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more with GEICO. have

1:14

you ever been to the Himalayas? I

1:17

haven't, haven't, but I know someone

1:19

who has. Caroline Daley's,

1:21

the Pakistan correspondent for BBC News.

1:23

Hello, I hear I hear the Himalayas

1:25

are absolutely breathtaking. Give us a

1:27

of what they look like,

1:29

what they smell like. smell I

1:32

mean, they're truly incredible, and this

1:34

particular area that I went

1:36

to, I went to, is really

1:38

special, not just because not the Himalayas

1:40

are there, which are obviously incredible to

1:42

see, but you've also got to see, but

1:44

you've also got the Karakoram and the enormous

1:46

mountain ranges that meet

1:48

in the same place same place

1:51

and through from the moment

1:53

you arrive in Gilgit -Baltistan you're

1:55

just aware of of how small you

1:57

are and how enormous this landscape

1:59

is. is. driving

2:01

along the mountain highways you will

2:04

see dust coming up from the

2:06

side of the roads because there's

2:08

been a very small but recent

2:10

landslide and then sometimes you'll see

2:12

an enormous golden boulder that will

2:15

have rolled down in a maybe

2:17

not quite so recent landslide and

2:19

broken through some of the barriers

2:21

so you're really aware of how

2:23

fragile this environment is and how

2:26

fragile you are in that environment,

2:28

how much the weather, the temperament,

2:30

the climate, everything will affect your

2:32

experience of being in this majestic

2:34

and beautiful place. Yeah, I

2:37

mean, Kerry, you really hit the

2:39

nail on the head hit because

2:41

climate change is causing this beautiful

2:43

place to change. Glaciers are melting

2:45

faster than before and that's incredibly

2:47

dangerous for people like you who

2:49

are travelling through, but also the

2:51

people who live there downstream of

2:53

these glaciers who are at risk

2:55

of flash floods. Yeah,

2:58

it was a sunny day. I went

3:00

for my school. But the morning, everything

3:02

was normal. My teacher told me that

3:04

the Hachanabad Bridge has collapsed. And I

3:06

was thinking that, no, it's not possible

3:09

that our homes could be collapsed. I

3:11

was a bit confused because no one

3:13

was telling me that what's going on.

3:16

So Kamal is 18 years

3:19

old. When we meet she's

3:21

dressed in white trousers and

3:23

orange top with lace detail.

3:25

Her black hair is tied

3:27

back at the neck and

3:29

I speak to her next

3:32

to a tributary of the

3:34

Hunza River. Yeah, because she

3:36

used to live just downstream

3:38

of the Hassenabad bridge, but

3:40

back in May 2022, a

3:42

glacial lake burst its banks,

3:45

sending vast amounts of water

3:47

scouring the river banks. The

3:49

ground, the home, the bridge,

3:51

was disappearing beneath their feet

3:53

into the brown water below.

3:56

I was thinking about what

3:58

would happen after this. Will

4:00

anyone come to us and

4:02

would anyone save us? I,

4:04

with my colleagues, with my

4:06

siblings, we took all the

4:09

things out of the home.

4:11

We ran out of there.

4:13

Kamal's home was lost to

4:15

the floods, but she escaped

4:17

with her life. This

4:20

week on the climate question

4:22

from the BBC World Service,

4:24

we're asking how can Pakistanis

4:26

survive these melting glaciers? I'm

4:28

your guide, Grea Jackson. The

4:37

brilliant Kerry dailies has been reporting

4:40

on this story for the BBC.

