0:00

What up guys? Welcome to the Chitsu

0:02

podcast, episode, whatever crazy number we're on.

0:04

Today we got a buddy of mine.

0:06

He's one of the guys I trained

0:08

with when I first started. So we'll talk

0:11

a little bit more about this in

0:13

the podcast, but just to sort of

0:15

set the stage for you guys that

0:17

are here. When I first started back

0:19

in 2003, there was a guy who

0:21

people talked about, who wasn't there at

0:23

the time, was a blue belt named

0:25

Amsterdam. And he was got him Daniel

0:27

from Amsterdam and you know we I

0:29

heard about him and then eventually we

0:32

end up training together and for a couple

0:34

of years while he was training off and

0:36

on in the states. He became

0:38

like my main toughest training partner. We

0:40

battled in the gym, you know, and

0:42

we were constantly, you know, getting the

0:44

better of one another and he had

0:46

a really big impact on me early

0:49

on because some of the things like

0:51

we were training and we'll talk to

0:53

us in a bit, we were training

0:55

and we'll talk to us in a

0:57

bit like we were in an environment

0:59

where we were just trying to kill

1:01

each other all the time and he

1:03

even we get frustrated by that because

1:05

he's like, like, I remember, Again and

1:07

then even back then I remember his like he

1:09

was like a wealth of knowledge the guy just

1:11

knew so much stuff I remember feeling like stupid

1:13

because like I I don't know how to do

1:15

any of this stuff you know I mean like

1:17

so if you guys ever feel like you don't

1:19

like retain everything that you feel kind of stupid.

1:22

It's okay. You can still be very good at

1:24

Jesuits and still not remember everything and have it

1:26

right there. But he had just a work acknowledged

1:28

of everything that was like really impressive. So anyway,

1:30

we have him on the podcast and chat about

1:32

kind of the old days we were training and

1:35

then just wherever the conversation went. I recently he

1:37

had posted a picture. on Instagram and I was

1:39

just like, dude, it would be so cool to

1:41

talk again. I haven't talked to this guy in

1:43

20 years, but we've kept up in touch with

1:46

each other loosely over social media Facebook and things

1:48

like that. But again, hopefully you guys enjoy the

1:50

conversation, listen to me training with one of

1:52

my old white belt and blue belt training

1:54

partners and get something from it. He has

1:57

some cool ideas on training and we'll jump

1:59

into it. Big things towards. sponsors. We have

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like crazy and having like crippling anxiety.

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high energy person and so I don't

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for me it's like for me it's

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like a superpower it's like how do

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you get so much done it's like

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because I've got this energy always buzzing

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in me and I don't want anything

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to slow me down I remember that

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was like when I was a kid

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they gave me painkillerslers And so I

3:42

was like, I'm not using these like

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because I didn't like it. And even

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as an adult, I remember like when

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3:52

was like, I don't want to take

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that because I'm going to feel like

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7:20

When you join up, you get a bunch

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of different exclusive benefits for becoming a patron

7:24

supporter. You can check those perks out if

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appreciate those perks out if you want to

7:31

on the website. And we appreciate those of

7:33

you who choose to do that every month.

7:35

It helps out the podcast a lot and

7:38

thank you so much. and you'd like to

7:40

get my e-book that goes into having to

7:42

how to focus your open roles you can

7:45

get it by going to my website at

7:47

chujitsu.net/join when you join up at chujitsu.net/join you'll

7:49

get the email sent to you to which

7:51

again goes into everything that I think might

7:54

be fun or interesting to you, kind of

7:56

like the podcast, and then on top of

7:58

that you'll get an e-book and a video

8:00

that comes along with it that goes into

8:03

some ideas on how to improve focus for

8:05

your training. I wrote the book for anybody

8:07

who is, I wrote the book for anybody

8:09

who is most people, 90% of people in

8:12

Jiu-Jitsu, who can't train every single day, and

8:14

you want to get the most from your

8:16

training sessions, and then in particular this to

8:19

teach how to get the most from your

8:21

how to get the most from your rolling

8:23

sessions, Any of you guys that are broken

8:25

Maybe you're older broken whatever if you want

8:28

to get someone to help you fix you

8:30

to help give you guidance on what's broken

8:32

what's wrong or What you could do to

8:34

improve your mobility or what muscles are tight

8:37

all that kind of stuff Check out my

8:39

buddy Eugene. He's currently doing some one-on-one coaching

8:41

and I bring this up to you because

8:44

he's been my physical therapist since I was

8:46

you know 15 years now or so. And

8:48

again, he's helped me through a lot of

8:50

different issues, both coming back from surgeries and

8:53

then also to addressing problems so they didn't

8:55

get worse. And again, usually it's it's just

8:57

assessment, followed by here's your stuff to do.

8:59

And again, if you want accountability in that

9:02

sense, right, if you want someone who's like,

9:04

hey, are you doing your stuff like check

9:06

in with me, whatever, and you need help

9:09

with that kind of thing, check them. Eugene,

9:11

where can they find information at? Yeah, you

9:13

can go check me out on Instagram, Jiu-Jitsu

9:15

therapist or even send me an email, Jujitsu

9:18

therapist at Gmail.com, also on my website, it's

9:20

all the same stuff, but yeah, you can,

9:22

yeah, just check it out and usually I

9:24

do it by starting with like a 15

9:27

minute call just to get a feel for

9:29

what you've got going on and see if

9:31

we're a right fit. And then usually do

9:34

like a monthly programming, so you get monthly

9:36

programming where we check in pretty much. checking

9:38

with people multiple multiple times a week so

9:40

like it helps with accountability but also we

9:43

can modify and create a different plan or

9:45

adjust your plans we need to just see

9:47

how everything goes so yeah so if you

9:49

guys like again it's not cheap but at

9:52

the same time if you guys want someone

9:54

who knows what they're doing Again, I put

9:56

my still of approval on him, like he's

9:59

helped me out a ton over the years

10:01

and helped out like probably half our gym,

10:03

you know, like the other day someone came

10:05

up to me said, hey chewy, like my

10:08

shoulders hurt instead of my go see Eugene,

10:10

don't talk to me, like I could probably

10:12

guess some stuff, I'll get to Eugene, don't

10:14

talk to me, like I could probably guess

10:17

some stuff, but he'll be able to like,

10:19

I could probably guess some stuff, I'll guess,

10:21

or something, you, Eugene, don't, don't talk to

10:24

you, don't talk to you, don't talk to

10:26

me, don't talk to me, don't talk to

10:28

me, don't talk to me, I could go

10:30

see, don't talk to me, don't talk to

10:33

me, don't talk to me, I could go

10:35

see, don't talk to me, don't talk to

10:37

me, I could go see, I could go

10:39

see, don't talk to me, don't talk to

10:42

me, don't, you know we have a lot

10:44

of times even if we have the information

10:46

we know what to do the next thing

10:49

that we lack is like having someone over

10:51

top of us going come on chop chop

10:53

check you know it's like yeah it's like

10:55

even we talked about we talk about parenthood

10:58

in the in the the podcast right like

11:00

a lot of times parents know what to

11:02

do and so they can help their kids

11:04

do it yeah but they don't do the

11:07

same things because they don't have someone over

11:09

top of them keeping them you know you

11:11

know keeping them honest about it. And I

11:14

think for all of us in different aspects

11:16

of our lives, we may be really good

11:18

about keeping ourselves accountable here, but in other

11:20

areas, maybe they don't come as naturally to

11:23

us or whatever, it's harder. So useful stuff,

11:25

if you guys want to check it out.

11:27

So anyway, that said, let's get into this

11:29

podcast with Daniel. 2,000, I think it was

11:32

like 2005. I think that was when Conan

11:34

was at the gym when he started with

11:36

us. And I think it was 2005. And

11:39

you posted that picture and I was like,

11:41

oh, let's let's chat. Let's catch up. And

11:43

I was like, yeah, man. Just big excuse.

11:45

Awesome. But it's very awesome to see you

11:48

all grown up and having a beard. Well,

11:50

yeah, the last time, I mean, the last

11:52

time that we actually saw each other face

11:54

to face to face was probably 2005, I

11:57

think, wasn't Maybe yeah, I think I yeah,

11:59

2005 I lived in the States for a

12:01

while. I was going back and forth for

12:03

like five years because I was dating an

12:06

American woman. As you do, as a strapping

12:08

European lad, you ended up dating an American

12:10

woman. And that fell through, but yeah, I

12:13

started training you just so with you guys.

12:15

Maybe you weren't there yet. I'm not

12:17

quite sure. You came before me.

12:19

Yeah. Yeah, it was in Louisville,

12:22

Kentucky. And Powerhouse Jim.

12:24

It was like waitlifting Jim

12:27

with some... I think some W-W-W-E

12:29

wrestlers trained there too, I think,

12:31

but he's the train there. For

12:33

a little bit, like they had

12:36

them, they were, that was when

12:38

the Ohio Valley Wrestling, Thirk, was

12:40

really big and was a feeder

12:42

to the W-W-E, and so there's

12:44

a lot of like W-W-E wrestlers

12:46

that would come through there and

12:48

work out. Yeah, and there was

12:50

some crazy Kung Fu guy that

12:53

was teaching in the class before

12:55

we went there, to go into

12:57

bars because I was 20 at

12:59

the time. Oh wow. And yeah,

13:01

and but I think yeah, you

13:03

join man. What did you, when

13:05

did you join? How old were

13:07

you? So I joined in 2003,

13:09

May of 2003, and I

13:12

remember. I started then, you

13:14

were gone, but I had heard

13:16

people talk about you. You know,

13:18

because it was like, you know,

13:20

because there's this guy that would

13:22

intermittently come in and train who

13:25

was apparently pretty good, right? Back

13:27

then we just called him

13:29

Amsterdam. You know, and so... Nobody

13:31

knew my name. So, so apparently, my

13:33

name's Daniel, but, but I didn't

13:35

know that it was Daniel until

13:37

you sent me like an email

13:40

or something. You sent me an

13:42

email. It's like, oh, it's Daniel.

13:44

Just like nobody knew my name

13:46

was chewy until Facebook or I

13:48

knew my name was Nick until

13:51

Facebook. Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

13:53

No, it was, it was, it

13:55

was awesome. And the thing is

13:57

like, there was one place Hemkopardu.

13:59

In Os, who was teaching, there were

14:02

a handful of other people teaching, some

14:04

Hickson affiliates, but very, very few people.

14:06

And I wanted to give it a

14:08

shot because I've been doing Japanese to

14:10

Jitsu and Judo and karate for a

14:13

long time since I was a kid.

14:15

And I was a black belt in

14:17

Japanese to Jitsu, which is kind of

14:19

like a karate Judo blend. It has

14:22

a competition element. It's like a, it

14:24

would kind of look like sombo. You

14:26

punch the guy, you throw the guy.

14:28

But it was very rough. There wasn't

14:30

really refined technique. And I was a

14:33

black belt and I was there. I

14:35

went there for my first trial class

14:37

and nobody was there. And then Kyle

14:39

Cannon. Remember Kyle Cannon? Oh yeah, yeah,

14:42

yeah. He lives in in Brazil now.

14:44

Yeah, San Pao. But he was a

14:46

purple belt. And I wore my black

14:48

belt. And I went there for the

14:50

first class and he just told me

14:53

private, but I said, yeah, I only

14:55

brought a black belt. Is that okay

14:57

if I wear it? And he was

14:59

like, yes, you can wear it. And

15:01

I was like, oh shit. And he

15:04

triangleed me like 10,000 times and sounds

15:06

about right. Yeah. And then like, okay,

15:08

I have to learn this. I took

15:10

my black belt off. I went to

15:13

a store and got a white belt

15:15

to put the white belt on because

15:17

I didn't know. And I started training

15:19

with Mike Yanez and Kyle Cannon and

15:21

his brother, his name, escaped now. Colin.

15:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had leaving

15:26

Mike later on in 2007 and started

15:28

training with Kyle and Colin. They became

15:30

my coaches afterwards. Right, right, right. But,

15:33

but, but Chui, just for the listeners

15:35

to give you an idea, because Chui

15:37

is like. He has a nice grandfatherly

15:39

attitude now. He has a beard. He's

15:41

like a very, he's a charming guy.

15:44

You know, he's like always doing that.

