0:01

Support for this podcast comes from Progressive,

0:03

a leader in RV insurance. We've

0:05

all made RVing mistakes, like not pest

0:07

proofing the RV for winter, but there's

0:09

one mistake you shouldn't make, not insuring

0:11

your travel trailer. Progressive RV insurance can

0:14

protect your travel trailer when your auto

0:16

or home insurance can. Get

0:18

a quote at progressive.com, Progressive Casually Insurance

0:20

Company and affiliates. Ryan

0:25

Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. With the price of

0:27

just about everything going up during inflation, we thought

0:29

we'd bring our prices down. So to help us,

0:31

we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently

0:33

a thing. Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium Wireless! How do

0:35

I get 30, 30, 30, 30, 20, 20, 20,

0:37

20, 20, 20, 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks

0:39

a month? So,

0:45

give it a try at

0:47

mintmobile.com/switch. $45 upfront payment

0:49

equivalent to $15 per month. per month. New customers on first

0:51

three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above

0:53

40 gigabytes each detail. gigabytes. You

0:57

detail. Hello from

0:59

Nashville. I'm

1:02

Chuck Todd and this is the Chuck

1:05

Todd cast. So Democrats losses in this

1:07

year's election extend beyond any one person,

1:09

candidate or issue. They revealed

1:11

a deeper problem. The party seems to have with

1:13

all voters and it showed itself in a pretty

1:16

much all 50 states. My guest today is

1:18

Howard Dean. He's the former governor of Vermont and from 2005 to 2009

1:20

he was chairman of the Democratic National

1:24

Committee. He became famous

1:26

for pitching a 50 state strategy, which

1:29

to Democrats at the time was a was, oh wow,

1:31

we've never heard of something like that, which is sort

1:33

of oddly a head scratch here. If

1:36

you're a national political party, you probably should always have a 50

1:38

state strategy, but it was, it was

1:40

Howard Dean that got the party refocused again and,

1:43

uh, arguably they didn't look back for nearly 20 years.

1:46

But before we get started, remember to stick

1:48

around for an audience question and send us

1:50

your suggestions for this year's what if series

1:52

that I'll be doing our little, my obsession

1:54

with butterfly effects. So if you

1:56

have an alternative historical question you'd like to see

1:58

us tackle, please submit to thechucktodcastatgmail.com.

2:00

We'll be looking for those

2:03

emails. But with that, I

2:05

don't have a huge vamp because I want to

2:08

vamp here with Howard Dean. Governor Dean,

2:10

welcome back to the Toddcast. Thanks

2:12

for having me on. Well, I want

2:14

to start with this moment we're in. My

2:18

professional life began in 92, and

2:21

that was right, you know, basically

2:23

a four-year reclamation project after the

2:26

Michael Dukakis debacle. Then

2:29

there was 04, now there's now, and I

2:31

single those periods out because believe it or

2:33

not, Governor, the Democrats have only

2:35

lost the popular vote three times since

2:37

1988. 88, 04, and now 2024. After

2:45

88, there was a big fight over

2:47

what the party should do. It

2:50

was a healthy fight, and the party got healthy,

2:52

won the presidency in 92. You

2:55

participated in a big fight, no five, right,

2:58

got the party healthy, and

3:02

it was arguably won the popular vote

3:04

every single time until this time. So

3:07

let me start with air. Do you

3:09

see similarities between 24 and 04? And

3:12

if so, what are they to you? Well,

3:15

I think that similarity between 24

3:17

and 04 is

3:20

unfortunately a similarity that we weren't able to

3:23

cure in the four years that I

3:25

was chair. We need to

3:27

do what the Republicans have done, which

3:29

organizationally speaking is have

3:32

a real 50 state strategy for all 50

3:34

legislatures and

3:36

city council races and school board races, and

3:38

the Republicans have done that. They

3:41

don't all do it through the RNC. I

3:43

think the national committees are, as

3:46

particularly when you have the president basically captives

3:48

of inside the beltway, and

3:50

my famous saying about inside the

3:52

beltways is basically middle school on steroids. They're

3:54

very smart. They work hard and it's all

3:56

about them all the time. So

3:59

you can't really, on a national organization to do the

4:01

work that needs to be done. You've got to do

4:03

it the way the Republicans do. Now they have lots

4:05

of help from billionaires. The Koch

4:08

brothers put a lot of local money into various

4:11

races and other groups

4:13

do that as well. But we

4:15

are not gonna turn these red

4:17

states even purple until we

4:19

have people running for the state legislature

4:21

in every single race. And that means

4:23

in some districts, we can't possibly win.

4:25

That takes money and takes organization and

4:28

we're just not doing that. So

4:30

let me start with this. You know,

4:32

there's one of the debates about the DNC

4:34

job. Is it the

4:36

job of a tactician or is it the, or

4:38

is this person supposed to be a spokesperson for

4:41

the Democratic party agenda? That all depends on

4:43

whether you have the presidency or not. And

4:46

this is one of the problems. When

4:48

you have the presidency, the DNC is

4:50

a subsidiary of the White House. Always,

4:53

right? Basically they take orders from the political

4:55

director who takes orders from the president. So

4:58

that is by

5:00

default an inside the Beltway organization.

5:03

So the time that I, first of all, when

5:05

I took over the DNC, it was against the

5:07

wishes of the inside the Beltway crowd. Yes, it

5:09

was. No, you ran against them. They had their

5:11

own set of candidates that they tried to stop

5:13

you. They did usually one a week for about

5:15

six weeks and then they gave up. But

5:18

that's because I had tremendous support in the states, which

5:20

who knows what to do. Now the state parties are

5:22

not really equipped to do this either because they don't

5:24

have enough money. Most of them, some of them do,

5:26

but a lot of them don't. And

5:29

even in the states, there's some capture.

5:32

I can remember going to New York and finding that

5:34

the chairman of the party was also the chairman of

5:36

the ways and means committee in the legislature. He really

5:38

answered as a speaker in New York, not

5:40

to the grassroots. Yeah. How

5:42

did that work in Illinois? There's

5:44

a few sort of what I call the machine

5:47

remnant states. Yes, there are. I'm sure Illinois and

5:49

New Jersey had some similarities there as well. Well,

5:51

we came, they can't, the Republicans came close in

5:53

New Jersey, relatively speaking. It was about 5%. That's

5:56

pretty bad. State on Illinois, by

5:59

the way, sir. Yeah. Well, we've I mean,

6:01

we've got to do better and we can't

6:03

continue with this model. And I think

6:05

the way to do it is to have to

6:07

strengthen local parties, but they cannot be dependent

6:10

on the Washington inside the Beltway people because

6:12

they are all interested in their own races.

6:14

You can't build a party that way. You

6:16

can win Congress and the presidency that way,

6:18

but you can't build a party that way.

6:20

And that's the problem in the red states.

6:22

We have no method of regaining the ground

6:24

that we've lost. You

6:27

know, it's interesting. There's so much money right now

6:29

swimming in Democratic Party circles, but it never seems

6:31

as if the money's in the right place. Well,

6:33

that's right. You look and it really does seem

6:36

as if that there needs to be a better

6:38

steward of where to move, where to encourage

6:41

people to donate money. I mean, there's a

6:43

lot of wasted money, if you

6:45

will. Just like we talk about wasted votes in

6:47

the electoral college. There's a lot

6:49

of wasted money in national politics. A

6:52

lot of that is that, you know, if you're

6:54

going to cozy up to somebody who's worth well

6:56

north of a billion dollars, they're going to want

6:58

something for their money. And usually it's to be

7:00

able to tell their friends, well, I told the

7:02

president blah, blah, blah. And I told the senator,

7:05

well, senator so and so who I was the

7:07

principal supporter of. You know, I

7:09

got their cell phone in my back pocket here.

