0:00

Welcome to Live from the

0:02

Table, the official podcast for

0:04

the world-famous comedy cellar. I'm

0:06

Pariel, the producer of the show.

0:08

I'm here with Noam Dorman, the

0:10

owner of the comedy cellar. and

0:13

we have a very special guest

0:15

recurring guest Nick Gillespie editor at

0:17

large at Reason the libertarian magazine

0:19

of free minds and free markets

0:22

I like being recurring it's I

0:24

feel like herpes we well we like

0:26

you a little bit more than we

0:28

like herpes well you know we

0:31

all have herpes right this is

0:33

dormant like if you had chicken

0:35

pox or something like the herpes

0:38

virus and unprotected sex of course

0:40

never never and he is

0:42

also the host of the

0:44

reason interview with Nick Gillespie.

0:46

Thank you. Welcome to our show.

0:48

I will if I can just start

0:51

off out of the gate plugging

0:53

my own show I just released

0:55

a great episode. It comes out

0:57

on Wednesday, so whenever this comes

0:59

out, but with the novelist Lee

1:02

Stein and Julius Toronto talking about

1:04

whether or not we can do

1:06

satire anymore in America, because not

1:08

because we're not allowed to, but

1:11

because things are just so fucking

1:13

crazy. You know, like if... Truth

1:15

is stranger than satire. Yeah, and

1:18

there's a famous essay by Philip

1:20

Roth in commentary in 1961, where

1:22

he's like, you know... You know, he was

1:24

talking about like Charles Van Doren, you know,

1:26

the Columbia professor who cheated on the Game

1:28

Show 21. That got made into the movie

1:31

quiz show and stuff and he's like, you

1:33

know, you just can't keep up with this

1:35

kind of crazy reality. And it's like, Philip

1:37

Roth, you had no idea what America was

1:39

going to look like, you know, 60 years

1:41

later. Parial is blushing because she almost

1:44

slept with Philip Roth. Oh really? What

1:46

happened? It's a long story. You can read

1:48

about it. I don't want to take up

1:50

the episode, but it's a chapter in

1:52

my last book. Oh, really? Okay, that's

1:54

great. You know, the woman who wrote

1:56

Asymmetry got like a National Book Award

1:58

out of sleeping with film. Well, I

2:00

was trying to get a national book

2:03

award by sleeping with him, but

2:05

it didn't quite work out that

2:07

way. How could you not? It's

2:09

when he found out you were

2:11

Jewish, he's like, okay, now? Yeah,

2:13

he had no idea. She was

2:15

Jewish. He was pounding liver. I

2:17

think it was actually when she

2:19

started talking. That's not true. Some

2:21

people actually enjoy my company to talk

2:24

to me. So when you sat down,

2:26

you told me we were just

2:28

like chatting about the local New York

2:30

elections. Yeah. Anthony Wiener is running

2:33

to be my local city council. It's

2:35

not yours, isn't it, isn't it, at

2:37

the East Village or... The district runs

2:40

all the way here. Yeah, I was

2:42

on Mike Pesca's podcast with him

2:44

and I hate to sound like we're

2:46

in the old Tonight Show or something,

2:49

some crappy Hollywood circle jerk, but... Yeah,

2:51

Wiener, you know what, I think Wiener

2:53

is pretty sociopathic, which is not necessarily

2:55

bad in a politician, but when I

2:57

was on like the first thing he

3:00

did out of the gate is like

3:02

you knucklelehead, like he was, you know,

3:04

you know, nagging me, nagging me, and...

3:06

Anthony Wiener is a kind of pure

3:09

gain of function version of a New

3:11

Yorker where even if you agree with

3:13

him he just has to attack

3:15

you and you know he's a

3:17

function for he's a horrible You

3:19

know it has a horrible personal

3:21

matter a manner and manner and

3:24

I think he's probably won his

3:26

last election Did you think that before

3:28

you met him in person? You know

3:30

what I had followed him on TV

3:32

back when he was a congressman and

3:34

you know all the bright-bart stuff and

3:36

all of that stuff was coming out

3:38

and I had always he had always

3:40

struck me on Gab shows and I

3:42

think he would go on Fox as

3:44

well as like CNN or MSMBC and

3:47

what I liked about him is that

3:49

he was willing to argue with people

3:51

which is good you know and and

3:53

he has a deafen point of view

3:55

and he's not He's not a super

3:57

identity politics progressive. No, he's not which

3:59

is good but he is a noxious

4:01

kind of human being i think and

4:03

it he raises a lot of interesting

4:06

questions in in the context of the

4:08

show we were talking he brought up

4:10

the fact that in the new york

4:13

mayor's race you know there's at least

4:15

three of the candidates uh... scot stringer

4:17

eric Adams and uh... androquimo all have

4:19

you know either have uh... sexual assault

4:22

charges or impropriety charges against them that

4:24

were either you know taking seriously or

4:26

not and he pointed out which is

4:29

a kind of clever move you know

4:31

that he he paid his time literally

4:33

you know he did hard time by

4:35

the way so so just you know

4:38

i i i've met Anthony Wiener i

4:40

didn't know him until i don't six

4:42

months ago he when you picked up

4:45

your daughter's cell phone no no no

4:47

no no no no no no no

4:49

no no no no no when he

4:51

contacted me because he's running for office

4:54

here and I and I met with

4:56

him you know I mean this kind

4:58

of a pugnacious personality that you that

5:01

you're describing. I enjoyed that, you know,

5:03

I liked him in post somewhere after

5:05

this event. He's like the burp that

5:07

you have after eating a dishwater dog

5:10

on the sidewalk. Oh my God, you're

5:12

harsh. No, well, I mean, that's just

5:14

who he is and he doesn't hold

5:17

up. You know what's interesting and because

5:19

I would love to talk about the

5:21

New York City Mayor's race a little

5:23

bit, but in New York. their you

5:26

know ideology is less should be less

5:28

important but the more local the race

5:30

right and one of the things that

5:33

was that's frustrating about somebody like weener

5:35

who recognizes that the democrats you know

5:37

have fallen out of favor and that

5:39

that may only be for a couple

5:42

more months really until the midterms and

5:44

you know the republicans nationally are doing

5:46

everything they can to lose whatever advantages

5:49

they have uh... but you know when

5:51

you'll be like yeah we have to

5:53

fix things we have to change things

5:55

and then it's like okay well you

5:58

know what should we do about social

6:00

security absolutely nothing medicare nothing you know

6:02

everything is we shouldn't do anything other

6:05

than tax rich people more and give

6:07

more stuff to more people and to

6:09

me that is unbelievably frustrating to be

6:11

in those conversations where we went from

6:14

in 2019 at the federal level spending

6:16

4.4 trillion dollars to now we're going

6:18

to spend 7.2 trillion dollars this year

6:21

under a conservative Republican who's doging the

6:23

government and stuff like that and there's

6:25

just something fucked up if you can't

6:27

figure out How do you get back

6:30

close, if not below, $4.4 trillion, which

6:32

at the time was a record amount

6:34

of money that was being spent? So

6:37

let me just say, you know, it's

6:39

not my place to tell a guest

6:41

what they, you know, shouldn't say about

6:44

even people that I have friendships with.

6:46

I'm not a good friend of Anthony

6:48

Wiener, but we know each other and,

6:50

you know, the things that he got

6:53

in trouble for are quite serious. And

6:55

I told him that on the show

6:57

here. You know, I've had to process

7:00

it, but he did his time, he

7:02

did hard time, not minimum security time,

7:04

he did two years, and then afterwards

7:06

worked like a job that was only

7:09

for like ex-cons. And he's been very

7:11

forthright about it, and I do, one

7:13

part of me says, yes, people have

7:16

done their time, that should be the

7:18

end of it. Another part of me

7:20

can't be dishonest, and we know that

7:22

certain crimes which are based on kind

7:25

of a personal pathologies are not just,

7:27

you know. They can recur. But he

7:29

said he goes for regular counseling and

7:32

he calls himself an addict and you

7:34

know, to the extent that you, however

7:36

you'd want somebody like him to behave,

7:38

I think he's doing that. And so

7:41

I, um. I agree with that. And

7:43

now, you know, he spoke on this

7:45

show about, you know, being in recovery.

7:48

and whatnot and he seems to take

7:50

it seriously does you know and by

7:52

the way there you know one thing

7:54

you were talking about like you know

7:57

we we assume that sex crimes are

7:59

categorically different than other crimes there is

8:01

actually very little criminal logical sociological data

8:04

that actually backs that up. It's considered

8:06

true, but people like Thomas Saz, the

8:08

great psychiatrist, who was a critic of

8:10

psychiatry, and the medicalization of everyday life,

8:13

he was a long time contributing editor

8:15

to reason, wrote a lot about that

8:17

as did others. And it turns out

8:20

that that's actually not true, which should

8:22

be a relief to people. And you

8:24

know, none of this means you don't

8:26

prosecute sex crimes, you know, rapidly and

8:29

effectively and all of that. You know,

8:31

if he's in, if he's taking, you

8:33

know, recovery seriously and all of that,

8:36

there's no reason to worry about him

8:38

with that. I mean, the harder questions

8:40

come, like, what do you do in

8:42

New York City? What are, you know,

8:45

what are the pressing issues and how

8:47

do you fix them? Because we have

8:49

an insane amount of, you know, of

8:52

political gridlock in the, in the, in

8:54

the, lived and worked in and then

8:56

moved away from and came back to

8:58

and it's frustrating. And when you look

9:01

at the mayor's race, you know, it's

9:03

just kind of like, holy cow, this

9:05

is, you know, this is not good.