15:46

I know where this is going. Given

15:48

advice and stuff, but this gentleman right

15:50

here, he was a, he was a

15:53

teenager. And yeah, we, he tried not

15:55

to die when I, when I wrote

15:57

with you, but. Yeah, man, you had

15:59

that wrestling relentless wrestling pressure and I

16:01

think the gym that we trained at

16:04

was the only gym that actually invited

16:06

wrestlers to come train Yeah credit the

16:08

Mike Janus because all the other Jiu-Jitsu

16:10

gyms were kind of scared of wrestlers

16:12

Because they were too rough, you know

16:15

what I'm saying and Mike was like

16:17

not bring them in bring them in

16:19

so you were one of those strapping

16:21

wrestler wrestler wrestler kids that would just

16:24

come in like how did you find

16:26

Jiu Jitsu? Well, I was

16:28

searching on the internet, right? And so back

16:30

then, again, and this is, this is just

16:32

getting out of the 1900s. So the internet

16:35

wasn't what it is today, right? There was

16:37

no Facebook, ladies and gentlemen. Or maybe, no,

16:39

my space. Right. My space was, well, when

16:41

I first started, my space wasn't even around

16:44

yet. And Google. it wasn't the machine that

16:46

it is now where like instantly puts up

16:48

exactly what you're looking for. You had to

16:51

do some digging and so I found some

16:53

website in the some it was like bjjj.org

16:55

or something and it had a you know

16:57

different list of stuff and so I contacted

17:00

the gyms and you know like you said

17:02

a lot of the gyms weren't really that

17:04

competitive. And so I talked to in some

17:06

of them were pretty expensive even back then.

17:09

And so I remember calling up a couple

17:11

of the gyms. They were one. They were

17:13

kind of expensive to they didn't really talk

17:15

about competitions. I send Mike a message on.

17:18

an email and he gets back to me

17:20

and sends me like this color coded list

17:22

of his competition wins and was like yes

17:24

we compete come join whatever and it was

17:27

it was cheaper than the other ones and

17:29

so I was like competition and it's cheaper

17:31

that's what I want and then I started

17:34

training in May if like when I was

17:36

still in high school I started training you

17:38

know that was so cool and I remember

17:40

going back to you I remember our very

17:43

first role right and again you know I'm

17:45

sure because I'm sure people that roll with

17:47

you when they come across you at the

17:49

camps and stuff that you do or back

17:52

home, whatever. You're probably incredibly helpful and inviting

17:54

and dead to dead and very knowledgeable smooth.

17:56

So when we when him and I would

17:58

go, it was like this. Right and it

18:01

was just like a fight every time and

18:03

like we would both go after each other

18:05

and I remember like a couple memories come

18:07

to mind. I remember one was our very

18:10

first role. I remember it because the day

18:12

before you'd come in in a morning class

18:14

and rolled with my buddy Slater Chris who

18:16

was who was like he trained that morning

18:18

I didn't train he's like yeah I rolled

18:20

with Amsterdam and I was like the Amsterdam

18:23

this guy I haven't met before that everybody's

18:25

talked about him like he's back okay great

18:27

so then we rolled with each other it

18:29

was thinking it was like another morning or

18:31

whatever and I remember like like one of

18:34

the little like tags on my vitamins and

18:36

minerals geek came off when he was like

18:38

he was doing like a choke it was

18:40

like his his shin was across my face

18:42

and he's choking because I'm going like a

18:45

crazy wrestler spads and so he's got to

18:47

like literally like put me down to like

18:49

joke me and hold me and the little

18:51

tag came off I remember was like a

18:54

little souvenir for myself whatever right But

18:56

I mean they were they were they

18:58

were battles I mean like because again

19:00

back then Mike sort of facilitated that

19:02

where he trained a lot of us

19:04

and we were really we got really

19:06

tough because you know you're you're fighting

19:08

in the gym it wasn't just like

19:10

a nice smooth role it was like you're

19:12

trying to win round after round to

19:14

give people some context like it was

19:16

pretty much everything went except punches

19:19

it was like it was that for

19:21

it was ferocious It was like no,

19:23

it was just, I don't know, it's hard

19:25

to put into words because now

19:27

Jiu-Jitsu is like, it's being marketed

19:29

as, it's a family friendly art,

19:31

you know, and there's a lot

19:33

of, yeah, and I mean like,

19:35

but then, is it the best

19:37

way to train? I don't think

19:39

so. No. We got hurt tremendously.

19:42

Like I cannot extend my right

19:44

arm, like my right arm, I

19:46

can't fully extend it anymore. That's

19:48

thanks to training like that. getting

19:51

armbard and just slamming the way

19:53

out of stuff. Yeah, or like

19:55

just going absolutely balls to the

19:58

wall, but it was fun though. Yeah,

20:00

and it made you tough. But you

20:02

know, I think even like, you know,

20:04

and again, it was just a norm

20:06

back then, like, you know, we've had

20:08

several of the old Carlson guys on,

20:10

you know, the guys that train in

20:12

the original Carlson Senior Gym, and they

20:14

just killed each other. I mean, it

20:17

was a, it was a gym war

20:19

every day, and, you know, several of

20:21

the guys that have talked to, like,

20:23

like, you know, If he could go

20:25

back, he would train differently because he

20:27

would be able to, you know, you

20:29

know, wear his body out a little

20:31

bit slower because, you know, he said

20:33

he probably, you know, took a little

20:35

bit of, took some years off his

20:37

ability to be to train at a

20:39

certain pace and maybe compete because of

20:41

the way that he trained because he

20:43

trained so hard. And that was just,

20:46

that was what was normal back then.

20:48

I mean, this is still the. This

20:50

is still like the at the time

20:52

that you're coming late 90s early 2000s,

20:54

you know, no pain, no gain is

20:56

kind of the the model at least

20:58

in America. And then I remember in

21:00

like high school football. this is still

21:02

a time where like you would get

21:04

a concussion and you know they'd be

21:06

like all right you're running lapsed because

21:08

you're not you're not going hard enough

21:10

you're like whatever you say coach I

21:13

don't remember anything so it was just

21:15

a different time period it wasn't this

21:17

more I think thoughtful approach where you

21:19

sort of undulate between going really hard

21:21

and then having days where it's lighter

21:23

and more thoughtful maybe situational stuff that

21:25

kind of thing yeah and we we

21:27

we get people in there that would

21:29

just have a wrestling mentality and they

21:31

basically were told you can do whatever

21:33

you want just don't punch the other

21:35

guy and Mike would say like only

21:37

apply only choke holds right no arm

21:39

locks because resters won't tap they won't

21:42

recognize and you'll get it you'll injure

21:44

people Which is a smart rule. I'll

21:46

say to his credit, I still use

21:48

that one today, if I get a

21:50

brand new guy in who's maybe doing

21:52

his first full roll, you know, maybe

21:54

he's training with us for a couple

21:56

weeks, he's done some situational, now we're

21:58

going to graduate him to full rolling.

22:00

It's like we typically keep him in

22:02

like, all right, unless he's trained in

22:04

a particular arm lock, like just chokes

22:06

if you guys choke him just so

22:09

that you know there's no chance where

22:11

he might accidentally like arches back and

22:13

pop his arm or something right like

22:15

everybody knows when they're choked yeah well

22:17

yeah and like I ended up I

22:19

got my I think I got my

22:21

blue belt I got my blue belt

22:23

I got my blue belt for Mike

22:25

and then I moved back to to

22:27

the Netherlands because my relationship ended and

22:29

I started training with a Carson Gracie

22:31

Black belt Marcus Flasha and he was

22:33

I think it was a fourth degree

22:35

black belt at the time and I

22:38

think one of the highest ranking dudes

22:40

or at least one of the few

22:42

Brazilian teaching in the Netherlands. And he

22:44

also had a broken body. It had

22:46

herniated discs and he was all jacked

22:48

up, but he was really technical as

22:50

well. So, but that was kind of

22:52

like, I saw him struggle with his

22:54

back and with his knee, and I'm

22:56

thinking, I don't want that. I mean,

22:58

I want to train really hard, but

23:00

train really smart at the same time.

23:02

So I started doing yoga and mobility

23:05

work pretty early on, I think. I've

23:07

been doing yoga consistently for like 15

23:09

years now and I think that has

23:11

kept me safe and I've also grown

23:13

less of a ego so I tap

23:15

a lot quicker now I just don't

23:17

care I really don't I could give

23:19

a zero F's about about people tapping

23:21

me out as like there's more to

23:23

life than that you know yeah but

23:25

but but to see to see like

23:27

the older generation Carlson guys that come

23:29

into our gym often because they have

23:32

when they have layovers whatever they come

23:34

in by and they teach class all

23:36

of them have broken bodies you know

23:38

from from just years of abuse and

23:40

challenge fights and gyms and whatnot and

23:42

I didn't want that so I try

23:44

to keep myself spry I'm 40 45

23:46

now so but I'm still flexible and

23:48

I can move so that that's that's

23:50

but yeah and strength training as well

23:52

that's really important to do that for

23:54

like general just injury prevention mostly not

23:56

to get jacked but just to maintain

23:58

joint stability yeah Yeah. What did you, what

24:01

was your intention when you started training?

24:03

I mean, you already had some martial

24:05

arts background, but when I started, I

24:07

started Mike's gym as well, but it

24:09

was in 2008, so Chu was already

24:11

gone. So I was there for a

24:14

couple years and then I ended up

24:16

training with Chui. So. Right. Right. you know

24:18

when I even when I got there

24:20

in like 2008 it was still kind

24:22

of that MMA mentality especially a Mike's

24:24

gym it was more like an MMA

24:26

gym like you're there not really for

24:28

purely Jiu-Jitsu you're there to actually fight

24:30

I never end up fighting I wasn't

24:32

well kind of so it kind of

24:34

shifted so like when when when Daniel

24:36

and I were first starting, it was

24:38

like a strictly BJJ Jim and like

24:41

we would we would have guys fight

24:43

occasionally and we would have people that

24:45

would come in from MMA backgrounds to

24:47

train with us, but we were BJJJJ

24:49

guys, we competed in Jiu, that was

24:51

the focus. And then it shifted in

24:54

2006, 2007 because that was when all

24:56

of a sudden these MMA fights started

24:58

popping up all over the place. And

25:00

then it was like, you had a

25:03

little, a little. Padre of really tough

25:05

little grapplers and then it was like let's

25:07

just let them loose on this amateur scene

25:09

in fighting and then we would just all

25:11

we all sort of fighting and then the

25:13

gym became more of a fighting gym than

25:15

just a pure grappling gym. Yeah, I think

25:17

more people were probably fought in when I

25:19

was there at least half and half. It

25:21

wasn't a big gym at all. You know,

25:23

it was a very small gym. But what

25:25

was your intention when you started like why

25:28

did you just decide to start Jiu jissu?

25:30

I was always like a lifelong martial

25:32

artist. I started judo as a

25:34

little kid. I did that for

25:36

a couple of years and then

25:38

I started doing Japanese jitsu and

25:40

with a, which is kind of

25:42

like that, that hybrid style of

25:44

judo and karate, point fighting karate

25:46

and grappling. But I was always

25:48

interested and I heard about that

25:51

there was this challenge fight going

25:53

on with different styles competing and

25:55

that was the UFC. But I

25:57

had, the first thing that I actually saw.