7:11

Just to prove to you. Right. Right. Yeah. They

7:13

brag about it. The problem is they go to

7:15

the glamour races and there are some groups that

7:17

are fantastic funded by people

7:20

like Eric Schmidt who

7:22

get this. But

7:24

a lot of it is, you know, the big

7:27

money comes in every four years when we have

7:29

a presidential candidate and it goes to the presidential.

7:31

And by the time we have a presidential campaign,

7:33

they're pretty much telling the DNC what they can

7:35

and can't do. And it's not

7:37

high on their they do have often have a

7:39

good organization to get out the vote,

7:41

but you can't get out the vote. People who don't

7:43

want to vote for you. And the way they get

7:45

to learn like to vote for you is their neighbor

7:47

runs for the legislature. And even if they lose three

7:50

times, they can eventually win. So

7:53

give some advice. Let's assume that

7:56

the party decides to find somebody

7:58

not of Washington. But

8:00

they're going to come here and quickly butt

8:03

heads with the Senate, head of

8:05

the Senate Democrats, head of the House Democrats, right,

8:07

who also believe they help run the

8:10

national party. Talk

8:12

to me about how you navigated those relationships. Some

8:14

of them, I'm guessing, were a little, look,

8:17

Rahm Emanuel was in the room, right, at the

8:19

Triple C, you know. I'm sure there were times

8:21

that you guys were on the same page and

8:23

there were times that you

8:25

both might have spoken your opinion very loudly. How

8:28

would you navigate the Washington insiders who

8:30

will be running the

8:33

congressional Democrats? You have to

8:35

say no. Rahm was easy. He blew up in a

8:37

meeting with me, Reed, and Schumer, and he screamed and

8:39

yelled and dropped the F-bomb a few times. And we

8:41

ignored him, and so he stomped out of the room,

8:44

and I never saw him after June, which was great.

8:46

And we could recruit, instead of recruiting people who

8:49

could fund their own campaigns, we do things like

8:51

call up the Democratic governor of Kansas and say,

8:53

who do you think can win this seat? And

8:55

then go recruit them. And they did. We won

8:57

the Congress. So that was

9:00

easy. With Schumer and Reed, both of

9:02

whom I respect, you just

9:04

say no. And you say it politely, and

9:06

you say no. And you keep saying no.

9:08

At the end, we raised the- You're really

9:10

advocating somebody to be a very much an

9:12

independent actor here. You have to

9:14

be. You have to be. It's almost impossible,

9:16

Chuck. It's almost impossible to do that if

9:18

you have a Democratic president, because

9:20

they really do control the purse rings. I

9:23

mean, we had trouble this year getting money

9:25

for some things from the campaign, because they

9:27

have their own infighting. They have their own

9:29

stuff that goes on. And it's just, I

9:31

mean, Republicans are like that too. But

9:34

you've got to have an independent organization. It

9:36

has to be, really, it has to be

9:38

at the below the state level, because the

9:40

state parties function the same. They have the

9:42

same problem. In order to get to be

9:44

the state- If they have governorship, sometimes that

9:47

gets in the way, right? Absolutely. So you've

9:49

got to have an outside, and

9:51

the Republicans are good at this. And they have

9:53

foundations that are often their own, raising money. And,

9:56

you know, of course, they give money to the big

9:58

cats too. And that's how they get away with it.

10:00

And of course, they have a lot more billionaires on

10:02

their side than we do on ours. Is

10:06

there any structural what's a structural change that

10:08

you feel like you tried to

10:10

make it the DNC and ended

10:12

up not taking after after

10:14

it became presidential can

10:17

run DNC that you'd like to see

10:19

happen? This is so many mistakes

10:21

that were made. First

10:23

of all, you do not have a current office

10:25

holder as the chair of the DNC. And

10:28

my successor was Tim Kaine, who's a wonderful, wonderful person.

10:30

It happens to have a full time job in the

10:32

United States. A full time job. Yeah, that was a

10:34

tough thing to do. Same problem with

10:37

some of the successors. I mean, probably the

10:39

low point for the DNC was when Obama

10:41

was president. It was an incredibly popular president,

10:43

which meant that the grassroots stuff never got

10:46

done. I didn't know

10:48

between that and Biden. I mean, Biden, Biden's

10:51

at least allowed the DNC a bigger

10:54

role in sort of party stuff.

10:57

But it's still like here,

11:01

the DNC has been under the thumb of a

11:03

Democratic president for 12 of the 20

11:05

years since you were there. Right. 12 of the 16 years

11:07

since you left. And

11:10

the idea that when you have the

11:12

presidency, the DNC gets weaker. Like

11:15

this has to become a cycle that

11:17

has to end. I agree. And,

11:20

you know, there has to be there has to be

11:22

some spine. I mean, we have a real opportunity here

11:25

to have a chair who understands that the

11:27

role of the DNC is to help support

11:30

states. And the state parties are not that different. I'm

11:32

not taking the you know, I'm not

11:34

saying all the state parties are wonderful. There are plenty

11:37

of state parties that are run the same way. It's

11:39

a good old boys club. Florida and Pennsylvania come to

11:41

mind immediately. But there are a lot of state parties

11:43

that don't function so well either in part because they

11:45

don't have any money. Mm

11:48

hmm. Some of it seems to be

11:50

it's funny you point out Pennsylvania,

11:52

the finger pointing about the get

11:54

out the vote in Philadelphia. You

11:57

know, usually it's about, well, my group didn't get

11:59

the big. check. That's why Philadelphia didn't turn out.

12:01

And then so and so. No, my group, you

12:04

know, we didn't get the right resources we needed, which

12:06

also meant, no, I didn't get the, I didn't get

12:08

to control things here. It was, was

12:11

Philadelphia turn out more of a fight over that? I

12:13

have no idea. I mean, I don't, I'm not familiar with

12:15

the in goings on in

12:18

places, but basically, basically

12:21

the problem is in

12:23

a lot of the big cities, you do have political

12:26

organization that were politely known as

12:28

bosses. And they do have to

12:30

have their, you know, their resources. And you know,

12:32

the problem is it gets to be gets to

12:34

be mostly a boys club that gets smaller

12:37

and smaller, the older and older that people have

12:39

been there for years get. So you've really got

12:41

to do better than that. You've got to go

12:43

to the grassroots. You really do. Somebody brought up

12:45

the AOC one, and that's a sign of the

12:47

party moving to the left and all this kind

12:49

of stuff. This is a few years ago. AOC

12:52

people misunderstood what AOC

12:55

represented AOC is

12:57

left less so than she was

12:59

when she was elected. But her genius had nothing

13:02

to do with her position on the political spectrum.