4:42

Kerry can you just give us

4:44

a sense of the journey there

4:47

because I imagine it must have

4:49

been a very long one. It's

4:51

an incredible journey and even from

4:54

the moment when you're offline you

4:56

will see out the window these

4:58

snow-topped. incredible mountains and from the

5:01

moment you land you're surrounded by

5:03

them you drive through these peaks

5:06

and then you suddenly reach the

5:08

Hunza Valley which is green and

5:10

full of agricultural land and orchids

5:13

and it's an incredibly special and

5:15

very beautiful place to visit. Yeah,

5:17

I mean I saw the photos

5:20

that you gathered whilst you were

5:22

there and it is striking how

5:24

green this section is and then

5:27

all around it's sort of brown

5:29

dust isn't it? And this place

5:31

is in the foothill of Himalayan

5:34

glaciers. I mean how much water

5:36

is locked up there in that

5:39

ice in the glaciers? So in

5:41

the wider area, an area that

5:43

is often referred to as the

5:46

third pole, and that is because

5:48

there is more ice there than

5:50

anywhere else on earth apart from

5:53

the north and south poles, in

5:55

this particular area there are about

5:57

7,000 or so glassiers that we

6:00

were told, and these glassiers change

6:02

in size that happens to some

6:04

degree normally every year during the

6:07

seasons. of course what we have

6:09

seen and what we were hearing

6:12

about during the course of our

6:14

trip was how those glaciers have

6:16

changed so dramatically in such a

6:19

relatively short space of time. How

6:21

dramatically? So the glacial themselves are

6:23

melting. That means as a result

6:26

that sometimes they surge forwards, sometimes

6:28

they retreat. And I was speaking

6:30

to someone called Subar Ahmed, who

6:33

was from the Disaster Management Authority

6:35

in this particular part of Pakistan,

6:37

near the Afghan border, who was

6:40

talking about the fact that some

6:42

of these glaciers have moved by

6:45

several kilometers. The glaciers are melting

6:47

very rapidly, very rapidly. Most of

6:49

the glaciers are deteriorating and few

6:52

glaciers have been deteriorated almost 4

6:54

kilometers. Now we are receiving torrential

6:56

rains and unpredictable rains. Secondly, the

6:59

flash floods have been increased, the

7:01

debris flows and the landslides. So

7:05

what happened to that 18-year-old Kamal?

7:07

That wasn't an isolated incident. This

7:09

has been happening lots and lots.

7:12

Yes, and in fact, the Glacial

7:14

Lake outburst flood, or Glough, as

7:16

they're often referred to, that she

7:18

was talking about, that had caused

7:21

so much destruction. There had actually

7:23

been two other of those Glough

7:25

events in the course of the

7:28

last five years from that one

7:30

glassier. The UN development program, the

7:32

UNDP, did a report in 2022

7:34

and said that these gloves had

7:37

drastically increased. They'd actually said that

7:39

there were 64 of them in

7:41

Gilgit-Baltistan in just that year and

7:44

all between June and August. Gosh,

7:46

I mean, if they're as big

7:48

as the ones that Kamal was

7:51

describing, that must be absolutely devastating.

7:56

One thing I'm not clear

7:58

on their carriers, what exactly

8:00

is a... outburst and how

8:02

does climate change influence them?

8:06

So very roughly it's when water

8:09

from a glacier melts and forms

8:11

a lake. Now in this particular

8:13

case what had happened was that

8:15

the glacier had surged forward as

8:17

a result water started forming in

8:20

an area that hadn't happened before

8:22

and then when the water became

8:24

so heavy it burst through and

8:26

then came in one big gush

8:28

all the way through the valley.

8:33

And because of the force of

8:35

this build-up, it has the power

8:37

and the ability to pick up

8:40

rocks and stones, debris, homes, bridges,

8:42

anything that's in its path, and

8:44

all of that then comes thundering

8:47

down through the valley and causes

8:49

such a high level of destruction.

8:51

When I spoke to Zubair, he

8:54

told me about the sort of

8:56

impact that these gloths have. There

8:59

is a big shift in

9:01

that these floods badly damage

9:04

our agricultural lands as well.

9:06

These facial lake outburst floods

9:08

are potential threat to the

9:10

lives of the people because

9:12

80% of the population is

9:14

dependent on these glaciers and

9:16

they are settled on the

9:18

watersheds of these glaciers. Right,

9:22

well water is life as they

9:24

say, you know you can't really

9:26

underline how important this water is.