26:00

wasn't, I knew that it was

26:02

Jiu-Jitsu and that Jiu-Jitsu beat the

26:04

other guys. But I thought, I

26:06

did Jiu-Jitsu, of course, of course

26:08

I'm going to beat him. I

26:10

have the best style, but that

26:12

was the Japanese style, the sport

26:14

Jiu-Jitsu style, and it wasn't Gracie,

26:16

Jiu-Jitsu, Brazil Jiu-Jitsu. And I thought,

26:18

okay, maybe it's different, and I

26:20

tried to find... tried to find

26:22

instruction I couldn't find anybody to

26:24

teach me and I found one

26:26

actually one tape of Hanzo Gracie

26:28

competing at the WCC which it

26:30

was a strange format it was

26:32

a no NHB competition in a

26:34

cage and he fought a Dutch

26:37

a Dutch judo guy and I

26:39

knew the guy it was Ben

26:41

Spikers and he was a well-known

26:43

ferocious judo competitor and Hanzo beat

26:45

the crap out of him stepped

26:47

on his neck it was just

26:49

horrendous just completely choked him out

26:51

and like okay so I guess

26:53

presented this is his definitely legit,

26:55

but I couldn't find anywhere to

26:57

train. So when I met my

26:59

American ex, I moved to Louisville

27:01

or I started visiting there and

27:03

I thought, well, maybe there's a

27:05

gym in Louisville and I just

27:07

so happened to find a flyer

27:09

somewhere. Someone handed me a flyer

27:11

of a Carlson Gracie logo because

27:14

I think they were under Carlson

27:16

Gracie at the time with a

27:18

bunch of names, Mike and Colin

27:20

and Kyle. and a number and

27:22

an address and I just went

27:24

there. But I wanted to learn

27:26

because I was just like, I

27:28

thought this is probably really efficient

27:30

stuff if they can compete with

27:32

all these different styles and Jitsu

27:34

wins effortlessly. And I saw Henzo

27:36

beat the crap out of Ben

27:38

Spikers who was a national or

27:40

maybe European judo champion and just

27:42

absolutely demolished him. I think there's

27:44

something to this. And I was

27:46

just always into grappling and wrestling

27:49

and rolling around. but my my

27:51

style was very wild, but I

27:53

had some athleticism and so I

27:55

picked up on Brazil. quick. Another

27:57

thing I did was I took

27:59

notes because I was only there

28:01

a couple of months at a

28:03

time so I took a notebook

28:05

to class and I always took

28:07

notes because I wanted to bring

28:09

it home to me and train

28:11

back home and I got some

28:13

people to train with some friends

28:15

and garages and stuff and at

28:17

some other kickboxing gyms and I

28:19

started training that way. But I

28:21

wanted to learn because I thought

28:23

this is just probably the most

28:26

efficient stuff you can do when

28:28

it comes to ground fighting. And

28:30

yeah, that was it. It was

28:32

just, I was hooked. And it's

28:34

just so much fun, you know,

28:36

it's physical chess. It's problem solving

28:38

under stress with dire consequences. It's

28:40

just something I enjoy. So yeah.

28:42

With your training now, because obviously,

28:44

you know, you were mentioning it

28:46

earlier that you've gotten older here

28:48

in your mid 40s now, you

28:50

know, for people getting into it.

28:52

What are recommendations that you have

28:54

for say older grapplers who are

28:56

trying to train for longevity versus

28:58

train for just, you know, competitive

29:01

elements? Because I think, you know,

29:03

any of us that have stuck

29:05

around for long enough, you know,

29:07

and you start to read, like

29:09

you said, read the writing on

29:11

the wall with all the older

29:13

guys, you kind of start to

29:15

know, oh, this is, I'm gonna

29:17

have to make this transition where

29:19

you train for winning or whatever

29:21

that. is that you're after versus

29:23

training for longevity so that you

29:25

can keep going for a long

29:27

period of time. So what are

29:29

the things that you think would

29:31

be useful for someone who's training

29:33

for longevity in Jiu? I think

29:35

one thing is really something that's

29:38

not really talked about as much,

29:40

but it's about learning to say

29:42

no to roles. When somebody asks

29:44

you to roll, you can sometimes

29:46

just say, look, no, man, you're

29:48

way too strong or you're way

29:50

too aggressive for me. Are you're

29:52

going to crush me? Because I

29:54

have to work tomorrow. And as

29:56

a man, sometimes you have to

29:58

check your ego, but actually it's

30:00

smarter. It's like to say, look,

30:02

no, I'm not comfortable doing that.

30:04

And, you know, that's not something

30:06

that I would. have said when

30:08

I started training it wasn't that

30:10

wasn't condoned that sort of thing

30:13

but I think you have to

30:15

prioritize your own safety if you

30:17

see like a hyper aggressive purple

30:19

belt competitor and you're a recreational

30:21

dad you're not you're if you're

30:23

not comfortable just don't learn to

30:25

say no tap quick and that's

30:27

one thing and you should also

30:29

just try to make it as

30:31

fun and experience as possible so

30:33

it should be like learning should

30:35

be fun. I would only focus

30:37

on stuff that would translate into

30:39

all the, like, make your digit

30:41

as broad as possible, not get

30:43

caught up in all the intricacies

30:45

of like the latest matrix inversion,

30:47

super se and hadu can guard,

30:50

but make it as as solid

30:52

as sit. as basic as possible.

30:54

Sure. In that you're able to

30:56

translate and also play in different

30:58

domains. So play gee, no gee.

31:00

Maybe sometimes also try and see

31:02

what happens when you open it

31:04

like with slaps, for instance, not

31:06

to beat each other up, but

31:08

just to see what would happen,

31:10

where are you open if you

31:12

are in a fight, you know,

31:14

to not your face completely opened,

31:16

and if you're growing exposed. So

31:18

for me, I've tried to... get

31:20

my duties as broad as possible

31:22

so I can play in all

31:24

these different domains and pick your

31:27

training partners really wisely because and

31:29

make sure and then you know

31:31

accept the fact that you're gonna

31:33

people think you're a coward you

31:35

know you have work tomorrow you

31:37

have other priorities and it's more

31:39

can if you have to take

31:41

time off the map because you

31:43

got your neck cranked really bad

31:45

by some wild testosterone film 17

31:47

year old like chewy was back

31:49

in the day you were still

31:51

young too I was 20 something

31:53

I was yeah yeah but I

31:55

was but I was but I

31:57

was have been a terrible training

31:59

partner for anyone that wanted to

32:02

go a little slower because I

32:04

didn't, but because I didn't get

32:06

it, you know, and I think

32:08

part of that, and tell me

32:10

what you think about this, like the

32:12

old environment that we had, there's a

32:14

lot of things that I owe to

32:16

it because of, you know, the toughness

32:18

and grittiness that it instilled, right? I

32:20

think it, you know, helped, you help make

32:22

me a good competitor. At the same time,

32:25

one of the things that I don't

32:27

think was ideal was that when we

32:29

were training, it wasn't what I would

32:31

consider training out. To me, I would

32:33

consider competing because like every day we

32:35

would step on the mats, we would

32:37

be basically fighting to win to beat

32:39

each other. And I were like, we

32:41

always do that in the gym, but

32:43

there's still like. If you start to develop

32:45

this sort of like you're talking about

32:48

this zero Fs about actually winning, it's

32:50

like you can train for skill, you

32:52

can train to improve, you can train

32:54

to win, but at the same time,

32:56

it's not like a gym war. And

32:58

I remember like you and I, for

33:00

instance, I remember the, you know, I

33:02

don't know why all this stuff just

33:04

stands out to me, but I remember there was one

33:07

day where I had armed barred you one night. I

33:09

think it was the first time ever, right. The first

33:11

time I met, like, you know, because again, for me,

33:13

at the time, Amsterdam is like better than me, he's

33:15

the white rabbit. So I'm like, I'm chasing after him.

33:17

And so I remember the very first time I armbar them.

33:19

If you want to know what happened, I remember it's so

33:21

clearly, I'm inside full guard, I'm trying to work my full guard,

33:23

he looks away for a second, I go for the armbar. So

33:25

wasn't even a good clean armbar as like I really

33:28

got, I really got him, I really got him, like,

33:30

I really got him, like, like, I really got him,

33:32

like, like, like, like, I got him, like, like, like,

33:34

like, like, like, I got him, like, like, like, like,

33:36

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

33:38

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

33:41

like, the next morning we came in for a training

33:43

session, I remember he was like, man, I couldn't sleep

33:45

all night, it's like that damn arm bar, you know,

33:47

whatever. And so in that situation, I think about sometimes

33:49

that it's really hard to explore and play and even

33:51

dial back your game sometimes if you're training in that

33:53

kind of environment. And so I think now like what

33:56

I try to do is like, and I'm sure maybe

33:58

you have some thoughts on this as a black. who's

34:00

coached people and taught people is, I like

34:02

to have environments where here's our general

34:04

training room and training environment where we're playing,

34:06

we're adapting, we're exploring, we're testing things

34:08

out. It's the laboratory, right? And then over

34:10

here periodically, we might have a very

34:12

intense competition setting where we're like, maybe it's

34:14

a mock tournament, maybe it's something else,

34:16

but this is the more intense setting where

34:18

we are now trying to win and

34:20

this is trying to mimic what you might

34:23

have in a competition and we have

34:25

that space and depending on who you are,

34:27

where you're at, you may not want

34:29

to be in this space, so you don't

34:31

have to go there. So trying to

34:33

give people options because I think, if any

34:35

of us are going to stick in

34:37

it for the long term, even if you're

34:39

a 17 -year -old spaz like I was

34:41

and who's hopped up on caffeine and whatever

34:43

supplements were out at the time, you

34:45

want to eventually, you want to be able

34:47

to dial it back so that you

34:49

can make your game better, but also too,

34:52

so you can show some courtesy to

34:54

the people that are a little bit older

34:56

because when you're in their seat, when

34:58

you're a little bit older, you're going to

35:00

want someone to say, hey, could you

35:02

just take it easy in my neck today

35:04

so I don't have to quit training

35:06

or whatever. So what are your thoughts on

35:08

that as far as training? Creating an

35:10

environment that facilitates both good learning but also

35:12

to, you can have that competitive element

35:14

but not too much. Yeah, that's a beautiful

35:16

way to do it, but

35:19

then you'd have to schedule

35:21

different classes obviously, but if you

35:23

have a big enough school,

35:26

you can cater to those populations

35:28

as you wish, but what

35:30

I prefer to do is what

35:32

I teach is that I

35:34

want the people that come into

35:36

my class, when I teach,

35:38

to do as much jiu -jitsu

35:40

as humanly possible within the hour

35:42

a half that I have

35:44

them. So I let them do

35:46

very specific combative

35:49

drills with a clear goal

35:51

with winners and losers, but they

35:53

are immediately doing technique, but

35:55

they are fighting really hard, but

35:57

they are only fighting in

36:00

an area that I've designed for them

36:02

to fighting. Sure, so you control the

36:04

variables. Yeah, just you just have to

36:07

break this grip. That's the game. And

36:09

then you can go balls to the

36:11

wall doing whatever, but as soon as

36:13

you progress, no, stop, reset. And that's

36:15

that's kind of like a part of

36:18

the what the hold the whole big

36:20

deal now is with with ecological training.

36:22

It's the it's the CLA approach, which

36:24

again, people have used in some fashion

36:26

with wrestling for a long. Yeah, but

36:28

we did, we did similar things like

36:31

that as well. Like you, you, even

36:33

back then at the powerhouse gym, because

36:35

we would have drills like you fight

36:37

until you get your half guard smashed,

36:39

reset, or you can only do,

36:42

you can only finish by arm lock.

36:44

And it wasn't as constrained as it,

36:46

as it, as it should be, but

36:48

it was already kind of like, specific

36:50

games where you can go, you can

36:53

go really hard. Almost competition level

36:55

extremity, but you cannot progress

36:57

from there. You only train

36:59

that specific area and then

37:01

you combine it into a technique.

37:03

Sure. And that is something that I

37:06

prefer. I don't prefer to split classes.

37:08

This is going to be a hardcore

37:10

competition class and this is going to

37:12

be a technical class because I don't

37:14

teach that often. So when I teach, I

37:17

want the people to do as

37:19

much judjitsu as humanly possible. I

37:21

don't do jumping jacks. I don't

37:23

barely do a warm-up. The

37:25

technique is the warm-up. You

37:27

are already in there. And I

37:30

expect you to be a little

37:32

bit loose, shake your body loose,

37:34

and then go. And that is

37:37

also a way to make it

37:39

really enjoyable for everybody there. And

37:41

also for the top, for

37:43

the really advanced guys, they get

37:46

put in positions where they will

37:48

lose. So it forces you even

37:51

the good guys to be really

37:53

sharp on the fence or to

37:55

train the specific game, specific skill,

37:58

and that makes it scalable. because

38:00

you can you can you can you

38:02

can put a really good guy in

38:04

a position where he's most likely going

38:06

to lose and he will learn from

38:08

that it'll be frustrating but he'll break

38:11

the ego a little bit break the

38:13

ego up so they're not so like

38:15

resistant towards losing like hey this is

38:17

part of it but the end of

38:19

the story at the end of all

38:21

that training and all that it's progressive

38:23

training little little battles that you fight

38:25

I want you to do this and

38:28

you want to resist what I'm trying

38:30

to do At the end everybody has

38:32

already had a really good workout with

38:34

a lot of jjitsu and then there

38:36

is actual sparring and the sparring usually

38:38

I let them start in the position

38:40

that we just covered and then you

38:43

can do whatever you want but we

38:45

are going to start in half guard

38:47

and if you decide to stand up

38:49

and wrestle jitsu your way through it

38:51

perfect if you decide to go to

38:53

your other guard but the reference point

38:55

is the technique we just did and

38:57

then the last 10 minutes is just

39:00

free for all, do what you want.

