0:00

Was there 18 years? Breadwinner for my

0:02

family. Fancy, executive salary. Very, very comfortable.

0:04

Never thought I would leave. But I

0:06

was terrified to leave Google. Terrified. And

0:09

so I would tell myself all sorts

0:11

of tales, right? Tales like, we're going

0:13

to have to downsize. We're going to

0:16

starve. I will never be able to

0:18

get hired again if the book flops

0:20

because I'm 45. And, you know, no

0:23

one's going to hire a 45-year-old. Every

0:25

single thing I just said. tales. So

0:27

what are the truths of this situation?

0:30

I would likely make less money.

0:32

I was leaving to write a

0:34

book. We had a lot in

0:36

savings. My relationship to money is

0:38

one thing, but you know, there's

0:40

other values in life, like time

0:42

with my family being high net

0:44

freedom. So once I was able

0:46

to separate the truths, which are

0:48

verifiable facts, and when you can separate

0:50

the truths from your tales, that

0:53

is what helps you push past the

0:55

fear. by My Latest Book Never Play It's

0:57

Safe. Right now, if you do not have

0:59

a copy of my latest book,

1:01

I want you to listen to

1:03

what Gary Vainerchak said about my

1:05

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1:08

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1:10

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1:14

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1:16

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1:18

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1:21

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1:23

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1:25

shows us how to step out

1:27

of our comfort zones and become

1:29

who we weren't meant to be.

1:31

Here's a cool fact. All of the best

1:33

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1:36

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1:38

Safe is a blueprint. That's how I

1:40

designed it. It's a blueprint to

1:42

get you there reliably over and

1:44

over again. It's not an accident

1:46

that this was a national bestseller

1:49

on, I think, four best-selling book

1:51

lists. That's because it is a roadmap.

1:53

It's a blueprint, right? It's going to

1:55

reshape how you think about

1:57

attention, time, intuition, constraints, those

1:59

things. feel like hold you back?

2:01

If you're not playing enough, if you're

2:03

working too much, you're working in the

2:05

wrong way, if failure seems too constant

2:07

and you can't see what the benefits

2:09

are, or if you don't have the

2:12

practices and the habits to help you

2:14

achieve the extraordinary results that you seek,

2:16

this is the book that I put

2:18

three years of my life in its

2:20

goal is to help you be more

2:22

creative, fulfilled, and successful in everything that

2:24

you do. And if this hasn't convinced

2:26

you or the blurbs from Gary Vainerchak

2:28

and Seth Godin and Sophia and Damon

2:30

John from Shark Tank, then I get

2:32

it. There's a bunch of other reviews

2:34

at Amazon or wherever you buy books.

2:36

And I'd love it if you pick

2:39

up a copy if never play it

2:41

safe, a practical guide to freedom, creativity,

2:43

and a life you love. Now, let's

2:45

get into the show. Hello

2:49

everybody, what's up, it's Chase. I

2:51

am very happy to welcome you

2:53

another episode of the show, you

2:55

know, the show where I sit

2:58

down with awesome humans and I

3:00

unpack their brain with the goal

3:02

of helping you live your dreams.

3:04

And today's guest is Jenny Wood.

3:06

Jenny comes to us after 18

3:08

years at Google. She grew from

3:10

an entry-level employee to executive and

3:12

has led massive operations to billions

3:14

of dollars in revenue. And a

3:16

few years ago, she started a

3:18

project inside of Google called Own

3:20

Your Career, which ended up growing

3:23

to be a very popular career

3:25

development program inside of Google. And

3:27

it is this program that spawned

3:29

in part one of the things

3:31

we're talking about in today's show,

3:33

an amazing book called Wild Courage.

3:35

And you know, I'm a huge

3:37

believer in owning our creativity in

3:39

pursuit of the dream job, the

3:41

dream career. that that doesn't just

3:43

happen on an accident. And Janie's

3:45

book, Wild Courage, the subhead here

3:48

is Go After What You Want

3:50

and Get It, is a really

3:52

lovely dovetail to my philosophy overall.

3:54

And it actually dovetails really interestingly

3:56

with my latest book called Never.

3:58

played safe. It was really fun.

4:00

It was the first time I

4:02

had met Jenny just this year.

4:04

She and I are part of

4:06

a call it a secret club,

4:08

an author's club that gets together.

4:10

It was really, really fun to

4:13

read an early draft of her

4:15

book. Grateful to have her on

4:17

the show, if you're interested in

4:19

how to be more courageous, if

4:21

you're interested in how to be

4:23

weird, that weird version of yourself

4:25

that you're not sure if you

4:27

should share with others, how to

4:29

do more of that, how to

4:31

be shameless in promoting yourself and

4:33

your work, realizing that you're just

4:35

connecting the world with the work

4:38

that they need, and how to

4:40

air on the side of action.

4:42

overthinking, tells us the next set

4:44

of steps that we need to

4:46

do way more than thinking. Yours

4:48

truly, and Jenny Wood, talking about

4:50

wild courage, enjoy today's show. Jenny,

4:52

thank you so much for joining

4:54

us. Welcome to the show. It's

4:56

so great to be here, Chase.

4:58

Are we gonna get courageous today?

5:00

We're gonna get wild be courageous.

5:02

Wildly courageous. Well, I have the

5:05

distinct opportunity to have you on

5:07

the show today and get to

5:09

pick your brain around a topic

5:11

that my audience, those who listen

5:13

and watch and have tuned into

5:15

the show for a long time,

5:17

know that I'm passionate about and

5:19

that is courage. I often cite

5:21

that you don't need to be

5:23

100% courage to do something. It's

5:25

sort of like 1% more courage,

5:27

51% courage to 49% fear. We're

5:30

going to cover a lot of

5:32

that. today. You have a new

5:34

book. We also need to talk

5:36

about that, not accidentally. It's called

5:38

Wild Courage, the joke that you

5:40

just, the inside joke, if you

5:42

didn't know the title, in our

5:44

little opening mantra there. But for

5:46

the handful of folks who might

5:48

be new to you, your work,

5:50

the book, some of the things

5:52

we're going to talk about today,

5:55

how do you, you know, what's

5:57

your normal sort of introduction to

5:59

you in your work and the

6:01

things that you care about? Yeah,

6:03

well I think my normal introduction

6:05

is, hi, I'm Jenny, tell me

6:07

about yourself, but for the purposes

6:09

of today, a little bit more

6:11

background. I did research at Harvard

6:13

Business School, I then went on

6:15

to have basically grew up my

6:17

entire career at Google, growing from

6:20

entry level to executive. I ran

6:22

an operations team that sat between

6:24

sales and engineering, and just for

6:26

fun as a passion project, I

6:28

founded a program called Own Your

6:30

Career, which grew to be one

6:32

of the largest career programs in

6:34

Google's history. So that was pretty

6:36

fun. And then I was like,

6:38

wait a second. I like my

6:40

operations role, but I really love.

6:42

coaching people to be better than

6:45

they think they can be. And

6:47

so I went out and wrote

6:49

a book. And then in my

6:51

personal life, I've got two kids.

6:53

I live in Boulder, Colorado. Kids

6:55

are seven and nine. Keep me

6:57

on my toes. Try to hike

6:59

every day and take a little

7:01

nature shower. Gosh, that sounds like

7:03

to checks of most of the

7:05

boxes that I've got on my

7:07

list of things to do. That's

7:10

great. Boulder, Colorado, man. I love

7:12

that place, man. Super special. Yeah.

