

is safe ground for us to

1:10:07

talk about this stuff. Because you're

1:10:09

a teacher, as a guide, you're

1:10:11

a teacher, you're teaching your clients

1:10:13

how to, you know, walk up

1:10:15

hill slowly and, you know, secure

1:10:17

themselves to a rope. And you're

1:10:19

teaching people, you're a teacher, you're

1:10:21

a great teacher. That comes out

1:10:23

also, I love that part. And

1:10:25

when you're first applying to be

1:10:27

a guide to be a guide

1:10:29

and you get selected number one.

1:10:31

Cautiously, but let's try it into

1:10:33

the advice column here. What do

1:10:35

you want advice on? I want

1:10:37

you to tell like right now

1:10:39

there's someone who is wants to

1:10:41

achieve a thing. They largely tune

1:10:43

into the show and others or

1:10:46

follow me or you or us

1:10:48

because of things that we've done.

1:10:50

How do you tell them to

1:10:52

it's that it's okay to achieve

1:10:54

and to want things? And Like,

1:10:56

what did you learn along the

1:10:58

way that is a nugget that

1:11:00

they wouldn't hear from someone else?

1:11:02

Yeah, so I think that through

1:11:04

this whole process both of like

1:11:06

achieving the things I wanted to

1:11:08

achieve and then beginning the process

1:11:10

of healing to understand what the

1:11:12

achievement should live in my life

1:11:14

and the importance of it for

1:11:16

me, I think that where the

1:11:18

fear is, go toward it. And

1:11:20

I think that the answers. are

1:11:22

often near the fear and I

1:11:24

say this with sensitivity knowing that

1:11:26

like it's hard it's hard it's

1:11:28

very and I'm not saying ignore

1:11:30

your body's warning signs that there's

1:11:32

danger because you know evolutionarily there's

1:11:34

probably a reason why you're feeling

1:11:36

those things but our mind really

1:11:38

wants to protect our heart from

1:11:40

suffering yeah and a lot and

1:11:42

you know this and you talk

1:11:44

about it it's like so much

1:11:46

of the magic that little sliver

1:11:48

of magic exists right at the

1:11:50

edge of the mind letting the

1:11:52

heart be exposed to the possibility

1:11:54

of suffering. So the thing that

1:11:56

is the fear, like instead of

1:11:58

turning away from it, turn toward

1:12:00

it, and for me the process

1:12:02

of this, was like I feared

1:12:04

people knowing who I really was.

1:12:06

And so I turned all the

1:12:08

way toward that. And like a

1:12:10

gangster, like all the way, like

1:12:12

yeah, totally naked in front of

1:12:14

people. I was like, tell me

1:12:16

what you think, please. I have

1:12:18

opinions because I know you will.

1:12:20

But you throw yourself under the

1:12:22

bus. No, I just tell the

1:12:24

truth. And I admit to the

1:12:26

culpability of my own actions in

1:12:28

the context of the ad. It

1:12:30

just sounds, it just feels so

1:12:32

fucking brave. Yeah, and it's scary.

1:12:35

Yeah, because I'm reading this stuff,

1:12:37

knowing you saying, wow. I can't

1:12:39

wait to talk to you about

1:12:41

this. Yeah, you're also like hiding

1:12:43

behind your jacket. You're like, oh,

1:12:45

why did she do that? You

1:12:47

know, I love it. Yeah, and

1:12:49

so I think that that is

1:12:51

where the, you know, for the

1:12:53

actual step of like an actionable

1:12:55

item is we're all, we all

1:12:57

have a fear and big and

1:12:59

small and whatever it is, but

1:13:01

like, you got to distill what

1:13:03

the real fear is, you know,

1:13:05

and I always go on the

1:13:07

journey of curiosity, I don't know.