9:08

So Wiener, you know, comes across in

9:10

this atmosphere, he comes across as a

9:12

right of center New York candidate. And,

9:14

you know, as a business owner, I

9:17

want to support the most right wing

9:19

local candidate. That there is when you

9:21

when you say right wing you mean

9:24

somebody who's pro business or somebody's pro

9:26

business Yeah, not the most right wing

9:28

Well, not maybe not most right right

9:30

wing on a national election or something

9:33

in terms of what's what's realistic in

9:35

a New York City election. Yeah to

9:37

be in the running, he is the

9:40

most right-wing guy we're going to get.

9:42

Is he going to win? Does he?

9:44

I don't think there's any really credible

9:46

polling, but he's out there apparently every

9:49

day shaking hands, whatever it is. People

9:51

are forgiving. I've spoken to people and

9:53

I spoke to like Tiano over here

9:56

and just people waitresses work for me

9:58

and stuff like that and they were

10:00

like, yeah, I could vote for a

10:03

guy. even though they knew what happened,

10:05

which was interesting to me. And so

10:07

maybe he will, with name recognition in

10:09

a local election, is very, very important.

10:12

And he is a winning. People like

10:14

him. You know, they do. Yeah, I'm

10:16

not sure of that. You know, you

10:19

know, why? Because that kind of in

10:21

your face, like, you know, right of

10:23

the box, he's like, you know, somebody's

10:25

electricating him and he's in your face.

10:28

I don't know if people like that.

10:30

I mean, I don't like it particularly

10:32

and I think I have a thicker

10:35

skin than a lot of people. But,

10:37

you know, ultimately what it comes down

10:39

to is like... Okay, what are you

10:41

going to do about the rats and

10:44

the garbage and how are you going

10:46

to make it easier for more? This

10:48

gets complicated very quickly, especially in a

10:51

place that's like the, you know, the

10:53

West, the, you know, Greenwich Village or

10:55

East Village or whatever, when you say,

10:57

how do we make it easier for

11:00

people to live here? How do we

11:02

make rents cheaper? And then people are

11:04

like pissed off because I don't want

11:07

anybody else living here. You know, it's,

11:09

I just came back from a trip.

11:11

to Austin, Texas, where Reason Magazine, you

11:13

know, where I work, had an annual

11:16

donor event. We have them in different

11:18

cities every year, and this time it

11:20

was in Austin. And before that was

11:23

a couple of colleagues, we were doing

11:25

a documentary about how Austin has had

11:27

massive growth, you know, really over the

11:29

past 50 years, but since COVID, like

11:32

a lot of people when the lockdown

11:34

started, they moved to Austin. Rents went

11:36

up and then Miracle of Miracles, the

11:39

city council and Texas at the state

11:41

level and there's county, you know, government,

11:43

they all were like, okay, we're going

11:45

to make it easier for developers to

11:48

build housing. And rents now are lower

11:50

than they were at, you know, right

11:52

after COVID when people started pouring into

11:55

the city. And it was amazing, like

11:57

you can imagine this, it's like New

11:59

Yorkers. when you go to people in

12:01

a city and you're saying like you

12:04

know the you know what's the secret

12:06

here runs grown down and it's like

12:08

well you know Nick it's like this

12:11

and this is left wingers and right

12:13

wingers and libertarians and you know left-wing

12:15

anarchists you know and homeless people you

12:17

know everybody there seems to be on

12:20

amphetamines the homeless people are really you

12:22

know in New York yeah they're kind

12:24

of low-key and fentanyl and in Texas

12:27

they are just really you know on

12:29

a lot of uppers but every one

12:31

of them just said Nick you know

12:33

here's you know this sit down because

12:36

this is kind of complicated but it's

12:38

like if more if there's more demand

12:40

for housing and then you build more

12:43

housing the prices go down and i

12:45

was like wow that it is amazing

12:47

that like no other city seriously like

12:49

no other big city has thought of

12:52

that so what do you what do

12:54

you make of this whole new Ezra

12:56

Klein movement to that it's like it's

12:59

like they discovered yeah the most they

13:01

elementary rules yeah well you're right it

13:03

is you know part of me is

13:06

like you know i love this stuff

13:08

and I loved it, you know, even

13:10

more when I read it in Reason

13:12

50 years ago or 25 years ago

13:15

or 20 years ago, but more, you

13:17

know, just, you know, without any reservations

13:19

or anything, I think it is great

13:22

to see people who identify as progressive,

13:24

saying, you know, that, you know, what

13:26

we're talking about here constantly are problems

13:28

in supply. rather than demand. And to

13:31

say, instead of being like, oh, well,

13:33

you know what we got to do

13:35

is like we have to make it

13:38

so people, you know, people don't want

13:40

as much health care, people don't want

13:42

as much housing, people don't want as

13:44

much education, because it's too expensive, and

13:47

instead of focusing on those old things

13:49

and trying to distribute things through the

13:51

government, you know, they're saying, okay, we

13:54

need to think about supply, and maximize

13:56

supply of everything. I think that's great.

13:58

So I like, you know, that they're

14:00

focused on this and that they're talking

14:03

about this. I'm uncomfortable. There are solutions

14:05

tend to be too top-down for me

14:07

and too technical. It's just that the

14:10

government is going to be very involved

14:12

with saying, okay, you can build this,

14:14

but not this. And, you know... you

14:16

know, these people get first crack. It's

14:19

just things like that. I mean, you,

14:21

we need to become Promesian. Again, I

14:23

think, you know, we need to be

14:26

stealing fire from the gods. And within

14:28

politics and outside of politics, like we

14:30

just need to become less governable and

14:32

let things go. I mean, in Austin.

14:35

I just said that to Corin in

14:37

the last hour. I said, you used

14:39

to be the Wild West and it

14:42

was good. Yeah. I mean, and it's,

14:44

you know, rules are there. I didn't

14:46

say for meathian, but the same way.

14:48

Okay. Now, actually, Wild West is better,

14:51

right? Like, who am I try to

14:53

impress? And, yeah, you know, it, we

14:55

need, one of the things that's fascinating

14:58

in Austin is that, you know, there's

15:00

the city of Austin, and then it's

15:02

within Travis County, and there's a bunch

15:04

of other counties around there, but in

15:07

most of these places, in unincorporated, And

15:09

so like there's a big chunk of

15:11

land and a developer can go and

15:14

as long as they get certain basic

15:16

permits and they build the infrastructure you

15:18

know the roads going in and out

15:20

and the sewers and the water and

15:23

all of that like they can do

15:25

what they want and God that's like

15:27

kind of amazing and in Texas I've

15:30

been thinking about this a lot because

15:32

I lived in Texas in the 90s.

15:34

I lived in the prison town in

15:36

Texas, Huntsville where the death chamber is.

15:39

And it was, you know, a weird...

15:41

Gary Gilmore was... No, now he was

15:43

out in Utah. He might have killed

15:46

people in Texas. He was a very

15:48

good driver. I loved those, you know,

15:50

those kind of serial killers who read

15:52

on the road because like Ted Bundy,

15:55

you know, he was in like Florida

15:57

and Washington State. It's like, you know,

15:59

you know, they really put a really

16:02

put a lot of a lot of

16:04

a lot of miles a lot of

16:06

miles on. But in Texas, unlike places

16:08

like California where I've lived in Florida

16:11

where I visited a fair amount, and

16:13

I guess Florida is a different, sorry,

16:15

or New York where I live, like

16:18

in Texas, they're like, you know what,

16:20

we got a lot of land. And

16:22

like the buildings can never reach up

16:25

to blot out the sun. So it's

16:27

like, let's just start building more. bigger,

16:29

higher, taller. And that's kind of exciting.

