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new year on a healthier

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note. Is Trump making things

1:20

better or worse for America

1:22

on the world stage? I'm

1:24

Chris Cuomo. Welcome to the

1:26

Chris Cuomo project. Ian Bremmer

1:28

has become such a success

1:30

in business and in media because

1:33

he is a citizen of the

1:35

world. And he goes around, not

1:37

just as a consultant, but as

1:39

a consumer, of understanding, of

1:41

perspective. And he has a

1:44

take on what the Trump

1:46

administration is doing that

1:48

maybe doing America dirty,

1:51

not today, but sooner

1:53

than any of us would

1:55

want to imagine. And

1:57

the idea of isolation.

2:00

being isolating from progress and

2:02

what drives the world forward

2:04

is a really scary proposition.

2:06

And Ian Bremmer understands it

2:09

really well in a way

2:11

that even I can. So

2:13

here he is with his

2:16

understanding of where we are

2:18

and where we're gonna be.

2:20

Ian Bremmer. Thank

2:25

you for doing this. Absolutely. I

2:27

appreciate you. I am a huge

2:29

fan of yours, and I appreciate

2:31

your friendship. I tell the audience

2:34

every time you're on with me

2:36

that this, if you want to

2:38

know why I think the way

2:40

I do or why I know

2:42

what I know, you know, you

2:44

and what you're doing with your

2:46

outfits, and you've become a clearinghouse

2:48

of ideas for me. Well, the

2:50

friendship is mutual, and I'm very

2:53

happy always to be with you.

2:55

And I was saying Ian before

2:57

we started. Really storied storied career.

2:59

and well warranted, but I honestly

3:01

do believe, and you may not

3:03

want to hear this, but I

3:05

do believe that you are just

3:07

coming in to what is going

3:09

to be the period of most

3:12

need and resonance of your level

3:14

of analysis and understanding of geopolitics.

3:16

I think you're just entering this.

3:18

But you say that for kind

3:20

of a bad reason, right, which

3:22

is that the information environment is

3:24

so falling apart. yes for people

3:26

in this country yes but there's

3:28

a reciprocal right there's a reciprocal

3:31

need so people are looking for

3:33

good faith actors and there's so

3:35

few people that they can look

3:37

at and say so what is

3:39

Ian selling where is he coming

3:41

from you know he doesn't seem

3:43

to bash one of these sides

3:45

enough for me to know his

3:47

type and I just I'm happy,

3:50

I'm happy. Well, you don't be

3:52

long enough to understand that, like,

3:54

I mean, I'll get it wrong

3:56

plenty, but I am a good

3:58

faith author. I'm telling you what

4:00

I actually think. Yes. And so,

4:02

when you look at where we

4:04

are, One, is it remarkable? Do

4:06

you believe historically? We're in a

4:09

special place? Oh yeah. Just because

4:11

of Trump? No, no, no. Trump

4:13

is the principal symptom and beneficiary

4:15

of a breakdown in how people

4:17

think about the US political system.

4:19

But, I mean, much more broadly,

4:21

this is a... a unique global

4:23

moment because the United States is

4:26

now undoing its own global order.

4:28

It's saying the things that the

4:30

Americans historically built up and believe

4:32

in, like collective security and alliances,

4:34

like global free trade and globalization,

4:36

like rule of law, like the

4:38

promotion of democracy, all of those

4:40

things we think have either been

4:42

corrupted. or don't work for us,

4:45

or we're spending too much, other

4:47

people that free riding, whatever the

4:49

constellation of reasons, we're done with

4:51

it. And we're now unwinding that

4:53

order. That is utterly unique. That

4:55

has never happened in our lives

4:57

before, and it's going to create

4:59

enormous chaos all around the world.

5:01

The basic assumption is less involvement,

5:04

more resources at home, less exposure,

5:06

better for America. Absolutely. You know,

5:08

what we've been spending all of

5:10

this and our corporations have gotten

5:12

super rich. But what about the

5:14

average American? And you know, this

5:16

goes back to you look at

5:18

the people that voted in November

5:20

and they voted on issues. They

5:23

voted on immigration and abortion and

5:25

inflation and some of them even

5:27

voted on Gaza. Very few of

5:29

them voted on democracy as their

5:31

top issue. But of those that

5:33

said democracy matters. Most of those

5:35

people voted for Trump. And the

5:37

reason they voted for Trump is

5:39

not because they all thought he

5:42

was such a paragon of American

5:44

virtue, but because they thought that

5:46

over the course of decades, the

5:48

US political system had been captured

5:50

by special interests, by big money,

5:52

Democrat and Republican, and then it

5:54

wasn't helping them. So they wanted

5:56

someone who was going to disrupt

5:58

that system, and Trump was the

6:01

great disruptor that was available on

6:03

the stage. So what's the answer

6:05

for you to, well, what's so

6:07

bad about what he wants to

6:09

do? There is core of truth,

6:11

as you know, Chris. in so

6:13

much of what he says. There's

6:15

a core of truth. It's very

6:18

rare that Trump makes a big

6:20

statement and it's 100% wrong. My

6:22

problem is that when you take

6:24

a chainsaw to things that you

6:26

have built up over a long

6:28

period of time, like NATO, and

6:30

take a chainsaw to the support

6:32

that you've given Ukraine for three

6:34

years, take a chainsaw to USAID.

6:37

Right, and you shut down 87%

6:39

of it. That will have significant

6:41

long-term unintended consequences, which will hurt

6:43

us. Won't just hurt the world.

6:45

Level of confidence in that? Very

6:47

high. Very high. And by the

6:49

way, it won't just hurt us.

6:51

It's also going to hurt lots

6:53

of other people around the world

6:56

who I actually care about as

6:58

a fellow human being. I understand

7:00

that we should care more about

7:02

Americans than people that aren't. American,

7:04

but I also feel like being

7:06

American is kind of a roll

7:08

of the dice. It's kind of

7:10

random chance that you and I

7:12

are so lucky that we happen

7:15

to be Americans. And I feel

7:17

like, at least for those of

7:19

us that are in a position

7:21

of power, that we have some

7:23

obligation to do things for more

7:25

than just Americans. But I wouldn't

7:27

make this argument with you on

7:29

this show if it were only

7:31

about helping people outside this country.

7:34

I think that we are doing

7:36

things that will damage us long

7:38

term. Like, well. I mean, so

7:40

many examples. Trump just made these

7:42

latest announcements on the new tariffs.

7:44

we're going to hit the Canadians

7:46

in the face with. Our closest

7:48

friends, the most integrated economy with

7:50

us globally, and we are making

7:53

them into an adversary. Canadians don't.

7:55

trust us the way they used

7:57

to, they're angry with us, and

7:59

we are undermining our own ability

8:01

to conduct normal business with, to

8:03

attract them as tourists, to engage

8:05

with them in education, all of

8:07

these things that long term, I

8:09

think it is good for us

8:12

to have friends that we don't

8:14

have to worry so much about.

8:16

Agreed. So the counter is, you

8:18

know, and you, Cuomo, is soft.

8:20

And you know, I'm softer than

8:22

you are, Chris. I mean, just

8:24

take a look. No, you're smarter

8:26

than I am. You know, it's

8:29

softer. I might not be softer

8:31

than head. But you know, you

8:33

know, very strong. So they say,

8:35

you know, you guys, you care,

8:37

you just care about us more.

8:39

Canada gets it, corny. He's a

8:41

banker. These are tactics. You guys

8:43

are wringing your hands about tariffs.