7:14

Courage is a big deal for,

7:16

as I sort of try and

7:18

connect the dots, looking back on

7:20

my life, the time as to

7:22

where I felt that I wasn't

7:24

living up to my potential, potential,

7:26

felt, you know, shame or guilt

7:28

or frustration, usually had to do

7:30

with fear being more dominant than

7:32

my courage or my ability to

7:35

play through it. So let's start

7:37

there. Why are you writing about

7:39

courage? What role has it played

7:41

in your life such that you

7:43

have become an expert? Yeah. Well,

7:45

it all started on a dirty

7:47

crowded New York City subway in

7:49

2011. I'm writing the subway home.

7:51

I see this really attractive guy

7:53

standing about 20 feet away from

7:55

me or so. gorgeous blue eyes,

7:57

thick brown wavy hair, and I'm

8:00

really taken by him. And even

8:02

though I want to go talk

8:04

to him, something holds me back.

8:06

What if he's a convicted felon?

8:08

What if he's married? What if

8:10

100 people stare at me on

8:12

this packed train? Well, and I'm

8:14

already like a confident Google employee

8:16

on the outside, but I'm scared

8:18

and timid on the inside. And

8:20

I later came to realize that

8:22

those three questions I had about

8:25

him convicted felon, you know married.

8:27

or even just like the fear

8:29

that people might stare at me,

8:31

were underpinned by fears that had

8:33

helped me back so often in

8:35

life and that I saw hold

8:37

so many talented successful people back

8:39

at Google. And those three fears

8:41

were fear of judgment, fear of

8:43

failure, and fear of uncertainty, fear

8:45

of uncertainty, and fear of uncertainty.

8:47

So I sit there, I do

8:49

nothing, the train passes stop after

8:52

stop after stop and life, frankly,

8:54

passes me by. But I make

8:56

a deal with the universe, I

8:58

say, if he gets off at

9:00

my stop, I'll try to strike

9:02

up a conversation with him, and

9:04

if not, then that's the universe

9:06

telling me it wasn't meant to

9:08

be. So we gets off at

9:10

59th Street, and I say, Just

9:12

as the doors are about to

9:14

close, because that is not my

9:17

stop, I say, screw the universe,

9:19

because this wave of wild courage,

9:21

like, washes over me, and it

9:23

practically pushes me off the subway

9:25

train. So I chase to catch

9:27

up with him, I tap him

9:29

on the shoulder, I say, excuse

9:31

me, I'm sorry to bother you,

9:33

you're wearing gloves, so I can't

9:35

tell if you're wearing a wedding

9:37

ring, but in the event that

9:39

you're not married, you're on my

9:42

subway, you're on my subway, And

9:44

then I wait for what feels

9:46

like forever as I think this

9:48

was a terrible idea. But then

9:50

he takes my business card, he

9:52

calls the next day, we go

9:54

on a date a week later,

9:56

and we've now been married happily

9:58

for 11 years with two kids.

10:00

That is the story that we

10:02

all want. And yet, we all

10:04

know that it doesn't always go

10:07

that way. Yeah, that is true.

10:09

And I often get asked two

10:11

things. Well, like, how do you

10:13

recover from the failure when it

10:15

doesn't work out? But also. What

10:17

if I'm not a subway chaser,

10:19

Jenny? Like that sounds like a

10:21

ridiculously unrelatable story. Like what about

10:23

me? How can I have what

10:25

I, then I like guide people.

10:27

You just need like a little

10:29

mini courage deposit on any given

10:32

day, right? Maybe it's raising your

10:34

hand to say something in the

10:36

big town hall where your VP

10:38

is presenting and you want to

10:40

be visible and stand out or

10:42

maybe as an entrepreneur, you know,

10:44

it's about sending, you know, X

10:46

number of emails out to picture

10:48

services or to ask a client

10:50

for an upsell or to say,

10:52

hey, we've got this great client

10:54

testimonial, I wanted to share it

10:57

with you, right? Or maybe it

10:59

is, you know, Do you need

11:01

to get a lot of work

11:03

done on a flight home with

11:05

your family like I did the

11:07

other day and your seats are

11:09

three together and one separate and

11:11

you ask your husband to sit

11:13

with the two kids the entire

11:15

flight while you work on this

11:17

project for this client? Maybe it's

11:19

the courage to ask for something

11:22

from your spouse or your partner.

11:24

So yes, not everyone is a

11:26

subway chaser, but no matter where

11:28

you sit, there is something right

11:30

now that you want, right? Some

11:32

goal, some project, you know, something

11:34

for your business for your business.

11:36

And wild courage is what closes

11:38

the gap between what you want

11:40

and what you get. It's pushing

11:42

past that fear to achieve your

11:44

greatest ambitions. You have identified a

11:47

handful of traits, as you call

11:49

them, and... I'm in love with

11:51

this list, first of all, because

11:53

there it's a little bit subversive,

11:55

right? There's a little, there's some,

11:57

yeah, a little spiciness in there,

11:59

which I really appreciate. And it's

12:01

also, it's a very real list.

12:03

Like, you know, as I'm, first

12:05

of all, I have had the

12:07

opportunity now to read the book

12:09

twice, one with the PDF that

12:12

I read originally, and thankfully you

12:14

and your team sent me an

12:16

advanced copy of, which it's beautiful

12:18

and gorgeous. Congratulations, but genuinely appreciate

12:20

the traits and there are things

12:22

that a lot of people don't

12:24

want to talk about. You've got

12:26

ones, for example, like nosy and

12:28

manipulative and weird. So give us

12:30

the background on how you ended

12:32

up with this selection of traits

12:34

that is certainly not random and

12:36

yet they are very, they seem,

12:39

seemingly far afield and certainly spicy.

12:41

Yeah, for sure. It's interesting because

12:43

I'm so glad that you appreciate

12:45

the spice. Someone said this morning,

12:47

they gave me some constructive feedback

12:49

initially, but ultimately was a compliment.

12:51

They said when I first started

12:53

reading the book, you know, I

12:55

kind of thought, oh, she's just

12:57

being edgy for the sake of

12:59

being edgy. And then he said,

13:01

but Jenny, like, when I got

13:04

into it, he's like, I loved

13:06

it. you're saying the quiet part

13:08

out loud. And that's ultimately what

13:10

this is, because these are things,

13:12

so the nine traits are weird,

13:14

selfish, shameless. obsessed, nosy, manipulative, manipulative,

13:16

brutal, reckless, and bossy. And it's

13:18

basically, like, breaking the unspoken rules,

13:20

or, you know, again, pushing past

13:22

that fear of uncertainty, failure, judgment

13:24

of others, to achieve things that

13:26

you want to achieve in life,

13:29

but we don't go for it

13:31

because we're scared that someone will

13:33

think of us as manipulative, right?

13:35

But manipulative to me is... the

13:37

courage to build lasting relationships and

13:39

to build influence through empathy. It's

13:41

the idea basically that whether you're

13:43

selling a product or a program

13:45

or frankly yourself, your ability to

13:47

win friends and allies and supporters

13:49

is all about mutual benefits. So

13:51

figure out what people want and

13:54

go get it for them. And

13:56

you know, it's but our fear

13:58

of being seen as opportunistic or

14:00

strategic. or like we're playing chess,

14:02

right? Or we're giving something to

14:04

somebody only because we want something

14:06

in return. You know, that's what

14:08

holds people back from taking those

14:10

generous actions that actually expand the

14:12

pie in business and life in

14:14

relationships versus reslyse the pie. Well,

14:16

I'll tell you, you had me

14:19

at the first trait, which is

14:21

weird. Yeah, because for so many

14:23

people in our audience, this is.