13:04

It had to do with her willingness to knock

13:06

on doors and get volunteers. And she ran an

13:08

incredible organization and beat the number three guy in

13:10

the house who had done a great job for

13:12

his constituency. But he was a creature of Washington

13:14

and thought he was going to win without

13:17

doing too much work. And that's we

13:19

don't I'm not advocating we throw out

13:21

every member of Congress. I really am

13:23

not. But I am advocating that we

13:25

have people on the ground who knock

13:27

on every single door and run for

13:29

office. Right. People that should be pushing

13:32

the train here are the people running

13:34

for the school board and the city

13:36

council and all these kinds of

13:38

things. And we do not do that. And we

13:40

need to do it. I'm not totally convinced that

13:42

state parties even can do that. Well,

13:45

you know, what's interesting about you is, you know,

13:48

I'm old enough to remember when you were

13:50

considered a conservative Democrat back in 1998 because

13:52

you opposed Clinton on something and I'm old

13:54

enough to remember when you became a darling

13:56

of the progressive left. But

13:58

when you were DNC chair I think

14:01

the reason there was a campaign to stop you is the

14:03

assumption was it was going to go way to left You

14:05

didn't you you really seem to be very

14:08

tactical that you didn't you you went out

14:10

of your way to keep ideology

14:13

out of it It's

14:15

not surprising to me again governors Usually

14:18

governors behave that way when you have a legislature you've

14:20

got a you've always got to figure out how to

14:23

Talk to every flavor of a

14:26

member of your party But

14:28

let's be honest. This is going to be

14:31

a fight that has ideology involved here

14:33

How would you navigate the sort of

14:35

the progressives versus the I

14:37

don't know what to call the non progressives

14:40

the the establishment? The sort of mainstream liberals

14:42

however you want to refer to them. How

14:44

would you be navigating that? I would navigate

14:46

I don't care what their position on issues

14:48

is if they clearly want to control the

14:50

DNC so they can have a Issues

14:53

platform. They shouldn't be elected period If

14:56

DNC is not a place to have Ideological fights

14:58

and anybody that goes to the DNC and tries

15:01

to be the chairman for an ideological reason should

15:03

be dismissed out of hand This

15:05

is an organizational thing and I'd

15:08

like I need somebody with a big picture here

15:10

and there's too many people in the Democratic Party

15:12

This is probably true It's certainly true in the

15:14

Republican Party witnessed the farce of the how the

15:16

Republicans in the house were last last

15:19

term The

15:21

job of the chairman is to make sure

15:23

as many Democrats are elected as possible You

15:25

do not do that by driving wedges and

15:28

choosing candidates based on whatever their views are

15:30

let the voters do that What

15:32

you do is make sure you have good candidates. They're

15:34

willing to do the work It does not do also

15:36

do any good to get the local guy You

15:39

know who's the disc jockey to put

15:42

his name in if they'd or her name in

15:44

if they don't do any work This

15:46

is right and and they have to be committed

15:48

they Have to be committed

15:51

to trying to make the country a better place.

15:53

There are a whole bunch of organizations democracy for

15:55

America was one Of them there. They eventually went

15:57

broke But run

15:59

for something is another one that run for something

16:01

is something that we shouldn't have to have a

16:03

run for something that that ought to be part

16:05

of the that should be the job of the

16:07

DNC right the part and it is the job

16:09

of the DNC. So

16:14

one of the day of it's so obvious

16:16

that they they need this infusion of of

16:18

a 50 state strategy you sort of made

16:20

it a

16:22

big part of your pitch

16:24

to becoming DNC chair and

16:27

I will I just remember at the time going

16:30

I can't believe you have to say it. Look

16:34

it Washington really is middle

16:36

school on steroids. I mean when you get

16:38

there you're a very important person so in

16:40

your own mind a legend in

16:42

their own mind and there and a

16:44

lot of them are really smart and really good and

16:46

really helpful but you

16:48

can't get carried away with yourself. There is

16:51

something about Potomac itis and and

16:53

it happens to everybody and it's usually the

16:55

downfall of the party for a while and

16:57

the Republicans have done it to look at

16:59

the ridiculous farce that the House of Representatives

17:01

was under the Republicans. I'm not actually I'm

17:04

not one of the reasons I'm

17:06

not jumping out the window over Trump's ascension and

17:09

his crazy policies is I think even if he

17:11

has a majority of three or four in the

17:13

House who's going to vote to get rid of

17:15

Medicare or Medicaid and who's going

17:17

to vote to cut the you know the

17:19

the Social Security budget. I don't think so I

17:21

think they're going to do what Republicans always do

17:24

they're going to give huge tax cuts to

17:26

their billionaire donors and run the deficit up even

17:28

higher but they're not

17:30

going to have the nerve because they're going to because they're

17:32

going to lose seats and lose control of the House to

17:35

get anything done. I mean this is

17:37

you know Washington is a poisonous place.

17:39

I truly as a I suppose liberal

17:41

Democrat I absolutely believe in term limits

17:43

for the House the Senate and the

17:45

Supreme Court which is now descended into

17:47

being a corrupt mess with with no

17:49

approval ratings to speak of in the

17:51

country. Let me go back to actually

17:54

implementing a 50 state strategy. There's some

17:57

states can you can move along faster

17:59

than. than others. Yes. Okay.

18:02

We know this. Take a Florida in Texas.

18:05

How do you invest

18:07

in those states so that

18:09

there's a that there's long term progress made,

18:13

but at the same

18:15

time it doesn't become a resource suck, right?

18:17

Like it's this balance. I've

18:19

watched the national party basically abandoned those

18:22

two states and then they jump in

18:24

late because they see a poll

18:26

and then, and it's like, well, it's too

18:28

late now guys. You know, had you maybe

18:30

worked on this two years ago, had you

18:32

gotten, you know, I'm a Floridian and you

18:34

got Mr. Morgan and Morgan there to run

18:37

the big, you know, a big, a big

18:39

super pack on behalf of your side. Maybe

18:41

you'd be in a better place. How

18:43

do you sort of build long-term in

18:46

those two places, but then also,

18:48

you know, get

18:50

yourself in a position to say, when

18:53

the white house in 28, there are two

18:55

very different states. So you can't treat them

18:57

both the same. There is

18:59

a, there is actually some, a fair amount of good

19:02

stuff going on in Texas. And

19:05

you just have that, that is really do

19:07

have to go door to door. If you

19:09

don't go door to door, you're not going

19:11

to overcome the bias of the electorate towards

19:13

Republicans. I mean, people keep saying we're making

19:15

progress. We're making progress. Yeah. But we always

19:17

fall five points short. Right.

19:20

The only way you can fix that is to

19:22

have a long standing relationship with the people whom,

19:24

so this idea of bringing busloads of kids down

19:26

and knock on doors in Texas, it's a lot

19:29

better than doing nothing, a lot better, but

19:31

it doesn't substitute for your, the daughter of

19:33

your next door neighbor coming and knocking on

19:35

your door, who you know, and who

19:37

you don't have to scream and yell out about

19:39

Trump or whatever you're yelling at. That's

19:42

how you build. This has got to be a, this

19:44

is a country of 300 million people. We've got

19:46

to treat it as if it was your neighborhood

19:48

and we don't do that. Florida is a much

19:50

different problem. One of the

19:53

Morgan and Morgan has something to do with

19:55

it, but there that's it.

19:57

I know. Well, cause he, John Morgan has, he

19:59

plays an out. role because of frankly how

20:01

resource starved the party. Yes, but he's not the

20:04

only person who's done that in the history

20:06

of the Democratic party. No doubt. And better

20:08

having money than nothing at all, but it's

20:10

a disaster. Why is it a disaster? We

20:12

need to be on the ground with

20:14

Spanish-speaking kids from Venezuela whose parents came

20:17

from Venezuela explaining why the Democrats are

20:19

better. That gets an

20:21

audience at the door. Sending a kid

20:23

back from New York is certainly better than nothing and it's

20:25

great for the kids from New York as they learn a

20:27

lot. But it is not going to win us votes in

20:30

Miami. And when

20:32

you see, you know, it's funny.