16:31

I mean, you know, I'm a second

16:34

generation, born in America, or third generation,

16:36

second generation, whatever that is. And like

16:38

the whole reason, you know, I kept

16:41

hearing about why people came here was

16:43

because you could build stuff that you

16:45

couldn't do in like old Europe. You

16:47

know, and in New York, I mean,

16:50

you know, the way my parents talked

16:52

about New York in the, you know,

16:54

30s, 40s, 50s, especially, you could really,

16:57

you know, take big swings and like

16:59

build stuff out and just do what

17:01

you want it. And if you couldn't

17:03

do it in New York, then you

17:06

would go west and do it. State

17:08

where it's like you can't really do

17:10

anything. I was just reading a story

17:13

today You know the Pacific Palisades fires

17:15

and the mayor Karen Bass who is

17:17

Ridiculous and Gavin Newsome You know they

17:19

both were like okay. You know what

17:22

we're going to do now that you

17:24

know this whole part of Southern California

17:26

burned down. We're going to suspend all

17:29

of the normal bullshit that we require

17:31

Since then they've only approved four permits

17:33

in Pacific Palisades for houses, and it's

17:35

like okay. Well you're done people are

17:38

going to move to Texas where in

17:40

the time, you know, they leave LA

17:42

and drive to Austin like there'll be

17:45

a complex, you know, that has like

17:47

50 apartment, you know, apartment center or

17:49

something. Yeah, I mean, they talk about

17:51

reforming things and there is part of

17:54

this, it is, you know, when Elon

17:56

Musk has that chainsaw. Yeah, yeah. I'm

17:58

not a fan at all. I know

18:01

you're not either of, and I want

18:03

to talk about how the Trump administration

18:05

has been behaving itself. Yeah. But yeah,

18:07

the chainsaw is not a bad metaphor.

18:10

It is not a bad image for

18:12

what needs to be done. Yeah, he

18:14

kind of got that from Javier Malay,

18:17

the Argentine president. Who you're a fan

18:19

of. Yeah, yeah, I like a lot

18:21

so far. I mean, I don't, you

18:23

know, I have to admit I don't

18:26

fully understand the intricacies of Argentina. politics.

18:28

You don't know I know I've been

18:30

I'm faking it all these years but

18:33

you know he came around with a

18:35

chainsaw and you know and I think

18:37

in the past people like Ram Paul

18:39

might have shot did he use a

18:42

chainsaw or like a wood chipper or

18:44

he might have shot you know like

18:46

regulations like a stack of regulations things

18:49

like that but yeah I mean part

18:51

of it is you can spend your

18:53

whole life trying to fix things in

18:55

the place you are. or you can

18:58

like light out for the territory and

19:00

build on a kind of blank landscape.

19:02

And I don't know. Do you think

19:05

that as recline and all these Democrats

19:07

and liberals who have found the new

19:09

religion, do you think that would have

19:11

happened if Trump hadn't won? Yeah, I

19:14

do in this sense that Klein and

19:16

his co-author, Derek Thompson of the Atlantic,

19:18

had been working on this. kind of

19:21

material along with somebody like Matt Iglesias

19:23

who I believe actually grew up in

19:25

the village. Yeah. But you know, they

19:27

have, you know, they've been working towards

19:30

these ideas for a while. So, you

19:32

know, that's good. And I mean, to

19:34

me, the, in a lot of ways,

19:37

I mean, I'm a hardcore libertarian reasons,

19:39

you know, where the magazine of free

19:41

minds and free markets, we like civil

19:44

liberties and economic liberties and think they're

19:46

all together, you know, part of the

19:48

same thing and so you know we

19:50

like the idea of just if you

19:53

can dream it you can do it

19:55

as long as you're not you know

19:57

objectively hurting somebody else or stealing from

20:00

them, you know, within very large parameters.

20:02

And I think it's good to see

20:04

people that identify as being either liberal

20:06

or leftist starting to come to those

20:09

conclusions. You know, the guy who is

20:11

now the president of the nation, you

20:13

know, one of the oldest magazines in

20:16

the country and a very left-wing magazine,

20:18

Baskar Sankara, he found a Jacobin, a

20:20

socialist magazine, and he's, you know, he's

20:22

an ideological character. but he even calls

20:25

himself a market socialist. So, you know,

20:27

what he wants is a society that

20:29

is fairer and more kind of egalitarian,

20:32

but even he will say, you know,

20:34

in a lot of most cases, the

20:36

way you get there is through markets

20:38

and making sure people can participate in

20:41

them. So tell our, since it's related

20:43

to this, tell our audience who doesn't

20:45

understand it, because it is complicated, why

20:48

are tariffs such a bad idea? Yeah,

20:50

I'm presuming you think they're bad. Yeah,

20:52

I do. The worst. Yeah. I don't

20:54

know if they're the worst, but no

20:57

redeeming. No redeeming. Yeah, that's that's a

20:59

great way to put it. There's really

21:01

no social or cultural or scientific redeeming

21:04

value. What is the for porn? where

21:06

it's like the the test for porn

21:08

if you know a work part has

21:10

no no it has like no artistic

21:13

or social cultural man all it feels

21:15

like sure for it's interesting yeah I

21:17

mean tariffs the thing to understand about

21:20

tariffs is that they are a tax

21:22

that is you know that is not

21:24

levied on the producer the exporter you

21:26

know the the guy in China who's

21:29

sending stuff here, it is a tax

21:31

that is levied on the importer of

21:33

that, which then ends up being passed

21:36

on to the consumer. So it raises

21:38

our prices. Now let me just stop

21:40

you there because... Does 100% of that

21:42

price get passed along or does the

21:45

guy in China lower his prices? Sometimes

21:47

it all varies, right? And it varies

21:49

on a lot of things, but it's

21:52

definitely an increase. And you know, because

21:54

somebody's got to eat that somewhere and

21:56

it might be, you know, sometimes the

21:58

guy in China will... you know we'll

22:01

come up with a better way to

22:03

produce stuff so he can you know

22:05

he's got a fatter profit margin that

22:08

the tariff eats into because it's got

22:10

to lower his price to get it

22:12

in so it it costs less in

22:14

America sometimes it's the the importer will

22:17

eat eat some of the costs But

22:19

ultimately it ends up, you know, it

22:21

ends up increasing prices and those are

22:24

mostly borne by the consumer. And you

22:26

could imagine. Okay. And then I was,

22:28

you know, I was just going to

22:30

say that it has the effect, you

22:33

know, the intended effect is that if

22:35

terrorists are high enough and people know

22:37

they're high enough and they're going to

22:40

be around for a while, then the

22:42

argument is that, well, we'll start producing

22:44

these things that we were going to

22:46

import to import. because it's cheaper. That

22:49

is not nearly often the case. And

22:51

it's also partly because tariffs, people figure

22:53

out ways to get around them, or

22:56

they substitute products and goods and things

22:58

like that. And one of the other

23:00

bad things that happens is if you're

23:03

in a protectionist marketplace. You, as a

23:05

producer, you tend not to be as

23:07

competitive because you know that the government,

23:09

you know, or that nobody can compete

23:12

with you, so you have less competition.

23:14

The, you know, the classic case of

23:16

this was the... The auto industry in

23:19

the 70s. Yeah, I was going to

23:21

say the big three or big two

23:23

and a half auto manufacturers. where there

23:25

were heavy tariffs on imported cars, you

23:28

know, both high end and low end.

23:30

And, you know, this stuff never really

23:32

affects the high end because people who

23:35

are buying high end products can pay

23:37

more if they want. But it wasn't

23:39

simply that the US auto companies were

23:41

caught by surprise when tariffs started to

23:44

decline. But it was also that they

23:46

had like baked into their production processes

23:48

and their design processes and their labor

23:51

contracts, just so much inefficiency, because they

23:53

didn't have to work that hard for

23:55

sales. Yeah, I remember my father when

23:57

he first got a Toyota, it was

24:00

a revelation to him. He was like,

24:02

I can't believe it. Like if it

24:04

was an American car, the window thing,

24:07

the render regular will be falling off

24:09

by now. when the arm rest would

24:11

be falling off and he says, look,

24:13

the door is closed properly. He couldn't

24:16

believe that you could make a car

24:18

like this. And then sure enough, the

24:20

American car has got much, much better.

24:23

Oh yeah, yeah. And also, you know,

24:25

the other thing is worth thinking about

24:27

is like, what is an American car?

24:29

Because a lot of it is, you

24:32

know, a part of it is built

24:34

overseas or in Canada or Mexico or

24:36

Mexico. But here's my question. I could

24:39

imagine. in China and America where wages

24:41

are so much lower attack everything is

24:43

just cheaper cheaper it could be profoundly

24:45

different it could be it could cost

24:48

them 30% of what it costs an

24:50

American company to think about like with

24:52

avocados in Mexico you know they're so

24:55

cheap it's cheaper to like important avocados

24:57

from Mexico and ship them to New

24:59

York than to you to grow them

25:01

in Florida or California. So wait, wait,

25:04

so it's so it's much much cheaper

25:06

in China. And then I don't really

25:08

know if China has a free market

25:11

such that there's competition between two companies

25:13

in China making that item. So then

25:15

they can raise the price, you know,

25:17

just a little bit below what the

25:20

American guy can make it. And we

25:22

have our units and all like that.

25:24

And then they make a killing. The

25:27

Chinese company makes a killing. Actually, it's

25:29

not all passed on. Some small or

25:31

some percentage is passed on to the

25:33

American consumer. But a huge part of

25:36

it is going in the pocket of

25:38

a Chinese businessman. And I think I

25:40

know the answer to this, but I'm

25:43

asking it's also, because this is how

25:45

people are trying to understand this question.