9:29

Yes, so many people are living

9:31

alongside the tribute trees, the rivers

9:33

that are getting their water from

9:35

these glaciers and that's vitally important

9:38

not just for people who are

9:40

reliant on agriculture but everybody and

9:42

it also means that it's difficult

9:44

to try to relocate people to

9:47

other places as well because of

9:49

course that water is providing people's

9:51

life but it also means that

9:54

they are vulnerable as well. I

9:56

mean obviously this is really problematic

9:58

for people who live right on

10:00

the banks and nearby what about

10:03

further downstream? Because these tributies go

10:05

on to feed massive rivers, don't

10:07

they? And lots more people are

10:09

dependent on those. Yes, that is

10:12

the really big question about how

10:14

this is going to impact. So,

10:16

Pakistan, for example, is a water-stressed

10:18

country. And so it's dependent on

10:21

all of these major rivers, many

10:23

of which do come from the

10:25

glaciers. And it's also not even

10:27

just a problem. For Pakistan, there

10:30

are other countries too that rely

10:32

on rivers that originate in this

10:34

area that's referred to as the

10:37

third pole. So for example, India

10:39

and China. And in general, if

10:41

Glassie has become unpredictable, the argument

10:43

goes, so could the water supply.

10:46

Okay, well, I want to come

10:48

back to Kamal, who had to

10:50

abandon her home to the floodwaters

10:52

and move into a shelter. For

10:55

two to three months we stayed

10:57

in shelters and after one year

10:59

we built our new home and

11:01

now we are living there. Many

11:04

of the people or many of

11:06

our neighbors are not living here

11:08

because they went to different places

11:11

and the whole system has collapsed.

11:15

I mean I can't begin to

11:17

imagine what Kamal must be feeling

11:19

at the very least a complete

11:21

loss of security really that she's

11:23

lost her home and where she

11:25

grew up. And I think that

11:27

was what was really clear when

11:30

I was speaking to her was

11:32

that You could see how upsetting

11:34

it is. She doesn't live far

11:36

away now, but she can go

11:38

and visit that spot. And every

11:40

time she does, she says that

11:42

she just feels this sense of

11:44

loss because this is where all

11:46

her childhood memories were. And now

11:48

it's this barren cliff edge because

11:50

the earth has been so ripped

11:52

away. And I think it's just

11:54

destroyed this sense that the place

11:56

that she lives is something that

11:58

she can rely on. It's fearful

12:00

it's dangerous to live here. there

12:02

is no guarantee that when the

12:04

flood will come and ruin our

12:06

places and there are possibilities that

12:08

some day flood will ruin this

12:10

place. But despite that fear that

12:12

the floods may well come again,

12:14

she and her family, they stay.

12:16

Yes, I mean this is the

12:19

place that she's always lived, that

12:21

her family have always lived and

12:23

it's not an uncommon feeling. A

12:25

lot of people feel like they

12:27

don't have anywhere else. I

12:31

didn't know.

12:35

a few houses down from

12:38

Comall. I met a man

12:40

called Salton Alley who is

12:42

74 years old. He was

12:45

dressed in a light blue

12:47

shirt and trousers. He's a

12:50

grandfather and his granddaughters were

12:52

playing in the garden as

12:54

we were talking. But yes,

12:57

he was very adamant that

12:59

he didn't really feel like

13:02

he had a choice but

13:04

to stay there despite the

13:06

events that had happened in

13:09

May of 2022. It was

13:11

so horrific, the flood was

13:13

carrying rocks the size of

13:16

our houses. Those rocks struck

13:18

the ground near our homes,

13:21

creating tremors that felt like

13:23

an earthquake. Cracks appeared in

13:25

all the houses, affecting 15

13:28

families. It still feels crazy

13:30

when I remember the fear

13:33

I experienced that day. It

13:35

was unimaginable. My house was

13:37

completely cracked. I spent two

13:40

million rupees to renovate and

13:42

fix it. Come inside and

13:45

see. So Sultan did

13:47

take us around his house

13:49

and he has repaired it,

13:51

but you can still see

13:53

and you can hear when

13:55

you talk to him about

13:57

how much this worry weighs

13:59

on him and what he

14:01

would do if something like

14:03

this would happen. It's still

14:05

very dangerous. There is a

14:07

risk that floods can come

14:09

at any time, but moving

14:11

somewhere else isn't possible. We

14:13

have no other options for

14:15

our family. You can see

14:17

my granddaughter, they'll face many

14:19

difficulties if they continue living

14:21

here. They are very worried

14:23

because of this sense of

14:25

helplessness, constantly thinking about where

14:27

will we live. What

14:29

kind of life is this? How

14:32

will we continue living like this?

14:34

They ask me to get a

14:36

safe shelter. How can we live

14:39

here? I don't have the resources.

