0:00

Hi, I'm Alexa. When I

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want to sing my heart

0:04

out to the biggest anthems

0:07

of all time, there's

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only one choice for

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me. Play Virgin Radio

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Legends. So when you

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Alexa, play Virgin

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Radio Legends. This

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is Virgin Radio Legends. Buses, I'm

0:29

guessing it's guest time over to

0:32

you. Oh, next guest is a

0:34

best-selling author, chef, entrepreneur and undisputed

0:36

queen of Mac and Cheese. Her

0:39

latest book, The Mac and Cheese

0:41

Millionaire, building a better business by

0:43

thinking outside the box, is out

0:46

now. So please welcome someone who'll

0:48

help you make the grade. It's

0:50

Erin Way! Great,

0:55

thank you so much for having me.

0:57

You're very welcome. Thanks for being here.

0:59

So I heard you on a podcast

1:01

on Shane Parrish's podcast, The Knowledge Project,

1:03

a couple of years ago. And I

1:05

said, who's this lady? And so I

1:07

said to John, who books all I

1:09

guess, I said. If she ever comes

1:11

anywhere near the UK, you've got to

1:13

get her on the show. Just come

1:15

a bit close if you don't

1:17

mind her. Sure. And you're here?

1:19

Yeah. Yeah. How come you hear,

1:22

Aaron? My kids are on spring

1:24

break, so I thought we'd come for

1:26

a visit. Yeah. To Europe. Yeah. Okay.

1:28

Are you, do you have a whistle

1:31

stop schedule? I mean, we're here in

1:33

London for a few days and then

1:35

Paris for a few days. that we

1:38

can tick if we like we can

1:40

tick that box. There's a three there's

1:42

a sort of three-pillar story here. The

1:44

first two are mac and cheese and

1:47

surfing. Where do you want to go

1:49

first? I mean I don't know this

1:51

is my two favorite things so it's

1:54

like picking between my kids. Yeah

1:56

it's like if you got a coin on

1:58

you is anybody got a coin? all

2:00

right, so here we go. Let's go, let's

2:02

toss a coin. So it's heads were going

2:05

with mac and cheese. Tales will go in

2:07

with surfing. Call it. Oh, heads. Heads, all

2:09

right, here we go. Tales. Tells, we're going

2:12

to go with surfing, all right, because we're

2:14

going surfing tomorrow. Oh, fabulous, where? In California.

2:16

Oh, OK. Because you can go surfing out

2:18

here, apparently, like in Cornwall. Yes. But we'll

2:21

be in California, so it's probably easy to

2:23

do it there. Yes, it's a little nicer.

2:25

Yeah. Now, you were later surfing, but boy,

2:27

you're all in now, aren't you? Oh, yeah.

2:30

Tell us about you and surfing. Yeah, so,

2:32

you know, it's. In the book, I really

2:34

talk about sort of following passion and it's

2:37

mainly about following your passion at work, but

2:39

you know, something that I found is that

2:41

there's this great parallel in life just about

2:43

when you do something from a place of

2:46

pure passion, it's hard not to be good

2:48

at it or at the very least not

2:50

to do it a lot. And so, yeah,

2:53

I came to surfing pretty late in life

2:55

for, you know, a surfer. So after my

2:57

kids were born and I was just looking

2:59

for something that was mine and mine and

3:02

mine alone and just started jumping in the

3:04

once a week and tried to figure it

3:06

out and that was about 10 years ago

3:08

and it's just one of my favorite things.