14:25

It's difficult to reconcile. There's a

14:27

phrase that I love to channel

14:29

and it was crafted by a

14:31

friend of my name, James Victoria,

14:33

is an amazing artist and a

14:36

sweet kind, smart human. It says,

14:38

what made you weird as a

14:40

kid will make you great today.

14:42

And it is that individuality, the

14:44

things that make us quirky and

14:46

You know, to me, that's our,

14:48

that's our fingerprint. That's, that's who

14:51

we are. And so many times,

14:53

because of cultures, various inputs and

14:55

pressures, we're taught mistakenly to suppress

14:57

that thing, that thing that differentiates

14:59

us from all the other people

15:02

on the planet. And so, you

15:04

know, I felt right at home

15:06

knowing that it was, I had

15:08

your permission to be weird. So,

15:10

help us. Yeah, well, I love that

15:13

you just used the word permission chase

15:15

because wild courage is about giving yourself

15:17

permission and not waiting for someone to

15:19

give you permission to ask for X,

15:21

Y, Z thing or to take X,

15:23

Y, Z action or to go for

15:25

X, Y, Z goal. And weird is

15:27

the courage to stand out, right? Because

15:29

within your so-called weirdness, lie your greatest

15:31

strengths. So I say, hone every ounce

15:33

of weird you've got. And like I

15:35

was a super weird kid. You know,

15:37

you know, there was one moment where...

15:39

I was at a yoga shop

15:42

and I stood on a table

15:44

which sounds a little bit weird

15:46

in itself in and of itself

15:48

and I sang the national anthem

15:50

or no my country tis of

15:52

me and you know I'm in

15:54

that that that very last line

15:57

to the icing like I would

15:59

just like belted from the top

16:01

of my lungs every line of that

16:03

of that song. And my high school

16:05

friends or middle school friends, you know,

16:08

they were like, Jenny, you are such

16:10

a nut. But I think I intentionally

16:12

took these actions to like build a

16:15

thicker skin of trying to not care

16:17

what people thought about me. Now all

16:19

this said. I still get tons of

16:22

imposter syndrome. I still get really insecure

16:24

when I make a mistake. I still

16:26

get, you know, tingly arms when I

16:29

get an email back. That's a rejection.

16:31

I got one earlier this week that

16:33

like was cringe-worthy and made me lose

16:36

sleep at night. So it's like, yes,

16:38

you want to be weird, but you

16:40

also have to recognize that your frequency

16:43

is not going to resonate with everybody's.

16:45

And if that's the case, then you

16:47

just go plant yourself in more suitable

16:50

soil in more suitable soil, but it

16:52

doesn't mean that you shouldn't take the

16:54

shot take the shot. Let's hear about

16:57

this experience situation. Yeah, please share. Yeah,

16:59

so still working through it, just to

17:01

be clear. Thank you for the real-time

17:04

vulnerability here. We are now stepping into

17:06

therapy. And I share this with a

17:08

little bit of hesitation. I'm pulling up

17:11

an email actually. I share it with

17:13

a little bit of hesitation because I

17:15

actually worry that this person might hear

17:18

it. putting yourself out there and launching

17:20

your ideas and being a thought leader

17:22

and writing a book is asking people

17:24

to help you. And I'm assuming most

17:27

people listening have never written a book,

17:29

but it's a lot of work and

17:31

all of the marketing and the selling

17:34

really falls on the author. And so

17:36

it's just been like endless, you know,

17:38

asking for favors and. giving people talking

17:41

points to talk about in their social

17:43

media posts or in a newsletter or

17:45

a show or whatever it is, it's

17:48

a lot of work. And I have

17:50

had some incredible mentors throughout this process,

17:52

some who are very, very well-known famous

17:55

authors or thought leaders in the space.

17:57

And so one of these people who

17:59

was a mentor of mine who was

18:02

just like really taken me under their.

18:04

I with some hesitation leveraged my weird

18:06

shameless reckless self, right, by, you know,

18:09

kicking my imposter syndrome to the curb,

18:11

just being me, the flavor that I

18:13

am, right, of weird, reckless, taking risks

18:16

and erring on the side of action

18:18

and thinking fearlessly that I can do

18:20

this. And I sent a note to

18:23

this person who has, I mean, if

18:25

I said the name, everybody would know

18:27

this person's name, very, very famous author.

18:30

And I basically said, you know, I'd

18:32

be so grateful if you would consider

18:34

sharing this with your audience. And the

18:37

note that I got back was. Alas,

18:39

I'm afraid that my time and effort

18:41

to teach you my approach didn't get

18:44

through, Jenny. At some point, it's not

18:46

worth the effort. I don't even know

18:48

how to respond to a pitch to

18:50

share your work with my audience. You

18:53

decided to do something you knew I'd

18:55

hate. No one likes to be hustled.

18:57

Good luck, but I think it's best

19:00

for us to move on. Bingo. Rough.

19:02

Rough. Go ahead, this

19:04

is for you. I mean, it still

19:06

stings. I've lost sleep that night, like

19:09

a lot of sleep, at a time

19:11

where I don't feel like I can

19:13

afford to lose sleep because I'm in

19:16

this very heavy intense period. I was

19:18

mad at myself, I was disappointed in

19:20

myself that I didn't read the room,

19:23

all these nine traits have something called

19:25

trait traps, which is when you take

19:27

the trait too far, and it really

19:29

made, it was like the dagger of

19:32

the email, and then the second dagger

19:34

I was giving myself of thinking, Jenny,

19:36

you were too shameless, you were too

19:39

selfish, and you didn't prioritize the relationship

19:41

over the request. what's helped me move

19:43

through it. So like to be clear,

19:46

I am still processing this. By the

19:48

way, this conversation helps because good. This

19:50

is what I was for. Yeah. I'm

19:52

still processing it. I haven't responded. And

19:55

then I did the whole. Do I

19:57

respond? Do I not respond? Do I

19:59

respond? Do I respond? to bed, do

20:02

I try to make a pitch to

20:04

like regain this friendship and this mentorship?

20:06

Again, like someone I deeply respect and

20:08

admire. And so, but the lesson to

20:11

me that's coming out of it is

20:13

I have asked a hundred other people

20:15

for help on this launch and they

20:18

have been so excited to help me.

20:20

I mean, you're helping me, right? Like,

20:22

I love it. And so if I,

20:25

if I, if I just, if I

20:27

had a negativity bias, right that social

20:29

psychological Well, that didn't work. I should

20:31

just give up and stop asking people.

20:34

I mean, A, wouldn't be living my

20:36

values of wild courage. I wouldn't get

20:38

any, you know, I would stop doing

20:41

what I do and what I coach

20:43

and help people do, which is live

20:45

with wild courage. And so I know

20:47

that I was living my values. And

20:50

I think the outcome wasn't what I

20:52

wanted, but it doesn't mean that my

20:54

decision to ask was wrong. And I

20:57

did think I'd asked in a really

20:59

thoughtful way. And so, anyway, that's where

21:01

I am with it. No, it's so,

21:04

again, it's beautiful, and I will also

21:06

channel another person I admire and respect

21:08

and appreciate Glenn and Doyle. She has

21:10

a phrase called, Brutiful. which is it's

21:13

such a good phrase right it's such

21:15

a good phrase it's brutal and it's

21:17

beautiful in its own way because you're

21:20

both sharing this lesson that you've learned

21:22

you're sharing it in real time yeah

21:24

and it makes me like I want

21:27

to go to bat and work so

21:29

hard to help you because we've all

21:31

had that experience where we just want

21:33

to crawl into a show and disappear

21:36

for a minute and yet. I felt

21:38

nauseous because of how much I value

21:40

this relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And it's rare

21:43

that someone like breaks up with you,

21:45

right? Like in a platonic business context,

21:47

but like I got fired from this

21:49

person and And of course I go

21:52

to action. What can I do next?