14:41

The children are very worried. It's

14:43

not normal. As I approach the

14:45

end of my life, I feel

14:48

helpless. So

14:55

what can people like Kamal and

14:57

Sultan do? In a moment we'll

14:59

find out on the climate question

15:01

from the BBC World Service. Hello,

15:06

Simon Jack here from Good Bad

15:08

billionaire, the podcast and the BBC

15:11

World Service, exploring the minds, the

15:13

motives and the money of some

15:15

of the world's richest individuals. Did

15:18

you know there's an easy way

15:20

to get new episodes automatically? Whether

15:22

it's good bad billionaire or any

15:24

of your other favourite BBC World

15:27

Service podcasts, find the show on

15:29

your podcast app and then just

15:31

click follow or subscribe. And if

15:34

you switch on notifications, you'll get

15:36

a reminder too. It's that easy.

15:38

Follow or subscribe and never miss

15:40

an episode. I'm Greg Jackson and

15:43

with me is Caroline Davies, the

15:45

Pakistan correspondent from BBC News and

15:47

she's been telling us all about

15:50

a story she's been working on

15:52

in the Himalayas. Hello. Hi, so

15:54

let's talk about solutions here to

15:57

the melting glaciers and the people

15:59

who are... by them. The

16:01

obvious solution seems to be moved

16:03

the entire village and we've seen

16:05

this kind of effort before on

16:07

the climate question in Malawi, but

16:10

it's really tricky for lots of

16:12

different reasons. Yes, and this is

16:14

happening in certain areas of Gilgit-Baltistan

16:16

too. There's a village called Bardswot.

16:18

which is not that far away,

16:20

and it's been flooded multiple times,

16:22

now considered to be impossible to

16:24

live in this village, and as

16:26

a result, people are being relocated

16:28

deeper into the valley, but of

16:31

course, it's very expensive, it's time-consuming,

16:33

and people don't always want to

16:35

go there. Zubair, from the disaster

16:37

management authority, also told me a

16:39

bit about some of the other

16:41

reasons why it's difficult. This

16:44

is another issue that we

16:46

have very limited lent, very

16:48

limited resources. It's almost impossible

16:50

to displace the people. because

16:52

we don't have these common

16:55

lands to shift the people

16:57

and secondly where we will

16:59

shift them. We have a

17:01

lot of barren lands but

17:03

these barren lands cannot be

17:06

used as permanent settlements because

17:08

of lacking of the resources.

17:10

We don't have proper water

17:12

resources and the other civic

17:14

facilities. And thirdly most of

17:17

the people who are living

17:19

in their villages They do

17:21

not want to leave their

17:23

own ancestral lands and their

17:25

properties. So mostly we shift

17:28

them in their own lands,

17:30

their own properties. We cannot

17:32

shift them to the other

17:34

places. Resettlement is rather impossible

17:37

in the late months. Right,

17:40

so it's not just about the

17:43

money here, there isn't this suitable

17:45

land, you know, infrastructure is what

17:47

he's describing, right? Schools, roads, access

17:49

to water, that's also safe from

17:51

these floods. But the other thing

17:53

that's quite striking to me that

17:55

reminds me of people I've spoken

17:58

to you before about this is

18:00

that know people don't want to

18:02

leave their memories. Yes and added

18:04

to that as well I would

18:06

also say that there is a

18:08

worry that if you move from

18:10

one place to another what is

18:13

the guarantee that the next place

18:15

is going to be safe as

18:17

well. People just really have this

18:19

sense of insecurity about the areas

18:21

that they live in. Right, okay,

18:23

so what can be done then?