8:45

One, they really haven't been put

8:48

in place yet. They're not going

8:50

to be long term. This is

8:52

just how Trump gets into the

8:54

table. You may not like it,

8:56

but he won the election. And

8:58

making his words reality is a

9:00

mistake, and it's a gratuitous mistake,

9:02

because you know he doesn't mean

9:04

it that way. It's not Bill

9:07

Clinton saying he's going to put

9:09

tariffs. It's a guy who uses

9:11

hyperbole. the way you use oxygen.

9:13

So don't worry so much. That's

9:15

the counter. I get it from

9:17

all of his people. It's a

9:19

useful counter. It applied in a

9:21

much greater way in his first

9:23

term where he was surrounded by

9:26

people that he needed who were

9:28

sensible adults and who were willing

9:30

and capable of pushing back on

9:32

him, giving him good information that

9:34

sometimes he didn't want to hear.

9:36

and adapting his strategy over time.

9:38

That is not true this time

9:40

around. He's 78, so he's a

9:42

lot older. He was shot. in

9:45

the head a few months ago,

9:47

that affects you, right? I mean,

9:49

when like someone tries to assassinate

9:51

you and it's this close, changes

9:53

your view. So he thinks he

9:55

has very little time, he has

9:57

to get things done fast, and

9:59

he's much more powerful. He's surrounded

10:01

by people, some of whom are

10:04

very capable, some of whom should

10:06

never be in cabinet, but they

10:08

all are yes men. and women.

10:10

They're all like, you are right

10:12

about everything, sir. They're not willing

10:14

to push back. And it's not

10:16

just cabinet. We see this with

10:18

CEOs around him now. We see

10:21

this with a whole bunch of

10:23

even global leaders, many of whom

10:25

are scared to push back because

10:27

they recognize that, you know, they

10:29

don't want to get hit in

10:31

the face by the most powerful

10:33

man in the world right now.

10:35

Right? And he is that. He

10:37

is that. Oh yeah. All day.

10:40

all day. And so I think

10:42

that for those that are saying

10:44

don't worry, he's actually not going

10:46

to be that disruptive. He's really

10:48

transactional. I think he was transactional

10:50

in his first term. I think

10:52

this time around, domestically, he's not

10:54

transactional. He's a revolutionary. He's actually

10:56

really trying to fundamentally change how

10:59

business gets done. in this country

11:01

and in our political system. And

11:03

internationally, he's not transactional, he's predatory,

11:05

where he's stronger than other folks,

11:07

because it's not about a win-win

11:09

for everybody. It's about, I'm making

11:11

the rules, and you're going to

11:13

either accept those rules, or I'm

11:15

going to punch you in the

11:18

face. And you can ask the

11:20

Canadians, you can ask the Germans,

11:22

ask them if they believe that

11:24

Trump is transactional. Or is he

11:26

a predator? And they'll say, oh

11:28

no, we know what he is

11:30

right now. Why do you think

11:32

he doesn't go after big dogs,

11:34

strong guys, people who can also

11:37

punch in the face? For that

11:39

reason. I think he would like

11:41

to avoid getting punched in the

11:43

face. It's not a stupid guy,

11:45

right? I mean, I think he's

11:47

much... So for example, on Europe,

11:49

when you talk about trade... which

11:51

they have in their core competency

11:53

and they coordinate as the EU

11:56

as a block which is comparable

11:58

size of the US and we

12:00

know they can regulate the hell

12:02

out of things and they got

12:04

a lot of red tape and

12:06

he's much more careful with them

12:08

on trade collectively than he is

12:10

with the Canadians or the Mexicans.

12:13

Why? Because it's very easy for

12:15

him to take a sledgehammer to

12:17

the Keynes and the Mexicans. So

12:19

it is a straight bully play.

12:21

It's a great power play. I

12:23

mean, call it what you want,

12:25

but I mean, and it frequently

12:27

works, by the way. I mean,

12:29

he's gotten to where he is.

12:32

Right. I mean, not only a

12:34

billionaire, not only president once, but

12:36

also the greatest comeback story in

12:38

the history of American politics, Donald

12:40

Trump. How many people have written

12:42

this guy off? Me. I must

12:44

have said it. A dozen times.

12:46

can't overcome this. Now, I think

12:48

that that's what he has going

12:51

for him most, which is, this

12:53

is the fault of everyone else.

12:55

Our political system, there has been

12:57

such a miasma of bullshit and

12:59

inaction and incrementalism that this is

13:01

what you get. When you have

13:03

a political system that is inherently

13:05

corrupted by money. Where it was

13:07

well before Trump's president. And an

13:10

inside game. And a lot of

13:12

things don't get worked on. And

13:14

everything is talk. And they're all

13:16

kind of on the take one

13:18

way or another. And there is

13:20

a chasm between Main Street and

13:22

Wall Street. This is what you

13:24

get. Is a guy who comes

13:26

from Wall Street metaphorically. And is

13:29

an elite. knows the establishment and

13:31

hates it as much as everybody

13:33

else who's not part of it

13:35

does. This is what you get.

13:37

It's not his fault. But it

13:39

isn't the only thing you get.

13:41

I mean you also get... Bernie

13:43

Sanders, right, who is like fundamentally

13:45

not a corrupt human being, way

13:48

too old to be president, but

13:50

nonetheless was someone that in my

13:52

view was much more standing up

13:54

for the average person for Joe

13:56

worker. But he wasn't the look

13:58

they wanted. I know. Not the

14:00

orange face thing. But the thing

14:02

that we know about. Doesn't believe

14:05

in God, doesn't believe in Kevin.

14:07

But the thing that we are.

14:09

Trump believes in God, who knows?

14:11

But I mean, look. He's got

14:13

a very tight relationship with God.

14:15

I understand. I understand. Believe me,

14:17

it's his favorite book. I mean,

14:19

even more than Art of the

14:21

Deal. Love all the stories. But,

14:24

I mean, we know that if

14:26

there's one thing that is really

14:28

true of Trump, it's that you

14:30

can pay him with money. He

14:32

will do what you want if

14:34

you give him cash, which is

14:36

not something that frankly the average

14:38

American can or will benefit from.

14:40

That's the real problem is that

14:43

the level of kleptocracy, which is

14:45

already at staggering levels in the

14:47

United States, has just become greater.

14:49

If you really want to understand

14:51

the majority of Trump's moves in

14:53

policy, you should figure out, okay,

14:55

who are the folks that have

14:57

managed to get him a bunch

14:59

of money? What do they want?

15:02

And that's why he's doing this,

15:04

why the crypto industry is doing

15:06

so incredibly well right now, because

15:08

that was the sector that gave

15:10

everything to Trump. And so he's

15:12

going to give them what he

15:14

wants. And this is not helping

15:16

the average American, like not at

15:18

all. If you really believed, I

15:21

mean, he's great on circuses, right?

15:23

Don't get me wrong. He's an

15:25

incredibly entertaining, he's funny, and he

15:27

drives a lot of people insane.

15:29

And he makes you, if you're

15:31

someone that wants to see a

15:33

whole bunch of people that you

15:35

disagree with politically, lose their collective

15:37

shit, then Trump is your guy.

15:40

See, that's, I get that. But

15:42

see, but that's a lot. You

15:44

say it's a lot. But you

15:46

asked me, the question you asked

15:48

me wasn't that. The question asked

15:50

me is whether I think this

15:52

is good for America long term.

15:54

Right. And the answer is no,

15:56

because I don't think the average

15:59

American is well served by this.

16:01

As someone who grew up in

16:03

the projects. Right. Right. I just

16:05

see these people getting shad on

16:07

and shad on and shad on

16:09

again and people that come in,

16:11

you know, that are, that have

16:13

a circus show when the circus

16:16

leaves town. What's left? I'm with

16:18

you. And it's my concern also.