21:54

Like action, not thinking provides clarity, I

21:56

say. And so I'm like, well, what

21:59

do I do? How do I recover?

22:01

What do I say? what's the right

22:03

move, but really I just had to,

22:06

I've had to sit with the sorrow

22:08

and the regret a little bit, but

22:10

also just like the pride that like

22:12

I was living my values and I

22:15

can't control other people's responses. And this

22:17

was a really hard moment, but there's

22:19

like, think about the other moments that

22:22

we have day to day where it's

22:24

maybe not quite this harsh of an

22:26

email or this clear of an outcome,

22:29

but even just like not hearing back

22:31

from a people I've pitched for keynotes

22:33

at their company or consulting projects where

22:35

like I just thought they'd respond and

22:38

they're like, oh, not in the budget,

22:40

maybe later, like it is kind of

22:42

spine straightening for those moments where it's

22:45

like you just got to keep putting

22:47

yourself out there. But it's hard. Let's

22:49

acknowledge that it's hard and yet how

22:51

many people do we know that do

22:54

hard things? Right? We are built for

22:56

hard things. And this is one of

22:58

the reasons I'm sort of mapping the

23:01

fact that we're built for challenge and

23:03

for failure and for struggle. And I'm

23:05

mapping these ideas back on to one

23:08

of the reasons I love your list

23:10

of traits so much. Like, you know,

23:12

weird. There's just the, I think the

23:14

value that connects with actions reckless, right?

23:17

Like, exactly. I talk about action over

23:19

intellect. We can so often paralyze ourselves

23:21

from overthinking. And the reality is as

23:24

soon as you take action, you find

23:26

out a lot. And most of the

23:28

stuff that we try and take, we

23:30

try and intellectualize, that means like create

23:33

a solution from the couch. It's not

23:35

real because we haven't put it out

23:37

in the world yet. And so we

23:40

don't actually learn anything. So, oh my

23:42

gosh. The lens that you have created

23:44

with these list of, again, pretty controversial

23:47

or topics, like again, calling action reckless,

23:49

but it is in a moment it

23:51

feels totally reckless and yet you get

23:53

so much data. from taking action relative

23:56

to inaction, trying to decide the stuff

23:58

from the couch. Yeah, I could not

24:00

agree with you more. Failure is just

24:03

data. And if you wanna double your

24:05

successes, quadruple those failures, right? And look

24:07

at any successful person you admire. Their

24:10

resume is riddled with missteps and failures

24:12

and attempts that didn't pan out, right?

24:14

And boldly asking this person like I

24:16

did, you know, for their support and

24:19

it falling flat. don't just study their

24:21

greatest hits, study the discography of their

24:23

entire career, right? Like it's like we

24:26

focus on, okay, well, they're famous and

24:28

there's not that we all need to

24:30

be famous or want to be famous,

24:32

but whatever it is that you have

24:35

a goal to achieve. You know, I

24:37

do think that the more we can

24:39

take action without living in our heads

24:42

and trying to perfect it is what

24:44

yields that minimum viable product, right? Like

24:46

when I was. There's something I'm sitting

24:49

on right now where I'm just like

24:51

trying to perfect this Google doc and

24:53

like get the images all in the

24:55

right place and the the font to

24:58

be the right size and it's like

25:00

no just send the damn thing out

25:02

Jenny like nobody cares. Get it out

25:05

sooner rather than later and that's what

25:07

reckless is. It's the the courage to

25:09

take calculated risks err on the side

25:11

of action because frankly better to learn

25:14

from your mistakes than waste time analyzing

25:16

the consequences of every decision. Think fast

25:18

and fearless and if you're on the

25:21

fence. do it because there are a

25:23

few things in life that we regret

25:25

because they turned out poorly. I kind

25:28

of regret this one, but I'm still

25:30

learning from it, this, you know, email

25:32

situation. But I think we, there's a

25:34

lot of research supporting we more often

25:37

regret the moves we do make than,

25:39

sorry, we regret the moves we don't

25:41

make than the outcome of the moves

25:44

we do make. Absolutely. All of them

25:46

are learning opportunities. And, you know, what

25:48

does my mom say? She calls it

25:51

like. A-F-L-O. Do we have an explicit

25:53

rating on this show? No, you go

25:55

for it. Okay, she calls it an

25:57

A-F-L-O, another fucking learning opportunity. I love

26:00

it. There you go. Ricky Illis folks,

26:02

Ricky Illis. Thanks Ricky. I love that.

26:04

Hat tip. Hat tip. So this to

26:07

me is really easy for about half

26:09

of our audience. They're like, I'm into

26:11

this, I can do this, and there

26:13

are a half right now that are

26:16

terrified. And you, only the people listening

26:18

right now, know which can't they fit

26:20

in. It doesn't matter, you don't have

26:23

to tell anybody. But it, and it

26:25

doesn't always split along this line, but

26:27

half. half of the people who are

26:30

listening have identified, self-identified as, yeah, but

26:32

these things just aren't me. I am

26:34

an introvert, for example. And this sounds

26:36

very easy for extroverted Google executive Jenny.

26:39

But it sounds terrible. Yeah, it sounds

26:41

terrifying for me. So let's let's talk

26:43

to our introverted, you know, more quieter

26:46

folk who might be doubting that this

26:48

could be, work for them. Okay, I'm

26:50

so glad you're bringing this up because

26:53

it really does work for anyone and

26:55

it can be learned by anyone. These

26:57

are not skills that you're born with

26:59

or traits that you're born with. So

27:02

when I think about how introverts tap

27:04

into their wild courage and make these

27:06

small courage deposits every day, I think

27:09

about, well, what are the steps that

27:11

are purely internal, right, like the ways

27:13

we get in our own way? Because

27:15

when I think about extra version, Reaching

27:18

out to 100 people asking for their

27:20

support, chasing someone off a subway, asking

27:22

for a raise or a promotion or

27:25

that client, all of that is interrelational,

27:27

right? It involves putting yourself out there

27:29

and, you know, let's say, maybe it

27:32

feels to them like an extroverted way

27:34

that they don't have. But let's just

27:36

talk about the conversation within your own

27:38

mind for a minute. And a good

27:41

example of this, this is a tool

27:43

I call truths truths and tales. And

27:45

I'm going to use my example of

27:48

leaving Google. So was there 18 years

27:50

breadwinner for my family? Fancy, you know,

27:52

executive salary, very, very comfortable, never thought

27:54

I would leave for the next 15

27:57

years and that I would just retire

27:59

there. And then all of a sudden.

28:01

and I had all this excitement around

28:04

my ideas and this external interest and

28:06

this like book idea and I was

28:08

like, wait a second, I don't think

28:11

I can do all of this at

28:13

the same time and still be like

28:15

a functional human. But I was terrified

28:17

to leave Google. Terrified. And so I

28:20

would tell myself all sorts of tales,

28:22

right? So tales like, we're gonna have

28:24

to downsize and move out of our.

28:27

house in a great location by all

28:29

the hiking trails in Boulder. We're going

28:31

to starve. I'm leaving to be a

28:34

starving artist who leaves their Google exact

28:36

role to go write a book. I

28:38

will never be able to get hired

28:40

again if the book flops because I'm

28:43

45 and you know no one's going

28:45

to hire a 45 year old right.