18:25

Well, it is expensive. So the

18:28

World Bank has said in 2022

18:30

that Pakistan needs $348 billion from

18:32

2023 to 2030 to respond to

18:34

its climate and development challenges, and

18:36

that is an enormous amount of

18:38

money, and even the World Bank

18:40

says that could still be an

18:43

underestimate. Pakistan in general is one

18:45

of the countries that is the

18:47

most vulnerable to climate change. It's

18:49

only responsible for less than 1%

18:51

of global greenhouse gas emissions. So

18:53

the concern we heard quite a

18:55

lot were people feeling very frustrated

18:58

that they don't feel that they

19:00

can make a meaningful difference when

19:02

it comes to reducing the cause

19:04

of climate change. There are things

19:06

that people can do, maybe they

19:08

can adapt, they can put some

19:10

barricades in the way, and that

19:13

was some work that was being

19:15

done to try to limit the

19:17

impact of some of these potential

19:19

floods or landslides, but there's also

19:21

a real frustration there that it

19:23

feels like this is something that

19:25

they can't change that is part

19:28

of a bigger system, and I

19:30

spoke to Zubara about it. We

19:32

are not contributing to the climate

19:34

change. So we cannot stop these

19:36

events, because this is a global

19:38

issue. What we do is we

19:40

can just get prepared our people

19:42

to face such events. For that,

19:45

we are doing on behalf of

19:47

government of Guinea, the sun. I

19:49

would say that we are trying

19:51

to sensitize the people. We are,

19:53

have some physical interventions as well,

19:55

like we make these river embankments

19:57

to protect the communities, their lands.

20:00

these early warning systems in

20:02

most vulnerable areas. How

20:05

do these early warning systems work,

20:08

Kerry? So I went to an

20:10

area that's quite close by in

20:12

the village of Pasu, about an

20:14

hour away from Hasanabad, and there

20:16

they're keeping a very close eye

20:18

on the Pasu classier, they're monitoring

20:20

it, they're keeping an eye on

20:22

the water levels, but as well

20:24

they are training up the village

20:26

to have evacuation drills and to

20:28

also provide first aid and to

20:30

do things like river crossings, being

20:33

able to rescue people from high

20:35

levels and sort of repel them

20:37

down there. cliff edges and that's

20:39

because people who live there know

20:41

that if something were to happen

20:43

it could take days for outside

20:45

help to come in so they

20:47

are going to be the first

20:49

responders. Okay let's go! Shabash! Come

20:51

on! Slowly, okay! Don't go on

20:53

to jam. Be careful. You know

20:55

you're talking about repelling over cliff

20:58

faces and lots of mountaineering I

21:00

mean it sounds pretty dangerous especially

21:02

if they can't access medical help

21:04

very easily. Yes I mean people

21:06

are getting trained from really quite

21:08

early on I spoke to one

21:10

21 year old who'd already been

21:12

doing it for years and her

21:14

father did it and This is

21:16

something that a lot of the

21:18

volunteers have done for decades before.

21:21

We spoke to a few people

21:23

who've been part of those sort

21:25

of volunteering efforts to rescue people

21:27

who get stuck up the mountains.

21:29

The problem is, of course, is

21:31

that people are seeing so many

21:33

more of these events, so much

21:35

more unpredictability, that a lot of

21:37

them feel this real sense of

21:39

duty to their community to get

21:41

trained to have these skill sets

21:43

so that if something happens, they're

21:46

there to be able to be

21:48

able to help. One of the

21:50

volunteers that I spoke to is

21:52

called Shazia. She is 18 years

21:54

old, very enthusiastic with curly hair

21:56

and she was so proud of

21:58

the first aid work that she

22:00

was doing and being part this

22:02

community effort. So we are giving

22:04

the first aid and we are

22:06

having training. The disaster can happen

22:08

in any form, accident or blood

22:11

or anything. And she

22:13

has also told me that

22:15

she is ready to be

22:17

able to rescue many people,

22:19

even though she's seen so

22:21

many changes in her area

22:23

and does find it scary,

22:25

she is very determined that

22:27

she will stay here and

22:29

she will help her community.

22:31

I have seen floods, I

22:33

have seen soil erosion, I

22:35

have seen how people have

22:38

lost their precious lands and

22:40

everything. So it's so sad

22:42

that global warming has that

22:44

much effect on us, and

22:46

especially in the northern area.

22:48

This is my community, and

22:50

I believe that we have

22:52

to pay back to our

22:54

community. And this is what

22:56

we have done since childhood.