20:35

It's like you look at this 53 Senate seats and

20:37

I look at the 26th cycle. For

20:40

just 52. Not so fast. You're

20:42

right. Fair enough. We don't know. That's what it would be. 52 or 53.

20:45

Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. We have not

20:48

called it at NBC. Yes. Or North. No,

20:51

AP called it way too early. I know. I mean,

20:54

they just did. They may be right, but it's like

20:56

their Arizona call last time. They know they're there. They've

20:59

had to pull a lot of calls in the past. They

21:01

get weirdly aggressive and I don't

21:03

know who they think keeping score on this

21:05

hour. I like sitting here. I'm like, there

21:07

is no like the National who calls election

21:10

first scorecard that's presented to nobody cares for

21:12

a lot of right. AP is not my

21:14

favorite organization. They behaved abysmally in my campaign.

21:17

They it's a local head of

21:20

AP telling them that's not true. That's not

21:22

true. You shouldn't print that they did it

21:24

anyway. Well, it's

21:26

a they're just a symptom of

21:29

the larger problem. Yes, that's right. The loss

21:31

of newspapers and all sorts of things and

21:33

and and that that is something I hope

21:35

to be working on

21:37

that project. But you are go back

21:39

to podcasts replacing newspaper. So no, it

21:41

does. But I also think we need

21:43

to fix our local news environment. Yes,

21:45

that's true. Absolutely. We don't cover we

21:48

don't cover national news through a local prism and

21:51

we got rid of when we when we I

21:54

always joke. We have this building called the

21:56

National Press Building. And when I first got

21:58

to DC every office actually had a Washington

22:00

Bureau. in it. The Cleveland Plain Dealer, the

22:02

Rutland Herald, probably even Burlington Free Press would

22:04

have somebody. Everybody had somebody. And

22:07

then the internet comes along and we think, oh, we don't

22:09

need 75 versions of these

22:11

stories. Yes, you do. Turns

22:13

out you do because you need to find out how

22:16

the local, how this impacts you locally. And when we

22:18

got rid of that, it disconnected a whole bunch of

22:20

people. Chuck, you are the

22:22

press version of me. This is

22:25

exactly, no, I'm serious. The parallels

22:27

between what's happened in the media

22:29

world and what's happened in democratic

22:31

politics are incredibly similar. When you

22:34

write the nationalization of everything away,

22:36

you lose credibility. Honestly,

22:38

New York Times may be the old gray lady,

22:40

but they don't have a hell of a lot

22:43

of credibility in Rutland, Vermont. The Rutland paper died

22:45

or did, whether when there was one that worked.

22:48

And that that is, no, this is

22:50

a much bigger issue than what the

22:52

NC and the press and all that

22:54

stuff. It's the destruction, local between human

22:57

beings. And that's what I'm advocating for.

23:00

No, I mean, you're right. I mean, that's a nice way

23:02

of framing it. I mean, it is you

23:04

want to pierce red and blue. You

23:06

have a better shot locally at covering

23:08

high school sports, covering youth sports, where

23:10

everybody wants to see their kid. You

23:13

know, I'm convinced. Look, you

23:15

know, I joke, a guy named

23:17

Craig one day decided that

23:19

classified advertising shouldn't cost money. Yada,

23:21

yada, yada. Donald Trump got elected

23:23

president. A lot of

23:25

things happen there. I figured you'd like that one. But,

23:29

you know, the fact is, I don't blame Craig

23:32

Newmark for what he did. You know, it

23:34

just turned out that every newspaper of 50,000

23:36

circulation or less, a majority of the revenue

23:38

was classified. So now our job is to

23:41

go find a new revenue source. And

23:43

and and that's, you know, that's where

23:45

I'm hoping I'm obsessed with youth sports, being the

23:47

answer that high school sports and youth sports, especially

23:50

with all this money going into college, that you're

23:52

going to see more interest in it. Women's

23:55

sports interest has never been greater. And

23:57

we all want to see our kids and grandkids

23:59

and nieces and nieces. nephews on TV. And there's

24:01

no reason why the local outlet can't be your

24:03

home to find any youth sport, right? And if

24:06

you suddenly can be that in your community, then

24:09

they may accidentally read your information that tells them

24:11

something that's happening. We have a paper like that

24:13

in Burlington, there's nothing left of it. The one

24:15

thing it does really well is read sports, but

24:17

you can get that off the television. So, you

24:19

know, no, it's true. It gives me hope for

24:21

front porch forum. That could

24:24

possibly develop something. But,

24:26

you know, we've lost locality and it's

24:28

because of the internet and, you know,

24:30

progress is progress. And there has to

24:32

be a way to, to, to salt,

24:34

to slake that thirst. And, and that's

24:36

really what I'm talking about too.

24:38

We have, you know, right. Politics is in

24:41

this case, the politics. Yeah. Yeah.

24:43

Political discussions gotten, I mean, look at, you

24:46

know, you look at the small town, you've probably

24:48

seen it up in Vermont. I've seen it. I

24:50

spent a lot of time in the panhandle of

24:52

Florida. You'd be shocked at these small city councils

24:54

that get consumed with national politics. Yes. And it's

24:56

all because the locals aren't keeping them focused on

24:59

local. But I really believe that

25:01

that's sort of the problem. The politicians aren't going to

25:03

door to door either. No. They

25:05

need to do that. I mean, we're

25:07

going to have some ugly fights up here

25:09

over school funding. We pay a hell of

25:11

a lot of money for not such a

25:13

rich state and the results aren't all that

25:15

good. And, and we're going to have some

25:17

really fights over here. Let me ask you this. In

25:20

a larger way, and I say

25:22

this as a sort of, I'm looking for somebody

25:24

running for president with, that's thinking this way, which

25:27

is, you know, we haven't

25:29

really redone our public school system since

25:31

we started it. It's the

25:33

same. It, you know, we haven't, it

25:36

hasn't changed and we've

25:38

instead created this Frankenstein

25:41

version of a public, you know, I look

25:43

at just, I know what happens, it's happened

25:45

in Florida. We have a four tiered system

25:48

now, right? Charters and privates and, and magnets

25:50

and then whatever's

25:52

left. And we know all

25:54

this. Have

25:57

you, I mean, why, why, it feels like we

25:59

know. No politician has wanted to

26:01

take this. Nobody's happy with how the public school

26:03

system works right now. And

26:05

all of these tinkering has like made it worse.

26:09

And I know that people, that wasn't the intent, right?

26:12

But it has made it worse. Do you

26:14

have a thought about why that? You can't

26:16

use Florida. I mean, Florida is run by

26:18

a nutcase governor and a corrupt legislature. So

26:21

you can't really judge everything by Florida. And

26:23

they do have, I, of course, have relatives

26:25

in Florida and they send their

26:27

kids to the Catholic school on a voucher and

26:29

they're not Catholic because the public school is a

26:31

disaster. And so are all the other, I mean,

26:33

but that's it. Florida

26:36

is an exceptionally, Florida is definitely in

26:38

the running for the worst state and run state in the

26:40

country. I mean, you're going to strip all the books out

26:42

of the library and then you hope to do something for

26:44

education. Give me a break. What is going on here? So

26:47

let's use a more normal state. Let's pick

26:49

a Republican state like Indiana. They really are

26:51

trying to do so. And they're pretty conservative,

26:54

but they are trying to do something that's

26:56

going to make the school system better. They're

26:58

I'm actually a fan of public charter schools.