16:20

I have no idea how to

16:22

address it. how to bridge it,

16:24

how to brook it, any metaphor

16:26

you want to use. I don't

16:28

know what to do about it.

16:30

But I share the concern because

16:32

I share the interest. What you

16:35

do about it is you don't

16:37

turn the knob to 11 on

16:39

every perceived slight. What you do

16:41

about it is when there is

16:43

something that is truly going to

16:45

damage the country, that's when you

16:47

actually train your fire. I don't

16:49

care what the left says. You

16:51

and I are big boys. I

16:54

know. Well listen, I signed up

16:56

for this, but I'm saying it's

16:58

hard not having a team in

17:00

a team-based media business, which is

17:02

what we're in right now. Yeah.

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So the movie Snatch, there's a

19:43

great, there are 100 great lines,

19:45

but there's a great line that

19:47

really was the moment that I

19:49

realized this is what this is

19:51

what Trump is. He is going

19:53

to win. And I had him

19:55

winning against Hillary early. I won

19:57

a lot of money on that

20:00

election. One dollar bets. I had

20:02

just gone to like covered four

20:04

or five of the rallies in

20:06

snatch and I didn't by the

20:08

way in last one I definitely

20:10

thought he was going to win

20:12

first one I didn't think the

20:14

in the rallies the disconnect of

20:16

because we kept saying not 20,000

20:19

people 30,000 people 50,000 people 60,000

20:21

people whatever we're talking about tens

20:23

of millions but he connected but

20:25

they were the same everywhere in

20:27

the country they were all saying

20:29

the same things so the guy

20:31

says he's going to feed them

20:33

to the pigs that guy In

20:35

snatch, you see snatch? Oh, fucking

20:38

amazing. Anyway, the guy says, do

20:40

you know what nemesis means? And

20:42

he comes up with the definition

20:44

of a righteous infliction of retribution

20:46

manifested by the appropriate agent. In

20:48

this case, an horrible cut, me,

20:50

is what he says. That's Trump.

20:52

If you're mad at the system,

20:54

if you feel... that they don't

20:57

give a shit because they don't

20:59

respect you because you're not part

21:01

of what they need. He will

21:03

make them pay. He will punish

21:05

them. He is not a cure.

21:07

He is a virus to the

21:09

political corpus to make it sick

21:11

and vomit and get febrile and

21:13

hopefully when it comes out of

21:16

it, its new state of health

21:18

will be more fair to people.

21:20

Because it will now fear them

21:22

because they will have whooped its

21:24

ass. Yeah That's what people are

21:26

banking on that's what are yeah,

21:28

I get that they're banking on

21:30

it, but they're okay with that

21:32

not happening as long as there's

21:35

a lot of pain and damage

21:37

done to their enemies. Yes. And

21:39

that of course is the problem

21:41

because I would bet on the

21:43

pain and damage but I would

21:45

bet against what happens as we

21:47

come out of it. What happens

21:49

is that the Chinese are in

21:52

a far better system. They're in

21:54

a far better position. And why

21:56

would we want that? There are

21:58

a principal adversary. They run a

22:00

system that as bad as the

22:02

American system, as hypocritical as the

22:04

American system, the Chinese system is

22:06

worse. And we don't want a

22:08

world where their lack of accountability,

22:11

their complete lack of transparency, their

22:13

surveillance state. actually has far more

22:15

influence all over the world, and

22:17

that is precisely what Trump is

22:19

setting up to do for them

22:21

over the long term. That's precisely

22:23

what he's doing. Why? Well, because

22:25

the United States, think about the

22:27

billions of people around the world,

22:30

they have belt and road, they

22:32

understand the soft power matters, they

22:34

understand the economic investments matter, and

22:36

the United States takes all those

22:38

countries and hits them in the

22:40

mouth. So what Ian is describing

22:42

right now, is an important point

22:44

that I only know observationally. Every

22:46

time you go to a major

22:49

crisis around the world, the Chinese

22:51

are there building something. I shit

22:53

you not. And I don't say

22:55

this. I don't say this so

22:57

that you think bad things about

22:59

the Chinese. It's not my point.

23:01

To me, it's all about advantage.

23:03

I'd rather have it being built

23:05

than nothing be built. Like when

23:08

it was in armies? Yeah. Like

23:10

people are still pulling people. The

23:12

earth moving machines? All Chinese. Twenty

23:14

years ago, by the way. That

23:16

wasn't true. that we actually got

23:18

a lot by having our place

23:20

in these international organizations. So we're

23:22

going to pull out of the

23:24

UN. You saw Elon, so we've

23:27

got to pull out of the

23:29

UN. You know who becomes the

23:31

most important? China. Immediately. All day

23:33

long. All the appointments. Yeah. Them.

23:35

They're the ones coming out saying,

23:37

we're multilateralist, absolutely. Love these workmen.

23:39

climate change, transition energy. We've got

23:41

people saying there's no climate change,

23:44

we're pulling out of Paris climate

23:46

accord. You know who's going to

23:48

drive all that? You know as

23:50

the best technology at scale for

23:52

post-carbon energy? China. Who's going to

23:54

be aligning with everybody? China. Who's

23:56

going to be aligning with them?

23:58

Everybody. Why would we want that?

24:00

I understand. Trump's 78. He's not

24:03

thinking about what's going to happen

24:05

in 10 years. But you and

24:07

I are, we're still going to

24:09

be around. We're still going to

24:11

be around. I'm a patriot. I

24:13

don't like seeing that. Why isn't

24:15

this a first step towards getting

24:17

our shit together and making us

24:19

a more formidable adversary against China

24:22

because we're stronger at home? It

24:24

should be if you don't at

24:26

the same time destroy everything that

24:28

is important that you've built around

24:30

the world. You can't only focus

24:32

on the United States when China's

24:34

focusing on everything else. Doesn't make

24:36

any sense. Why isn't it? excuse

24:38

that's just temporary, shaking everybody up,

24:41

letting them know they've been on

24:43

the tit for too long, and

24:45

he's going to reset everything. This

24:47

is just how he does it.

24:49

He doesn't play the game. He

24:51

messes with everybody's head, but he's

24:53

not going to shed our allies.

24:55

He's just going to make them

24:57

earn it. Well, again, look at

25:00

USAID. Right? And we spend, the

25:02

Americans, spend 40% of the world's

25:04

humanitarian aid comes from the United

25:06

States. They have shut down 87%

25:08

of it. And I will tell

25:10

you, Chris, there were absolutely programs

25:12

that should be shut down. There

25:14

was stupid shit that 99% of

25:16

the taxpayers would say, why the

25:19

hell is my money going for

25:21

that? But there was also combating

25:23

malaria. There was also fighting AIDS.

25:25

There was also dealing with children

25:27

hunger. And in all of those

25:29

countries, we are out. And people

25:31

dying because of us. It's completely

25:33

unnecessary. Unless you're saying the cruelty

25:35

is the point. And I don't

25:38

even think that. Let other people

25:40

pay more, let these countries come

25:42

back to us and ask for

25:44

it the right way and give

25:46

us something in exchange. We get

25:48

all sorts of things in exchange.

25:50

We have better relations with these

25:52

countries because we're on the ground.

25:55

We have political influence. Shithold countries.

25:57

Give us the minerals, give us

25:59

the oil, give us something because

26:01

that's the, although I gotta say

26:03

the mineral rights deal. with Ukraine

26:05

is smart because it's going to

26:07

put a corporate footprint in places

26:09

that Russia now can't bomb. Because

26:11

if you bomb and you hit

26:14

DuPont you got a real problem.