25:47

And what is wrong with us saying,

25:49

well, you know what? We're going to

25:52

take a chunk of that money. Who's

25:54

we and the American government? We're going

25:56

to get revenue from that. Yeah, and

25:59

then what are they going to do

26:01

with that revenue? I mean, so you

26:03

know if you're a consumer, I don't

26:06

I don't service the deficit. Yeah, you

26:08

know that they're increasing because they're you

26:10

know, we're spending 7.2 trillion dollars instead

26:12

of 4.4 trillion or trillion dollars or

26:15

whatever. But is there something to that?

26:17

I mean the idea is that you

26:19

will raise, you know, and I'm trying

26:22

to remember now what the estimates are

26:24

on this round of, you know, of

26:26

goods like say it's, you know, you

26:28

know, hundreds of billions of dollars a

26:31

year, that one, it may not end

26:33

up being that much. Oftentimes these things

26:35

are over, the estimates are overly generous.

26:38

Every time somebody says I'm raising a

26:40

tax or I'm cutting a tax, it's

26:42

going to, you know, they always oversell

26:44

it for whatever reason. But then, you

26:47

know, the idea that the U.S. government

26:49

knows better what to do with money

26:51

that they take from American consumers. The

26:54

idea was we're going to use tariffs

26:56

to pay for the tax cuts the

26:58

extension of the of the Trump and

27:00

Republican tax cuts that got passed in

27:03

2017 or 18 and You know that

27:05

remains to be seen because like you

27:07

just don't You there you could tariff

27:10

everything and you're not going to get

27:12

enough money to make up for the

27:14

cost of those other tax cuts and

27:16

I like tax cuts. I think we

27:19

you know, I think we we pay

27:21

too much in taxes and we spend

27:23

too much, but I also think that

27:26

we need to pay for the government

27:28

that we're actually having. And this is

27:30

one of the things that happened, you

27:32

know, really it started in its modern

27:35

form under George W. Bush who inherited

27:37

a balanced budget. And it was a

27:39

balanced budget that had been balanced by

27:42

Bill Clinton and a Republican Congress. And

27:44

then they blew out everything by just

27:46

borrowing wildly. That continued under Obama, continued

27:48

under Trump 1.0, it continued under Bush,

27:51

or Biden rather, and it's probably going

27:53

to continue under Trump, you know, in

27:55

a second term. So it's not like

27:58

we're taking any of this new revenue

28:00

and actually using it to retire. the

28:02

debt or to cut, you know, really

28:04

cut taxes in a way that is

28:07

sustainable. Have you thought about if you

28:09

were emperor and you could reshape the

28:11

budget as you wish and without causing

28:14

any more hardship than you wish to

28:16

cause, you know, whatever health care you

28:18

want to give, whatever social security you

28:20

want to do, how much smaller you

28:23

think you could make the budget? Yeah,

28:25

I mean, you know, this is me

28:27

kind of already giving up. But to

28:30

say, you know what, maybe we should

28:32

be able to go back to the

28:34

2019 level, that's before COVID, right? So,

28:36

okay, you know. And we all know.

28:39

Why not 1992 level? I don't know.

28:41

I'm going to say, yeah. I'm just

28:43

saying as an easy thing to say,

28:46

like, you know, it shouldn't be that

28:48

hard to go from, you know, back

28:50

to $4.4 trillion. That's a starting point

28:52

and then. Cutting you know or stopping

28:55

growth and have us grow if we

28:57

grow the economy, you know, whatever we're

28:59

spending as government is less For me,

29:02

the big things, and you know, the

29:04

big drivers of spending at this point,

29:06

and something like 75% of the budget,

29:08

I started writing about federal budget issues

29:11

in the early 2000s, and this is

29:13

already boring me, so I apologize. No,

29:15

for this, but it's, you know, back

29:18

then... She just doesn't understand it, that's

29:20

one. You would talk about, well, she's

29:22

thinking of it, Philip Roth, you know,

29:25

who... I want to get back to

29:27

that. But you know you would always

29:29

say something like you know the federal

29:31

government is made you know has two

29:34

parts to it It's called discretionary spending

29:36

and mandatory spending each of which takes

29:38

up about 50% of the budget. That's

29:41

like what you would say, circuit 2002.

29:43

Now, and that means mandatory spending is

29:45

stuff that doesn't have to get re-up

29:47

every year. So that's like Social Security

29:50

and Medicare. And it's index to inflation

29:52

often. Yeah, in various ways. But like

29:54

that is on autopilot. And then discretionary

29:57

spending is stuff like defense and education,

29:59

which technically has... get renewed every year

30:01

and Congress actually has to fucking do

30:03

something which they never do and they

30:06

didn't this year but you know now

30:08

it's three quarters mandatory spending and it's

30:10

you know a quarter discretionary spending so

30:13

it's like because Social Security Medicare in

30:15

particular which the old agent entitlements they

30:17

keep growing even as the amount of

30:19

money that is taxed to fund them

30:22

just doesn't keep pace so for me

30:24

that would be like the primary if

30:26

i'm emperor and you would have to

30:29

be emperor because anybody who does this

30:31

is probably gonna get voted out of

30:33

office pretty quickly but we have to

30:35

tackle that and you know no you

30:38

and i are of a certain age

30:40

where we're nearing you know the official

30:42

retirement ages and you know it's wrong

30:45

for people like us who have the

30:47

means and the money and the ability

30:49

to pay for our retirements and to

30:51

pay for our health care to make

30:54

somebody's grandkids you know younger and poorer

30:56

people pay for that on the idea

30:58

that oh when you retire you know

31:01

in 50 years it'll be there for

31:03

you because it won't be i mean

31:05

it just can't right we have too

31:07

many people retiring with too few contributors

31:10

and it's a shitty deal like so

31:12

security is you know it it's not

31:14

just that it picks the pocket of

31:17

younger workers to pay for older workers

31:19

it is a bad kind of guaranteed

31:21

retirement plan. You would be much better

31:23

off saving that money and putting it

31:26

in, you know, a mutual fund and

31:28

just letting it ride for, you know,

31:30

30 years. So Bush wanted to do

31:33

it? Kind of. He screwed that up.

31:35

It's a real shame. I mean, George

31:37

W. Bush, it's hard. to remember how

31:39

unpopular he was and kind of how

31:42

bad he was at everything other than

31:44

blundering into really shitty wars. And it's

31:46

worth remembering that because he seems kind

31:49

of like a nice guy now as

31:51

does Obama who also made a lot

31:53

of really bad mistakes where is Trump

31:55

and Biden and Hillary Clinton like they're

31:58

more villainous, right? Yeah, Bush, when he

32:00

won re-election in 2004, by really amping

32:02

up the idea that we were about

32:05

to be destroyed by, you know, Islamic

32:07

terrorism and all of that, he said,

32:09

I'm going to, you know, I have

32:11

a lot of political capital and I'm

32:14

going to use it to fix immigration

32:16

and Social Security, and he had decent

32:18

plans for the beginning of that, but

32:21

he was just not the guy to

32:23

do it. Now, what are the odds

32:25

that, you know, I'm looking at these

32:27

flat screen TVs, I remember when they

32:30

first came out? They were like $10,000,

32:32

$12,000, now they're almost a couple hundred

32:34

dollars, right? Yeah, that's probably, it's a

32:37

physio, so you could get that at

32:39

Walmart, that's probably like 200 bucks. Yeah.

32:41

So what are the odds that when

32:44

all these pressures finally come to the

32:46

breaking point that technology will so decrease

32:48

the costs of various things like health

32:50

care, maybe will... Housing will come down

32:53

because more housing that will have a

32:55

much softer landing than you would Imagine

32:57

if everything was straight line projections based

33:00

on what we yeah, yeah, no, you

33:02

know that I mean, I kind of

33:04

believe in the singularity, you know, the

33:06

idea that eventually Machines and computers will

33:09

start talking Excuse me to each other

33:11

and and you know and i'd like

33:13

a i i mean i think we

33:16

have you know the replace twenty percent

33:18

of the workforce federal workforce now with

33:20

a i by the yeah and i

33:22

mean of course you know none of

33:25

these things you you i mean you

33:27

you don't want doctors deciding like okay

33:29

I'm checking the AI and it's said

33:32

okay I'm gonna cut off this leg

33:34

you know or whatever or I'm gonna

33:36

deport these people because in auto complete

33:38

in an auto complete field it's like

33:41

the name Dorman came up like your

33:43

MS-13 obviously I see from he wears

33:45

those long sleeves to hide the tattoos

33:48

I'm MS-18 yeah it's a Jewish joke

33:50

Go ahead. And, you know, so I

33:52

don't believe in apocalypse, like, you know,

33:54

things are never as bad as a...