27:00

I'm not a fan of private charter schools

27:02

and I'm not a fan of vouchers, but

27:04

I do believe that there needs to be

27:06

competition among schools. And to

27:09

my son and his wife are very

27:11

involved in all this stuff and they

27:13

can work with conservative Republicans. They're not

27:15

going to work with Jeff. Yes. Who

27:18

wants to do who God knows what schools,

27:21

but they are going to work with people. You

27:24

know who's doing an interesting

27:27

job is Arkansas Governor Sanders,

27:29

Huckabee Sanders. And he's

27:31

a really, you know, a Republican. But

27:36

you know, she has ideas and she wants to make

27:38

the school system better and you can make the school

27:40

system better. But you can't just take

27:42

it. What's happened in Florida

27:44

is the school system has become a whipping

27:46

boy for the politicians. And that

27:48

doesn't help either. You've got to work with the people that

27:50

work in the schools to make the schools better. It

27:53

does seem as if states that

27:56

have large rural populations understand that

27:58

you can't just school choice. way

28:00

out of this problem. Right. Right. Because

28:02

I, where, where are

28:04

you building the second school to have choice if

28:06

you live in a community where

28:09

your nearest neighbor's a half mile away? Right.

28:11

And the other problem that probably doesn't work,

28:13

and we, we're going to, we're about to

28:15

face the Waterloo on this one in Vermont,

28:17

because the Republicans did quite

28:19

well in the last election, and it

28:21

was because of affordability and taxes going

28:24

way up. And

28:26

nobody, including the Republican governor coming up with any

28:28

kind of a solution. Well, now they're going to

28:30

have to do that. And our

28:32

system is not so different than Arkansas's, because

28:34

of course, it's not nearly as

28:36

big as Arkansas, but we all have local schools.

28:39

And in the big areas like the county I

28:41

live in, you can't do some

28:43

sort of school choice, but you can't do that

28:45

in a small town. The problem is, the

28:48

legislature doesn't have the you know what's

28:50

to make the hard decision. So when

28:52

we redid the school formula, nobody

28:55

wanted to tell local people that they had

28:57

to shut their school down. So we have

28:59

the same financing system. But

29:01

I mean, the same school system, but it's

29:03

financed differently. There was a wonderful young lady

29:06

who did her thesis on,

29:08

on the school changes. And it turned

29:10

out that almost all the changes, the

29:13

money all went to the administration and none

29:15

of them, none of it went to actually

29:17

the students and the classes. So and that

29:19

was because the legislature didn't have the you

29:21

know what's to make the really hard decision.

29:23

The current governor came up

29:25

with an idea I thought was crazy, but I'm

29:27

beginning to think it might not be the bad

29:30

thing is that the state run the education system.

29:32

Now that's going to be holy hell because people

29:34

love going in and voting on their school budgets.

29:36

But then they get mad at the result when

29:38

the taxes go through the seat through the roof.

29:41

Boy, that's an interesting decision. Maybe a small

29:43

state can do that. You'd never

29:45

see a large state try to run that. Nor should

29:47

they. Nor should they. Can you imagine the New York

29:50

City school? Are you running the school? Oh my goodness.

29:52

I think there's some people that think New York City's

29:54

school system ought to be broken up by borough. Trying

29:58

to break it up entirely. Yeah. you

30:00

know, or you could have what Texas does is apparently

30:02

any, any two people can start their own school system.

30:05

Sort of a, it's a, it's amazing to me, the

30:07

independent school district of this and the independent school district.

30:09

You start like, look around, you're like, how many of

30:11

these do you have? But we've gotten off on a

30:14

tangent. Let me go back to a question I was

30:16

about to ask you before we rightfully

30:18

got off on this. This is an obsession

30:20

of mine, why we don't have more conversations

30:22

about, about schools. Cause I think more

30:25

voters are thinking about this issue and more

30:27

politicians don't talk about it. It's

30:29

one of those disconnects that I think are out there. It's

30:31

part of it's because it's federal state and I get that.

30:38

Support for this podcast comes from progressive,

30:40

a leader in RV insurance. We've

30:43

all made RVing mistakes like not pest

30:45

proofing the RV for winter, but there's

30:47

one mistake you shouldn't make not ensuring

30:49

your travel trailer, progressive RV insurance can

30:51

protect your travel trailer. When your auto

30:54

or home insurance can get a quote

30:56

at progressive.com, progressive casualty insurance company and

30:58

affiliates. Hey,

31:02

I'm Ryan Reynolds at Mint Mobile. We

31:04

like to do the opposite of what

31:06

big wireless does. They charge you a

31:08

lot. We charge you a little. So

31:10

naturally when they announced they'd be raising

31:12

their prices due to inflation, we decided

31:15

to deflate our prices due to not

31:17

hating you. That's right. We're

31:19

cutting the price of Mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give

31:23

it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45

31:26

upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers

31:29

on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra

31:31

speed slower above 40 gigabytes. See details.

31:33

Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're

31:36

from DSW because DSW has the exact

31:38

right shoes for whatever you're into right

31:41

now. You know, like the

31:43

sneakers that make office hours feel like happy

31:45

hour, the boots that turn

31:47

grocery aisles into runways and all the

31:49

styles that show off the many sides

31:51

of you from daydreamer to multitasker and

31:54

everything in between because you do it

31:56

all in really great shoes. Find

31:59

a shoe for every year. at

32:01

your DSW store or dsw.com. There's

32:06

a lot of Democrats who are worried that as they,

32:08

as they, the shrinking number of

32:10

states they're competitive in their path

32:12

to 50 to 54 Senate

32:14

seats is about it. Right.

32:17

Um, now I think there are other states out there that

32:19

they ought to be attempting to compete in that they don't.

32:23

If you were DNC chair right now, looking at this

32:25

26 map, you know,

32:27

there's really only two swing states on there. That's

32:29

Maine and North Carolina that are Republican held. Um,

32:34

and you, you know, but then I look at what a

32:36

Dan Osborne did in Nebraska. Uh,

32:38

and it's like, it's a reminder anybody

32:41

can turn any race competitive if you

32:43

find the right candidate. Yeah.

32:46

Uh, look at, uh, look at the Senate race

32:48

in Alabama that we had a day sitting in

32:50

the seat for two, two years

32:53

or something like that. So

32:55

yes, you can do that, but that again

32:57

requires somebody with a local

33:00

reputation who, who's respected locally,

33:02

not a transplant like

33:05

the guy from Pennsylvania who really lives in

33:07

Connecticut and bringing it now. He may or

33:09

may not end up winning that race. Now

33:11

he had a run, but it's probably, but

33:13

it, because he ran twice, arguably probably helped

33:15

them the second time. And Trump had a

33:17

somewhat of a wave behind him that probably

33:19

helped him through. Um, but

33:21

you know, if I'm, first

33:23

of all, I don't think the DNC has a

33:25

lot to do with running the set for the

33:28

Senate races. Let's be real, but you can start

33:30

opening the doors in places like Kansas, like I

33:32

think Kansas and Iowa are two

33:34

states that the parties walked. I

33:37

mean, look, Kansas clearly is moving slowly in

33:39

the Democrats direction, but they don't seem to

33:42

actually go to that next level and say,

33:44

okay, try to do more here. And

33:46

Iowa is a state that I

33:48

think small states like Montana, like

33:51

the Dakotas, if you find the right

33:53

candidate, you can make it a, you can make it a

33:55

competitive state, but you've got to put some effort into it.