26:16

You tell me how many years

26:18

before a single dollar and a

26:20

single action investment goes in. Especially

26:22

it sounds like you're getting something

26:24

better. Yeah of course I can

26:26

understand that that is what the

26:28

marketing is going to be and

26:30

Trump is a great marketing guy.

26:33

He'll make this sound great just

26:35

like he makes the Riviera. out

26:37

of Gaza sound great. It's never

26:39

going to happen. Well, that's not

26:41

going to happen, but the mineral

26:43

deal will happen. You're saying it

26:45

doesn't happen anytime soon. I'm saying

26:47

that the mineral deal, well, over

26:49

the course of a Trump presidency,

26:52

there will be no money invested

26:54

in minerals on the ground in

26:56

Ukraine. I would make that very

26:58

strong bet. I think that that

27:00

is, it is all smoke and

27:02

murder. So how do you see

27:04

what Tucker and I were chewing

27:06

on about this to me? 180

27:08

degree turn in what Ukraine is

27:11

through the lens of America's interests.

27:13

Well, first of all, I want

27:15

to thank you, Chris, for your

27:17

service, for chatting with Tucker so

27:19

that I don't have to. I

27:21

think that's very important. You should.

27:23

It'd be hard for you because,

27:25

you know, I'm much more of

27:27

a mouth breather. So, you know,

27:30

he and I, you know, there's

27:32

a different level of it. You're

27:34

so sophisticated. Although, you know, Ian

27:36

hints to it every once in

27:38

a while. There's a lot of

27:40

street. in Ian's background. I know

27:42

you get overwhelmed by the air

27:44

condition and the decorative hose, but

27:47

there he is an H-O-S-E. by

27:49

the way. Just want to be

27:51

very clear, Chris. He is the

27:53

American dream. He is somebody who

27:55

showed that this system can work

27:57

and create greatness if you have

27:59

it inside of you and the

28:01

desire to work it, which is

28:03

why I've always been such a

28:06

fan. And I can now be

28:08

myself and it turns out this

28:10

is me. for better and for

28:12

worse. You're an artifice. No artifice.

28:14

You must have had a hard

28:16

time in the hood, but I'm

28:18

telling you, you got out. It's

28:20

absolutely. I needed to get it

28:22

out because I was going to

28:25

get my ass kicked. That's very

28:27

clear. Yeah. So the Ukraine paradigm

28:29

shift, I'm probably oversimplifying, but I

28:31

really believe it came down to

28:33

that phone call. And when Trump

28:35

was right, when Trump was in

28:37

there, the perfect, the perfect, absolutely

28:39

perfect. So he hated Solansky, does

28:41

it that? So then he leaves,

28:44

and America, I get fired, America

28:46

falls in love with Ukraine as

28:48

the new Americans who are fighting

28:50

the oppressor in Russia the way

28:52

we did with England, everybody's got

28:54

a blue and yellow on. I

28:56

become so dislocated and so discomfited

28:58

by what's happening. I actually go

29:00

to Ukraine on my own dime.

29:03

And I get it when I'm

29:05

there, like, wow, these fuckers are

29:07

really coming together over, like they're

29:09

willing to put it all on

29:11

the line to be free. And

29:13

they have a cultural connection to

29:15

these guys, and they still, they

29:17

will fight to the death for

29:19

this. This is very brave. And

29:22

now, Tucker Carlson is one of

29:24

a host of influential people, including

29:26

our president, who look at Ukraine

29:28

and see Russia. Well, so I

29:30

understand, first of all. The United

29:32

States has spent about 115 billion

29:34

dollars, okay, on American firms and

29:36

contractors, so it's you. Americans are

29:39

benefiting from it, but it's the

29:41

military industrial complex. The fact that

29:43

that money could have been spent

29:45

on other things, instead it was

29:47

spent on defending Ukraine, which is

29:49

far away. And the Europeans have

29:51

spent about 130 billion, 135 billion,

29:53

which is like roughly parody, they're

29:55

slightly larger population. Shouldn't they be

29:58

spending a lot more given... that

30:00

it's right there and you're like

30:02

yes so that's number one number

30:04

two over the course of the

30:06

last two years the lines of

30:08

the front in fighting have virtually

30:10

not changed and like a lot

30:12

of people are dying we've gone

30:14

through Afghanistan for 20 years we

30:17

recognize like we spent trillions and

30:19

so many people died senselessly well

30:21

why don't we stop this right

30:23

I mean you don't need to

30:25

say that Zelenski is a dictator

30:27

and he's not, you don't need

30:29

that argument to say we should

30:31

put some pressure, real pressure, on

30:33

ending the war. And yes, ending

30:36

the war means Ukraine is not

30:38

going to get all their land

30:40

back. Not because we think it's

30:42

right, but because there isn't a

30:44

plausible way to get Russia off

30:46

of that. Now, the problem is

30:48

not that reality. You and I

30:50

can have that conversation, and by

30:52

the way, we can have a

30:55

conversation with Mike Walton, Marco Rubio.

30:57

That'll be a smart conversation. The

30:59

problem is that when you go

31:01

from there to acting by yourself,

31:03

not with your allies, because the

31:05

NATO is more important than Ukraine.

31:07

And one thing I get Biden

31:09

credit on, he didn't end the

31:11

war, didn't push to end the

31:14

war, but he did keep the

31:16

allies together with the United States

31:18

in lock step. We didn't do

31:20

stuff away from them away from

31:22

them. Trump. calls Putin for 90

31:24

minutes, allies don't even know he's

31:26

doing it. Trump gets Ukraine in

31:28

a room, right? He beats him

31:31

up, calls him a dictator. Europeans

31:33

are spending just as much money.

31:35

What the hell's happened to the

31:37

alliance? So why wouldn't we want

31:39

to do this? with our friends.

31:41

You want to end the war?

31:43

Let's end it together. And we

31:45

have more influence. We can do

31:47

that. We can get our friends

31:50

in a room privately and say

31:52

we're going to end this war.

31:54

Why do you think he's doing

31:56

it that way? Because he promised

31:58

doing the campaign. He doesn't understand

32:00

their need for them or he

32:02

believes they want to keep it

32:04

going? Number one, he doesn't care.

32:06

I think he thinks the allies

32:09

are expendable. It's exactly what he

32:11

did when he pulled the troops

32:13

out of Afghanistan. You had allies

32:15

of the United States that were

32:17

fighting shoulder to shoulder with Americans

32:19

for 20 years, and Trump ends

32:21

the war. It pulls out the

32:23

troops, right? And he does a

32:25

deal with the Taliban. He doesn't

32:28

engage the Afghan government. were our

32:30

partners on the ground and he

32:32

doesn't even talk to the Europeans

32:34

or the golfies or the rest

32:36

that had sent those troops to

32:38

fight with us. Now, the stakes

32:40

are a lot higher for Ukraine

32:42

because that's in Europe, but it's

32:44

the same playbook. It's not like

32:47

he hasn't done this before. He

32:49

doesn't. care about allies. He's bigger,

32:51

he's more powerful, he's mean to

32:53

talk to you. He also gets

32:55

the cover of it being someone

32:57

else's mess. Afghanistan, Biden all day,

32:59

botched, terrible, he had to fix

33:01

it, he had to save it,

33:03

Ukraine, Biden, let it go on

33:06

too long. Like Tucker has this

33:08

line that I've heard from a

33:10

lot of these guys. Russia won.

33:12

Russia beat us. We couldn't beat

33:14

Russia. And it's a really interesting

33:16

flip of the reality. And I

33:18

had to remind him in the

33:20

interview, although I didn't really have

33:22

to, he knows this, we all

33:25

thought Russia was going to blow

33:27

through in about 72 hours. And

33:29

like three days. And he does

33:31

not see it that way. He

33:33

sees it. And Trump does also.