28:47

My kids are going to be disappointed

28:50

in me because they can't come to

28:52

Google and ride the slide and get

28:54

the free snacks. My parents are going

28:56

to be thinking I'm nuts to leave

28:59

this, this stability. Every single thing I

29:01

just said is stuff that plagued me

29:03

for a year, Chase. But they're all

29:06

tales. So what are the truths of

29:08

the situation? I would likely make less

29:10

money than at Google in my first

29:13

year. Another truth, I was leaving to

29:15

write a book. Another truth, we had

29:17

a lot in savings. Another truth, I've

29:19

always, I had good guidance from my

29:22

financial advisor. Another truth. My relationship to

29:24

money is one thing, but you know,

29:26

there's other values in life, like time

29:29

with my family, being high net freedom.

29:31

So once I was able to separate

29:33

the truths, which are verifiable facts, right?

29:36

You know, I am leaving to write.

29:38

I will no longer be a Google

29:40

employee, right? Those are truths. But everything

29:42

else I shared was a tale. And

29:45

when you can separate the truths from

29:47

your tales, introvert, man, woman, born in

29:49

India, born in, you know, you know,

29:52

Santa Fe. That is what helps you

29:54

push past the fear because we all

29:56

have these gremlins on our shoulder that

29:58

tell us these stories. But oftentimes those

30:01

stories don't serve us well. So identifying

30:03

the truths and the tales of any

30:05

scary nerve-wracking fear-based... situation, writing them down

30:08

in a column, like one for truths,

30:10

one for tales, and then rewriting the

30:12

tales to be more neutral. You don't

30:15

even have to go nuts and be

30:17

like rose-colored glasses, Pollyanna, just even a

30:19

more neutral tale. Like, I may succeed,

30:21

I may not succeed in this entrepreneurial

30:24

endeavor as a creative, you know, writer,

30:26

influencer, keto speaker. That helps because we

30:28

believe the things we say. And then

30:31

say those neutral tales out loud. Yeah,

30:33

I love this. My friend Tim Ferris

30:35

calls it fear-scaping. And it's so useful

30:37

to say, like, worst case scenario. And

30:40

then when you can actually project that

30:42

worst case scenario under your life and

30:44

it's like, oh, well, if I didn't

30:47

make any money, the first year, my

30:49

savings is X dollars less than it

30:51

would have been if I didn't leave

30:54

Google, or if I wasn't able to

30:56

earn a dollar as an author or

30:58

as an artist or an entrepreneur, or

31:00

whatever the thing is I want to

31:03

want to want to do. And it

31:05

ends up being very valuable. And to

31:07

me, the part that needs refining here

31:10

that I'll ask for refining is why

31:12

is this especially valuable for introverts? Is

31:14

it because there's a thought process which

31:17

is more like considerate and the instinct

31:19

for the extrovert is just to go

31:21

for it? I mean, why introvert to

31:23

this lens? Well, the reason I love

31:26

this tool for introvert is because I

31:28

think it's the least scary for them

31:30

because it all happens internally within you.

31:33

And if extraverts feel more intimidated about

31:35

asking somebody for a raise or a

31:37

new project or a favor, right, because

31:39

it involves somebody else, the reason I

31:42

flag this for introvert is because it

31:44

all happens directly within you. In the

31:46

quiet of your own home or wherever

31:49

you, you know, to me it's a

31:51

good first step is recognizing like what's

31:53

happening within you. that you can control.

31:56

This makes, to me, this is a

31:58

perfect transition around another one of the

32:00

traits and the. concept of shame, again

32:02

referencing Brine Brown for popularizing this and

32:05

I'm really helpful and I felt like

32:07

an open transparent way that we hadn't

32:09

talked about it culturally ever you know

32:12

10 years ago when she came on

32:14

the scene with this vernacular maybe more

32:16

that the concept in in the circles

32:18

that my listeners travel in it's like

32:21

shameless self-promotion for example and and then

32:23

shame is what if you put your

32:25

you know you wear your heart on

32:28

the sleeve and put your ideas out

32:30

there whether in a book or a

32:32

product that you launch or whatever and

32:35

no one buys nobody likes it nobody

32:37

cares how does that make us feel

32:39

about ourselves and you have shameless as

32:41

the concept of swagger as how do

32:44

we you know help us realize that

32:46

being shameless in sort of the classic

32:48

example and in the tongueing cheap like

32:51

yeah the feisty way that you talk

32:53

about it how relate those to our

32:55

listeners yeah so Shameless I define as

32:58

the courage to stand behind your efforts

33:00

and abilities. And you're right, it is

33:02

finding your swagger. It's audacity or shamelessness

33:04

as a survival skill because how will

33:07

you learn if you've got the goods

33:09

if you don't act like it first,

33:11

right? And so it's recognizing your own

33:14

talent, your own power assets. Like what

33:16

are the three things that you're really

33:18

good at and refining those in a

33:20

way that you feel comfortable talking about

33:23

them? I mean. in an entrepreneurial world

33:25

or a creative world, this might be

33:27

sending, you know, your clients some wins

33:30

that you had last week, like, hey,

33:32

just wanted to let you know, like,

33:34

we had so much fun working on

33:37

this project, and here's what we delivered

33:39

for them, and, you know, we'd love

33:41

to partner with you on something coming

33:43

up. And it's like, we feel shame

33:46

in doing that. We feel like it's,

33:48

oh, it's like. shameless self-promotion, but it

33:50

can actually be tasteful self-promotion because you're

33:53

just sharing things and sometimes people need

33:55

what you have to offer, but it's

33:57

not making... yourself available. They don't know.

34:00

It's like, think about the, you know,

34:02

work. my husband John and I are

34:04

thinking about a remodel for our house.

34:06

And when we see a sign on

34:09

someone's lawn who's doing a remodel in

34:11

the neighborhood, we like take a picture

34:13

of that sign and we're like, ooh,

34:16

we're gonna wanna find a great contractor

34:18

when we remodel. This contractor is being

34:20

helpful by quote unquote shamelessly, putting their

34:22

giant sign in the front of this

34:25

other neighbor's house saying remodel brought to

34:27

you by blah blah blah construction. Right.

34:29

But it's actually quite helpful to

34:31

us. And so we're sharing our.

34:34

superpowers with people or our power

34:36

assets, the three strengths or talents

34:38

that we feel like we can

34:40

offer the world, we think that

34:42

we're being obnoxious or too much,

34:45

right? Or too boastful, but we're

34:47

really just sharing information that actually

34:49

can help people. Yeah, I think

34:51

that is, you know, that was

34:53

a big change for me when

34:55

I realized that there are, well,

34:57

two things. One is that as

34:59

a, I'm going back to my

35:01

days primarily where I identified as

35:03

a photographer and it's like my

35:06

absolute banner year, multi-million dollar

35:08

years were when I was

35:10

hired by maybe 25 people.

35:12

And you're like, there's seven

35:14

and a half billion people on

35:17

the planet and I need 25

35:19

to absolutely crush it. How, like finding

35:21

those 25 people, first of all, 25

35:24

is a very small number relative to

35:26

seven and a half billion. Yeah. How

35:28

am I going to discover those people?