39:02

So then you basically remove constraints as

39:04

you progress through the training and that

39:06

makes it scalable. And the hobbyist practitioner

39:08

can go 95% through the class and

39:10

fight with competition level purple belts. They

39:12

might even tap the competition level purple

39:14

belt because he was designed to play

39:17

a game where they were on the

39:19

neck. He was already locked in with

39:21

the triangle. So he has that success.

39:23

right and he might he or she

39:25

might bow out for the last 10

39:27

minutes where they go absolutely eight or

39:29

they decide to go to the other

39:32

side of the room and keep on

39:34

training as they were so that makes

39:36

it scalable and that makes it really

39:38

enjoyable for for hobbyists and people who

39:40

really want to sharpen their defense and

39:42

do competition because you're doing the same

39:44

games and that is one way I

39:46

try to cater to that yeah I

39:49

agree that's it's a good it's a

39:51

good idea I like using a lot

39:53

of different situational like work like live

39:55

work and trying to mix it in

39:57

so in when I was kind of

39:59

like so just clear. when I was

40:01

talking about creating different places and environments,

40:04

it's not to say that like, you know, every

40:06

gym has people that are training with the competitors

40:08

that never compete a day in their life. and

40:10

they're 100% responsible for helping the competitors get better,

40:12

right? So you have those people there. It's just

40:15

like, if I'm gonna, like for instance, if I'm

40:17

going to have a, if I'm gonna start picking

40:19

people out and say, okay, you too, you start

40:21

from the feet, like everybody's watching, you're now going

40:23

against each other, we're doing ADCC rules, whatever, I'm

40:26

not gonna do that on my Wednesday class, which

40:28

is like, hey, we have new people coming in,

40:30

right, right? But I really like that idea of

40:32

the idea of the really like that idea of

40:34

the really rolling where you control the

40:36

variables and like you said anybody of

40:39

any skill can roll with each other

40:41

and at the same time like you

40:43

said if anybody has any resistances towards

40:45

losing putting them in a situation where

40:47

you're the likelihood that you're gonna get

40:49

submitted or quote lose is really high

40:51

helps kind of break the break that

40:53

spirit so to speak so that you

40:55

can actually be a little bit more

40:58

receptive to what's happening opposed to trying

41:00

to always win every single round. Yeah

41:02

because I mean like eventually like eventually

41:04

like I think that is also a

41:07

way to kind of gauge whether somebody's

41:09

training with right intentions in the sense

41:11

that they are a valuable training

41:13

partner. And you will always have

41:15

the occasional douche bag that will

41:18

flow through and will still be in

41:20

their gym and you'd have to deal

41:22

with it. But I think it does

41:24

force even the good people, like the

41:26

people that are that are that are.

41:28

competitive and win a lot of tournaments,

41:31

it forces them to kind of like,

41:33

okay, accept the fact that you're going

41:35

to lose, but that's okay, you

41:37

know, and you know, that it

41:39

filters out some of the more

41:41

toxic behavior, I think. If you're

41:43

already at a starting point where

41:45

everybody's already going to lose, because

41:47

I've designed the game in such a

41:49

way that you will probably lose.

41:52

But... you'll lose while you're going to resist

41:54

you're going to you can resist a hundred

41:56

percent intensity and that is the intensity that

41:58

sometimes with the more traditional Brazil Jiu-Jitsu

42:01

gyms, they lack that intensity. It

42:03

becomes almost like training kata, you

42:05

know, you do this, you do

42:07

that, and that is just the

42:09

death of all martial arts when

42:11

you start to standardized techniques in

42:13

like a sequence that you have

42:15

to memorize, that's just absolute death,

42:17

you know, it's not alive as

42:19

they say. So that is a

42:21

one way to keep that, that

42:23

furious energy that... alive without people

42:25

getting getting getting getting hurt. So

42:27

if you have like so it's

42:29

kind of nice contrast of gym

42:31

environment right where you start a

42:33

training versus the environment that you

42:35

have in your classes as far

42:38

as like cultivating that really good

42:40

gym environment and we like getting

42:42

those bad apples or controlling them

42:44

that's one way what are some

42:46

other ways if there's somebody in

42:48

your gym that you feel like

42:50

is just not a good fit?

42:52

How do you go about dealing

42:54

with that? Well usually but I'm

42:56

not I'm not the one that

42:58

is responsible for like the entire

43:00

gym policy But when I when

43:02

it's when it's my ship People

43:04

get get two warnings because the

43:06

first the first if you get

43:08

a new person in that doesn't

43:10

know anything They die you know

43:12

you already know who they are

43:14

I'm watching them They get two

43:17

warnings and the third one is

43:19

like you you'll go so you

43:21

have to go someplace else. This

43:23

is not the place for you

43:25

But it's just, it's just, yeah,

43:27

you always have your enforcers. You

43:29

have a few guys that you

43:31

know that can handle a spas.

43:33

And so the first couple of

43:35

rows are with the enforcers, but

43:37

the enforcers will just box them

43:39

in if I get a strange

43:41

vibe from them. And yeah, but

43:43

I think the cool thing is

43:45

about our gym and I think

43:47

it's, you just just matured a

43:49

lot. And I think there are

43:51

just a lot of really professional

43:53

people training Jiu-Jitsu, people who have

43:56

like college degrees, their engineers, whatever.

43:58

So these people also have people.

44:00

So it's not just a rack

44:02

tag bunch of misfits training together

44:04

in a garage. These are

44:06

just highly educated people from

44:08

all levels of society or

44:10

like you can be a

44:12

bricklayer but still be like a

44:15

really solid dude. And because

44:17

it's just such a nice

44:19

blend of everyday society norms

44:21

that aren't acceptable

44:23

outside of the gym

44:25

shouldn't be acceptable inside

44:27

the gym. And nowadays. people will call,

44:29

other toxic behavior, will call it

44:31

out. And it's a good thing

44:33

because Brazil Jitsu was very much

44:35

ismo, very, you know, it was just pretty

44:37

rough, you know, it was a rough, you

44:39

know, it was a rough environment. Nowadays, it

44:42

reflects more the people that

44:44

are there, reflects more of the

44:46

general society. And I think people

44:48

call each other out on asshole

44:50

behavior. And I think that's a

44:52

good thing. It doesn't necessarily even

44:54

have to be the instructor. that

44:56

sets the standard. The standards and

44:58

forces itself because people are already

45:00

in tune. Yeah, I agree. I think

45:02

I think the leadership, the black belt, whomever

45:04

it is, they sort of set the

45:07

tone and then after everybody is kind

45:09

of in line with that tone, then

45:11

it sort of self regulates itself, right?

45:13

And then everybody kind of just birds

45:15

of a feather at that point. You

45:18

said a couple of things that I

45:20

thought were interesting, things that like I

45:22

think about. Some of it, like I

45:24

guess, could be considered slightly controversial, but

45:27

I doubt that you do anything crazy,

45:29

but your ideas of enforcers, right? So

45:31

I've talked about the idea of enforcers

45:33

on my YouTube channel and stuff before

45:35

in podcasts. What are your thoughts on

45:38

enforcers? Like, how do you go about

45:40

using them? What is their purpose? That

45:42

kind of thing. Yeah. Well, just to

45:45

give you the general idea. And enforcers

45:47

could used to be the guy that

45:49

would beat up. people who

45:51

were obnoxious, who would just

45:54

get the green light to

45:56

break something. Those people used

45:58

to be... that was the

46:01

role now now the enforcer what

46:03

I what I would see it's

46:05

just somebody who is just so

46:08

good but has control and he

46:10

can he or she can box

46:12

somebody in so the enforcer is

46:15

not there to hurt the enforcer

46:17

is just a gift wrap you

46:20

and hold somebody down if they

46:22

are crossing the line and people

46:24

get warnings before that but the

46:27

enforcer is just somebody who has

46:29

the skill and the maturity to

46:31

use the skill wisely to use

46:34

the skill wisely to use the

46:36

skill wisely So it's not a

46:39

loose cannon. It's not a shark.

46:41

It's not my pit bull that

46:43

I sick on you Yeah, it

46:46

is the mature sometimes older grappler

46:48

who's been around is one bunch

46:50

of competitions who's usually pretty strong

46:53

Or but but I have but

46:55

there's also there's women in our

46:57

gym that can also be enforced

47:00

because they're just vicious, you know,

47:02

but that's a different story, but

47:05

if you want to break the

47:07

ego you go roll with the

47:09

little Our little purple belt and

47:12

she will choke your head off

47:14

your head off your face But

47:16

usually that tone, if they are...

47:19

have some people skills some social

47:21

skills people will pick up on

47:24

that and sometimes you get the

47:26

occasional person who's on the spectrum

47:28

or who is just out of

47:31

the out of their minds and

47:33

they get get told to kind

47:35

of leave and not come back

47:38

you know but those are very

47:40

few and far between you know

47:43

this usually when you have a

47:45

somebody who's just unassuming account of

47:47

looking dude who will just completely

47:50

shut your game down that's enough

47:52

Well, and I think that's so

47:54

kind of going to the idea

47:57

of using live training situations to

47:59

teach. Right? You're

48:01

trying to give someone that intuitive

48:03

feeling, right? Because we know with techniques,

48:05

you can watch something. You can

48:08

watch an instructional, you can watch a

48:10

match. You can, whatever. You can

48:12

watch your coach demonstrate something. But until

48:14

you've actually felt it used like

48:16

successfully and sort of how that

48:18

works, you don't really know it like, you know

48:20

that it exists, but you don't know it in

48:22

the sense of actually having any use of it.

48:24

And that same sort of feeling idea, right? That's

48:26

where the, where I sort of think of as

48:28

an enforcer. Or if you have someone who, like

48:30

you said, isn't, doesn't need to be kicked out

48:32

because there's those people where you get rid of

48:35

them right really quickly, but they don't need to

48:37

be kicked out. And you'd

48:39

like to keep them around, but they're exhibiting

48:41

like certain behaviors. Like maybe they're a little too

48:43

rough sometimes or whatever might be. Yeah. Then

48:45

you simply just give the enforcer for me. And

48:47

I sort of like thinking about is giving

48:49

them like, get, like you say, you gift wrap

48:51

them and you put them in a really

48:53

bad spot. You just let them feel a feeling,

48:55

so to speak, right? So like that it's

48:57

like, Oh, okay. Like, like if

48:59

you're trying to tell someone, Hey, like be

49:01

easy on that person over there, that

49:03

your 250 pounds and that person's 110 pounds,

49:05

be easy on them. And they're not.

49:07

Then you're like, well, like then you put

49:09

them in a really bad position. You're

49:11

like, well, this is what this feels like.

49:13

You're 250 pounds. You've probably never experienced

49:16

that kind of pressure before. Here's what that

49:18

is. So maybe this helps you. But

49:20

then obviously you educate, but I thought there

49:22

was a, as you were saying that

49:24

I was just thinking about that idea as

49:26

the enforcer. Yeah. I usually sometimes I

49:28

do it too. Sometimes I roll with

49:30

those people because yeah, I sometimes

49:32

I want to see that kind of

49:34

manic energy would be the kind of

49:36

energy that you'd get in like

49:38

in an altercation with a person who doesn't

49:40

know how to fight, but who's going to lose

49:42

his mind if you get a road rage or

49:44

whatever. That same manic energy, sometimes it's nice to

49:46

feel it because it is able to catch you.

49:48

It will catch you off guard sometimes. So it's

49:50

nice to feel that. But what I do is

49:52

like, I get them in like

49:54

a side control position or

49:57

like a crushing position and I just

49:59

hold them. But unless they

50:01

and they do absolutely do

50:03

nothing else note submit just

50:05

hold them and to make sure that

50:07

like you are completely boxed in

50:09

I could do anything to you

50:11

right now but I'm not but I'm just

50:14

making you feel like you it's like

50:16

it's like a baby you know

50:18

yeah so that that is

50:20

sometimes humiliating enough an educational

50:22

it's an educational thing you

50:24

know all right. Well, I mean, like,

50:26

you, I'm sure you had that experience.