33:35

Even his own kids, they say,

33:37

I'm telling you, they believe this.

33:39

Russia can end it like that.

33:42

They're not, because they're just trying

33:44

to let us know. that NATO

33:46

can expand. And they're not using

33:48

any of their real military that

33:50

they could or their citizenry. They're

33:52

using the prisoners because they don't

33:54

really want them to have sacrificed

33:56

for them. They have had over

33:58

850,000 casualties in this war. The

34:01

Russians... have. And it is absolutely,

34:03

they've had to orient 40% of

34:05

their GDP towards destructive non-productive assets

34:07

in a war that just get

34:09

chewed up and wasted. So this

34:11

is horrible for them, but they

34:13

believe that they can outlast the

34:15

Americans and the Europeans. And you

34:17

know what? They're right. Right now,

34:20

I mean, because it seems that

34:22

we want out. Now, my understanding

34:24

is that Europe won't continue it

34:26

without us. If he doesn't cut

34:28

a deal, but the deal is,

34:30

look, I'm getting out. So that

34:32

they will continue it with us,

34:34

without us. Do you believe that?

34:36

I think that's probably right. They,

34:39

the problem is that who's they?

34:41

My mother would also say, who's

34:43

they? You got a rat in

34:45

your pocket? Like, let's talk about

34:47

it. And, you know, there are

34:49

lots of people. in Europe that

34:51

will continue to stick with the

34:53

Europeans no matter what, the Balts,

34:55

the Nordics, the Poles, right? And

34:58

I mean, because this is all

35:00

in for them. The Poles are

35:02

now saying, we need nukes. polls,

35:04

like already spending, they're moving to

35:06

5% of GDP defense spend. That's

35:08

a lot more than the US

35:10

spends, right? And Poland's a real

35:12

country, it's a real economy, right?

35:14

And they've taken, I mean, millions

35:17

of Ukrainians. Yeah, he's an impressive

35:19

leader, that guy. I've gotten, I

35:21

got to watch them, I got

35:23

to watch them a little bit

35:25

of close. He's an impressive leader,

35:27

that guy. I've gotten, I got

35:29

to watch him. to say, I

35:31

don't want to say the Europeans

35:34

won't without reflecting the fact that

35:36

there are people, there are countries

35:38

in Europe that feel like this

35:40

is existential. They really do. But

35:42

the Europeans as a whole, I

35:44

think, are not going to send

35:46

meaningful numbers of troops on the

35:48

ground to act as a backstop

35:50

unless the Americans are there. I

35:53

think that's true. Having said that,

35:55

the Europeans in that environment will...

35:57

spend vastly more on their own

35:59

defense in order to be independent

36:01

from the United States. So explain

36:03

the downside to that, because where

36:05

we are now with it is,

36:07

to your point about core of

36:09

truth. Sounds good. You know, they

36:12

have really been riding on us

36:14

for a while. Like we have

36:16

to be the muscle in every

36:18

situation. Why don't they build it

36:20

up? The Germans, the French, you

36:22

know, all these other guys. Why

36:24

don't they build up their armies?

36:26

Let them go in there and

36:28

let us be the money for

36:31

a change. Let us be the

36:33

ancillary support, especially when it's incontinent

36:35

for them. What's wrong with that?

36:37

Well, first of all, I would

36:39

argue that Trump... and Biden and

36:41

Putin have all been successful in

36:43

getting the Europeans to ramp up

36:45

their defense spend without throwing the

36:47

alliance under the bus over the

36:50

last 10 years. That's been meaningful.

36:52

Trump pushed on this in his

36:54

first term and he had some

36:56

success. Putin then invaded. and that

36:58

got them to do a lot

37:00

more and that was successful right

37:02

that's different from doing so much

37:04

that you break the relationship now

37:06

i understand that sounds like a

37:09

nuanced sort of argument but there's

37:11

a big difference between spending more

37:13

and working together and urgency doing

37:15

everything you can because you recognize

37:17

you can't rely on the Americans

37:19

anymore and breaking it what do

37:21

we get from coordinating with the

37:23

Europeans even if they're comparatively weak.

37:26

Well, when we want a joint

37:28

policy on something, like when the

37:30

one time that we actually used

37:32

Article V in NATO collective security,

37:34

when we were attacked in 9-11,

37:36

who came with us? Everyone did.

37:38

Everyone did. They won't do that

37:40

again. Does that matter to us?

37:42

I think it should. Secondly, when

37:45

we have issues because... The Americans

37:47

are technologically dominant, the Chinese are

37:49

technologically dominant, no one else is.

37:51

We go to the Europeans first

37:53

and foremost and we say we

37:55

want you to coordinate with us

37:57

on our semiconductor policy and the

37:59

Dutch stand up immediately and they've

38:01

got world-class capabilities. Yeah, we're going

38:04

to work with the United States.

38:06

Are they going to do that

38:08

next time? I'm not so sure

38:10

they are. So you're not going

38:12

to get the coordination from the

38:14

world's largest common market. They will

38:16

see us as adversaries, not friends.

38:18

And when Trump says, You know,

38:20

the media paints it one way,

38:23

but you know all these people

38:25

love me. They're my friends. These

38:27

European countries, you know, I know

38:29

all the leaders, that they're my

38:31

friends, that, you know, we worked

38:33

at just fine. Do you buy

38:35

that? One percent. Not even one

38:37

percent. No. I mean, of course,

38:39

there are people in Europe that

38:42

there are absolutely people around the

38:44

world that are supportive of Trump.

38:46

Yeah, we were like five years

38:48

behind here, right? There was there

38:50

was populist to the right movements

38:52

through Europe and Eastern Europe five

38:54

years before. And understandably so. And

38:56

I get why Brexit happened, even

38:58

though I think it was economically

39:01

really damaging for the UK, I

39:03

get why you've had this, you

39:05

know, sort of resurgence of that

39:07

sort of Eurosceptic sentiment. But on

39:09

the back of the pandemic, people

39:11

realized they actually needed Europe. On

39:13

the back of the Russian invasion

39:15

of Ukraine, they recognized they need

39:18

Europe. On the back of Trump,

39:20

people recognized they need Europe. And

39:22

so I think he's wrong that

39:24

you're going to suddenly have in

39:26

five years time a whole bunch

39:28

of people that want to break

39:30

Europe apart. And that making Europe

39:32

great again with populism will not

39:34

be... We all want to follow

39:37

Trump. It won't be a bunch

39:39

of Victor Orbanes. Georgia Maloney, for

39:41

all of her friendship with Trump

39:43

and Elon Musk, is first and

39:45

foremost pro-EU. And she's trying to

39:47

act as a bridge with the

39:49

Americans so that they don't get

39:51

really undermined and fragmented. But she

39:53

has been very, very strong. Her

39:56

policy on Russia, Ukraine, completely aligned

39:58

with the EU. Her economic policies,

40:00

completely aligned with the EU. Even

40:02

though on migration, she's with Trump.

40:04

But frankly, everyone in Europe is

40:06

with Trump. Because there... it hit

40:08

Europe before it hit the United

40:10

States. Remember Angela Merkel? Right? I

40:12

mean she got it wrong. She's

40:15

like no we'll let in all

40:17

these Syrians and everyone's no we

40:19

won't. Like we don't want those

40:21

people here. We're not already integrated

40:23

those people. That led to a

40:25

much earlier sense of populism than

40:27

we had in the United States

40:29

driving those policies. So it's complicated.