33:57

I remember after 9-11 and everybody was

33:59

talking about dirty bombs and it's like

34:01

somebody could walk into Times Square. I

34:04

was worried about that. You know with

34:06

the lease, as they used to call

34:08

them, and like, you know, a suitcase-sized

34:10

bomb and detonated and... And then like

34:13

when you read what people said, okay,

34:15

this is actually what would happen, you

34:17

would have to like, if you were

34:20

exposed to it, go inside, take a

34:22

shower and keep your blinds closed because

34:24

the amount of radiation that even a

34:26

dirty bomb would give off was like,

34:29

you know, it's like, I mean, it

34:31

was like. God, this is kind of

34:33

amazing. And when you look at this

34:36

century, we've had so many terrible things

34:38

thrown at us, you know, including, you

34:40

know, the COVID and the financial crisis

34:42

at 9-11. And it's like we're doing

34:45

pretty well, actually, in a lot of

34:47

ways. So I don't believe in Apocalypse,

34:49

but it is true. that the you

34:52

know the government is a primary cause

34:54

of volatility and uncertainty in the economy

34:56

and in our everyday lives and like

34:58

it behoves us really to figure out

35:01

how are we going to address entitlement

35:03

issues how are we going to make

35:05

it easier for people to get housing

35:08

whether they're renting or owning and you

35:10

know how how do we unleash market

35:12

forces that have made this you know

35:14

TV super great and cheap How do

35:17

we bring that to health care and

35:19

education and every other thing that we

35:21

care about? And of course government keeps

35:24

the prices high through all their... Yeah.

35:26

Yeah. So, Trump, I want to get

35:28

your take on... Do you know what

35:30

I said about Anthony Wiener? Yeah. As

35:33

a New Yorker, as a gain of

35:35

function New Yorkers, I was Donald Trump,

35:37

right? He is like, he's a cartoon

35:40

version. I think he's worse than those

35:42

of us who were not Trump apocalypse

35:44

predictors thought he would be. Obviously... Are

35:47

you moving to Canada? No, I'm not

35:49

moving to Canada. All of the Yale

35:51

faculty? No. We really don't know how

35:53

it's all going to play out. You

35:56

know, my daughter's in eighth grade and

35:58

quite often the entire administration... not often

36:00

always of a previous president gets

36:02

reduced down to three or four bullet

36:05

points that she has to memorize you

36:07

know and it's interesting because you could

36:09

imagine you know there's so many things

36:11

every day there's this story there's this

36:14

guy who's deported by mistake and you

36:16

you don't really and you wonder okay

36:18

but when it's all said and done

36:21

and we're ten years down the line what

36:23

will be the bullet points because that

36:25

and and will those bullet points make

36:27

it all worthwhile better than the Kamala

36:29

Harris bullet points with him or with...

36:32

I mean, I think so. I, you

36:34

know, I, or, you know, let's, let's

36:36

speculate what those bullet points. So, you

36:38

know, Trump, his first term bullet points

36:40

would have been pretty good. Very good.

36:42

Where it's like, you know, he brokered

36:45

the Abraham Accords, he, uh... He oversaw

36:47

a growing economy and the Trump court

36:49

got rid of racial preferences. Yeah, he

36:51

supercharged, you know, the COVID vaccine production

36:53

and stuff like that. Yeah, he doesn't

36:55

want to admit that, but I don't

36:58

know. That's a really interesting question. But

37:00

that's really the heart of the matter. Yeah.

37:02

Otherwise, you get caught up in the hysterics

37:04

of all of it. And they're valid.

37:06

I mean, he's the idea that somebody... Now

37:08

I read into it yesterday for the first

37:11

time, I was, oh, well, well, this

37:13

guy actually might have actually might have been...

37:15

It actually looks like this guy was

37:17

a gang member, but that really doesn't

37:20

matter. It doesn't. It doesn't matter to

37:22

the principle of government by shitshell. And

37:24

if this guy, if they got lucky

37:26

enough that this guy actually deserved it,

37:28

that does not sanitize the procedure as

37:31

being reckless and a violation of his

37:33

liberties, even if he's guilty. Yeah, I

37:35

mean, and he did have a valid

37:37

order where he could not be deported.

37:40

Yeah. So, you know, and then people

37:42

can argue about that. But that's also,

37:44

you know, it was everything. Yeah. And

37:46

taking a step back, you know, the

37:48

rhetoric that, oh, we are undergoing a

37:50

invasion, you know, by MS-13 and by

37:52

Mexicans and by Indians and by Indians

37:55

and by people who want to come

37:57

here and live here, you know, that's

37:59

wrong. There isn't. crime there isn't a

38:01

crime wave associated with immigration the reason

38:03

we have more illegal immigration than legal

38:05

immigration at times is because it's impossible

38:07

to move here legally I mean we

38:10

I we definitely want to get gang

38:12

members out yeah of course absolutely fair

38:14

and orderly and we want the border

38:16

to be secured which you know Trump

38:18

and actually Biden in his last six

38:21

months was doing you know this is

38:23

this is all to the good and

38:25

so I'm not apocalyptic about Trump but

38:27

You know, this is one of the

38:30

benefits and maybe this is also one

38:32

of the limits of being a libertarian.

38:34

Like, I, you know, every president, it

38:36

is this mix of things where it's

38:38

like, you know, George W. Bush was

38:40

not completely terrible, but he was terrible

38:43

on civil liberties. He was terrible on

38:45

foreign policy. He was terrible on spending,

38:47

you know, things like that, you know,

38:49

Obama. not terrible on everything but he

38:51

was he was worse than Bush in

38:54

a lot of ways and and you

38:56

know Trump was worse than Obama in

38:58

a lot of ways and Biden was

39:00

worse than Trump so it's kind of

39:02

a perpetual cycle and I don't think

39:05

one of the things that bugs me

39:07

is the idea that you know we're

39:09

not supposed to be critical of

39:11

the president you know this drives

39:13

me nuts and or Anthony Wiener

39:15

Yeah, well, yeah, you know, well,

39:17

I don't have to vote for

39:19

Anthony Wiener. And I don't have

39:21

to, I don't have to, I

39:23

don't have to live under his

39:25

foot. Yeah, what about, even on,

39:27

you know, even on Ukraine, I'm

39:29

optimistic that the outcome with Trump

39:32

will be better than it would

39:34

have been on to Harris, which just

39:36

seemed to be a policy that was

39:38

just, you know, floating in the wind,

39:41

it had no goal. It had, it

39:43

had no goal. I mean, I worry,

39:45

you know, with Trump and foreign

39:47

policy, and this is saying a

39:49

lot because we're coming off of

39:52

a quarter century of just terrible

39:54

foreign policy. I guess he was

39:56

involved in some of that. It's

39:58

not clear, you know. people may

40:00

remember that during the Bush years people like

40:02

it was a big gotcha question like whenever

40:05

anybody was on a talk show they'd always

40:07

be like well do you agree with the

40:09

Bush doctrine and people would be like yes

40:12

I do and then like well what is

40:14

it and nobody could define it even though

40:16

he you know was you know he was

40:18

like launching major wars and we had a

40:21

Charles Krauthammer term I think the Bush doctor

40:23

yeah and it was like it It wasn't

40:25

clear, and I can remember reading articles, like

40:27

actually there's three Bush doctrines and all of

40:30

this type of stuff, but we, you know,

40:32

it's good to have basic principles that

40:34

are thought through, that are debated, articulated,

40:36

and then actually govern how we do

40:39

things. And, you know, I don't think

40:41

we had that under Bush. We definitely

40:43

didn't have it under Obama who appeared,

40:45

you know, who didn't run as an

40:48

anti-war candidate, but was perceived as such

40:50

and did nothing to... you know, change

40:52

that thinking. And then he was kind

40:54

of a warmonger when he was in

40:57

office. And then Trump, it's not clear,

40:59

you know, what, you know, what is

41:01

his governing principles? Because there's something sickening

41:04

when he's telling a country that was invaded,

41:06

you know, that you are the problem and

41:08

that, you know, you know, if you don't

41:10

kiss my ass right now, like I'm gonna

41:13

say, you know, go straight ahead, you

41:15

know, Putin and go in. Having

41:17

said that, you know, and then

41:19

his position on Israel is different

41:21

and it's kind of obscure. And,

41:24

you know, but what is Trump's,

41:26

you know, set of basic coordinates

41:28

that he uses to determine foreign

41:31

policy? It's not clear. But just

41:33

to agree with you, I mean,

41:35

you know, it's better. I think

41:37

it's better than Biden, you know, where...

41:40

Whatever Biden was doing, he was

41:42

spending a lot, but then also

41:44

telling people you could do this,

41:46

but not this. And like he

41:48

was simultaneously giving a lot of

41:50

money and micromanaging or being kind

41:52

of vacant. So. Yeah, and I mean,

41:55

bogged down it, but obviously there were

41:57

certain kind of optimism early on in

41:59

the war. or that, you know, they

42:01

might just do this and maybe

42:03

the progression is gonna get rid

42:05

of puna, maybe has pancreatic cancer,

42:07

so there was reasons, but I

42:09

don't think anybody thinks that Ukraine

42:11

is gonna expel Russia from the

42:13

Donbas anymore, and if that's the

42:15

case, then time may be on

42:17

Russia's side. Like, you know, they

42:19

dick around for another two years,

42:22

Russia might roll into Kiev, so.