3:11

Did you have a calling? As far as

3:13

surf moves concern. Did you hear a voice

3:15

in your head or something like that? You

3:18

know, I wish I could say so. I

3:20

just, at the time, I was working a

3:22

lot and wanted something that was just for

3:24

me. And so I just sort of went

3:27

back to childhood and thought, what did I

3:29

used to love? And I loved getting in

3:31

the ocean. you know it was a bit

3:34

the same with my restaurant where I just

3:36

you know had been quite unhappy at work

3:38

and sort of brought myself back to childhood

3:40

and thought what did I love and it

3:43

was a big piping bowl of mac and

3:45

cheese. Well it's funny isn't it because there's

3:47

a Buddhist philosophy to do with that which

3:49

is true nature and you know if you're

3:52

lost in life as a grown-up often If

3:54

you just go back to what you liked

3:56

as a kid, the post is on your

3:59

wall and remind yourself of your true nature,

4:01

it doesn't usually change. 100% I could not

4:03

agree with that. I mean, it gives me

4:05

goosebumps just talking about it. I'm going to

4:08

stick with surfing for a bit because that's

4:10

what the court that's what fate dictated. Now

4:12

we'll be surfing off Santa Monica Beach where

4:15

it's quite warm it's going to be lovely

4:17

over the weekend and the water's quite warm

4:19

it can be quite warm it can be

4:21

cold you know you need a short suit

4:24

or a wet suit this time of year

4:26

but the further north you go it can

4:28

get pretty darn cold so so even though

4:30

you're you are a California surfing girl you

4:33

started where it was absolutely you see in

4:35

the movies. and they're definitely thinking more Southern

4:37

California or I surf. It's, you know, there's

4:40

like home to a lot of sharks. The

4:42

water is definitely is usually like 50 degrees

4:44

Fahrenheit. It's pretty cold. Well, you say it

4:46

sounds a lot of sharks. Doesn't it have

4:49

the highest great white shark count on the

4:51

planet or something? Yeah, it's, it's like called

4:53

the red triangle because it's where they like

4:55

breed and, I mean, you're putting yourself out

4:58

there. we wear wetsuits we don't wear suits

5:00

of armor right you look like a seal

5:02

I mean that's sort of the problem in

5:05

this black wets you're looking like a seal

5:07

in the water yet we couldn't be dressed

5:09

more sort of inappropriately to ward off sharks

5:11

yeah exactly and you are right about shark

5:14

attacks you know and Stephen Spielberg he is

5:16

he he's on record now as regretting the

5:18

message that jaws and two and three and

5:21

four sent out to the wider community because

5:23

obviously sharks now get a terrible they do

5:25

kill people but there's that great fact I

5:27

don't know if you're aware of the fact

5:30

that vending machines cause more deaths per year

5:32

than shark attacks. Oh I knew it about

5:34

lightning but I've never heard this vending machines

5:36

falling on people you know and people are

5:39

dying so it's not funny but it is

5:41

you know it's it's as as sort of

5:43

as as as as as as as as

5:46

as as as as as as as as

5:48

as as as as as as as as

5:50

as as as as as as as as

5:52

as as as as as as as as

5:55

as as one can be but for vending

5:57

machines falling on people cause more interest let's

5:59

say that yeah kill people cause more interest

6:02

than sharks do obviously if you are surfing

6:04

in the red triangle you must have seen

6:06

sharks then I have whilst you're surfing yes

6:08

I have I mean that's quite punchy errand

6:11

if you don't mind me saying yeah no

6:13

it's true it's it is pretty frightening but

6:15

I think you know if you are only

6:17

doing the things in life that are safe

6:20

yeah so so what's it I mean what

6:22

do you do is there a protocol if

6:24

you see a shot while you surf I

6:27

mean get out of the water is it

6:29

simple as that you know I'm with I'm

6:31

a one don't splash around a lot like

6:33

try to get out of the water quietly

6:36

I guess so you've done that you've actually

6:38

done that oh yeah but I mean they're

6:40

honestly the ones that are close to surfers

6:43

luckily I've only seen you know juveniles but

6:45

and the dolphins we're fine with the dolphins

6:47

love the dolphins yeah and the dolphins often

6:49

surf or at least sort of gallivant in

6:52

the waves with you if you jump on

6:54

a wave yeah they're very playful they love