1:13:09

Something that I'm afraid of, I

1:13:11

am afraid of frisbees weirdly. And

1:13:13

like, it was a very... It

1:13:15

was the first person who's ever

1:13:17

said that by me. You know,

1:13:19

for I lived a lot of

1:13:21

my life in like casual recreational

1:13:23

environments where people like seem to

1:13:25

always have a frisbee and like

1:13:27

people just shuck it. I'm like,

1:13:29

I do not need a hard

1:13:31

disk flying at a very unreasonably

1:13:33

fast speed toward me and me

1:13:35

not like... necessarily I mean honestly

1:13:37

sit on the summit of Everest

1:13:39

and terrified yeah and so then

1:13:41

I leave I lean into this

1:13:43

and I'm like so what am

1:13:45

I afraid of right so I'm

1:13:47

afraid of being embarrassed by not

1:13:49

being able to do this thing

1:13:51

that I'm witnessing everybody enjoy doing

1:13:53

and I don't think I can

1:13:55

catch it I think it's gonna

1:13:57

me and catch me off garden,

1:13:59

it's going to embarrass me. And

1:14:01

so then I say, okay, and

1:14:03

so if I get embarrassed, then

1:14:05

what? And it's like, well, then

1:14:07

people are going to think less

1:14:09

of me. They're going to think

1:14:11

I'm incompetent because I can't catch

1:14:13

a frisbee. And they're going to

1:14:15

judge me as worthless. And then

1:14:17

what? And it's like, and then...

1:14:19

I'm going to be faced with

1:14:21

this actionable step of doing something

1:14:23

about it or not, you know?

1:14:26

And then I'm going to say

1:14:28

that sentence, you are worthless because

1:14:30

you cannot catch a frisbee in

1:14:32

front of people. And then I'm

1:14:34

going to laugh at how absolutely

1:14:36

and utterly ridiculous that is and

1:14:38

I'm going to reimagine the whole

1:14:40

scenario and I'm doing this all

1:14:42

in like, you know, my brain

1:14:44

works way too fast sometimes and

1:14:46

I'm going to do it all

1:14:48

again and I'm going to say

1:14:50

I'm not going to catch it

1:14:52

and I'm going to like laugh

1:14:54

and I'm going to say you

1:14:56

guys I have to tell you

1:14:58

I'm totally afraid of frisbees and

1:15:00

somebody we're going to be more

1:15:02

connected because I just told them

1:15:04

something that's like bizarre and bizarre

1:15:06

and very vulnerable and low stakes,

1:15:08

right? Like, they now know I'm

1:15:10

afraid of frisbees. What do you

1:15:12

think they're going to throw for

1:15:14

frisbee at me just to be

1:15:16

funny? No, they're going to respect

1:15:18

that I shared a fear. And

1:15:20

so I take it both ways,

1:15:22

right? Like I say, like, how

1:15:24

could this go? And then I

1:15:26

take the step toward the fear,

1:15:28

you know, and it's like... I

1:15:30

try not to hang out and

1:15:32

like open park spaces still. So

1:15:34

I'm still growing in that. But,

1:15:36

and like, please, if you ever

1:15:38

come to an event of mine,

1:15:40

do not like throw a frisbee

1:15:42

onto the stage because I die,

1:15:44

I die. But it's a, you

1:15:46

know, like, there's something to be

1:15:48

gained from looking at your fear.

1:15:50

And like, again, my fear is

1:15:52

not a frisbee. My fears of

1:15:54

being embarrassed. I don't want to

1:15:56

seem incompetent. I'm working on like,

1:15:58

like, like, No. My right to

1:16:00

exist in the world does

1:16:03

not have anything to do with

1:16:05

how much competence I

1:16:07

embody. Yeah, yeah. And nor is it

1:16:09

for you for anybody else.

1:16:11

Yeah. I have a utility

1:16:14

love language. Yes. I want to

1:16:16

be useful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

1:16:18

One of those high achiever problems.

1:16:21

For sure. Yeah. Do you feel

1:16:23

like, do you feel like the

1:16:25

fear, like move toward your

1:16:27

fear as a, that's the.

1:16:29

cornerstone of the advice, let's

1:16:31

say that. How do you feel about

1:16:34

the pursuit thing? Like that, do

1:16:36

you feel, you've said before

1:16:38

in this conversation, you said

1:16:40

it in the book, that there is

1:16:42

something worthy, like there's, there

1:16:45

is something worthy in pursuit.

1:16:47

So help me in, I

1:16:49

mean, I think that there's so

1:16:51

much to be gained from being

1:16:54

audacious and trying. big hard things

1:16:56

that you're unsure if you're capable

1:16:58

of doing. And even if they're

1:17:01

really silly things like walking uphill

1:17:03

to a spot and then turning

1:17:05

around, like there's value in

1:17:07

that. And for me, I can't explain

1:17:10

to you why climbing mountains makes

1:17:12

me feel really happy, but the

1:17:14

happiness is something I can share with

1:17:16

you. And so your happiness, you

1:17:18

know, is likely not going to

1:17:20

be like being a creator and

1:17:22

creating art for people to consume.