42:24

And it was, I think we

42:26

all breathed a sigh of relief

42:28

to hear Trump actually say out

42:30

loud that he's pissed off at

42:32

Vladimir Putin. So that we hope

42:34

you try to divine where Trump's

42:36

coming from. I'm much, much more

42:38

off-put and scared of JD Vance

42:40

and this post- trump, magga, motley

42:42

crew of nuts. I see them

42:44

as nuts. People who praise Alex

42:46

Jones and whatever it is. And,

42:48

you know, Trump's 78 years old.

42:50

It's not like crazy to think...

42:52

advance could be president even in

42:54

this term yeah how do you

42:56

feel about this guy you know

42:58

it's a this you you would

43:00

mention earlier on that you don't

43:02

like Elon Musk right I'm kind

43:04

of I have a better opinion

43:06

of musk than I do advance

43:08

yeah well what I was going

43:10

to say that you know what's

43:12

interesting and I think you know

43:14

the doge project is a good

43:16

idea and I don't like the

43:18

way it's being executed and my

43:20

colleague Matt Welch has talked about

43:22

this in other context of you

43:25

know when when Something gets going,

43:27

like you don't have the ability

43:29

to try a bunch of different

43:31

things to see what works, like

43:33

in terms of cutting government or

43:35

whatever, like the moment happens, and

43:37

then like if your first cut

43:39

is going to be what you

43:41

get, like your first take, and

43:43

I think they're doing it wrong

43:45

in a way that's going to

43:47

discredit the idea of like cutting

43:49

government for a long time, and

43:51

that bothers me a lot. But

43:53

on another level, you know, within

43:55

Trump world. Elon Musk does, you

43:57

know, he he earlier, I guess

43:59

late last year and earlier this

44:01

year, he was talking about being

44:03

in favor of high wage or

44:05

high skilled. immigration and that he

44:07

would fight the magga people including

44:09

JD Vance on that. Yeah and

44:11

you know it worries me because

44:13

you know everybody there's a flurry

44:15

of stories and I suspect there's

44:17

some truth to it that he's

44:19

going to be leaving the White

44:21

House you know the the sphere

44:23

of influence pretty soon and if

44:25

Trump becomes fully just magga all

44:28

the way and there is no

44:30

kind of... people on you know

44:32

there who are saying you know

44:34

what maybe we need to be

44:36

more economically minded maybe we need

44:38

to be the thing about immigration

44:40

and other you know pulling back

44:42

from the strict magga world I

44:44

think that's very disturbing scares the

44:46

shit out of me I mean

44:48

by the Trump has always been

44:50

for these H1B visas this isn't

44:52

this is a issue that he

44:54

championed in 2015 yeah I remember

44:56

hearing him arguing with banning about

44:58

it one thing about the mics

45:00

yeah yeah he doesn't changes positions

45:02

that he's, you know, like he's,

45:04

so I think he'll stick by

45:06

it. But this, uh, may as

45:08

well, last thing we'll talk about

45:10

the new respect that all these

45:12

conspiracy theorists have in that world,

45:14

that Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones

45:16

and who, whoever else there is,

45:18

seemed to have the president's ear

45:20

and they have Vance's ear and

45:22

then Cash Patel and, uh, you

45:24

know all these various knucklehead appointees

45:26

Matt Gates who didn't you know

45:28

they got to be pissed right

45:30

now you might be a fan

45:33

of Tulsa I don't know because

45:35

I know if you have share

45:37

her politics yeah no you know

45:39

but to me she's a flake

45:41

even if I agree with her

45:43

on some things you know yeah

45:45

I mean it's it's odd because

45:47

she you know everybody's a critic

45:49

of the deep state and then

45:51

when you start running it like

45:53

you start to find reasons to

45:55

keep it or to do certain

45:57

things at all that all that

45:59

but Yeah, I share your concerns

46:01

about a lot of this stuff

46:03

because the conspiracy theory world and

46:05

you know there's a left-wing version

46:07

of it, but it's not in

46:09

power right now. It's disturbing because

46:11

I don't know, you know, I

46:13

don't know how you know, I

46:15

don't know how you engage. It

46:17

mixes with Ukraine because, all right,

46:19

Trump, you know, seems to want

46:21

to impose a settlement, a kind

46:23

of common sense way, you know,

46:25

where Vance hates Zolenski. Yeah. He

46:27

hates somebody. The guy's done something

46:29

wrong. Yeah. The guy's done anything

46:31

wrong. He was invaded. They prep

46:33

there's the landscape. I mean, it's

46:36

the landscape because he's Jewish. They

46:38

come out and say it. And

46:40

then there's the classic trope of

46:42

where Zelenski is Jewish and he's

46:44

really a Nazi. Yes. You know,

46:46

he's a Bolshevik they call. That's

46:48

right. And Tucker Carlson will, you

46:50

know, talk about me rat-like and

46:52

sweaty and then Glenn Greenwall will

46:54

talk, they'll talk about how our

46:56

support for Ukraine is really about

46:58

Israel. So this is all very

47:00

ominous to me. I kind of

47:02

trust Trump on this stuff. Why

47:04

in the world do they hate

47:06

Salenski like this? What is it's

47:08

psychotic? Yeah, they hate him. I

47:10

don't know. How could you please

47:12

them by just rolling over and

47:14

let the Russians in? Yeah, and

47:16

this is the whole, you know,

47:18

thing too is that like it's

47:20

one thing to be against America,

47:22

you know, giving aid much less

47:24

troops or anything. to Ukraine. That's

47:26

on us, not on Salinsky. Yeah,

47:28

and I mean he's asking for,

47:30

you know, help and things like

47:32

that. And I think, you know,

47:34

he's made mistakes in all of

47:36

that, but it is a, it's

47:39

a very strange position where you're

47:41

basically arguing, you know, that this

47:43

guy who... Really rose to the

47:45

occasion. I mean, I'm regardless of

47:47

ideology in a lot of ways

47:49

because Yeltsin was like this too

47:51

where You know, he rose to

47:53

his moment in history and then

47:55

couldn't sustain it And I you

47:57

know that we have reverberations of

47:59

that, but it's kind of amazing

48:01

and when you know Zalenski, you

48:03

know, who who's the what it's

48:05

the equivalent George Lopez? Very somebody,

48:07

you know, like a sitcom comedian,

48:09

you know, Jerry sign you know,

48:11

becoming like a meaningful leader. It's

48:13

very strange. What was that Russian

48:15

comics name? Oh, Yakov Smirnoff. Yeah,

48:17

who has a very good podcast

48:19

now. Does he? Yeah, he, I

48:21

don't know if he's still there,

48:23

if he does it from there,

48:25

but he moved to Branson, Missouri,

48:27

and had a regular show there.