50:29

You started Jiu-Jitsu, and I mean, I

50:31

had this experience. You go in and

50:33

you get completely controlled effortlessly by this

50:36

person. And, you know, people have two

50:38

reactions to that. They either run away or

50:40

they say, what is this? Let me learn.

50:42

You know, and so sometimes that's a

50:44

great feeling where you get controlled to

50:46

the point where this person feels like

50:48

some wizard that's just holding you down

50:50

and. the whatever lessons you have to deliver

50:53

later on are they're very receptive to it

50:55

because it's like the ground's been tilled and

50:57

it's ready to be the seas are ready

50:59

to be planted afterwards yeah yeah and sometimes

51:02

you'd have people like well it's because of

51:04

the gee because I can't I say okay

51:06

take the gee off then we'll do the

51:08

same thing so that's that's like the that's the

51:10

extra thing that you can say well it's

51:12

because of the gee I don't know how

51:14

to deal with the with the grips with

51:16

the grips with the grips But yeah, but

51:18

I think that thing you said about, like,

51:20

it's either that you go like, this is

51:22

bullshit, I'm out the door, or this is awesome, I

51:25

want to learn it. That is already a

51:27

signing point in your character, if you're

51:29

willing to learn. And if you're willing

51:31

to learn, then you have an open

51:33

mind and you're less more receptive on

51:36

what's going on. Usually the people that.

51:38

run out are the people that will

51:40

bat mouth jujitsu or say it's sports

51:42

all bullshit or it's marketing or whatever

51:44

so they have no hands-on experience because

51:47

they're afraid of getting humbled. Well what

51:49

do you think about kind of when

51:51

you started to now like the evolution

51:53

of Jujitsu is is there anything that

51:55

surprised you about the direction Jujitsu

51:58

has has gone or did you expect to

52:00

be, you know, where people are

52:02

making money, you know, competing and

52:04

just, it's coming more mainstream. This

52:06

is coming from a guy who's

52:08

like my main, my main, my

52:10

main knowledge in Jiu-Jitsu was, was

52:13

training with you guys, with Mike

52:15

and reading grappling magazine. This was

52:17

before YouTube. So like, I would

52:19

read and I would study techniques

52:21

from books. I have a whole

52:23

pile of books here with hens

52:26

or Gracie books and John Dana

52:28

Grace. highly guarded secrets and you'd

52:30

have to go through the motions

52:32

to learn stuff from people. Now

52:34

it just, it's exploded and thank

52:36

God because of the internet, there's

52:38

so much good stuff out there.

52:41

Then the problem is like there

52:43

is literally so much out there

52:45

that it's a complete overkill. So

52:47

to learn Jiu Jitsu now is

52:49

probably the best time to learn

52:51

it. However, to find, to really

52:54

know what is valuable and what

52:56

is fluff. it's going to be

52:58

a little bit different. But I

53:00

really enjoy, I really love that

53:02

the nogi, at one point the

53:04

nogi went completely the other way

53:06

with the EBI stuff and people

53:09

were doing stuff that you would

53:11

never do in the traditional sense

53:13

or they would just pull mount,

53:15

get the guy to mount on

53:17

you so you can do a

53:19

keeping escape into a leglock. That

53:22

is just so, but that is

53:24

poetry in the sense that because

53:26

you completely. destroy the positional hierarchy

53:28

idea that you started with, that

53:30

you don't go, you don't give

53:32

bad positions. But it's so cool

53:34

to see with the submission grappling

53:37

that it's completely turned on its

53:39

head. And so that is really,

53:41

that's something that would never thought

53:43

that would, I would never in

53:45

my right mind would pull mount

53:47

so I can get a leg

53:50

lock and win. It's just bizarre.

53:52

And I think it's also, I

53:54

think, I think the health, but

53:56

I think the healthiest aspect is

53:58

if people keep on. going back

54:00

to MMA, it'll keep Jiu-Jitsu

54:03

relatively honest. Because

54:05

sometimes you just have to

54:07

cut the fluff and go

54:09

back to just, you know,

54:11

face-punched Jiu-Jitsu in the sense, because

54:14

it's just so much fun. And

54:16

then you also see like a

54:18

lot of stuff just is not

54:20

applicable anymore. So I think it's

54:22

coming, it's always like a psych,

54:25

like a spiral, you get like

54:27

a new... high technique. It goes back,

54:29

it goes back out of

54:32

style, somebody rediscovers it, and

54:34

it's continuously turning and

54:36

progressing. So, but yeah, you know,

54:38

nobody could make money with from

54:41

Jitsu. Nobody. All the instructors

54:43

were broke, they had day jobs, they

54:45

couldn't live, and you know, you,

54:47

you, you're an example of this

54:49

now, Chewy, like, this is your, this

54:52

is your profession, that's awesome. We

54:54

never thought that would happen,

54:56

really. Absolutely not zero.

54:58

I think if I would have stayed

55:01

in the States though, with a

55:03

turn of faith, I probably would

55:05

have maybe opened the gym

55:07

with you. I was thinking about

55:09

that. Because we got along, you

55:11

know. I might have fallen out

55:13

with some people here and there,

55:15

but you know. But now it's

55:17

just unthinkable to think

55:19

of like the, you know, the

55:22

scumbags that we were. friendly scumbags

55:24

friendly scumbags, but I wouldn't say

55:26

I was a scumbag. I was

55:28

just a really aggressive insecure young

55:30

guy. I think, you know, sometimes

55:32

people come into because I was

55:34

like a really, I was like

55:36

a very clean, like clean cut,

55:38

like, you know, very nice young

55:40

guy who basically kept his nose clean

55:42

and lived the straight and narrow path,

55:44

right? But the other side was that

55:47

when I was in the gym training,

55:49

I was basically fueled by like trauma

55:51

in my past so anytime someone locked

55:53

up with me was like my body

55:55

was like fighter flight was going nuts

55:57

giving off that manic energy and then

55:59

I was so scared to lose at

56:01

anything because whatever whatever fragile little ego

56:03

I had came from wrestling and grappling

56:06

where it was like I'm finally good

56:08

at something in my life so I'm

56:10

clinging to this thing and if I

56:13

lose then I'm not good anymore and

56:15

that was really tough and it took

56:17

me a while to break of that

56:20

but I wouldn't say I was a

56:22

scumbag just a just a shidded yeah

56:24

but maybe not a scumbag. I rolled

56:27

like one, I was nice afterwards, but

56:29

I rolled like a dick. Yeah, yeah,

56:31

yeah, yeah. No, but it's just so

56:34

fun to see all these different, I

56:36

mean, it's become a really professional thing,

56:38

and sometimes I feel like I was

56:41

maybe a little bit ahead of the

56:43

curve in a sense that there weren't

56:45

that many people doing Jiu-Jitsu in Holland,

56:48

but I sort of, I never really

56:50

pursued it as a professional avenue, I

56:52

guess. And sometimes I think, maybe I

56:55

can see if I can do it

56:57

a little bit more, because I just

56:59

do it recreationally, you know, but I've

57:02

been, it was really fun. I've been,

57:04

I've been going to globe trotters, PGJ

57:06

globe trotters camps and teaching there, do

57:09

once, one or two camps a year.

57:11

I've been doing that all the time

57:13

and that's been really fun. And actually

57:16

I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to

57:18

Pennsylvania to, to teach a seminar seminar

57:20

at my friends at my friends at

57:23

the invertegear, inverted gear academy. in Allentown

57:25

for a week. I'm going to teach

57:27

a summer there. And I'm also going

57:30

to go to New Haven Connecticut to

57:32

teach at Soul Craft BTJ with my

57:34

friend Brad Wolfson, who I, all these

57:37

people I know from Goldtrotters Camp, so

57:39

I'm going to go back to the

57:41

States after 2005. I left in 2005.

57:44

I'm going to go back. Is that

57:46

your first time back in the States?

57:48

Yeah, it's going to be mental. Oh

57:51

wow, I didn't realize it was your,

57:53

for some reason I figured you'd been

57:55

back at some point. No, no, no,

57:58

no. First time back in 20 years.

58:00

A lot of change in that country,

58:02

I hear. Yes and no man. It's

58:05

like, I don't know dude, it's like

58:07

from the outside, obviously when you look

58:09

at the outside, like I'm sure from

58:12

the news, and even for us on

58:14

the inside, you watch the news and

58:16

it's like, you watch the news and

58:19

it's like, you watch the news and

58:21

it seems like it's whatever, like, at

58:23

least my day to day experience when

58:26

I go to stores, when I go

58:28

like, everybody's all right. anything that would

58:30

make me think anything differently than it

58:32

was like 20 years ago, the only

58:34

differences that everybody's like necks are craning

58:36

down at their phones when they're in

58:38

public, but you know, other than that,

58:40

I mean, it's weird. I feel like,

58:42

I feel like, I feel like so

58:44

much of the media is basically pushing

58:47

some idea on people and then you

58:49

have a loud sort of minority on

58:51

both sides of this political aisle that

58:53

we have in our country and then

58:55

everybody sees this so much and they

58:57

begin to think it's true. Even though

58:59

if you go outside in real

59:01

life for just a few minutes,

59:03

it's like it sort of sort

59:06

of clears away that idea because

59:08

you know Most Americans aren't crazy

59:10

fanatics and we're generally nice people

59:12

people just want to live their

59:14

lives man. It's that's it It

59:16

becomes it becomes just as strange.

59:19

It's kind of like yeah, I

59:21

meant that like when I lived in

59:23

the States, I thought people were

59:25

extremely friendly extremely courteous But I'm

59:28

a fact, you know, and even

59:30

back then, there was also, there was

59:32

a lot of, there was, Bush was

59:34

president and people were all angry

59:36

about that stuff, but people were

59:38

cool men. So I'm totally looking

59:40

forward to coming back. And that's

59:42

the one thing that I can

59:44

say also about, by Jiu-Jitsu, which

59:47

is really cool is that you

59:49

get all walks of life on

59:51

the map. You get the brick

59:53

layer, you get the systems engineer,

59:55

you get the trans rights activist.

59:57

all trained together. You leave

59:59

politics. outside, because there's enough of

1:00:01

that. We are here to get better

1:00:03

at Jiu Jitsu, have a beer

1:00:05

afterwards. Maybe, maybe not, but just hang

1:00:07

out and, and, and it's just,

1:00:09

it's just meritocracy in its best form

1:00:11

because just not necessarily how good

1:00:14

you are, but if you're a good

1:00:16

training partner, nobody cares if you're

1:00:18

super good. And if you're a dick,

1:00:20

nobody wants to roll with you,

1:00:22

but if you're a value training partner,

1:00:24

you know, that dude is really

1:00:26

not that good at Jiu Jitsu, but

1:00:28

he's there all the time and

1:00:30

he's fun and he's joking. And he

1:00:32

livens up the place and he

1:00:34

trains as best as he or she

1:00:36

can. That is awesome. And you

1:00:38

have a gym filled with that, so

1:00:40

totally earth people. That is what,

1:00:43

you know, that's why Jiu Jitsu is

1:00:45

so cool and people need to

1:00:47

do more of it. Um, that same

1:00:49

vibe is just sometimes it's lost

1:00:51

in the general discourse. And, and, uh,

1:00:53

if you watch the news, people

1:00:55

are at each other's throats all the

1:00:57

time. No, they're not. They're already

1:00:59

trying to struts on the mat, trying

1:01:01

to choke each other. You know,

1:01:03

and they're not talking about people and

1:01:05

give a shit. People just want

1:01:07

to live their lives and be able

1:01:09

to just support, support their families,

1:01:11

have fun with their kids and, and

1:01:14

roll around like a bunch of

1:01:16

savages. That's fun. You know, and I've

1:01:18

actually had the same experience also.

1:01:20

I picked up a new hobby, rock

1:01:22

climbing, bouldering and rock climbing. I

1:01:24

saw might as well just try something

1:01:26

completely different. And, um, I call

1:01:28

it vertical jujitsu because it's almost jujitsu.

1:01:30

It's like positive problem solving, but

1:01:32

it's vertical. You have to go up.