33:57

Yeah, but that's not the job of the DNC. The job

33:59

of the DNC. and C is to

34:01

improve the whole climate in those

34:03

states for Democrats. So I mean,

34:05

look, the way it's set up today,

34:07

and I don't think this is a bad thing because

34:09

it's going to happen no matter whether I like it

34:11

or not, is to have the D and the D

34:13

triple C, the congressional people and

34:16

the D.S.C. see the Senate people. Look,

34:18

those leaders in the House and the Senate

34:21

are going to run their operations for the

34:23

Senate House, and they run them mostly very,

34:25

very well. Schumer is very, very good at

34:27

this. And he's going to

34:29

very, very good at raising money. So I'm

34:31

very happy to have most of the heavy

34:34

duty lifting and decision making made not

34:36

of the DNC for who might run, but

34:39

by those leaders who have their own positions

34:41

at stake. And I know they're going to

34:43

do the right thing. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes

34:45

they screw up and put somebody nominally in

34:47

charge. This never happens to the D.S. because

34:51

Chuck runs that with an iron fist no matter

34:53

who the chair is. But sometimes the House is

34:55

better than it is than other times. That's

34:58

not the role of the DNC. The role of

35:01

the DNC is to build the party. And you

35:03

don't build the party by plucking somebody who you've

35:05

got a lot of money or you think you

35:07

can work with for a House

35:09

seat or congressional seat. That will be well

35:11

done. We don't have to worry about that.

35:13

What we have to worry about is what's

35:16

happening to the Democratic Party. It's being eroded

35:18

at the local level. That's why I thought

35:20

it's so interesting that you talked about the

35:22

local press issues. It's the decay is the

35:24

same kind of decay. It is. And

35:27

when and it's the loss of interpersonal

35:29

connections at the local level, it's really

35:31

bad for the country. Neatly letting us

35:33

leaving aside the Democratic Party or the

35:35

newspaper industry or whatever we're talking about.

35:37

That is what the DNC can help.

35:39

But it can't help if it's if

35:41

it's being connected to the presidency

35:43

or the House or the Senate, because

35:45

they have very little interest in that.

35:48

Their concern is the immediate concern of

35:50

getting to be the leader again or

35:52

the speaker and getting the plurality in

35:54

the majority in both places. My concern

35:57

as the DNC chair should be to

35:59

make. sure that there are a choice

36:02

of 15 candidates they can go

36:04

to for this Congress because they're all

36:06

in the state legislature and they're all

36:08

in purple districts and people like them

36:10

no matter which side of the political

36:12

aisle they're on. You did

36:14

a four year stint. Two years was for

36:17

the midterm and then you obviously oversaw a pretty,

36:19

I mean it was

36:22

frankly a classic historical primary fight

36:24

there between Clinton and Obama. Is

36:28

it really two different jobs? Is it like two

36:30

years it's one type of job and two years

36:32

it's another type of job? No. Or

36:35

how would you describe that? Everybody's term is different. And

36:41

what we did was not nearly enough. I mean

36:43

it was the start and then of course we'd

36:45

all fell apart when Obama took over and set

36:47

up a parallel organization. That was pretty much the

36:49

end of the DNC for a long time. Yes

36:52

it was. My role between Hillary

36:54

and Obama was to be fair

36:57

and to referee. So

37:00

everybody, of course, calls from mostly Obama

37:02

complaining about this or that and all

37:05

this crap. And Hillary

37:07

I was close to for a long time. I

37:09

mean Hillary was largely responsible for the fact that

37:11

every child in my state has had health insurance

37:13

since 1991. But

37:17

I played it right down the middle and I was

37:19

really careful. In fact, at the end of the day

37:21

there was some shenanigans in the rules committee that would

37:23

have advantaged Hillary and I killed it. Not

37:25

because it was Hillary that was doing it, just because when you

37:27

set the rules you need to set the rules. And

37:30

so that was part of my role was to be

37:33

the referee between those two campaigns.

37:36

But the real part of my role was to

37:38

watch out for the House and the Senate and

37:40

try again to get

37:42

the state strong. And we made some progress. Looking

37:45

back on it is not nearly enough progress but

37:47

at the time it was revolutionary and people were

37:49

furious inside the bell way. We gave, I went

37:52

to all 50 states. I found out

37:54

for example in Alaska that they had five people

37:56

who were working for them that really knew what

37:58

they were doing and they had a primitive database

38:00

at the time. So we

38:02

started putting while all you invested in there.

38:05

They've had a Democratic senator, they've had multiple years

38:07

where they've elected a Democratic member of Congress. I

38:09

don't think that's an accident. Maybe

38:12

not. But they had good people on the ground. We

38:14

didn't have to go find them. There was a rule.

38:17

You they just needed some money, though, right? We

38:19

would give you the money and you would have

38:22

to send your people or we would come out

38:24

and train five, five times a year.

38:26

And if you didn't come, you didn't get the money.

38:29

So they we'd have a maybe

38:31

a, you know, one in Oklahoma for the

38:33

surrounding states or one in Alaska had to

38:35

have their own, of course, or there were

38:37

they sometimes would come east. But

38:40

that was the rule. And you know,

38:42

the big states, we didn't have much of an

38:44

effect on California, New York, those are places empires

38:46

of their own, but they have helped they had

38:48

healthy ecosystems at that time, right? I thought you

38:51

were gonna say healthy ego systems, which was also

38:53

true. Both are very

38:55

good. Yes, still do today. Yes.

38:58

In when you went into these

39:00

red states, what

39:03

did it feel like you were bringing water

39:06

to thirsty people? Yes, I mean,

39:08

in some of these places, it was like the first time

39:10

the DNC had come, you know, where the inspiration came from

39:12

is when I was running for president, we

39:14

had to stop. Or

39:17

I insisted that we were flying to

39:19

California that we stop in Idaho, because

39:21

I wanted a 50 day campaign. So everybody

39:23

grumbled, but I after all was the candidate,

39:25

and I wasn't shy about it. And

39:28

so we stopped in Idaho, there were about 1000 people

39:30

at the airport in Boise, as we refueled

39:32

1000 democrats in Idaho.

39:35

And I said, This is ridiculous. And I never

39:37

forgot that. I thought, you know, Idaho, which is

39:39

a very Republican state, they have democrats there. And

39:42

we owe it to them to show up. And

39:45

it's as simple as that. And

39:50

what I mean, did you really meet resistance?

39:52

Or once you won, there was no more

39:54

resistance? Are you kidding? There was resistance every

39:56

day I was there. I

39:59

just ignore like. Well, some examples

40:01

I can't give you, but there were, I

40:04

was shaken down by members of Congress who

40:06

wanted me to employ their people and stuff

40:08

like that. And I didn't use any bad

40:10

language. I just said no. And

40:12

I kept saying no. And that was

40:14

the way it was. It helped

40:17

having been a governor, because you're used to

40:19

saying no and taking the heat for it. And I didn't care. Let

40:23

me ask you something since I think you were a

40:25

victim of this. And that

40:27

is one of the observations I've made about sort

40:29

of winning presidential candidates and

40:32

losing presidential candidates is

40:34

that whenever the establishment comes in to

40:36

give an assist to

40:39

a nominee, to somebody that eventually wins a

40:41

nominee, it usually backfires. That

40:44

person is not as strong in the general. And,

40:47

and maybe, and I don't know how much of

40:49

this is chicken and egg and maybe there is,

40:51

but I look at the last three Democratic nominees

40:53

and in many ways they, they had an establishment

40:55

assist in some form or another,

40:58

whether it was, you know, Obama

41:01

sort of putting his arm around Clinton and

41:03

that sort of keeping all the, the, the

41:05

Gen X rising stars from running that all

41:07

would eventually run in 20, right? Your bookers,

41:09

your club of showers, your Bennets, or

41:13

Jim Clyburn sort of stopping the race, right?