48:29

He's very patriotic American, right? Yeah,

48:31

yeah, yeah. Breeze in Foundation, the

48:33

non-profit that published the magazine actually

48:35

gave him an award sometime in

48:37

like the 80, or like the

48:39

80s, or very early early early

48:42

90s. That is a, I don't

48:44

know where he is on, you

48:46

know, the Ukraine, Russia split, because

48:48

you never know, you know, when

48:50

people who left the Soviet Union,

48:52

they have odd allegiances. Now before

48:54

we go, because, you know, I'm

48:56

always feuding with Dave Smith, who

48:58

was supposedly a libertarian. Yeah. Can

49:00

you explain the split between the

49:02

Gillespie wing and the Smith wing

49:04

of the libertarian movement? Yeah, that's

49:06

a good question. Because I agree

49:08

with you guys so much, and

49:10

I think everything they say is

49:12

out to lunch. Yeah, you know,

49:14

it's, without going into details too

49:16

much, part of it is the

49:18

difference between somebody like Friedrich Hayek

49:20

as a thinker or organizing principal

49:22

and Murray Rothbard. Murray Rothbard is

49:24

a very influential. at the groups

49:26

that Dave, you know, is particularly

49:28

at home with, like the Mises

49:30

Institute. And Rothbard was an anarcho

49:32

capitalist and he through a lot

49:34

of complicated kind of thinking about

49:36

stuff. He's an anarcho-capitalist, but then

49:38

ended up rolling for a time

49:40

with David Duke or, you know,

49:42

being very interested in the kind

49:45

of populist right in the, you

49:47

know, years ago and then, I

49:49

mean, Rothward's been dead for a

49:51

while, but his followers are kind

49:53

of interesting. in that and you

49:55

know and that immigration is somehow

49:57

you know we shouldn't have any

49:59

government but we should have like

50:01

a really strict order until all

50:03

property is privately owned so but

50:05

and there's I to put it

50:07

more bluntly, and I don't mean

50:09

this pejoratively, like I mean this

50:11

descriptively, but I think part of

50:13

it is also, it's dispositional, and

50:15

a lot of libertarians are, I

50:17

hate to use the word cosmopolitan

50:19

because that gets used as an

50:21

invective against me, but you know,

50:23

some people like living in kind

50:25

of sloppy, heterodox places where all

50:27

sorts of weird shit and weird

50:29

people happen. right and you know

50:31

and it's you know it's and

50:33

and then some people don't some

50:35

people like living in in you

50:37

know more hierarchical and more monocultural

50:39

places you know and that could

50:41

be ethnic ethnically it could be

50:43

class it could be all sorts

50:45

of things or people who believe

50:47

the same thing and that's a

50:50

big split in the broad libertarian

50:52

movement okay but so just like

50:54

if you're about liberty and liberty

50:56

is what moves you your heart

50:58

It swells to the sultry strains

51:00

of liberty, whatever it is. Then

51:02

Ukraine, you would think, would be

51:04

something that you would support. Here

51:06

is a country about to be

51:08

overrun by a tyrannical dictator, and

51:10

they're fighting for their freedom. They

51:12

may not be a perfect democracy,

51:14

but certainly their future is brighter

51:16

under the Ukrainian government than it

51:18

is going to be. So, but

51:20

their instinct is vehemently in the

51:22

other direction. I mean, what's going

51:24

on here? Is this, why would

51:26

a libertarian movement ever speak this

51:28

way about a people fighting for

51:30

their freedom? Yeah, I don't understand

51:32

that. You know, and again, I'm

51:34

not committed to American troops being

51:36

in Ukraine and I'm, you know,

51:38

I think we need a good

51:40

accounting of all the aid that

51:42

we give and in general. against

51:44

foreign aid, but yeah, when you

51:46

look at the optics of the

51:48

picture where there is, you know,

51:50

where there's a David and a

51:53

Goliath, you would think that most

51:55

libertarians are always going to be

51:57

on the side of the David.

51:59

And, you know, that... matters. And

52:01

it's also, you know, this, Tucker

52:03

Carlson went through a libertarian phase.

52:05

I mean, he was an adjunct

52:07

scholar at the Cato Institute in

52:09

D.C. shortly before he formed the

52:11

Daily caller. And I have an

52:13

old, I used to do a

52:15

reason talk show with Michael Moynihan

52:17

when he worked at Reason. And

52:19

we had an episode where Tucker

52:21

was on and he was talking

52:23

in ways. It's like you would

52:25

not recognize the same person because

52:27

he was anti-government and he was...

52:29

Yeah, he was very libertarian and

52:31

you know to see him going

52:33

to Russia and doing a kind

52:35

of, you know, reverse minstrel show

52:37

of Paul Robeson or like, you

52:39

know, a black leftist in Stalin's

52:41

Moscow, you know, and talk about

52:43

how great the supermarkets are and

52:45

the subways and all of that.

52:47

It's very peculiar. And I think

52:49

some of it is, and again,

52:51

I don't know that this is,

52:53

you know, particularly libertarian, but there's,

52:56

you know, some people like tradition

52:58

and hierarchy and hierarchy. clarity in

53:00

social relations. You know, a man

53:02

is a man and a woman

53:04

is a woman and we don't,

53:06

you know, and gays are problematic

53:08

because they don't, you know, they

53:10

don't fit into categories and things

53:12

like that. And then other people

53:14

are like, you know, whatever, you

53:16

know, do whatever you want and,

53:18

you know, as long as you're

53:20

not hurting somebody. And they have

53:22

this urge. Now, of course, it's

53:24

always very, very, very hard. It's

53:26

the unanswerable question in a certain.

53:28

dying and that it was worth

53:30

it for those lives to be

53:32

lost in order to fight for

53:34

a certain way of life. Yeah.

53:36

Is it better to have them

53:38

be slaves or is it better

53:40

to support the war? or 30,000

53:42

innocent people will die, but will

53:44

end slavery. These are, you know,

53:46

very, very tough questions, right? But

53:48

you would think that the libertarian

53:50

somehow would have a tougher time

53:52

with that question because they value

53:54

liberty. And then, of course, you

53:56

know, there seems to be, I

53:59

don't see the libertarianism at all

54:01

on what they're saying, and then

54:03

just, you know, my pet peeve

54:05

is if this notion that, let's

54:07

say you accept all their arguments

54:09

that Putin was... provoked by whatever

54:11

nonsense there is. An offhand comment

54:13

by Baker, and to the extent

54:15

that you think that his, the

54:17

non-pretextual part of his concerns about

54:19

whatever is going on in Ukraine

54:21

and provocations from ethnic rushes, whatever

54:23

it is. So he was provoked

54:25

and therefore he had no choice

54:27

but to go into Ukraine and

54:29

now he should be entitled to

54:31

keep 20% of the country. Okay,

54:33

fine. Let's come, now that, so

54:35

that's your kind of principles, okay.

54:37

Now let's take those principles and

54:39

use them to examine another chapter.

54:41

Let's look at the 1967 situation

54:43

that Israel was in. Egypt puts

54:45

100,000 troops on the borders, removes

54:47

the UN peacekeepers, has a blockade,

54:49

has genocidal rhetoric. Egypt, Israel is

54:51

provoked. They take out the Egyptian

54:53

army. They didn't, and then Jordan

54:55

attacks, that's more than provoked, and

54:57

they take this land. These same

54:59

people say, no, not one square

55:01

inch should Israel be able to

55:04

keep. Not one inch, I don't

55:06

care if you were provoked. Or

55:08

they'll say, you weren't provoked, you

55:10

had a choice, they'll say, of

55:12

course they had a choice. They

55:14

had less of a choice than

55:16

Putin did, right? So, unless there's

55:18

something I'm missing, or on being

55:20

unfair, which you know I don't

55:22

like to be, I'm calling bullshit

55:24

on the whole point of view.

55:26

You know, I, and I'm yet

55:28

to hear someone push back. I

55:30

mean, this is what you're missing

55:32

now. Well, I'm not, you know,

55:34

I, you know, my libertarianism, I

55:36

think is, you know, it's pretty

55:38

open and forthright. So I mean,

55:40

I stand for what I stand

55:42

for. You want to, I mean,

55:44

I said in a conversation with

55:46

the people we're going to have

55:48

dinner with us. Everybody's entitled to

55:50

due process. Even if in my

55:52

opinion, even if it's not a

55:54

constitutional requirement. It's basic fairness and

55:56

morality that people should be treated

55:58

fairly when they can be. People

56:00

should not suffer consequences without some

56:02

procedure that allows them to state

56:04

their case. I don't have to

56:07

give my employees due process. I

56:09

can say to my employee, you

56:11

know what, I think you were

56:13

stealing. You're out. But I don't

56:15

do that. I say, listen, I

56:17

think you were stealing. What do

56:19

you have to say for yourself?

56:21

Listen to here, here's a witness.

56:23

I embark on that because it's...

56:25

Well, it's so these immigrants... He

56:27

doesn't deserve due process. He's hearing

56:29

hugely worse, too. I mean, you

56:31

know, business owners are one thing,

56:33

but when it's the government, you

56:35

know, they have... Yes, of course.

56:37

I stand to believe a monopoly

56:39

on force, so they do... They're

56:41

held to a higher standard, you

56:43

know, because you can't... you can

56:45

fire somebody that can get a

56:47

job somewhere else if you're running

56:49

the government and you put somebody

56:51

away or do the same thing

56:53

by i don't think business should

56:55

have the requirement i'm saying but

56:57

yeah what when when it's not

56:59

to onerous a burden on me

57:01

i will reserve the right to

57:03

say listen i don't trust it

57:05

you got to go well you

57:07

know here but this is where

57:10

i really the libertarian point of

57:12

view in general really moves me

57:14

because it's it's it's a respect

57:16

for people and for fairness And

57:18

for freedom in a way. Yeah.

57:20

Well, I think whenever you can

57:22

find it. One of the, you

57:24

know, kind of paradoxes of the

57:26

current moment or of, you know,

57:28

certainly of the past 25 years,

57:30

I'm really starting to see, you

57:32

know, the 21st century, like it's

57:34

worth talking about it because a

57:36

lot of negative trends accelerated some

57:38

positive things. during it. But you

57:40

know this concept that we've lost

57:42

so much trust and confidence in

57:44

government and I think we've done

57:46

that rightly because government has acted

57:48

poorly you know they you know

57:50

in the first Gulf or not

57:52

the first Gulf War in the

57:54

Iraq war and you know throughout

57:56

the war on terror our government

57:58

just lied to us they lied

58:00

about what they were doing and

58:02

they also lied about how much

58:04

it costs and what they how

58:06

they were spending money. You know,

58:08

they lied about the financial crisis,

58:10

the causes of it, and the

58:13

remedies to it. They lied about

58:15

COVID in all sorts of ways

58:17

and made a lot of stoop.