6:56

surfers they love you know riding the waves

6:58

with you know riding the waves with you

7:01

which is great footage of dolphins and surfers

7:03

together yeah protocols protocols on waves is it

7:05

true first up gets the wave or is

7:08

that how it works yeah you know I

7:10

think you know surfing is actually such a

7:12

great metaphor for for business and life and

7:14

life in many ways. So yeah, the way

7:17

that it works is sort of the first

7:19

person who's on a wave should get it

7:21

all to themselves. So it makes it very,

7:24

you know, sort of competitive and cutthroat and

7:26

winter take all. But you know, it's really

7:28

interesting. I actually have like a story in

7:30

the book about sort of a different surfing

7:33

environment that I had been in at one

7:35

point where I got in the water and

7:37

it happened to be all women, which hasn't.

7:39

rarely happens. It's a pretty, you know, male-dominated

7:42

sport. And it was sort of like there

7:44

was this different protocol where instead of competing,

7:46

we all started sort of collaborating, communicating, and

7:49

sharing the waves. And I talk about that

7:51

as sort of a metaphor for, you know,

7:53

sort of the different ways of doing business.

7:55

of a competitive cutthroat way. There's sort of

7:58

a collaborative sharing way. And anyway, I sort

8:00

of talk about the latter in the book

8:02

and why it's a sort of great metaphor

8:04

for, you know, the way things have been

8:07

done versus the way they could be done.

8:09

We have twins born and a girl, six

8:11

and a half, and they often party wave

8:14

it together. Oh, really? Oh, that's so great.

8:16

Yes. Oh, really? Oh, that's a great way

8:18

of it together. Oh, really? Oh, that's so

8:20

great. Party wave it together. Oh, yes, party

8:23

wave it together. Oh, Oh, oh. Oh, Oh,

8:25

really? Oh, that. Oh, that. Oh, that. Oh,

8:27

that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

8:30

that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

8:32

a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a,

8:34

a, a, a, a, party wave, a, party

8:36

wave, a, party, know what I was doing

8:39

but I just bought the biggest surfboard that

8:41

would fit in my car obviously I realized

8:43

about a second later you can you can

8:45

put surfboards on top of the car yeah

8:48

but the thing that struck me was the

8:50

biggest surfboard possible because the bigger the board

8:52

the easier it's to stay off isn't it

8:55

yeah it's sort of funny it's very counterintuitive

8:57

I think people would you know think it's

8:59

sort of the opposite but yeah you want

9:01

just like a it's like a gigantic cheese

9:04

millionaire. Aaron started as a well. You did

9:06

start as a lawyer in the grown-up world,

9:08

but then having read your book, I didn't

9:11

realize you had so much kitchen experience before.

9:13

Yeah, I didn't know that bit. Because I

9:15

listened to you on a podcast and that

9:17

wasn't covered. Nobody's fault by the way. But

9:20

you did have some serious experiencing kitchens before

9:22

you became a lawyer. Yeah, I did. And

9:24

I mean, I love food and I love

9:26

cooking, and I love cooking, but working in

9:29

restaurants was actually like quite... miserable and I

9:31

just did not see a future for myself

9:33

so I sort of you know chucked kitchens,

9:36

chucked restaurants. I did, I gave it a

9:38

real go and then you know did what

9:40

other you know confused smart people do which

9:42

is to become a lawyer and then yeah

9:45

and then realized I didn't like it and

9:47

I really wanted to return to food. Yeah

9:49

and your subconscious wasn't putting up with you

9:52

being a lawyer even though you thought you

9:54

thought you were because you were underperforming to

9:56

the extent that somebody noticed you got fired.

9:58

I got fired, it wasn't like something. terrible

10:01

happen. They were just like, you know, we

10:03

can pay someone else a lot of money

10:05

to not really want to be here. So

10:07

did you have any idea? So the vibes

10:10

you were putting out. Oh, I mean, I

10:12

think I knew. You know, it was a

10:14

kind of thing or as a corporate firm

10:17

and, you know, everyone works just a million

10:19

hours and they'd be like, okay, you know,

10:21

are you ready to come in on Saturday

10:23

and work on this case? And I was

10:26

like. No. And then they fired your ass.