41:16

With the endorsement or obviously what happened with Kamala

41:18

Harris. And frankly, it happened to you, right?

41:21

You were the grassroots candidate and

41:23

Kerry comes in sort of over the top and Kerry

41:25

ends up losing. Bill

41:28

Clinton had to fight the establishment to

41:30

get his nomination. Obama arguably going up

41:32

against the Clintons had to do that.

41:35

Am I, am I overstating it or

41:38

do you think there's something to this? I

41:40

think you're overstating it. I mean, I lost

41:42

fair and square. The scream speech wasn't fair

41:44

because as you know, the molt box was

41:46

plugged in and blah, blah, blah. But the

41:48

fact of the matter was I wasn't as

41:50

well organized as Kerry was. I mean, I

41:52

was supposed to, I was polling first in

41:54

Iowa and I came in third. When you

41:56

do that as an insurgent, the magic goes

41:58

out of the, out of the now quicker,

42:00

quicker than. for an establishment candidate. So I

42:02

think your thesis is correct. There's always an

42:04

establishment candidate and usually they're not as strong

42:07

as they could be, but you don't know

42:09

what you're getting with a candidate like me.

42:12

And so I can understand why people were nervous

42:14

about that or

42:17

Bernie or so and so. I

42:19

mean, you know, I don't have

42:21

a lot of ill will about

42:24

my losing because I didn't lose because of

42:26

the scream speech. It was all crap and

42:28

blah, blah, blah. But I lost

42:30

because we weren't as well organized as John Kerry

42:32

and that matters. And suppose that

42:35

would continue into a general election. So

42:38

what is the lesson to learn from that though, Ben?

42:45

I mean, cause I do think the voters

42:47

not having a say or not, I

42:50

look at it and it's like, and this is a, I

42:53

get criticized when I say this very broadly.

42:55

When I say is Biden

42:57

didn't really have a base. Clinton didn't really have

42:59

a base. Harris didn't really have a base. And

43:01

what I mean by that is you know the

43:03

difference, right? It's when the people that are crawling,

43:05

and I'm not saying there weren't people that were

43:07

gonna crawl on broken glass for Harris, but

43:10

you really connect with your base after

43:13

a long primary campaign and

43:15

not having it, right? Biden didn't

43:17

have it. Harris didn't have it. That

43:20

can matter. And I think that, and I don't

43:22

know how to measure it, but I feel like

43:24

it matters. I'm

43:27

not sure I entirely buy into that

43:30

because I think you build the base as you go

43:33

along. By the

43:35

time Clinton got to the nomination,

43:37

he had built a terrific base.

43:41

Right. And Harris had a terrific base

43:45

because she was Harris. She

43:47

was a woman, she was of color. She

43:50

had been vice president. And I also

43:52

disagree about Biden. My

43:54

feeling about Biden's assent to the presidency

43:57

was, it was a, it

43:59

was a, It was a very interesting

44:01

time. My theory about it was that

44:03

Trump had just exhausted people

44:05

and he's an exhausting person both publicly

44:07

and privately. And that then

44:10

along comes the pandemic and people are

44:12

really exhausted. And then Bernie is an

44:14

exhausting person. He's

44:17

very demanding and very, this is this, this, this, this,

44:19

this, this. And so Biden is sort

44:22

of the, oh my God, can't we get out

44:24

of this? So I'm not sure that Biden was

44:26

thrust upon us. I do agree that Clyburn, you

44:28

know, greased the skids for him in South Carolina

44:30

and so forth and so on. But

44:32

I don't, other than that, I'm not sure how big

44:35

an influence Clyburn had. I think he had more of

44:37

an influence after Biden was elected. But I think the

44:39

voters chose a path. And

44:42

the fact of the matter is, and I

44:45

truly believe this, I don't owe Biden anything,

44:47

but Biden had the most

44:49

successful domestic agenda of any president

44:51

since Lyndon Johnson. If you

44:53

look what he did, now is it, all right.

44:55

Is it successful if the public doesn't buy into

44:57

it? Of course. I mean, how much does

44:59

that matter? It matters

45:01

to get reelected, but this guy has created

45:04

thousands and thousands of jobs, almost all of

45:06

which are in states that didn't vote for

45:08

him. So it's not successful. Politically,

45:11

it may not be successful. But

45:13

in terms of what he did for the country, it

45:16

was incredible. He has started to address

45:18

the reason that we lose to people

45:20

like Donald Trump, which is that white

45:22

working class men, especially, feeling

45:25

incredibly disenfranchised because of the rise of

45:27

women, which, you know, too

45:29

bad for you is what I say, and

45:31

the loss of jobs in rural areas, which

45:33

used to be good paying manufacturing jobs, and

45:36

their life has been turned upside down. And

45:38

Biden was the guy that was going in

45:40

and actually doing something. Trump's not gonna do

45:42

anything about this. Trump doesn't care about anybody

45:44

but himself. Well, he's inheriting now twice

45:46

now. He's been inherited.

45:49

He's very skillfully- Recovering economies,

45:51

right. He inherited a recovering

45:53

economy from Obama. Right. And

45:56

he's inheriting the recovering COVID economy. Right.

46:00

Biden. So he's he's he is

46:02

lucked out on that timing. Yeah. Well, we may not

46:04

be so lucky three years. Well, I guess the

46:06

reason I would push back on

46:08

this base conversation is that I look at

46:10

how fast voters abandon

46:13

Biden after the Afghanistan withdrawal.

46:15

And I just refuse to believe it was

46:17

because of the actual Afghanistan withdrawal that kept

46:20

voters away from it. It was sort of

46:22

like it's one of they

46:24

didn't give him the benefit of the doubt

46:28

that they that I think

46:30

Barack Obama was being given longer. You

46:32

know, he didn't get the same length

46:34

of time. And maybe it's COVID impatience.

46:36

OK, that is fair, too. I'm not

46:39

going to sit here and did that.

46:41

That everybody had a short had short

46:43

patience after after COVID. But

46:45

he never recovered from the Afghanistan moment.

46:48

And I'm thinking back

46:50

now starting to wonder, is

46:52

that the evidence that he didn't have a base, right?

46:55

He didn't have that devoted base that was going to be with

46:57

him until the content. I think there's I would

46:59

disagree that he never recovered. I'm not sure

47:02

the Afghanistan inside the beltway, the Afghanistan thing

47:04

looked bad. His numbers never recovered. I'm not

47:06

saying he didn't recover from that moment, but

47:09

he never saw his approval ratings really get

47:11

any better. That's a different after that moment.

47:13

The different the problem functionally is that Joe

47:15

Biden was a creature of the Senate and

47:18

he was never not a creature of the Senate, even

47:20

when he was president. Now, that's

47:23

not a. So you think meaning he was

47:25

creature of Washington so much so

47:27

that whenever Washington was unpopular, he was

47:29

going to be unpopular? There's that

47:32

that he even though

47:34

I'm a big fan of Biden, there was no

47:36

question that was cognitive impairment, which is foes pounced

47:38

upon and which he, of course, then blew up

47:40

when he when he had the debate. Right.