1:01:34

It's a boldly problem. And, uh,

1:01:36

the same vibe that I got it

1:01:38

and jujitsu gyms, it's almost the

1:01:40

exact same vibe. We get that the

1:01:43

bouldering gym and the climbing wall,

1:01:45

they're all people from all walks of

1:01:47

life. Um, and they're just there

1:01:49

to get good at climbing and getting

1:01:51

really jacked and really strong. And,

1:01:53

um, so that's, that's a nice environment

1:01:55

to be in, you know, and

1:01:57

I think, um, in, in modern society,

1:01:59

there aren't that many places. where you can

1:02:01

be physical with people without repercussions. You

1:02:04

know, it's just a rare

1:02:06

thing, you know, and that's

1:02:08

why Jiu-Jitsu is just so

1:02:10

awesome, because you can, you

1:02:12

know, it blends all those worlds

1:02:14

together. You had said something

1:02:16

about going back to the

1:02:19

Netherlands and just not having

1:02:21

as good. of Jiu-jitsu there I

1:02:23

guess not as it wasn't as developed

1:02:25

as it was in the states. Can

1:02:27

you talk a little bit about like

1:02:29

how did you keep your level of

1:02:31

Jiu-jitsu evolving keep improving and you know

1:02:33

finding places to learn obviously with the

1:02:36

internet not being what it is still

1:02:38

trying to improve your game living in

1:02:40

a different country maybe where Jiu-jitsu wasn't

1:02:42

as developed. Yeah well there were some

1:02:44

pockets of people spread around the country

1:02:46

that were doing really good stuff but

1:02:49

there was nowhere near There was only

1:02:51

one gym in Amsterdam, but the instructor

1:02:53

was a blue belt just like me.

1:02:55

So I would just go there and

1:02:57

we would have brawls and it was

1:02:59

fun. So I had some people that

1:03:01

train with and he was a really

1:03:03

cool guy. He's a Hickson black belt

1:03:05

now actually, Marcim Leidecker at

1:03:07

full gym. It's a kickboxing gym and

1:03:09

I had a very small MMA program

1:03:12

and that's why I trained. And I

1:03:14

had some some friends that I met

1:03:16

there and we started training at. a

1:03:18

wrestling gym where we could rent the

1:03:20

met space and what something would

1:03:23

be like the Dutch equivalent

1:03:25

of the YMCA but it's just a

1:03:27

community center that had a mat space

1:03:29

they would do yoga and they would

1:03:32

do judo and would rent a mat

1:03:34

there and would we would train there

1:03:36

and basically I would just do the

1:03:39

resistance drills that I

1:03:41

learned from Mike passing but it

1:03:43

was mostly passing and defending the guard

1:03:45

drills and to get some sort of

1:03:48

guard going and once I kind of

1:03:50

understood guard everything else evolved from that

1:03:52

and started doing some competitions but it

1:03:54

was it was rough and I would

1:03:57

I had my notebook with techniques that

1:03:59

I'd learned. I'm pretty good visual memory

1:04:01

and I'm pretty good at organizing

1:04:03

stuff in my mind. So I

1:04:06

had flow charts that I made

1:04:08

and I always made notes after

1:04:10

training sessions to kind of keep

1:04:12

my, yeah, to know like where

1:04:14

did I go wrong, what did

1:04:16

I do, did I do right?

1:04:19

And it was just a lot

1:04:21

of studying and VHS tapes and

1:04:23

then later some some burnt ripped

1:04:25

CDs. stolen DVDs from from tracker

1:04:27

sites. It wasn't even the tracker

1:04:29

site. It was something else. I

1:04:32

don't know. But I had some

1:04:34

Mario Sperry Volatuto tapes on DVD

1:04:36

that I just watched religiously also

1:04:38

for comedic value because Mario Sperry

1:04:40

was just hilarious just making me

1:04:42

most inappropriate jokes that you cannot

1:04:45

repeat now because you get canceled.

1:04:47

But it was it was awesome.

1:04:49

But yeah, so I had tapes,

1:04:51

I had my notebook, I had

1:04:53

a bunch of training partners, actually

1:04:55

one of my best training partners,

1:04:57

then he recently actually died. It

1:05:00

was quite tragic, but I trained

1:05:02

with him for many years. Aron

1:05:04

Carjos, rest in peace. How did

1:05:06

he pass? He killed himself. Yeah,

1:05:08

so that's another aspect of like

1:05:10

mental health in Jitsu. That's a

1:05:13

huge thing. Or like, but I

1:05:15

feel like nowadays, it's also like,

1:05:17

it's more common to kind of

1:05:19

open up on struggles. You have

1:05:21

to submit the stigma program that

1:05:23

I think is going pretty well

1:05:26

in the states or this kind

1:05:28

of awareness of mental health problems.

1:05:30

And yeah, that's something that. you

1:05:32

know, at first you didn't really

1:05:34

talk about your feelings in Jitsu.

1:05:36

No, it's like, no, you get

1:05:39

smashed. But I think it's just,

1:05:41

what I was saying is like

1:05:43

nowadays, because gyms become more like

1:05:45

an extended family and you have

1:05:47

people from all walks of life,

1:05:49

it's a lot more safer to

1:05:52

kind of open up. I've had

1:05:54

many beautiful conversations with people after

1:05:56

the mat if you just joked

1:05:58

an ever living life. life out

1:06:00

of somebody. You just said like,

1:06:03

well, I'm totally burned out

1:06:05

at work or my relationships

1:06:07

failing, whatever you, because you've

1:06:09

already went to the fire with

1:06:11

people. And it's really nice to

1:06:13

kind of use that also as a way

1:06:15

to, you know, connect with people.

1:06:18

And yeah, so it's, it's, it's,

1:06:20

it's something that, I feel it's

1:06:22

good that it's, there's more, people

1:06:24

are more opening up about their,

1:06:26

but their struggle as well. Yeah.

1:06:28

Yeah, it's it's uh, I've always found that like

1:06:30

it's easy to talk for at least for me

1:06:32

like to talk to the guys in the gym

1:06:34

whether it was wrestling or even Jiu even from

1:06:36

a pretty like once I felt comfortable with the

1:06:39

guys back in the day I mean I would

1:06:41

like I would be asking them for advice on

1:06:43

stuff right because man my girlfriend and I got

1:06:45

in a fight like what do you whatever you

1:06:47

know that kind of stuff in there's an interesting

1:06:49

idea that an author shared I think his last

1:06:52

name is Reeves Reeves Reeves Reeves I can't remember

1:06:54

but the book is called of boys and men.

1:06:56

And so one of the things that he brings

1:06:58

up is the idea that like, you know, there,

1:07:00

and he sort of brings us up and it's

1:07:03

worth bringing up that. you know you can

1:07:05

hold that like women have challenges and men

1:07:07

have unique challenges as well that like it's

1:07:09

not like saying that if we acknowledge the

1:07:11

men's challenges you can't acknowledge is a woman

1:07:14

a woman challenge so but he said there's

1:07:16

a unique issue issue with men where like

1:07:18

for instance with suicide mental health issues like

1:07:20

it's like if you look at the suicide

1:07:22

suicide stats like men kill themselves I mean

1:07:25

it's exponentially more than women it's not even

1:07:27

close yeah and so he's like looking at

1:07:29

different things and one of the things that

1:07:31

he mentions is that One of the problems,

1:07:34

like an issue of men's health is that

1:07:36

we've lost a lot of the places that

1:07:38

we would normally go to as men and

1:07:40

we would do an activity as we talked

1:07:43

out whatever was going on, right? For instance,

1:07:45

like, you know, if like you look, if

1:07:47

a woman goes to talk and they're having

1:07:49

a big deep conversation, they look at each

1:07:52

other and like face to face and they're

1:07:54

like, really like, what's going on, right? It's

1:07:56

this very intense one on whatever thing, like,

1:07:58

whatever thing, or like, advice I've gotten from

1:08:00

people would be like me and the guys would be

1:08:03

bench pressing and like what my old mentor Jim would

1:08:05

you know he would lay a little piece of wisdom

1:08:07

on me. Oh man that stuck with me or you

1:08:09

know back in the day would have been a couple

1:08:11

guys working on their car talking to each other having

1:08:13

a couple of beers having a couple of beers and

1:08:16

you know now like I've had some pretty deep conversations

1:08:18

shoulder to shoulder with one of the guys on the

1:08:20

mats like we're both tired we just had a good

1:08:22

roll we just had a good roll and we just

1:08:24

had a good roll and we just had a good

1:08:26

roll and we just had a good roll and we

1:08:28

just had a good roll and we just had a

1:08:31

good roll and we just had a good roll and

1:08:33

we just had a good roll and we just had

1:08:35

a good roll and we just had a good roll

1:08:37

and we just had a good roll and we just

1:08:39

had a good roll and we just had a good

1:08:41

roll and we just had a good roll and we

1:08:44

just had a good roll and we just had a

1:08:46

good roll and we just had like we're just side

1:08:48

talking and so that's the that's the term that he

1:08:50

uses like that men are like when we want to

1:08:52

talk about deep stuff a lot of times sometimes we're

1:08:54

we're best to side talkers doing an activity or being

1:08:57

involved in an activity yeah yeah and it's like if

1:08:59

you don't if you don't make sure you don't arrange

1:09:01

that for yourself in your life you're really missing out

1:09:03

and but yeah it is kind of like it there

1:09:05

used to be also taboo about men not opening up

1:09:07

about their feelings this is true That is, that at

1:09:10

least with my friends, my peers now, people are, I

1:09:12

have a men circle that I go to once a

1:09:14

month and with a bunch of dudes sit around talk

1:09:16

about stuff that's going on and we're quite email about

1:09:18

it, but it's a good thing. You know, it's like,

1:09:20

you don't want to get that stuff bottled up. But,

1:09:23

but, um, well, right. You also, like, you know, you

1:09:25

want to be able to talk amongst, like, like, male

1:09:27

friends about what's going on. you know it's still something

1:09:29

that like I would feel more comfortable talking out like

1:09:31

some like whatever turmoil is going on to a certain

1:09:33

degree certain issues with one of my my male friends

1:09:36

then I would to come home and just be a

1:09:38

blubbering mess to my wife yeah I mean like it's

1:09:40

not I can talk about my wife about anything but

1:09:42

again there's a certain thing where you know I want

1:09:44

to still be a strong partner for her and so

1:09:46

but it is good to have a male group where

1:09:49

if something comes up you have someone to go to

1:09:51

and you can you know get your get your thoughts

1:09:53

together and then go from there you know but I

1:09:55

think yeah but it's like sometimes it's like there's a

1:09:57

bit of a taboo like when you're in in deep

1:09:59

mental shit people don't want to reach

1:10:01

out sometimes. And I've had people

1:10:04

that have sometimes I've had it with

1:10:06

when I taught class and I saw

1:10:08

somebody was not happy and I just

1:10:10

I felt like there's something there's

1:10:12

something off with this guy but

1:10:14

but as a person I like

1:10:16

him but I'm like yes he's

1:10:18

not he's not comfortable and I always

1:10:20

had kind of a feel for that. But

1:10:23

sometimes people would just say like, can we

1:10:25

can we can we can you walk with

1:10:27

me for a little bit and people open

1:10:29

up on all sorts of things but it's

1:10:31

also because you've had that space where you're

1:10:33

doing something you're doing an activity but you're

1:10:36

also really in tune with somebody's mental state

1:10:38

and their physical being with this all

1:10:40

tensed up like who and that is

1:10:42

a beautiful thing but. There are spaces where

1:10:44

men can, you know, you can go fishing

1:10:47

and whatever, you can do work on your

1:10:49

car, you can go to the gym. But,

1:10:51

but, Jiu-Jitsu helps is that it's

1:10:53

also a physical activity where you

1:10:56

are problem solving and you're also,

1:10:58

you are, you're doing a lot of

1:11:00

stuff with your body, so you feel

1:11:03

the tension already. If you flow, if

1:11:05

you roll with somebody who's not in

1:11:07

a good state of mind, their body

1:11:09

will feel different. Sure. And I think

1:11:11

because you've already been through that,

1:11:13

so you have already have an

1:11:15

understanding of people, that is why

1:11:18

it's easy to open up to

1:11:20

people, I think, but this, I'm

1:11:22

speculative, but I've found I've had

1:11:24

really good, just really beautiful conversations

1:11:26

with people about all sorts of

1:11:28

things after a really brutal training

1:11:30

session and where you've noticed like, oh,

1:11:32

somebody's not. I don't feel well. Well, I

1:11:34

mean, like, thinking about that, I mean, like,

1:11:37

think about the amount of trust that you

1:11:39

give to someone when you're letting them put

1:11:41

you in some of the most vulnerable positions.