35:30

How am I going to connect with

35:33

those people? If, certainly I provided value,

35:35

otherwise they wouldn't have paid me what

35:37

they paid me. So if you can

35:39

reframe this, you know, the concept of

35:42

shame and guilt around going and being

35:44

proud of the work that you put

35:46

out in the world, like... It has a

35:48

chance to completely redefine your business the

35:51

way you think about putting yourself out

35:53

there. Your goal is to connect with

35:55

your people and most people aren't going

35:57

to be your people. That's actually by

35:59

design. Right. And like, I think, you

36:01

know, I always think of like the

36:03

interviewee feeling like, oh, I don't want

36:06

to be shameless in this. pre-interview email

36:08

or like this pre-client project email by

36:10

saying like these are the three things

36:12

I could bring to the table. But

36:14

when I was in exactly Google hiring

36:17

people, like it is so hard to

36:19

find good talent, Chase. And I would

36:21

like to have interview after interview. So

36:23

if you're the photographer or you're the

36:25

writer or you're the designer or you're

36:28

the marketer who's like, well, you know,

36:30

gosh, I'm sure there are so many

36:32

other people out there who are better

36:34

than I. think of this moment in

36:37

a meeting I was in once at

36:39

Google where someone said in a room

36:41

of maybe 30 people she's like this

36:43

is a shameless plug but I created

36:45

this spreadsheet and I'm just gonna share

36:48

it with you and I wince when

36:50

someone says this is a shameless plug

36:52

because she shared that spreadsheet and I'm

36:54

just gonna share it with you and

36:56

I wince when someone says this is

36:59

a shameless plug because she shared that

37:01

spreadsheet every single time and you've Why

37:03

can't it just be, I'm proud of

37:05

this thing I created and I'm so

37:08

excited to share it with you. And

37:10

then think about how that sounds to

37:12

the world, right? You seem like a

37:14

leader. You seem like someone that people

37:16

are excited to do work with. We

37:19

have a nanny we just hired and

37:21

we had her fill out an application

37:23

on Google, on Google form. And she

37:25

said, I'm an exceptional cook. And I'd

37:27

love to cook for your family. I'm

37:30

like, that is so shameless. I was

37:32

like, exceptional cook and guess what? She

37:34

is. You've got to have the goods

37:36

to back it up. Yeah. But even,

37:38

but like, it's one of the reasons

37:41

she got the job because she shamelessly

37:43

touted one of her superpowers. Yeah. And

37:45

it's different than just saying, I enjoy

37:47

cooking. Very different. And there is. And

37:50

I loved her confidence, by the way.

37:52

I hired her in part because of

37:54

her confidence. That's something that, to me,

37:56

these things sort of parlay off one

37:58

another, one another, which is if you.

38:01

are bringing your skills to the world

38:03

in a, you know, according to your

38:05

vernacular in the book in a shameless

38:07

way. Yeah. Not only are you helping

38:09

the right people find you, but when

38:12

that works out, when you are comfortable

38:14

speaking up about your work, and the

38:16

world reinforces it by hiring you. This

38:18

is sort of the, this is how

38:21

confidence and positive self-talk, this is, this

38:23

is, this is at the root of

38:25

this stuff, right? It's like, of course,

38:27

you've said it several times, you need

38:29

to be able to walk the talk,

38:32

but there are things that every single

38:34

person who's listening right now knows that

38:36

they are great at, that the world

38:38

does not. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You get

38:40

no credit for stories you do not

38:43

tell. Right. And then I've even had

38:45

to, like, again, because I'm an entrepreneur

38:47

and a creative for the first time,

38:49

and I'm learning the ropes and making

38:52

a lot of mistakes. We talked about

38:54

one. But here's another one. I was

38:56

offered a keynote opportunity. I was so

38:58

excited about it. Big Fortune 500 company.

39:00

And then they said, you know, we

39:03

were about to do the deal that

39:05

we were in the contracting stage and

39:07

they said, hey, by the way, most

39:09

of our audience is in Asia and

39:11

Europe. So that's 3 AM my time

39:14

for a virtual talk. And I was

39:16

like, I don't know if I don't

39:18

think I want to say yes to

39:20

this. So there's also something, well, this

39:23

more gets to the brutal trait, which

39:25

is the power of no and setting

39:27

boundaries around your time and energy. But

39:29

I said, well, could we do 6

39:31

AM my time, 8 AM Eastern time?

39:34

and figuring we'd meet in the middle,

39:36

they'd come back with 4.30, and then

39:38

I, they just said no. They're like,

39:40

well, we're just gonna go with someone

39:42

else. And then I did get a

39:45

little bit shameless and say, well, no,

39:47

I could do 3 a.m. I just

39:49

thought it would be better, but I'd

39:51

already lost the deal. And so I

39:54

think it's also just recognizing, you know,

39:56

we can renegotiate deals, we can attempt

39:58

to renegotiate deals, like you can stand

40:00

up for what you, I should have

40:02

just done it at 3 a.m. But

40:05

you know, I think there's also, there's

40:07

an element of recognizing that like where

40:09

do you push, where do you not

40:11

push, but I think most people. need

40:13

to dial up their ability to ask

40:16

for what they want and those people

40:18

live with more imposter syndrome or feel

40:20

so bad or they people please and

40:22

that's what I want to help people

40:25

with through wild courage. Yeah I would

40:27

say we all know that person who's

40:29

like wow you are in 11 out

40:31

of a 10. And there are some

40:33

aspects of that we love, some that

40:36

we don't, but I would say 99%

40:38

of people that I know, we need

40:40

to dial up. And I don't know

40:42

if you're familiar with the gentleman named

40:44

Gia Jang, who he took this concept

40:47

of rejection therapy and then went on

40:49

a hundred days of rejection, asking crazy

40:51

requests of people, like ask Krispy Kreme

40:53

if they would make donuts in the

40:56

shape of the Olympic rings and asked

40:58

a police officer if he could drive

41:00

his car. Oh my gosh, I love

41:02

it. And yes, as by the way,

41:04

as a response to both these things,

41:07

they made him the donuts in the

41:09

shape of Olympic rings. And yes, he

41:11

drove a cop car. Amazing. This, as

41:13

people are digesting, again, I want to

41:15

hat-tip, the book is called Wild Courage,

41:18

go after what you want and get

41:20

it. The general. pattern in life is

41:22

not that we have too many go-getters

41:24

and boy, it's just... Or too many

41:27

assholes, you know, like too many obnoxious,

41:29

arrogant, like classically selfish, manipulative, and shameless

41:31

people. Like, I interrupted you, but I'm

41:33

so passionate about the fact that like,

41:35

don't sweat it that you're going to

41:38

turn into an a hole if you

41:40

tap into your wild courage. There are

41:42

way more people who need to dial

41:44

it up, then dial it back. And

41:46

I mean, it's literally like... nine out

41:49

of 10 people who are listening to

41:51

this show right now could benefit deeply

41:53

from, no, there's a practical, that's one

41:55

of the things I loved about the

41:58

book is there's a very practical almost

42:00

sort of like workbook approach. These are.

42:02

I think that's a really important thing.

42:04

They're traits and skills that you can,

42:06

that you develop through the process of

42:09

doing these things and you are thoughtful

42:11

and give us ways to practice them.

42:13

And at the end of the day,

42:15

do you feel like that the, like

42:17

which of these traits? Well, I'm guessing

42:20

you may have a favorite one. And

42:22

two, if you don't have a favorite,

42:24

which do you feel like is a

42:26

good place for the person who's just

42:29

hearing about this for the first time

42:31

to start? Your favorite or maybe both.