47:43

The guy, the thing about the advantage of

47:45

having a creature of Washington is look at

47:47

the stuff he got done in three years.

47:49

And then he got to navigate Congress. Exactly.

47:51

And people people who had eight years didn't

47:53

get that done. I mean,

47:55

it was extraordinary because he was able to work with

47:58

both sides and get budget. It's

48:00

passed and do, I mean, the stuff,

48:02

he may not ever get credit for

48:04

it, but the stuff that he did

48:06

for Ohio and places like that is

48:08

just unbelievable in terms of the chip

48:10

plants and all that kind

48:13

of stuff. That's going to last. That's going to

48:15

turn around. I think it's the nub of turning

48:17

around the country in terms of getting people to

48:19

talk to each other again. I

48:22

might as well ask before I let you go, if nominated,

48:24

would you run for DNC chair again?

48:26

Absolutely not. I am. Okay.

48:29

It's absolutely time to pass this along

48:31

to a new generation and preferably somebody

48:33

far outside the Beltway. I'd

48:36

like to see a 35 or a 40 year old who's totally independent

48:38

of the Beltway apparatus, be

48:42

the chairman of the DNC. Well,

48:45

you heard it there. Maybe we'll,

48:47

maybe they'll recruit you to

48:49

be the moderator of a DNC chair debate.

48:51

I would like to see that would

48:53

be a lot of fun. Hey, Howard Dean, good to talk with

48:56

you. Thanks for having me, Chuck. Thanks for

48:58

doing this. I'm

49:01

Ryan Reynolds. Support for this

49:03

podcast comes from Progressive, a

49:05

leader in RV insurance. We've

49:08

all made RVing mistakes, like not pest

49:10

proofing the RV for winter, but there's

49:12

one mistake you shouldn't make, not insuring

49:14

your travel trailer. Progressive RV insurance can

49:16

protect your travel trailer when your auto

49:18

or home insurance can. Get

49:21

a quote at progressive.com, Progressive Casually Insurance

49:23

Company and affiliates. Hey,

49:28

I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we

49:30

like to do the opposite of what

49:32

big wireless does. They charge you a

49:34

lot, we charge you a little. So

49:36

naturally, when they announced they'd be raising

49:38

their prices due to inflation, we decided

49:40

to deflate our prices due to not

49:42

hating you. That's right. We're

49:44

cutting the price of Mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give

49:49

it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. Thanks

49:59

for watching. You got a lot there

50:02

with governor dean we talked a little local

50:04

news how to fix that education system as

50:06

you can see we both had a lot

50:08

to say about that but i think you

50:10

learned a lot about what the next the nc chair needs to

50:12

do. I had to go about doing it for

50:15

we go here's a question from jeff from massachusetts.

50:17

Give the republicans seem to really be the trump party

50:20

the democrats are in disarray is now the time for

50:22

no labels to move forward and work to run someone

50:24

in twenty twenty eight. You know

50:26

jeff i actually think no i

50:28

think that trumps victory was

50:31

resounding enough is that he's going to purge

50:33

the republican party of those folks

50:36

that might be players in a no

50:38

labels movement. And

50:41

so i think

50:43

that the way i look at

50:45

is if you

50:47

gotta see what the democrats do. No

50:51

labels will have an opportunity if it's

50:53

you know. A

50:56

democratic party that moves further to the left

50:58

and a republican party that moves closer to

51:00

trump i just don't think

51:02

the democratic party is going to do that and so what

51:04

happens is when you have a situation like this where you

51:06

essentially have one party. Trying to fill

51:08

the oppositional vacuum to

51:10

what's remaining is that it

51:12

it it's and if you're a third party movement you

51:14

gotta wait to see what remains. And

51:17

you know the question i have is is there will

51:19

there be third party action on the far left. Because

51:23

maybe the democratic party decides to

51:26

pivot away from identity politics pivot

51:28

a little more populous direction pivot

51:30

a little more you know. Now

51:33

if corporate america feels abandoned by both

51:35

parties. Perhaps

51:37

they become the seed money for for a

51:40

new labels movement and i certainly think

51:42

that. No labels may pivot

51:44

to see themselves as sort of the

51:47

a political nonpartisan or bipartisan

51:49

business wing of politics maybe

51:51

that's an opening for them. I'm

51:54

gonna actually think it's gonna be quite difficult for them

51:56

to find their way. With

51:58

one of the two parties now decide. But when when

52:00

if when you were in a role where neither party

52:02

thought they had a reform, I

52:04

think there's a lot of room for a no

52:07

labels. I think that we because the Democratic Party,

52:09

as you point out, feels in disarray right now.

52:13

And yet it's actually not that far behind. Right.

52:16

When when she's basically going to lose by

52:18

the same percentage point that Hubert Humphrey, the

52:21

last sitting, you know, and Al

52:23

Gore won the popular vote. But, you

52:25

know, the last two sitting vice Democratic

52:27

vice presidents to lose lost, you know,

52:29

basically by an eyelash and hers is

52:31

going to be say two eyelashes. So

52:33

it's not as if this is a

52:35

Dukakis level, but it was decisive

52:37

enough that it has the Democrats rethinking. And I

52:39

think because of that, I

52:41

think it makes a no labels

52:44

moment harder to to make

52:46

happen, because I think those

52:48

on the left that you would need to pair

52:50

up with those on the right are going to

52:52

be more interested in seeing if they can be

52:55

in part of reforming the Democratic Party into

52:58

something a little different and something a

53:00

little more electable. So I

53:03

think no labels is an interesting crossroads. I think a lot

53:06

of the people that they thought I think

53:08

they thought they had more opportunity if Harris won than if

53:10

Trump won. And I think the

53:12

way Trump won, the Republicans

53:14

that maybe were willing to work with a no labels

53:16

type organization, I do not think are going to be

53:19

there for them this time because

53:21

it looks like Trump's, you know, at least for the

53:23

next two years. But

53:26

hey, ask me this question again after the DNC

53:28

finds a chair and

53:30

what its identity look brand identity looks like

53:32

come 2026. Appreciate

53:36

the question. Jeff, I had

53:39

more. I was even more opinionated

53:41

about that than I thought I would be when I first saw it.

53:43

But I the more I think this through, the

53:45

more I believe there's just that this is this

53:47

is probably a pause moment for no labels more

53:50

than anything else. That's not

53:52

to say they won't have some role

53:54

legislatively, maybe creating a few bipartisan

53:56

coalitions. But but I think that's

53:58

going to be I think

54:00

you're going to have a more compliant

54:02

Republican Congress and

54:05

all of that. So anyway, appreciate the question. Got

54:08

a question? Email me at

54:10

thechucktodcastatgmail.com. You've been listening to

54:12

the Chucktodcast from NBC News. Today's episode was produced

54:14

by Elias Miller, Greg Martin, and Matt Rivera. The

54:16

music composed by Spoke Media. Thanks

54:19

for listening. Until we upload again, go Kings.

54:35

Support for this podcast comes from Progressive,

54:37

a leader in RV insurance. We've

54:39

all made RVing mistakes, like not pest

54:42

proofing the RV for winter, but there's

54:44

one mistake you shouldn't make, not insuring

54:46

your travel trailer. Progressive RV

54:48

insurance can protect your travel trailer when your auto

54:50

or home insurance can. Get

54:52

a quote at progressive.com, Progressive Casually Insurance Company

54:55

and affiliates.