10:28

They said that's it. Yeah. They were like,

10:30

we're done. But it was a real wake-up

10:33

call for me because I'm someone who actually,

10:35

you know, generally is a real go-getter, loves

10:37

working. And I was like, huh, I just

10:39

got fired not because I'm so bad at

10:42

this thing. Yeah. Because I don't even care

10:44

about being good. And it just seemed like

10:46

a really depressing. You've got red triangle. news

10:48

here, why being let go is the best

10:51

euphemism ever for losing job, because you were

10:53

let go, let go is freedom, isn't it?

10:55

Off you go. I mean, I think it

10:58

can be, right? For me it was an

11:00

invitation to do something that I was passionate

11:02

about. Yeah, so you set up, you went

11:04

home, you decided to consume your feelings as

11:07

supposed to feel your feelings, and you dove

11:09

back into a bowl of your dad's recipe,

11:11

mac and cheese. Oh yeah. That's basically what

11:13

happened, isn't it? A hundred percent, yeah. And

11:16

then, was it credit cards next? Yeah, yes,

11:18

I just started taking out as much credit

11:20

as I could pull out. Not to buy

11:23

more mac and cheese, but to... Yeah, to

11:25

open a restaurant and, you know, banks at

11:27

least in the in the US will not

11:29

give you loans, because it's such a risky.

11:32

and restaurants fail at such a tremendously high

11:34

rate. So yeah, I just decided, you know,

11:36

I didn't love working in other people's restaurants.

11:39

Could I perhaps create the place that I

11:41

wish I could have worked when I was

11:43

sort of coming up in kitchens? And because

11:45

it was such a home-growing kind of recipe,

11:48

you named your restaurant? Homeroom. Homeroom. All right.

11:50

And then you had to hire loads of

11:52

people. So you basically you applied for every

11:54

credit card in the world. How many credit

11:57

cards did you get in the end? I

11:59

think I had six and... This is not

12:01

to be recommended. This is not financial. Yeah,

12:04

yeah, I can't advise it. And you know,

12:06

what's embarrassing is when we opened, I actually

12:08

only had two weeks worth of funding in

12:10

the bank account. So if we were not

12:13

immediately successful, it would have been immediately a

12:15

failure. And then you also discovered it in

12:17

the middle of all this, what it's like

12:20

to lease some commercial property, which is like...

12:22

like I don't know renting a car and

12:24

then having to build it yourself because there's

12:26

nothing there in the first place. And then

12:29

if you know you're not successful it's like

12:31

leaving the car with someone else. The people

12:33

you brought it from. It's terrible. We have

12:35

this experience in many live events. We rent

12:38

some space. We then pay for a lot

12:40

of stuff to be built and then we

12:42

haven't got used to go, well, will! we'll

12:45

keep it if you like you know okay

12:47

that seems like a really good deal for

12:49

you in a terrible deal for us yeah

12:51

and within that you don't really budget for

12:54

things over and above the essentials and it

12:56

also takes you it always cost you double

12:58

to what you think it's gonna cost you

13:01

what you think it's gonna cost you twice

13:03

what you think it's gonna cost you twice

13:05

if not longer than you think it's going

13:07

to take it twice if not long with

13:10

anything like all sorts of you know sort

13:12

of honestly like red tape and permitting that

13:14

I had not really anticipated I had to

13:16

imagine spending money on, I just tried to

13:19

like... So funny! So funny! Because there's all

13:21

the red tape and there's all the... You

13:23

went from the red triangle to the red

13:26

tape or the red tape to the red

13:28

triangle with all the sharks and there are

13:30

other sharks of other kinds everywhere else? Oh

13:32

my gosh! And then we had the vintage

13:35

furniture! And then we had the vintage furniture!