1:17:24

It's not so tangible that you

1:17:26

can describe like how it's not the

1:17:28

accolades. It's not the validation of

1:17:31

like you're so great. It's this

1:17:33

like fundamental actual creation of it

1:17:35

that gives you this sense of

1:17:37

like happiness. And I do believe that you

1:17:39

know endeavors that satiate that little

1:17:41

child in you and make you feel

1:17:43

good are really important to allow ourselves

1:17:46

to do because I don't know what's

1:17:48

going to save the world, but I'm

1:17:50

pretty sure that like happy people are

1:17:52

a really important component of it. And

1:17:55

we're more likely to be better in

1:17:57

our spaces, our communities, our families,

1:17:59

if we are. happiness and it's something that's

1:18:01

you know I hate to say it

1:18:03

because it feels again so like sanctimony

1:18:06

so like pursue happiness and then you'll

1:18:08

be but it's like asking yourself like

1:18:10

what does feel good to me yeah

1:18:12

and like barring that it's not like

1:18:15

you know illegal drugs or crime or

1:18:17

something like I've just like I heard

1:18:19

it's good as well you know it's

1:18:21

okay to pursue those things even and

1:18:24

I've just had this conversation with somebody

1:18:26

saying how do you sort of like

1:18:28

go back and forth with the idea

1:18:30

of selfish pursuits. And I say like

1:18:33

I give myself permission to be selfish

1:18:35

because selfish me allows the rest of

1:18:37

me to give. And people who are

1:18:39

willing to be selfish are also people

1:18:42

who are capable of giving a lot

1:18:44

to others. And it's you know we

1:18:46

assign like you're a selfish person. It's

1:18:49

like those often aren't selfish people. Those

1:18:51

are self-destructive people. Yeah. That was an

1:18:53

intense part of the book where someone

1:18:55

that you had been with. was an

1:18:58

inch from your face telling you that

1:19:00

you were selfish. Yeah. Yeah. Very, I

1:19:02

remember that piece of the book. Oh,

1:19:04

so hard. Yeah, no, just reminding myself

1:19:07

of another era that I wish I

1:19:09

could. Yeah. But you know, I think

1:19:11

about allowing other people's narratives, because again,

1:19:13

like most of the intensity is a

1:19:16

mirror. And so like, I can hold

1:19:18

that up, right? And it's like. That's

1:19:20

not for me. That's just like you're

1:19:22

throwing at me the thing you most

1:19:25

want out of yourself. And then I'm

1:19:27

doing that too in my life and

1:19:29

so on. And so trying to like

1:19:31

take that time and that's that fearless

1:19:34

self reflection like I really do think

1:19:36

that there's real value in just like

1:19:38

be in your car, roll up the

1:19:40

windows, make sure no one can hear

1:19:43

you and say the thing you're most

1:19:45

scared for anybody to know about you.

1:19:47

Just say it, put it in the

1:19:49

car in the air, don't even write

1:19:52

even write it down. And then if

1:19:54

you need to like get out of

1:19:56

the car for a minute because you

1:19:58

can't be in the car with it,

1:20:01

you're like, but just acknowledging that it

1:20:03

exists is healing. You know? all have

1:20:05

something. We all have some real healing

1:20:07

to do. Yeah. That, do you feel

1:20:10

like people should do crazy hard things?

1:20:12

Because right now, I mean, what we're

1:20:14

talking about is happiness and selfishness. I

1:20:17

am all about that. There's a reason

1:20:19

that's put your own oxygen mask on

1:20:21

before assisting other passengers. Because I believe

1:20:23

deeply in that. And there is a,

1:20:26

I want to stay, I want to

1:20:28

carve out special space for achievement because

1:20:30

I think in doing hard things that

1:20:32

you are called to do. is one

1:20:35

of life's great joys. And you learn

1:20:37

so much about yourself and the world

1:20:39

from doing those things. How I think

1:20:41

about it, I guess, to quantify it

1:20:44

into a space that could live with

1:20:46

anybody. Because what is hard, so subjective.