42:33

You can answer these questions however you

42:35

want. But that's on the table. Okay,

42:37

so asking me my favorite trait is

42:40

like asking me which is my favorite

42:42

child? So I think it's more about

42:44

like, how do I feel today? Well,

42:46

I love, I love the obsessed treat

42:48

because I think it's misunderstood. Well, they're

42:51

all misunderstood. Sure. But, you know, I

42:53

was working with a keynote coach who's

42:55

just incredible, Mike Pacquion, if anybody needs

42:57

a keynote coach. And he's like, Jenny,

43:00

I read the book and I actually

43:02

skipped over the upset. So the answer

43:04

is obsessed is what I'm thinking about

43:06

right now. Obsessed is the courage to

43:08

set your own standard to. push and

43:11

to perform and to persist because none

43:13

of these traits will serve you well

43:15

if you if you don't take pride

43:17

in your work and learn to deliver

43:19

not for some not for like your

43:22

clients for yourself right yeah because it

43:24

feels so good to do your best

43:26

work and to put your energy and

43:28

your effort into something so Mike read

43:31

the book and prep for our keynote

43:33

and he's like okay you know really

43:35

enjoyed reading it Don't be mad. I

43:37

skipped over the obsessed chapter. It just

43:39

sounded like it was a lot of

43:42

work and tiring and like, you know,

43:44

I just, it sounded like it was

43:46

hard work. And I was like, oh

43:48

my gosh, my good feedback. But then

43:50

the next day, Chase, this shocked me.

43:53

He was like, he's like, Jenny, I

43:55

want you to watch minute seven of

43:57

the Steve Jobs Stanford commencement speech. I

43:59

think there's something you can do very

44:01

similar here. And then you can do

44:04

very similar. at minutes 13 because let's

44:06

think about how we can incorporate that.

44:08

I think you can do that too.

44:10

He's like and then also I I

44:13

built out this story three different ways

44:15

for the keynote, and I think all

44:17

of them could play pretty well, but

44:19

I want to get it just right.

44:21

So we nail it for the audience.

44:24

And he was so obsessed with making

44:26

this the best possible keynote he could.

44:28

He was so excited about the craft.

44:30

You fell into my trap. Right. And

44:32

so I was like, Mike, you do

44:35

realize that you are obsessed in the

44:37

best possible way, and I love you

44:39

for it. But I just think there's

44:41

something really special about and I feel

44:44

obsessed right now with how. I'm sharing

44:46

this material with the world and how

44:48

I'm encouraging people and like it has

44:50

been a lot of work, but I

44:52

have so much pride, so much pride

44:55

in that work. And okay, so if

44:57

we're now I'll relate it to how

44:59

it can how it can help people

45:01

or like what's where to start. Sure.

45:03

Also related to obsessed is something as

45:06

simple as counting. How many of your

45:08

sentences you send to a client, to

45:10

a business partner start with the word

45:12

I versus start with the word you?

45:15

So I drafted this email the other

45:17

day to a client where I'd done

45:19

a keynote, and I said I had

45:21

so much fun partnering with you. I

45:23

loved doing the talk around leadership. I

45:26

would love to come back and pilot

45:28

this other workshop I have around teamwork

45:30

and communication skills, and I'd be so

45:32

thrilled to do that with you too.

45:34

Okay, so there were like four sentences

45:37

in there that started with I. obsessed

45:39

is, I call this tool, woo with

45:41

you by the way, woo your client,

45:43

your audience, your partner, by putting the

45:46

focus on them and being obsessed about

45:48

what's in it for them or, you

45:50

know, their skills or their talents. So

45:52

I rewrote it, wooing with you. And

45:54

rather than I loved partnering with your

45:57

team, I changed it to a sentence

45:59

that started with you, you were an

46:01

incredible team to partner with. Rather than

46:03

I had so much fun doing this

46:05

leadership keynote, I said, your team was

46:08

top notch and responded so well to

46:10

these concepts which lit me up. You

46:12

know, I have this new communications training

46:14

that I'd love to pilot, changed it

46:17

to your team might benefit from being

46:19

better communicators and, you know, having better

46:21

teamwork skills, let me know if I

46:23

can help you and add value to

46:25

your organization. So that is an obsessed

46:28

way to write an email, but it's

46:30

really effective. Wu with you. Well, the

46:32

concept of obsession is also not new

46:34

to the ears and the eyes of

46:36

our listeners and watches here because it's

46:39

true. You sort of can't stand out

46:41

and fit in at the same time

46:43

or our social creatures. So we desire

46:45

to fit in and yet, you know,

46:48

our ability to be the best in

46:50

the world of what we want to

46:52

be in any craft requires obsession in

46:54

the classical sense, but also just being.

46:56

So, um, detail driven. I do not

46:59

know a person who I would describe

47:01

as, you know, among the best in

47:03

the world at their craft. Let's go

47:05

back to Mike around the keynote, who

47:07

would not absolutely delight in telling me

47:10

very, very specific feedback about why this

47:12

particular thing is better than that particular

47:14

thing. And if you deconstruct. there have

47:16

been a lot of studies done on

47:19

the patterns of very successful founders. And

47:21

I think it was Ben Horowitz, who

47:23

I just recently saw this, he was

47:25

like, the pattern that we see is

47:27

they're obsessed with the tiniest details early

47:30

on the process, where someone else, like,

47:32

oh yeah, we'll figure that out later,

47:34

or it's an MVP or whatever, it's

47:36

like, truly great founders are obsessed with

47:38

the right things. And that's probably, you

47:41

know, a hat tip to the Steve

47:43

Jobs part that Mike wanted to, you

47:45

to tap into or something. It doesn't

47:47

strike me, I mean I guess I'm

47:50

going to frame this in the positive,

47:52

it strikes me that when I'm, you

47:54

know, consuming the book, there is that

47:56

truth. The truth just sounds different and

47:58

you. said these things in a way

48:01

that I can't ignore because I can

48:03

reflect on my own life. That's what

48:05

we're doing when we're reading a book

48:07

is we're like, wow, of course. It's

48:09

like, man. The truth hits different and

48:12

you've just you've spent a lot of

48:14

truth in the how many pages is

48:16

your book today. 220. There you go

48:18

and 220 pages. So first of all,

48:20

thank you. Again, I got to remind

48:23

the folks, Wild Courage, go after what

48:25

you want and get it. And I

48:27

also want to leave room in today's

48:29

conversation for you to tell me some

48:31

of the things that I missed. Like

48:34

what do you feel like is an

48:36

area of the book that you find

48:38

surprising or that most people. don't realize

48:40

and then what's the. the Trojan horse.

48:42

Okay, so there are two things I'd

48:45

love to share. One is the importance

48:47

of trait traps and the other is

48:49

a story about my grandma Lila. So,

48:51

okay, so when you bring up obsession,

48:54

when I brought up obsession, I think

48:56

it's actually pretty important to

48:58

address a critical part of the book,

49:00

which is called trait traps. It's when

49:02

you take them too far and maybe

49:04

I mentioned that already, but I want

49:07

to double down on it. Great. I

49:09

have been plagued by being too obsessed

49:11

and not having the right balance around

49:13

like when is the MVP the minimum

49:15

viable product appropriate and when do you

49:17

go whole hog and perfect minutes 17

49:19

of the keynote. And so I share

49:22

one story oftentimes with people where I

49:24

was prepping for a big presentation at

49:26

Google and I had this presentation coach

49:28

and she gave me like 14 things to

49:30

think about like the perfect hand position, where

49:32

to walk across the stage and where to,

49:35

you know, talk quietly for a fact and

49:37

where to be more excited. I did this

49:39

big presentation to a bunch of customers and

49:41

it went well, classically, but I walked off

49:43

stage and I just felt like I had

49:46

failed. And I came home to John, my

49:48

husband, and I was like, I bombed. And

49:50

he's like, what do you mean you bombed?