1:11:43

And it's so, you know, I think you

1:11:46

can build trust one way or the other,

1:11:48

but I think there's a unique bond that

1:11:50

people form when they're been this close to

1:11:53

each other. And like you said, you get

1:11:55

very in tune to someone's energy, the way

1:11:57

their body feels when they're like something's all.

1:11:59

or they're in some sort of emotional

1:12:02

state, you can feel it. And so

1:12:04

I think like you said, you get

1:12:06

to, you're a little bit more in

1:12:08

tune with that person because of it.

1:12:11

But I think the level of trust,

1:12:13

you know, like if you're gonna dump

1:12:15

your guts out a little bit, right,

1:12:17

and sort of test the waters with

1:12:20

someone. you probably don't feel like it's

1:12:22

that big of a deal after this

1:12:24

person just tried to choke you unconscious

1:12:27

and vice versa. So it's like, all

1:12:29

right, this is not that big of

1:12:31

a deal. I was just, you know,

1:12:33

taking you to the brink of unconsciousness

1:12:36

and I'm just having a rough day

1:12:38

with my girlfriend was wanted to chat

1:12:40

with you about it, right? Like, probably

1:12:42

not that big of a deal. Yeah,

1:12:45

exactly, exactly. That's a beautiful thing indeed.

1:12:47

Yeah. I think expending, expendinging, expending a

1:12:49

lot of that physical, like if people,

1:12:51

like people, especially men, especially men, have

1:12:54

expended a lot of that physical injury

1:12:56

that physical tension you're kind of more

1:12:58

relaxed or a more relaxed state and

1:13:01

I think it allows you to be

1:13:03

less guarded especially after you spend some

1:13:05

time building trust you know with the

1:13:07

training partners and holding each other and

1:13:10

choking each other and beating close proximity

1:13:12

and I think you just I think

1:13:14

you let go of a lot of

1:13:16

the the barriers kind of almost kind

1:13:19

of flake off and then you can

1:13:21

you feel more open because there's something

1:13:23

because like like like Chewy said you're

1:13:25

kind of side talking, you just did

1:13:28

this challenging thing and everybody just kind

1:13:30

of relaxing after a tough training session

1:13:32

trying to, that's where just conversation comes

1:13:35

out and I think it's one of

1:13:37

the best things, one of my favorite

1:13:39

things about Jiu-Jitsu and I think it's

1:13:41

important, I think it's important for everybody

1:13:44

to have that community. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:13:46

definitely, definitely. We just did, June, I

1:13:48

just did a podcast the other day

1:13:50

about like deriving a deeper meaning from

1:13:53

Jiu and a, For use training as

1:13:55

long as you have 20 plus years.

1:13:57

I mean martial arts probably what close

1:13:59

to 30 40 years something like that.

1:14:02

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's 25 25

1:14:04

years in. Yeah. How many stripes do

1:14:06

you have now? I got. I got

1:14:09

three. I got three. Okay. Three. Nice.

1:14:11

Oh yeah. But this means it means

1:14:13

that you didn't die. Yeah, no, I

1:14:15

know. It's like that's one of the

1:14:18

little kids once asked me if when

1:14:20

I get a red belt, you know,

1:14:22

and I told them well, if I

1:14:24

get a red belt, you know, and

1:14:27

I told them well, if I don't

1:14:29

die by a certain year, then I

1:14:31

might be able to, or you know,

1:14:33

a black and red belt, the coral

1:14:36

belt, or whatever it is. Yeah, right.

1:14:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Daniel, so

1:14:40

my question, have you derived a deeper

1:14:43

meaning from Jiu-Jitsu or what does maybe

1:14:45

Jiu-Jitsu mean to you possibly when you

1:14:47

started it now? Like what does it

1:14:49

mean to you now? And then the

1:14:52

last question is how's it kind of

1:14:54

helped you in life? Is there a

1:14:56

way that Jiu-Jitsu's kind of impacted you

1:14:58

in your life? Yeah, what I derive

1:15:01

from it is that it's that sense

1:15:03

of belonging I guess? and being good

1:15:05

at something and also finding that I'm

1:15:08

really good at teaching that stuff. I

1:15:10

also, I kind of discovered pretty early

1:15:12

on that competitor, being a competitor, wasn't

1:15:14

really what floated my vote. I got

1:15:17

too much anxiety. I had mixed results

1:15:19

and I figured, yeah, it's not really

1:15:21

my jam. I get so anxious with

1:15:23

competitions. I did a bunch, but... it

1:15:26

wasn't my it wasn't my jam but

1:15:28

I really love to teach and I

1:15:30

really love to teach oddly enough competitor

1:15:32

classes and people did quite well doing

1:15:35

that but it's been it's been something

1:15:37

that I've I've I've really enjoyed being

1:15:39

really good at something that is a

1:15:42

little bit niche and obscure but now

1:15:44

it's as exploded so that was cool

1:15:46

it was just a sense of accomplishment

1:15:48

I guess or just being Like whatever

1:15:51

goes wrong in my life, I know

1:15:53

I can teach a class, a judice,

1:15:55

so people are going to be really

1:15:57

excited. You know, I can teach a

1:16:00

seminar. You go on YouTube, there's a

1:16:02

bunch of seminars of mine, please check

1:16:04

them out. And let me know what you

1:16:06

think. So that sense of accomplishment

1:16:08

is really nice and it's kept

1:16:11

me like super strong, I'm fit,

1:16:13

I'm 45 years old and I

1:16:15

feel pretty good. Not a lot

1:16:18

of injuries, so that's good. That's

1:16:20

also because of the yoga and

1:16:22

because of strength rating and the

1:16:24

communal aspect and just being like

1:16:27

establishing friendships that lasts. Super,

1:16:29

you know, that's span across continents. I

1:16:31

go to go toward those camps. I

1:16:34

meet new people, cool new people all

1:16:36

the time at those camps. I make

1:16:38

friends for life, you know, and I'm

1:16:40

going to visit, I'm going to visit

1:16:42

some of them in the States at

1:16:44

the end of April. And so that

1:16:47

the communal aspect is awesome. And

1:16:49

what was the other question you

1:16:51

had? Well, like, how's it helped you

1:16:53

deal with anything challenging or giving

1:16:56

you some tools? Well, people like

1:16:58

to say that, that it becomes,

1:17:00

you become really good at navigating

1:17:02

disaster, I guess, but I'm not

1:17:04

that good at that. It's been

1:17:06

an outlet. It's helped me as

1:17:08

an outlet. I've also noticed that

1:17:10

I kind of took a step back

1:17:12

away from Jiu-Jitsu for a little while.

1:17:14

I started training less and I thought

1:17:16

that was also kind of a

1:17:18

healthy thing to do because I was

1:17:21

getting, I just wanted to learn something

1:17:23

completely new and I was getting

1:17:25

a little bit jaded. in the sense

1:17:27

that I would teach class and I

1:17:29

would teach class in the way that

1:17:31

I enjoy it and that will be

1:17:33

it. And I wasn't really feeling it

1:17:36

at a certain point. So I started

1:17:38

doing some other sports, I started doing

1:17:40

climbing and then through climbing and

1:17:42

through being a complete beginner in something

1:17:44

again, I kind of like, I wanna

1:17:46

go teach a little bit more now.

1:17:48

So I have a. I have a deep

1:17:50

love for Jjitsu, but it's not as

1:17:52

super important in my life as it

1:17:55

used to be. But I think that

1:17:57

changes, you know, your interests shift as

1:17:59

you get older, and I have two

1:18:01

kids. I have other things that I

1:18:03

enjoy. So

1:18:06

at first I was a little

1:18:08

bit of monomantic.

1:18:11

I was only obsessed about Jiu

1:18:13

Jitsu and that was good. That was

1:18:15

a nice thing to do, to

1:18:17

get my ADHD up and running and

1:18:19

get into hyper focus and learning

1:18:21

this as fast as possible. And once

1:18:23

you reach a certain level or

1:18:25

certain skill set within the time that

1:18:27

you have available to train, you're

1:18:29

going to plateau. You're not going to

1:18:31

get any better. So I think

1:18:33

it's healthy for me to kind of,

1:18:35

when I kind of took a

1:18:37

step away from Jiu Jitsu and focused

1:18:40

on other things, made me a

1:18:42

little bit more broader as a person.

1:18:44

And so it's been a constant

1:18:46

day in my life. I still really

1:18:48

enjoy it and I still, yeah,

1:18:50

it's just something that is just part

1:18:52

of your daily or like your

1:18:54

weekly routine, I guess. We'll

1:18:56

talk about your camps and stuff coming

1:18:58

up. I know you have some kids. I'm

1:19:02

a relatively new father. How do

1:19:04

you think fatherhood, yeah, thank you. How

1:19:06

do you think fatherhood's changed you

1:19:08

as a person? Well,

1:19:12

you know the feeling in Jiu Jitsu where

1:19:15

there's always a bigger fish and somebody's already

1:19:17

ready to kick your ass? Well, that's fatherhood

1:19:19

essentially, that your kids will always kick your

1:19:21

ass. You're not going to, you always have

1:19:23

that. Because

1:19:25

they will always come first.

1:19:27

So they will, yeah, you

1:19:29

will have to put all

1:19:32

your nonsense there because they

1:19:34

are the priority now. And

1:19:36

that's a very healthy thing,

1:19:38

I guess. I think so.

1:19:40

Yeah. And yeah, it's been,

1:19:43

it's been humbling. My daughter

1:19:45

is 12 years old and

1:19:47

my son is eight. And

1:19:49

I both got them to

1:19:51

do a little bit of

1:19:54

Jiu Jitsu, but I really

1:19:56

did not want to push

1:19:58

it. And at a certain

1:20:00

point, my daughter said, I just don't feel like it

1:20:02

anymore. I'm like, okay, that's fine. I don't

1:20:05

want to be that guy that says

1:20:07

you have to do this because I

1:20:09

know my daughter, she's not going to

1:20:11

do anything that I'm going to tell

1:20:13

her to do. She's going to go

1:20:15

the exact opposite. My son did judo

1:20:17

for a little bit, but he was, but

1:20:19

you know, I'd rather go to acting class

1:20:21

fine, you know, and I think that's

1:20:23

also, yeah. You know, kids don't necessarily have

1:20:25

to like what you like. You know, and

1:20:28

I was completely fanatical about Jiu-Jitsu, but I

1:20:30

want them to be extremely fanatical about something

1:20:32

else. You know, find your own passion and

1:20:34

go for it and, you know, take names

1:20:36

and, you know, do what you want. But for me,

1:20:38

I could care less. I just want them to

1:20:41

be happy. You know, and I think it's an

1:20:43

healthy perspective. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you become like, well,

1:20:45

well, in a hollow, we call them, we call

1:20:47

them, we call them, we call them, we call

1:20:49

them, we call them football fathers, we call them

1:20:51

football fathers, football fathers, football fathers, football

1:20:53

fathers. football dads that want their

1:20:56

son to be the absolute OG

1:20:58

king of the football field and

1:21:00

they invest all their life all

1:21:02

their their mental capacities into getting

1:21:05

their son or daughter to be

1:21:07

this this person and I think

1:21:09

that's very sad. I think in

1:21:11

the US we call it dance

1:21:13

moms or like baseball dads like

1:21:15

you know the dad would like

1:21:17

get their kid involved in it

1:21:19

and like If your kid's not

1:21:22

in it, you know, no amount

1:21:24

of forcing them, I would, you

1:21:26

know, maybe except for some strange

1:21:28

outliers, no amount of forcing your

1:21:30

kid, forcing another human being is going

1:21:32

to give them passion to want to

1:21:35

continue for the rest of their life

1:21:37

to, you know, make some career out

1:21:39

of it, right? Like, it's like trying

1:21:41

to get your kids to eat food

1:21:44

they don't want to eat it. Yeah, my

1:21:46

parents kind of actively... It discouraged me

1:21:48

to do martial arts. My mom thought,

1:21:50

you're just going to be a thug

1:21:52

if you do martial arts. So I

1:21:54

wasn't allowed to train judo. I could

1:21:56

only train judo because he thought that

1:21:58

was a friendly art. Little did

1:22:00

she know that my judo instructor

1:22:02

was a vicious sadistic pressure passing

1:22:05

monster. And so yeah, but anyway,

1:22:07

but yeah, I went the opposite

1:22:09

way. So I think my kids

1:22:11

are going to do the same

1:22:13

thing if I try to push

1:22:15

them to do something that I

1:22:17

want to do, they're going to

1:22:20

go, just the other way. Yeah,

1:22:22

just leave the door open if

1:22:24

they want to. Sure, sure, sometimes

1:22:26

they said, like, can we wrestle?