23:05

How many villages have a similar

23:07

system to Pazu? So, Zubair told

23:09

me that they have wanted to

23:11

put these sorts of systems in

23:14

about 100 of the glaciers and

23:16

the valleys around the area, and

23:18

that they had presented this initial

23:20

list, and bear in mind, as

23:23

I say, there are so many

23:25

of these glasses thousands. But then

23:27

because of limited resources, at that

23:29

particular point, they were only able

23:31

to introduce 16. So that gives

23:34

you an idea of how big

23:36

a scope and an issue this

23:38

is. Yeah, and I was thinking

23:40

back to that figure you gave

23:43

us from the World Bank, was

23:45

it 300 and something billion? Because,

23:47

you know, ultimately these things do

23:49

need financing and often an argument

23:51

made is that finance should come

23:54

from countries who are historically responsible

23:56

for climate change. Now, at the

23:58

most recent climate conference, COP29 in

24:00

Azerbaijan, was 300 billion US dollars

24:03

tabled a year from 2035, but

24:05

that is supposed to be for

24:07

the whole world, not just for

24:09

Pakistan, right? And I wonder, what

24:11

was the response from Islamabad? So

24:14

Pakistan has been very vocal about

24:16

exactly this issue and about the

24:18

need for money, and Pakistan was

24:20

present at COP29. They haven't made

24:23

an official. statement of response to

24:25

that money that has been pledged,

24:27

but Prime Minister Shaba' Sharif did

24:29

speak and said that it can't

24:31

become the norm for debt to

24:34

cover the cost of climate resilience

24:36

in places like Pakistan, but others

24:38

also all around the world that

24:40

are facing these issues. For

24:47

Kamal and Sultan, the place

24:49

they grew up is no

24:51

longer the same and their

24:54

future there is somewhat uncertain.

24:56

Now I could see the

24:58

mountains, the glory and everything

25:01

is here. I like the

25:03

green. But now since flood

25:06

came and it has collapsed

25:08

everything, it is looking like

25:10

a barren place. There were

25:13

no such problems when I

25:15

was young. It was very

25:17

peaceful. I'm 74 now. I

25:20

worry about the future. It

25:22

seemed bleak. And there'll be

25:25

many difficulties ahead. And there's

25:27

nothing we can do about

25:29

it. I can't blame anyone.

25:32

It's just our fate. That's

25:36

quite a striking statement to me

25:39

Carrie. It's our fate and we

25:41

can't blame anyone. Did it strike

25:43

you at the time? Yes I

25:45

think a lot of people feel

25:47

so out of control of this

25:50

situation that they just feel like

25:52

there's not very much they can

25:54

do and so there's a sort

25:56

of strange form of acceptance that

25:59

if something happens something will do.

26:01

and there's not very much that

26:03

they can do to step in.

26:05

I mean when you set out

26:07

to tell this story what drew

26:10

you to it? You know what

26:12

did you want listeners to take

26:14

away from everything that you'd gathered?

26:16

I think what really struck me

26:19

on this story was how little

26:21

these particular individuals are contributing to

26:23

the problems. These are people who

26:25

live in small rural communities who

26:27

spent most of their lives there.

26:30

and who are experiencing so much

26:32

change in the course of their

26:34

lifetime. I think sometimes we view

26:36

climate changes, these sort of incremental

26:39

changes, it can sound nebulous of

26:41

a degree or two there, and

26:43

then you see somewhere like Gilgit-Baltistan,

26:45

and you speak to people who

26:47

are there who have seen so

26:50

much change before their eyes. who,

26:52

as you can hear from Sultan,

26:54

who's in his 70s, who has

26:56

experienced these sort of transitions, and

26:59

it makes you realize how quickly

27:01

the world can change around you.

27:03

But I think that the main

27:05

impact that I felt very strongly

27:08

speaking to Kamal and Sultan, was

27:10

just this underlying fear of what

27:12

could happen, of how quickly their

27:14

lives had been turned upside down,

27:16

and an underlying concern that that

27:19

could happen again in the future.

27:21

Caroline Davies, thank you so much

27:23

for sharing your story with us

27:25

on the climate question. I really

27:28

appreciate it. Thank you very much

27:30

for having me. If

27:35

you'd like to send us your

27:37

climate questions, please do you can

27:39

watch up us, the numbers plus

27:41

four four, eight thousand, three, two,

27:43

one, or you can email us.

27:45

It's the climate question at bbc.com.

27:47

Both are on the bbc website

27:49

and podcast feed if you just

27:51

want to cut and paste them.

27:53

And also thank you to our

27:55

production team. They were Osman Igbo,

27:57

Ellie House, Osman Zahid, Carmel. Fakir

27:59

Manir, Simon Watts, Rod Farker and

28:01

Tom Brignall. I'm Grey Jackson and

28:03

and I'll see

28:05

you next time.

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