13:37

Then we had the vintage furniture to learn

13:39

to do it. What skills did you acquire

13:42

along the way? Oh God! I mean I

13:44

can like refinish furniture now. We had no

13:46

money to seal. God bless you. It was

13:48

just really embarrassing. God bless you for some

13:51

things, not others, but for some things. I'm

13:53

with you all the way on YouTube. I

13:55

love YouTube. And then you had to interview

13:57

some people to work with you. Oh God,

14:00

yeah. And again, you underestimated that. Why wouldn't

14:02

you? Because you've never done it before. So

14:04

can you just frame that experience day one?

14:07

Yes. So I had this really utopian worldview

14:09

of the kind of restaurant I wanted to

14:11

create because like I said it was about,

14:13

you know, not just making this delicious mac

14:16

and cheese, but creating the kind of restaurant

14:18

I wish I could have worked in. And

14:20

so we had this like very inspirational ad.

14:22

And so I thought you know, maybe a

14:25

few inspirational ad. And so I thought, you

14:27

know, maybe a few dozen people would show

14:29

up for our first days of job interviews.

14:32

Is that because the ad, you're like, oh

14:34

my God. you know the opportunity to come

14:36

to work every day and love what I

14:38

do yeah we all want that so yeah

14:41

you and you know you meant it in

14:43

the ad you meant it clearly I didn't

14:45

see the ad I've never seen the ad

14:48

but because it was so close to your

14:50

heart that will come across and it always

14:52

does come across and that's the ex factor

14:54

that everybody talks about it's not so mysterious

14:57

it's just about being sincere and authentic isn't

14:59

it right chapter 11 hiring the eerie resemblance

15:01

between hiring and dating are early similar You

15:03

know, when you go on a date with

15:06

someone, you don't really know what it's like

15:08

to be in a relationship with them. All

15:10

you know is what it's like to talk

15:13

to them. And it's sort of the same

15:15

with working, right? You interview someone, you know

15:17

what a good talker there, but you don't

15:19

know what a good worker they are. And

15:22

so you're don't know what a good worker

15:24

they are. And so you're using one as

15:26

this sort of funny proxy for people. Oh

15:29

my God, it was embarrassing. I mean, I

15:31

felt bad because talk about, you know, you've

15:33

created this utopian ad and then people show

15:35

up thinking they're going to have a nice

15:38

experience. But because there was so many of

15:40

them, the only way to get to everyone

15:42

was to have these really short interviews. So

15:44

it was like literally like five minutes a

15:47

person and it still took all day. But

15:49

you can shine. You can actually show yourself

15:51

to be a future rock star as an

15:54

employee in a five and interview by doing

15:56

a five and interview by doing. said it

15:58

was for what they did. One of my

16:00

favorite employees. actually just brought me a coffee

16:03

and was like you know I'm sure that

16:05

you're having a really long day so I

16:07

thought you could use a nice cup of

16:10

coffee and I was like God you know

16:12

we're in restaurants for in hospitality

16:14

this person is showing me

16:16

that they want to take

16:18

care of people versus just

16:20

talking about it a celebration

16:22

of Britain at its best

16:24

the attitude The

16:28

Soundtrack to a Generation. Virgin Radio Presents.

16:30

Virgin Radio Britpop. Now live on the

16:32

Virgin Radio app and on your smart

16:34

speaker. Play Virgin Radio Britpop. Why the

16:36

best instruction resembles a coloring book? And

16:38

this is about boundaries, isn't it? It's

16:40

about boundaries. So it's important, especially if

16:42

you're in the service industry, to let

16:44

everybody shine. If you got to employ

16:46

the right people who want to shine

16:49

in the first place, then you've got

16:51

to give them the freedom, but not

16:53

too much freedom, and go with the

16:55

coloring book techniques. So just take us

16:57

through that. Sure. So, you know, again,

16:59

I had working all these places that

17:01

I didn't like, and I didn't like

17:03

about them. over corrected in the other

17:05

direction and gave people like way too

17:08

much freedom. So I guess what I

17:10

would liking it to is, you know,

17:12

places that are really controlled, it's a

17:14

little bit like a paint by number.