1:22:28

Of course we can wrestle. That's

1:22:30

it. Then they wrestle with me

1:22:32

and I, and I, and I

1:22:34

just, I flipped them some stuff.

1:22:37

Like I flipped them over and

1:22:39

yeah, that's enough. That's enough. Yeah.

1:22:41

I would say as a parent,

1:22:43

I have a nine and seven

1:22:45

year old, I think your kids

1:22:47

and force you to evolve because.

1:22:49

You'll realize that like maybe the

1:22:51

things that you did when they're

1:22:54

younger don't work and you have

1:22:56

to kind of continue to evolve

1:22:58

and yet be Don't know like

1:23:00

you can't be the same parent

1:23:02

and you don't want to be

1:23:04

the same parent you were when

1:23:06

they were Newborns to I mean

1:23:08

I'm a completely different parent. I

1:23:11

mean, I'm a completely different parent.

1:23:13

Well, they're like I mean, they're

1:23:15

changing like talking a bunch sure

1:23:17

and so now he's like starting

1:23:19

to like He's challenging me now,

1:23:21

but he's challenging me in different

1:23:23

ways, right? Because it's like, okay,

1:23:25

now we're doing everything. So now

1:23:28

it's like what worked on him

1:23:30

just like a few months ago.

1:23:32

isn't working. It's not having the

1:23:34

same effects. So now it's like

1:23:36

I've got to adjust the plan.

1:23:38

And I'm like, I feel like

1:23:40

I'm, I feel like I'm, I

1:23:43

feel like I'm, I feel like

1:23:45

I'm rolling with someone in their

1:23:47

defense. It's like, oh, they just

1:23:49

started defended my first attempt. Sure.

1:23:51

Now I've got to like change

1:23:53

something else off because, you know,

1:23:55

what used to work and all

1:23:57

over working. Yeah. You can't brute

1:24:00

force anything to happen. You have

1:24:02

to get like these are the

1:24:04

options and you know, choose wisely

1:24:06

young Jedi, you know, it's like,

1:24:08

but you can't brute force your

1:24:10

way through life. I think if

1:24:12

there's one lesson that you can

1:24:14

learn from digital is that that

1:24:17

will probably never work or in

1:24:19

the long run, it won't work,

1:24:21

because you're passing your way into

1:24:23

things. So yeah, you have to

1:24:25

kind of like, okay. This is something

1:24:27

I can deal with, but this is

1:24:29

something I can manipulate to my advantage,

1:24:32

I guess. Sure. And now, yeah. Yeah,

1:24:34

I mean, because I mean, you could,

1:24:36

I mean, you could obviously brute force

1:24:38

something with your kids, but are you

1:24:41

going to like the effects of the

1:24:43

aftermath, which you are your kids, or

1:24:45

are your kids going to love you,

1:24:47

right? Like you said, short term, yeah,

1:24:49

maybe you get the desired outcome you

1:24:52

want, but long term, is it the

1:24:54

best decision? the money or the, they

1:24:56

can't just to know how, but when they

1:24:58

get a little older, it starts with

1:25:00

wealth. And when they're 18, they're

1:25:03

out of there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, which,

1:25:05

you know, you don't want that. Like you

1:25:07

want to have a good relationship with your,

1:25:09

I would, I wouldn't have a

1:25:11

good relationship with my kids. I think

1:25:14

it would be really important for them

1:25:16

to see me in a positive light,

1:25:18

like, but you know, it's, it's, it's

1:25:20

like a back and forth. got a

1:25:22

change with the as they get older

1:25:25

because they have more tools for sure.

1:25:27

Daniel I wanted to ask you about

1:25:29

where can people check out some of

1:25:32

your some of your seminars and

1:25:34

I'll put the link in the

1:25:36

show notes it's just on YouTube

1:25:38

or working people kind of see

1:25:40

what you're up to as well.

1:25:42

Yeah no like there's a bunch

1:25:44

of yeah I'm on Instagram obviously

1:25:47

they can follow me there I

1:25:49

have I've been involved with BJJ Goldtrotter

1:25:51

since, almost since its inception. I've

1:25:53

been doing these camps. And there

1:25:55

is some footage of me teaching

1:25:57

there. There's, I think there's now.

1:25:59

three pretty well-produced

1:26:02

videos on BJJ Globetotters

1:26:04

or Globetotters in action.

1:26:06

And that's me teaching seminars. There's

1:26:09

a no, two no gee seminars

1:26:11

and a gee seminar. And on

1:26:13

my own YouTube page, I think

1:26:15

my handle, I forgot my, actually

1:26:17

I forgot my own handle, but

1:26:19

if you Google, meet my name

1:26:21

and Jiu-Jitsu, Brazil Jiu-Jitsu,

1:26:23

you'll find it. There's some

1:26:25

stuff that I kind of

1:26:27

edited it down. But the content

1:26:30

is the production value is kind of

1:26:32

crap, but the the content is

1:26:34

good. So yeah, and I'm going

1:26:36

to go to the teacher seminar

1:26:38

at in inverted gear academy at

1:26:40

the end of April. So people.

1:26:42

What's the date on that April

1:26:44

what? We haven't figured out when

1:26:46

I'm going to do the seminar

1:26:48

yet, but I'm going to go

1:26:50

from I think it's from the

1:26:52

29th. I'll set today the 29th

1:26:54

up until the next Saturday. I'll

1:26:56

be one week. I'll be there.

1:26:58

But um, enjoy the gear. They've

1:27:01

been, they've been like buddies of

1:27:03

mine through go-trotters for a long

1:27:05

time and they, they're gonna have

1:27:07

me over. So, very cool. Yeah,

1:27:09

Nelson Hillary, great people. Yeah, there's

1:27:11

more on podcast too. Yeah, I

1:27:14

know. It's also, we spent, we,

1:27:16

we spent a couple of weeks together

1:27:18

hanging out. and they're good folks.

1:27:21

And yeah, my brother Brad Wolfson

1:27:23

in New Haven, Connecticut, from Soul

1:27:25

Craft, BJJ, I'm gonna go visit

1:27:28

him too, and maybe teach there

1:27:30

as well. So it's gonna be

1:27:33

a week of Jiu-Jitsu. I'll probably

1:27:35

break myself. I'm not sure if

1:27:37

I can handle so much, because

1:27:40

everybody on the East Coast probably

1:27:42

wrestlers and stuff, so like, oh

1:27:44

my God, I'm gonna, I'm gonna

1:27:47

get crushed. this kind of

1:27:49

reputation for being like this

1:27:51

skinny lengthy guy who's got

1:27:53

like sick pressure passing yeah but

1:27:56

I don't know if I can

1:27:58

still heck it can handle the

1:28:00

Pennsylvania wrestlers that's that's that's some real

1:28:02

pressure though that is that is but

1:28:05

you know I mean that said most

1:28:07

of the gyms are still not like

1:28:09

Pennsylvania wrestlers right like you might you

1:28:11

might have some squeezing in there somewhere

1:28:14

but it probably won't be the majority

1:28:16

luckily yeah yeah yeah yeah no awesome

1:28:18

brother so well yeah hopefully yeah hopefully

1:28:20

you're in the states you enjoy your

1:28:22

time here and um True, you got

1:28:25

anything man? No, I mean, it was

1:28:27

good just chatting with you for a

1:28:29

bit. I'll I'll call back up with

1:28:31

you. If I'm able to make it

1:28:34

out there for the week, you're there,

1:28:36

it will. But if I ever find

1:28:38

myself in Europe for some strange reason,

1:28:40

I'll make sure to get in touch

1:28:43

with you. Not sure. Yeah. Our gym

1:28:45

is located in Amsterdam. I moved out

1:28:47

like I moved out 10 years ago

1:28:49

because no human being can live in

1:28:51

Amsterdam so them can live in Amsterdam.

1:28:54

passing through, sending a message on Instagram

1:28:56

or whatever. And we always love to

1:28:58

have visitors because it's very visitor friendly.

1:29:00

So it's always the name of the

1:29:03

gym. It's Carlson Gracie Amsterdam. I'm with

1:29:05

the Carlson School. My instructors had a

1:29:07

hand show, but I'm one of the

1:29:09

one of the instructors that runs around

1:29:11

and sometimes teaches. teaches the class here

1:29:14

and there so yeah very cool dude

1:29:16

you were you were definitely influential to

1:29:18

be like as a as a young

1:29:20

wrestler getting into Jjitsu and you know

1:29:23

so it was fun chatting with you

1:29:25

again no I really appreciated you're your

1:29:27

energy always in the in the gym

1:29:29

it was awesome and we had some

1:29:31

good chats man because you were you

1:29:34

we I didn't have a driver's license

1:29:36

he would drive me to it yeah

1:29:38

often so we'd have good chats good

1:29:40

roles I am and I've always have

1:29:43

a place of my heart for chewy

1:29:45

man to his chewy's the salt of

1:29:47

the salt of the salt of the

1:29:49

earth I appreciate it buddy. All right

1:29:52

guys, so hopefully enjoy that podcast with

1:29:54

my buddy Daniel. He's fun. He's fun.

1:29:56

He's fun to talk to. Interesting like

1:29:58

you know just his. his trajectory

1:30:01

his life kind of just seems like he

1:30:03

goes back and forth kind of traveled a lot as a young

1:30:05

yeah he'd a lot like experience it was like he would be with us

1:30:07

for three months leave come back three months you know because he was I

1:30:09

mean he was all in with that woman at one point you know but

1:30:11

didn't work out I remember it was like it was a bummer scene I

1:30:13

have to leave because I was like my it was my bro it was

1:30:15

like my best training partner that I had and you know like we said

1:30:17

like at the time I was driving at the time I was driving at

1:30:19

the training partner that I had and you know like we said like at

1:30:21

the time I was driving at the time I was driving partner that I

1:30:24

had and you know like we said like at the time I get the

1:30:26

time I get the time I get the time I get the time I

1:30:28

get the time I get the time I get the time I get the

1:30:30

time I get the time I get the time I get the time I

1:30:32

get the time I get the time I get the time I get the

1:30:34

time I get the time I was driving I was driving I was driving

1:30:36

I get the time I was driving I was driving I get the time

1:30:38

I was driving I was driving I was driving I get the time I

1:30:40

was driving I was driving I Yeah, you know, it's

1:30:42

it's it's just interesting thinking about that

1:30:45

stuff because it's back then it seemed

1:30:47

like you know such a long time You

1:30:49

know, it was a comment. We just we

1:30:51

were training so much. Yeah, it was like

1:30:53

a two years. Yeah, I know for two

1:30:55

years But like in my mind he takes

1:30:57

out because it was at the beginning. He

1:31:00

took up a disproportionate amount of like my

1:31:02

my thought in that early phases. Yeah, one

1:31:04

of the crucial figures there because it's one

1:31:06

thing to have your coach and stuff like

1:31:08

your coach and stuff like a and like you're

1:31:10

making you're sharpening each other because it's

1:31:12

like if your coach is going with

1:31:14

you it's one thing but your coach

1:31:17

can shut you down if you're at

1:31:19

that newer stage at any point yeah

1:31:21

it's another thing to be going a

1:31:23

hundred percent with someone and you

1:31:25

guys are both getting the better of

1:31:27

each other every night every night off

1:31:29

and you guys are both getting the

1:31:31

better of each other every night off

1:31:33

and on that's you know and so

1:31:35

having someone like that if you ever

1:31:37

have those training partners those battle bro

1:31:39

finding someone who you develop a good relationship

1:31:41

with you feel comfortable with you feel safe with

1:31:44

right because safety is a big deal for us

1:31:46

in trading right we got to feel like we're