58:19

You know, we have every reason

58:21

to have less trust and confidence

58:23

in government. And from a libertarian

58:25

perspective, superficially, that's like a good

58:27

thing because once people don't trust

58:29

the government, they're going to, you

58:31

know, say we want less of

58:33

it. But that isn't the way

58:35

it works. And ironically, and I

58:37

wrote a story about this a

58:39

few years ago, a few years

58:41

ago, you know, semi-controversial within libertarian

58:43

circles, whereas saying, you know, we've

58:45

won that idea, that argument of

58:47

the idea that you shouldn't trust

58:49

the government because it is incompetent

58:51

at best and kind of malevolent

58:53

at worst. But that doesn't lead

58:55

to less government. It actually leads

58:57

predictably around the world to people

58:59

wanting more like a strong man

59:01

or strong governments that can, you

59:03

know, stop the chaos. And I

59:05

feel like this is what's happening.

59:07

under Trump, you know, he came

59:09

in and he said, I'm going

59:11

to destroy the deep set, I'm

59:13

going to get rid of all

59:15

of these administrative bureaucrats who are

59:18

just doing whatever they want without

59:20

any restraint. And he's modeling that

59:22

now in a lot of ways.

59:24

And so, you know, it isn't

59:26

going, you're not going to change

59:28

direction by doing more. more and

59:30

better of what you're combating. And

59:32

ironically, I think, you know, libertarians

59:34

would do well in this, I'm

59:36

in a minority position in the

59:38

libertarian movement because I'm not an

59:40

anarchist in this sense, but like,

59:42

we need to, you know, show

59:44

where government legitimately has an interest

59:46

and how it can be effective

59:48

and efficient. And I actually think

59:50

once people understand that can happen

59:52

they will vote you know they'll

59:54

vote for less government this happened

59:56

in the 90s throughout the 90s

59:58

at the state and federal level

1:00:00

as the government started doing less

1:00:02

things and it did them more

1:00:04

effectively you know the the burden

1:00:06

of government shifted so you know

1:00:08

we have a lot of work

1:00:10

to do and Trump is a

1:00:12

shame right because he came into

1:00:14

office now and he's got such

1:00:16

a cult-like power Yeah, that he

1:00:18

could have literally chosen, you know,

1:00:21

any subtle direction to go in,

1:00:23

and the country would have come

1:00:25

along. It also remains to be

1:00:27

seen, you're right, that he is

1:00:29

remarkably consistent in many of his

1:00:31

beliefs. I mean, he changes them

1:00:33

because like when he first ran,

1:00:35

he was anti-bit coin. and now

1:00:37

he's kind of like pro-bit coin

1:00:39

and certainly crypto etc. Those are

1:00:41

not his deeply helpful yet. But

1:00:43

you're right that he's pretty predictable

1:00:45

but the other thing to remember

1:00:47

you know it's weird because this

1:00:49

is his second term so he's

1:00:51

kind of a lame duck already

1:00:53

but then you know he as

1:00:55

he approaches the midterms he's going

1:00:57

to be very lame duck but

1:00:59

what's going to say you know

1:01:01

when you look at somebody like

1:01:03

Ronald Reagan at this point in

1:01:05

his first term. he was a

1:01:07

complete disaster. Like, you know, he

1:01:09

got what he wanted and things

1:01:11

went really poorly. And then by,

1:01:13

you know, by 1984, he was

1:01:15

about to win 49 states and

1:01:17

probably 50. I think they gave

1:01:19

him, they gave Walter Mondale, Minnesota

1:01:21

to, you know, so he wasn't

1:01:24

completely humiliated. But, so things can

1:01:26

change pretty quickly. And Trump is

1:01:28

probably adaptable. And like, as the

1:01:30

tariffs go into place and the,

1:01:32

you know, if the economy tanks,

1:01:34

he can't. he can't live with

1:01:36

that now and he'll start to

1:01:38

change that i i agree with

1:01:40

it he more than anything he

1:01:42

wants to be popular and actually

1:01:44

i think he wants the country

1:01:46

to do well and of course

1:01:48

i mean you know i i

1:01:50

i don't i don't know people

1:01:52

have this horrible impression of the

1:01:54

guy i think he's more complicated

1:01:56

than that but i don't think

1:01:58

or and it's not I mean,

1:02:00

all, you know, I think Biden,

1:02:02

you know, to the extent that

1:02:04

he had anything going on at

1:02:06

the end, like he didn't want

1:02:08

to leave office being a bum,

1:02:10

right? You know, and it's an

1:02:12

interesting point. I hope somebody close

1:02:14

to Trump is saying, like, what

1:02:16

are the three bullet points you

1:02:18

want people to remember? And it's

1:02:20

not going to be, I deported,

1:02:22

they all want the country to

1:02:24

do well. But I think

1:02:27

the country a picture of a country

1:02:29

doing well according to Donald Trump In

1:02:31

many ways would be closer to what

1:02:33

you and I would think of than

1:02:36

what Joe Biden Who knows what a

1:02:38

left-wing? Democratic vision of the country doing

1:02:40

well is it's certainly not I don't

1:02:42

even know if they even business even

1:02:45

occurs to them free speech occurs to

1:02:47

them Yeah, I mean Trump on free

1:02:49

speech is really incredibly bad. You know,

1:02:52

and he had an executive order that

1:02:54

was great where he basically said, you

1:02:56

know, this Biden era, a jaw-boning of

1:02:58

social media and actually leaning on people,

1:03:01

that's done, which is good, but then

1:03:03

he's, you know, going after people for

1:03:05

all sorts of things, and he has

1:03:07

an FCC, you know, who is... you

1:03:10

know going after networks and programs for

1:03:12

the way they edit videos and you

1:03:14

know this is insanity I mean it's

1:03:16

like where they edit videos about him

1:03:19

yeah yeah yeah in an ironic listen

1:03:21

the guy is so thin-skinned and he

1:03:23

makes a fool of himself yeah but

1:03:25

I don't see any anti-free speech movement

1:03:28

coming out of his movement, they're the

1:03:30

free speech people, even if he's a

1:03:32

disgraceful guy. And I don't like the

1:03:35

way they're going out to the universe,

1:03:37

I'm sure we agree. Yeah, you know,

1:03:39

and it's one thing to cut... Let

1:03:41

the people protest for Hamas. Yeah, it's

1:03:44

one thing to cut, you know, money,

1:03:46

and it's one thing to cut, you

1:03:48

know, even funding for research, because there

1:03:50

are ways around that, but to, you

1:03:53

know, be going after people because of

1:03:55

the things they say... I don't think

1:03:57

writing editorials in a student newspaper is

1:03:59

an incitement to violence. Is it for

1:04:02

what they're saying or are they falling

1:04:04

under things like inciting violence or harassing

1:04:06

people? I don't know. I mean, it's,

1:04:08

you know, and the idea. Well, it's

1:04:11

not what they're saying. I mean, it's

1:04:13

what. I don't show anything the Trump

1:04:15

administration is saying. Sure. just like the

1:04:17

pardons. I'm totally persuadable about almost anything.

1:04:20

Be a professional, write a document, present

1:04:22

it to the American people, this guy's

1:04:24

pardon for this, this, and this reason,

1:04:27

this person being deported, he did this,

1:04:29

this, and that, have it ready to

1:04:31

present to the people at the time

1:04:33

he deported him. Sure, I'm, I'm, I'm,

1:04:36

yeah. But they don't do that. Yeah.

1:04:38

They, they, they put the cart before

1:04:40

the horse and throw him out. Can

1:04:42

I, you know, I mean, I mean,

1:04:45

I mean, I mean, I mean, I

1:04:47

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean,

1:04:49

I, I mean, I, I, I, I,

1:04:51

I, I mean, I, Hopefully this will

1:04:54

be the legacy of Donald Trump is

1:04:56

that he will have made him if

1:04:58

he makes America more like New York.

1:05:00

I think that would be a good

1:05:03

thing because what's great about New York,

1:05:05

everybody disagrees and you know there's a

1:05:07

ton of different types of people living

1:05:10

different kinds of lives here and it

1:05:12

all kind of works. And like to

1:05:14

me... That's my vision of America. It

1:05:16

is, you know, it is like, you

1:05:19

know, it is the Lower East Side.

1:05:21

It is Greenwich Village, you know, it's

1:05:23

Hell's Kitchen, and it's just people doing

1:05:25

what they want to do to make

1:05:28

their lives interesting and express themselves and

1:05:30

make money. And, you know, in a

1:05:32

way, you're right, I think Trump... Trump

1:05:34

understands that kind of on a cellular

1:05:37

level even if he doesn't know how

1:05:39

to articulate it and often works against

1:05:41

that and I think a lot of

1:05:43

the people around him don't share that.

1:05:46

They're very uncomfortable with that kind of

1:05:48

thriving hub of you know just weirdness

1:05:50

of individualism and weirdness and that worries

1:05:53

me. We gotta go. Are you coming

1:05:55

to take a cab with me? I

1:05:57

guess I have to. Maybe a walk.

1:05:59

Thank you very much

1:06:02

as always, Nick

1:06:04

Gillespie, Reason magazine, free free

1:06:06

markets, free markets, and free everything.

1:06:08

Bye everybody. Bye Free

1:06:11

sex. Free Mumia.