40:31

But the point is that the

40:34

most important alliance in the world

40:36

of countries that in principle trusted

40:38

each other, were aligned with each

40:40

other, did, you know, built that

40:42

trust into something that was greater

40:44

than just a relationship on security,

40:46

on the economy, on peace and

40:48

stability around the world, has been

40:50

the transatlantic relationship. And I know,

40:53

I've never seen any level of

40:55

damage close to what Trump has

40:57

managed in this first fifty days.

40:59

damage not just change damage I

41:01

think that this is now I

41:03

think the single thing he has

41:05

accomplished on the global stage in

41:07

his first 50 days that really

41:10

matters that's permanent has been helping

41:12

destroy the US-European relationship that's been

41:14

his signature accomplishment of his first

41:16

50s he's done other things he's

41:18

gotten a ceasefire in Gaza Hezbollah

41:20

Lebanon right he started a trade

41:22

war with the Canadians which will

41:24

probably lead both of them to

41:26

ultimately do a whole bunch of

41:29

things the Americans want, much easier

41:31

with Mexico, much harder with Canada

41:33

because they're in an electoral cycle,

41:35

easy with Mexico because she's getting

41:37

85% approval rating as the president,

41:39

but the really impactful thing that

41:41

he's done on the global stage

41:43

in the first 50 days has

41:45

been against her. And you see

41:48

no value in the counter that.

41:50

Well, he's disrupted it. He hasn't

41:52

destroyed it. They're more responsive to

41:54

us now. They know they have

41:56

to give more. They have to

41:58

pull their weight. These are positive

42:00

changes. Permanent damage. So you got

42:02

to understand that the Europeans are

42:04

getting hit by Trump in three

42:07

different ways at the same time.

42:09

First is the trade. stuff and

42:11

they know that they dealt with

42:13

it before not surprising and they're

42:15

strong incompetent on trade they can

42:17

handle themselves but that's one issue.

42:19

Secondly is on Ukraine and Trump

42:21

not just saying I want to

42:23

end the war saying he wants

42:26

to end the war according with

42:28

the Europeans they would get that.

42:30

Trump saying I want to build

42:32

a relationship with your principal enemy

42:34

and I'm going to do it

42:36

without talking with you right that

42:38

that was a fundamental. to undermining

42:40

how the Europeans think about the

42:42

US. And then third is Trump

42:45

and Elon and Vance actually saying

42:47

that you aren't democracies, that you're

42:49

our principal national security problem because

42:51

you refuse to work with these

42:53

anti-Europeans, particularly in Germany, the AFD,

42:55

who the Germans see as a

42:57

neo-Nazi party. So I mean just

42:59

core. core to their identity for

43:01

rule of law and for democracy

43:04

and instead the Trump folks saying

43:06

you guys are a bunch of

43:08

woke libtards and you know that

43:10

we're not going to tolerate that.

43:12

So again it is true that

43:14

America now is run by a

43:16

leadership that actually has some fundamentally

43:18

different values than a lot of

43:21

Europeans leaders do but the reality

43:23

is those three things together at

43:25

the same time have convinced the

43:27

Europeans that they cannot rely on

43:29

the United States. What do you

43:31

think motivates Trump's disposition towards Russia

43:33

and Putin? Well, I think there

43:35

are a few things. One is

43:37

that I don't think Putin disrespects

43:40

Trump in a way that European

43:42

leaders do. I think that when

43:44

he... I remember when Trump went

43:46

to the first G20 back in

43:48

2017 when he was first president,

43:50

and you got all these leaders

43:52

around the table, and you've got

43:54

these well-educated elite Europeans that don't

43:56

respect Trump, that snigger... about him

43:59

when he's not around and sometimes

44:01

even with an earshot and he

44:03

gets the intelligence he knows what

44:05

they actually think and then he

44:07

sees just just like Obama by

44:09

the way. Right? And Trump takes

44:11

that very personally. And Putin treats

44:13

Trump the way MBS does, from

44:15

Saudi Arabia, treats him just like

44:18

a normal guy. So number one,

44:20

I think Trump has a level

44:22

of affinity with someone who he

44:24

believes treats him with a level

44:26

of actual respect. Secondly, I think

44:28

that Trump sees Russia as willing

44:30

to play ball with him commercially.

44:32

in the way that the Saudis

44:34

do and the way the Europeans

44:37

won't. I mean, the Saudis have

44:39

done all sorts of business with

44:41

Trump family and other priorities that

44:43

are interesting. They are super transactional

44:45

in ways that, I mean, corruption

44:47

is not a thing. It's that

44:49

the family owns Saudi Arabia. It's

44:51

an extended family. So they're more

44:53

than willing. Putin's same thing. So

44:56

I think that there will be

44:58

significant, I think the cash register

45:00

will be open for Trump at

45:02

al if a deal with Russia

45:04

is done. And how transparent will

45:06

we be? How much will we

45:08

find out? I have no idea,

45:10

but I suspect that that plays

45:13

into this. And then thirdly, is

45:15

the fact that Trump sees himself

45:17

as a deal maker. He doesn't

45:19

like Ukraine for reasons that you

45:21

and I've already spoken about. Putin

45:23

has reasons to want to do

45:25

a broader rapprochement with the United

45:27

States. He hates. There's an alignment

45:29

between Trump and Putin on Europe.

45:32

The biggest difference between Trump and

45:34

previous American presidents is that Trump

45:36

thinks that a strong EU is

45:38

bad for the United States. I

45:40

happen to think a strong EU

45:42

is good for the US. In

45:44

a fragmented world, I think having

45:46

large countries that are powerful, that

45:48

are basically aligned with rule of

45:51

law, is good. Trump thinks, no,

45:53

no, no, no, I don't care

45:55

if you're aligned with rule of

45:57

law, I want a whole bunch

45:59

of weak countries around there that

46:01

I can deal with individually so

46:03

I can beat on them and

46:05

get what I want. It's a

46:07

very Chinese approach to rule of

46:10

the jungle approach. to global affairs.

46:12

So Trump wants a weaker, more

46:14

fragmented EU. When Trump used to

46:16

meet with Macron, he'd always say,

46:18

when are you doing Brexit? Always

46:20

do that, right? He liked Brexit.

46:22

I thought Brexit was a good

46:24

thing. He wants France to do

46:26

a Brexit. He wants France to

46:29

do a Brexit. He wants all

46:31

of them to fall apart. Well,

46:33

by the way, Putin loves that.

46:35

Putin wants Europe to fall apart,

46:37

right? Who's Putin's best friend in

46:39

Europe? Right? Because, I mean, for

46:41

Putin, it's actually my backyard, and

46:43

I want to be able to

46:45

control more of it. For Trump,

46:48

it's just these guys are competitive

46:50

with me, and I don't want

46:52

them to be competitive. But either

46:54

way, there's real alignment. So I

46:56

think that there are actually a

46:58

number of reasons. I wouldn't call

47:00

them good reasons if you think

47:02

about U.S. strategic influence on the

47:05

global stage long term, but I

47:07

understand why Trump feels that way,

47:09

why Trump would want to spend

47:11

a lot of time with and

47:13

do ideal with Putin. Being unburdened

47:15

by principle is an interesting X

47:17

factor here. There really is. Trump

47:19

doesn't care of Putin's a bad

47:21

guy. Absolutely are. And that's unusual

47:24

for us, because really, we've been,

47:26

our leaders have been overweighted on

47:28

that one consideration, right? I now

47:30

have, you know, it's not my

47:32

theory, but reading more and more

47:34

and more about the Cold War,

47:36

I feel we got duped. I

47:38

feel that it was a way

47:40

to build up the military-industrial complex.

47:43

They sure, they have nukes, but

47:45

not really tactical nukes, and they

47:47

were never going to be formidable

47:49

against us, and it was just

47:51

a way for us to build

47:53

up against them and create 50

47:55

years of stupidity that were unnecessary.