17:16

Everyone is gonna do the, everyone's gonna

17:18

look the exact same no matter. Everyone's

17:20

gonna look the exact same no matter.

17:22

No matter who does it. They have

17:24

a script. They have a script, don't

17:26

they? An actual script that you repeat,

17:29

you know, there's no space for creativity

17:31

or to be yourself. and it's really

17:33

demoralizing, right? But I sort of went

17:35

the other direction and wasn't giving people

17:37

any direction, which is sort of like

17:39

handing them a blank page, in which

17:41

case everything is just gonna look different,

17:43

and to be honest, it's a bit

17:45

of a disaster. So where we landed

17:48

is sort of, you know, what I

17:50

would call the kind of, you know,

17:52

leadership. for management that you want to

17:54

have should look more like a coloring

17:56

book. And the reason why is a

17:58

coloring book, you know, the outlines are

18:00

going to look the same, right? But

18:02

people are going to fill it in

18:04

differently with their own color. So, you

18:06

know, and different marks and different styles,

18:09

some heavy pencils, some light pencils, some

18:11

not quite sure, some of resharping their

18:13

pencils, some just blunt it just blunt

18:15

it away. But you need all sorts

18:17

in there. we were thinking about, okay,

18:19

you know, we don't want to give

18:21

people scripts, but also when we give

18:23

them nothing to work with, they just

18:25

really don't know what to do or

18:28

to say. And we really wanted to

18:30

be, our mission is to be the

18:32

best part of people's day. And we

18:34

really meant it, we really meant it,

18:36

we want it to be the best

18:38

part of people's day. And we really

18:40

meant it, we wanted to be the

18:42

best part of people's day. And we

18:44

really meant it, we want it, we

18:46

want it, we want it, we want

18:49

it, we want it, we want it,

18:51

we want it, we want it, we

18:53

want to, we want to, we want

18:55

to, we want to, we want to,

18:57

we want to, we want to, we

18:59

want to, we want to, we want

19:01

to, we want to, we want to,

19:03

we want to, we want to, we

19:05

want to, we want to, we want

19:07

to, we want to, we want to,

19:10

we want to, we you know, one

19:12

table an hour where I'm gonna give

19:14

them the best experience they've had all

19:16

year. And he meant it. And so,

19:18

and he would just go above and

19:20

beyond, you know, like sometimes like, write

19:22

them a poem, sing them a song,

19:24

you know, give them a free dessert,

19:26

you know, do all these like just

19:29

sort of creative things. And so we

19:31

started using the stokeout rule. So if

19:33

you were a server, we wouldn't give

19:35

you a script, but we'd say, hey,

19:37

once an hour, you need to to

19:39

do whatever you want to make that

19:41

happen. And that's such a fun and

19:43

creative challenge. So that was the colouring

19:45

book. So he gamified it. Yeah, he

19:47

gamified it. Why not? So cool. And

19:50

now also, the third pillar, which we

19:52

didn't mention at the beginning, is the

19:54

things that you invented, the best practices

19:56

you invented to protect people, especially women

19:58

in the workplace, and also to get

20:00

employees to communicate with each other. Totally.

20:02

And again, to gamify something that is

20:04

extremely serious. And then this was picked

20:06

up by the New York Times was

20:09

it? I mean, all over the place,

20:11

I wrote a very viral op-ed in

20:13

the Washington Post, but yes, it was

20:15

also covered in the New York Times.

20:17

It's now a system that's used by

20:19

bars and restaurants all across the world,

20:21

actually. Right, tell us, give us the

20:23

headlines of it, because it's brilliant, it's

20:25

genius. Oh, thank you. So yeah, we

20:27

had developed a lot of systems for

20:30

how do you communicate, collaborate, be creative

20:32

in the workplace, right? It wasn't so

20:34

much from each other, but from guests,

20:36

which was really depressing. And so we

20:38

all got together and collaborated and honestly

20:40

made a bunch of mistakes, but kept

20:42

working and working until we figured out

20:44

this system called the Color Code of

20:46

Conduct, which basically virtually eradicated harassment in

20:49

the restaurant. And I can explain how

20:51

it works. Yeah, please do. Yeah, so...