49:52

Like you said the feedback was good. And

49:54

I was just like, I just feel like

49:56

I failed because I was so overwhelmed with

49:58

all the things. I was trying

50:01

to do right, that I didn't

50:03

even enjoy the process. And Barry

50:05

Schwartz, a professor at Swarthmore University,

50:07

has a name for this. It's

50:09

called Maximizers and Satisfizers. And Maximizers

50:11

are always trying to, like, squeeze

50:13

out every last possibility of, you

50:15

know, perfection and optimization. And they

50:17

do get slightly better results, but

50:19

they're a lot less happier. you

50:21

know, maybe they get slightly worse

50:23

results, but they're happier with the

50:25

outcome. And I know that sounds

50:27

almost like the, um, the antidote

50:29

or sorry, the, um, like working

50:31

against my argument of wild courage,

50:33

but it is important to know

50:35

the context and to know, like,

50:37

when do you take it too

50:39

far? And how can you be

50:41

mindful of that and, and, um,

50:43

and pushing and drive to the

50:45

situation. So that's trait traps. To

50:47

your, but hat tip to you

50:49

because I think you do a

50:51

masterful job and as we already

50:53

sort of reviewed this. is not

50:55

about constraining the 110th percentile of

50:57

courage seekers here. This is, we,

50:59

so many of us are so

51:01

scared of so many things. And

51:03

what we really do need is

51:05

a dose of courage. And it's

51:07

not 100% courage, 0% fear. Exactly.

51:09

It's 51, 49. The courage to

51:11

actually, you know, ask your. than

51:13

stranger on the subway car, now

51:15

husband John. Yes. We all need,

51:17

not all, 99.99% of us need

51:19

a healthy dose of that, especially

51:21

in a world that's having us

51:23

be, you know, more quiet, more

51:25

fearful, more aversion towards our goals

51:27

than what we really ought to

51:29

be doing, which is chasing them

51:31

and unleashing the best version of

51:33

ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. Should I talk

51:35

about grandma Lila? I was just

51:37

going to say we can't not

51:39

hear about grandma now so please

51:41

do. Well we talked a lot

51:43

about being shameless and so this

51:45

is like such a great button

51:47

on what was a heavy dose

51:49

of the conversation. today. So, okay,

51:51

grandma, Lila was like a total

51:53

badass at four feet ten and

51:56

ninety pounds. She was like such

51:58

a maven. So not only did

52:00

she agree to be a bridesmaid

52:02

in my wedding at the age

52:04

of 88, she was also the

52:06

CEO of her own financial services

52:08

company until 92. And when John

52:10

and I first got married, she

52:12

had an apartment in Manhattan, rent

52:14

control, three bedrooms, three bathrooms, like

52:16

total, total locks. And so we

52:18

were staying with her on her

52:20

pullout couch when we were apartment

52:22

hunting early on. And we all

52:24

sit down to dinner one night

52:26

and John delivers some unfortunate news.

52:28

He has been part of a

52:30

major company restructure and unfortunately he

52:32

tells us he's been laid off.

52:34

So I am crushed as a

52:36

newlywed and feel so bad for

52:38

him. But I look across the

52:40

table and Grandma Lila says one

52:42

of her classic lines, which was

52:44

no is just an opening offer.

52:46

And John and I look at

52:48

each other trying to silently communicate

52:50

what we're thinking. And then John

52:52

says, grandma, I don't think it

52:54

works that way. A layoff? It's

52:56

like a one-sided thing. They say,

52:58

you don't work here anymore. And

53:00

I say. Okay, and then grandma

53:02

Lila's size, and she says, well,

53:04

sure, it might be more comfortable

53:06

to take no for an answer,

53:08

but that discomfort will pass. Get

53:10

your ego out of the way

53:12

and find a compromise. You both

53:14

want something. You want a job

53:16

because it's easier to get a

53:18

job when you have a job,

53:20

and they want to get stuff

53:22

done, even though they can't afford

53:24

to pay you. And so then

53:26

finally, genre lens and half-heartedly the

53:28

next day goes to his VP

53:30

and offers to stay on for

53:32

10% time and pay while he

53:34

job hunts. And surprisingly, Chase, they

53:36

accept. And so, and by the

53:38

way, then they moved him back

53:40

to 50%, then back to 100%

53:42

time when the financial crisis passed.

53:44

Like, it's a banana story. So

53:46

I'm not telling the story as

53:48

some influenced tactic per se. The

53:51

point is Grandma Lila's lesson. Don't

53:53

let fear shape your decisions. And

53:55

how often do we do that?

53:57

How often do we not ask

53:59

a partner for what we want

54:01

or a client for what we

54:03

need or that cute person on

54:05

the subway for their business card?

54:07

When we don't do it, it's

54:09

oftentimes because of fear of failure,

54:11

fear of uncertainty, fear of judgment

54:13

of others, or fear that we

54:15

might be called shameless or selfish

54:17

or reckless or weird. But when

54:19

fear is the root of the

54:21

blocker, it's actually such good news,

54:23

because fear... you can work with

54:25

and muster the wild courage to

54:27

chase after what you want in

54:29

life and you will discover a

54:31

vital truth no matter whether you

54:33

succeed or fail in any one

54:35

given thing and we talked about

54:37

some of those on this podcast

54:39

where I failed like blatantly the

54:41

three a.m. meeting the email from

54:43

this famous author no matter whether

54:45

you would succeed or fail in

54:47

any one given thing you will

54:49

never feel as purposeful. powerful and

54:51

alive as when you're pushing past

54:53

that fear to the joy and

54:55

success on the other side, because

54:57

everything you've ever wanted is right

54:59

there waiting for you on the

55:01

other side of fear. So reach

55:03

for it. with wild courage. That

55:05

is the reason that I wrote

55:07

the book Never Play it Safe

55:09

is the same punchline. We're so

55:11

cut from the same cloth, right?

55:13

It's bananas to me. All the

55:15

best stuff is right over there.

55:17

Yeah. Here's the ticket price. Are

55:19

you willing? Yeah. And sometimes you

55:21

do have to be the price.

55:23

I have many times, right? And

55:25

sometimes it stings and sometimes it

55:27

costs you money or time or

55:29

energy or ego. But... You got

55:31

to do it. You got to

55:33

do it. It's not an accident

55:35

that your book is number one

55:37

bestseller in professional development on Amazon

55:39

right now. Please folks, Wild Courage

55:41

is the title, Go After What

55:43

You Want and Get It. Jenny,

55:46

thank you so much for being

55:48

a guest on the show. You're

55:50

welcome any time here. Keep putting

55:52

this great workout into the world

55:54

and grateful to have had you

55:56

on the show. Thank you so

55:58

much. What a joy. to be

56:00

here and have this conversation. Until

56:02

next time from Jenny, and yours

56:04

truly, we're signing off, have an

56:06

amazing day. Thanks for listening. All

56:08

right, hey, before you go, thanks

56:10

so much for listening. And if

56:12

you got value from this show,

56:14

chances are your community will too,

56:16

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56:18

Universal. Please share this link to

56:20

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56:22

mention the show on social. That

56:24

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56:26

in hopefully an exchange for providing

56:28

value to you. I want you

56:30

to know that I really appreciate

56:32

your time, the attention, anything that

56:34

you give to the show, and

56:36

the questions that you ask our

56:38

guests here on social media or

56:40

through my text community, all that

56:42

is pure gold. This community, like

56:44

any community, is a testament to

56:46

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world. So, just a quick thank

57:02

you. I appreciate all the effort

57:04

you put into sharing for the

57:06

show. All right, that's a wrap.

57:08

Let's put today's episode into practice

57:10

and get back to growing together.