47:57

Yeah, the CIA estimates of Soviet

47:59

strength were massively overweight. I remember

48:02

when Sam Nunn... and Dick Lugger

48:04

were cleaning up the nukes and

48:06

they contacted somebody at ABC and

48:08

they wound up sending me to

48:10

outer Siberia, which may have been

48:12

just the goal all along, to

48:14

go to this place. called Shucia

48:16

and to survey the nukes that

48:18

they were collected. And I remember

48:21

showing up there and this was

48:23

in, I don't know, I don't

48:25

know what it was, late 90s

48:27

or early 2000s, something like that,

48:29

early 2000. And they're keeping them

48:31

in a barn that has a

48:33

wax seal on the door. And

48:35

I noticed that the soldiers had

48:37

mixed matched... uniforms and very few

48:40

of them were armed and I

48:42

was talking to the guys I

48:44

was like this because we're in

48:46

outer Siberia and who the fuck

48:48

is coming here and he's like

48:50

no they sell their weapons because

48:52

the economy is so bad they

48:54

haven't gotten paid and this and

48:57

the uniforms were a rectic and

48:59

it and I remember coming back

49:01

me and like this is who

49:03

we're afraid of we're afraid of

49:05

these guys yeah how do we

49:07

not have Intel on that and

49:09

yeah they did it's about how

49:11

you use it's about how you

49:13

use it so how you use

49:16

it's in our country right now?

49:18

Where are we? How is this

49:20

going to be remembered? Well, the

49:22

US is the strongest economy in

49:24

the world. That's still true. I

49:26

worry that a China that actually

49:28

isn't the Soviet Union, they're smaller

49:30

economy than we are, and they're

49:32

only middle income, but their ability

49:35

to actually create world-changing technology, is...

49:37

at our level. So we have

49:39

a serious competitor now, very different

49:41

than the Soviet Union was, and

49:43

that we need to take more

49:45

seriously. And that means that we

49:47

need to invest intelligently in our

49:49

country and also globally, because that's

49:51

what they're doing. But do you

49:54

see any indication? We seem to

49:56

be criticizing ourselves right now. We

49:58

seem to be reevaluating. I do

50:00

believe that there's a mistake, which

50:02

I may be part of, by

50:04

the way. I'm giving, I have

50:06

a new personal practice that I

50:08

started. when I got fired. So

50:10

it's like a few years in

50:13

the making, it's still in a

50:15

laboratory phase, where let me consider

50:17

the criticism of me through the

50:19

lens of it being true. Let's

50:21

start that it's true. So on

50:23

an easy level. Personally, it's way

50:25

stickier. But on a professional level,

50:27

all right, so I'm part of

50:29

the problem. I'm part of a

50:32

media establishment that has stilted narratives

50:34

and kept information from people to

50:36

protect the elites, to protect the

50:38

power structures, to protect the institutions.

50:40

Okay, that's what I am. And

50:42

looking at it that way, to

50:44

try to understand the reaction formation

50:46

that's going on in the country,

50:48

when you do that... What do

50:51

you see? When you look at

50:53

the lens of what's happening in

50:55

this country, staying within the borders

50:57

of it, what do you think

50:59

is happening here and what do

51:01

you think it means? I think

51:03

we're not unified, right? We increasingly

51:05

don't... in any way agree on

51:08

basic truths. Because we never did

51:10

and now it's just out. No,

51:12

no, I think that we actually

51:14

to a much greater degree did

51:16

and I do think that media

51:18

and algorithms are a big part

51:20

of that problem. I think that

51:22

most Americans when I was growing

51:24

up had a general shared sense

51:27

of a lot of what was

51:29

happening. Okay, not Vietnam, right? But

51:31

in terms of like basic like

51:33

whether it was a vaccination, right,

51:35

or whether it was what the

51:37

Soviets were all about or the

51:39

Iran. hostage crisis, like we didn't

51:41

have vastly different narratives about the

51:43

headlines. You could read growing up

51:46

in Chelsea, the Boston Herald, or

51:48

if you were more educated, the

51:50

Boston Globe, we got the Herald,

51:52

my mom got the Inquirer, okay?

51:54

But the Inquirer was not news,

51:56

the Inquirer was not news, the

51:58

Inquirer was crazy shit on the

52:00

weekends, and the Herald was like,

52:02

okay, we sort of figured it

52:05

out, that isn't true anymore, and

52:07

Trump is a unifier by the

52:09

Canadian. are far more unified today

52:11

than they wore before Trump became

52:13

president. The Mexicans are far more

52:15

unified. The Europeans are far more

52:17

unified. I don't like that. I

52:19

want a president who is not

52:21

just a winner, but is a

52:24

leader, a leader of our country.

52:26

I mean, Trump is a winner.

52:28

He's always been a winner. For

52:30

him, right? And for him to

52:32

be a winner, others have to

52:34

be losers. And the people that

52:36

are primarily losers around Trump are

52:38

people in the United States. They're

52:40

principally fellow Americans. We need better

52:43

than that. So I understand that

52:45

we can all look at ourselves

52:47

and say we're part of the

52:49

problem, what can we do better?

52:51

But ultimately, Trump is my president.

52:53

He's your president. And we need

52:55

our president to be more than

52:57

a winner who's looking for losers.

53:00

And we need to call that

53:02

out. We need leaders. We need

53:04

our industry, top industry people, to

53:06

be leaders, not winners. And when

53:08

I look at Elon and Zuk

53:10

and Zuk and Basos and Basos,

53:12

I see winners. And we're great.

53:14

We produce the most extraordinary winners

53:16

in the world. But that means

53:19

that we have a society that

53:21

also feels incredibly polarized and hard

53:23

done by and angry constantly. And

53:25

these algorithms are making money off

53:27

us because of that. And that's

53:29

not good. We've got to stop

53:31

that. I don't know how to

53:33

stop it. I devote my life

53:35

to stopping. That section. We're engaging

53:38

with people. I know, you're good.

53:40

That's section 230. I don't know

53:42

what to do about it. Citizens

53:44

United, gotta get rid of it.

53:46

Well, Citizens United, good luck with

53:48

that. I know, but you're saying

53:50

we know what the problems are.

53:52

We know what the problems are.

53:54

We know what the problems are.

53:57

We know what the problems are.

53:59

Well, we had the problem before

54:01

Citizens United also, but this pack

54:03

money now has got worse. They're

54:05

not publishers. I get that. They're

54:07

not News Nation, they're not the

54:09

Wall Street Journal, but the idea...

54:11

that they have no responsibility for

54:13

what happens on their sites. It's

54:16

crazy. When they are obviously able

54:18

to manipulate and understand where to

54:20

put their ads. And Elon is,

54:22

I don't know this, but my

54:24

heavy suspicion is that he absolutely

54:26

knows how to wait narratives because

54:28

when I talk in a way

54:30

that he would like, I get

54:32

one level of reach. And when

54:35

it's not what he would like,

54:37

it's a different level of experience.

54:39

Exactly the same thing. So maybe

54:41

it's a coincidence. I don't think

54:43

it's a coincidence. That I can't

54:45

figure out that I'd love your

54:47

take on to one is I

54:49

believe that the pod people are

54:52

the ones spreading the division making

54:54

money off of the division not

54:56

doing any real reporting getting information

54:58

wrong for profit and Making people

55:00

angry with no end point other

55:02

than their own growth of a

55:04

following and they're blaming what they

55:06

call legacy media, mainstream media, establishment

55:08

media, whatever you want. It's meant

55:11

as, it's meant as an insult

55:13

for something they're actually doing. But

55:15

maybe the media was doing it

55:17

first, maybe the media deserves it,

55:19

I don't know, but that bothers

55:21

me. The other thing is, the

55:23

real fight is against the corporations,

55:25

not to destroy them. I am,

55:27

capitalism is the way for America.