20:53

For people listening, who might want to

20:55

deploy it. Yeah, and so, you know,

20:57

this is sort of this like, like,

20:59

everyone wins ethos, which is pretty hard

21:01

to do when it comes to something

21:03

as, you know, you know, you know,

21:05

you know, this harassment, but we basically

21:07

coded behavior into like three different categories.

21:10

So it's yellow, orange, and red. And

21:12

with each category, a staff member would

21:14

just have to say a color and

21:16

a manager would automatically have an action

21:18

that they have to take. So for

21:20

instance, a yellow is just, obviously, a

21:22

yellow is just, obviously, more than you

21:24

get a bad feeling or a bad

21:26

vibe. So you would say, hey, I've

21:29

got a yellow at table one, and

21:31

then you can ask the manager to

21:33

either take the manager. at some point.

21:35

An orange is sort of a bad

21:37

feeling plus an ambiguous comment. So something

21:39

like, I like your shirt. Depending on

21:41

who says it to you and the

21:43

context, it could be totally benign or

21:45

it could feel really rather threatening or

21:47

creepy. And in that case, a server

21:50

would just say, hey, I've got an

21:52

orange at table too and the manager

21:54

is required to take over the table.

21:56

So that's a verbal. Right, exactly. And

21:58

then a red is something that's like

22:00

overtly sexual or touching. So something like,

22:02

you look sexy in that shirt or

22:04

touching a staff member. And in that

22:06

case, the staff member just says, hey,

22:08

I've got a red at table three.

22:11

and the manager is required to take

22:13

over the table and kick the person

22:15

out. And did this work instantly? So

22:17

what was really cool about it is

22:19

we developed it, honestly, is just a

22:21

way to cope with harassment. Just so

22:23

there was a really easy system that

22:25

was quick, that was easy to use,

22:27

where people didn't have to justify their

22:30

experience. Managers knew exactly what to do.

22:32

And we thought it was just going

22:34

to help us deal. And we thought

22:36

it was just going to help us

22:38

deal with it. But what it actually

22:40

did is it virtually eradicated. some low-level

22:42

comments and then they escalate their behavior

22:44

and so because it changed the power

22:46

dynamics at these low levels they rarely

22:48

reach the higher levels. In the final

22:51

chapter of the book you do you

22:53

superwoman it write up and you don't

22:55

intend to that but you do become

22:57

I mean you start off as a

22:59

simple woman anyway it knows you know

23:01

your story but the last few chapters

23:03

it's fantastic and you also you talk

23:05

about women as leaders And I am

23:07

here, I'm fully on board, you know,

23:10

some of my best bosses, if not

23:12

all my best bosses have been women.