1:20:48

You know, a long time ago somebody

1:20:50

said the definition of adventure is the

1:20:53

outcome is unknown. And I really loved

1:20:55

that sentiment. And I think it's that.

1:20:57

I don't think it has to be

1:20:59

what hard is, but I think pursuing

1:21:02

things where the outcome is unknown, there's

1:21:04

tremendous value in there. Because if we're

1:21:06

always staying within the known, there's no

1:21:08

growth, right? And so the chance to

1:21:11

grow, and I can't promise you will,

1:21:13

but the chance to grow comes with

1:21:15

audacity. And audacity comes from you not

1:21:17

knowing what's going to happen. And I

1:21:20

think that that is worth everybody pursuing

1:21:22

in their own way. And you can

1:21:24

do it in lots of ways. I

1:21:26

started like running. you know, really long-distance

1:21:29

races this last couple years, like hundreds

1:21:31

of miles. And it's- I might go

1:21:33

to Switzerland and run for five days

1:21:35

straight. Yeah, with five hours asleep. But

1:21:38

the cool thing for me that happened

1:21:40

was that I used to do that

1:21:42

kind of physical challenge with this internal

1:21:45

sense of like, you deserve to- suffer.

1:21:47

And so let's go find a thing

1:21:49

that will really make you suffer. And

1:21:51

now I'm doing it with this sense

1:21:54

of just joyful curiosity of like, is

1:21:56

this even possible? Like I don't love

1:21:58

running. So like, could I run for

1:22:00

five days straight with five hours of

1:22:03

sleep? And like, then finding out what

1:22:05

is and isn't possible is phenomenally rewarding.

1:22:07

Thank you so much friend for coming

1:22:09

here and sharing. It is a beautiful

1:22:12

stunning book and So much so I

1:22:14

was willing to read the PDF because

1:22:16

I didn't have an actual book on

1:22:18

his phone of all things like can

1:22:21

you imagine 104 pages of scrolling that

1:22:23

is so and I could not stop

1:22:25

and there's not an accident anything else

1:22:27

you want to say to our people

1:22:30

who are listening right now you have

1:22:32

their attention no thank you for listening

1:22:34

to this I know we were talking

1:22:36

in some a lot of generalities and

1:22:39

alluding to a lot of stuff that's

1:22:41

inside of the book but you know

1:22:43

I think that this journey that I

1:22:45

have lived is a journey worth sharing

1:22:48

and I'm really excited to share it

1:22:50

with people it's terrifying but I think

1:22:52

it's really important and you know I

1:22:54

hope that if you get this book

1:22:57

and you read this book you get

1:22:59

to the end of the book and

1:23:01

the thing that you walk away knowing

1:23:03

is that like your story has value

1:23:06

too because I believe that everyone has

1:23:08

a pretty similar story somewhere in there.

1:23:10

It is a beautiful intersection of all

1:23:13

those different things and as an outdoor

1:23:15

person I love the climbing parts of

1:23:17

it and as a human or a

1:23:19

being I love the human being parts

1:23:22

of it and as I just it's

1:23:24

really it's a very special read thank

1:23:26

you so much and I could as

1:23:28

I was reading and I was like

1:23:31

I can't wait to sit down and

1:23:33

talk about it I know I know

1:23:35

yeah well we got to do it

1:23:37

again we did thank you so much

1:23:40

for being on the show every out

1:23:42

there in the world the book is

1:23:44

enough climbing toward a true self on

1:23:46

Mount Everest to pick your copy up

1:23:49

now we're good at buying stuff go

1:23:51

to Fort Melissa she is freaking she

1:23:53

is freaking awesome Thank All

1:23:56

right, hey before you go, thanks so much for listening and if

1:23:58

you got value this show, chances are

1:24:00

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1:24:03

the Universal. Please Please share this link

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1:24:13

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1:24:15

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1:24:17

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1:24:20

you give to the show that

1:24:22

the questions that you ask our

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1:24:28

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1:24:32

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And by elevating one another by

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1:24:47

a quick thank you. I appreciate

1:24:50

all the effort you put into

1:24:52

sharing the show. for right, that's a

1:24:54

wrap. Let's put today's episode into

1:24:56

practice and get back to growing

1:24:58

together. together.