55:30

That is it. Capitalism is great.

55:32

But we have reached a situation

55:34

now where Walmart gets to make

55:36

its money distributed to its shareholders

55:38

and we are subsidizing their workers

55:40

because of how dependent they are

55:42

on food stamps and social programs

55:44

because they're not paid enough. That

55:46

has to change. That's the fight.

55:49

I wish there was a Trump.

55:51

for that fight. I wish Trump

55:53

had done that. I thought in

55:55

2015 that was his fight. People

55:57

understand what these problems are. They

55:59

understand that corporations should not be

56:01

able to... to write their own

56:03

regs. Capitalism is great. Great. And

56:05

the reason it's great is because

56:08

you have companies that are competing

56:10

against each other. They can win,

56:12

they can fail, and in an

56:14

environment where the regulations are actually

56:16

independent of them. They're not written

56:18

by them. Right. They're not captured by

56:20

them. And by the way... Capitalism means

56:23

that you can fail. Capitalism means you

56:25

need to pay when you are creating

56:27

costs. You're not just capitalists with your

56:29

profits. You're capitalists with your losses. So

56:32

if you pump carbon in the atmosphere

56:34

and there's a cost to that, or

56:36

if you take water for free and

56:38

it belongs to the tax base, there's

56:41

a cost to that. Those costs need

56:43

to be on your books. That's what

56:45

capitalism is. We don't have

56:47

that. What we have are capitalists with

56:50

profits. And suddenly they become socialists when

56:52

they're losses. Yes. Right? That's not

56:54

capitalism. So, and people are angry

56:56

about that. That's what I wanted him to

56:58

fight. And he's not fighting that. And

57:00

Bernie's answer. He's not remotely fighting that.

57:02

Bernie's answer was socialism. That doesn't work.

57:05

You can't even use the word. Even

57:07

though Social Security and other entitlement programs

57:09

are socialistic in their nature and design.

57:11

You can't use the word. Okay. So you can't

57:13

use that word. And the Democrats have made that

57:15

mistake many times have made that mistake

57:17

many times many times over. Many times

57:20

over. to have me support your workers

57:22

while you're dividing profits. Look,

57:24

if Trump wants to get rid

57:26

of all of these illegal immigrants,

57:29

which is very, very popular in

57:31

the United States, let's make it

57:33

a serious problem for the corporations

57:35

that are hiring them. Yes. Let's

57:37

actually go in. Why is 98%

57:40

of Trump's invective focused on the

57:42

people who are doing everything they

57:44

can to get in because big

57:46

corporations are very happy to pay

57:49

them illegally? It seems to me that

57:51

if you really want to solve the problem,

57:53

you'd go after the driver of the

57:55

problem. I thought he was going to do

57:57

that because when you talked about... To the extent...

58:00

that Trump is completely

58:02

responsive to flattery? Yeah.

58:04

Those guys think he's a dope. Nobody

58:06

attacks Trump more than the

58:09

corporate class. They think he's

58:11

a joke. They don't respect him.

58:13

He is more responsive to

58:15

money than he is to be

58:18

very. Yeah, I guess that's it.

58:20

That's it. Turns out and

58:22

that's why he's such an effective

58:24

businessman in this environment. Because

58:27

nobody disrespects him the way those guys

58:29

do. Yeah, maybe. You talk to guys

58:31

on Wall Street, they think he's a

58:33

joke. They think he's a clown. You

58:35

talk to the tech pros when he's

58:37

not around. Musk is different because he's,

58:39

his personality disorder, his autism makes him

58:41

a tough read. But they think he's

58:43

a joke. He doesn't understand. I mean,

58:45

you know, you're around those guys all

58:48

the time. They are... intellectual

58:50

snobs, you know, they want to be better

58:52

than one another. They want to be more

58:54

fit. They want to be smarter. They want

58:56

to say that they're immense. They want to

58:58

play stupid games that they send to each

59:01

other to see what solves it faster. They

59:03

think he's a, you know, he's just

59:05

a complete zero to them. And I

59:07

thought that that would have harnessed his

59:09

inner drive to bring them to heel. But

59:11

haven't seen it. Haven't seen it.

59:13

I mean, look, there's obviously a

59:15

fight between the globalists. around

59:18

Trump, Elon Plus, the Tech Bros.

59:20

and a lot of those that

59:22

have spent a lot of money

59:25

to get access, and the original

59:27

core magga types, Steve Bannon. at

59:29

Al. And you know, Banan said

59:32

in the first term that he

59:34

was a damaged vessel. And I

59:36

think that's an appropriate way to

59:39

look at him back in 2017.

59:41

2025, when Elon is driving like

59:43

all of these outcomes, then I

59:45

mean, you would have to argue

59:48

that the globalists that are

59:50

capturing the environment are doing

59:52

a lot more and having

59:54

a lot more impact than

59:56

core magga. And in that regard,

59:59

again... And my expectation, my mother

1:00:01

would have always expected, can't trust any

1:00:03

of these people. It's not just you can't trust

1:00:05

the establishment. You can't trust the people who

1:00:07

come in and tell you they're not the

1:00:09

establishment because they've become the establishment really quickly

1:00:11

and they forget about us. And that's why

1:00:13

a lot of these people don't vote. That's

1:00:15

why a lot of people don't care. It's why a lot of

1:00:17

these people believe a lot of young men. I saw a

1:00:19

stat the other day, really bothered me.

1:00:21

Forty-two percent of young men in the

1:00:24

United States believe that it is fully

1:00:26

justified to break the law as leader

1:00:28

of the United States in order to

1:00:30

get the outcomes you want. Because they

1:00:33

think you can't actually, the system is

1:00:35

so broken that you can no longer

1:00:37

work within it. When you have that

1:00:39

number of young men that feel that way,

1:00:41

you got a problem. We

1:00:43

created that problem. We are hurting young

1:00:45

men in this country in a big way.

1:00:48

I am not the most articulate person on

1:00:50

that problem, but I see it all the

1:00:52

time. Well, it's hard to get more

1:00:54

polished on it because every time you say

1:00:56

it, you have a significant part

1:00:59

of the media culture, attack you. As,

1:01:01

you're lucky if you just get an

1:01:03

eye roll and a little baby violin playing

1:01:05

that, oh yeah, poor men, they're just in

1:01:07

control of everything. But I gotta tell you,

1:01:10

as a father of a young man. and

1:01:12

of two young women. It is way easier

1:01:14

to empower the young women than the

1:01:16

young man. He is doing okay, but

1:01:19

I see it in him and

1:01:21

his friends. They do not

1:01:23

see bright futures for themselves.

1:01:25

Anyway, Ian Bremmer. Always pleasure.

1:01:27

You. You are just value-added.

1:01:30

Thank you for helping us

1:01:32

understand the world around us.

1:01:35

Thank you for the food

1:01:37

for thought. Thank you for

1:01:39

what you're doing with your

1:01:42

companies. Thank you for

1:01:44

what you're doing with

1:01:47

your social media. And

1:01:49

thank you for the

1:01:51

gift of your friendship.

1:01:53

We'll do it again.

1:01:55

Look forward to it.

1:01:57

Appreciate it. Ian. Pushing pushing

1:01:59

America within its boundaries, within its

1:02:01

borders, and away from its alliances.

1:02:03

What do you think about it?

1:02:05

I'm Chris Cuomo. Thank you for

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