23:14

Oh, thank you. And you talk about

23:16

the difference a title can make, yeah,

23:18

because there are so fewer... female CEOs

23:20

in the world and you talk about

23:22

that. However, if you run a company

23:24

and even if that company is just

23:26

you as an employee, i.e. you're your

23:28

own boss and it's a mom and

23:31

pop shop or just a mom shop,

23:33

you can call yourself the CEO. Then

23:35

if you put that on your email

23:37

and it's true because it is you

23:39

are the chief executive officer of anything

23:41

you want to be if you run

23:43

the company, and again that's giving me

23:45

chills, it makes such a difference because

23:47

people just treat differently and it doesn't

23:50

matter why they do but they do

23:52

so you really might want to give

23:54

that a go this weekend yeah yeah

23:56

I mean I have this funny realization

23:58

where you know as I started writing

24:00

articles about our sexual harassment system and

24:02

you know doing more like public speaking

24:04

about you know all the cool business

24:06

practices that we did you know there's

24:08

this sort of depressing in the US

24:11

where there's more CEOs named John in

24:13

the Fortune 500 than there are female

24:15

CEOs and I was like this is

24:17

a pretty bleak number you know so

24:19

but then when you look at smaller

24:21

businesses you know women are actually really

24:23

you know everywhere like they own almost

24:25

you know half of small businesses in

24:27

America and so I was like God

24:30

if you know all those women started

24:32

calling themselves CEOs which they all are

24:34

right? We would have this very different

24:36

perception of what a CEO is and

24:38

so much more visibility. So yeah I

24:40

just started calling myself a CEO and

24:42

challenging like everyone I knew to do

24:44

the same and I was like huh

24:46

if everyone did that we'd have a

24:48

sea change and how you and you

24:51

did it made a difference straight away

24:53

because you started getting return calls and

24:55

emails from people who'd never bothered before

24:57

because suddenly this CEO was because they

24:59

saw CEO before they saw gender totally

25:01

yeah 100% power power! God we're so

25:03

predictable. I know. Aaron you're amazing you're

25:05

amazing I'm really glad you made time

25:07

to come and see us. You were

25:10

blown away but they weren't your vassos.

25:12

Oh completely I just I love the

25:14

story I love how you put the

25:16

employees at the centre of everything. I'd

25:18

love to ask you you know you

25:20

you talked about when you were let

25:22

go when you weren't doing so well

25:24

as a lawyer when you were doing

25:26

so well with the mac and cheese

25:28

yeah how did you decide to let

25:31

it let it go? Like let go

25:33

of this career that I had sort

25:35

of pursued for when you sold yeah

25:37

when you sold the company Oh when

25:39

I sold the company. Yes. So basically

25:41

I built the company. It was doing

25:43

incredibly well and attracted attention of a

25:45

much bigger restaurant company and I sold

25:47

it You know it's a real restaurant

25:49

company and I sold it You know

25:52

it's a real mixed bag because on

25:54

one hand it's sort of like the

25:56

ultimate entrepreneurial journey as you grow something

25:58

you sell it. It's this recognition of

26:00

all the value that you've created know

26:02

like for like a decade and then

26:04

sending them to another family to continue

26:06

to be raised so it's sort of

26:08

like you know on one hand really

26:11

amazing but all another sort of heartbreaking

26:13

because you know, sort of, was my

26:15

heart and soul for a long time.

26:17

Would you, if you had your time

26:19

over again, would you sell it again?

26:21

You know, I think... Good question, by

26:23

the way, if I was thinking the

26:25

same thing, great question. Yeah, I mean,

26:27

you know, I realize that sometimes, uh...

26:29

You know, your own, the journey of

26:32

like the company that you start versus

26:34

yourself as a person, it can sometimes

26:36

go on together forever, but sometimes it

26:38

should be different. Like I realize that

26:40

the thing, I wasn't excited to like

26:42

keep growing to be like a hundred

26:44

restaurants. I realize that the thing, I

26:46

wasn't excited to like keep growing to

26:48

be like a hundred restaurants. I realize

26:51

that the thing, to like keep growing

26:53

to be like a hundred restaurants. I

26:55

realize that the thing I keep growing

26:57

to be like a hundred. Yeah. So

26:59

yes, I would do it again. The

27:01

only disappointed thing is... Go on. She

27:03

didn't bring any mac and cheese. Oh,

27:05

I know. Oh, I'm sorry, guys. Can

27:07

you hear of Aaron, please, if you

27:09

don't mind? This is Aaron Wade, the

27:12

mac and cheese millionaire. If you want

27:14

to listen to Aaron, smash in a

27:16

podcast, then Shane Parrish is the Knowledge

27:18

Project. Can't remember the episode. Do you

27:20

remember which episode number it was? I

27:22

don't, but just Google, let me out.

27:24

Yeah, and this book is out across

27:26

the world and forever, building a better

27:28

business by thinking outside the box. Thank

27:31

you, Aaron. Have a great spring break.

27:33

You're very well. Come serve with me.

27:35

You've got to come surf with me.

27:37

You've got to come surf with me.

27:39

I'll try. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I

27:41

am the worst. Enjoy great music, enjoy

27:43

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